First, it must be said, as always, that this is not an issue about Judaism. Those of us who feel that America should sever ties with Israel are not coming from a place of antisemitism. It is not Jewish people who are the problem. Many Jewish people are against what Israel is doing but you will never see this in the mainstream news because that does not fit the discourse that they have pushed.
What this is about is anti-Zionism. Some of the most ardent Zionists aren't even Jewish themselves like George W. Bush. He is a born again Christian who believes that the final war on Earth will spark in Jerusalem and his policy as President was whole-heartedly devoted to speeding up that "prophecy".
But why the Israeli/Palestinian conflict must resonate with the gay community is because of Israel's policy of "pinkwashing". Israel pushes the idea that because they are more liberal towards gays than the rest of the Arab world, that somehow gives them carte blanche to do what they want to the Palestinians. Well that is just absolute bullshit to me and I don't like being used in that way.
The Israeli government is promoting Tel Aviv as some sort of gay mecca. I don't care if it is or isn't when I know that Palestinians, who have lived in that land for 2000 years before the British Empire created Israel, are not allowed on certain areas of the beach in that city. Beaches that was once theirs are no longer permitted to them.
They are constantly made to feel less than. They are reminded of this everyday when they go shopping for the day and see that there are stores for Palestinians and stores for Israelis. Apartheid is alive and well and it's in Israel.
I do not feel comfortable with my taxpayer dollars being spent to support a country that exists as a brutal Apartheid state. South Africa fell under the weight of its own hatred and a strong disinvestment and sanctions from the international community. Europe is slowly awakening to the fact that something is terribly wrong with the Israeli government and it is becoming apparent that America will stand alone as Israel's only "friend".
Check out Sarah Schulman's book on this subject called "Israel/Palestine and the International Queer". She is a Jewish woman against Zionism and a noted scholar on queer theory.
She tried to have a reading of the book at the Gay and Lesbian Center in the West Village but that freak Michael Lucas tried to stop it, threatening to take his (boyfriend's) money out of the Center.
After a huge backlash from many in the gay community the reading finally happened last Tuesday. Anything that pisses La Lucas off is a good thing in my book.
You know the Muslims are the first in line who want to kill you don't you?
American jews support Israel. American jews are big political contributers.Politicians live and die by financial backers. Ergo the American political establishment backs Israel.Palestine has no such deep pocket lobby. Therefore they can rot.
r2 that reactionary, reflexive line is often touted but without much forethought or consideration at the complexity of the situation.
It is also uttered by people who I will bet my bottom dollar do not actually KNOW any Palestinians. The Israeli government has done a great job of demonizing all Arab people in the media that most American citizens just view them as this homogeneous group when the world just doesn't work like that.
It also doesn't excuse what Israel is doing to them. The land is theirs. They shouldn't be segregated on their own land. There is no getting around that. The Israelis can go through as many mental gymnastics as they want to justify their policies as they want but they cannot deny that they stole the land from an indigenous people who have lived there for thousands of years.
[quote]First, it must be said, as always, that this is not an issue about Judaism.
Of course, OP. This is only about the only Jewish country on earth (out of 196 in total), and the home of just a measly 40% of the world's Jews - it has nothing at all do to with Judaism.
[quote]Many Jewish people are against what Israel is doing
And many gay people are in GOProud.
[quote]But why the Israeli/Palestinian conflict must resonate with the gay community is because of Israel's policy of "pinkwashing".
Yes, how perfidious of Israel to give gay people equal rights just to make Muslims look bad. The Palestinians would never lower themselves to that level, thank God.
[quote]Apartheid is alive and well and it's in Israel.
Arabs have full civil rights in Israel. An Israeli president was sent to jail by an Arab judge. I don't think that kind of thing happenend in apartheid-era South Africa, did it? This situation also sharply contrasts with the way Palestinians are treated in most Arab countries, where they've been kept in refugee camps for decades and can't acquire citizenship. Since you care so much about Palestinians, maybe you should look into that.
While more than a million Arabs live in Israel with full civil rights, the prospective Palestinian state you cannot wait to see established would not allow a single Jew to live within its borders. (That's not according to Hamas, but according to the "moderate" Abbas.)
Actually, Israel is pretty much the only country in the Middle East where there's no apartheid, neither by religion, ethnicity, gender nor sexual orientation (yeah, I know you don't give a fuck about the last one, but I thought I'd mention it anyway).
Sorry R4/OP you're not the only one who can understand the complexity of the situation. I bet you hate the Republicans here because they don't allow gay marriage yet you would like the Palestinian shitter to align yourself with some hip Ivy League sentiment.
Show me one Arab country you could be out and proud in without the risk of getting slaughtered and I will take back my post. I'm not asking for two, or three, or even four. Just one. You can't do it.
Go warm you oven up somewhere else.
I have a feeling OP started the white people/mixed ethnicities thread. There's an $18 troll amongst us.
[quote]Go warm you oven up somewhere else.
Oh, dear. Sounds dirty.
Islam is a vile religion that wants nothing more than the annihilation of any and all people who don't subscribe to its strictures.
Israel is a free democracy with a lot of problems, but it's a far better society than any of the murderous Islamic ones.
Why not break relations with China? After all, they've occupied Tibet for decades and have tried to ethnically cleanse Tibetans from their land, forcibly imposed settlements of Han Chinese into Tibet, etc.
Of course, most people like OP don't care about any of that because it's not Jews doing it, so it doesn't get them any traction at the vegan lesbian potlucks on Thursday evenings.
All I see are a lot of excuses but it all boils down to the fact that Israel was carved out of an already existing nation. Palestinians have "full civil rights" about as much as African Americans had them under Jim Crow.
They don't even respect the measily slips of land that are designated to them. The Israeli settler camps are atrocious. They bulldoze Palestinians homes and them give the land to these settlers.
Go to Tel Aviv. You will see many splendid, cosmopolitan sights...restaurants, bars, beaches and hotels. But they will all be attended by well to do Israelis and foreigners on holiday. I think it is pretty shameful that the Palestinians have been alienated and marginalized in their own land.
The anti-Zionist movement isn't even negating Israel's right to exist. Sure, have your nation-state. But at least recognize Palestine and it's people, stop the settlement camps and stop treating people as second class citizens.
Sorry R5 but it's just not true that Palestinians and Arabs have full civil rights in Israel.
Arab and Palestinian immigration is forbidden, even through marriage to an Israeli.
Arab right to land ownership in Israel was not established until 2000. Even after that time Israel had contracted with the Jewish National Fund to lease most land, and JNF, a private group, confined the leases to Jews until a court case in 2007 ruled they couldn't.
The Population Registration Act of 1965 defines everybody by race and religion and therefore is an an unexcelled document for discrimination.
Israel annexed land without compensation under military rule including in the West Bank and Gaza. Water rights were also given. Today 450,000 Israeli settlers use more water than 2.3 million Palestinians. Whenever this is questioned they say they built the Palestinian water infrastructure out of their nobility, not mentioning that Palestinians could not have built it if they wanted to since Israel, while pretending to give the occupied territories political rights, in practice maintains a military occupation both of the West Bank and Gaza and prevents freedom of movement.
A pass law system was set up governing the movement of Palestinians not just to and from Israel but within their territories which are supposedly under their government. Palestinians are restricted or banned from using 450 miles of roads in the West Bank.
Israel built a huge wall to confine Palestinians on the West Bank.
Israel allows Arabs and Palestinians to learn in Arabic...until university level, which is only conducted in Hebrew.
"But at least recognize Palestine and it's people, stop the settlement camps and stop treating people as second class citizens."
And I'm sure you're calling on the Palestinian Authority to do the same for Israel? That must be the tiny print in your post I couldn't read. Who are you kidding with the "anti-Zionist movement"? We all know what it's code for.
I've never heard the argument that America should support Israel because it is pro-gay. The main argument is that Jews are persecuted everywhere, they are entitled to a homeland, and to be free of rocket fire from Palestinians. In other words, they have the right to defend themselves.
OP your wrong! The Jews were forced out of their land in A.D 70. However, there were thousands of Jews who returned to the land of Israel,and who lived in Israel way before Israel became a nation again in 1948.
The Palestinians where originally from the island of Crete and they were not originally in the land of Israel but only Jews were.
Also, the Middle East can't stand the Palestinians because they are considered trouble makers,but many nations in the Middle East side with them because they have one common enemy who they tremendously hate which is Israel. Also, the Arabs hate the Jews because it stems from thousands of years of the resentment stemming to the very beginning of the friction between half brothers, Isaac and Ishmael.
BTW OP, you are Anti-Semitic
R12 in what language do the Iranians or Saudis allow Jews or Christian to learn in their Universities?
[quote]Palestine has no such deep pocket lobby. Therefore they can rot.
This is spectacularly ignorant. Palestinians have deep-pocket backers in the kingdoms and emirates that line the Persian Gulf. Take a look at the donations to universities in the U.S. and the U.K. that promote Arab studies and Palestinian issues, guess who you'll find. Take a look at the pressure to cancel a program an U.S. university to study antisemitism, guess who you'll find. Take a look at funding for so-called anti-apartheid programs, guess who you'll find.
R15, I don't have a horse in this race, but are we going back to A.D. 70?
Is Texas going back to Mexico, California too. Oh and Florida to Spain?
Well you have now R14. It's been made on Datalounge for many years. I think they exaggerate the acceptance of gays in Israel, though.
[quote]The Israeli government has done a great job of demonizing all Arab people in the media
Or were we supposed to buy that claim on your say-so? Did you expect us to make the connection to "you-know-who controls the media" and not even contest you?
The thing Americans should be asking is why the hell are we in the middle of all these territorial, religious conflicts of other people when we are stewing in our own shit right here?
The Muslims abroad can't stand Americans and any peace brokering role America tries to play is a joke.
And why when our infrastructure is in the toilette are we sending gazillions to wealthy Israel?
OP, you gave yourself away. You are from England. A lot of the British hate Jews big time.
[quote]Arabs have full civil rights in Israel.
Arabs are not only allowed in the IDF, they become officers. Meanwhile in Iran, Jews may join the army, but are not allowed to become officers. Do any Arab countries allow Jews in the armed forces? How many Arab countries still have a Jewish community greater than 100 strong?
Arabs are represented in the Knesset. Arabs represent Israel as ambassadors. Arabs are licensed as doctors and lawyers and work side by side with Jewish doctors and lawyers. Meanwhile over in Lebanon, Palestinians are restricted from licensing as professionals and are prohibited from working in several fields.
Whenever someone screams "Antisemite!" anytime someone tries to open up a debate on this issue, it automatically tells the audience that the person is not too bright and doesn't really understand the full scope of the problem.
It's a really quick and dirty way of trying to shut down any conversation on the matter and I really resent it.
There is a growing movement among liberal, secular Jewish people living in the diaspora who are fed up with Israel and do not want to be linked to them any longer.
r20 the Israeli government has spend millions of dollars on a sophisticated media blitz to promote Israel as a gay tourist destination. It's actually called "Brand Israel".
At the same time that they are promoting themselves as "liberal towards gays" they are also promoting the idea that Arabs are barbaric in comparison and we have bought it hook, line and sinker.
Whenever you see something being pushed in the media, as a critically thinking adult, you must wonder WHY it is being pushed. You must look BEHIND the gloss to see the true intentions.
[quote]All I see are a lot of excuses but it all boils down to the fact that Israel was carved out of an already existing nation
That is a complete and shameless fabrication. There was no nation state in that area. Prior to the downfall of the Ottoman Empire, that area was part of a province of that empire.
The League of Nations set up mandates in the middle east to create new nations. France was given the mandate to set up Lebanon and Syria. Jews living in the Golan Heights were forced out by France when it created Syria. And Great Britain was given the mandate to create a Jewish homeland in the Palestinian Mandate. And the first thing Great Britain did was carve out over 75% of the Palestinian Mandate to create the kingdom of Trans-Jordan.
[quote]Israel built a huge wall to confine Palestinians on the West Bank.
Israel started building that barrier in response to the Second Intifada. It did not build that wall in 1948 or 1956 or 1967 or 1973. That wall was not started as an apartheid measure. That wall was built to keep Palestinian terrorists from blowing up buses and restaurants full of civilians in Israel.
Thanks for the blather, r25. I asked for examples of the Israeli government demonizing all Arab people in the media. You still haven't provided any examples. I won't hold my breath waiting on you to substantiate your claim, as you are clearly incapable of anything other than bleating slogans like the sheep you are.
R19. Have you been to Israel?
r26, don't you find something a little bit wrong with the white European powers arbitrarily carving out land and deciding who and who doesn't get land and power?
Like always, the root of the evil lies with the former British Empire. There is absolutely nothing those imperialist pigs touched that didn't turn to shit. The Middle East, India and Pakistan, Africa and Jamaica. All of the territories, besides the white settler countries like the US, Australia and New Zealand, have all gone to hell because the British imperialists were fond of hastily dividing land with no thought or consideration to the intricate power dynamics and cultures of the indigenous peoples.
No, r28, you are the sheep blindly believing everything Israel tells you. You are so willing to overlook their crimes because they throw gay people a few scraps and they are WHITE and not dirty brown people.
See? Two can play that reactionary game.
There is a reason why the Neoconservatives and the fundies have latched onto supporting Israel. The GOP's staunch allegiance to Israel should be your first clue that the country is fucked up. The conservatives don't support anything that is truly just. They always get into bed with crooks and murderers.
No real liberal would ever find themselves on the side of that brutal imperialist oppressor state known as Israel. Many people are waking up to this fact and if you want to be blind then so fucking be it but I refuse to be sold lies.
[quote][R26], don't you find something a little bit wrong with the white European powers arbitrarily carving out land and deciding who and who doesn't get land and power?
What I find is that you didn't own up to your false claim. Back at r11 you claimed that Israel was carved out of an existing nation. I showed that you were wrong, and instead of apologizing for not bothering to get your facts right, you just moved on to another issue. So let's say it again together:
There was no existing nation of Palestine. The League of Nations faced the problem of building new states in the region and set up mandates to create the new states of Syria, Lebanon and Israel.
If you want to return things to the way they were, then not only do you have to dissolve the nation of Israel, you also have to dissolve Lebanon, Syria and the kingdom of Jordan.
As for the evil states of Europe stepping in, who else was there to clean up the mess the Turks had created by colonizing the middle east and taking their wealth for centuries? The European states created nations where once had been colonies, undeveloped and languishing in subjugation to their Ottoman masters.
R31, if you want evidence to back up anything I've stated, just ask. Meanwhile, you've been asked to back up your claims and all you do is try to change the subject. Weak, weak, weak. Pathetic really.
[quote]No real liberal would ever find themselves on the side of that brutal imperialist oppressor state known as Israel.
The brutal imperialist oppressor state in this situation was the Ottoman Empire. Had it not been for their centuries of oppression and colonization, independent nation states could have built themselves over the years. Instead the Ottomans kept the area subjugated. The Europeans had to clean up the mess the Ottomans created. And they created independent modern states, all of them Arab, except for the state of Israel.
Take a look at your anti-Israel comrades. Ask how many of them want to recreate the caliphate. They like brutal imperialist oppressor states as long as Muslims are in charge.
The audience reaction to Obama's speech in Israel this past week has really tempered my thoughts on Israelis as a whole. They're clearly not all rabid Zionists who are convinced their shit doesn't stink; therefore, I'm reminded of how important it is to nurture a strong relationship with our staunchest ally in the Middle East. That said, I don't think Israel deserves to be coddled and placated all the fucking time, and it's to their detriment if they keep playing the "anti-Semite" card whenever they're criticized. I also think that U.S. politicians would be wise to quit sucking up to AIPAC, whose span of influence is laughable at this point.
r34, I originally didn't answer you because it was a stupid question that you asked.
Of course Palestine did exist. It was not always a "nation-state" in the modern context, but the land of Palestine has existed for 3000 years. For the vast majority of it's history it was subjugated by foreign powers...the Egyptians, Persians, Romans, Crusaders and Ottomans among others. Records of Palestinian people and culture have been documented by all of these imperial powers in relations to that region.
The Native Americans didn't have nation states either. Did that justify what the Europeans did to them?
At r11, you didn't claim that Palestine existed. You claimed that "Israel was carved out of an already existing nation." That is false, unless you mean the already existing nation of the Ottoman Empire. Palestine was province of that empire and prior to that had been subjugated by other people. Your initial claim at r11 was false, and all you're doing now is trying to change the subject. Again.
Weak, weak, weak.
[quote]As for the evil states of Europe stepping in, who else was there to clean up the mess the Turks had created by colonizing the middle east and taking their wealth for centuries? The European states created nations where once had been colonies, undeveloped and languishing in subjugation to their Ottoman masters.
Thank God for the White Man, right? The White Man's Burden for bringing civilization to all the brown people. If it weren't for the White Man, brown people would be living in mud huts and sitting in their own shit.
[quote]The Native Americans didn't have nation states either. Did that justify what the Europeans did to them?
What the Europeans did with the remnants of the Ottoman Empire is not parallel to the colonization of North America. In the middle east, the League of Nations created modern, independent states, ruled by the indigenous people of the region.
Yeah, yeah, blah, blah, Israel can do no wrong, blah, blah, Arabs are evil, yeah, blah, blah...
The Ottoman Empire left a giant mess in the middle east. Who do you think was in a position to create modern states? If not the European nations, who do you think should have done it? Who had the ability to create modern states that could be independent out of backward provinces, which had been subjugated and robbed of their wealth, completely lacking in modern infrastructure and modern institutions or technology? The Saudis? The Egyptians? Iranians? Russians? If they had come into to run things, they would have created empires of their own. Not only would there be no Israel, there would be no Syria or Lebanon.
[quote] Israel can do no wrong,
Who claimed that? Please, point it out to me, because I missed that entirely.
r38, what is weak is that you're resorting to word semantics instead of addressing the REAL issue which is Israel's treatment of the Palestinians and America cosigning everything that they do.
Remember last November when Palestinians killed a couple of IDF soldiers so Israel retaliates by killing 200 men, women and children?
What about that? Or is that okay in your mind because you see the Palestinians as gay-bashing barbarians and the Israelis as gay loving white people?
Resorting to semantics? I pointed out your fabrication. Let's call a spade a spade. You were lying. You claimed that Israel had been created out of an existing nation. You were lying. And instead of admitting an "error," you just pushed ahead and started criticizing me.
Pointing out your lies is not mere semantics. And calling my accusation semantics doesn't wash your hands of the lies you tell.
The only existing nation there was the Ottoman Empire, and we all know that's not what you meant.
[quote]Remember last November when Palestinians killed a couple of IDF soldiers so Israel retaliates by killing 200 men, women and children?
What Israel did is to respond to a threat against its citizens. Gazans had resumed firing rockets and mortars into Israel. And they fired those from inhabited civilian areas. When Israel fired back at the firing sites, they killed people in Gaza.
I am not happy that people died on either side. But people in Gaza wanted to fight with Israel. They lost.
I noticed that you pointed out 2 Israelis died. Then you claimed 200 men, women and children in Gaza were killed. The Huffington Post writes that 161 people were killed, 71 being civilians. I don't know if they're correct, but I'll go with those numbers for now.
Yes, those numbers were disparate. If fighters in Gaza didn't want civilians to be killed, then they wouldn't have fired from civilian areas. At this point, after thousands of rockets and mortars have been fired from civilian areas in Gaza, I can only deduce that the fighters there believe that civilian casualties on their side are desirable. Sad, but probably true.
[quote]In the middle east, the League of Nations created modern, independent states, ruled by the indigenous people of the region.
The League of Nations (ie The European Powers) issued these mandates as a transitioning phase but in reality, and most serious historians would agree, that the mandates were in fact a round about way for Britain and France to enact a massive financial power grab. Another case of economic exploitation.
A massive power grab in which the "colonizers" created modern, independent states?
How very evil of them.
r48, it is very rare to see someone who actually defends what the Europeans did in the Middle East, but here you are. You're just exposing yourself for what you are.
And what am I, r48? They didn't take the property for their own, did they? Look at Egypt and Transjordan. After the war in 1948, Egypt and Transjordan were given the task of helping the Palestinians create a state for themselves. Egypt was given control of Gaza; Transjordan was given control of the West Bank. Did either Egypt or Transjordan help the Palestinians set up a state? No. And not only that, Jordan annexed the West Bank and took it for themselves. The Europeans weren't perfect, but they did fulfill their mandates and created independent states.
I don't understand why Israel won't just set it up that the West Bank and the Gaza Strip belong to Palestine and let them form their own nation. Withdraw those settler camps and end the rhetoric and violence. Israel is the one in the position of power so it is up to them to end this conflict.
I love how the Zionist troll in this thread keeps blatantly glossing over Israel's crimes against humanity. There is no excuse for state sanctioned segregation.
[quote]I don't understand why Israel won't just set it up that the West Bank and the Gaza Strip belong to Palestine and let them form their own nation.
Once upon a time, Israel and the PLO went to Oslo to negotiate. After much wrangling they and others came up with the Oslo Accords. There are many provisions. But relevant to your question is this: Israel and the PLO agreed that the borders and the settlements would be negotiated as part of the final settlement. Also relevant is that the PLO agreed that it would NOT seek to gain recognition of a Palestinian state outside negotiations.
Now some of the things agreed to in the accords have come to pass. The Palestinian Authority has been set up. Israel has withdrawn from section A. Israel and the PA share control of section B. But Mahmoud Abbas won't come to the table to negotiate the final settlement. He demanded that Israel stop all construction in the settlements before he would continue negotiations. Israel did so and stopped for ten months. And Abbas still wouldn't negotiate a final settlement. Furthermore, Israel made more than one offer to Abbas, including one offer that included sharing Jerusalem. Abbas didn't even bother to respond with a counteroffer. He just walked away.
Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip unilaterally. It spent billions of dollars and alienated many citizens by doing so. The Palestinians in Gaza responded by not only continuing to launch rockets into Israel, they actually increased the rate of attacks. Israel is not going to do that again. They are not going to withdraw totally from the West Bank without having negotiated borders with the PA.
Some day, when the Palestinians want a state of their own more than they want to destroy Israel, then perhaps they'll finish the negotiations.
Where is this state-sanctioned segregation?
In Lebanon, where Palestinians are prevented by law from owning property? In Lebanon, where Palestinians are prevented by law from working in many occupations and professions?
R42, with all due respect it was Britain which encouraged and nurtured Arab nationalism in World War I. And after World War II. The Ottomans never did and Turkey never did.
The French would prefer to keep the whole area in colonial subjugation. But Allenby, T.E. Lawrence, and that no-good pig St. John Philby were more into the whole feudalism scene.
Not only did the Brits encourage Arab nationalism, they encouraged violent Arab feudalism, refusing to help the Arabs seek modernity.
Oh get OFF it already. Are you now arguing that the Israelis treat the Palestinians equally and justly? You really don't want to go down that track, do you?
Why do we as Americans have to have our taxpayer dollars going towards this project in the Middle East? Shouldn't we as Americans be able to vote on issues like this? I bet if you put it up to a vote most Americans would be very reluctant to give the BILLIONS of dollars that we do to Israel. I think most Americans would be sick if they knew that we're basically Israel's sugar daddy.
r55 has the right of it.
If you're claiming that the Israelis practice state-sanctioned apartheid, then give me your facts. I really can't argue against overblown, nonspecific claims about how evil Israelis are.
R55, how is your statement an argument [italic]against[/italic] what I at r42? In r42, I spoke of how the Ottomans left a mess in the middle east. And they did. They colonized, took what they wanted, subjugated the people. They did not build infrastructure or modern institutions. That the British came in at the twilight of the Ottoman Empire and supported Arab nationalism does not argue against what I said.
Can't you people cut Israel a break?
How soon you forget the Holocaust!
Fuck off, r61.
Britain encouraged feudalism in India too.
Why? Because they didn't have to spend money on state building if they used existing social relations. They were cheapskates.
I'm sure the Ottomans were the same. The only difference was that at home the British people built a modern state in defiance of that weird upper class.
The support for Israel is of course far deeper and more complex than most of the suppositions (and complaints) offered here. America is a leadership center for world Jewry. Israel is, for all its flaws, a democracy with numerous strategic alliances and policies aligned with American interests. Yes, interests. And Israel's right to exist under international law is in a permanent state of challenge by its neighbors.
America has tolerated far, far greater domestic foulness with many of its other allies than it has with Israel. As you sit surrounded by Chinese goods, pondering all the fair nations of the Middle East providing us with oil, try not to choke on your hypocrisy.
Quit asking naively for a vote on foreign affairs. No such nonsense has ever been tolerated - if you don't like policy, vote in the group whose positions are similar to yours.
The Palestinian issues would have been and would be tractable and solvable - regardless of the various asses in leadership positions in Israel - if the Palestinians had not been chronically weakened by a corrupt and self-serving pack of leaders all too ready to rely on violence aimed at the existence of the Israeli state. Shame on Israel for all continued subjugation and delay in dealing fairly with the Palestinians. But shame on the OP and others here for acting as if they are talking about one thing when it is quite clear they are talking about another.
Blinders in place, don't presume to call out Israel without perspective, context, and admission of your underlying polemics.
Read Sarah Schulman's book on this subject. She brilliant dissects the issue as a lesbian, Jewish woman against Israel. It's really smartly written.
The Palestinian issue was not solvable as long as Israel supported the corrupt and foreign Jordanian monarchy against them; and while Israel supported the corrupt Egyptian military against them. Yes, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was a terrible Nazi back in the 1940s, but Israel did not support Palestinian leaders who might have negotiated with them, did they? What did they ever do for a Hanan Ashrawi, for example?
My, r66, what a jumble of crap. Are you seriously claiming that prior to 1967, that Egypt and Jordan didn't set up a Palestinian state is all Israel's fault? Seriously? You're claiming that Israel supported the Egyptian military? Would that be the same Egyptian military that Israel opposed in 1956 when Israel captured the Sinai peninsula?
And you're really claiming that Israel supported the Jordanian monarchy. Wow. That would be the Jordanian monarchy whose army ethnically cleansed the West Bank of Jews. That would be the Jordan that prevented Jews from worshipping at the Western Wall while it controlled (annexed) the West Bank. That would be the Jordan that took Jewish headstones and used them as paving material. Oh yeah, that was all Israel's fault.
Sweet fucking Christ, you are a loon, r66.
It's a historical fact that Palestinians would have taken over Jordan in 1970 without Israeli support for the Hashemite criminal class.
[quote]American jews support Israel. American jews are big political contributers.Politicians live and die by financial backers. Ergo the American political establishment backs Israel.Palestine has no such deep pocket lobby. Therefore they can rot.
Bullshit. Arabs have far more wealth than Jews. Why don't they counteract the Jewish lobby? Because they know it would be futile. Any politician that favored the Arabs would be defeated because the American people support Israel and regard the Arabs as hostile to our values.
I think it's more subtle than that. Clearly Arabs do interfere in American elections and have been doing so since the 1970s. The rise of the Stephens family of Arkansas has been largely a mask for their influence, as was BCCI and their stable of pets like Bert Lance and George Ball. The Saudis were obviously close to both the Clintons and the Bushes.
The question is what do they perceive in their interest, and I think it's quite possible they like the Israel-U.S. combination in the Middle East as an external enemy that prevents demands for internal reform in their own societies.
I agree with R21.
"Of course, OP. This is only about the only Jewish country on earth (out of 196 in total), and the home of just a measly 40% of the world's Jews - it has nothing at all do to with Judaism."
India has 99% of the world's Hindus. If one criticizes Indian policy does that make one anti-Hindu?
If one opposed Franco/Mussolini/Hirohito/Peron/Bush, did that mean that one hated Spanish/Italian/Japanese/Argentinean/American people?
And does your logic mean that Jewish Israelis who are against Israeli policy are anti-Semites as well (or that Americans who opposed the Iraq War were anti-American?)
(Does anybody think about how ridiculous their arguments are anymore?)
Criticizing Israel's policies is not antisemitic, though many antisemites cloak their rhetoric with "zionist" labels. Criticizing Israel's existence is most often done by antisemites
Talk about a one track mind, OP. Not everything is about gay rights you know. The larger issue with Isreal is its current conservative gov't (call it Zionist if you must)Which is as determined as any radical Islamic state to deny Israel its existance, to deny Palistinians an independent state. They continue to colonize territory conquered by war and of course must stop doing so to be able to create a Palilitinian state. Obama was very clever on his trip appealing to younger more liberal Israelis by pointing out that their country cannot live in a walled off isolate "state" and survive. No amount of military power will assure their security.
The Israeli gov't needs to moderate because to achieve a stable Israeli state, they must create an independent Palistinian state. If they do not, there long term existance is going to be very difficult to maintain.
Zionists are just as out there as Muslim fundementalist and their theocratic states.
In general good ole W and his evil VP radicalized the entire Middle East. Perhaps these pushes for democracy in other states would have been much calmer (less opposed) if the US did not aircraft carriers, drones and warplanes all over the place- used much to wrecklessly by one George W Bush.