Do you think there is an afterlife? Or is this it when we die?
Do you believe we have another life after we die, or do we go *poof* and we are basically gone when we are gone.
I recall a friend of mine said to me that she believes that after we die, our souls get [italic]recycled[/italic] i.e. we get reincarnated. The flaw with this argument, of course, is that the world population is increasing, there wouldn't be enough recycled souls.
We go back into the atmosphere from whence we came.
[quote]I recall a friend of mine said to me that she believes that after we die, our souls get recycled i.e. we get reincarnated. The flaw with this argument, of course, is that the world population is increasing, there wouldn't be enough recycled souls.
Another flaw is that we don't seem to have any memory of our previous incarnations. An afterlife would not involve being recycled into another life as there wouldn't be an 'after' in afterlife.
Google Ian Anderson and Reincarnation. He has some interesting ideas. He likes to work in places like India where religion doesn't play a big part in people's lives. I read one of his books and found it fascinating.
[quote]Do you believe we have another life after we die, or do we go *poof* and we are basically gone when we are gone.
Death is it. There's no new life waiting on the other side, or any kind of eternal bliss that we get for being penitent.
We're born, we live, we die.
The Voice of the Night
Anderson has owned several salmon farms in the UK. His Strathaird concern, based on his estate on the Isle of Skye was worth £10.7 million in the late 1990s, when parts of it began to be sold off. He currently owns a group of companies, which reported a gross profit of £1.8 million in 2004,[dated info] when the Sunday Herald newspaper reported:
He and his wife Shona, the sole shareholders and directors, shared a £500,000 dividend and emoluments, excluding pension contributions, of £850,954. A modest pre-tax loss of £5,806 was booked for the year but the balance sheet shows shareholders' funds stand at £3.2m. Income included a payment of £209,517 following one of the rock group's regular cheques on its flow of royalties.
When I'm dead, throw me in the trash.
R3, religion plays a big part in people's lives in India, trust me.
[quote]We're born, we live, we die.
Seems so unfair, i want to cry!
Don't know. Maybe there is a non-local consciousness that continues? Maybe not. We don't have the scientific tools to determine either way. It'll be an adventure, that's for sure.
You were perfectly content before you were born, and you will be after you die. What is fearful is how you die - no one wants a death of pain, tragedy, or loneliness.
There is no guarantee, but generosity and kindness in the way you live your life increases the likelihood that you will be comforted by someone who loves you as your body shuts down and you cease to be.
Or you could die in a fiery limo.
Heaven is a Place on Earth
It's so touching to read of people who are dying saying they are being visited of dead relatives. Any hospice nurses on here?
I'm with R9.
Cross over children....all are welcome.
I can't die twice. I died in Altoona.
Don't fear the reaper. Bring your best cowbell.
Not a hospice nurse but I was in hospice with my mom. She kept talking to her sister as if she was in the room. Her sister died in 1997 of liver cancer. My mom was very delirious. I bonded with one of the nurse's who was there at the end and she told me she sees it all the time.
BUT...people may see dead relatives because there is so much talk about how that is what happens....so the dying mind sees what it has been told it will see.
100%...YES! Ask me why I know? Because, I have PROOF!
As with other stresses and traumas, when people's bodies shut down their systems are often flooded with dopamine and other neurochemicals that can encourage such hallucinations. It's the body's way of easing the trauma of dying.
R17 I take your mom was on a morphine drip at the time?
This is it folks.
About two weeks after my dad died I was in a car accident and technically died. The thing I remember when everything went black (all conscious thought I guess)and before being alive again in the hospital was seeing my dad. He was smiling and glad to see me. It was an amazing feeling. He started to talk with me but I have no memory of what he said tho. It was probably like R20 said, a last big dump of chemicals. But it was very cool.
I use to believe the whole heaven or hell thing, now I don't know what I do believe in, but it's not the heaven or hell thing anymore.
Only part of death that worries me is the dying part.
Well, there are atheists who have these deathbed visions, too. And why should the body be "nice" in our final moments? Nature in itself is indifferent.
I believe that there's something humans can't comprehend, but I don't care what it is because we'll never find out. How death figures into that, I obviously don't care because we can't know anything for sure.
This is a true story. If there is no afterlife or anyone or anything on the other side then I don't know how to explain it. Unless it was my subconscious mind picking up on an event in the future. I worked in a health facility as a nurse and formed a bond with one of the porters who worked on my shift. He was an older man who reminded me of my father and I could always count on him for solid advice and support. I have had several precognitive dreams and my intuition is strong. I made my own spirit board and was able to use it using my index finger as a planchette. I was on vacation, a staycation actually, because I had no money, and while I was playing around with the board, a message came through from my own father, who had died several years before. He told me to go to the "grocery store". He told me that something bad had happened to Joseph, and I needed to go to the grocery store right away.. I kind of laughed off the message but realized I was out of groceries so I decided to go to the store as a lark. As soon as I got to the store I ran into a fellow worker who also happened to live in the same neighborhood and she asked me if I had heard anything about Joseph. She told me he had suffered a massive heart attack the night before and was in the hospital. He was alive but in guarded condition. If I hadn't gone to the grocery store I wouldn't have known about my friend until I returned to work in a couple of weeks. Thankfully, he made a full recovery. But I have no doubt that my real father came through that spirit board. He appreciated that Joseph looked after me like his own daughter. If there is no life after death then how did that message come through?
Well, it's a lovely notion, sadly only held by the very guileless and afraid.
r27: I'm neither guileless nor afraid. I'm more of "who knows" than anything else.
No morphine drip. She would get injections of liquid percocet administered by the nurses.
Even prior to hospice, though, she was talking to her sister from the cancer ward of the hospital. She was only on vicodin in the hospital. She would also only speak in Spanish which is her native language and what she preferred not to speak in the US.
The year following her death, I experienced a number of things... many of them were dream-related where I had conversations with my mom about what was going on in my life at the time. On one occasion, I woke up to her voice calling my name. It was so clear.
Later that year, I read a book called Visions from the Afterlife by Lee Lawson which documents after death communications, many of which were similar to what I experienced after my mom died. It's apparently very common.
Well! Aren't you just something else! Imagine, people who've had religious notions of an afterlife shoveled down their throats since childhood actually believing in....an afterlife! Remarkable.
I guess you fit into my observation of "guileless" pal. Oh, and don't tell me "you're not religious, just spiritual". Yawn.
r30: Again, dummy, atheists have similar experiences. I myself never have, nor am I religious. Your religion seems to be the dogma of smug motherfucker who doesn't know anything either.
I liked your story R26, I'm glad you told it
We're already dead. THIS is the afterlife.
"After Life" is just like "Before Birth"... we simply cease to exist.
[quote]I recall a friend of mine said to me that she believes that after we die, our souls get recycled i.e. we get reincarnated. The flaw with this argument, of course, is that the world population is increasing, there wouldn't be enough recycled souls.
To take this further, if no one really "dies" and we all reincarnate after death, then what happens when this planet ceases to exist? In about 5 billion years when the Sun becomes a red giant and will eventually envelope the Earth, where do these souls move on to?
I think those who believe in reincarnation don't understand that nothing in this universe is permanent.
In the dark recesses of my mind, I would love to see the people I've lost once again in the afterlife. I would love to give them a hug and tell them I love them. But that's just not going to happen.
When we die, we just die.
"In the dark recesses of my mind, I would love to see the people I've lost once again in the afterlife. I would love to give them a hug and tell them I love them. But that's just not going to happen."
Who's to know? Maybe!
I can't imagine a bigger nightmare that seeing all your dead family and friends when you die.
So, they're just waiting around to greet you? What then, you have to wait around to greet anyone that dies next?
Why do people think this is a desirable thing?
It's not like people never move on after others die, especially over long periods of time. And seriously, some of my relatives are the LAST people I'd ever want to see again.
In the whole history of the world, no-one has ever proved anything about this death business. It's a very personal area. Personally, I am one of those that thinks "once you're dead, that's all". That's why I try to LIVE as well as I can, (i'm not dollar rich) but I hope I let my friends know that I love them while we live. Like others, I dread the actual dying, but, my lovely, fabulous friends make my life worth the living.
When you look at the universe scientifically, and realize that so many factors aligned almost perfectly to allow for the existence of life. One aspect slightly stronger or weaker, then life cannot evolve. To me, it seems unlikely that a solitary universe would burst into existence so perfectly. Not being religious, I wonder whether this universe is just one in a neverending series of universes - some attuned to human life, some where life is impossible. This time we got lucky.
If universes burst into existence an infinite number of times, then eventually all the elements that create consciousness in this life will exist again in some other shape or form.
Since experience and time do not exist when you're not conscious, I think it's possible that we immediately go from one state of awareness to another.
Of course, this is just my way of living life as an atheist who finds the thought of no longer existing absolutely terrifying.
R34, I'm not saying I believe in an afterlife ( I really don't understand how people on either side make such definitive statements as to whether or not there is an afterlife) but I wish people would stop using that "before birth" argument because it's pretty weak. You don't remember being 5 months old, it doesn't mean that you didn't exist.
R39, everyone says that, and I do NOT understand it.
What on earth is terrifying about the notion of not existing. Are you terrified thinking of the years before you were born?
Seriously, everyone says that, and I cannot fathom what you mean by that, or why you would ever think or say such a thing. I can't imagine anything LESS terrifying.
Now, the transition -- the act of dying -- is scary. I don't like pain. But after death has arrived? What's to be afraid of? It's all over. No worry, no fear, no pain, no concerns, no responsibilities, no nothing. How can anything be less terrifying than nonexistence?
[quote]but I wish people would stop using that "before birth" argument because it's pretty weak
It's not weak at all. You didn't exist before you were born. You won't exist after you die. It's about as simple and obvious as anything can be.
I think that maybe near death experiences can shed some light; either way they make for interesting reading. I am an atheist, not spiritual either. But there is so much we don't know about the universe, about what consciousness really is. I would LOVE to know that I will find the ones I really loved and are dead now again when I die. Do I think it'll happen? I really don't know. We can't really prove "love", does that mean it doesn't exist?
"t's not weak at all. You didn't exist before you were born. You won't exist after you die. It's about as simple and obvious as anything can be."
You have no consciousness when you are asleep- doesn't mean you weren't alive and asleep.
Some physicists seem to think there's more to live and after than we know.
[quote]I think that maybe near death experiences can shed some light
No, they can't.
"near death" and "out of body" experiences can be induced in the lab, on demand. They're simply the brain's confused reaction and misfiring when the brain is being starved of oxygen, and stressed.
While not EVERY SINGLE claim can be explained, most have been. Scientifically.
[quote]You have no consciousness when you are asleep- doesn't mean you weren't alive and asleep.
Um... you dream, right?
And if you bring up anesthesia... well, sure, your brain is out of commission but your body is still alive.
Your argument doesn't even make any sense, actually.
[quote]Some physicists seem to think there's more to live and after than we know.
I'll spare you the obviously necessary "[italic]oh dear[/italic]" ... and just say that no, there really aren't.
R42, if it isn't weak you'd be able to substantiate with credible evidence. I guess you don't quite comprehend the fact that because you think it, it doesn't make it so. Like I said, you don't remember being 5 months old, it doesn't mean that you didn't exist. The argument is weak, period.
r41 what makes death scary for me is leaving those I love behind. I know people say that death is hardest on the living. I disagree. The living will go on. The sun rises and sets and today becomes tomorrow. New people come and go and life resumes.
For the dead and the dying, you'll never experience your loved ones again. It's a deep loneliness that only you feel and a burden only you can carry.
Then again, if you've never known anything but life, the mind just can't fathom or comprehend nonexistence.
[quote]Like I said, you don't remember being 5 months old, it doesn't mean that you didn't exist.
I think you're confused. It's YOUR argument that is weak (to the point of being a complete non-sequitur). If you don't understand why I'm not sure how to explain it to you, other than it's completely irrelevant to the point being made.
It's not a weak argument. You're just stupid, apparently.
[quote]I know people say that death is hardest on the living. I disagree.
It is harder on the living. Obviously. Because the dead person has zero awareness of anything. NOTHING is hard for them. Do you even think before you post? How can you disagree with something so obviously true?
[quote]For the dead..., you'll never experience your loved ones again.
Uh... the dead will never KNOW that or be even remotely aware of that, because they don't exist. There's no 'loneliness' because there is nothing there to "feel" lonely.
Seriously... take two seconds and actually try to reason this out.
[quote]Then again, if you've never known anything but life, the mind just can't fathom or comprehend nonexistence.
Clearly your mind cannot, for some strange reason, but it's not a difficult concept. It's pretty easy in fact.
You naysayers don't know jack and presuming that your pessimistic opinions are the truth is not only arrogant but very stupid.
""near death" and "out of body" experiences can be induced in the lab, on demand. They're simply the brain's confused reaction and misfiring when the brain is being starved of oxygen, and stressed"
Actually, no. There is no scientific explanation for a coherent experience like a near death experience. Fighter pilots deprived of oxygen don't meet deceased loved ones.
r51 don't know why you're being so snarky. Anyone who has ever been deathly ill and thought they were dying would know what I'm talking about. I'm speaking from personal experience.
I assure you it's the loneliness feeling in the world. It's not death that scares you; it's leaving your loved ones behind.
And you just proved that your argument is weak because you can't back it up and had to resort to name-calling. Your argument is weak and completely idiotic. I find it hilarious that someone who thinks that because he can't remember existing before birth means that he didn't exist, is calling me stupid. This is the same person who can't comprehend why I mentioned the whole not remembering being 5 months old doesn't mean that one didn't exist and how it completely invalidates his childish, weak argument, is again calling me stupid.
Thank you for proving me correct. Your argument is weak and you can't substantiate it with credible evidence. It's just your gut feeling, which means nothing to me. Move on. Stop feeling embarrassed over some internet back and forth, so embarrassed that you have to resort to name-calling. It's not my fault that your argument is weak. Try harder.
"You naysayers don't know jack and presuming that your pessimistic opinions are the truth is not only arrogant but very stupid."
I totally agree - because no one really knows.
That last post should have been addressed to R50, the guy who builds his arguments around his gut feeling.
R41, if this is my one shot at life, then once I'm dead of course I won't exist to be pissed off about the fact I'll no longer be alive.
My fear of no longer existing troubles me now. I love being alive. I can't handle the reality that one day it will end. It's not something I think about often, but there are times when I'm lying in bed and the reality that it will all be over one day hits me like a sledgehammer.
I get that people come to terms with the fact that it's how life is, and that dying is the price you pay for existing in the first place. But I don't get how anyone can't be troubled by the idea that one day you will sink into nothingness and it will all be over.
Until my dad was diagnosed with a terminal illness I was pretty much okay with this being my only shot at life. But over the last few years I've found that I can't live my life without some sort of hope that I can continue to experience things. I think religion and spirituality is a load of shit, but I do get drawn to things like quantum physics as a way of finding an out. It's my own form of Pascal's Wager.
You sound greedy, R58.
I take comfort in the idea that I breath dinasour farts so they continue to live on in my body. I also have a piece of every ancestor encoded somewhere in my DNA.
Watching nieces and nephews provides snippets of their grandparents - updated versions with enough diversity for new adventures on the same shit hole known as earth.
I don't even have to cough, burp, or fart to leave a piece of myself on the planet. My skin and hair flake off to be incorporated into the environment. If I read a book, I leave prints and dander between the pages to be exposed to the next reader.
If I type shit on the internet, some asshole ignores time and space in two years and reads it fresh via a google search and a bump of the thread.
I personally believe there is an existence after we die. Many cultures believe this.
While I haven't had any experiences of being visited by someone who's passed, I have heard of a close friend who "saw" a loved one who had died.
Her story went like this: She had had gone to the hospital for pneumonia. After she came out of a coma, she looked to see her deceased husband at the foot of her bed. He had died from cancer some years before. He told her he wasn't going to pick her up just yet; he would "when the kids were grown up".
She related that her husband looked very young and healthy, and was smiling.
It so happened that when her kids were grown, she died suddenly.
I have heard many similar stories of dead loved ones visiting their survivors.
This question is something I ask myself a lot these days. I'm a skeptic's skeptic and would have pretty much dismissed the idea of an afterlife last year. Then I got sick, had emergency surgery and nearly died a few months ago.
I have a degree in psychology. I believed the research that claims that near-death experiences are basically dreams. Then I had my own near-death experience. There were complications to my surgery. They were having trouble waking me up and getting me to breathe on my own.
I remember during this time that an entity spoke to me and told me my time was up. All my dead relatives were there, watching me. I was so sad that I had to leave. I told the entity that I still had things I wanted to do. He told me it was my choice to make but it was ok if I wanted things to end.
There is much more to the story but I don't want to bore anyone with details. Suffice it to say, the experience has me thinking hard about my beliefs.
R11 I'm with you Belinda.
I'm living a worthless, pointless nothing of a life. I hope there's something better when we die and I want to see my mother again.
R61, I would like more of the details of your story.
I think whatever you are, you are essentially a vacuum for subjective phenomena. Think of yourself as a NES and your brain/body/universe you inhabit as a NES cartridge. When you die, the program gets turned off. But, another NES cartridge can be inserted. But what Mario does in the Mushroom Kingdom has nothing to do with what Link does in the kingdom of Hyrule.
Maybe when you die, it's the end of "ego" consciousness, and instead of being a character like Link in The Legend of Zelda, you are a bunch of blocks in Tetris?
Perhaps reality is something that is relative, like space and time? When you die, it's the end of your reality in relation to what others have been sharing with you?
My kid brother had a near-death experience. He had a horrific motorcycle accident and basically died and then came back to life. He was never spiritual or religious and never really cared or talked about life after death. He actually made fun of spiritual, new-age types quite often.
His account was very much like other accounts of near-death experiences. He found himself in a world of darkness. There was nothing else around but he wasn't fearful, he was calm, content. He noticed a light and found himself moving toward it, he was drawn to it. He felt like he was moving through a tunnel. At the end of the tunnel he saw people, people he didn't immediately recognize but they appeared almost elated to see him. He realized that they were our dead relatives but they were in their younger form).
From there he went to a place that was exquisitely beautiful. It was similar to Earth but much more beautiful, the colors were more vibrant. He said that there were colors that didn't exist on Earth or colors that we simply couldn't perceive on Earth. His senses were better and more alive, perceptive than they were on Earth. He also said that the light was actually a being, not just a light. It was a being who could communicate with him. The being was of course, not human, but it fully understood humans and could communicate with them. The most important thing the being wanted him to understand was the importance of love, unconditional love.
He doesn't talk about this experience to anyone outside of our immediate family, except the doctors and nurses who treated him during this period and for a time after it. It has changed him. He just appears more content and loving. He's happier and more kind. He truly believes in an afterlife because of this experience. I find it fascinating to be honest, whether it's real or not. I ask him about it a lot and he never gets tired of talking about it. I think he relives it when it talks about it.
I watch way too my of the Science Channel but according to what I have seen there are several scientific theories of what happens.
One theory is that you live on in other people by the memory imprint you left. Your brain cells change formation every time they record something important. So you could say that a sort of low resolution pixelated copy of you is scattered among people who knew you. So that smile across the room that someone remembers lives in the real world and may be passed on to others. That goes for snarky comments too. You DL bitches.
Another theory has to do with string theory. Basically the stuff inside the atom is seems to pop in and out of existence. Possibly other dimensions. I know this sounds like VoDo but its physicists going there not me.
Anyway that would explain a lot of things like being able to describe a near death experience from outside the room. Things an Adrenalin rush cant explain. We might live in all the dimensions at the same time. Or possibly how people get "premonition."
Even harder to grasp is that we are basically a hologram of our self and the real us is on the event horizon of a black hole. Much like the light from distant stars are actually gone by the time they reach us. But from our perspective they are as real and measurable as if they are still there.
At the actual time of ones dying, the body's amazing capacity to provide a small woman to lift a car off her child, or a meek soul the courage to leap from a burning building, creates through electrical and chemical symbiosis beautiful, exquisitely painless and even pleasurable moments which the living never experience...unless on tons of XTC and heroin.
After it's over and you shut down, that's it Fritz.
I've always believed that there are multiple planes of existence and when we die we go from one to the other one.
As for freaky experiences, my mom worked as a nurse for 30 something years and mentioned a lot of the experiences discussed here. She commented that people spoke to long dead relatives all the time before death.
My sister & aunt both worked in morgues and they will swear up and down they saw spirits all the time.
My sister had an experience where she was alone in one where she literally saw a man walk past a doorway. She went out, no one was there. A woman that had been there longer than her told her it happens all the time and that she would get used to it.
She had a bad run dealing with children's (corpses) after she had a child of her own and ended up quitting.
I think it is too simplistic to assume once you are gone you are gone. Anymore then it is to assume there are pearly gates.
The fact of the matter is, we have not been practicing real science for thousands of years. Barley a couple of hundred. So we really dont know shit about a lot of things.
You cant see the air you breath, dose it mean its not there? We didnt know about germs and bacteria until the late 1800s. You cant see them with the naked eye, so they are not there?
I also think its false to throw up our hand and say some thing we will never know. Come back to this post 1000 years from now and see what we know.
Very interesting theories, R67. My brother described events that took place in the operating room after he died, to us, his nurses and doctors as soon as he could speak. He saw all of this before he went to the dark place. The doctor told my mother ( after she kept asking him about it) that his descriptions were accurate, couldn't be explained, and in his experience, not unusual.
My mother said the doctor was very casual about it. Maybe your theories explain it. I'm not completely sold on an afterlife but I believe my brother so I'm not completely closed to the idea that there may be an afterlife. My brother gives explicit details about his experience, it would be too much to even write here. If I could even remember it all.
If you talk to the very old - people in their 80's and 90's - you find that often they are OK about the idea of dying. My mother explains that when you get to that age you increasingly can't process the changes that are taking place around you, and you find yourself gradually withdrawing from the world into your family and your memories. Of course everyone dreads pain and is sad about the prospect of parting from their loved ones, but the idea that there is an end to life and that it is fast approaching no longer seems the catastrophe that it once did, but something natural.
After she give me that insight, I can start to see the beginnings of that process in myself (I am 50 and she is 83). Many of the things that I would have been exercised about as a young man - musical trends or politics for example - now wash over me. I can take an interest in them, but I can't engage with them in the same way, because they don't seem to be my concern any more; they are for the young to squabble about. It is not an unpleasant sensation.
[quote]The flaw with this argument, of course, is...
It's not an argument. It's a fantasy.
I dont know and I dont care. If I was to find out definitively one way or another, it would not change how I live my life.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
[quote]Fighter pilots deprived of oxygen don't meet deceased loved ones.
They do if they're deprived of oxygen long enough.
R26, why didn't your dead father tell you to go the hospital directly instead of the grocery store?
Interesting posts. My only question about meeting with "young versions" of your loved ones:
What happens when, because of a death, you've had more than one significant loved one. Do all three husbands come to pick you up in their heavenly carriage? Do you go off with all three of tem...and their OTHER loved ones as well?
I know I'm sounding simplistic and everyone has their own finale film playing in their soulk (in other words, someone's ex-wife may have the film playing where he comes to pick HER up and not you), but what happens when YOU have loved multiple people?
I have no idea, r77. Perhaps because any message that comes through a spirit board tends to be brief. Yes or No. Names. Places. Never in full sentences. More like clipped speech. It just kept repeating "go to grocery store" over and over and then "porter". What struck me was the urgency of the message. Strange as it seems it was important for me to go to the store right then and there or I would have missed running into my co-worker. All I know is that it really happened. BTW, using Ouija boards is dangerous. You never know what or who is coming through. I gave up using the homemade board after an unpleasant period where I thought something evil had come through and was hanging around. I did a spiritual cleansing of my living space and that worked but it taught me a lesson about messing with things I don't understand.
Weill r31 be as mean and angry in his "afterlife"?
I think it's wishful thinking. This is probably it. None of us know for sure, so you might as well have fun with your life and try to live it as best you can.
I agree. Live your life now and not in preparation for an afterlife. Live in the present. Although, I do understand how the "Live your life to the fullest" and "Live your best life" jargon is unrealistic and downright insensitive to many people living in very difficult circumstances throughout the world. If this is all there is, it's not like you're going to be sad about it because you won't exist. And if there is an afterlife, it will be a wonderful surprise. I haven't had any personal experiences that would lead me to conclude, definitively, that there is or isn't an afterlife. We live on a spinning rock in a dark space we've decided to call a Universe. Therefore, anything is possible.
Pardon my novel... Dateline or one of those prime time news shows did a program on near death experiences years ago. I remember one of the stories they did about a woman who died on the operating table and whose brain went dead/heart stopped, etc. for a documented period of time.
She described floating out of her body to the top of the room and looking down at her body on the operating table as she watched the drs and nurses working frantically on her. She could 'read' their thoughts as they worked on her as well. And one of the nurses was silently praying something unusual at the time.
The woman then floated higher and higher until she found herself looking down at the roof of the hospital. She noticed a hightop sneaker on the roof for some reason. She floated higher and higher until she went into a calming black tunnel where she said she felt peaceful beyond belief. Like others, she saw a pinpoint of light and connected with it and was greeted by a guide who told her it wasn't her time.
She didn't want to leave but the next thing she knew she was hurtling back into her body. She said it hurt like hell to be back in it and it felt like 'putting on muddy clothes' that you don't want to put on.
A few days after her operation, she shared her experience with the doctor and told him about the nurse praying the unusual prayer and about the hightop sneaker on the roof of the hospital. The nurse confirmed the prayer and said it had been one her grandmother had taught her as a child. Eventually somebody went up to the roof to look for the shoe but they couldn't find anything. The woman was adamant there was a shoe on the hospital roof. To humor her, somebody else went up again to investigate much later and found a hightop sneaker on the outer ledge of the roof. It was located in a strange location that wouldn't be easily seen unless you looked hard for it but would be easily seen from a higher vantage point, ie looking down on the roof.
I realize these are odd elements to her story but I never forgot that story. Does it make me believe that we don't 'die' after our heart and brain stop functioning? Not sure. But I do think there's something beyond this reality.
R55 is seriously stupid. As in, seriously needs to take a class in basic logic. Seriously.
Posts like yours are so empty and pointless, R84. You just call someone stupid without adding anything important to the discussion. If you understood basic logic and thus debate, you'd know that you have to put up or shut up. What I mean is if you feel that R55 is wrong you have to prove it with a detailed explanation or provide some sort of position, calling him/her stupid doesn't suffice and just makes you appear to have a bruised ego.
The fact is logic is not on your side and you've lost the debate.If you truly understood logic you'd know that the position that you've presented is illogical. It's not based on logic at all but rather an unsubstantiated opinion. It's not logical to purport that one didn't exist prior to birth simply because one doesn't remember existing. And R55 shows why that is an illogical position to take, because we don't remember being infants, yet there is no doubt that we did in fact exist.
At least be mature about it and attempt to add something worthy to the discussion. I just find posts like yours so tedious and annoying, just going around yammering about someone being stupid when you haven't proven anything. Put up or shut up.
There's nothing more that can be said. Just read his post. Jesus. He thinks a complete non sequitur "wins" an argument (when he clearly doesn't even understand what he's arguing against). All you can do is shake your head at idiots like that. Because to try and reason with people who clearly have abandoned all reason is a fool's errand.
Seriously? "People can't remember things when they're 5 months old so that proves there's an afterlife"? What?
He's a fucking idiot. If he can't grasp that non-existence before birth and after death are the same thing, and that neither has anything to do with not being able to remember things when you were 5 months old... what else can you do but just laugh and point and call him what he is: A fucking idiot.
There are a few of on DL on the "other side" but we are supposed to keep quiet in these posts. Let's just say, the dead life is quite pleasant but there is no real excitement. That's why some of us come back to DL. There are no time zone or geography here in the dead life and if you have asthma you shouldn't waste time worry about the wisps of clouds and special affects stuff. No more going to the bathroom either. No more eating for that matter. We are allowed to slumber-out, but once the adjustment is made, that is no longer needed. There are no loud noises or bright lights, just awareness of all those around you. We do get some electrical interference from some of the big research facilities on earth, but that too passes. The really fun part is impossible to communicate in language as the experience isn't present on earth so there are no words to describe it. Needless to say, you will enjoy the new experiences as you become more at home without your fatty, skinny, burn up, decayed body.
R86, I read his/her posts just as I've read all of yours ( as well as all of the posts in this thread) and unless there is something wrong with my comprehension, he added the 5 month old bit to disqualify your position of one not existing prior to birth simply because one can't REMEMBER existing. I can't quite understand why you are unable to see that this does in fact disqualify your position.
I didn't see anything in his posts that led me to believe that he purported to believe in an afterlife ( though I'm sure that he/she will clear this up if need be). You are not quite understanding that your position of not existing prior to birth is not a fact but rather your OPINION. He/she simply disqualified your opinion.
The following makes no sense because it is not a FACT. If you believe that it is a fact that you must prove it with evidence. You say that we didn't exist before birth but what evidence do you have to prove this? This is the flaw in your logic. Your evidence is MEMORY ( or lack thereof) as you've presented nothing else as proof of nonexistence prior to birth. Therefore, R55 disqualifies the evidence that you've presented. It's very simple!
"If he can't grasp that non-existence before birth and after death are the same thing."
It's clear to me that you don't quite understand that difference between fact and opinion. Whether nonexistence prior to birth and after death are the same thing is irrelevant to this discussion. You haven't even proven that there is such a nonexistence let alone that they are the same thing ( Remember logic?). It should be very easy for someone who purports to be well-versed in logic to see why your position is illogical. I will no longer argue about this because you are having great difficulty grasping what is being said here in this thread. My intention was to get you to get on with it and make room for more appropriate and worthy posts. You yammering over and over again about someone being stupid is disruptive and tedious.Particularly since based on the evidence in this thread, that description best suits you.
[quote]he added the 5 month old bit to disqualify your position of one not existing prior to birth simply because one can't REMEMBER existing. I can't quite understand why you are unable to see that this does in fact disqualify your position.
Because it doesn't. In any way. I'm sorry, why do you think it does?
You didn't exist before you were born. You won't exist after you die. What is so difficult to grasp about this? When your a few month's old, your brain hasn't developed enough to form a sense of self, a legitimate "consciousness".
If you cannot remember anything, how are you "existing", exactly? If there's no memory, what is the "continuity" of your existence? How does that even work?
[quote]You are not quite understanding that your position of not existing prior to birth is not a fact but rather your OPINION.
That is the most ridiculous thing said in this thread yet (and that's saying something). The fact that I didn't exist before birth is a FACT. Being born created me. To argue otherwise is to engage in a rather pathetic and pointless form of sophistry that is utterly meaningless.
There was no me before me. Fact. Not opinion. To claim it's opinion and not fact is to stretch to the breaking point the definitions of each word, until they are utterly meaningless.
I'm having zero difficulty "grasping" what is being said; I'm having great difficultly "grasping" how anyone can fail so completely to understand basic facts, or to think that other moron is actually saying anything worth listening to.
R89-you are appallingly stupid and I don't understand why anyone would waste multiple paragraphs spanning several posts to tell you this. Your I.Q. is much too low to understand even elementary argumentation such as the fact vs fiction quandary presented in this thread. I thought you'd stop while you were ahead or at least after some of the recent (long-winded only in so much as the words were clearly lost on someone who couldn't understand them) retorts. You should be embarrassed but you'd need an ounce of intelligence to achieve that feat. Good luck to you, though, you're going to need it.
Now, don't be insulted, R89, I don't mean to insult you. I'm just fascinated by your lack of intelligence and the arrogance that exists in its place. That's what makes the exchange I've observed so unbelievable but interesting. I want to see more and I hope I haven't disrupted the proceedings too much. Although, I'm sure that the OP and many others would rather get back to the subject of this thread.
Oh and please stop throwing around non sequitur inappropriately. It makes me weep for you. And while you're busy with that, post links to peer-reviewed scholarly works that declare that non-existence before or after birth is a fact. That should keep you busy for awhile.
I'm pretty much the opposite of appallingly stupid and low IQ, but continue to believe whatever fantasy you wish. I am embarrassed... for you and the idiots who think "I can't remember anything from when I was 5 months old so that somehow disproves the fact that I didn't exist before I was born".
Perhaps the lack of intelligence you're perceiving is your own.
And non-sequitur wasn't used inappropriately, dipshit. It was a completely irrelevant point that had nothing to do with what I was saying that this individual insisted invalidated my "argument" (which was rather, an observation).
Besides, I thought this was a thread about the afterlife (where ridiculously idiotic and ignorant people posited things that can't possibly be real because they're bizarrely afraid of death and non-existence)... not "before-birth". I don't even think most religions posit a "before birth" state outside of reincarnation.
But please, explain to me how "I" can "exist" if there is no continuity of memory what-so-ever. What does that even mean? This'll be a laugh. I don't think you've ever spent two seconds contemplating the nature of self or identity.
Again R91, unfortunately, your incoherent blather continues to prove ( as if it hasn't already been signed, sealed, and delivered) without a shadow of a doubt that you are appallingly stupid, poorly educated, and in possession of an I.Q. so low that it makes it all OK.
I note that you were light on those peer-reviewed studies backing up those "facts" in your previous posts. I also note the expected backtracking ( along with the flailing and grasping at anything and hoping it sticks) that tends to take place when one is asked to cite their make-believe whoops I mean facts. Funny how that happens, isn't it?
I don't have anything against you, R91. You just might be a pretty swell guy. I took issue with your unbelievable arrogance on display in this thread. I just don't think that anyone as unintelligent as you are should belittling anyone else.
Let's give the people back their thread!
I may not see your reply ( and we all know that there will be one since you appear to desperately need the last word) but I wanted to pass this along to you as a parting gift. I think that it could be tremendously helpful to you in the future. My eight year old sister gave it rave reviews.
Critical Thinking Skills: Success in 20 Minutes a Day, 2nd Edition (Skill Builders)
Have you guys seen Lost? I think that explains it pretty well.
I don't understand why people don't believe in reincarnation. There are examples all around us. Especially now, in the Spring. What was, a month ago, dead wood has now sprouted leaves and blossoms so beautiful and vibrant that they please the eye. Things die. And then they bloom again.
Ignore the disdain of those who would put you down because you believe or have the audacity to challenge the veracity of your own personal experiences.
[quote] What was, a month ago, dead wood has now sprouted leaves and blossoms
The wood was never dead in the first place. Analogy Fail.
[quote]The fact that I didn't exist before birth is a FACT.
I have no dog in this hunt but the simple truth is that your statement is false and that what you are stating is an opinion, not a FACT, no matter how much you pretend otherwise and how many capital letters you use.
R96, no, I'm sorry, it's a fact. Please try and find any reference to me, any pictures of me, anything I did, or any other indication that I existed before I was born. You can't. There was no me. That's what BIRTH is, by definition: the creation of me.
On another front: do chimps have an after-life? What about dogs? Cats? Mice? Ducks? Cockroaches? Amoebas? What defines what species has an after-life and what doesn't?
If a baby dies, given a baby has no real sense of self or consciousness while here on earth (since it hasn't had time to develop yet)... do THEY have an after life? What's it like? Nipples and jingling keys in their face?
Come on people, use your freakin' heads.
I think R97 may be learning disabled ( which is nothing to be embarrassed about and doesn't mean that a person is dumb). He doesn't appear to process information in the same way that individuals without learning difficulties do. That's why his arguments seem disconnected and distorted which in turn, makes his reading comprehension appear poor. He may be comprehending fine but can't respond effectively.
He's very literal. Because a photograph of him existing before birth doesn't exist, it means that he didn't exist prior to birth. Because he can't remember existing, it means that he didn't exist prior to birth. And that "evidence" constitutes real and legitimate facts to him. It may also explain his confusion about the differences between a fact and an opinion. He strongly believes that this is a fact; therefore, IT IS a fact. I'd say that he could be on the autism spectrum. Please, please don't be offended R97, I'm just trying to explain possible reasons for your unique perspectives. I could be completely off or it could be something you aren't willing to share here.
Oh and as far as my opinion on an afterlife? Like most have said in this thread so far, I don't know. Life itself is a mystery (yes I started singing it too) so we could be in store for many more.
[quote] his reading comprehension appear poor.
[quote]He's very literal.
Which is it? Poor reading comprehension skills or precise reading comprehension skills?
R100, I did leave room by saying that his reading comprehension may not be poor at all, it may just be that he can't respond effectively to what it is that he reads. However, what I meant by literal, is that his thinking is literal, very black and white.
I don't want to post too much, but I wanted to try my hand in explaining the existing or not existing prior to birth subject. The only reason that we know that we once existed in the form of an infant or toddler is because of photographs, what we've been told by our caregivers, and most importantly because we exist now. We have no personal memories of this prior self. Therefore, the argument is that it is possible that we did exist prior to life on Earth but that we have no memory of our prior selves. I hope that helps.
[quote]However, what I meant by literal, is that his thinking is literal, very black and white.
The idea that something exists or not has very few grey areas. Either it exists or it doesn't.
The car I currently am driving rolled off the assembly line in 2011. Prior to 2011, it did not exist. No grey areas there.