Russian lawmakers pass anti-gay bill in 436-0 vote
MOSCOW (AP) — A bill that stigmatizes gay people and bans giving children any information about homosexuality won overwhelming approval Tuesday in Russia's lower house of parliament.
Hours before the State Duma passed the Kremlin-backed law in a 436-0 vote with one abstention, more than two dozen protesters were attacked by hundreds of anti-gay activists and then detained by police.
The bill banning the "propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations" still needs to be passed by the appointed upper house and signed into law by President Vladimir Putin, but neither step is in doubt.
The measure is part of an effort to promote traditional Russian values instead of Western liberalism, which the Kremlin and the Russian Orthodox Church see as corrupting Russian youth and contributing to the protests against Putin's rule.
The only parliament member to abstain Tuesday was Ilya Ponomaryov, who has supported anti-Putin protesters despite belonging to a pro-Kremlin party.
A widespread hostility to homosexuality is shared by much of Russia's political and religious elite. Lawmakers have accused gays of decreasing Russia's already low birth rates and said they should be barred from government jobs, undergo forced medical treatment or be exiled.
The State Duma passed another bill on Tuesday that makes offending religious feelings a crime punishable by up to three years in prison. The legislation, which passed 308-2, was introduced last year after three members of the Pussy Riot punk group were convicted of "hooliganism motivated by religious hatred" for an impromptu anti-Putin protest inside Moscow's main cathedral and given two-year sentences.
Both bills drew condemnation from Amnesty International.
"They represent a sorry attempt by the government to bolster its popularity by pandering to the most reactionary elements of Russian society — at the expense of fundamental rights and the expression of individual identities," John Dalhuisen, the human rights group's Europe and Central Asia program director, said in a statement.
Before the anti-gay vote, rights activists attempted to hold a "kissing rally" outside the State Duma, located across the street from Red Square in central Moscow, but they were attacked by hundreds of Orthodox Christian activists and members of pro-Kremlin youth groups. The mostly burly young men with closely cropped hair pelted the activists with eggs, shouting obscenities and homophobic slurs at them.
Riot police moved in, detaining more than two dozen protesters, almost all of them gay rights activists. Some who were not detained were beaten by masked men on another central street.
The legislation will impose hefty fines for providing information about the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) community to minors or holding gay pride rallies. Those breaking the law will be fined up to 5,000 rubles ($156) for an individual and up to 1 million rubles ($31,000) for a company, including media organizations.
Foreign citizens arrested under the new law can be deported or jailed for up to 15 days and then deported. European gay rights activists have joined Russians in trying to hold gay pride rallies in Moscow in recent years.
Russia decriminalized homosexuality in 1993, but anti-gay sentiment remains high. Russia also is considering banning citizens of countries that allow same-sex marriage from adopting Russian children.
Earlier Tuesday, dozens of anti-gay activists picketed the Duma. One of them held a poster that read: "Lawmakers, protect the people from perverts!" while others held Orthodox icons and chanted prayers.
Russian and foreign rights activists have decried the bill as violating basic rights.
"Russia is trying very hard to make discrimination look respectable by calling it 'tradition,' but whatever term is used in the bill, it remains discrimination and a violation of the basic human rights of LGBT people," Graeme Reid, the LGBT rights program director at Human Rights Watch, said Tuesday in a statement.
Lyudmila Alexeyeva, one of Russia's oldest and most prominent rights activists, called the law "a step toward the Middle Ages."
"In normal countries, no one persecutes representatives of sexual minorities," Alexeyeva told the Interfax news agency. "A modern person knows that these people are different from the rest just like a brunette is different from a blonde. They are not guilty of anything."
Russian officials have rejected the criticism. Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov defended the bill in February, saying that Russia doesn't have any international or European commitment to "allow the propaganda of homosexuality."
An executive with a Russian government-run television network said in a nationally televised talk show that gays should be prohibited from donating blood, sperm or organs for transplants, and after their deaths their hearts should be burned or buried.
The bill's adoption comes 20 years after a Stalinist-era law punishing homosexuality with up to five years in prison was removed from Russia's penal code as part of democratic reforms that followed the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union.
I'm guessing this thread will not devolve into hateful racial epithets.
[quote]A disturbing photo from Reuters of the conflict in Moscow over the imminent passage of the ban on "gay propaganda" shows an activist being kicked on the ground by Russian schoolboys.
I really feel bad for the LGBT community there.
Poor girl getting kicked around by some brats. :(
Russia is a nation thugs and criminals.
And they still wonder why Nureyev defected.
Who will sell to me make-up at Clinique counter?
Russians are unspeakably crass. Vile.
Yeah, run by thugs. Too many thugs. Feel bad for the sensitive people there.
Told you we were hardcore.
Russia has always been backwards. They seem bound and determined to stay that way. Peter I and Catherine II tried to hurdle them out of the Dark Ages but a monarch can only do so much.
Well that's just fucking awful.
R7, please remind me of that again - that was a favorite. "Take black card" or something, right?
I fear that Miss Russia will never ever win Miss Universe again.
Am I the only one creeped out at how backwards Russia is? This is really scary. Why don't the gay people there speak up?
Because Putin will have them killed. He must be a fag, there's no other possible explanation.
Because it's getting them jailed and beat up, R15. They don't have the protections we have here. (Such as they are)
Tennis player Marat Safin is now in the Russian Parliament. As a player, he always gave the impression of a fun, liberal guy and THIS is what he gets up to post-tennis?? Sad.
R16, why don't you show some self respect and quit using that word.
See girls, things ain't so bad here
Because no straight man would be so obsessed with gays as Putin is R19. "Fag" would be the word he would use to describe himself when he looks in the mirror every night.
The world will certainly be a better place when Putin is dead.
I don't give a shit if he is or isn't, R21, why don't you show some respect for yourself and the people around you and not use the easiest word on your shelf?
I think it is because dealing with Gays is a lot easier than addressing the AIDS, drug, and alcohol abuse issues plaguing Russia.
It's a shame because Russian gays were actually starting to get some rights in the 90s under Boris Yeltsin. Then Putin came to power and Russia got thrown back into neanderthal behavior.
No this isnt about other issues, they just dont like gay people. Anyone here pay attention to whats happened to West Hollywood in the last 20 years?
The Russian community has basically pushed it's way east into the gay community. But instead of playing nice, they have wiggled their way into city counsel and started pushing all the gays out every chance they get.
The gay community was too naive and tried to work with them but them but all the got was more feet in the door and a strict anti gay addenda.
So I am not surprised if that is happening here, what is got to be like over there.
R26, that is actually very interesting. Can you elaborate?
Also, the rudest people I have ever met. I live in a huge condominium complex with basically all races. Most people say hello to each other but never fails, every time I say that to someone speaking half English half Russian, no response as if I do not exist.
"I'm guessing this thread will not devolve into hateful racial epithets."
I don't think there is a word dirty enough for Russians.
Every Russian I have met has a hard exterior. I've never met a happy-go-lucky, bubbly Russian person. I mean, just look at their literature. Dark, depressing and incredibly nihilistic. Some things are just woven into the national fabric. Bleakness seems to be woven into theirs.
When I was in the military I had a russian instructor who was very bubbly and friendly - she also could turn into a fucking iron bitch in two seconds. Like a werewolf - it was really something to see.
Her explanation was this: "Every Russian has seen ten terrible things by the time they are give, and twenty more by the time they are ten. By the time they are in high school, they will have lost half their childhood friends. The land is dangerous and full of drink, and men."
Russia is a nation of cunts. Jamaica rightfully gets hated on for being a nation of homophobic fundie KKKunts, but Russia is probably worse.
[quote]Tennis player Marat Safin is now in the Russian Parliament. As a player, he always gave the impression of a fun, liberal guy and THIS is what he gets up to post-tennis?? Sad.
Really? He came across as "fun" and a party guy, but liberal? Based on what?
I am sure no one dares dissent for fear of the consequences. The Orthodox church in Russia and Greece as well as other countries, is behind this, with full compliance by these bigots. This makes gay bashing and violence both patriotic and pious.
r34 - He just always seemed like a cool, live and let live kind of guy. Stuff like this made me think so, I guess:
From Outsports, about 4 years ago:
[quote]My friends and I traveled to the BNP Paribas Open last week in Indian Wells, Calif., and the trip far exceeded my expectations. I didn't think it would compare to the locker room access I was given as a college player in 2004, but I was wrong. The venue was as magnificent as I remembered, and the practice courts were completely open to the public. I patrolled the practice courts for hours on end in search of my favorite tennis players, and I was able to get within five feet of Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Simon, Tursunov, Monfils, Bolelli, Tsonga, Berdych, Gasquet, and countless other top professional players. No one left me as star struck as my favorite player of all time: Marat Safin.
[quote]Safin is much larger and better looking in person, as were most of the pros, and I was completely speechless in his presence. My friend managed to shout, "Take a picture with your #1 fan," and with that, Safin walked over, commented on my admiration, allowed me to put my hand on his sweaty back, posed for two pictures, pinched me on the side, and gave me the most unforgettable smile as he walked away.
[quote]The following day, all the big guns were out again, but this time, Safin was shirtless. I watched him practice, and the power he generated was like nothing I have ever seen. After his practice, he walked by me and acknowledeged that he remembered me. This time, my nerves got the best of me, and the words, "I love you" exited my mouth. My face turned completely red as he began to laugh. Safin grabbed my hand, offered up a wink, and kept walking.
[quote]It's not often that these moments exceed our expectations, but Marat Safin definitely left me wanting more. A LOT more.
Can someone tell us what is going on in WeHo please with the Russians & the gays and the city council?
So, you respond to Russian homophobia with bigoted anti-Russian putdowns? You have no moral authority to denounce their homophobia if you yourselves are bigots. You are just selfish in your bigotry and get upset when people don't like you instead of having a moral principle that bigotry against anyone is unacceptable.
Go fuck yourself, ya stinkin' commie R38.
Nice. One more place I don't need to bother to visit in the world.
There are longstanding rumors of Putin being a pedophile. Not a DL "pedo" (i.e. likes One Direction), but that he actually likes little boys.
I've only seen one video of him lifting a little boy's shirt and kissing the kid's stomach, which is no proof. But it was a creepy.
However, as the Roman Catholic church has taught us, M/m pedophiles are virulently anti-gay.
I find Russian males very attractive in porn settings.
Beyond that I have no experience.
Is anyone saying people of Russian heritage should not have human rights, r38? Let me guess: you're not even gay. You just dropped in to share your moral authority.
R38 is the sanctimony troll, back from his stint in Africa or Haiti or the slums of Sao Paolo or Kolkata, reminding the poor that Jesus loves them.
The current Russian government are like Nazis, looking to scapegoat members of society for all their ills, population loss, shitty economy and so on. They desperatly want to be the powerful Soviet Union but that will never happen again. Im sure if they could blame jews they would.
Bravo R38. You are right.
Wow. Why are white people so anti gay? Is it a cultural thing?
It simply shows Russians don't know their history.
So many of the Romanov males were homosexual or bisexual - the majority of the Grand Dukes in the last generation.
The deal with West Hollywood and Russians are that they have slowly moved into the neighborhood, bought up gay businesses like bars and closed them down or turned them straight.
They bring that conservative religious thing with them and don't bend at all. Its sort of a turf war and they gays are loosing.
Too much selling out when the price is right for gay establishments. And lack of patronage by the younger gays to care make it the perfect storm for another group to take what they want if they stick together.
[quote]So, you respond to Russian homophobia with bigoted anti-Russian putdowns? You have no moral authority to denounce their homophobia if you yourselves are bigots. You are just selfish in your bigotry and get upset when people don't like you instead of having a moral principle that bigotry against anyone is unacceptable.
So it's bigoted to be against bigotry? I knew that Islamic bigots got love on datalounge but I thought Russians had skin that was too light for DL's seething loons to defend. Isn't hating light skin the full time mission of this site?
I was involved with not one but 2 Russian guys. Oh. My. God.
On the plus side: big meat (uncut), lots of sex (they loved to bottom), and submissive.
On the negative side: clinging, hyper emotional, and alcoholic.
Don't be fooled by the way with the Orthodox Church. The priests are every bit as hypocritical as the Catholic Church.
r49, the seething loons here hate (some) Asians too.
“Cut their balls off!” Russian official allegedly encourages gay bashing as Parliament passes bill banning homosexual “propaganda”
The Russian Parliament today passed a law banning “propaganda” about gay people, hoping the measure will prevent the country’s children from becoming gay. But according to photos of violent clashes between pro- and anti-gay activists at Duma headquarters in Moscow this morning, many Russian tweens have already made up their mind about gay rights. They are against them.
The disconcerting images from photographer Ilya Varlamov above show young children kicking, beating and chasing some activists protesting the new bill. Local police seemed to encourage the violence, stepping on the throat of one person and wrestling others to the ground in an unfriendly manner.
During the melee, an unidentified Duma official from the Communist Party approached and shook hands with a policeman, and reportedly said: “So are you guys ramping up the pressure on these faggots? Beat them up well! Cut their balls off!” The anti-gay crowd also threw bottles and rotten eggs at the activists, who were surrounded by an antagonistic crowd of about 200 people.
More than 20 pro activists were detained, including journalist Masha Gessen, director of Radio Liberty.
The bill will likely be approved by the upper house of Parliament and President Vladimir Putin, the BBC calling it “a virtual formality.” The intentionally vague language of the law means that anyone seen as promoting homosexuality to Russians under 18 would face heavy fines.
Not amusingly, a separate bill also passed by the Duma today makes it a crime to “offend religious believers.” The penalty for doing so is up to three years in jail.
Can you imagine if they were passing laws like this against Jews or black people? Europe and North America would be in a tizzy over it. Putin would be portrayed as a new Hitler and the slope to fascism would be identified. But gays? Just a few news reports and a little hand-wringing.
This is just proof that Russians are bad people.
Political Communism was not the problem, it was always the Evil Russian people, who would have been like this under any political system.
Some of you seem even more hateful and immoral than the Russians you criticize. A human rights movement should be based on moral authority, not spite and malice toward people who are different. MLK had it right that you cannot fight hate with hate, and turning the other cheek is truly the best moral principle to live by with regard to others. I can't cosign with anyone or any movement that uses hate and malice as a tactic.
Didn't we already have to listen to your whining churchy bullshit you Russkie cunt/R38/R55?
Go the fuck back to Leningrad!!!
r56, dude, you need to get some psychiatric help. You are deranged, man.
No, you are just a fucking jesusfreak/refuck frau cunt, R38/R55/R57.
You need to get some FUCK OFF help.
Like every emigrant group, the worst among them make a very bad impression. Ruthless, bigoted...a hard group to like.
What is causing the Russian people to be so backward and small minded? Did religion get to them?
[quote] But gays? Just a few news reports and a little hand-wringing.
That was exactly the response to what was happening to the Jews in Germany in the 1930s.
Gays are now the easier target for the bullies.
Nothing seems to unite people like hatred for a minority group. Hitler knew this and he was right.
& I'm amazed how energized people get in their hatred. You see individuals with their youtube channels posting vile messages all over the place, making videos dedicated to their hatred.
I have a youtube channel...just old pop videos from the 60s, uncontentious stuff like that and I've had to delete endless racist comments and my clips have nothing to do with race.
[quote]What is causing the Russian people to be so backward and small minded?
Possibly because they were victims of oppression for so many years and they now want to direct it at someone else.
[quote]I'm guessing this thread will not devolve into hateful racial epithets.
And why shouldn't it? They're truly not fully evolved as a race.
Oh boo hoo R61.
They should bring the Czar back. Then things would work well for them.
Funny, just last night I met the portion of Pussy Riot who are not in prison. Naive, pretty young women who are -- guess what? -- homophobes. One told our group earnestly that men being with men was "unnatural." I told her that there are many happy gay men enjoying life and got the response that "they are pretending."
These people want tolerance for themselves but not for others, and side with the Russian state that imprisoned their collaborators and friends.
I hope they grow up, but am not optimistic.
[quote]Why are white people so anti gay? Is it a cultural thing?
Yes, it's just WHITE people who are anti-gay. People who are black and brown aren't anti-gay AT ALL. Well, except for all those anti-gay Arab nations. And those in Africa. And Asia. And everyone's favorite, Jamaica.
And then there're all those European nations which are mostly not anti-gay. Oh, wait...
Thank you R67...
It's poverty and religion which breed bigotry. The wealthier (when the wealth is fairly evenly distributed) and more secular a country is (both things which tend to go hand in hand with an educated population) the more tolerant and inclusive it is of minorities.
Bingo R69. Thank you! R67, based on what you wrote, you have to agree, right?
LOL R70 - if you didn't already, trolldaring me would have shown that I am both R67 and R69, so yes, I agree with myself.
Thanks R71, I hadn't trolldar'd you.
This is the country that gave us Stalin, Catherine the great who was, make no mistake, a monster of epic porportions.Do you think there was any real difference between Lenin and Bloody Nicholas? This is a culture that will not tolerate diversity or dissent, they can all rot. lets make friends with red china. Just as bad, but more of them so we should make nice.
"This is just proof that Russians are bad people.
Political Communism was not the problem, it was always the Evil Russian people, who would have been like this under any political system."
Not sure if you are sincere, or if you're exaggerating to make a point and you agree with R55, but you're absolutely correct.
The last century in Russia went like this: the peasants took over. They killed all but a few psychotically enterprising members of the upper class. Then came the brain drain that continued for at least 70 years. Artists, writers, innovators, all of the best and the brightest were imprisoned, starved or even killed. And the lucky ones defected. So basically what you have left are the progeny of the brutish, stupid and uncreative.
I've written about my years living in Saint Petersburg so many times on this board. Suffice to say, I am absolutely NOT surprised.
I'll go out on a limb and say that this would not be happening if gay rights were not making so much progress in the United States. Russians love to believe that the reason they are not more powerful, the reason they are not wealthier, etc is because they are good. They pretend they would have won the Cold War if they had only surrendered their morals like the Americans. Basically, "We could be America...but we're just such a morally and culturally superior people, that we'll take a pass." Gay rights getting attention in the United States? Antigay rhetoric heating up in Russia. Gays are a great scapegoat and this strengthens the whole nationalism thing that has been so whipped up under Putin.
The question asked in the other thread deserves a mention here:
"Is it really male to male sex they're against, or is it the western media's portrayal of "gay" (i.e. men who pretend to be pseudo-women and adopt a snotty bitchy attitude about it and are an embarrassment to their gender)? Maybe there's hope that the latter is what causes the disgust."
The population of Russia is around 143 million.
Say one in twenty is gay: That's over 7 million people who must be having a terrible time with this sort of state sanctioned prejudice.
During the apartheid years no one went on luxury trips to South Africa, and yet it's still totally fine to go to St. Petersburg.
Isn't it time for a boycott of a country that is oppressing a significant minority of its people?
[quote]Is it really male to male sex they're against, or is it the western media's portrayal of "gay" (i.e. men who pretend to be pseudo-women and adopt a snotty bitchy attitude about it and are an embarrassment to their gender)? Maybe there's hope that the latter is what causes the disgust.
I find this comment pretty repugnant, as it implies that if only all gays were 'manly men' who weren't all *obvious* about being gay, it would all be okay. The kind of treatment going on in Russia is unacceptable towards ANYONE. It should be okay to walk down the street in a rainbow-colored, top to toe one-piece, not just okay to be gay as long as you 'don't shove it in their faces.'
Broadwayworld.com is having a contest to go to Russia to see a Ballet. What gay would want to do that knowing this?
[quote]I find this comment pretty repugnant, as it implies that if only all gays were 'manly men' who weren't all *obvious* about being gay, it would all be okay
It didn't say anyone should be "manly men." Why do you have to misrepresent? Is "manly men" the only alternative you can think of to "men who pretend to be pseudo-women and adopt a snotty bitchy attitude about it"? How about just guys being themselves and not putting on an act? That's the real alternative and represents the 95% of gay guys who don't put on an embarrassing act.
But it's clear what your intent is by the words "obvious about being gay" You WANT gays to be associated with that.
[quote]But it's clear what your intent is by the words "obvious about being gay" You WANT gays to be associated with that.
Well, it's datalounge. That's pretty much the full time mission here. This is the world headquarters of whatever that movement is called.
R 80- you should seriously fuck off. You have no idea what you are talking about. Your descriptions of certain gay men are absolutely subjective, revealing your personal issues. Your statistics are pulled straight out of your asshole.
Thank goodness Russians aren't PC.
Whatever, R80. The implication was there, and if you don't realise that, I feel sorry for you.
[quote]How about just guys being themselves and not putting on an act?
Who are you to say if flamboyant gay men are "putting on an act"? Your judgementalism reeks.
[quote]But it's clear what your intent is by the words "obvious about being gay" You WANT gays to be associated with that.
LOL This is so far off base it's actually genuinely amusing to me. I just want people to be allowed to express themselves however they like without fear of retribution. It's pretty sad that you find so many gay men an "embarrassment." What the fuck does it matter to you how other people choose to live? Just live your life how you want to live it, and let others do their thing.
That must explain the chilly cuntiness you encounter in NYC: so many are descendants of Russian Jews.
So r82 is OBJECTING to the idea that most gay men do not put on an embarrassing act? Why would you object to such a thing r82 unless you want gay men to be portrayed that way?
You may not like gay men behaving in a womanly manner.
But does a fair society put them in prison for it? Beat them for it?
The answer is pretty clear.
Girls! Girls! You're both pretty!
Russia is Iran with white people.
[quote]Who are you to say if flamboyant gay men are "putting on an act"?
I've lived in the same world you have and have watched people transition in and out of that act for years. I went to high school with guys who were nothing but natural until they went off to college and got into a little scene/clique and starting aping the accent, manners, and lingo of their new friends. It is 100% an act and is the male equivalent of valley girl stupidity and its newer derivatives.
Of course not r87, but I don't think anyone sees Russia becoming that kind of ideal anytime soon. The original question of how Russian see "gay" was a valid one. The distinction probably has merit.
r86 it's quite pathetic that you think that if only gay men "talked, acted and looked" straight, all the homohaters would suddenly become homolovers, supporters of equal gay rights and all would be well in the world. It's only the obviously gay guys that are standing in the way of universal love for all gays.
UNLESS, YOU are putting on an act.
Try again, demonizer of gays at r92. NO ONE has said that gay guys should "act straight" and gush on about hooters and pussy. The idea is that they BE THEMSELVES and act natural instead of putting on a fake learned mimicked act that any honest person would characterize as annoying as hell.
And again, you spout the "obviously gay" bullshit. Clear that your agenda is to associate gay males with embarrassing behavior.
No, it doesn't r91.
They see gays as sucking dick, fucking other men or being fucked by them. They see them as going against the bible and God. The way a man talks or looks has nothing to do with it.
The fact that anyone here thinks that if only all gay men acted "butch", "straight" and "manly" (even if you don't specifically say it) they would score points with such backward people and said people would see them as "normal", is pathetic, not realistic and sad.
r92, the only thing OBVIOUS here is that you want "straight" to be seen as a normal male and that you want "gay" to be seen as some kind of borderline tranny. You are the worst kind of anti-gay.
That's not true R90. They didn't change: you did. Adolescent boys do act somewhat girlish. It's a fact.
[quote]The fact that anyone here thinks that if only all gay men acted "butch", "straight" and "manly"
Here we go again. Another post by someone pushing the idea that gay males are prisses. And OF COURSE the word "butch" would be thrown in there. Absolutely NO ONE uses such a term other than someone trying to push that smear. The concept of the normal natural gay male (i.e. most all gay males) scares you to death doesn't it?
You are deranged r93. I'm demonizing gays? YOU ARE! Yeah, sometime what you're describing seems like an act to me too but it's none of my business (or right) to force my expectations on anyone and how they should
behave, esp if said behavior doesn't harm anyone. Should I act the same way toward every straight person who doesn't behave according to the norm or is eccentric?
You are the one who keeps repeating the "if only they acted naturally and like themselves" which implies there's one way of acting "right" and that's of course without any "feminine" traits. Who the fuck are you to know what every gay man's "real self" is?
You're the self hating one here who can't accept diversity in people.
[quote]Adolescent boys do act somewhat girlish. It's a fact.
You are an absolute loon. That's a fact.
[quote]You are the one who keeps repeating the "if only they acted naturally and like themselves" which implies there's one way of acting "right" and that's of course without any "feminine" traits. Who the fuck are you to know what every gay man's "real self" is?
"feminine"? The kind of thing described in some posts above is not "feminine" at all. It's a weird adopted accent and manners and snottiness all its own. Women don't act like that. Keep trying to fool yourself into thinking that being an annoying ass is some kind of natural gay thing. No honest person buys it.
This is very, very bleak. Not one single vote to stand up for gay, lesbian and bisexual people. Cowards and bigots voting and promoting, and my heart goes out to Russian LGBT people.
r95 I don't want anything but for people to be free to be themselves, the way THEY feel they are and what THEY think their real self is, without being subjected to sanctions, contempt, physical danger, persecution and suffering because of it!
I feel sorry for you.
A radical Orthodox believer (R) throws an egg at gay rights activists during a protest against a proposed new law termed by the State Duma as "against advocating the rejection of traditional family values" in central Moscow, June 11, 2013. Russian police detained more than 20 gay rights activists involved in a "kissing protest" outside parliament where lawmakers were preparing to pass a bill banning homosexual "propaganda".
[quote][R92], the only thing OBVIOUS here is that you want "straight" to be seen as a normal male and that you want "gay" to be seen as some kind of borderline tranny. You are the worst kind of anti-gay.
There seems to be full-time crew here dedicated to pushing the gays-are-prissy idea. They've lept into action in both the Russia threads with their usual BS.
F Em In Ate gays have been with us forever and are never going to go away. Why do they bother you so much? Why are you so self-conscious and disapproving of them. They may not be your cup of tea. Get over it.
r102 it was obvious from your earlier post that when you say "what THEY think their real self is," you mean annoying behavior they've picked up in some silly urban clique. You're doing gay guys no favors, no matter how you claim otherwise. Yes, you can argue that ideally, people should be free to be an annoying ass without being persecuted for it. But it's not the wisest behavior to encourage just to prove some idealistic theoretical point.
r106 are you addressing that to Putin?
106, no, addressing it to the surly sourpuss(es) on this thread who seems to be implying that gays with certain mannerisms he or they don't like are asking to be beaten up and jailed.
So we now understand that Russia joined Nazi Germany as an ally first, then Germany turned against Russia.
Those of us with a functioning brain and who aren't sheeple, know that people don't deserve special or extra rights based on who they sleep with. But PC ninnies ( who have taken over America) want to allow gay men to adopt children so I don't expect brainless dolts like them to get it. They hate children. I applaud Russia for not bowing to pressure from the PC brigade.
[quote]that gays with certain mannerisms he or they don't like are asking to be beaten up and jailed.
Except that no one has said any such thing.
r111 watch the Colbert Report a few times. Your trolling is amateurish.
Oooh, so edgy R111. You do realize we've been hearing shit like that from subnormal idiots like you all our lives. I really do have french poodle who has a bigger brain than you.
Probably Bret Easton Ellis on a bender.
You got issues r107. BIG ONES! I'm not saying "gay men are e.ffeminat.e" because I actually agree that most gay men aren't but some are, so what? Does that mean they should be scorned, stripped of their human rights and be threatened by the state? And in case you don't understand what they are trying to do in Russia, I'll help you. By forbidding the word gay/homosexual and anything and
everything gay is punishable by law, they are obliterating gay existence and can preten gay people don't exist! That has nothing to do with any "gay bitchiness" or flamboyancy and whatnot. They hate the exitence of homosexuality. PERIOD. They use the gays as a scapegoat for everything because they are an easy target.
Just because someone is "annoying" as you keep repeating in post after post, doesn't mean they should be treated as less than human, as nonexistent or be persecuted.
Of course, what you really mean is that YOU can't stand
those kinds of gays, that they embarrass you and that you think they are the impediment to acceptance of gays, just like these Russian beasts believe ALL gays
are the impediment to a "normal", thriving, healthy and "moral" society.
Get that into your "normal", real self head.
""Is it really male to male sex they're against, or is it the western media's portrayal of "gay" (i.e. men who pretend to be pseudo-women and adopt a snotty bitchy attitude about it and are an embarrassment to their gender)? Maybe there's hope that the latter is what causes the disgust."
So in other words poor Russia is defending itself against bitchy gays.
This a passive-aggressive borderline excuse for the treatment of gay people in Russia. Which includes beating and jailing. Not too far of a leap to make.
Don't you have a male child to go adopt and molest? Preferably a minority one? I hear they are the easiest to get and then pimp out to your buddies.
Next people with objectum sexuality will be demanding special rights to marry their cars.
[quote]Funny, just last night I met the portion of Pussy Riot who are not in prison. Naive, pretty young women who are -- guess what? -- homophobes. One told our group earnestly that men being with men was "unnatural." I told her that there are many happy gay men enjoying life and got the response that "they are pretending."
The wiki needs to be updated then:
Pussy Riot members have been outspoken in their support of LGBT rights, and in an early interview they confirmed that the group includes at least one member of a sexual minority. Both Tolokonnikova and Samutsevich participated in the banned 2011 Gay Pride rally in Moscow, and were briefly detained after the rally was broken up by police. Pussy Riot's LGBT rights advocacy is seen in a negative light by conservative Russians; according to a Levada poll published in 2010, 74% of Russians view homosexuality as a "moral perversion" or "mental illness".
Thank you for gargling with Rush Limbaugh's colostomy bag, R118.
r117, "poor Russia" are your words, not anyone else's. But what if Russians do view gays like that? Hitler poisoned the minds of many Germans by using media to portray Jews badly. Do you seriously think negative portrayals don't have an effect on how much sympathy the public has?
I think what was being asked is "what is the IMAGE of gays in Russia?" When an ordinary Russian hears the term for gay, what does he picture? A normal guy just like himself who merely has a different sexual attraction? I'm guessing not.
R120- would you happen to be the CEO of the PC brigade, Dr. Frank Lombard (who I hear has reached sainthood in your community)? You're considered a truly representative role model and a highly accomplished living legend among the PC folk for fighting the good fight.
Thank God Russians are actually intelligent people. No PC sickness for Russians.
Yes r121, brainwashing nations with vile propagana while demonizing a minirity will do that but what has that go to do with bitchy gays? They object homosexuality, see it as immoral, perverse and unnatural, regardless of how a gay man looks, talks or behaves. They detest the very essence of homosexuality so even if there were no bitchy/annoying/e.ffeminate gays in existense, they would still be doing the same.
Why can't you understand that?
[quote]When an ordinary Russian hears the term for gay, what does he picture? A normal guy just like himself who merely has a different sexual attraction? I'm guessing not.
Yeah, probably not. One of things that has helped spread such rapid acceptance in America is young people coming out. Their families and friends are forced to realize that the sweet normal boy they've always known is gay, and importantly, he's nothing like the embarrassing types portrayed on TV for so many years. So they finally see the REALITY of homosexuality. Regular guys who just happen to like other guys. That's not hard to accept unless you're a fundie.
Nothing will change in Russia until you change perceptions.
r123, you really misunderstand the meaning of "PC." PC is not some lefty ideology. It's a tactic for shutting down debate and discussion because some views are claimed to be unworthy of being heard (and thereby denied the chance to prove their worth). Right wingers can be just as PC as left wingers, they just have different things they want to stamp out.
So it seems that by siding with the Russians here in trying to stamp out the reality of human sexuality, YOU are the true PC one.
r124, that's quite a sweeping declaration you make in the last sentence of your main paragraph. I think the perception of gays in Russia is more complicated than that. Official public words of condemnation are rarely what's actually animating the feeling underneath. When I hear American anti-gays talk about gays being a threat to the "sanctity of marriage" and such, I know very well they don't believe that nonsense. It's a more visceral FEELING that's perhaps poorly understood that drives them. And those feelings come from years of perceptions they've absorbed.
Sure St./Dr. Frank Lombard. I misunderstand PC because I think giving people extra or special rights based on who they sleep with is not only excessive but idiotic. I misunderstand PC because I believe it is insane to allow hyper-sexual individuals to adopt children to molest and pimp out to their gay friends. Again we will soon hear from sufferers of objectum sexuality wanting the right to marry their cars and prescription drug bottles.
"Political correctness (adjectivally, politically correct; both forms commonly abbreviated to PC) is a pejorative term that refers to language, ideas, policies, and behavior aimed at minimizing alienation of and discrimination against politically, socially or economically disadvantaged groups. The term usually implies that these social considerations are excessive or of a purely "political" nature. These groups most prominently include those defined by gender, race, sexual orientation and disability."
R93- you are an abject moron. You have contributed nothing of interest to this topic. You have never set foot in Russia, you have never interacted with Russians in Russia, nor have you been a gay man dating gay Russians while living in Russia.
You are so utterly off base here that your posts read as bad attempts at satire. This situation has nothing to do with your very subjective interpretation of how some American gays act. It's absolutely absurd. In a country so far gone, are you so ignorant to think that Russian gays are culturally identical to us? You actually think that Russian gays have been presenting themselves in the ways that you describe and that this legislation could be a response to this? You're fucked.
Homophobic straight men or men who are uncomfortable with gay men perceive gay sex as submissive and thus emulating the female role anyway. How certain men behave is beside the point. Having sex with another man is viewed as emulating women and thus inferior. In some societies ( and you'll find historical references to this as well) it is the gay receptive that gets the brunt of homophobia while the gay insertive is often perceived as non gay. Because of course the receptive role is the submissive and thus female role.
that should read, because of course the receptive role is PERCEIVED as the submissive/female role.
All of this conjecture about what causes the homophobic repression in Russia and what gays may or may not be doing to affect it is almost silly.
The homophobia is not only sanctioned, but encouraged by the government and the church there. Children and youth are encouraged to brutalize those perceived to be gay. Be very glad you don't live there.
And I'm sure that everyone already knows this but Russians aren't exactly tolerant of other minorities either. You can find videos all over YouTube of Russians brutally beating ( and I think even killing a couple guys) random minorities in the street. I watched a video featuring an Asian guy from the states studying there and he says it happens all of the time and he's scared living there. He also said that in Russia, if you aren't white you're black. They make no distinctions. Scary place. I hope that someday things will get better there for everybody.
I don't see economic inequities in Russia improving anytime soon. Putin has essentially handed the economy over the mega-wealthy, corrupt oligarchs
[quote] In a country so far gone, are you so ignorant to think that Russian gays are culturally identical to us? You actually think that Russian gays have been presenting themselves in the ways that you describe
r129, are you under the impression that Russians don't have TV and don't know anything of the rest of the world? Did r93 upset you that badly? I kindly snipped out the rest of your contradictory tirade.
And r128, I thought you were just trolling. I didn't realize you were a genuine loon.
R135- Well, I actually lived in Russia, speak Russian, therefore have access to Russian language media and, above all else, dated Russian men while living there. I have many gay friends in St.Petersburg and Moscow. This shit terrifies me. So, yes, it upsets me that some gay troll would suggest that Russians merely have a problem with a silly, effeminate caricature as envisioned by his own addled, self loathing brain. Gay Russians are not being beaten because of Western depictions of homosexuality. Fuck off, you clueless, privileged ass. You have no idea how fearful gay Russians are right now.
look r136, someone called you a bigoted tool.
Seriously, if you have such extensive Russian experience I wish you could offer some objective information about the question that was asked about the image of gays there a few pages earlier instead going all psycho and calling people who don't see everything your way trolls.
When a Russian hears гей, what imagery comes to mind?
I'm the bigot, R137? Hysterical. The image of gays in Russia? Let's see....well, they are seen as disgusting perverts. They are seen as sick people who are actively attempting to convert children to homosexuality. They are even blamed for Russia's low birth rate. For the last time, this antigay sentiment has nothing to do with gay men putting on some fake, queened out attitude. These people see gays as something far more sinister than that. And as I said, gays in Russia do not tend to adopt such affectations. Obviously, they don't feel comfortable "being themselves" and go to great lengths to appear butch.
[quote]Obviously, they don't feel comfortable "being themselves" and go to great lengths to appear butch.
You just couldn't help yourself could you? You seethe with it to such a degree that you let it slip: You desperately want to portray gay guys as people who, when they're being themselves, act like embarrassing fools. You ARE a bigot.
r138, anyone who uses the term "butch" is as far from a normal natural male as you can get. It indicates that you see gender as some cartoonish role. Sad.
^^I'd simplify it to say that anyone using the word "butch" is pushing the "gays are e-ffminate" bullshit. I've never seen an exception.
Putin recently filed for divorce. Hmmmm....
r18, and he was really close with Svetlana Kuznetsova who is rumored to be a lesbian but she's gotta go back in the closet.
Seeing as we're the majority (USA- still 73% White - Yeah!!) Why don't we just take charge and overrule NObama and his obstructionist thug army of homophobes who are oppressing us?!? Why should we be treated as second class whites just because we're gay??!?
R144, you'd be lucky to make it to second class.
Russians are also nasty in business relationships.
Never do business with a Russian, it is not if they try and take you but when. Working in the construction industry for years, I can attest to that.
Advanced in Space travel but not so much in human rights
The Bolsheviks decrimalized homosexuality in 1918.
Russia is just one big Thug Mafia Country.
No doubt the rich are living it up but God help you if your one of the poor or a minority of any kind there.
Hence the word "act", R140. Please, be one deranged gender troll posting all this nonsense.
The Russian Space program, like the American Space Program, was based on captured Nazi Scientists.
In Russia, they gave the credit to Russians only, in the USA they allowed Dr. Werner Von Braun to take partial credit.
The Cold was was their Nazi Scientists versus our Nazi Scientists. The top Nazi Scientists intentionally ran from Eastern Germany towards the Americans and British, to avoid the Russians.
R133, I know the exact program you're talking about because I watched it when it aired on Current. It's called From Russia With Hate. I tell you, to be gay or a visible minority in Russia must be the most terrifying experience. Not to mention being a woman. I think I read something that said that between 30-50% of reported murder victims are women who were beaten to death by their husbands/boyfriends. DV is commonplace in Russia but there are no laws to protect female victims. It's just terrible.
From Russia With Hate
[quote]DV is commonplace in Russia but there are no laws to protect female victims. It's just terrible.
Isn't this where the resident DL misogynists chime in and say that the fucking gashes deserved it? So no need for "laws" when nature takes care of itself, eh gay boys?
r153 - So you're baiting the other trolls, troll?
I may start a new thread called Battle of the Trolls.
A few international sports organizations, especially those committed to anti-homophobia, are criticizing the bill saying that it could put athletes and fans in danger if the travel to Russia to participate in sporting events. Russia has the Olympics in a few years and I think they also have a major FIFA event in couple of years as well.
Well r128 is as good proof as any that homophobia thrives where ignorance and unhappiness abound. The encouragement of homophobia in Russia is a ploy by the elite to distract Russians from the fact capitalism has brought them nothing but serfdom. Their ire is directed towards a harmless minority so the political and religious establishment continue to pillage the economy with impunity.