Why do opponents of gay marriage always avoid the elephant in the room
which would be that there are millions of divorced people in America who have made a complete mockery of the sacrament of marriage? Even my twice divorced Catholic mother thinks gay marriage is wrong.
Why do conservatives constantly put "traditional marriage" on a pedestal and avoid the ugly and very obvious truth?
Why is this suppressed? Why don't gay marriage advocates go after opponents with statistics of divorce rates? I mean really go on the offense and hold up a mirror to these people.
You are asking for a rational explanation for a an opinion that isn't really rational.
They feel homosexuality is in some way wrong, and they think society allowing gay people to get married is wrong. That is really all it boils down to.
Logical arguments don't work in the face of an emotional response.
They think their 'sin' is lesser - i.e. that you can fuck up marriage 70 times, but if you say sorry then God won't feed you to the cannibal poodles.
I believe the word is hypocrisy.Common among the self righteous.
One of the MSNBC shows last week aired a clip of a Congressman in 1996 admonishing his colleagues who are "thrice married" for supporting DOMA.
Because that elephant is Republican.
The theocratic right is not yet strong enough to legally impose one permanent, lifetime marriage for straights.
Give them time. When they think they're strong enough to impose it, they'll bring it up.
There are cannibal poodles?!? And couldn't one have a gay marriage and then repent it on one's deathbed to avoid the poodles?
I'm with (R5).
It's a bad argument, for one thing.
The issue is equal rights for all citizens.
What stupid people do with those rights isn't the question. If you what people do with their rights becomes a measure of whether they get them or not - then you're on a truly slippery slope.
So the divorce rate is irrelevant to the question.
[quote]When they think they're strong enough to impose it, they'll bring it up.
Why would they? They don't want to be stuck in a fucked up relationship any more than anyone else. Certainly they have no problem with being hypocrites.
I have honestly felt for years that if we're going to prohibit gays from marrying, then the rule should really be one man/one woman/ONE MARRIAGE. Now, that's not to say that there would be no divorce; just, once you're married and blow it, you are done. You can cohabitate if you want, but there should be no legal recognition of anything beyond the first marriage. No special rules for anyone, either: no death clause, no spousal abuse clause, nothing. You get one bite at the apple, and that's it.
Oh, and one caveat I feel needs to be added: once you're married, if you don't have a child within a year, your marriage is annulled and you've exhausted your marriage quota. I mean, after all, isn't one of the main arguments for marriage that it's for procreation? So, no kid(s), no marriage. Sorry if you're sterile, too old, or just want to wait a few years before starting a family. And if you're not married and have a child, no tax deduction. He'll, I'd even do away with the deduction after the first child, anyway... Why is society forced to bear the burden of these huge families?
Funny how the christofascists would howl at this, yet see no discrepancy in their arguments against gay marriage... I mean, after all, everything I mention is in the Bible, no?
Yes, OP. You are the FIRST PERSON in the history of the gay marriage movement to think of this argument! Bravo to you and your keen mind. If you'd been running things from the beginning, gays would have been marching down the aisle in 1971!
They dont care about the "sanctity of marriage". In fact, I would wager they dont even really care about gay marriage. What they do care about is that this battle, which they are losing, is one more indication of how irrelevant and how little clout they have now. Add to that they are being all riled up by people who are paid very well to demonize the gays. Its all about power and money.
When you think about how some of their marriages end. The horrific stories. From white lace and promises, to... cheating, abuse, depression, stalking, financial ruin, custody nightmares. Sometimes murder.
Maybe marriage really isn't "normal"?
[quote]There are millions of divorced people in America who have made a complete mockery of the sacrament of marriage
[quote]a complete mockery of the sacrament of marriage
That's the problem. Marriage should not be a church function. Does baptism and confirmation create any type of legal bond? Do you go to church to have a marriage contract disolved with divorce?
That was NOT called for, r12. The enemy is out there, not in here. I asked a question, got good responses, and then YOU felt the need to add in that typical attitude problem that dishevels it all. Stop it. If you have nothing to add, then go away.
OMG. No one has made this argument before!!!
I'd say R12 was right on the money, OP. Whether Republicans want to acknowledge it or not -- and whether you happened to be paying attention -- activists, progressive politicians and commentators have pointed out for years that straight people and their merry go round approach to marriage have for decades made a mockery of marriage.
Marriage is a stick and a hole.
They obviously fit.
A stick and a stick or a hole and a hole doesn't work on any level.
There's your answer fishbulb.
The real lunatic fringe of the rightwing-fundieworld wants to ban divorce, too.
[quote] a hole and a hole doesn't work on any level.
Clearly you didn't see Requiem for a Dream.
I don't know. They also fail to mention straight couples who are not able to have kids or who decide not to have any kids.
There are a lot of people who think that being gay is a choice, but being morbidly obese is genetic. Haha. Convenient thinking is wonderful.
OP, the "elephant in the room" isn't just straight people who make a mockery of marriage; it's the fact that anti-gay bigots cherry-pick portions of the Bible to rationalize their continued bigotry and ignore the parts about, say, the fact that owning slaves is perfectly okay, and that anyone caught touching a pigskin on the Sabbath should be stoned to death, etc. The reason they're doing it is easy: it's the last major civil-rights issue to be decided. Fifty or sixty years ago these same people would've been up in arms about the Brown v. Board decision desegregating public schools, or LBJ signing the Civil Rights Act. It's no longer legal, let alone culturally acceptable, to discriminate against racial minorities or women, and gays are literally all they have left to (falsely) feel superior to.
No, the "elephant in the room" is we think marriage is stupid for anyone and everyone, but we have to fight for it for the sake of equality.
It's a complicated issue but one thing is for sure, I don't believe any of the hatred stems from homophobia. I don't like that word because it implies that those who are bigoted against us are afraid of us when that's not the case. It isn't that they fear us, it's that they loathe us.
They don't think of homosexuality as a legitimate concept. They are still of the old belief that we are mentally sick and just need to be corrected through psychotherapy and determination.
Those who don't fall into this above category are simply disgusted by us because we are different than they are. In their warped minds our very existence is a mockery of their normality. We threaten their understanding of what is right and wrong.
All in all, some people will never be convinced that we are people deserving of equal, or even basic human rights. We just have to wait for these people to die off. It's a waiting game and time is on our side.
Marriage is a religious rite (ritual). In the US we have what is known as the first amendment to the constitution that along with free speech protects religion from governmental tyranny.
Petitioning our government to force religious institutions to perform the rites that go against the tenants of the religions faith is therefore unconstitutional.
However, we do allow for civil unions in this country that are performed by governmental officials.
If the fight is TRULY about equality in marriage for gays then this should be our argument.
But this fight isn't about US. It is about the politicians grand standing for themselves.
Why did it take Hillary so long to say anything or Obama for that matter?
We're only fooling ourselves if we think this fight is really about civil rights.
[quote]Marriage is a religious rite (ritual).
No. Marriage is a contract. It can be expressed in a religious ceremony, but bottom line is its a contract. That's why you need the courts to dissolve one.
[quote]Petitioning our government to force religious institutions to perform the rites that go against the tenants of the religions faith is therefore unconstitutional.
No one is doing that. Why waist all that time and bandwidth on something that is not even true?
Why waist all that time....
R30, what about the tenants of the religions faith?
Marriage has always been a way for men to protect their property. They married virgins to guarantee any resultant children were theirs and would qualify to inherit. It has never been about love or religion.
R32 is 100% correct.
So now we need to be seen as property? The whole point of this "civil rights" issue is to be treated like chattel?
R32. You are an idiot.
In what way would it benefit opponents of gay marriage to talk about straight divorce?
R20 clearly has never had sex in anything but the missionary position.
[quote] It isn't that they fear us, it's that they loathe us.
R27, it's both. I live in the middle of the country and they're hearing anti-gay propaganda from the fundie pulpit. To wit, all gay men have/are dying of AIDS, all lesbians are predatory, and gays of both sexes recruit to sustain their numbers.
There is definitely a part of this country that's still stuck in the 1950s.
It's that they believe what it says in the Bible. Some people try to twist the shit out it but it's clear gayness is a no-no. It's a fairy tale. Why some gay people follow and obsess about something that hates you I'll never know.
Southern Baptists refused to apologize for the effect their faith played in slavery until relatively late in the last century. There are still loads of white evangelicals with Antediluvian views on race and miscegenation. Gay marriage is just the latest "bugaboo" to fire them up.