Why are gay men so self-centered, selfish and narcissists?
And on their on-line profile they say what a loving person they are.
Yet most times they are self-centered, selfish and narcissists. Who seek out codependent people.
This has nothing to do with them being gay OP, it's all liberals.
OP, it's because a lot of gay men didn't grow up with the opportunity to form happy/healthy relationships. Whether they've had to deal with the rejection of parents and peers, or they've grown accustomed to focusing on their needs (not those of kids)...gay men are used to putting style over substance.
[quote]gay men are used to putting style over substance
with the hope of getting laid.
Sex, sex, sex
R3 is on the money.
The trauma of growing up in the closet has opened gay men up to a greater degree of sociopathy than heterosexuals.
I discovered this twenty-four hours after using Grindr Xtra for the first time.
Gay men are not different than the rest of America. We just don't believe in hiding it. We live with the kind of integrity mainstream America could never muster.
The people you're talking about ARE loving. They simply love themselves rather than you.
Because we can be.
Straight men don't get away with it as easily. But men are men.
r8's answer is a waste of electrons.
[quote]Gay men are not different than the rest of America. We just don't believe in hiding it. We live with the kind of integrity mainstream America could never muster.
I believe this is closest to the truth.
Your post makes no sense OP. You say they seek out "codependents" but of course narcissists don't seek out codependents.
OP you are deepl self loathing. Do yourself a favor and get some therapy.
[quote] You say they seek out "codependents" but of course narcissists don't seek out codependents.
Not according to wiki
OP, you might want to expand your study sample beyond "online profiles."
Well I'm a codependent and they don't seek ME out.
[quote] you might want to expand your study sample beyond "online profiles."
Haven't you ever met someone and then go google their email addy, and their online profile pops up?
3 words....Peter Pan Syndrome
The Peter Pan Syndrome (PPS) describes men, who are childlike in their relationships, their ability to handle responsibilities, and their pursuit of pleasure. “He’s a man because of his age; a child because of his acts.
Victims of PPS appear to be emotionally stunted at an adolescent level. Their impulses take priority over any internalized sense of right and wrong. They cope with their problems by engaging in a great deal of primitive denial, e.g. “If I don’t think about it, the problem will disappear.” This attitude frequently leads to alcohol and drug abuse, since getting high makes their problems disappear, at least as long as they are high. They excel at blaming others for their shortcomings, and are often extremely sensitive to rejection from others. The PPS sufferer desperately needs to belong, as he feels very, very lonely. There seems to be an immense vacuum in his life unless he is around people, preferably the center of attention.
r17, PPS is definitely not limited to gay men. Straight men often get a pass for it because their wives and girlfriends put up with it and coddle them. They also get another pass for it if they have children. Gay men just deal with this my ending relationships and starting new ones, being hoes if you really want to get down to it.
Good lord r17, please stop enabling the academics who churn out reams of postulations on anything and everything...
DataLounge where pop psychologists paint with the widest brush possible since 1995.
I think men with destructive personality disorders (borderline, anti-social and narcissistic) are more attracted to things like Grindr, hook-up sites and circuit parties, because those who suffer from these disorders are always looking for new kicks and sensory stimulation. So if you're looking for guys with more subtance, it's better to look elsewhere.
[quote] So if you're looking for guys with more subtance, it's better to look elsewhere.
Are there any guys with substance?
There was an article in our local Seattle weekly free paper about the problems str8 gals have dealing with local men. My first thought was, "Those are exactly the problems I find among gay guys here!" The feature was SO popular that they had to run a followup to fit in all the ladies' venting. A typical "date" suggestion/offer consists of "I'll be at such and such bar around such and such time, feel free to drop by and say hi. Yours truly, Pete Pan"
I am not self-centered or a narcissists, but I do have cousins who think that I am selfish because I do not care about their children.
I do not like children.
The problem in general is, that people nowadays simply expect too much from other people (attention, love, consideration, etc.)
Until the recent past, most people didn't get married out of love. The whole idea that there is exactly one 'special' person for you in this life, to whom you should give all your time and attention is, unfortunately, a romantic fabrication. All my colleagues at work are straight guys and they all say that as soon as they win the lottery, they'll divorce their wife.
Gay men = narcissists
Doesn't everyone know this?
Another thread started by someone who couldn't get laid and, all of a sudden, gay men are so self-centered, selfish, and narcissists. Try crawling out of your limited world and stop making generalizations based on your limited experience.
[quote]Gay men are not different than the rest of America. We just don't believe in hiding it. We live with the kind of integrity mainstream America could never muster.
What a load of crap. Quit trying to make a virtual out of people who are selfish, shallow, narcissists.
I've noticed some women like that too.
The real answer is where this thread started, growing up in the closet perverts us, stunts our maturity, in essence MAKES us more narcissistic. We have to be to survive. Then, once we find the gay bars and the gay subculture, it is all about superficial looks and all the stuff we need to do to "compete" and to "get laid," which, while fun and feels good, does nothing for our psychological well being or our ability to form adult relationships. Traditionally, gays eat their own. If you buy into the gay culture, you are encouraged to be vapid, self-serving, cruel, shallow and superficial. When I came out in the early 90's, I remember having it shoved in my face that I needed to have the perfect home, perfect job, perfect car, perfect abs, perfect hair, perfect tan. I had to listen to the coolest, newest music and make all the cultural references to things "edgy" and hip. I had to have money. And always be competing with others. Gym bunnies were all around. The men I dated were mostly messed up back then, always looking over their shoulder for the next hottest thing. And their roulette wheel never stopped on me for very long. No one ever nurtured my self esteem. I didn't LIKE most of the gay guys I knew back then and I STILL struggle to find adult, mature and nice gay men today. I hate to say it, but most of the gay men I meet are kind of messed up in some pretty obvious ways. We are damaged goods. NOT VICTIMS, mind you, but damaged from the fucking number society has done on us for decades. I find very few gay men with genuine self esteem.
Gay men are really not taught about self love, maturity, empathy, kindness and how to be in loving relationships, with friends or romantic partners. When thrown together, it is the blind leading the blind.
This is why you must choose your gay friends carefully.
Integrity? Gay men? Hahahahahahahaha.
[quote]it's all liberals.
Yep. I fucking hate libtards!
I don't know, R30... that sounds like most of the straight men I've ever come across as well.
I think it's more a "man" thing than a gay man thing.
[quote]I discovered this twenty-four hours after using Grindr Xtra for the first time.
Why the Xtra? What did Grindr Xtra teach you that regular Grindr didn't?
Clearly,because most of them model themselves after their mothers.
I would say that there is one particular type of gay men who are gay because, simply put, they fell in love with themselves early on in their emotional development. I think this explains why "clone couples" are not a very rare phenomenon.
And before I start getting flamed for saying that, please allow me to stress that I am not saying this is true for [italic]all[/italic] gay men.
R30 you are why I come here.
When you find out, can you fill me in, as well. I'm still trying to figure that one out.
You flyovers are crazy.
That's not really true R30. We are taught all the same things straights are taught. It's just that we are also taught by their hate that these lessons aren't true. It takes a certain amount of advanced philosophy to reconcile No. 2 with No. 1, and only a minority of gays have that.
If r30 is right, then the same must be true for lesbians, and I don't think that is the case.
I think most men value sex over emotional intimacy.
Well, it might have a little something to do with LOVING YOUR OWN SEX!
(Or at least trying to)
What I'm learning now is that the older gay men get the less they believe in love. Once they've been cheated on/treated badly/trashed one too many times, they become more selfish and less willing to take a chance on a relationship. Part of it has to do with the emotional dysfunction of social stigma and the closet, but part of it is just the awful way gay men treat each other. We need to stop with the excuses and act like emotionally mature adults.
R4 nailed it. Most gay men are primarily sex driven but then again so are a lot of hetero men.
Well said R44.
The meanings of these words have been reduced to psycho-babble. 'Codependent', lol. It's much more useful to start here: proximus egomet mihi - I am the closest (person) to myself. Love must originate in self-love or self-acceptance. Love is usually first acquired by proxy; the unconditional acceptance of a powerful and significant person fosters the reflective notion to accept oneself without fear of shame. And in fact, and as such, Love is a decision - cognitive. Unlike fear which therefore isn't an emotion at all. Fear is linked to rejection and non-acceptance by that powerful person who remains out of synch instead fostering self doubt and self-rejection. Self doubt is ego, the craving for reflective reassurance. Which isn't love, just tiresome. One who accepts their true-self without fear is one who has found self-love. Rarely needy or selfish, confident yet not ego-driven (ego 'craves' since craving is the mirror reflection opposite of fear - mirror mirror on the wall). In the Latin 'ego' actually did mean 'true-self', but idiots like Freud and Jung were too full of themselves (narcissistic).
So frankly, given the huge spectrum of acceptance/rejection/judgementalism in that true-self journey for a gay man, you will find both the most and least egotistical - of any men, the most and least able to love with unconditional acceptance - of any men, the most profound and the most shallow - of any men. Depending on the judgemental eye of the beholder - who is usually and rather ingeniously revealing themselves in a mirror ;)
So they can fit in with everybody else.
I disagree R30. Those vapid, shallow gays you describe I also saw, but chalked them up the Yuppy culture at the time and location not just all gay men.
In fact West Hollywood is exactly as you describe. I lived there when I was young. The funny thing is, When I moved just 45 minutes away to another large gay community Long Beach, there was almost non of that. And we are one of the largest gay cities in the nation.
People here in LB are very friendly, community oriented and I would say compassionate. Lots of stable couples, male and female. The only thing people don't like seems to be people from West Hollywood. They bring was most people here call their "attitude" that is not embraced here. They can be spotted a mile away when they walk into a bar. No one cars what car they drive or job they have or designer wallet they whip out. The thing I hear most is "you guys down here are really cool because you friendly, talk to people and not stuck up." Well duh, isn't that how its supposed to be?
Anyways, I digress, my point is, two gay communities with the same demographics of gay men yet totally different socially accepted norms spanning 20 years and still the same. Maybe your experience is colored by where you live or choose to hang out.
If I live in Beverly Hills, you could bet I would think its normal for all men and women to have plastic surgery by the age of 30.
Most people expect you to take their lies at face value, and as you get older, it gets harder to do. It's not that you don't believe they are generally honest, good people, it's that becomes just a power thing: no supporting me in my lie, no affection for you. I caught one friend is a silly fib a couple years ago and although we have had a cherished relationship over 50 years and the lie was a meaningless trifle, she more or less cut me out of her life and snipes at me verbally ever since. I've had other gay "friends" who have cut me out of their lives entirely because I didn't "support them" in some ridiculous minor point of ego even when it was a silly plastic mask with no serious effort on their part to live up to it.
R48 needs to put that into iambic pentameter and sell it as a long lost work of Shakespear.
Won't even need to change the spellinge.
Because we're FUCKING FABULOUS hunty!!!
Most of us grow up being told and then feeling we're not as good as the straight boys. We're skinny or fat, "brainy", interested in feminine things like the arts, throw like a girl and, worst of all, don't want to fuck women.
To compensate, we play to our strengths. We dress well, look well, speak proper English, decorate our houses better, know more about the arts,etc.
These behaviors can be healthy, or they can be destructive IF they are all we are. We can become all "perfect", superficial narcissists.
OR, we can become full human beings with good taste.
As to the relationship and sex issue, many of us missed the "sowing your wild oats" time in High School and even College, because we weren't out yet. We also missed learning how to form healthy relationships for the same reason. Many try out wild sex and/or relationships in our 20's or 30's and therefore seem Peter Pan-ish. As men, straight or Gay, we can separate love from sex.
Whether we should, or not, is a matter of individual choice.
The goal should be get past all of this adolescent and post-adolescent behavior and become who we really are.
We need to learn to stop doing things solely to impress people.
I agree with your post, r55, except that I don't consider the arts to be "feminine".
Because gay is a sexual identity disorder.
I am quite sure R48 had some good points in there somewhere. If only it wasn't so dry and hard to get through.
All R48 needs, Doug R58, is the ability to create paragraphs as he writes. I ain't goin' blind readin' 'at shit, either.
Because their mothers are.
From my experiences, in Portland (OR), the "qualified" identity for gay men tends to be very limiting to "one kind of gay man," and tends to alienate those homosexual men who do not conform to that qualified identity/lifestyle. Nothing makes me happier than meeting people, woman or man / gay or straight, who accept themselves as they are even if it breaks the approved cultural norms and mores. I have witnessed, time and time again, an elitism and discrimination in our gay community against gay men who are not "the norm." In straight culture, I have witnessed similar behavior, but not to the extent that it is found in our communities of gay men. While Portland has a reputation for being culturally diverse and generally "tolerant" of all lifestyles and sexual identity, the hard fact is that we as a city are very specific of what it means to be REALLY gay. Now, when it comes to gay nightlife and bars, in some popular hot spots young gay men (go go's) are paraded in their underwear, serving drinks, whereas this activity in every one of our straight bars is not tolerated and immoral. Additionally, at our popular gay bars, I have walked in on stranger-orgies in the restroom several times and have had a bartender approach me exposing himself to me at my table. These taboos are common, as are pedophilic situations and arrangements in our "gay bars" (which are predominantly exclusive to gay men) in our city. Comparatively, the frequency that these same acts happen in straight bars and nightclubs is next to none. When looking at stastics, at least from my perspective in Portland, alot of behaviors are more common in this "mainstream" of gay men in our city. If we stop hating each other, and accept each other and ourselves for who we are instead of who we're told to be, well then maybe the rest of the communities can see that being a homosexual male is no more "typical" than being a heterosexual male. Lots of people have similar childhood/adolescent backgrounds with societal pressures and parental behaviors, and yet they van have completely different outcomes. One thing I am certain about, is that narcicsm tends to be a popular theme in the arena as discussed above. Overall, I have found that it is expected and encouraged among other traits in the approved "mainstream" gay male persona here in my city to a degree that it is not found, overall, in the "mainstream" straight male persona. In our twenties, we learn that the mainstream serves as a turnstile, and once we a) no longer act the part or b) grow out of the approved age group, we are discarded by those "communities" and move on to a new qualified and again limiting persona. Being gay or straight can be very limiting, depending on the person you are, your priorities, and how you choose to identify and live your life as WHO YOU ARE. Gay men: you do not have to be x,y, or z to be accepted as who you are. Straight men: make more friends with gay men. Everybody, accept yourselves and each other. Otherwise, you will wipe out fast and find yourself looking back at it all...
Because the life stages drummed into straight men - school, job, marriage, children, college fund, retirement, grandchildren - are unavailable to us. As they say, nothing makes one grow up faster than having children.
Lets see how the next generation turns out now that marriage is a serious and more widespread option.
This sounds just like straight men, only they get to hide behind their wives, for a while at least. After a few years they dump the "cow" for a younger model. I'm seeing it now and I don't envy either party. I don't envy those out looking for love either. I don't buy it.
[quote] Why are gay men so self-centered, selfish and narcissists?
Why are DL posters so illiterate?
Sadly, having children does not make you grow up. In most cases, it plunges you back into childhood.
R61 is lying big time. Portland by the way, is the female stripper capital of America.
All you need to know about gay men can be read in this thread. (Yeah,I know...
[quote]Because the life stages drummed into straight men - school, job, marriage, children, college fund, retirement, grandchildren - are unavailable to us. As they say, nothing makes one grow up faster than having children.
Interesting point, but I would say that the complete deal was unavailable. You could still go to school, get a job and retire. And a lot of men did a lot of other things in between too.
But I get "it's not the way I always heard it should be" (thanks, Carly).
Oh, and you may grow up faster by having children but I think it's when your parents die that you really "grow up".
A red flag for me in a profile was a guy who could always wax long and eloquently about his humility and down-to-earthiness. They probably cobbled it all together from other ads.
I disagree R68. I don't think experience of death helps anything in life.
I know more narcissistic straight males than gay males and I only have gay male friends.
[quote] "Why are gay men so self-centered, selfish, and narcissists?"
Why make such a sweeping generalization?
So I'm gay I'm not self-centered, narcissistic, or self fish, although I feel Like the majority are all of those awful things. I to have experienced a lot of bad things with the gays. Went through the family things and what not and I feel like saying just because they went through hard times that no excuse for acting nasty, and betraying yourself as a bad big headed person. Everyone goes through hard times and with those obsticels they are supposed to build you as a good person make one stronger. Because of the gay community I don't like taking my shirt off,im average size and got told that "I was fat,I was fat" many many times. With that being said that's why I have body issuses. And also got the whole I have a pretty face but nothing else:-/ so Ya I can see why everyone thinks that. Finally I feel that they have just grown very man...
I think the bigger question is why are homophobic haters such illiterates?
OP's post should have set off a shitstorm of "Oh, Dear."
I think that is an unfair generalization.
Things like being self-centered or narcissistic are an individual's characteristic, in no way they are related to their homosexuality.
The same way that you will find self-centered homosexual men you will also find them who are heterosexual.
It is very harmful to stigmatise a whole group of people based on a very small sample.
There's a lot of Midge Decter "Boys on the Beach" bullshit in this thread.
What a bunch of hand wringing, navel gazing psychobabble and homophobic, stereotyping quasi-intellectual masturbation.
Some people are assholes: boring, conformist, drink the kool aid assholes.
Do your best to avoid them and you'll be fine.
Oh hi, OP. We were just talking about me.
It really is an eye-opener, how self-loathing so many gay men are. Yes, I know we have homophobe trolls on this board, but OP's post was flamebait and yet a bunch of people who took it seriously who were probably not homophobic trolls.
FACT: there is less narcissism among gay men than among straight men.
When you take any diverse group of people and believe that entire group share the same characteristics. You might be a bigot, Oh wait, you are a bigot.
[quote]OP's post was flamebait
Is 'flamebait' homophobic?
I work with a gay nerd, nice young man who has a dorky haircut, dorky clothes, slender but not into working out. The guy is really smart and conscientious, gets along with everyone and he has a good sense of humor. Sometimes I hear him bitching with an old straight guy about various sports teams and I have to laugh, he's like a typical straight nerd.
Another young gay guy I work with is very fashion and fitness conscious, wildly social and outgoing.
They are both quality young men and if I were their father I would be very proud of them.
It is sad that even gays stigmatise their own kind applying negative qualities as if they knew every gay guy in this world.
It is sad that some people are unable to see that some characteristics are are not collective, not shared by an entire group of people s complex and diverse as any other group of people.
Your sexual orientation won't determine whether you will be a narcissitic or not.
Your life experiences, your own way of thinking, etc can make you become a narcissistic; it has nothing to do with sexual orientation.
Self-loathing gay men project anti-gay propaganda they've heard their while life.
And yet they should be smart enough to know that's what they are doing.
You are just too needy op.
I'm co-dependent and they don't seek me out!
The complaint seems to come from a person who surrounds himself with narcissistic people and not with the average homosexual guy.
Why always blaming homosexuality for everything?