- Here's the BBC live blog.
- Terrorist attack.
They are from Africa, both black with African accent.
- [quote]"These two guys were crazed. They were just animals. They dragged him from the pavement and dumped his body in the middle of the road and left his body there," he told LBC radio.
[quote]This eyewitness wishes to remain anonymous "I was walking my dog and heard some shouting about 50 yards from me. A man was running down the road and being chased by a car. The car then screeched to a halt and two men got out one had some kind of sword. They literally swung at the other guy's head. The armed police turned up and there were some shots. We were told to go home and now they won't let us out. We're in lockdown. There actually now seems more activity than there was before. I can hear helicopters and there are police officers with guns."
[quote]"Two people were lying over him and I thought they were trying to resuscitate him," he said. But Mr Wilders said he drove on to park his car, and when he returned another witness told him the two men were stabbing the man on the ground.
[quote]Senior Whitehall sources have told the BBC that the Woolwich attackers are thought to have tried to film their attack whilst shouting "Allahu Akbar" - God is Great, says political editor Nick Robinson.
- [quote]the Woolwich attackers are thought to have tried to film their attack whilst shouting "Allahu Akbar" - God is Great
Well well, this presents another opportunity for the DL set to whine on about "islamophobia."
- ITV supposedly broadcast this, but the link to their website no longer works
Video filmed by an onlooker and broadcast by ITV News shows a man with his hands covered in blood and holding a bloodied knife and machete. He says in a London accent: “I apologise that women had to witness that, but in our lands our women have to see the same thing. “You people will never be safe. Remove your Government, they don’t care about you.” He then walks off, still carrying his weapons, back towards the body of the victim who is lying in the middle of the road.
- The BBC just showed part of that video. He apologized to women about the scene, and viewers could see his still bloody hand.
- This is a chilling story. Imagine the terror and pain of the victim's final moments, or being a family member or friend of his.
I also noticed in the news reports that it took 20 minutes for armed response to show up. Thankfully the men didn't hurt anyone beyond the man they beheaded but I wonder if this will start a conversation about making firearms more common for London police.
- [quote]Well well, this presents another opportunity for the DL set to whine on about "islamophobia."
RACIST! These people are very gay-friendly and love integrating. These attacks never happened, if they did it's because of English people.
- Say what you will about "fraus."
[quote]"They took 20 minutes to arrive, the police - the armed response.
[quote]"When they dumped the body in the road, these two black guys had the opportunity to hurt other people if they wanted to because there were brave women with the dead guy on the floor. They were shielding and covering him. The attackers with the knives were standing over these women."
- FF r4.
- Go fuck yourself r10.
- R4's comment was perfectly reasonable and not deserving of an F&F, R10.
- The guy who filmed it was also black, it seems.
- [quote]The guy who filmed it was also black, it seems.
I heard he wanted to become the black Tarantino
- r13, that link didn't work for me. There's another tape at Gawker. Warning - it's grisly.
- I'm glad I didn't answer that Craigslist ad about wanting some hot head.
- I hate that they're calling this "terrorism". It's a very opportunistic murder with political justification. See a soldier...run him down and cut his head off.
- "I thought they were trying to resuscitate him"
Never assume anything. I'm not saying run over and pull them off, but be a good Samaritan and find out what's going on.
- These things happen.
- There were police around, but they stayed away and waited for the armed police.
[quote]I was more concerned about the kids because he had a handgun and he'd pull it out. As soon as he pulled that out I panicked, you know what I mean.
[quote]The police were down at the bottom of the road where I live. They were round the corner and they said they actually couldn't do anything until Trojan [a reference to the armed police] turned up.
- This is the second assailant and a passerby talking to him. From the Guardian live blog.
- The police were a bit pathetic:
One witness, who called himself James, told LBC radio: "There was only a few people at first but then traffic started to build up with people getting out their cars shouting at them to stop but they were taking no notice.
"I think they were proud of what they were doing. They had the opportunity to hurt other people if they wanted to. There were brave women with the body on the floor, they were trying to shield him and covering him.
"The attackers with the knives, they were standing over these women. There were people filming it on their phones. [italic]There were police at the end of the road but there were no police in the vicinity of the attackers."[/italic]
Several witnesses described how the attackers threatened them with guns before the arrival of the police.
James said: "I jumped out the car and shouted. One of the guys went into the crashed car, pulled out a bag, and pointed a gun at us. He shouted get in the car, get in the car. I got on the phone to police."
- When are first world countries going to learn that these disgusting asylum seekers are mostly nothing but violent trash who want to cause trouble? Let them stay in their shithole homelands.
- Send r24 to their homelands while you're at it.
- R25 = Disgusting asylum seeker
- r25, you're the one who needs to be sent there. YOU are the one who has such an affinity for backward culture
- R24 They are British Muslims. They are home you great eejit.
- If only the police had machetes
- Europe should never have given up the Guest Worker program.
- That woman is either incredibly brave or incredibly stupid in r22's link. I can't imagine standing that close and talking to someone holding a bloody knife who'd just decapitated someone.
- Brandishing a cleaver and a knife, and with the body of the victim lying yards away, the man said: "We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you. The only reason we have done this is because Muslims are dying every day. This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."
- [quote]When are first world countries going to learn that these disgusting asylum seekers are mostly nothing but violent trash who want to cause trouble? Let them stay in their shithole homelands.
Until you have to LIVE WITH THIS SHIT every day R25, shut the fuck UP.
- [quote] British Muslims. They are home you great eejit.
Then they need to go to wherever THEIR disgusting laws and violent bullshit religion are upheld.
- [quote]When are first world countries going to learn that these disgusting asylum seekers are mostly nothing but violent trash who want to cause trouble? Let them stay in their shithole homelands.
- [quote]Until you have to LIVE WITH THIS SHIT every day [R25], shut the fuck UP.
- This is only the beginning. These POS are going to attack gay men in droves. They are horrible.
- I get so sick of fuckheads like R25 & R28 defending an asshole "religion" that thinks gays should be put to death.
WAKE THE FUCK UP IDIOTS!
- Agree R32. Everyone seems very calm in the above videos. WTF.
- [quote]This is only the beginning. These POS are going to attack gay men in droves. They are horrible.
These "people" are a lower form of existence. This is a gay forum and I shall F&F anyone who supports a Muslim reign of terror.
I agree R39.
I'd love to see how you guys defending them would fare against a gay hating Muslim with a machete. He'd be quite happy to chop off your dick, or behead you.
- This is insane and those cops are total cowards and should have their badges stripped.
- Thank you r41. It's amazing that on a gay site we would have people defending backward fundies.
- Islam is poison.
- He said "You people will never be safe."
Isn't that enough?? They need to GO!
- R39 I did not defend their actions nor do I condone extremist behaviour but to say they need to go home when they are already home smacks of poor argument. You have extreme right wing groups in America who are quite as scary in many ways and yet they are not told to go home. They are home. You need to find other ways to deal with the issues.
- [quote] [R24] They are British Muslims. They are home you great eejit.
"I apologise that women had to witness that, but in our lands our women have to see the same thing"
"In our lands"? Doesn't sound like [italic] he [/italic] considers the UK home.
- I feel like I have been dragged back to the times when convicts were sent to Botany Bay. We need to deal with our own. Knee jerk kick people out comments do not solve the problem. It just creates greater animosity leading to further violence. I live just a couple of hundred metres from a peace line so I am not some middle class liberal. I just see what works and what doesn't.
- So what do you have to say about people who talk about other countries as "our lands," R49? And did you know that the UK does indeed deport mams who preach radical Islam?
And the people deported to Botany Bay weren't immigrants or the children of immigrants who asked for asylum and then sought to restrict the freedom of people in their new "homeland."
- Is the death penalty still used in the UK?
These men should be executed.
- City on fire! City on fire!
- [quote]We need to deal with our own.
Perhaps it would be easier for a nation to do that if it weren't importing some of the worst people on Earth and having to deal with them too.
- [quote]Perhaps it would be easier for a nation to do that if it weren't importing some of the worst people on Earth and having to deal with them too.
At least they can speak English!!
- R32 - It sounds like she didn't know exactly what she was walking into. She just thought it was a Cub Scout leader's duty to render aid at an accident until she saw the guy had weapons.
A mother-of-two described tonight how she put her own life on the line by trying to persuade the soldier’s murderers to hand over their weapons.
Cub scout leader Ingrid Loyau-Kennett selflessly engaged the terrorists in conversation and kept her nerve as one of them told her: “We want to start a war in London tonight.”
Mrs Loyau-Kennett, 48, from Cornwall, was one of the first people on the scene after the two Islamic extremists butchered a soldier in Woolwich, south east London.
She was photographed by onlookers confronting one of the attackers who was holding a bloodied knife.
Mrs Loyau-Kennett was a passenger on a number 53 bus which was travelling past the scene, and jumped off to check the soldier’s pulse.
“Being a cub leader I have my first aid so when I saw this guy on the floor I thought it was an accident then I saw the guy was dead and I could not feel any pulse.
“And then when I went up there was this black guy with a revolver and a kitchen knife, he had what looked like butcher’s tools and he had a little axe, to cut the bones, and two large knives and he said 'move off the body’.
“So I thought 'OK, I don’t know what is going on here’ and he was covered with blood. I thought I had better start talking to him before he starts attacking somebody else. I thought these people usually have a message so I said 'what do you want?’
“I asked him if he did it and he said yes and I said why? And he said because he has killed Muslim people in Muslim countries, he said he was a British soldier and I said really and he said 'I killed him because he killed Muslims and I am fed up with people killing Muslims in Afghanistan they have nothing to do there.”
Moments earlier, the killers had hacked at the soldier “like a piece of meat”, and when Mrs Loyau-Kennett arrived on the scene they were roaming John Wilson Street waiting for police to arrive so they could stage a final confrontation with them.
She said: “I started to talk to him and I started to notice more weapons and the guy behind him with more weapons as well. By then, people had started to gather around. So I thought OK, I should keep him talking to me before he noticed everything around him.
“He was not high, he was not on drugs, he was not an alcoholic or drunk, he was just distressed, upset. He was in full control of his decisions and ready to everything he wanted to do.
I said 'right now it is only you versus many people, you are going to lose, what would you like to do?’ and he said I would like to stay and fight.”
The suspect in the black hat then went to speak to someone else and Mrs Loyau-Kennett tried to engage with the other man in the light coat.
She said: “The other one was much shier and I went to him and I said 'well, what about you? Would you like to give me what you have in your hands?’ I did not want to say weapons but I thought it was better having them aimed on one person like me rather than everybody there, children were starting to leave school as well.
Mrs Loyau-Kennett was not the only woman to show extraordinary courage. Others shielded the soldier’s body as the killers stood over them.
MPs praised the “extraordinary bravery” of the women and raised concerns about why it took armed police 20 minutes to arrive at the scene while people’s lives were at risk.
According to a security source the delay in the armed police response is “particularly surprising” because there is a heavily armed police presence at Woolwich Crown Court, which is just two and a half miles away.
Keith Vaz, the Labour chairman of the Home Affairs select committee, said: “We are all grateful for the local people who responded so quickly. “I do want to pay tribute to them [members of the public] – I think what
they have done is extraordinarily brave and courageous.
- Look at the difference in immigrants:
Koreans -- industrious; value higher education for all their children (male and female); don't expect their new countries to convert to a religion that the majority in the new country do not want to convert to; do not demand their female children marry someone of the parents' choosing; do not prevent females from walking into a house of worship; do not require females to hide parts of their bodies (hair, neck, legs) from the public view; do not demand their new host country follow laws from the 12th century.
- You know that there are a billion Muslims of various ethnicities the whole world over, don't you, R56?
- Another day, another unstable testosterone ape goes on a rampage. Business as usual.
- [quote] According to a security source the delay in the armed police response is “particularly surprising” because there is a heavily armed police presence at Woolwich Crown Court, which is just two and a half miles away.
I used to work across the street from the NY Public Library in midtown Manhattan and from 3 pm to 7pm it took forever to get police because of the traffic. We had to call 911 a few times for medical emergencies.
Maybe they have a similar traffic situation?
- R56, true.
And they SPEAK ENGLISH!
- SHARIA LAW TOYS:
- R56, that's a strawman argument. The muslim girls I went to middle school with in Norway were pressured by their parents to become doctors, or other respected and good professions, though mainly doctors. And those girls were a lot less religious than their parents.
But then again, I grew up in a good, rich commune that integrated immigrants well, were there were good free schools and plenty jobs. You see, immigrants need a good education to learn the language properly and thus adapt to the culture. That's one reason why America is so fucked up, the educational system is fucking shitty. And some schools teach creationism, for fuck's sake. America doesn't understand the importance of good education, but Norway sees it as a human right.
- "They are from Africa, both black with African accent. Mali???"
Try again moron at r2. South London accent, for example.
And, r34, the truth is we don't have to live with this every day. This is a very unusual and horrific event.
The foamers at the mouth don't sound much different from the lunatic with the machete when "explaining" his actions, or that idiot who killed himself in Notra Dame in an effort to start a revolution against the Muslims.
R51, no, thankfully we don't have the death penalty.
Hey. waddya know, the son of the woman who convered with the murderers has a surname that sounds a bit Muslim, Afghani/Iranian even. And they seem to be an immigrant family too. Bit of a shame his twitter pic is wielding a firearm.
- Bloody Hell!I say!Who'd want toattack a country as standoffish and uninvolved as London.What, did they try the kidney pie?
- How many of them allow women into mosques, R57?
How many of them would NOT prefer Sharia law?
How many of them allow women to live away from home, dress without covering, choose their own husband and have premarital sex without punishment? My blond-haired, blue-eyed Bosnian building super in his 20s required his wife wear dresses below her knee, wear her hair up and wear a scarf over it. It's not just middle easterners who restrict women.
I've been to central Asia and was told how to dress and speak as was my friend who had gone to Africa and Indonesia to do medical relief work. She had a machine gun pointed at her in Banda Aceh, I was surrounded by men in Bukhara who didn't like how I was dressed.
You do know that women are human beings who deserve equal rights, don't you R57?
- [quote]Hey. waddya know, the son of the woman who convered with the murderers
- [quote]"I killed him because he killed Muslims and I am fed up with people killing Muslims in Afghanistan they have nothing to do there.”
He's not wrong with the logic, although the solution is a poor one.
- [quote] You see, immigrants need a good education to learn the language properly and thus adapt to the culture. That's one reason why America is so fucked up, the educational system is fucking shitty
I guarantee you that every Muslim immigrant to the US learns English properly in our school system.
- The killers were not insane. The woman who talked to them said they weren't.
- Bandaran sounds Egyptian
- When a gruop march the streets with signs like "democracy and freedom on death row", "Islam will dominate the world" and keep yelling Jihad, you'd think people will realize they might not be friendly.
At this point, immigration is not the problem, Islamism is.
- [quote] The muslim girls I went to middle school with in Norway were pressured by their parents to become doctors, or other respected and good professions, though mainly doctors. And those girls were a lot less religious than their parents.
Are they married to non-Muslims? Did they choose their own husbands? Were they free to spend the night with and move in with a man before marrying him?
- R66, "the son of the woman who conversed with the murderers".
Hey, shithead at r65, most Muslims in Britain and Europe are perfectly decent, law-abiding citizens who (unlike you) aren't extremists and just want to get on peacefully with their own lives. About a third of the shit on this thread is your frenzied, hate-filled ravings. On an intellectual level, you're no different from the murderers, with your irrational, idiotic hate.
- R68, I didn't mean just the language, I meant the quality of the education in general, the amount of help given to those who struggle in school, and the access to it. Not to mention the insane costs, and the debt American college students have. I really wonder how that will turn out. Does nobody get that good education is the key to making successful adults (especially out of kids of immigrants, who need that to transition well), as opposed to the rioting youths in Sweden who's schools were broken and crappy?
- [quote]My blond-haired, blue-eyed Bosnian building super in his 20s required his wife wear dresses below her knee, wear her hair up and wear a scarf over it. It's not just middle easterners who restrict women.
I taught ESL in Chicago at the height of the Bosnian conflict and when the U.S. began to accept refugees from Bosnia (and Croatia). Without fail, the men and the women were secular and westernized in every way. However, some of my students reported that back home some people were beginning to take up Muslim practices (not drinking alcohol (!), attending Friday services, women covering up). I recall reading about it, too. Very often when a minority is subjugated or persecuted they begin to cling to remnants of ethnicity as a way of maintaining identity under conflict. An unfortunate by-product of Serbian Orthodox Christian ethnic cleansing of Bosnians.
- R73, they are completely free to choose their own husbands and live their own lives. One of those girls wore a hijab when she was a teen because she thought her curly hair was ugly. Now she doesn't. Out of her own free will. Most immigrant muslims are not radical at all, especially not the kids who have grown up in the public educational system and become properly integrated.
- Islam...the religion of Peace? BULLSHIT
- The finest police force in the world!!!!
- Hate-filled idiot at r73, we know that Islam is a conservative religion and that many Muslim communities are socially conservative. There's not much difference between the situation of Muslim girls in the UK today and Greek-Cypriot girls in the UK 20-30 years ago, when I was growing up in that community, or how most young women in the West were raised up until the early 1960s. Society and attitudes change. Are you going to get all hysterical because Muslim girls don't have sex before marriage? What is it to do with you what the girls r62 went to school with in Norway did or didn't do sexually? Are you Anders Breivik or something? He has similar views to you on Muslim girls in Norway. Presumably you'd find an excuse for him, however.
And, what does the sexual activity of young Muslim women have to do with these murderers? You really are a moron and can't even see that the ferocity and extreme nature of your own response is not that far from the fundamentalist mindset that drives terrorists.
- [quote] of the education in general, the amount of help given to those who struggle in school, and the access to it.
There are no worries at all about Muslim immigrants in US schools getting along. They don't need special help.
And -- what about those liberated female Muslims in Norway? Married to non-Muslims? Choose their own husbands? Allowed to cohabitate before marriage?
I am not saying anything hateful. You are the one using obscenities at me, and insinuating US schools can't teach Muslim immigrants when there is no evidence of this at all. You are the one comparing people chatting on a message board to people who have just hacked a man to death on the street. You are the one who sounds hate-filled and frenzied.
- Insanity, it's like the movie highlander in the streets of London.
- And there are plenty of Muslims like those R77 describes here in the U.S., too, should anyone think otherwise.
- R81, I already responded about the female muslims in R77. Proper integration and economic and job opportunity in life diminishes radicalization. Poor crime ridden places will increase radicalization. Norway is one of the most peaceful countries because it's rich, and socialist. "You are the one comparing people chatting on a message board to people who have just hacked a man to death on the street." ...What? Jeez, I haven't said a single hateful thing. You sound like a dramaqueen.
- Any time you assholes want to put your money where your mouth is and send yourselve back to where your families came from, it's fine with me, you thieving, genocidal, corrupt, destructive, lying pile of European asylum-speaking trash.
- ""Are you going to get all hysterical because Muslim girls don't have sex before marriage?""
Muslim girls are murdered by their families if they have sex before marriage. It's called "honor killing."
- R81, why are you so obsessed with the sex-lives of Muslim girls in Norway or the US? Seriously, that is your pathetic excuse as to why you're on an anti-Islamic hate campaign, like your murderer idol Anders Breivik?
- I'd love to do that, R85. Scotland would be a far better place to be than the US right now.
- Enough with this Norway is the perfect place. Some of us have been alive longer than a day and remember Oslo nicknamed as the Rape capital just what, two years ago? All this "they are just like us" campaign is meant to amend Oslo's bad reputation.
- Is there anywhere (nice) that the Muslims are not trying to take over?
- ""On an intellectual level, you're no different from the murderers""
Really? Did the poster say that muslims should be murdered because they are muslim? Because the killers in London killed a UK soldier because he was a UK soldier. I don't see any call for murder, killing, or hurting muslims. I agree that you who are calling others "shitheads" and "shit stirrers" and "moron" are the ones who sound violent and crazy, making false equivalencies and accusing others of raving when you guys are cursing and calling names. That's raving.
I think you are just trolls.
- "Some of us have been alive longer than a day and remember Oslo nicknamed as the Rape capital"
That's right, I remember that. In 2006 Oslo had 6x more rape cases than NYC. And 2011 saw the highest number of rape cases in Oslo's sexual assault clinic.
- Let me promise you, as gay men, they want you dead. The'll fuck other men to keep their women pure but think YOU are sub-human. Many are wonderful people but most all despise what you are and how you love.
- [quote] And 2011 saw the highest number of rape cases in Oslo's sexual assault clinic.
I'm sure it has nothing to do with immigrants because Norway perfectly integrates and educates all immigrants and gives them a high standard of living which prevents crime. Everybody knows that! And why would immigrants target women for violent crime? That would never happen in Norway.
- [quote] highest number of rape cases in Oslo's sexual assault clinic.
Well! That sounds like someone in Norway is obsessed with sex!
- People on this thread have lost a grip of themselves. Could you all dish out a few more non sequiturs?
- R91, that poster has decided that all Islam is evil, just as the murderers have decided that all "westerners" (which they are too) are evil. Similar logic. Just as "they all hate you and want to destroy your civilisation" is similar logic.
I'd also like to know what that poster thinks of Anders Breivik, who shares similar to views to him/her on the presence of Muslims in Norway, as do some of the trolls who just turned up.
- Where did she say Muslims were evil, r97? You are the one using words like evil . Sounds like he is a she and had been harassed by Muslims in another country. I do not see her using words like evil. I see you doing that.
At any rate, it looks like it's a good thing lots of liberal Muslims who love personal freedom and are not criminals are moving to Norway and getting integrated.. It sounds like the Norwegians in Oslo are very crime ridden with all of those sexual assaults. The Muslim émigrés can only make things better.
- [quote]They are British Muslims. They are home you great eejit.
"YOU people will never be safe". "Get rid of YOUR government". "A British soldier is an eye for an eye".
Yeah...I don't think that guy considers Great Britain "home".
- "YOU..." ,means non-Muslims, not non-British.
This is depressing
- So who was the poor guy who was attacked? I haven't found a name or photo.
- [quote] I grew up in a good, rich commune that integrated immigrants well, were there were good free schools and plenty jobs. You see, immigrants need a good education to learn the language properly and thus adapt to the culture. That's one reason why America is so fucked up, the educational system is fucking shitty. And some schools teach creationism, for fuck's sake. America doesn't understand the importance of good education, but Norway sees it as a human right
Police worry that Oslo’s gang culture has become more widespread and more complex. Newspaper Aftenposten reported on Tuesday that gang battles motivated by revenge, territory and drug-related profits are on the increase.
Police confiscated a total of 22 firearms linked to organized crime last year, and 21 so far this year. Many weapons are believed to be in circulation.
Since January last year, there have been more than 11 shootings on the streets of Oslo. At least six were linked to criminal gangs, according to police calculations. Gang members have carried out both murders and attempted murders, and “none of these crimes has been solved, which raises the level of tension level,” Einar Aas, head of the Oslo Police District’s organized crime unit, told Aftenposten.
Aas said that profits from drug sales form the basis for the gangs’ existence. “Gangs are the most potent, organized criminals we are working against,” he said, adding that battles are increasingly being fought over market share and sales territory.
[bold] Many former recruits and runners for the old gangs have formed new gangs in recent years, some with links to Albanian criminals.[/bold] All told, gangs in Oslo are now believed capable of mobilizing more than 100 people on each side.
Police reapplying pressure
There are parallels now to the situation in 2006, when [bold] tensions between the Pakistani-dominated “Young Guns” and “B-Gang” (B-gjengen) led to an open gun battle during broad daylight at Oslo’s popular Aker Brygge complex on the waterfront. Hundreds of shocked passers-by witnessed the incident, which was part of a string of related shootings around the capital. [/bold]
Many key gang members were arrested, and others fled the country. Norway’s Ministry of Justice granted NOK 6 million yearly to a major police operation tackling gang violence. Police actions included 24-hour surveillance of gang members, and clamping down even on minor offenses. They later also used dialogue for intelligence-gathering. The operation ceased in 2011.
Gang violence exploded again last year, however, and Oslo police now have an extra NOK 5 million (USD 860,000) in funding this year for surveillance and investigation of gangs. They are working closely with other police districts, particularly Romerike, where some key gang members have their base.
Good thing those Muslim immigrants are getting such a good education and adapting to the rich culture of Norway. Here in the US, we can only wish to have such a great educational system that results in such good integration into culture. Way to go, Norway. You are a guiding light for your educational system which results in a lack of islamic ghettoes or subcultures.
- [quote]"YOU people will never be safe". "Get rid of YOUR government". "A British soldier is an eye for an eye".
[quote]Yeah...I don't think that guy considers Great Britain "home".
Sound exactly like the Tea Party in the United States.
- Why, again, do countries like Sweden and Norway import Muslims into their country? It would seem that any other group of asylum-seeking immigrants would be a better option.
- [quote]"You people will never be safe."
I just knew we hadn't heard the last of Ann Romney
- This whole thing sounds totally insane.
My guess is that the attack was drug-fueled. Sort of like the guy in Florida who was high on bath salts, who started eating the face off the homeless man.
I saw a video documentary on Liberia, in which the young men were part of the country's "army," and they pretty much behaved like this, and they used drugs to fuel their "bravery." It was scary and disturbing.
The only difference now is that they seem to have brought that culture to London.
- They've been rioting in Stockholm for 3 NIGHTS. 30 fires!!!!!
- Lets get real and stop being politically correct: Multiculturalism does NOT work.
- [quote] My guess is that the attack was drug-fueled. Sort of like the guy in Florida who was high on bath salts, who started eating the face off the homeless man.
The woman who talked to the attackers (and is seen in picture) said they weren't drunk or drugged.
"“He was not high, he was not on drugs, he was not an alcoholic or drunk, he was just distressed, upset. He was in full control of his decisions and ready to everything he wanted to do"
- So what do you realistically propose, r108? Segregated nations? Lol.
- R106, the Florida cannibal tested positive for nothing but weed.
- Threads like these really bring the Jewish slime zionist Nazi cockroaches from their holes.
- People keep saying these Middle Eastern people need better educations. Middle Eastern people including Jews become more group-orientated the higher education they get. Several of the 9/11 attackers were college educated, so were the Boston Bombers, Osama bin Laden etc. The Middle East is becoming more racical not less.
- While not all Muslims are violent, but it sure seems that the incidents of violence perpetrated by believers are higher. Higher than those anti-abortion baptists.
Every time there is some slight against the Muslim religion, there are death threats by believers.
- Nobody is saying middle easterners need better educations, R113
And we're not talking about middle easterners, we're taking about Muslims. The majority of Muslims live outside of the middle east.
- How is the brave woman an expert on the condition of the murderers? She seems a little too sympathetic...
- Muslims support violence. These acts of violence are the result of that. They just don't happen out of thin air. What you see is old Muslims fostering hatred and young Muslims carrying out the attacks.
- Everyone is so calm like this isn't that unusual. Has England really become that bad?
- [quote] Everyone is so calm like this isn't that unusual. Has England really become that bad?
England -- London in particular -- has a long history iof beheadings, so it's not unusual
- [quote]So what do you realistically propose, [R108]? Segregated nations? Lol
Japan does it well
- I wonder why they seek Western freedoms when they don't desire to promote them. There's plenty of people out there that deserve immigration status, why let these clowns in over the more deserving?
The problem I have is the non-radical islamists don't even try to reel in their fanatical freaks. At least we try to make a mockery of our Westboro Baptist and Pat Robertson freaks. But They just sit back and watch in fear I guess. Do they actually agree and that's why they're silent? Why don't they ostracize them?
I don't care for their religion because they don't just evolve. I don't care if it's politically incorrect to think this, but I don't want them in my neighborhood. But they're starting to show up here and I wonder why they're here...especially when I see a man leading a woman dressed in a heavy black burqa by hand down a residential street on a hot, sunny day. She couldn't even get down the sidewalk without tripping over her burqa. It's weird. She couldn't see the flowers blooming in Spring here either.
- The black lady walking by one of the killers in his rant video just passed by with her shopping cart behind her as if nothing was going on.
- Third world problem in first world countries.
I believe in smart immigration. I think Europe and to a great extent, the US, need to rethink its immigration policies.
We have enough crazies in the US. We don't need to import more.
- We still haven't accepted that this is a war to the death. There isn't going to be any peace conference, returning of land, occupation. We will eventually have to kill every damn one of them. There will be many, many horrific things happen before we get there.
- I am actually thinking about carrying a weapon on me for protection. But how does one defend yourself against 2 machetes? And how does one know when some deranged freak is going to start attacking you? I've never been afraid to walk the streets, but now I am. How the world has changed for the worse.
- [quote]We still haven't accepted that this is a war to the death. There isn't going to be any peace conference, returning of land, occupation. We will eventually have to kill every damn one of them. There will be many, many horrific things happen before we get there
[quote]I am actually thinking about carrying a weapon on me for protection. But how does one defend yourself against 2 machetes? And how does one know when some deranged freak is going to start attacking you? I've never been afraid to walk the streets, but now I am. How the world has changed for the worse
These are both so very true. But, what's worse is that people who were defending these Muslims. They'll all be F&F'd.
- R126 you're a nut
- "Why, again, do countries like Sweden and Norway import Muslims into their country?"
I believe it is political. The 1% wanting to make sure that no country or society is too progressive, or too stable, or too organized - they want there to be instability, fractured societies and backward forces to drag societies down. A progressive, politically aware society is one that will take away power from the 1%.
- I've F&F'd you, R127
[quote]I believe it is political. The 1% wanting to make sure that no country or society is too progressive, or too stable, or too organized - they want there to be instability, fractured societies and backward forces to drag societies down. A progressive, politically aware society is one that will take away power from the 1%.
Unfortunately, some people are buying into it.
- I don't know. I think a lot of Muslims are quite normal, non-radicalised people. I live in the UK and I was talking to my driving instructor this morning (during our lesson) and he's Muslim. You could substitute "Muslim" for "Gay" and it's a pretty similar experience. He said, "Something like this happens and aside from how horrible it is, as a Muslim, you just think, 'Oh no. Here we go again.'"
He said he and people like him - who are the vast majority of Muslims - feel a sense of responsibility to remain calm, to pull together with the rest of the British community (which is what they are - British) and put their best selves forward so that people can see they are not all like that.
He said these criminals (that's the word he used) who call themselves Muslim don't even know what it means, that they aren't really Muslim but radicalised, insane criminals; they are small in number but become representative of the entire community in many people's eyes.
I felt sorry for my friend and sympathised a lot with being demonised by people who know nothing about me or my people - and yet, their fear and ignorance rules and serves to make me a prisoner in my own society.
My friend said that country comes first and that is what he teaches his children. That we must protect our country from these criminals and terrorists. He said he came to the UK - about 30 years ago - because it is a better place and he has a better life. He escaped from the violence in his own country (which i think is Pakistan). He is a very nice man. I always find the Muslim people I interact with in London to be very nice, very fair and polite people. They are thoughtful and intelligent in a way that a lot of native Westerners are not.
- [quote]You could substitute "Muslim" for "Gay" and it's a pretty similar experience.
You do know Muslims call for gays to be killed, R130, don't you?
- Muslim organizations in the UK have already condemned the attacks, per the Guardian article.
- Does your instructor know that you're gay?
- No all muslims DO NOT call for gays to be killed. You pathetic fag.
- There must be a huge number of ignorant, bigoted people on Datalounge for so many on this thread to be treating all Muslims as if they were the same as these machete-wielding radicals. They don't exemplify most Muslims any more than the people who kill abortion doctors exemplify all Christians, or than Karl Rove exemplifies all atheists.
- [quote]You pathetic fag.
F&F for you, R134.
- [quote]You could substitute "Muslim" for "Gay" and it's a pretty similar experience.
The gay extremists flew a hijacked plane into a skyscraper because they wanted to kill Americans and make its citizens live in fear.
The gay court ordered the Muslim men to be beheaded because they were discovered to be Muslim.
- [quote]You could substitute "Muslim" for "Gay" and it's a pretty similar experience.
Muslims are hanged in Iran for being Muslim.
- Erm, the substitution was obviously meant in terms of the blanket demonisation of a people. Like if somebody decided that because Jeffrey Dahmer was gay then it followed logically that all gay people were serial-killing cannibals, etc. But, y'know, whatever. Carry on.
- [quote]Erm, the substitution was obviously meant in terms of the blanket demonisation of a people. Like if somebody decided that because Jeffrey Dahmer was gay then it followed logically that all gay people were serial-killing cannibals, etc. But, y'know, whatever. Carry on.
No, you're backtracking and you know it. It can't be denied that gays are killed by Muslims. But, y'know, whatever. Pick and choose your own facts.
- R140, I don't need you to tell me what I'm doing nor is it productive for you to twist my words to suit your own paranoid fears of other cultures.
For the record, strict Muslims believe adulterers should be killed too.
And there's a difference between Muslims in the West, who have more nuanced positions on such things, and Muslims in the East who obviously suffer from poverty, lack of education and a very strict, majority Muslim culture.
Muslims in the West tend to be fair-minded people who consider their faith to be a personal challenge for them and not, as their Christian counterparts would have it, something to be evangelised and imposed on others outside of their faith.
- You've been F&F'd, R141. See my post at R41.
Muslims in the civilized world are still homophobic. They vote against gay rights.
Also, I'd be curious to how you figured "I twisted your words"?
- [quote] It can't be denied that gays are killed by Muslims.
It can, however, be denied that all or most Muslims kill gays, just as it can be denied that all or most gays are paranoid, racist, xenophobe freaks despite the behavior of some gay DLers.
- R142 OMG! You F&F someone who politely disagrees with you?
You are more like a crazy jihadist than you think!
- Then what was colonialism and slavery about,r56?
- [quote]OMG! You F&F someone who politely disagrees with you?
I will not stand for people supporting homophobic Muslims. If anyone thinks otherwise they should leave this gay board. Not one of these people has ever been to a Muslim ghetto, and make no mistake if Muslims could get away with killing a gay, they would.
- Bill Maher had a "NEW RULE" a while ago (I'm paraphrasing):
If you want people to stop thinking your religion is medieval, stop beheading people!
- These murderers, or at least one of them, were apparently of Nigerian origin (i.e. raised in the UK but of Nigerian parentage). Actually, one was a convert from a devout Christian family to what he thought is Islam. Nigerians and West Africans in Britain are some of the most solid, upright and hard-working people who raise their children with good values and pump into them the idea that if they work hard they can be achievers.
These scum murderers are nothing to do with British Muslims or minorities. They are freaks with their own bizarre view of things.
- Exactly, R147.
- R146, you are mad. We're not supporting homophobic Muslims, we're saying that Muslims are not all violent, indiscriminate murderers, as you and some of your friends are trying to claim. All you are trying to do is stoke up the same generic hatred for and fear of you are accusing Muslims of having.
We're gay too, you know, and it's not your job to decide that you represent all gays or are the voice of gays vis-a-vis Muslims. Your disgusting views have nothing to do with me, so stop thinking you are speaking up for gay people.
- Are all Nigerians and West Africans Muslim?
If not, why are you lumping them all together?
- [quote]We're gay too, you know, and it's not your job to decide that you represent all gays or are the voice of gays vis-a-vis Muslims. Your disgusting views have nothing to do with me, so stop thinking you are speaking up for gay people.
All I want is a land free from homophobia. If you like Muslims so much why don't go and live in Iran. But, be warned - they don't like you as much as you like them.
Muslims have always been enthusiastic practitioners of colonialism and slavery.
- [quote] My friend said that country comes first and that is what he teaches his children.
He's not telling you the truth. Islam comes first. But he is telling you what you want to hear. I dont blame him for telling you what you want to hear. He doesn't want any backlash. Why would he? Better to tell everyone to remain calm.
Funny how I never heard Londoners saying anything good about Irish Catholics during the IRA bombing campaigns. They were never saying, "Most Irish Catholics are good people and are just like us." Funny how that goes. they certainly bend over backwards for the Muslims. I like how "the brave woman" described this bloodstained guy. ""“He was not high, he was not on drugs, he was not an alcoholic or drunk, he was just distressed, upset. He was in full control of his decisions and ready to everything he wanted to do"
He was distressed and upset. I wonder if she would have used the same words to describe an IRA gunman who had just blown someone's head off in the street?
- I was going to post that, R154. They know what to say to your face. If Islamic leaders were truly saying "cut this shit out, fools" behind the scenes, incidents like this would not happen. But they don't, they fuel the fire.
A good way to get them to reveal their true face is to bring up Israel. The most seemingly mild mannered Muslim will start foaming at the mouth within minutes if you just say the "I" word.
- R153, I don't "like" Muslims so much, I just don't hate them simply because they're Muslims like you.
I'd like a world free of bigotry, hatred and prejudice and hatred, but that's hard to achieve with bigots like you around.
- I think this is a game changer, much more than the attack on the tube/bus where anyone could be killed.
- "Behind the scenes"? Is there some secret Muslim meeting you think this guy goes to that no one knows about? Or do you think this guy's mosque advocates violence?
- [quote]I'd like a world free of bigotry, hatred and prejudice and hatred, but that's hard to achieve with bigots like you around.
We gays are more bigoted than Muslims? Really?
- After looking at the footage from the Guardian, All I could think of while that animal was spewing his "political " garbage, was the body of the poor guy lying in the street.
I'm glad the women were brave enough to go to him and pray, or attempt to bring comfort even though he was obviously dead. At least they were shielding him from further degradation. He was someone's son. He has loved ones out here, and they can look at this video and see him lying in the street, and I find it very painful.
These men aren't terrorists. They are just thrill killers seeking to place their behavior in a political context. I'd chop them in pieces and send them to Hell, one inch at a time.
- [quote] These men aren't terrorists. They are just thrill killers seeking to place their behavior in a political context
They are killing in a religious context, not a political one. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth is what they said. Nothing political about that.
- I remember in "Religulous" when Bill Maher spoke with the Muslim rapper in London and the Muslim woman in the Netherlands about Theo Van Gogh's murder. Neither would really budge on the idea of jihad and were super evasive. To them, their leaders had no responsibility to tone down violent rhetoric.
Also, google "Religulous Islam". I'm amazed Bil Maher hasn't been killed by a Muslim yet. They are violently angry that they were portrayed as violently angry.
- I'm thinking about getting some shark proof cages, putting 4 little wheels on them and start selling them in London and other European cities with large Muslim population. I might get rich!
- THIS IS A HOAX?
- [quote]Late Wednesday, riot police fanned out in Woolwich as about 50 men waving the flag of the far-right English Defense League gathered, singing nationalistic songs and shouting obscenities about the Quran
Anyone from this thread attend?
- I'm curious how many of these Muslim defenders would go to into one of these Muslim ghettos alongside their partners. Shall we guess how long they'd last?
- [quote] I remember in "Religulous" when Bill Maher spoke with the Muslim rapper in London and the Muslim woman in the Netherlands about Theo Van Gogh's murder. Neither would really budge on the idea of jihad and were super evasive.
Over the years Bill Maher said he has questioned many Muslims about the fatwah that was put out on Salmon Rushdie and he couldn't find anyone who would outright say that a Muslim shouldn't be killed for a book he wrote about religion.
- [quote] English Defense League gathered, singing nationalistic songs
What's a nationalistic song in England? "God Save the Queen"? "Jerusalem"?
- 10 German bombers in the air, R168?
- The reality is all cultures are not the same. What doesn't assimmulate and evolve needs to be elsewhere where they can thrive among their own kind. In their own land, they can be what and how they want and it's their business, rightfully so, not our headache. This all everyone is the exactly the same is a lie and always will be. We don't need and why should we desire every culture on the planet living on top of each other in dense places? Of course there's conflict and will always forever be conflict because the truth is these two dissimilar cultures simply are not designed to mix. Why are we trying to make them like us is the question I have. If they want "freedoms," let them duke it out among each other for power and control. It's insanity to bring them into your own yard. We need to bring all our soldiers home also and get out of their space.
- R41/R142, if you have reached the point where you are unable to tell the difference between civil, informed discourse about the real diversity in the world and homophobic defense of hateful, insane radical Islamists, you're not doing any of us gay people a favor.
You fall on both ends of the "insufferable" spectrum simultaneouls: Mary! and cunt.
- [quote] The Muslim Council of Britain condemned the attacks and called for solidarity between communities. “Our thoughts are with the victim and his family. This attack on a member of the Armed Forces is dishonorable, and no cause justifies this murder. This action will no doubt heighten tensions on the streets of the United Kingdom. We call on all our communities, Muslim and non-Muslim, to come together in solidarity to ensure the forces of hatred do not prevail.”
Dishonorable. Not horrifying, not brutal, not unimaginable. Dishonorable.
It then basically goes on to ask that nobody beat up Muslims, which seems to be their main worry after some random guy was hacked to death by extremists.
- The vast majority of people are peaceful, R170.
The task is to weed out the ones that are not.
- How about this?
Can we agree that it is a bad thing to cut peoples' heads off in support of any cause?
And that religious and gender bias and homophobia are bad?
And that not all people belonging to a religion or who are members of a religion similar in some ways to their are responsible for the actions of others?
And that many of the posters here are lunatics, hysterics, mean-spirited creeps or trolls?
- Nigerian cuisine is scrumptious. Love their rice dishes.
- [quote] We need to bring all our soldiers home also and get out of their space.
I absolutely agree with this. Aside from Afghanistan, we have an air base in Kyrgystan which we need to vacate. If the US needs a military base in that part of the world, why not go to Georgia?
- For those keeping track, this is another violent incident that did not involve militant atheist.
- I haven't heard any lunacy or hysterics, R174. Nobody has called for Muslims to be killed or hurt. Nobody has called for all Muslims to be deported. We have said that there really isn't a good reason to import people with such different values into cultures those people do not like and do not make an effort to assimilate into.
- There are plenty of people who wouldn't mind emigrating to Western Europe. Poles, Moldavians, Latvians, Russians. Hmm.. Why wouldn't Swedes prefer Russian immigrants to Muslim immigrants from Africa, the Middle East and Asia, I wonder? I'm sure Swedes are not prejudiced against Russians, right? Swedes pride themselves at being so unbigoted. Same with Norway. Norwegians are just brilliant at bringing in immigrants and putting them all over the country so why not open immigration up to all the Russians who would like to live there? Seems to me that they are discriminating against Russians, who deserve protection from Putin's government as much as Muslims supposedly deserve protection from the governments of their home countries. In fact, i hear Norway is deporting Russians who seek asylum. That's not fair. Why is someone from Pakistan a fair asylum-seeker while someone from Ossetia is not?
Mexicans probably wouldn't mind going to the UK or Denmark. Romania is a very poor country, why not bring in Romanians to live and work and become citizens of western Europe and north America? Why are Muslims being given priority as immigrants? It doesn't make sense.
- R179 No
- You want lunacy and hysterics, R174, just go to R179's link and watch that guy Christopher Green.
- [quote] I haven't heard any lunacy or hysterics
I would say that F&F'ing anyone who disagrees with you, even if they do so in a reasoned, civil manner, is lunacy. It's also extremely immature.
- I have heard a rumor that they lured the guy they killed by pretending to have drugs for sale.
I wonder when the name of the victim will be released.
- [quote]if you have reached the point where you are unable to tell the difference between civil, informed discourse about the real diversity in the world and homophobic defense of hateful, insane radical Islamists, you're not doing any of us gay people a favor.
Gay people supporting homophobes, aren't doing gay people a favor.
[quote]You fall on both ends of the "insufferable" spectrum simultaneouls: Mary! and cunt.
I'm proud of both. Call me whatever you want, but I'm right.
[quote][Can we agree]that religious and gender bias and homophobia are bad?
Good luck getting a Muslim to agree with you on that, R174.
- Who say's they're not, R180?
- R185: Here's a fun fact for you. In the recent debate over equal marriage in England and Wales every Muslim MP voted in favour.
Now, please go and let your head explode somewhere else.
- [quote]Here's a fun fact for you. In the recent debate over equal marriage in England and Wales every Muslim MP voted in favour.
And Muslim civilians, what are their thoughts on equal marriage?
- I'm thinking these guys were probably juiced to the gills
- Who say's they're not, [R180]?
How many train bombings have these Poles, Russians, Latvians, Mexicans committed in Western Europe? How many street beheadings? How many commercial jet plane attacks? How many times have they rioted for days in France, Britain, Sweden? How many guns have been pulled off of them by street gang units in Oslo?
- [quote]This attack on a member of the Armed Forces is dishonorable, and no cause justifies this murder.
- [quote]Why wouldn't Swedes prefer Russian immigrants to Muslim immigrants from Africa, the Middle East and Asia, I wonder?
Its a tough call. Would you rather have filthy religious nuts or filthy, ignorant gangsters?
- Are uncivilized third world savages the REAL problem? Not really. Civilized nations will not stop the carnage and cultural rot until they deal with PC, which is the real evil in the world today.
- R190, My question was who said Sweden was preventing those people from emigrating?
- Yes, because the Mexicans and Russians are never violent at home.
- [quote] Its a tough call. Would you rather have filthy religious nuts or filthy, ignorant gangsters?
I say, are you prejudiced against ALL Russians?! That's unacceptable! You can't lump everyone together.
- In a couple of hundred years, the whole world will be ruled by conservative Islamists, and our descendents will look back on this secular century with wonderment and longing.
- R193, You're apparently a first-world ignorant, uncivilized bigot, so care to jump off a bridge?
Charity begins at home.
- Ludicrous rot R193. PC started as a joke among leftists. How it ever became an article of gospel faith to Misogynist Racist American Males is a story for the psychiatric profession to tell, but not one for the factual history books.
- [quote]In a couple of hundred years, the whole world will be ruled by conservative Islamists, and our descendents will look back on this secular century with wonderment and longing.
- Hey R190 how many people have the Muslims poisoned with polonium? Oh, that's right, none.
How many depleted uranium weapons have they fired in your neighborhood? How many experiments of chemical and biological agent diffusion have they carried out on the unsuspecting populace of your Euro cities?
- [quote] so care to jump off a bridge?
You are so hateful and violent in your responses.
- [quote]Ludicrous rot [R193]. PC started as a joke among leftists. How it ever became an article of gospel faith to Misogynist Racist American Males is a story for the psychiatric profession to tell, but not one for the factual history books.
PC people should be shot. It's a necessary first step toward saving the civilized world and its worthwhile cultures.
- PC is a term coined by the right after they became indignant when they were called on wanton bigotry.
- R187 is wrong.
[quote]Among the dissenters was Gillingham and Rainham MP Rehman Chishti, who has consistently opposed gay marriage, describing it as a "redefinition". He was the only Medway MP who spoke in the debate, telling members: "On religious organisations, the minister will know that 5% of the UK population is Muslim. What proportion of the Muslim community responded to the consultation? How many were for it and how many were against it? My understanding is that not a single mosque responded by supporting the redefinition of marriage."
- That's precious, R202.
Should I try to be more PC?
- [quote]In a couple of hundred years, the whole world will be ruled by conservative Islamists, and our descendents will look back on this secular century with wonderment and longing.
Sick and sad, isn't it? And we could stop the slide into that mess today simply by destroying political correctness. PC people are masochistic self-hating human filth.
- They've identified the victim. Looks like he had sizemeat, what a shame.
- Go ahead and rant and rave as you circle the drain, R207 (and all of your other personas).
- As you can see from slime like r204, the goal is to shield the worst ideas and behavior on Earth from criticism by calling people "bigots" for telling the truth. People like r204 WANT the repressive barbaric Islamic future.
- Hello trash at r209. What brings you here today? No beheadings on your calendar?
- Glub glub boys. Glub glub.
- There used to be another word for PC - appeasement
"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last" - Churchill
"No man can tame a tiger into a kitten by stroking it. There can be no appeasement with ruthlessness. There can be no reasoning with an incendiary bomb." -FDR
- My comments have nothing to do with Islam, per se.
But the idea that you are superior is laughable.
You're just too cowardly to do anything radical.
- [quote] how many people have the Muslims poisoned with polonium?
How many pet dogs have European non-Muslims poisoned in Spain and the UK? Oh yeah -- scores
- [quote] How many depleted uranium weapons have they fired in your neighborhood?
That's what happens when you harbor people who attack the military headquarters of another country without warning. It's called "payback."
- This is indirectly caused by the fall of communism. The absurd notion that feudal Arab despots are the future commanders of the world is one that would have been laughed at by anyone with the Communist or American Babbitt belief in progress.
Nothing is more ephemeral than the power these Sauds wield, and without Saudi state support, the stain of Wahabbism would be wiped out worldwide in about ten years.
This is not a conflict between the West and Muslim civilization. This is a conflict within Muslim civilization.
- [quote] How many experiments of chemical and biological agent diffusion have they carried out on the unsuspecting populace of your Euro cities?
Link to these secret conspiracies please. I'm sure the source is beyond reproach.
- Grow some balls, R213.
Everybody is not out to get you.
- "No people in history have ever survived who thought they could protect their freedom by making themselves inoffensive to their enemies"
- Let's hope someone is out to get you r219. I wish them success.
- I think most non-Muslim people are just fucking sick of this shit.
We've tried the PC shit. It hasn't worked.
- These attacks will mysteriously stop after the British get smart and start attacking not mosques but Saudi princes on shopping sprees. Knock a couple dozen of them and there wouldn't be ANY trouble.
- [quote]You're just too cowardly to do anything radical.
I know you're ill-motivated vermin, but you inadvertently make a valid point. Civilized people can become reluctant to defend themselves, which is the whole point here.
- It has never been tried R223. R216, Iraq did not attack our military headquarters. Ever. Indeed, I don't even think they threatened to.
- The US could have won by using WMDs, but it would have been a very short victory.
- Bring it on, R221.
That's a major difference between us--I don't think anyone *is* out to get me, and I'm not afraid if they *do* try to get me.
- I'm not talking about civilized people, R224.
I'm talking about you.
- "No people in history have ever survived who thought they could protect their freedom by making themselves inoffensive to their enemies"
What stupid nonsense. SWITZERLAND, dumbass. HELLO? Do you have a brain?
- wrong thread, sorry
- North Vietnam had a military alliance with Russia and China that would have obliged them to come to its aid.
If we had nuked Hanoi, we might have caused a nuclear war.
Some of you have ZERO understanding of the world. Like, really truly NONE.
- I still want R187 or someone to answer my question at R188.
- [quote]I'm not talking about civilized people, [R224], I'm talking about you.
You certainly don't know me. You're a kook.
- [quote]I don't think anyone *is* out to get me, and I'm not afraid if they *do* try to get me.
Of course not, you're an Islam proponent. You side with violent thug fundies. You benefit from the civilized world not responding to your kind as it should.
- I know enough about you, R233.
- Wrong again, R234.
I don't support Islam at all.
I don't side with violent thug fundies, or any type of fundies, and that includes you.
- The Muslim defenders on this board are fucking nuts. They're the same people who go on and on about how evil Christians and Jews are, but then go crazy when somebody dares to attack a religion that's inherently fundamentalist. Then they yell "racism." It really shows you how far people have fallen in terms of critical thinking skills.
- [quote]The Muslim defenders on this board are fucking nuts. They're the same people who go on and on about how evil Christians and Jews are, but then go crazy when somebody dares to attack a religion that's inherently fundamentalist. Then they yell "racism." It really shows you how far people have fallen in terms of critical thinking skills.
- Right and every time a Christian gay bashes one of us, you go out and tell people to nuke Rome, and that is highly effective. Oh, that hasn't worked?? Gee, I wonder why.
- I vote for feeding all religious nutbags to the loins.
- It's okay not to like a culture that you see causes such repression violence within and outside it's ranks. I think it's okay not to want to have them in your neighborhood. Just because they exist doesn't mean you have to invite them (and the entire world actually) to sit at your dinner table. A place in your home should be reserved for those who exhibit good manners and those who desire to respectfully communicate with you. Anyone who resents your hospitality needs to leave. The entire world does not own your home just because we're all born on the same planet. Some countries are choosing to lose their identity to the lowest common denominator and think they are morally superior for doing so.
- R229, Switzerland voted to ban further minaret construction. Lots of Muslims took offense at that.
- Lots of liberals have an instinctive reaction to defend people they believe to be the victims of discrimination. But it's time to accept (ESPECIALLY as LGBT people) that all these religious lunatics deserve condemnation. I gag every time I see/hear someone spout off the "religion of peace" bullshit.
And a big eye roll to the ones in this thread comparing Muslim immigration in Europe to Mexican immigration in the US. Our immigrants work remedial jobs for piss poor pay, and on the whole don't hurt anyone. And please, no more links dealing with Latino street gangs. We have black street gangs and white supremacists too.
The language barrier is the major block to assimilation here. Luckily we're not dealing with an influx of religious extremists. The Christians are bad enough.
- Pseudo-liberals. Real liberals can differentiate and can think critically. But there's a neoliberalism that's sprung up which is most peculiar because it is both conservative, in some respects, and yet stridently PC in others. The pro-Muslim thing is neoliberalism at its worse.
- I agree, R245
- R154 Actually you are wrong. Most people in Britain knew that the majority of Irish Catholics were good people and would have said it. We have ex IRA men in government now doing as best a job as they can working alongside fundies like the DUP. Unfortunately there are still crazies on both sides. This killing made me think of the poor two soldiers who were gunned down by dissidents a couple of years ago or the killing of two soldiers who went the wrong way one day and were brutally murdered by IRA men. No one from any community condoned their behaviour. The Shankill butchers were equally as nasty.
- To all the defenders: next time you walk through a "Muslim area"--in England--you'd better not be "dressed like a bloody fag":
- [quote]To all the defenders: next time you walk through a "Muslim area"--in England--you'd better not be "dressed like a bloody fag":
The Muslim defenders love not answering that question. They just skirt around it and say "it's extremists".
- The Spectator: British Muslims Denounce The Woolwich Attack
- I love you r89
- I want R141 to answer this question:
[quote]I'm curious how many of these Muslim defenders would go to into one of these Muslim ghettos alongside their partners. Shall we guess how long they'd last?
So, how long, R141? Five seconds or ten?
- What scares me most is that slowly but surely people in the west are changing their values and morals according to the Islamists, without even noticing it.
Who would have thought even a few years ago, that we would accept terrorists blowing up buildings and random bombs and call their leaders “peaceful”, who would have thought that we would accept a beheading in the streets on London and still hear that Islamists are “peaceful people”, who would have thought that Sharia courts would function in Britain and the US and be above the law.
There is a slow but steady acceptance that Islam should never be questioned and criticized and that modern values, such as human rights, do not apply to Islamists and we have no right to demand it of them. Western leaders and the media, other then in Israel which is in a special position of fighting Islamists daily, refuse to touch the subject. Refuse to inform people that there is no mystery behind Jihad or massive immigration; it’s all instructed in the Quran. Islamists follow a religion of war and oppression, it is what it is and it is not confined to the Middle East.
It’s like there’s a veil of silence on the subject. Nobody reports about Christians being slaughtered in Africa or harassed in Lebanon, Libya, Gaza, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Why the double standards? Is the oil money really that powerful? why can't we judge Islamists based on our values of human rights just like we do all other religions?
To lighten up the mood, because this subject depresses me, look what sexual repression can lead to - Egyptian Cleric: Christianity Emerged from Penis Worship!
- [quote]Is the oil money really that powerful?
Yes. I actually wonder what the Middle East would look like if they'd never found oil.
- COMPLETELY AGREE, R253
I think it is political - the way that all the parties (despite the fake "left" and "right" theatrics) are promoting globalism, outsourcing, mass unemployment at home, and the destruction of social-democratic societies. Oil is that powerful, politicians are just bought-out lackeys, the media are lackeys that never tell the truth on this subject. I think they don't want to tell the truth about it because it would unravel all of the lies.
- Good post, R253. You sum it up precisely.
- [R253] Your sentiments mirror my own and I too feel that American and British society has become too PC in regards to having frank and open discourse about radical islamist and terrorists. Decent people do understand that not all muslims believe in the terrorist acts or support them, but the terrorist are doing a fine job in still scaring and terrorizing the rest of us.
In April we had the Boston bombings; in May we have this horrific beheading of a defenseless man. What's in store for June, I shudder... but it's coming, they will not let up.
We cannot just go about business as usual because it just appears as if we're in denial. People have a right to mourn and be angry, but we also have to have the courage to say no more and become more aware and more vigilant. And I do dare say, just go ahead and shoot to kill, not shoot to wound. These monsters are useless amongst a human society. And it does pain me to admit this.
just sad as hell
- sing it r244.
I am one of those who is constantly reminding others that these folks have a right to celebrate their religion.
But....let's be real here: Religion SUCKS!
- So yeah, this is what we have over Europe: OUR immigrants are better than YOUR immigrants!
- PC is ideological fascism.
- [quote]Decent people do understand that not all muslims believe in the terrorist acts or support them, but the terrorist are doing a fine job in still scaring and terrorizing the rest of us.
Exactly. The terrorists and their supporters have done a good job of painting as racist and bigoted anyone who notes that these acts are often done in the name of Islam.
- To quote Maya Angelou by way of Oprah: when people show you who they are, believe them.
Islamists have said again and again that their goal is not equality, but takeover. I don't understand why people act like we're projecting these ideas on to them when its so obvious that they won't stop, not even if every Western army was taken out of the middle east and a free state of Palestine was created.
- BBC has a video of one of the killers from a demonstration back in 2007.
- w&w (for the wisdom) for r242
- And THIS is why I didn't vote for Obama. I'm sorry but the right is right about him and the apology tour, the kissing up to terrorists, the fucked up shit with Israel that the USA is doing. Fuck that.
- Really R56?
- Yeah R56, asians are soooo nice.
- Heaven forbid that we should actually pay any attention to why these people do what they do or whether they have legitimate grievances. Far better to just label them "terrorists" and continue spending 50% of our discretionary budget - the sort of money that could feasibly cure cancer - endlessly fighting them.\t
- "Heaven forbid that we should actually pay any attention to why these people do what they do or whether they have legitimate grievances."
I don't know - chopping someone's head off doesn't really scream "please understand me!" in my opinion.
- or a great message
- [quote][[R253]] Your sentiments mirror my own and I too feel that American and British society has become too PC in regards to having frank and open discourse about radical islamist and terrorists.
[quote]PC is ideological fascism.
Brits sure do love screaming "PC"
- [quote]What scares me most is that slowly but surely people in the west are changing their values and morals according to the Islamists, without even noticing it.
Yeah, okay Anders Breivik.
Just say "Muslims"
- [quote]We've tried the PC shit. It hasn't worked.
Screaming "PC" = Freeper
- [quote]Hey [R190] how many people have the Muslims poisoned with polonium? Oh, that's right, none. How many depleted uranium weapons have they fired in your neighborhood? How many experiments of chemical and biological agent diffusion have they carried out on the unsuspecting populace of your Euro cities?
Shhh. Westerners are a peaceful bunch.
- [quote]Right and every time a Christian gay bashes one of us, you go out and tell people to nuke Rome, and that is highly effective. Oh, that hasn't worked?? Gee, I wonder why.
- [quote]In a couple of hundred years, the whole world will be ruled by conservative Islamists, and our descendents will look back on this secular century with wonderment and longing.
Oh, dear, and lulz!
- [italic][R185]: Here's a fun fact for you. In the recent debate over equal marriage in England and Wales every Muslim MP voted in favour.
Now, please go and let your head explode somewhere else.[/quote]
Shhh, you're dealing with rabid white conservatives. They'll never admit that they're stupid.
- uh, R274, screaming PC meant Freeper in 1989. You're a bit behind the times
- [quote]They are killing in a religious context, not a political one. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth is what they said. Nothing political about that.
Sounds like the American "Justice" System, and the majority of Americans.
- The best thing that can be done is for the West to get the fuck out of the Middle East. It's the cause of much of this damage -- centuries worth! I'm lookin' specifically at you Britain!
- And the guy in the video chopping people up isn't "rabid"?
- Exactly r281.
We cry and scream, "Why do they hate us?" when we are attacking and killing men, women and children in their countries.
We support terrorist organizations like Israel to slaughter innocent Palestinians with guns paid for for by our tax dollars.
Acts like this one or 7-11 or 9-11 - while utterly heinous and barbaric - are justified in my opinion as rightful blowback for the terrorism practiced by the United States.
- Britain's imperialism is the major reason the Middle East is so fucked up.
- Substitute "Muslim" for "Christian" and there would not be ONE asshole apologist on this site defending the murderers OR the religion.
Stop conflating Islam with race...it's a mutable, CULTURAL choice and NOT a genetic trait. And I'll be fucked if I'm required to respect,approve or even tolerate someone else's cultural or lifestyle "decision".
You know, the same argument that fundamentalist fuckers of ALL stripes hurl at gays.
Thank you Sheikh Izz ad-Din al-Qassam.
The very essence of "Bleeding Heart Liberal"
I've got one word for you:
- oops...R268 I mean. Sorry 269.
- Am I bovvered?
- The killer's cleric is a radical Muslim as well.
- Did r253 finally get banned for his OCD cuntness? Hope so.
- Sorry, I mean r252 NOT R253.
- I generally have no problem with Muslims, most of the Muslims I've met have been very pleasant.
I do however have a problem with the people on the left (Glenn Greenwald and his fangirls) who believe that every act of violence committed my Muslims in the West is now justifiable because of drones and the Afghan War. Drones and the Afghan War are terrible but a soldier walking down the street in London does not deserve to be hacked to death because of them.
- Middle Eastern people started the fire, not Westerners. The Middle East was the birthplace of civilization. Tribalism was a hallmark even of those early civilizations. The characteristics we see today were there thousands of years ago and have been greatly exacerbated by Islam.
- Because of these killer Muslims, lots of people would love to turn the Middle East into a glass parking lot. Fuck those towel headed camel jockeys.
- Paging Mrs. Lovett!
- I want R278 to answer the question at R188.
- So did they catch the killers?
- R299 - "they" shot them, so, yup, they caught the murdering slime...
- If you've ever been probed and felt violated by the TSA, you can blame the Muslims for it. If you've had to take off your shoes, or had your water bottle confiscated, you can blame the Muslims for that, too.
Buddhists self-immolate to protest. I wish the Muslims would do the same.
- [quote]If you've ever been probed and felt violated by the TSA, you can blame the Muslims for it. If you've had to take off your shoes, or had your water bottle confiscated, you can blame the Muslims for that, too.
You've had to take off your shoes? NO, THE HORROR!
If you've ever had to pay THOUSANDS more in taxes and been denied the right to be married and get the security that comes with it, you can blame the Christians.
I'd go barefoot forever to change that.
- What does that have to do with anything, R302?
- Turning [/italic] off, hopefully.
This thread has really become derailed. Over three hundred posts and no one has commented on whether the victim is attractive or fuckable.
- [quote] f you've ever had to pay THOUSANDS more in taxes and been denied the right to be married and get the security that comes with it, you can blame the Christians.
Do you think your life as a gay man would fair much better in a Muslim country? Are you hoping that they are more enlightened and will grant you and your partner the right to kiss or even be seen in public? Good luck with that!
- R302, answer the question at R188.
- R304, see R208. It got lost in the back and forth between the two nutjobs.
- Whenever something like this happens, I notice internet message boards and online newspaper commenting sections are not filled with messages saying, "I'm a Muslim and I find this horrifying. It's completely wrong and I totally disagree with these maniacs. They should be locked up forever."
When crazy Christians do crazy things, I do notice Christians denouncing the crazies.
- Really? I don't.
- R302/R307 please answer the question I asked you.
- Why are white gay men so bigoted?
- [quote]We cry and scream, "Why do they hate us?" when we are attacking and killing men, women and children in their countries.
They would attack and hate us anyway. The goal isn't to be "left alone", it is to dominate the west with Islam and global jihad. I don't understand why you won't take these people at their word.
- [quote]When crazy Christians do crazy things, I do notice Christians denouncing the crazies.
Bullshit. They say "he wasn't a real Christian" and move on with it.
- Your assumption that everyone posting against Muslims is white proves you are the bigoted one, r311.
- Another day, another crazy Muslim in the news
- Let's not kid ourselves r314. Most of them are white and most of them are of a certain repugnant religious persuasion.
- r312, until we completely withdraw from the Mideast and completely stop supporting Israel's terrorism - they have every right to attack us.
- Why do I have the feeling that even if we completely withdrew from the Middle East, and I mean 100%, they'd still find a reason to hate and attack us.
- R317 they have the right to attack American combat soldiers. They DO NOT have the right to attack American civilians.
- r319, same thing. We allow our tax dollars to be sent to Israel to support Israel's terrorist activities. We also allow our tax dollars to be used to support the American military's terrorist activities.
We are just as culpable as the armed forces.
- The alliance between the world's "left/liberal" forces, the people who are educated and supposedly support human rights and freedom for all, with the most vile, repugnant, fanatic and violent ideology that calls itself Islam, is one of the worst phenomena humanity has ever seen! It's as bad as Nazism and Fascism. They are on a hysterical campaign of shutting up all opposing views and anyone who dares acknowledge reality or criticize Islamonazism is branded a "racist", a lunatic and whatnot. That includes everybody - the media, academics, intellectuals and the common man that is hurt by various manifestations of that vile religion, including muslims themselves, women in particular.
They will not rest until there's is war everywhere and there will be.
- Hyperbole much, r321?
Calling out bigots like yourself and stating that most of the Muslim world is civilized and not bent on killing is not the same as siding with "Islamonazism" (God I love the terms you bigots always churn out!)
You're a bigot. Admit it and move on, asshole.
- Go fuck yourself r322. You're not scaring me with your "bigot" routine. More and more people are starting to see what that vile, dangerous religion is about.
- You know Datalounge is spiraling out of control when debates about Islam drown out a lone sizemeat post.
- Not trying to scare you, bigot. Just calling you for what you are.
- Thank you, R325. He's no different that the people he purports to condemn.
- No r325 that's exactly what leftist scum like you do all the time to anyone who dares tell the truth about Islam. Furthermore, if there's ANY religion that is bigoted, it's Islam - Hates women, hates gays, hates Jews, hates all other non muslims and advocates pedophilia, slavery, rape, deceit, forced conversions, extortion of protection money from the "non believers", murder of all opposition and whatnot.
- Everyone, please join me in F&Fing r327. This is liberal space and your kind is not allowed here. If I knew where you lived I'd kill you myself.
- r327 is right. That is a religion for the most part that hates Jews, hates gays, hates women & enforces it with beheadings, shootings, killings, murder.
- [quote]Everyone, please join me in F&Fing [R327]. This is liberal space and your kind is not allowed here. If I knew where you lived I'd kill you myself.
ROFL. Thanks for proving my point perfectly, Muhammed.
- R329 don't for a minute think we don't know you're also R327.
Change things up a bit if you're trying to fool someone.
- r331 I think you're paranoid. Trolldar again, I'm not r327
- You know wrong. Keep trying.
- Oh it's not the same address, idiot.
But why is it that you fly together, right on time?
- Advocates pedophilia?
- r332 Don't bother. Let the Islam apologizer trash all he wants. He's proving our points perfectly. He/they know there are less and less buyers of those lies every day.
- I agree with R321 and R327.
- This thread really has attracted the foaming-at-the-mouth lunatics.
- You could at least try to change it up a bit, freeper fool.
- We've had numerous back and forth debates about Muslims and radical Islamists on DL before, but I don't recall a thread having gone so far off the rails as this one with so many "foaming-at-the-mouth lunatics" as R338 describes. Not even the Boston bomber threads. Is it because this was such a brazen and personalized attack carried out with blades? Is it because it happened in the UK and we're seeing some rather unhinged British posters? Is it because the attackers aren't as "cute" as the Tsaraev brothers?
- R319 No one has the right to attack anyone. Ok so if they do not have the right to attack American Civilians, why does the American Army have the right to attack Muslim civilians? Do you think the innocent children getting half of their faces blown off (Youtube if you wish to see) by American Soldiers are deserving of the consequences from the actions of others? Do you think the innocent Arab families getting their houses sprayed with sewage/bombed, their electricity and food supplies cut are also deserving?
When you contextualise things and remember the USA and the UK ARE at war, it becomes clearer. Western countries believe they have the right to destroy others withut retaliation. Imperialism.
To those posting regarding Muslims supporting Paedophilia, hating Gays etc. How many Muslims have you conversed with regarding these issues? All 1 Billion? Which is what generalised comments imply when you say 'Muslims'.
- r340 Yeah, because it's perfectly normal and "less loony" to make excuses for a serial killer who's young, hot and wears western clothes, to the point of saying it wasn't his fault.
- [quote] to the point of saying it wasn't his fault.
You seem to be confusing gay men on DL with Tumblr girls. There was commentary about their "hotness," but no sincere attempt at defending them. The usual DL sarcasm that's missing from this thread.
- When are the British police going to interview the killers? They are not that badly injured. I saw the video where they got shot.
- I'm in love with a Nigerian Muslim. He never talks about religion, is very Westernized, educated and is ok with my atheism. No one has treated me better and been kinder to me than this man. He was the only person who helped me through my cancer nightmare.
He hates living in Nigeria but has to stay there presently to care for a family member.
- Have you sent him money R345?
- Troll-dar reveals that the Islam defender is one person and he’s using all the old tactics that used to work, and sadly still do, on the left – imperialism, evil Zionists, evil conspiracy by Americans. I used to believe it and used to sound just like that person, until I learned about Islam and Muslim ruled countries.
Islamists are brazen enough in the last years to speak their mind freely and finally admit what their violence is all about. There’s not a country in the world that is free of guilt of how it has behaved towards its neighbors and citizens, not one. The difference with Islam is that it is a systematic religion that is rooted in hate, violence and degradation of anyone who is not a compliant Muslim man. The closets ideology to it is Nazism.
Not all Muslims practice that side of their religion, Islamists do. The sad joke is that peaceful Muslims are many times the first victims of the Islamists and they have no one to protect them and speak for them since the left is traditionally siding with their oppressors.
That’s how you get a violent cycle – the left supports the Islamists, the Islamists get to turn more and more dominating and kill off their own opposition, the Western right reacts and get more support. If we on the left don’t get our heads straight towards supporting human rights and not Islamist ideology, we are just as guilty as the right.
- Ummm, r347, you are one paranoid freak.
There are multiple so-called Islam defenders here.
- Only bigots use the word "Islamist"
- Europe is soon going to be very sorry they let immigrants in to do the dirty work.
- Try working your troll-dar, dear R349.
- I'm with r347
- Can any Islam defender please answer the question at R188.
- R353, like many in the US and many in the United Kingdom (including DL's fave, the Daily Mail), and a vociferous number in every country that actually has marriage equality, the majority of Muslims probably oppose same-sex marriage but that doesn't justify the mad, raving hatred on this thread. You never see such foaming-at-the-mouth hatred of Republicans or French anti-SSM protestors. This is bigotry and hatred.
- I'm gay and I think the Daily Mail is tremendous. Although, due it's general lack of proofreading, I am forced to sometimes refer to it as, "DailyFail". Where else would we get our updates on the glamorous life of Joan Collins?
[quote] the majority of Muslims probably oppose same-sex marriage but that doesn't justify the mad, raving hatred on this thread. You never see such foaming-at-the-mouth hatred of Republicans or French anti-SSM protestors.
No, anyone opposing equal marriage is deserving of scorn. This is a gay forum. Yet some gays are defending Muslims...
[quote]This is bigotry and hatred.
No, killing gays is bigotry and hatred.
- So, r355, only if killing is involved can something be called bigotry or hatred. Well, since about 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%, probably even much less, of the world's Muslims have killed gay people, it's hard to claim - by your definition of bigotry and hatred, that Muslims are bigoted and hateful towards gay people.
What a surprise - r355 thinks the Daily Hate Mail is fabulous! It's constant anti-gay drivel, it's opposition to same-sex marriage is perfectly fine! At best, r355 is naive if he thinks that the Daily Hate Mail is just the gossip and glamour web pages that the DM has bee cleverly marketing. Ever read the print edition? Or tried reading the online "news" pages? I'd say someone who says he "loves" something that he also believes is worthy of scorn is a bit of a self-hater. But, hate is r355's forte?
What does "defending Muslims" mean?
As suspected, the foamers-at-the-mouth on this thread are indeed a bunch of right-wing, narrow-minded, hate-filled bigots who have a problem with logic and rational thought and can only see things in a hugely simplistic either/or way. You're either with us or you're against us, right?
- [quote](...) that Muslims are bigoted and hateful towards gay people.
I have to F&F you, R356. This is a gay forum.
- Oh, and the ironic thing about the Muslim-hating on this thread, using Lee Rigby's murder as their justification, is that his murderers were not even raised Muslims, they (at least one of them and it's highly likely of the other one too) were raised as devout Christians, having been born and raised in the UK. They, of their own interests and outlook, were drawn to this sick, extremist, fundamentalist Islamic group, which is absolutely nothing to do with the huge majority of Muslims in Britain.
The mainstream, majority Muslim groups of Britain have wholeheartedly condemned this attack. It has nothing to do with them. And, they are also not coming out with the usual crap of "yeah, this is terrible, but so's what the west is doing in Muslim countries". Just, full, complete, unequivocal condemnation, horror and outrage.
- [quote]the majority of Muslims probably oppose same-sex marriage
Are you gay, R358/R356/R354? If so, why are you defending opponents to equal marriage?
- Why is the webmaster allowing this thread to continue?
When did datalounge become a subsidiary of Pamela Gellars hate empire?
- I'm personally bigotted towards any culture that covers a woman in blankets and treat women as cattle. I could care less if you think I'm a bigot.
- [quote] I could care less if you think I'm a bigot.
I couldn't care less either. Islam is bigotry. I won't support homophobia or misogyny (real misogyny, not that troll) and thus, I won't support Islam.
- Right r361 but there are muslims who don't live like that. It appears from the hateful posts above that you bigots are limping all muslims together.
- R363, can you answer this question for me:
What percentage of Muslims support equal marriage?
- R361, After having lived among muslems and also after having travelling through muslem countries, I have no issue with my "bigotry" and will not feign "political correctness" to appease your own prejudice. I respectfully disagree with you.
- Stop Trying to Split Gays and Muslims!
I have an earnest and sincere question for the LGBT community: Do you support Pamela Geller?
Geller, who is one of the most active proponents of anti-Muslim attitudes in the United States, rose to notoriety as one of the key instigators of the Park51 backlash, misrepresenting a proposed Islamic Community Center (think a YMCA or Jewish Community Center) by calling it the “Ground Zero mosque” and engaging in dishonest rhetoric and blatant fear-mongering. Her organization, Stop the Islamization of America, was identified as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center, a civil rights organization, alongside extremist groups like the Ku Klux Klan and Nazis. And it’s earned that label — Geller and her allies have dedicated countless hours and millions upon millions of dollars to drum up hatred, fear and xenophobia toward Muslims.
Last week I learned that Geller and one of her biggest allies, Robert Spencer, are hosting a fundraiser for their anti-Muslim advertisements on the website Indiegogo. This disturbed me for a number of reasons, but particularly because Indiegogo’s terms explicitly prohibit “anything promoting hate.” (Despite reports from me and many others, Indiegogo has so far declined to remove the fundraiser; if so inclined, you can let them know what you think about that here.)
While I was looking into this, I discovered that Geller recently announced plans to run a series of anti-Muslim advertisements in San Francisco quoting Muslim individuals making anti-LGBT statements. Why? Because members of San Francisco’s LGBT community criticized other anti-Muslim ads she has run there.
I tweeted my appreciation that the LGBT community in San Francisco is standing up against her efforts to drive a wedge between LGBT folks and Muslims. Soon after, Geller retweeted me, claiming that she in fact has “huge support in Gay community.” Immediately, her supporters began to lob insults and even threats at me; Spencer himself suggested that I should be rewarded for supporting Muslims by someone “saw[ing] off [my] head.” (Meanwhile, though Geller, Spencer and their supporters kept tweeting at me that Muslims “hate gays” and want to kill me, many Muslim friends and strangers alike tweeted love and support for LGBT equality at me.)
As things settled down, I realized that Geller had stopped responding to me when I requested more information to back up her assertion that she has “huge support in Gay community,” after the only evidence she provided was a link to a Facebook group with 72 members. I’ve since asked her repeatedly for more information, but have not gotten a response.
I couldn’t think of a single LGBT person in my life that would support her work, but I didn’t want to go off of my own judgment alone. So I started asking around. It wasn’t hard to find prominent members of the LGBT community who do not share Geller’s views.
“The idea that the LGBT community should support Islamophobia is offensive and absurd,” said Joseph Ward III, director of Believe Out Loud, an organization that empowers Christians to work for LGBT equality. “[American Muslims] are our allies as we share a common struggle to overcome stereotypes and misconceptions in America.”
“Trying to drive a wedge between the LGBT community and other communities is old, tired and [it] doesn’t work,” said Ross Murray, director of News and Faith Initiatives for GLAAD. “Pitting two communities [like the Muslim and LGBT communities] against one another is an attempt to keep both oppressed. Wedge strategies are offensive and, in the long run, they do not work. Geller is not an LGBT ally — she’s posing as one because it is convenient to her [anti-Muslim] agenda.”
(continued in next post)
- “As with any attempts at a wedge, these efforts seek to erase the real and powerful reality of LGBT Muslims and seek to create a false dichotomy: All the LGBT people are non-Muslim/Islamophobic and all the Muslims are straight and homophobic,” said Rev. Rebecca Voelkel, program director of the Institute for Welcoming Resources at the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. “Particularly given the oppression, marginalization, hatred and violence visited upon the LGBTQ community, it is critically important that we use our spiritual, communal and political power to speak out against the victimization and vilification of any other community. As a Christian lesbian, I must stand against any attempts to victimize another because of their personhood.”
“There’s no doubt that there’s a great deal of religion-based bigotry against LGBT people, although it’s hardly limited to Islam. The Hebrew Scriptures also prescribe the death penalty for some homosexual conduct, but you don’t typically see people using this to inflame anti-Semitic or anti-Christian sentiment,” said John Corvino, author of “What’s Wrong With Homosexuality?” and coauthor of “Debating Same-Sex Marriage.” “To single out Muslims in this way is both unhelpful and unfair.”
Despite her claim, the work of Geller and her colleagues has plenty of opposition in the LGBT community. Why?
For starters, it’s wrong.
As Junaid Jahangir writes in a recent piece at the Huffington Post, “[Geller’s] selective references provide a misguided view of the current Muslim position on queer rights issues.” He rightly notes that her advertisements lift up the views of a controversial Muslim cleric, but ignore the “over 2,500 Muslim intellectuals from 23 countries [that] not only called for an international treaty to counter such clerics, but also called for a tribunal set by the United Nations Security Council to put them on trial for inciting violence.” In his piece, which is a must-read, Jahangir goes on to quote many influential, pro-equality Muslim leaders. Pointing to the activism they are doing to support LGBT rights, he demonstrates that Geller is unfairly — and dangerously — presenting a skewed picture of Muslim views on LGBT people.
“There’s no question that homophobia is rampant among the world’s 1.5 billion Muslims — but that doesn’t negate the fact that there are huge groups of Muslims who have easily reconciled their faith and sexual orientation, like LGBT people in other faith communities,” said Reza Aslan, author of “No God but God” and “Beyond Fundamentalism,” in a recent phone interview. “For a woman who leads an organization that has been labeled a hate group to try to reach out to a community like the LGBT community, by trying to make a connection based on bigotry, is harmful and ridiculous. Bigotry is not a bridge.”
Of course, members of the LGBT community are right to be concerned about the dangers of religious extremism and totalitarianism — whether it is Christian, Muslim or any other expression. But demonizing another community won’t help reduce the influence of religious fundamentalism.
You can be honest about your disagreements without being hateful. I’m a queer atheist, and I believe that there are ideas and practices promoted by Muslims in the name of Islam that are not only false — they’re extremely harmful. But to rally against Muslims and Islam as if they and it are some monolithic bloc is counterproductive; it creates enemies where we need allies. There are many Muslims who oppose cruelty and violence done in the name of Islam and favor equality for all people, and they are positioned to create change. We should be working with them, not standing against all of Islam. Based on my own experiences, I know that this is a much more constructive approach. In my book “Faitheist,” I tell several stories about Muslim friends who are not only accepting of my sexual orientation, but are also fierce allies for LGBT equality.
(continued in next post)
- That’s the problem with Geller’s advertisements, and with sweeping, generalizing statements about entire groups of people: They don’t account for the diversity of ideas and traditions that exist within any given community. Geller focuses on a ridiculously tiny minority of Muslim extremists in order to paint her picture of Islam, and in doing so she neglects to account for the rich and varied traditions of generosity, selflessness, social progress and forgiveness present within Islam. Not only that, but her efforts alienate key allies — Muslim and non-Muslim alike — who share her concerns about Muslim extremists, but who also recognize that her narrow approach is unfair and dishonest.
Instead of adopting Geller’s approach, LGBT people should focus on building relationships. After all, support for marriage equality more than doubles among people who know a gay person. The Pew Research Center reports that of the 14 percent of Americans who changed their mind and decided to support gay marriage in the last decade, 37 percent (the largest category) cited having “friends/family/acquaintances who are gay/lesbian” as the primary reason. The second largest group in this astounding shift, at 25 percent, said they became more tolerant, learned more and became more aware.
In 2011, I wrote an essay encouraging more cooperation and solidarity between the LGBT community and the Muslim community:
[In 2009], a Gallup poll demonstrated something the LGBTQ community has known for some time: People are significantly more inclined to oppose gay marriage if they do not know anyone who is gay. Similarly, a Time Magazine cover story featured revealing numbers that speak volumes about the correlation between positive relationships and civic support. Per their survey, 46 percent of Americans think Islam is more violent than other faiths and 61 percent oppose Park51, but only 37 percent even know a Muslim American. Another survey, by Pew, reported that 55 percent of Americans know “not very much” or “nothing at all” about Islam. The disconnect is clear: When only 37 percent of Americans know a Muslim American, and 55 percent claim to know very little or nothing about Islam, the negative stereotypes about the Muslim community go unchallenged.
The Muslim and LGBTQ communities face common challenges that stem from the same problem—that diverse communities don’t have robust and durable civic ties. This is why the Muslim and LGBTQ communities ought to be strong allies.
I continue to believe this, and Geller’s work isn’t helping. Geller, Spencer, and their supporters are wrong to try to pit the queer community against Muslims. Their efforts to force a wedge between us and the Muslim community are little more than fear-mongering — a tactic that has long been used to keep the LGBT community marginalized and oppressed.
Faisal Alam, a queer Muslim activist who founded the Al-Fatiha Foundation — an organization dedicated to advancing the cause of LGBT Muslims — recognizes this intersectionality.
“Pamela Geller’s attempts to create divisions between LGBT people and Muslim Americans is a losing tactic,” said Alam in a recent interview. “Muslims who are LGBT stand at the intersections of two marginalized communities. We know firsthand the devastating effects of both homophobia and Islamophobia. And we understand that LGBT and Muslim communities must stand together based on mutual respect and understanding.”
In that respect, Geller, Spencer and those who support them seem to have more in common with anti-LGBT fear-mongers than they do with LGBT people and Muslims who are trying to build respect and understanding. Their worldview is more in line with someone like conservative commentator Frank Turek of American Family Radio, who has said that LGBT people and Muslims “both hate Western civilization, both hate Judeo-Christian natural law values that our Constitution and particularly our Declaration of Independence were founded on.” We should oppose efforts to demonize Muslims as we do those demonizing queer people, as they ultimately share a common root.
- Reza Aslan agrees, and he describes a shift toward greater understanding and cooperation in the Muslim community.
“American Muslims — young American Muslims in particular — are starting to understand that unless they are willing to stand up for all the other oppressed communities in this country, including those discriminated against for their gender or sexuality, then no one will stand up for them,” said Aslan. “So far from there being a bond between Geller and the oppressed LGBT community, the bond [is] between the LGBT community and American Muslims — a community that is facing unprecedented hate and violence in the United States. My hope is that having someone like Pamela Geller trying to create this division will have the opposite effect: That it will bring these two communities, oppressed for different reasons, together to form a bond against all forms of bigotry.”
I share in that hope. So instead of donating to Geller’s wrongheaded campaign on Indiegogo, I encourage LGBT folks to consider making a donation to Muslims for Progressive Values, which is doing radical work to promote LGBT inclusion.
Let's stop allowing the bigots that have infiltrated Datalounge to turn this into some version of EDL. It's ugly and it's going to end up shutting this site down. This used to be a progressive board and bigots were never allowed.
- Trolldar R361/R365.
- Why can't freepers ever spell correctly?
- I live in a big city in the UK, in an area with a large muslim immigrant community. In some streets there has been such a case of "white flight" that white homeowners have been asked to sell their houses to families of people living nearby, without going through estate agents.
Historically the mainly Pakistani families have intergrated but the younger males are rejecting British customs more and more, and the women are encouraged/pressured to veil up and not speak English or speak to strangers. A playground I walk past is segregated - girls in veils play in one corner, little girls in headscarves and boys play in the rest of the park. I've seen old men walking down the street chatting while girls carry heavy shopping bags.
I've not witnessed much homophobia from the Pakistani community (the Somalis are better at that - they throw stones and call you queer but run off when you challenge them) but the genders segregation is more concerning to me.
- Let's see how the bigots respond to the excellent article I posted.
Bigots, begone! You aren't wanted or allowed here.
- Muslims men are forbidden to have any physical contact with women that are not members of their family. This is why Iran's president Ahmadinejad faces the possibility of suffering 75 lashes for daring to hug Hugo Chavez's mother on the Venezuelan president's funeral. Yeah, Muslims are NOT fucked up.
- [quote]I've not witnessed much homophobia from the Pakistani community (the Somalis are better at that - they throw stones and call you queer but run off when you challenge them)
Awful. Britain's collapse is complete.
- Respond to the article, bigot!
- Tough to support a group like Muslims who celebrate American death, ESPECIALLY GAYS. Don't believe me Mary? I'll pay for your trip to the Middle East if you parade around like they do in Castro, and see how long before they cut your head off. They can go fuck themselves.
- Exactly. You hate Republicans because of their opinion on gay marriage, but support Muslims even though they want you dead. Hypocrites.
- [quote]Tough to support a group like Muslims who celebrate American death, ESPECIALLY GAYS. Don't believe me Mary? I'll pay for your trip to the Middle East if you parade around like they do in Castro, and see how long before they cut your head off. They can go fuck themselves.
Hear, hear. Have many of these gay Islam defenders have even been to an Islamic ghetto?
- [quote]Exactly. You hate Republicans because of their opinion on gay marriage, but support Muslims even though they want you dead. Hypocrites.
Again, right! But, these Islam defenders just avoid my questions.
- Respond to the article, hateful bigot!
You're going to die alone and miserable. And thankfully the last of your hateful kind is finally dying out.
- In a progressive society, how do you defend gender segregation and sexual orientation bigotry?
- Join me in F&F-ing all the pro-Muslim posts!
- R381 sounds pretty angry.
- Has anyone taken my advice and Trolldared R361/R365. It looks like someone trying to start a ruckus.
- [quote]Join me in F&F-ing all the pro-Muslim posts!
Already doing it, R383!
[quote]In a progressive society, how do you defend gender segregation and sexual orientation bigotry?
One can't. Prepare for these Islam defenders to avoid your question.
- Respond to the article, hateful bigots!
That's right - you can't - because it exposes the fallacy of your monolithic Muslim boogeyman argument.
And to the webmaster,
If this is honestly the direction you are happy to take DL, you are going to lose an untold number of DL regulars (authenticated and anonymous) in exchange for the bigots and intolerance you see above. Good luck with that. DL never tolerated bigotry before.
- R387, you are contradicting yourself. The article you posted say – “Of course, members of the LGBT community are right to be concerned about the dangers of religious extremism and totalitarianism — whether it is Christian, Muslim or any other expression. But demonizing another community won’t help reduce the influence of religious fundamentalism”
Radical Muslims = Islamists. That’s the group people in this thread have been speaking out against. That’s the politically correct phrase which even the moderate Muslims use to differentiate themselves from the radicals. On the other hand, you said that whoever says “Islamist” is a bigot.
So which one is it? what exactly are you trying to say? That there are no radical Muslims? That Islam does not instruct to take gays to the top of the highest building, push them and then stone them to death, just in case they didn’t die from the fall? That gays are not being tortured and killed in Muslim countries just for being gay?
I’m half Muslim myself, I know the religion and I know the radicals. All your posts are attacks on gays who express their worry about religious extremism which calls for their death. You sound like the biggest bigot here.
- You know that "Muslim defender" is actually anti-Muslim and trying to make others rally against his opposition.
I haven't fully formed an opinion on the matter yet, but it's obvious what they are trying to do.
- I think I'll go make a sandwich.
- I've been here many, many years and have witnessed every catagory of human interest and being you can think of get ripped up and down to shreds. Why should Islam, especially radical Islam, be treated differently here? If reading honest opinions contrary to your own leads you to melt down in a spitting rage, you have a problem.
- WHY THE FUCK do we have to put up with people who reflexively leap to defend islamic fundies? This thread should have had a few condemnations of the disgusting backward trash who murdered the man and the fundie ideas that motivate them. And that should be it. But instead we have about 400 posts because DL seems to think defense of these people is just fine. Why?
If a white man had beheaded a black man in in the US and made statements about "white power," do you think DL would allow people to spew defenses of him (with vicious attacks on other posters) in a 400 post thread? Fuck no.
[quote]Stop Trying to Split Gays and Muslims!
Well, it's hard to respond because I'm still laughing so hard at that!!!! When have "Islam and Gays" been together to begin with?
What a joke.
- [quote]But instead we have about 400 posts because DL seems to think defense of these people is just fine. Why?
No idea, R392.
- Fare much better, 305. Fare much better.
- I'm to the point that I loathe Muslims. Islam obviously isn't a religion of peace, and it's 100% anti-gay.
- [quote]I'm to the point that I loathe Muslims. Islam obviously isn't a religion of peace, and it's 100% anti-gay.
I couldn't agree more.
- R385 theres a guy changing servers and talking to himself. He is about as obvious as a red barn door. Very funny that he thinks he's fooling someone.
- Oops--it's R385 that's doing the talking.
- Nope, the rabid anti-muslim hater here is obviously talking to itself (I say it - because it's not human).
I guess the webmaster has allowed this sort of discourse to prevail.
The article above, though, pretty much outs them as the bigots they are. Pamela Gellar disciples essentially.
- [quote]Oops--it's [R385] that's doing the talking.
Wait, I'm R385, what do mean regarding me, R399?
- There is no defense of that gay-hating religion Islam. None.
- "Moderate Muslim" Is Not an Oxymoron
Islamophobes believe there's something intrinsically incompatible about Muslims and free countries. They're wrong.
Lars Hedegaard is a Danish journalist who has made his name denouncing Islam, which he describes as "a totalitarian system of thought" whose adherents "rape their own children." Last month, someone showed up at his door with a gun and fired a shot that missed him.
It's just what you would expect of those crazy Muslims, isn't it? Except that in the aftermath, Hedegaard found Muslims across Denmark were conspicuously un-crazy. They did not applaud the assailant or excuse his motives. Instead, they condemned the attack and upheld Hedegaard's freedom to preach unhinged bigotry.
One group even rallied in Copenhagen to disavow such violence. A Dane whose family came from Afghanistan told The New York Times, "We don't defend Hedegaard's views but do defend his right to speak."
Oh, but consider what happened last year when a far-right group marched in front of Berlin mosques carrying signs with caricatures of Mohammed, which Muslims consider forbidden. Sure enough, a subsequent bombing was blamed on Muslims -- a bombing in Sudan. In Germany, however, imams asked the faithful to ignore the provocation, and they did.
These episodes raise the possibility that European (and American) Muslims are not as rabid as they are commonly portrayed by their most vehement critics. Remember the uproar in 2006 after a Danish newspaper published cartoons of Mohammed? There were riots by Muslims -- but in the Middle East and Africa, not Europe. When a German paper published the images, local Muslims responded with a shocking display of restraint.
This is the rule, not the exception. Muslim terrorism, which was expected to explode after 9/11, is slightly less common on the continent than kangaroos. In 2010, Europe had 249 documented terrorist attacks or plots, of which only three involved Muslims. In 2011, there were 174 such episodes -- with Muslims accounting for zero.
Same story on this side of the pond. A new report from the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security at Duke University, the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill and RTI International says, "For the second year in a row, there were no fatalities or injuries from Muslim-American terrorism." Since 9/11, it said, such terrorists have killed 33 people in the United States -- a poor showing compared to the 200-plus slain by right-wing extremists.
Of course, a group can be extreme and intolerant without engaging in outright slaughter of those it hates. Daniel Pipes, director of the Middle East Forum, claims, "A vast number of Muslims, those living in Europe and the Americas no less than those elsewhere, harbor an intense hostility to the West."
You can reach that conclusion only if you pay no attention to what ordinary Muslims say. Most bear as much resemblance to Pipes' lurid portrait as they do to Dolly Parton.
Muslim immigrants in France say they have more in common with French people in general than with people of their own religion or national origin. American Muslims are more likely than their neighbors to express contentment with the state of the country and with their own lives. "Muslims appear to be among the least disenchanted and most satisfied people in the West," concludes journalist Doug Saunders in his 2012 book, "The Myth of the Muslim Tide."
"Intense hostility," you would think, would breed support for terrorism. But with intense hostility scarce, so is sympathy for militants. Among Muslims in Germany, only 1 percent say "attacks on civilians are morally justified." Same with those in France.
Some 8 percent of American Muslims approve of such attacks in some cases -- which sounds high until you recall that 24 percent of all Americans say such attacks are "often or sometimes justified."
- If you hear someone in this country preaching violent resistance to the federal government or law enforcement, it's more likely to be a Texas secessionist than a fanatical follower of Islam. Across Western nations, writes Saunders, "support for violence and terrorism among Muslims is no higher than that of the general population, and in some cases it is lower."
The assumption among Islamophobes is that there is something intrinsically alien and incompatible about the presence of Muslims in free countries. In truth, they are not visibly different from other groups that have arrived with the mindset of the past and found themselves transformed into tolerant, loyal and law-abiding souls who value democracy and liberty.
Free societies have a way of doing that.
- Say hello to France. A Muslim in France did a copycat to UK today.
- Deplorable. The Muslim defending troll should be ashamed off himself. I haven't felt this outraged since I saw the "Empty Nests" episode of "The Golden Girls".
- The soldier bears a slight resemblance to the chap who played Ian on 'Shameless'.
- Sure R 57, thanks for reminding us of all the different ethnicities of the wonderful Muslims: Chechnians-Boston, Pakistanis slaughter Christians, Phillipino Catholics are routinely murdered, Somalian Muslim Pirates terrorizing the coast of Africa, Indonesian Hotel bombing, ethnic cleansing of Buddhists in Bangladesh, Coptic Christians slaughtered in Egypt... Religion of peace my ass.
- I don't see any Texas seccesionists lopping off people's heads in the middle of the street.
- Female suicide bomber, the widow of "two Islamic radicals, killed one, injured 18 in Russia, Dagestan region.
- One of the killers was brought up on TERROR charges in KENYA but was sent back to the UK!
- R403 R404
You linked to an article from a libertarian site, and therefore your entire premise is invalid.
Libertarians are sexist homophobic racists...ehhh, I just can't.
You will never "Reason" with the dregs of datalounge, they are too attached to their love for government to ever see the benefits of freedom, non-violence, the free exchange of ideas and the value of self-ownership.
If we quit bombing the shit out of the Muslim world, quit overthrowing their governments, and arming any group that winked at us then maybe they wouldn't hate us so much.
- Do negroes in Britain speak Ebonics, or is that something that just happens in America? Thisis a serious question.
- R408 seriously?
What about the Buddhist in Burma ethnically cleansing the muslim population? Sarajevo, Charles Taylor Liberia muslim massacre in the 90s. Lets not forgot the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse and the countless incidents of American soldiers killing, raping afghan civilians. Terrorism comes in many forms, religions and cultures.
- It's a shame that Bastard in London didn't have his head blown off during the filming of that video. Hope he burns in hell.
- Agree, r402, and I'd add "female-hating, Western-Civilization-hating, art-hating, scientific-knowledge-hating, education-hating, modern-world-hating."
- African-Britons speak the Queen's English, r413. Serious answer.
- [quote]Do negroes in Britain speak Ebonics, or is that something that just happens in America? Thisis a serious question.
Round tones, Ms Lamont.
- EDL accidentally declares war on Narnia.
- Off course it was a Nigerian..
- R420 is a collectively fucked up ignoramus.
- r414 there's pockets here and there. Unfortunately, where there is a large concentration of Muslims, there is extremism and thus terrorist acts on the populace. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims.
- R422, what you're referring to as "pockets" is full-scale warfare or conflict. Most people killed in warfare or conflict or terrorism or violence over the past decade or so have probably been killed by US and allied troops or drones or as a result of turmoil created in the aftermath of US military action, and that tends to be people of Christian origin attacking Muslims. The Chechen wars in the 1990s also saw tens of thousands of Muslim civilians being killed as a result of actions of a primarily Christian military. Then there's also the war in the former Yugoslavia, which was primarily Christians trying to "ethnically cleanse" Muslims. That's not to justify the cold-blooded murder of people on the street by raving lunatics, but if you try and look at the "bigger picture" (not that I believe you ever will) then the picture becomes more complex. Also, there are the Muslims currently being attacked and killed by Buddhist monks and others in Sri Lanka and Burma at present, thrown out of their homes, etc. In parts of Burma the authorities have even imposed a 2-child limit per Muslim family!
What percentage of Muslims would you say are terrorists, then?
In other news, while thousands of screaming pure-blooded Catholic French paraded against marriage equality in France, a film about the love between two young lesbians, directed by a north-African Muslim immigrant to France, won best prize at Cannes.
The last images of Lee Rigby, the murdered soldier, alive, wearing his Help for Heroes sweater, were taken in his favourite doner kebab joint a couple of nights before he was killed.
"Yesterday, one member of staff at the shop was red eyed and still visibly upset after the death of the young soldier two days ago.
"Colleague Ali Ulu, 32, spoke warmly of the late Lee Rigby. He said: 'Lee was in here at least three times a week.
"'He was a really regular customer and he came in at lunchtime two days before he was murdered."
"'He ordered pizza and chips to take away. He would always stop and chat. He would talk about his young son and once showed us his picture. He was a really nice man and we are all still in a state of shock.'"
- So, Ali Ulu, a brit living in the UK, and worried about the war, cannot be openly tried since "it would send the wrong message" and possibly expose assistance from foreign countries???
Here's is my take- bombing via DRONE strikes that kill kid are accidentally "MURDER", but killing "the enemy" is good.
- Why doesn't the US (and UK, BZ, FR...) stop helping these countries.
Why isn't the general populace allowed to see where taxes are gone, who got what, which leader or bankster got the money, etc...?
Why did MI5 (the UK version of CIA/FBI) reach out to Tsarnaev 5 months ago and offer him a lucrative job and then cover it as "routine" after they murder him?
- R422, the largest terrorist organization in the world is the American military.
I agree, but that is like saying Wal Mart is a big company.
Until we remove the power of the Feds to take money from us to give to the big banks that loan (at less than 2%) to big biz...we're fucked.
Big banks, Big corps, Big Rx, BIG military--- they ALL tell Obama (or Bush2.0 or Clinton, et al.) what to do, and he does whatever they want.
[quote]Why doesn't the US (and UK, BZ, FR...) stop helping these countries.
[quote]Why isn't the general populace allowed to see where taxes are gone, who got what, which leader or bankster got the money, etc...?
Our gov takes orders from the big boys, and they will never do ANYTHING that would hurt or embarrass them.
Just like people refuse to believe Obama (and his mom, dad, stepdad, grandmother and grandpa all worked for CIA front companies) is not "The Champion of the People!", some people will refuse to believe that the attacks in the MidEast by our military MIGHT result in blowback.
Until government powers, responsibilities and duties are radically devolved (AKA, ending DC) to the local level, this country will continue to slouch toward a debauched and dangerous Bethlehem...
- Scary but true, R426
- R424, why would Ali Ulu be tried for anything? He works in a kebab shop where he serves many British soldiers at the barracks across the road and is very upset at the murder of Lee Rigby. What "crime" do you believe he has allegedly committed?
- R426 and R428
So, shouldn't the head, and former heads, of such a terrorist organization be subjected to trial for war crimes?
It would make me happy to see Clinton, Bush and Obama do the "perp walk" as they were lead away to life in prison.
- When there are as few Muslims committing atrocities as there are gay men trying to "recruit" new homosexuals, then I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.