Joan gets a visit from an old friend.
And the partners at SCDP work on a secret campaign.
Plus, the title makes me hope we get to see more about Megan's job on the soap opera.
The master slaver of Astapor is such a fucking hot daddy.
Some pompous, pretentious twit claimed on last week's thread that the theme of this week would be gluttony. Something to do with Donte's something or another.
Oops, wrong thread!
I hate Joan's mother. I wanted to go to Le Cirque.
The actress playing Dawn is pretty and sweet but not a very strong actress. That scene in the diner wasn't so hot.
I want Christina Hendricks to play that character in Paper Moon, Trixie Delight.
Is that Mark Derwin?
Mark Derwin (former daytime soap actor) as Pierre Cosette-yum. Shame about the hairline.
The Joey Heatherton reference ought to take this thread to 500 responses.
I get a feeling Joan is going to quit.
I love Joan on the warpath! And Harry in a lather was good fun too.
Scarlett may have been humiliated but what a great outfit.
The whole Scarlett thing was a lazy plot device to point out that Joan is out of her element in the boardroom. Lazily written ep so far.
Yikes, that's TED MCGINLEY? He looks like shit! What the fuck happened to his front teeth?
And former soap actress Joanna Going plays Arlene.
What is up with the Z-list casting this season?
Kip Pardue? The show-killing James Wolk? And now Ted McGinley?
What the hell??
Joanna Going? I thought she looked familiar. Funny that she played Victoria Winters in the prime time version of Dark Shadows 20 years ago, the same role that Megan presumably auditioned for in the daytime version last season. Yeah, and McGinley looks like shit.
r15, you whine every fucking week about "the show-killing James Wolk" and no one else here gives a shit about him.
Will you give it a fucking rest?
That's sort of brilliant to cast Ted McGinley.
I think this episode is great! Had no idea that was Ted McGinley.
James Wolk simply has no charisma.
Ted McGinley looked almost recognizable.
Mark Derwin would have been a good love interest for Christina Hendricks.
I love it that Joan and her friend woke up in bed still in their clothes and jewelry.
If you ever read the original jump the shark website, you know Ted McGinley is an apt choice for this season.
This is a fantastic episode.
Is James Wolk Bob Benton? He's cute.
I think Peggy's won this round.
Peggy using Don's words! Ha!
Didn't Matt LeBlanc do a Heinz Ketchup commercial where he had it on a hot dog?
I wonder if Harry will flounce to Peggy's team?
James Wolk is Bob Benton. And he's a casting mistake.
I wish we got a good look at the guy who was kissing Joan. Did he bone her?
No Black Haired Betty? Damn.
Looks like we get Betty next week.
I believe DL has its very own James Wolk troll! We should arrange a parley with the Elias Koteas Troll.
Bob Benton is fine; it's Don's new mistress that's a bringdown. I can't wait for Megan to find out and start throwing things.
What a supreme dick Don is.
Was Trudy on? Don't recall seeing her. Alison Brie got a "Guest Starring" credit in the intro.
I'm not a James Wolk troll. I just don't think he brings an iota of charisma on screen. He's not compelling. He's just there. He would have been fine in a soap in the 1960s, ironically.
We're giving tonight's game ball to Dawn. Honorable mention to Bert's socks and that seven-year-old baby. That's all from New York.
I'm not crazy about the psychedelic hippie bullshit, but it's worth it to see Harry Crane's swingin' '68 wardrobe.
And I wish this episode convinced women to ditch those ugly-ass weaves and go back to fabulous Jackie Susann-style falls.
Peggy was such a non-entity for stealing Don's account this episode. They really could have done so much more with that and her betrayal of Stan.
Dawn had the best line: "Church is impossible! You can't stand out in that crowd of harlots!"
Stan is turning into Billy Name of the Warhol factory.
The casting this season is shit. Agree that James Wolk is a charisma void. Don's new mistress is no Midge. And Kip Pardue? Seriously? And Ted McGinley? WTF?
James Wolk is the new Norwegian Catholics.
I used to think that Don's life was better than Roger's, that was a very long time ago.
As for Harry Crane, he was right about Joan but totally screwed up in the way he stormed into the meeting.
One of the worst episodes in several seasons.
A lot of those dummies at TWOP think Peggy and Ted won the Heinz ketchup account. They didn't. J Walter Thompson did.
Don might be a prick but Hamm had his best moment so far this season tonight when Sylvia told Don she was praying for Don to find peace.
[quote]As for Harry Crane, he was right about Joan but totally screwed up in the way he stormed into the meeting.
No, he was completely *wrong* about Joan, which is what made the scene so compelling. Yes, she fucked the Jaguar guy to get a partnership. No, that doesn't mean that she didn't deserve it regardless. As Bert noted when Harry stormed out of his office, "that's the most interesting thing he's done." In other words, Harry doesn't at all stand out, and by no standard whatsoever does he merit a literal place at the table (as in partnership). Joan, OTOH, has always been the backbone that's kept the place afloat.
[quote]One of the worst episodes in several seasons.
I have no idea why you thought it was so odious. I thought it was lovely, particularly Joan's part in it. Much like Don, Joan's pained by the reality that what everybody on the outside thinks is reality is a charade, and hates herself for it. Don's being his usual hypocritical self, chastising Megan's fake love scene even though his business partner Joan *didn't* fake it -- at all -- and then running home to his mistress.
I liked the scenes with Dawn, though I'm not entirely clear why they were necessary. Are the writers planning a real story arc with her?
That Gluttony person can show up now and tell everyone that he told you so.
Well, he did.
Dawn was just a plot device to advance Joan's story. Nothing more. Weak episode.
Joan seemed to realize that she's not been giving herself much respect. I loved how her silly, flouncy "secretary" dress was ripped after her night of debauchery and the next scene showed her prancing into the office in a power suit and handing over her low level tasks to a real secretary.
I think Don blew up on Megan in part because he was already so raw about seeing Peggy in action with her new agency. He really hates that he lost control over that relationship.
What was Peggy going on about with Heinz being "ketchup" and everyone else being "catsup"? Ketchup was never trademarked, was it?
Interesting catch about Joan's wardrobe change R46.
I think Dawn is going to be Joan's Peggy. Someone she can mold into her image.
R47, I don't know if they had "ketchup" trademarked, but Heinz has been making it since slightly after the Civil War, so even if they didn't have a literal trademark on the term, they've always had a de facto one. "Catsup" and "catchup" have been around for centuries, but Heinz was the first to mass-produce and sell it (before then most of it was homemade, and "catchup" was a carry-all word for "red sauce").
One of the worst MM eps. ever.
What the fuck was that last scene about? 'I prayed for you to have peace.' Ugn. Overwritten. Precious.
I loved when Harry said he gets overlooked because his success are during the light of day. Burn on Joan. Face it, if we worked with her we probably would hate her too.
Maybe I should start watching the show. One episode gets so many posts. Even more than a great Game of Thrones episode...
r51, Harry has a long history with Joan. Before he got the TV division, Joan was the person who helped the company land a big account because she suggested building a campaign out of a plot development on a daytime soap. She worked her ass off. But when it came time for Harry to hire an assistant, he overlooked Joan and went with a guy. It was the times. Harry may not think that Joan earned her partnership, but the fact is that she did.
[quote] Before he got the TV division, Joan was the person who helped the company land a big account because she suggested building a campaign out of a plot development on a daytime soap. ¸
He had the TV division (he WAS the TV division) at that point. They didn't land an account, they saved one, and he didn't overlook Joan, Joan never expressed any interest. It was just a temporary additional duty (and it was made clear that her other duties were not to suffer). It was only when they no longer needed her that Joan realized that she enjoyed it.
Joan is essentially an office manager. A damn good one, granted, but office managers don't usually make partner (even though they, like secretaries, are so often the backbone of the company). Partners are people who bring in the money (or who invest their own money). By the standards of 1968, Harry was right to be pissed.
Don is clearly losing his touch, with his wife and with his accounts. Peggy has made it out of the secretarial ghetto far more successfully than Joan and looks the part of the executive. Peggy is tough while Joan is angry and disagreeable. Harry earned a commission selling a special to Dow Chemical but he can't sell a bill of goods to the American public, which even today blanches at the word "Dow." The swingers seem gauche but at heart they're more honest than Don and his little charades. We see Don straddling two eras, taking a hit from a joint and announcing he was against the war and yet intimating his wife was a whore for playing a love scene. I don't know how far Weiner can go with pointing out each week that Sterling Cooper is a bunch of desperately unhappy losers. (Did anyone pick up that Harry's wife probably threw him out?)
I loved Dawn's description of SCDP as this nightmarish place where everyone's secretly crying in private "and that man hanged himself in his office!" That was hilarious (and very accurate).
Joan never would have made partner had she not slept with the Jaguar dealership guy. It just wasn't done back then.
Joan is an excellent office manager, but she is indeed a bully with the women who work under her (she's always been, since the first season), and Harry was right to call her out on it and stand up to her.
Joan and Don are both bullying bosses (and Peggy aspires to be like Joan). Bert Cooper is a far better boss--he almost never bullies his employees or fires them on the spot.
Poor Dawn. I felt sorry for her when she told Joan she thinks everyone at SCDP hates her. They don't, but her friend was right that everyone leans on her because they realize she's so scared all the time.
I vaguely remember a scene in Love Story where Ryan O'Neal and Ali McGraw are in bed and he asks her about the cross she wears? Thought of that (or my faulty memory of it) during the scene with Don and Sylvia at the end.
I liked the touch that Don repeated the gesture of putting his knees up on the bed while kissing Sylvia the way he had seen the actor on the soap do it with Megan. He is such a hypocrite.
I still want Stan in me, quite deeply.
"Joan never would have made partner had she not slept with the Jaguar dealership guy. It just wasn't done back then."
I like Joan a lot. But, everyone in the company must know how she became a partner. Even today, let alone the 1960s, people may do far worse things themselves, but the gossip about Joan will never stop. She did the right thing for her child financially, but at a high price to her reputation.
R50 is right -- it was a dull episode, and Joan's character just gets more and more unpleasant. Tired of those endless pouty faces because no one takes her seriously -- she slept with a used car salesman to get her job, for god's sake. She has no discernable talent for anything other than wearing a bra. She's mean to everyone and she's rather dull. I missed seeing more of the dark-haired Betty, who at least has layers to her character. I'm still addicted to the show but it's getting far enough into the season that the interesting plot lines should have started. They haven't. My fear is that this season is just going to be all about how Don sleeps around.
I pray for you?
I liked the episode quite a bit even if it was more plot than character driven. Not always a bad thing.
I do hate when they fuck up the women's hair. Would it have killed them to have tried just a little bit harder to make Joan's friend look a bit more 1968. She looked more like she was ready for Studio 54 than the Electric Circus.
Linda Cardellini and Jon Hamm have no chemistry. Their relationship is incredibly dull. Her husband must be super-surgeon as he is never home and when he is, he gets called away.
I don't know if they had "ketchup" trademarked, but Heinz has been making it since slightly after the Civil War, so even if they didn't have a literal trademark on the term, they've always had a de facto one. "Catsup" and "catchup" have been around for centuries, but Heinz was the first to mass-produce and sell it (before then most of it was homemade, and "catchup" was a carry-all word for "red sauce").
The important thing.. you don't want your ketchup to be too sour!
It was pretty poorly conveyed that Peggy and Ted didn't get the account either. It wasn't until I saw the looks on Ted's face when Stan flipped Peggy the bird that I got it.
It's getting hard to watch because the men are too relentlessly loathsome people.
Nothing really worked last night for me. Harry's angling for power, Joan and her friend on the town, the agencies competing for the Heinz account, Don's anger at Megan....all of it sort of fell flat. I think the strongest elements of the series are Betty's life changes and anything with Roger, probably because they represent character progression. Looking at the big picture, I think one of the show's biggest problems is that everything seems so fractured.
The men are loathsome. Note how the Heinz exec licked his finger and slid off his wedding ring.
Don's anger at Megan was so hypocritical.
Were love scenes that steamy on soaps in 1968?
The love scene was from the perspective of watching it live versus how the scene plays during the episode.
I didn't get it either r67, that Peggy/Ted didn't win the account.
Can't Joan get her apartment redecorated? It depresses the hell out of me. It's out of fashion for the era now.
I'll be sure and tell Joan, R74.
I thought when Ted and Peggy walked into the bar, first thing out of Ted's mouth was JW Thompson and it being the biggest agency out there. Big account goes to big agency. That's how I knew neither one got the business.
[quote]Can't Joan get her apartment redecorated? It depresses the hell out of me. It's out of fashion for the era now.
Yes, I'm sure Joan has plenty of spare time, between working full-time and raising a baby without a spouse around, to ponder whether her decorating scheme is a couple of years out of date.
[quote]I thought when Ted and Peggy walked into the bar, first thing out of Ted's mouth was JW Thompson and it being the biggest agency out there.
He did, but most viewers probably have no idea who/what JWT is.
Joan looked outdated, her busty figure and beehive hairdo seems out of date by 1968 although I know women still wore them. She's not fashion forward and is every bit as stuck in the times as Don is.
I didn't get the keys to Dawn bit. Was it because Peter mentioned negroes in the workplace at the partners meeting? Giving her the added responsibility as a punishment seems odd, since those keys actually represent a degree of power in the office. Hopefully she isn't being setup by Joan.
Wasnt that love scene in the soap opera a little racy? I didn't they would show such deep kissing on a bed.
I wished they would've used a real soap from the era, even an obscure one. The phony soap gives the whole storyline an air of inauthenticity. I do wonder if the writer husband and his actress wife were patterned after a real-life couple from that era.
[quote]. I didn't get the keys to Dawn bit.
Joan is a bitch because she has call people on stealing supplies and cheating on their timecards. She is passing that responsibility to Dawn.
she has call people on stealing supplies = she has TO call people on stealing supplies
One critic I was reading this morning pointed out that Joan is not only behind her times in terms of fashion but also in terms of management style. Her old autocratic manner of firing secretaries openly and instantaneously just doesn't work anymore at SCDP in 1968. The fact that Harry could (and did) successfully and openly countermand her authority, hugely embarrassing her since she had fired Scarlett so publicly, shows that she's no longer with the times.
She needs a new attitude.
That firing on-the-spot of the secretaries is just plain horrible.
While I understand the climate of the times - how terrible it was for women in the workplace - Joan is just a real nasty piece of work.
Joan's management style... SURPRISE! THERE'S AN AIRPLANE HERE TO SEE YOU!
[quote]While I understand the climate of the times - how terrible it was for women in the workplace - Joan is just a real nasty piece of work.
So far, this season, that seems to apply to all the characters. Hard to root for anyone
as they are all so unlikeable.
I think by the end of this season, SCDP will have some kind of merger with the Ted/Peggy agency. There was foreshadowing to that effect in tonight's episode, and if next season really is the last season then I think they'll want to have Don and Peggy back at the same agency - perhaps with Peggy as head of creative and Don in some type of "emeritus" position that basically leaves her in charge.
[quote]perhaps with Peggy as head of creative and Don in some type of "emeritus" position that basically leaves her in charge.
"emeritus"??? Don is only forty.
Are you by chance 2 Hot 2 B Blieved?
Yes r87 but they have been telegraphing both last season and in the new one that Don's prowess as an ad man is already in decline while Peggy's star is rising fast. Besides, that would be an irresistible arc for the series: Peggy goes from Don's secretary to his boss over the course of a decade. It might not play out totally as I've envisioned it but I bet you it's something to that effect.
R84 -Love that clip from last season. Just put it on my FB page. LOL
[quote]Besides, that would be an irresistible arc for the series: Peggy goes from Don's secretary to his boss over the course of a decade.
Not happening. Sorry. Women didn't start securing executive-level positions on Madison Avenue until well into the '80s. The show only deviates from reality to a certain extent.
Kip Pardue, I want you.
I think the "catsup" was aimed at a particular competitor that was eating into Heinz's market share by underselling? Hunt's?
It should be obvious that Dawn is going to have a story arc this season. It's 1968. Hello?
Joan was right about Harry's secretary. She put in for overtime when she had taken off early. That's pretty low.
Joan promoted Dawn, passing the burden of being the enforcer to her. Being in charge of supplies and time cards means she rules the roost among the secretaries.
[quote]Joan promoted Dawn, passing the burden of being the enforcer to her. Being in charge of supplies and time cards means she rules the roost among the secretaries.
Not quite. Joan -- sick of being treated like a secretary -- pawned off her last remaining secretary-style duty to, yes, a secretary. Executives don't *do* timecards. It had nothing to do with Joan being particularly impressed with Dawn.
I liked that the bosses didn't even bother firing Harry last night: as he demonstrated, there's no way he could possibly make good on his threats. Who would possibly hire him away given what a mediocrity he is? I do kind of hope they fire him eventually because his creepiness stands out even at SCDP.
[quote]Not quite. Joan -- sick of being treated like a secretary -- pawned off her last remaining secretary-style duty to, yes, a secretary. Executives don't *do* timecards. It had nothing to do with Joan being particularly impressed with Dawn.
Can somebody explain what Joan does as an executive?
Joan is still the office manager. But if she doesn't do timecards and manage supplies I have no idea what she does.
Well, in the partners meeting, she asked for information about how to bill for "Project K", so if she's taking care of billing, that's a considerable responsibility. It's still administrative work, but I think Lane was doing it previously, and as a partner, so it doesn't seem too outside the ordinary.
Why was Alison Brie's name in the opening if she wasn't in the episode?
Among other things, office managers maintain HR files, oversee all financial matters (salaries, billing clients, accounts receivable, etc.), manage the company's external relations with landlords/clients/press/etc., and in general make sure the place is running at peak efficiency.
I'm sick of the guys boorish behavior, including the Heinz Ketchup guy. I know they will cover the MLK and RFK assassinations but 1968 was also the year that feminism (or as they called it "women's lib") broke big at the Miss America pageant. There was Friedan and her "work with the system for change" ideas but here was the radical aspect.
What does Bert (who finally has an office again) do? What does Roger do? Don and Pete are the only ones who really seem to bust their hump amongst the partners.
And I think James Wolk, while not charismatic, is adorable.
Joan is also in charge of the enemas.
Joan is in desperate need of a make-over. She needs a breast reduction, new clothes and hair style.
And for someone that is "stunning" and irresistible to men, she sure can't find a decent partner in life. First, married Roger and then Dr. Rapey.
Joan was never married to Roger.
I hate Pete and his balding head. He's so skeevy - offering Don his apartment.
[quote]Joan is in desperate need of a make-over. She needs a breast reduction, new clothes and hair style.
The whole point of Joan is that she is not going to get a makeover. She is just one of those women who is going to be stuck in time.
So is that supposed to be John Heinz - the only child of the Heinz founder -who would marry Theresa, become a Senator and then killed in a horrific helicopter accident in 1991?
Joan is punishing Dawn in a way that Dawn cannot fathom. She is now the office pit bull/gladyskravitz/noseyrosie/lookielou/snitch/officebitch. She is getting all the responsibility and none of the power. Just like Joan when she was the office manager. And she will be hated by the other secretaries and shunned. She will also be on the end of some not so subtle racism by the other secs and how the agency deals with it and the partners personal feelings about racial equality will be at issue. Dawn will probably get involved in the Civil Rights movement in a big way.
Sylvia is, in the words of Heather Havrilesky, who reviewed the show for Salon.com, a "self-righteous troll."
[quote]When anyone tells him he’s handsome or that he could star on TV (as Mel, the soap opera writer does), he acts annoyed. You get the sense that he’d vastly prefer that they tell him he’s a lowdown piece of trash. Just look at how excited he gets when the only character who’s more of a hypocrite than he is, Sylvia (talking down to poor Megan about her plan to get an abortion, and committing adultery with her gold cross around her neck the whole time), tells him that she prays for him.
Was Joan trying to get her friend a job? Is Harry fucking his secretary? Was Joan just teying to exert power to feel respected? I dont get it. Was that Joe Namath thing real? Wasnt it a flop and a joke?
R105, re-read the post. Married was used as a description, no one said Joan married Roger.
I don't understand how anyone could think Joan was out of line for firing the secretary.
When you turn in a time card for time you are not working that is stealing money from your employer and is pretty much grounds for firing everywhere. Same as Lane stealing from the company just on a smaller scale.
Guess some people just can't handle a boss woman nowadays any more than the men back then could.
And as for what Joan brings to the company, she is a lot more than an office manager. She's something like a managing partner and was filling that role even before she was made a partner by doing so much to keep the books for the company.
Is it just me or is Don now a painfully unlikeable character?
He was always a dog, but it seemed as though there was a code - albeit an inconsistent one - that he lived by. It didn't make him likeable per se (it mostly made him a hypocrite) but it did make for surprising moments. These moments usually involved Peggy or Joan where he would champion them or check those who underestimated or insulted them. The Don of this season just seems to be saying "Fuck it." (his suicide themed pitch in a previous episode) or going out of his way to be insufferable (like the scene in Megan's dressing room where he implied that she was a whore which he followed by a visit to Sylvia). Don was never a good guy but this season the character is so nihilistic that he is difficult to watch.
I'll keep watching, of course, but mostly it is for the side characters (Joan, Roger, Peggy, etc.) They are all fucked up in their own ways, but they aren't a black hole like Don.
I don't see Don as much different than he was.
It's just Megan is a much more likable character than Betty so now that he's treating Megan like shit it makes him look worse than when he was treating Betty like shit.
R115 - But I don't like Teefs that much and I did kind of like Betty for being such an unapologetic and entitled ice bitch. To me, Don just seems much more weary, dreary and nasty this season than in previous seasons. Maybe it's the costuming - people are starting to walk around in fabulous, loud-as-fuck clothes. Don is still in grey suits that even his Hawaii tan can't overcome. However, I concede that I might be alone in thinking that the character has gotten tougher/more depressing to watch.
R114, I think you're deluding yourself if you thought Don would *ever* change to fit the current "norms." He doesn't, and that's his whole *point*; he's stuck in a continual rehash of his past mistakes, starting with cheating on his wife yet *again*. The fact that he's a walking anachronism in 1968 has nothing to do, per se, with this state of affairs.
Deluding myself, R117? I don't think I could become invested enough in a television show to get to that point. That's a pretty dramatic phrase. Also, you're adorable in your love of asterisks.
I don't recall saying that I was expecting Don to fit the norms of the show's time period (unless you're referring to my comment about the costuming, but that would be a stretch). Thanks for playing, though.
[quote] Peggy using Don's words! Ha!
I missed that! Could someone be so kind to explain? TIA!
[quote]Don's being his usual hypocritical self, chastising Megan's fake love scene even though his business partner Joan *didn't* fake it -- at all -- and then running home to his mistress.
I think you may be looking at Don through current–day-tinted glasses. Yes, what he does is reproachable…from 1975 on. In 1968, it was a man’s prerogative, as the outside wanderer and breadwinner, to roam around and have affairs. Any woman who publicly did the same thing was automatically branded a slut or a whore. And Don is playing into the last vestiges of that mentality Like Roger and Joan, he and his obsolete frame of mind are being left behind in the midst of all the late 60’s revolutions. He will get his face slapped soon...but don't expect him to adapt.
[quote]If you ever read the original jump the shark website, you know Ted McGinley is an apt choice for this season.
I immediately recognized him and went “uh oh, should we be worried?” Then I realized that this show is meant to last just one more season, so I wouldn’t put it past Central Casting to have inserted him in the penultimate season with a twinkle in the eye. In other words, his reputation as an actor cast during the down-winding seasons will remain, despite the quality of the show in question.
[quote]I liked the touch that Don repeated the gesture of putting his knees up on the bed while kissing Sylvia the way he had seen the actor on the soap do it with Megan.
He also gave her back the penny right before that, a screaming allegory to what he accused his wife of.
I thought the expose on Dawn was wonderful, very reflective of the times and necessary for the character, so we can see where her actions derive from. Can’t wait for her story to get bigger.
Add me to the list of those who thought the bed scene was too risqué. Even if they were shooting only their faces, Megan’s moaning was completely anachronistic. It wouldn’t be until a couple of decades later that you could actually make sex sounds on TV.
Finally, I don’t understand all the hate for this episode. I thought it was great. Maybe it’s me, but I love the episodes that bring it back to the workplace and the title’s theme.
[quote]the Electric Circus
Is that where they went?
Don is a pig for being angry with Megan and then sleeping with the neighbor. Ugh.
[quote]you're adorable in your love of asterisks.
Hopefully you sounded like passive-aggressive socialite Trudy when you played this out in your head, because the copy isn't that clever or original.
Kisses, mwah, mwah
The question I meant to ask (but which got distorted by this site's unwillingness to accept copied and pasted punctuation/symbols in the author cell):
Isn't telling a cab driver "St. Mark's Place between 2nd and 3rd" redundant, unless you're guiding someone who doesn't know where it is located in the first place?
I believe that Joan has taken over Lane's duties as CFO. She is in his office, in case you didn't notice.
I wondered that too, if John Heinz was the man in the office with Peggy and Don. But John Heinz had dark hair, and that guy didn't. I guess company owners don't have to do those petty chores if they don't want to.
And Joe Namath starred in a number of commercials in the early 70's -- I posted one that I remember very clearly. It's Noxema shaving cream -- does that fall under Clearisil's brand? Hmmm...
R102: Roger and Bert don't do much of anything. Bert co-founded the agency and has at least that to his credit; he occasionally shmoozes the remaining old boy clients as well.
Roger is a legacy, owning his place in the workplace and in society solely to the luck of the draw, his birth, and his parents. It's his misfortune to know this and to realize just how useless he is. (At his mother's wake, when he ordered everyone to leave the apartment, they didn't - so he did.)
It is interesting to speculate just what ultimately successful campaign JWT proposed to Heinz Ketchup (we never saw it). In 1968, the agency of record for Heinz was Doyle Dane Bernbach and they were continuing the theme of "Red Magic" established in the '30's.
But... starting in 1968 Heinz started to tout the fact the their ketchup was thicker and slower to pour than others - later put to Carly Simon's "Anticipation" in the '70's.
[quote]James Wolk simply has no charisma.
He's hot, but his look is perfectly transferable to 1968 without a hint of modification.
The times really are a changin'.
Joan is getting a lot more hate around here and now Betty seems to have more fans.
Don has gotten more and more phony. Not only with Megan, but with his work.
"The prestige that comes with ketchup."
[quote]I don't understand how anyone could think Joan was out of line for firing the secretary.
Firing her? no. Firing here publicly in anger? Out of line. It was also standard at the time to let 'the boss' know if his secretary was being fired.
I grow more tired and exhausted by Jon Hamm with each episode and, at this point, could stand to watch the show sans Don or any view of Hamm.
I realize it's always been this way, but the hollow intrigue that seems to build with each episode and then fizzles has worn me down.
And could someone please explain to me the point/purpose behind the preview for each forthcoming week? They show several little snippets of random scenes the average viewer is unable to piece into any semblance of meaning or idea of what the next episode is about.
I know nothing of television production but is there a reason behind this or is it just their failed effort of being 'edgy' and thinking they're somehow sucking people in? I just find it irritating and head scratching.
R124, Joan is NOT in Lane's old office.
She appears to be in the same original office she moved into when they took over the new office space. Notice the door behind her. He office was apparently a former filing or copy room and goes through to the parallel hallways.
Maybe I'm missing something but from the scenes this week of her office, she's still in the same space.
What's up with the TV guys office? It looks so prissy and like a grandma's living room, even for the late 1960s.
Joan is looking a little more voluptuous this season, no?
The James Wolk character is going to do something outrageous.
He is a sleeper...smiling and biding his time until he can make his move.
R130, I've noticed the same, and my guess is that Weiner is contractually obliged to show "coming up" teases, but deliberately makes them a series of non-sequiters to avoid giving away plot details.
Pouring Heinz and three other ketchups on a paper towel and watching the others bleed water while Heinz didn't started in 1968.
I thought that both of the "losing" campaigns shown in this episode would have been fantastic.
I too had a false memory of the Joe Namath on Broadway variety show.
The whole ad agency intrigue component of the show seems to be a total afterthought so far this season. Even Peggy's storyline just seems like filler. That all has a taken a backseat to Don's personal life, which grows less and less interesting with each season.
I think Joan was too quick to fire someone else's secretary.
I love Joan. She's always been one of my favorite characters because she always had this cool nonchalant way about her that always appealed to me. Lord knows she's not perfect. She can be a total bitch to her female co-workers but I'm always rooting for her. Wasn't happy about her prostituting herself last season but for reasons already stated, she does deserve to be at least managing partner.
Don Draper on the other hand is a hypocritical bastard. Whenever the series end, I actually hope he's the one taking the jump out of the office window as represented in the opening credits.
Imagine what would happen if Ron Carlivati was writing the show.
I have no idea what that means, R140.
I would agree if it was someone else's secretary other than Harry Crane's. Joan has certainly picked up the partners' distain for him, despite the money he brings into the company.
Didn't Joan refuse Pryce's office, right after he was found dead in that office. What's not clear is if Joan has taken over Pryce's financial responsibilities...if so, perhaps only a part of what he did.
Right now Don and Joan are a long way from that night they went out for drink, on top of the world. Was that just last season?
Well, R142, Joan has a long history of doing that "firing on the spot" thing - with no counseling, no warning, no nothing. I know this in the 60s - but it's a dick move.
[quote]Hopefully you sounded like passive-aggressive socialite Trudy when you played this out in your head, because the copy isn't that clever or original.
You gave it a lot more thought than I did, toots. Now move along.
[quote] I love Joan. She's always been one of my favorite characters because she always had this cool nonchalant way about her that always appealed to me. Lord knows she's not perfect. She can be a total bitch to her female co-workers but I'm always rooting for her.
[quote]She can be a total bitch to her female co-workers but I'm always rooting for her.
I think a lot of Dataloungers root for her in large part BECAUSE she can be a total bitch to her female co-workers.
Gay men love powerful bitch-divas (especially if they're incredibly sexualized), and Joan fits right into that stereotype.
R133, I think Bob Benson is Don's son. Get it, Don Draper/Bob Benson? I think Bob is the product of whoever took Dick's virginity or its immediate aftermath when he probably went looking for sex wherever it was available, beginning with the brothel he was living in. It adds up-Wolk is 28 and Hamm is 42 and so are, I assume, the characters they're playing. I know, I know, it's very daytime soap opera but perhaps the reveal will play out against a reveal on To Have and To Hold that Megan's character is the long-lost daughter of Arlene (Joanna Going)'s character?
R147 is correct.
While Don initially refuses to accept paternity, he eventually comes around, thanks to a series of valuable lessons and well-placed flashbacks. Just as he's about to fully welcome Bob into his life, that's when Bob goes tumbling down the office stairs! The end!
[quote]Gay men love powerful bitch-divas (especially if they're incredibly sexualized), and Joan fits right into that stereotype.
And who fits into your stereotype of gay men? Jack McFarland?
[quote]You're adorable in your love of asterisks
[quote]Now move along.
You're just a plethora of clever quips and witty comebacks, aren't you? Do you write for Mad Men? If not, you should send them some of these!'
[quote]I think Bob Benson is Don's son.
Is this the new Megan Draper Corporate Spy?
r147 Oh, these ridiculous theories! Suicide off the Draper balcony! Death from falling down the SCDP staircase! Bob is Don's son!
Making Bob the son Dick/Don fathered at age 14 is a bit too soap operaish for Mad Men. Hopefully Matt Weiner won't go there!
Now, if this were Downton Abbey, I'm sure writer/creator Julian Fellows would go there simply because he has allowed that once classy series to get so soapish in the past two seasons. Let's hope Weiner keeps the storytelling above such a melodramatic plot contrivance.
And r147, glad to know you also read critic Alan Sepinwall's reviews. That same Bob-is-Don's-son theory was posted two days ago by someone calling himself NoHoGreg in the comment section of Sepinwall's review of this weeks Mad Men.
R132 - Christina is heavier, so yeah, Joan is more voluptuous.
Loved Peggy besting Don with a classic Don line.
[quote]Loved Peggy besting Don with a classic Don line.
Yet AGAIN, Peggy didn't win the campaign, either.
Again, R122/150/etc., for someone I wasn't even talking to in the first place (or was I - did you delete your cookies, perhaps?), you've given this a lot of thought. Regardless, I'm flattered. Keep stamping those little feet for me.
Is this the last season?
I'm wondering, in the end will Don commit suicide? He seems like a rather sad character, his whole life is a lie.
Actually, connecting Bob to Don in terms of family isn't that far fetched. Don had visions of his brother after he came back from Hawaii, right? And Don's brother was desperate to connect to Don but was rejected. Pretty much what Bob wants as well.
Of course, Don rejects everyone who seeks a deep connection to him and Bob's need to connect seems more motivated by ambition.
Jesus. After Megan the Corporate Spy and Megan Going Off the Balcony, I didn't think you bitches could top yourselves.
Don's secret son?
Didnt most of the real life ad guys like Don wind up fat and happy with a book deal and a professorship at NYU?
r156 Don had visions of his half brother Adam who hung himself after Lane hung himself at the end of last season.
And we don't know what Bob wants yet. All we know is he's smarmy and trying to ingratiate himself to everyone at SCDP.
R153 - Peggy and Ted w0n the campaign. They were celebrating. Don and company were sulking.
[quote]Peggy and Ted w0n the campaign. They were celebrating.
Um, no, they didn't: J. Walter Thompson won. Try reading the THREAD before posting next time, dear. (And pay closer attention to the show.)
Thanks, r159. I re-watched the whole of last season right before this season's premiere so I confused the timing of Don's visions of his brother.
I predict that Don will get Sylvia pregnant. There will be no doubt that it's Don's baby because, as we'll discover, she's not sleeping with her husband (or he's had a vasectomy or something). Because Sylvia's Catholic she won't get an abortion. Both marriages will blow up as a result. Don will will accept paternity and pay child support, he won't want to marry Sylvia.
Megan will go off the deep end, and perhaps end up dying as a suicide or in an accident. She sometimes seems unstable -- bipolar maybe? -- and I don't think she will handle it well when she discovers Don's been screwing around.
At any rate, it looks like some major character will end up dying this season. The show seems to be hinting pretty strongly at something like that. And it looks like it will be someone close to Don.
r160, J. Walter Thompson a large agency won the account.
Peggy's boss said that as he came in the bar. Then followed up with something to the effect of how large agencies get all the good clients foreshadowing a merger with the two smaller firms.
J Walter Thompson, the largest ad agency in the world, won the Heinz ketchup account. Won it in the room.
That was the first thing Ted Chaough said when he and Peggy walked into the bar.
What about Ted and Peggy sitting at the bar sulking makes you think they were celebrating?
OMG r160, to the corner of the class with a dunce cap with you (at least that's how DL will react!)
J. Walter Thompson (the world's largest ad agency back then, now known simply as JWT) got the contract offered to them on the spot.
Peggy and ted came to "join the lonely heart's club"(i.e. commiserate) as they clearly stated.
No they didn't, R160.
The reason Joan fired her on the spot, in public, was because the girl challenged her in public. She also lied and got someone else involved in the cover up. Altogether a bad character.
She forfeited her right to be treated with discretion. Besides it was the 60's. She was "just a secretary." That's how they did it. Executives might have been given more seneitive treatement.
Did Stan show his ample ass?
I think you may be right, R163.
Ok lovers of Dark Shadows, did anyone pick up on the two Victoria Winters in this ep? Joanna Going from the 1991 revival and Marley Shelton from the never aired 2004 pilot? I was half hoping that Megen would comment on Alexandra Moltke leaving the show and Megen auditoning for that part. I did not realize Joanna Going was playing that role, wow.
Also the couple could have possibly been the Shapiros from Dynasty fame? Did they ever do daytime soaps?
ok. I'm going to have to watch that part again
R163: I've been thinking something similar. But I like this one better--another possibility (given the foreshadowing of heart attacks, etc. for a number of seasons) is that Don has a heart attack (a la Nelson Rockefeller) in Sylvia's bed. OK then--logically, Sylvia's husband does heart surgery on him--ironic, but a little too soap operaish for MW I hope. So then both spouses know. Sylvia and the Doc exit stage left probably. Megan of course leaves him but maybe she comes back to take care of him?? He'll probably recover, so then we'll have to wait and see for next season. Major life change for Don--maybe he moves back to Venice, California, former home of the late Anna, and starts to write his book--the life of Dick Whitman, etc. (or starts a little agency in West LA with Jerry della Femina et al. (real agency was there in the 80s). Anybody wanna bet?
They've already had Roger have a heart attack during sex (well, while fooling around), so I doubt they will do the same thing with Don.
Roger was originally supposed to die so those heart attacks of his haven't been mentioned in so long, it's like the Ray/Lucy story from "Dallas." But we won't forget.
Whose Cheerios did James Wolk shit in???
R163 - I could see Sylvia getting pregnant, but I could also see her getting an abortion despite the guilt trip she threw at Megan.
Sylvia is a HUGE hypocrite.
Nevertheless, Sylvia would be consumed with guilt after the fact and expect some show of emotion from Don regarding her decision. He can't give any - no comfort, no sharing in the guilt. Don is just too good at compartmentalizing for that. I don't think there would be a dramatic fallout, however. Sylvia would just be another person who is wrecked by her relationship with Don. She can't tell her husband because what would she do without his financial support? She can't tell Megan and rub her face in it to spite Don because that would also wreck her own marriage.
It would be more inline with MM style for all involved to live quietly with their resentments, suspicions and heartache rather than for there to be a dramatic blowup. This may not be the most satisfying thing for the viewer but it would be par for the course on the show.
James Wolk was scheduled for 3 episodes according to IMBD. This was #3 for him so unless they made a mistake this it.
R173 You are a fan boy! I love Joanna Going glad to see her get some work especially on a show like this one.It would have been cute if they had a vampire in this soap sort of spoofing Dark Shadows.
I don't think that's the way IMDB works, r178. TV series listings are not based on those you are "scheduled" to appear in. Unless a finite project is still in pre or post-production (does not apply to TV series) they list only what's been aired.
Wolk may appear in next week's episode, at which time, it will be added to his list of Mad Men credits. When they become too numerous to count (i.e. you're a regular), then they become numbers. Once the series ends, then they become numbers out of a total of episodes.
Feel free to correct me anyone.
oops meant to say "too numerous to list, then you count and they become numbers..."
You're right, R180. You can never go by imdb in terms of listing of episodes. And Bob Benson wouldn't just disappear, they're obviously leading somewhere with him.
[quote]James Wolk was scheduled for 3 episodes according to IMBD. This was #3 for him so unless they made a mistake this it.
Matt Weiner is a control freak, and doesn't want his actors admitting how many episodes of Mad Men they'll be in on imdb because "it will spoil the surprise."
A few of them (usually people in small roles, or kids) break this rule and tell imdb anyway, but most of the adult actors do not because they don;t want to incur his wrath.
Bob Benson has to be on more than three episodes. They wouldn't let Don's secret son leave so quickly.
[quote]The reason Joan fired her on the spot, in public, was because the girl challenged her in public.
The girl didn't challenge her. The girl simply made gestures behind Joan's back.
R185 - She challenged Joan's authority, much like Jane did in season 2.
Uh, R151, I've never heard of that Hitfix sight or that anyone else came up with the notion that Bob Benson would turn out to be Don's son. Is it only in your world that only one person has an idea for anything? If so, I desperately pity you. Oh, wait. I don't. Never mind.
and in both cases her 'firing' was overturned. Maybe she's doing something wrong? (Like firing other peoples secretaries?)
R188 - with Jane, Jane went behind her back and got Roger involved. With what's her name, Harry had a hissy fit.
How the fuck would Bob Benson know that Don was his father? The man who would be his father is "dead".
Perhaps McGinley and Going were based upon Sam and Grayson Hall?
I'm pretty sure the bar/restaurant where they commiserated was P.J. Clarke's on 55th St and Third Avenue. It was a big press and ad man hangout. It's still around.
[quote]It's still around.
So are its beautiful antique urinals in the tiled bathroom.
Joan is a fat, terribly dressed pig who treats everyone with contempt. She had me cheering for fuddy Harry Crane who stated what all those turds in the boardroom know but don't want to admit: women like her, lacking the aptitude of a say, Peggy, need to sleep with sleazy Jaguar salesmen to get ahead. It is less than legitimately earned.
I feel like the Joan of seasons 1 and 2 would have had more tact in firing someone. Her character has become so much more of a loose cannon than she ever was before.
[quote]I think the strongest elements of the series are Betty's life changes and anything with Roger, probably because they represent character progression.
you. are. nuts. what show have you been watching?
[quote]Is it just me or is Don now a painfully unlikeable character?
The fact is that Don has been mostly unlikable from season one. The fact is that because he is good looking he had the audience's sympathy for a long, long time.
R192 It shoots in LA. So it wasn't the real P.J. Clarke's.
[quote]I think the strongest elements of the series are Betty's life changes and anything with Roger, probably because they represent character progression.
R197, I'm aware of that. However the set, which I sense was on a soundstage and not on a location, is exactly the interior of what P. J. Clark's would have lookec like in 1968. The real P.J. Clark's was used in a smoke-filled scene in the Michael Mann film The Insider.
R196 has it right. Don is a terrible person. As in life, good looks and cleverness can often blind people to true character.
[quote]The fact is that Don has been mostly unlikable from season one.
Perhaps to a present-day audience.
Looking at Don from a 1959-168 vantage point, he's a handsome, intelligent, creative, successful white man who provides for his family and keeps his "dalliances and indiscretions" outside of the family nucleus. He's an ideal man!
[quote] and keeps his "dalliances and indiscretions" outside of the family nucleus. He's an ideal man!
No, not even by 1960 - 1968 standards is he a good husband. You are over estimating how different the times were (like those who insisted Pete would be fired because he danced the Charleston) . Men cheating was a major cause of divorce (though we know that many women simply put up with it...they still do) and since Betty found out he was cheating, he clearly was not keeping his 'dalliances' outside the family nucleus.
Don's become less likeable as time has gone on. I got a sense Don would have cleaned up his act in season 4 after Anna's death, but no.
Don was really trying after he married Megan and was working with her daily.
But he reverted back to the old Don after (1) Megan quit the agency to go back to acting and (2) Megan asked him to use his contacts to make sure her reel got to the Butler shoes (?) people casting a commercial.
As Bert Cooper said, he was on "love leave" during the first year or so of his marriage to Megan.
We don't know yet how Don landed in Sylvia's bed.
He tripped on a throw rug, r205.
The Maid Who's Never There
Just remember, Don is doing exactly what Pete is being kicked out of the house for... fucking a neighbour.
r204, you make it sound like his cheating is Megan's fault.
Don is unlikable yet still more likable than Megan. It's a conundrum.
In other news, here is Pete Campbell as a teenage heartthrob.
I like Megan much more than Don. She's one of the few genuinely kind people on the show.
I liked Megan more a season or two ago.
I love how Megan's mother doesn't indulge her at all.
It looks like teefs has been getting everything she's wanted since she was a girl. Went from secretary to wife/jr. copywriter to living in a gorgeous highrise in Manhattan without any heavy lifting!
At R210's link, why are all the clothes young Pete is wearing adult men's?
Vincent was always geeky looking, I can't imagine some preteen putting his poster up on her wall.
I liked Megan more until this season. Now that she's an actress, they seem to be dumbing her down; she's turning into a simperingly sweet little wifey. Also, I swear she was wearing even bigger teef in her maid's uniform scene in the soap. Am I making that up? Her teeth never bothered me before that. But when she finds out about Don and Sylvia, there's gonna be hell to pay!
She looked so unattractive in the maid's uniform. I think it was deliberate.
Vincent K. was a cute twink in his day. Check out ANOTHER DAY IN PARADISE. There's a cut scene from that where you get to see a bit of his rather shockingly large dick.