- Her bodyguard, Clint Hill, wrote Mrs. Kennedy and Me. He talks about it. He was on the running board of the car behind the President and First Lady. He jumped off and began running to catch up with the Presidential Limousine, which had already begun to speed up. She saw him coming, tried to give him a hand, and he made it. Some people said she was trying to escape the carnage she had just survived. I couldn't blame her.
- She was retrieving the top of his head.
- Yes, in the trauma of the moment our beautiful and beloved Jackie thought that the doctors at the hospital would actually need the skull fragments on the trunk of the car to put her husband's head back together. Truly horrifying and heartbreaking. Whatever her faults, and there were few to be honest, she gets a pass forevermore in my book for those few awful moments in Dallas.
- She had noticed Marilyn Monroe in the crowd and was pointing and screaming, "No! Shoot that bitch!"
- Not her best performance. Patricia Neal deservedly won for HUD.
- I always thought she saw the chicken cross the road and given the circumstances decided to do the same thing.
- The wind had caught her pill-box hat and she wasn't going to let that get away.
- "She saw him coming, tried to give him a hand..."
Really? In her little pink pillbox hat she's trying to pull up a 200 lb. man into the deathcar with her?
She's clearly reaching out for help from the running guy, but for some reason retreats back to the seat.
I don't think Jackie loved Jack. It was an arranged marriage and he was a flagrant philanderer. She was probably more traumatized than anguished.
- Eyewitnesses claimed she yelled out, "Ahhhhh, hell nah! You all better get me the fuck outta here!"
- There are three possibilities:
1) She was trying to get the fuck out of there because she was a sitting duck in that damned limousine as far as she knew
2) She was trying to retrieve fragments of the president's head
3) She was trying to help the Secret Service member into the car.
#3 is by far the least likely, because how the hell is a tiny 100-lb woman going to help a massive 200 lb. Secret Service agent into the presidential limousine while its in motion?
However, we will never know, because throughout her life she maintained she blocked the memory of it out and could not remember what was going through her mind. Maybe she actually remembered, but I doubt she told anyone. Even if she did, Caroline and Lee aren't going to tell anyone, and John-John and Ari and RFK are all dead.
- We all know what was going through JFK's mind at that moment...
- I had read that she was trying to retrieve part of his skull but I don't know. She probably felt like a sitting duck.
Let's face it, our military and CIA did that little crime. Pretty disgusting when you think about it.
The truth never comes out about anything in our, Oh SO FREE democracy.
- Jackie Ho was a vapid twit. She probably remembered she had a blood-free outfit she could change into sitting in the trunk.
- I never bought that she was retrieving his skull for the doctors to put back together. I don't think she would've had the presence of mind. Even before I learned about that theory and first watched the footage as a kid, it always looked like she was trying to get the hell out of there. Hell, if I heard several loud bangs and someone's head beside me was blown off, my instinct would be to jump up and get the hell out of there. I think when she got to the back of the car, it dawned on her what she was doing, that she was on a moving vehicle, which had suddenly sped up, and that's why she went back to her seat.
- In the end, it doesn't really matter. It's even kind of a silly question. People do weird shit during moments of crisis and panic. Once her husband's brains landed on her, I doubt she was thinking very clearly.
- "is by far the least likely, because how the hell is a tiny 100-lb woman going to help a massive 200 lb. Secret Service agent into the presidential limousine while its in motion?"
Gee, perhaps under the shock of the moment, she wasn't thinking with complete clarity; not to mention that during periods where adrenalin is surging - such as when one has just been shot at - the body can accomplish amazing feats of strength.
- Comedian Lenny Bruce caused heads to explode when he joked that what the beloved Jackie was really doing was: "hauling ass to save her ass!"
- One of the doctors at the hospital said that Mrs Kennedy held out a piece of JFKs skull with brain and hair stll attached, She had it in her hand and gave it to the doctor who was working on him in the ER.Apparently she thought it could be reattached.In a clear copy of the film you can see her reach with her right hand and grab the skull fragment, where it had landed on the trunk. She then turns around and is already half way back to the seat when the secret service man nudges her the rest of the way down. Clint Hill has always said she was reaching for the skull fragment.BTW it was rumored the had a post JFK affair with Hill. In his book he sounds like he was in love. Of course at 83 he'll never admit it.Taking it too his grave.
- I don't think she was trying to get away. If someone starts shooting, your instincts would be to crouch down, not climb onto the back of the car.
- Give her a break! Her husband was killed!
- I think she was trying to get help.
- R19, she was fleeing for her life. Bullets were whizzing around her and she had just seen half her husband's head explode and splatter all over everything including herself. She must have been in a blind animal panic. Had the car accelerated faster she might have been thrown off the back and seriously injured striking the pavement. Imagine if both she and he had been killed.
- Lenny Bruce did a whole bit about it - essentially, he said she was "hauling ass to save ass." This is in 1965, mind you.
- I should have been cast in this film!
Little Edie Beale
- Grabbing for his head chunks.
- R10 has it right.
- She wasn't trying to get away, the reflexive instinct, as pointed out, would've been to duck down, but she was climbing out reaching for skull fragments.
She cradled him in her arms until they reached the hospital, wouldn't let them take him from the car until they'd covered him so no one could see the damage.
As I got older and saw the Zapruder film, I realized how very close she came to getting shot herself. I think Jackie was truly brave in an instinctive way few people men or women would've been under the circumstances.
I consider her actions heroic, and I'll always love her and admire her. People hated that she married Onassis. So what.
- Don't forget, she's sitting there being sprayed with her husbands blood and brain matter AND hearing John Connally in front of her yelling, "My God, they're killing us all" as he was bleeding from a gunshot wound himself. You can't blame her for not reacting rationally.
- [quote]is by far the least likely, because how the hell is a tiny 100-lb woman going to help a massive 200 lb. Secret Service agent into the presidential limousine while its in motion.
Do you think she was going to lift him up? Offering a steadying hand in those circumstances is not unrealistic...and very brave.
- Gov Connelly had just ripped a smelly one.
- Has Mrs. Connelly ever commented? Wasn't she in the car, too?
- Her instinct was to protect her husband.
That just goes straight to your heart.
- R28, WTF is rational about that situation? Your instincts take over and adrenalin kicks in. I believe her, that her mind blocked out those moments.No one knows how theey'll react. Her first reaction was to cradle him. She didn't duck or cower, she protected. So It's safe to say she was trying to rescue his brain matter. The Zapruder tape OP provided makes it pretty obvious.
- Amazing to think now that only one man, Mr. Zapruder, had the foresight to be out there filming this thing.
- it wasn't foresight. It's not unusual now, and it wasn't then, to film/tape famous people visiting your town. Sheesh!
- Oh please! She was trying to get the hell out of there. Flight. She was fleeing. She didn't do anything special that any one of us wouldn't do. The car sped up so she was forced to sit down in heels and a skirt. You'd know this if you have experience in a rag top. I'm so sick of people trying to make more of her than who she really was. She wasn't akin to one of those daring female aviators during the war. She wasn't anyone truly special as she went on to prove. People mistook her case of shock for stoicism. She dressed well but she needed that edge as her face was plain and nondescript. Save the accolades for authentic heroines.
- quote]She was trying to get the hell out of there. Flight.
Most people exit a car through the doors...cunt.
- After seeing the carnage, Jackie knew they'd be at the hospital forever. Seeing the sign...she just HAD to get to Subway...FAST
- This is the part of the Zapruder film that the American public was never allowed to see at the time.
- She was NOT reaching for skull fragments! Who in their right mind would buy that explanation? It looks like she sat on him as he slumped to his left when her attempt to flee was aborted. She retreated to the safety of the seat in a now speeding vehicle. Is there further footage out there when the car came to a halt?
- I don't think the car ever came to a halt, r40 - do you mean when it got to the hospital? I don't believe there's any footage of that.
- I don't like r13 one bit.
- Thank you R39. Case closed. She even went so far as to swat him away from her as she high tails it out of there! She reacts in disgust it seems. Not protective at all. Who started those brain matter rumors? Total farce and gullible queens bought it. I agree with the post that claims people made more of her than she was. I guess some people needed a hero in this tragic debacle. Her instinct was to bail and save herself as it should have been. I agree there was nothing extraordinary, in any way about her. There you have it. I knew I'd be proven correct. Her track record exposes who she really was. This video proves it. I've always suspected those stories of her to be unfounded, wishful thinking dramatics.
- This isn't funny. A woman's husband and father of her children had his head blown up right next to her. Traumatic for anyone. How do you pull yourself out of that depression, or do you ever?
- She was trying to avoid a loogie directed at Keith Hernandez.
- What say you now, oh gullible fools who claim she was being protective? It can be seen clearly that her first reaction is to push him away. Then she uses his shoulder to propel herself the hell out of there as any mere mortal would.
It has gone very quiet in here after the exposing link was posted.
- How would she have known a chunk of his head was back there? She didn't look around and see a bloody chunk. She immediately jumped out reflexively. The guy on the back of her car may have shouted something to Jackie, gaining her attention. However, he was probably telling her to duck or get down. Instead she hoped he was coming to save her and help her escape.
Sad either way.
- Watch again. She's horrified and pushes him away then USES his body as leverage (her left hand on his left shoulder)to try to escape. She makes two abandoning gestures. Two. Then she hunches down to protect herself when her attempt to escape goes awry. Nothing heroic about it except her own instincts to save herself. Let this be the last word on those silly myths of her being protective and dabbling in brain matter. This case is closed.
- One of the doctors at the hospital said that Mrs Kennedy held out a piece of JFKs skull with brain and hair stll attached, She had it in her hand and gave it to the doctor who was working on him in the ER.Apparently she thought it could be reattached.In a clear copy of the film you can see her reach with her right hand and grab the skull fragment, where it had landed on the trunk. She then turns around and is already half way back to the seat when the secret service man nudges her the rest of the way down. Clint Hill has always said she was reaching for the skull fragment
Is this how that inane rumor got legs?
- Clint Hill is one of those old people who doesn't realize the internet will find the real truth. You can't go around lying and embellishing incidents today as was par for the course of that generation. A brain surgeon wouldn't react like he claims this breathy bimbo did. Camelot will go down in history for what it really was. A big farce.
- [quote]People mistook her case of shock for stoicism
People didn't know she was zonked on tranquilizers for the next few days also. The Kennedys were but two of the millions who got roped on the carousel ride of uppers and downers that were readily prescribed, often in tandem, in those days. Max Jacobson, who played "Dr. Feelgood" to the stars in NYC before losing his medical license, was a frequent visitor to the Kennedy White House.
- [R50] Thanks. You are so observant.It is way obvious that in the Z film that Jackie was holding a pistol in her left hand and she blew her cheating hubbys head off in revenge.The co-conspirators in the car heard her scream "That's for Marilyn you SOB!"It's way apparent when Aristotle Onassis jumps on the back of the car and gives Jackie a big wet kiss then they both kick and stomp JFK's bleeding body. So glad your youthful eyes caught what geezer Clint Hill missed after all these years.History is made (re-made) by the young, not the old farts who were there.
- R50 Yep,the internet that's where I go for the truth.You betcha.
- R53, the Mainstream Media lied and continues to lie about the Kennedy assassinations. That much is beyond dispute. The Internet has a lot of bullshit, but you can find a lot of truth on it too.
The Internet informed the US public that Saddam Hussein did not have a vast arsenal of WMDs BEFORE the Iraq War. How long did it take the MSM to catch up to the truth? How much money did they and their cronies in the Military/Industrial Complex make before they started to come clean about the war?
Mrs. Connally has indeed commented and even written about her experience in her book.
- I used to think she was trying to escape the car until I watched the Zapruder video linked earlier in this thread.
Now I believe she was retrieving pieces of the president's head. Before the head shot, you can see Jackie leaning toward JFK to see what was wrong. He had been shot in the throat. She is making that realization and turning to get help just as he is shot in the head. He slumps toward her, she continues to turn and seems to follow the flying piece of skull to where it lands on the back of the car. She grabs it and begins turning to get back in her seat just as her bodyguard reaches out and puts his hand on her wrist.
She was in the middle of a confusing, dangerous situation. Her thought was her husband's condition. If you've ever been in a life-threatening scenario before, you know how unbelievably dumb your thought process gets. That's why I find it completely believable that, even though the man's head was in shambles, she thought he would be ok. She probably thought they would speed to the hospital and doctors would fix him up. I wonder at what point she realized he was dead.
- I watched it over and over to see if the Zapruder film could convince me to agree with you, R56. With all due respect, she still looks to me like she's trying to flee the situation in terror.
[quote]It's not unusual now, and wasn't then, to film/tape famous people visiting your town.
And yet only Zapruder's film survives. So far as we know. Without it the 'Oswald Alone' faction might have seemed less implausible.
- I saw JFK's autopsy photos and they are incredibly gruesome! His head looked like someone stuck an explosive in a metal can and it busted open with sharp edges. His brain was totally exposed.
Anyone exposed to a body in that condition right next them would be in terror of course, but especially a woman in Jackie's high society position.She grew up in an isolated sheltered environment far removed from the horrors and reality that the world contains.Then she was exposed to thee most extreme carnage and danger that she never remotely could have imagined seeing and experiencing.
Bobby's son was interviewed for an article a year a two ago about his father and about his uncle's death.He said his father believed there was a second shooter,and he said his father, Bobby, was never the same after his uncle, JFK died. He said he felt very empty ,and he never stopped trying to find answers about his brother's death. Also, his son said his father went along with the Warren Commission Report, but he knew it was all complete BS.
- Incidentally, I'm reading an Armchair Reader book bout the last survivors of historical events, movies, disasters, etc. The Kennedy assassination is featured, naturally.
[quote]On November 22, 1963, President John F. Kennedy was fatally shot as he proceeded in a motorcade through the streets of Dallas, Texas. Nellie Connally, wife of Texas Governor John Connally, was the last survivor of those riding in the limousine with Kennedy. Connally passed away on September 1, 2006.
[quote]Passengers in the car in which President Kennedy was assassinated: President Kennedy, who sat in the right rear seat, died soon after being shot on November 23, 1963; Special Agent Roy Kellerman, who sat in the front passenger seat, died in 1984; Agent William Greer, the driver, died in 1985; Governor Connally, who sat in the right jump seat in front of President Kenney died in 1993; First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy, who sat in the left rear seat, died in 1994; Nellie Connaly, who sat in the left jump seat in front of Jacqueline Kennedy, died in 2006,
- Mrs Connally said Mrs Kennedy cried out "They have killed my husband.I have his brains in my hands." She repeated this over and over on the way to the hospital.It would appear from this , she was cognizant of what had happened and that her reference to "his brains in my hands" supports her grabbing the skull fragment theory. Remember, this all occurred literally out of a clear blue sky. In SIX SECONDS. What would you do given just six seconds? Mrs Kennedy was quoted as saying one of her achievements in her life was " I didn't go crazy." A la Mrs Lincoln.DL's latter day revisionists should take that into account.
- I'm sorry #61, but that line sounds as canned as that astronaut's "One small step for man...". Didn't his wife have her own ordeal going on in the front seat? Who's "they"- did Jackie know how many shooters? Imagine yourself in the situation; would you be speaking in complete, coherent sentences or just screamming your head off?
- R61 The quote is from Mrs Connolly and is readily available on You Tube. FYI: Mrs Connolly was there.
- Puhleeeze. She knew that a period of mourning was going to be required of her soon, so she thought very quickly and remembered she had a gorgeous black number that would be just what the doctor ordered, but it was in her luggage in the trunk, so she knew there would be little time to change in the hospital....
- R62 I concur. What she actually screamed was:
"The CIA,Mafia,Castro,russians,Onassis,LyndonJohnson,the Pope,the Bush's,the Pentagon,J.Edgar Hoover,Lee Harvey Oswald's evil twin and everyone alive over 12 years old in 1963 killed my husband." Jackie was one smart gal.
- It is as plain as day that the shot that killed JFK came from in front of him, not from behind and way above him.
- I agree 66 and that anyone could say otherwise is astounding. His skull appears to peel from front to back not back to front as you watch the film. Especially as you watch the film reverse, to reattaches back to front.
But as the recent right wing media shows and the machinations of Rove, Fox News and company, just say something long enough and you can convince people to believe what you want them to even if their own logic would tell them something else if they dared to use it.
- R67 Three words: Lee Harvey Oswald
- The deification of Jackie HO is unbelievable. She clearly didn't want to get shot, like two other people in the motorcade. Ever hear of "fight or flight?" It's a natural human instinct to seek cover when you aren't in close proximity to the aggressor.
- r69 She stood up and crawled on to the trunk.Not exactly the definition of "duck & cover"
- If you actually look at the film all the other occupants of the car including the driver and secret service guy all do duck. Only Jackie stands up making herself a bigger
target not a smaller one.
- If you watch carefully, you can see the driver shoot Kennedy. A reacharound, if you will.
- 68 you can make it all caps and use a bold font but that doesn't change what I saw on the Zapruder film.
You keep telling yourself that.
- She saw a dollar on the sidewalk.
- R73 You saw a man getting his brains blown out. Not the man who blew them out. To find that man one needs logic and rational thinking.Qualities conspiratorialists lack.
- Three letters, R68 - C I A .
- She was yelling, "Instagram dat joint!"
- r68 Two letters: JC Crawford was in Dallas that day for a Pepsi convention.Mummie knew where to find the booze,boys and rifles.
- [quote]You saw a man getting his brains blown out. Not the man who blew them out. To find that man one needs logic and rational thinking.Qualities conspiratorialists lack.
- R66, that is why it took so long for the public to even be able to see the film. They knew there would be too many questions.
- I think some of you are forgetting about that the difference between an entry wound versus an exit wound.
Entry wounds are typically small; exit wounds are typically much bigger due to projectile malformation.
- Different angle:
- r81 is correct. The explosion of JFK's head is the exit wound, so the entry of the bullet is coming from behind him. I live in Dallas and have been to the Book Depository several times, and it's clear as day from looking out Oswald's window and from the Zapruder film that the shot came from up, behind and slightly at an angle -- the road curves southeast and down a hill away from the building; JFK is, at the moment of impact, turning towards Jackie; the bullet hits him from behind his left ear -- which would be directly in line of sight from Oswald's window.
- As for Jackie, I think it's also pretty clear that she's trying to get the hell out of there. The Secret Service guy is telling her to get back in and hunker down. She complies.
As for the story that she hand his brains in her lap and present them to the doctor -- not surprising, as brain matter was flying everywhere.
- [quote]The explosion of JFK's head is the exit wound, so the entry of the bullet is coming from behind him.
The back of JFK's head was blown out, that was the exit wound. So the bullet had to come from the front.
- I've got three words for you too.
- Except 85 his head, whole upper body actually, snaps back at the impact.
- R87, you would snap BACK from a shot coming from the FRONT, no?
- The Discovery Channel did a very interesting analysis of trajectories using lasers and dummies. Technology not available in 63. Pretty much proved the Warren Commision was correct. That all 3 shots came from behind the car. I think it was called "JFK in the target car."Its on You Tube. Check it out.
- R86 Five words: bolt.action.rifle.kills.good.
- How convenient, R89.
- r91 The truth often is.
- Well if The Discovery Channel says so, it must be true!
- What about Zapruder? I guess he was just some lucky schlub with a home movie camera but did he ever comment on his film? Did he make any money off of it?
It amazes me that there were NO TV cameras there filming the event!
- Oswald, alone, School Book Depository, period.
- She wanted to collect the brains so she could have him re-cloned.
- 61, she may have had fragments in her hands after she returned to her seat but she wasn't collecting them from the trunk.Only a moron would believe that.
- Actually there was a sci fi book written about just that. I remember reading it in school. Title was "Joshua Son of None." Don't recall the author. Didn't Stern have some guy on his show who clamed to have piece of JFK's skull in formaldyhde that his dad had found in the street after the shooting.
- r93 If DL says it.It must be true
- 94 Zapruder quickly got a lawyer and auctioned off the film to the highest bidder.Life magazine. I think he got $150,000.00 which was quite a haul back then. There was live tv coverage at the airport arrival and at the hall where JFK was to make speech. The shooting occurred at the very end of the parade, there were sparse crowds and that is why the secret service were not riding the back of the car. The car was just about to accelerate on to the freeway.In another minute he would have been home free.
- here were lots of people filming in the plaza where he was shot, just no professional film. The network cameras in those days weighed 300lbs and were attached to thick electric cables so were not very portable.Amatuers had the portable 8mm movie cameras like Zapruder and there were a least a dozen people filming. Zapruder got the "money shot" however so he did luck out.
- R56 you can see Jackie leaning toward JFK to see what was wrong. He had been shot in the throat. She is making that realization and turning to get help just as he is shot in the head. He slumps toward her, she continues to turn and seems to follow the flying piece of skull to where it lands on the back of the car. She grabs it and begins turning to get back in her seat just as her bodyguard reaches out and puts his hand on her wrist.
cannot be serious
- Please remember if you are referencing a previous post, write r and then the number of the post directly after the r with no space in between....or no one here will give a fuck what you're talking about.
- So other film of the ride exists but it's not as clear as the Zapruder version?
Since we're on the topic, how does one quote a specific part of a post in a reply?
- I wonder about the babushka lady.
- R105, go to Post a reply. Copy and paste the quote there. Before the beginning of the quote, type [quote ] but without any spaces.
You can only quote one paragraph at a time, but if you have more than one, you can apply the [quote ] to each one.
Thanks. So it's basically just like html code. Do I need to close it out with [/quote]
- "The Mainstream Media lied and continues to lie about the Kennedy assassinations. That much is beyond dispute. The Internet has a lot of bullshit, but you can find a lot of truth on it too."
Oh, my sides. Stop! Stop!
- No you don't need to close the quote.
- R109, stop cackling. You'll stop when you realize the "internet" to some of us includes news archives, medical encyclopedias and whole libraries. The "internet" as you know it is perusing porno, hook up sites and gossip boards. When you look at it from your eyes, well, I guess that comment could bring on the side splitting. Carry on.
- Eat your hearts out, bitches.
- Is everyone opining about the sequence of events and direction of fire doing so after scrutinizing the link at r39?
Is there a better link?
- Frankly we know Jackie married Jack for his money and also married Onasis, for his money. I think it's fine but it gets on my nerves if people try to make her a saint.
- Oh, loosen the bone, Wilma. I'm laughing at the conspiracy loonyness in that quote and the idea that the conspiracy websites have uncovered the truth.
- I'm not "making her a saint" but I won't go to the opposite extreme and attempt, as some here are doing, to marginalize her, and villify her, and insult and denigrate her actions at a moment of grave danger. I thought she was attempting to retrieve his skull fragments and I will not alter that opinion.
And since someone mentioned bolt. action. rifle. let me say for the one millionth time as I have on other Kennedy assassination threads:
They might have convinced us of a lone gunman had it not been for the rifle they brandished so triumphantly, along with the accompanying reciets tracking it to Oswald via a mail order house.
It is, and was, physically impossible to get off three shots, or even two within the time frame those shots were fired, if the shooter was using the rifle they claim as the murder weapon. N
ot only that, but the cheap, mail order rifle had a defective scope. This was well known as any gun enthusiast of the time could've told you. It was off.
And even if it had been calllibrated by an expert marksman to be accurate, after the first shot, it would've gone off again. The bolt action was reliably inaccurate, especially after the first shot.
So to my mind, JFK was murdered as part of a conspiracy, by more than one gunman.Lee Harvey Oswald was a fringe player in the conspiracy, and was the patsy, the dupe who got set up.
Oh. And Jackie behaved heroically that day climbing out on the trunk of the car to retrieve fragments of her husband's skull.
- What did Dorothy Kilgallen know? Was she murdered because of secrets she learned interviewing Jack Ruby in Dallas?
The Cerf of Mount Kisco
- Isn't there a long string of mysterious JFK-related deaths that occurred in the years following the assasination?
Im not arguing that she didn't turn around to retrieve fragments but (from the video I've seen) I can't see how she would know there were any to retrieve.
From what I saw, he gets shot and she immediately seems to turn around and lunge towards the back of the car. It just seemed that if she did go after fragments of skull she had an instant knowing that there was some on the trunk.
- Ill throw in that I dont think she was trying to help the bodyguard into the vehicle or trying to get his help out of there as she seems to completely ignore him.
- R116 read the book, Case Closed. I used to believe all that crap. Then this book explained all te theories as bullshit. After Watergate, every reporter would have loved to have exposed an assassination plot. There is no way a conspiracy would have stayed secret all these years. By the way, it was Oswalds gun, his scope. He knew how to compensate for its defects.
- [quote]There is no way a conspiracy would have stayed secret all these years
Exactly. Our government is horrible at keeping secrets. Maybe a dozen people knew about the Watergate break in. Cracked wide open. Half a dozen people knew about Iran/Contra. Cracked wide open. Only two people knew about Monica and Bill. Cracked wide open.
There was in the US at the time only one organization that could kill someone in broad daylight and get away with it. The Mob. And they certainly had the motive.
- R122 you are right but I'm convinced that the murder of JFK would have ended with a death bed confession...even from the mob.
- R123 True. However we would then have to count on whoever he confessed to would come forward. If it was a priest, they are not going to talk. If it was a family member they too are probably not going to say anything. The other possibility is they could still be alive.
- Yep, even the mob would've leaked, especially that high profile of a hit job.
It was Lee Harvey Oswald, acting alone.
For some people, the simple fact that one person did this is just too "simple," too easy and so they latch onto a conspiracy. Same with the 9/11 conspiracies -- the idea that a bunch Muslim terrorists with minimal pilot training could do this is, again, too "simple" an explanation, so they concoct elaborate stories to explain it.
- Our gov't has been horrible at keeping the secrets THAT GOT OUT. Who knows what they've been involved in that we'll never know about.
- [quote]Yep, even the mob would've leaked, especially that high profile of a hit job.
I don't know, they have been pretty good about keeping the lid on what happened to Jimmy Hoffa.
- r120 Jackie ignores him because she is looking down at the trunk where the skull fragment was. Look at her right arm.She extends it grabs the skull and then pulls her arm back. She is clearly reaching for something. Clint Hill testified she was doing just that. He was there.Doctor Malcolm Perry said she handed him a piece of skull in the ER. He was there.Jackie also said "Governor Connolly screamed like a stuck pig." After the 1st shot she looks a JFK leans into him then suddenly looks up at Connolly because he is screaming "like a stuck pig" this distracts her from JFK just long enough. By the time she looks back to him and grabs his left arm trying to push it down.She is about 6 inches away looking into his face when his head explodes.The Z film is like a Rorshach test or the Shroud of Turin people see what they want or need to see.
Yeah, I don't disagree that she could have been reaching for something, brain fragment or otherwise, but I still don't understand how she could have known there was anything back there to retrieve. Her response seems too immediate. From the video I've seen, she doesn't look over and then jump towards the back of the car. She's looking at her husband and then all of a sudden is lunging towards the back.
- Nonsense. The guys who did the hit were probably dead within 24 hours of the assasination. And the guys who killed them were gone too.
The rest of those guys, like Giancana, Roselli,etc. are dead. So who is gonna leak. Today people leak. Back then, not so much.
The mob killed JFK. Period. They learned a lot from hanging out with CIA contract killers when they got involved in the various plots to kill Castro. Probably hired a couple of them to do the hit.
Lot of people were getting shot bavck then. The CIA did a lot of "wet work" and hired contractors for it. Allende in Chile. Trujillo in the DR. A few others.
Back in the 50s and 60s the mob was very efficient. Tell you what. You give me the name of the guy(s) who are responsible for the disappearance of Jimmy Hoffa.
Tell me. Who killed him and how did he die? How was his body disposed of? When did that leak out? Where's the CREDIBLE deathbed confession?
SOme of you are analyzing things from the perspective of our times. But things were very different back then. It was easier to keep secrets. A lot easier.
And no, Oswald would not have been able to compensate for the scope being off. Even if he could have, he still could not have fired three shots in that amount of time from a bolt-action rifle. Get over yourself.
- r130 Allende in Chile was not a hit job, it was a fucking military coup (albeit with American endorsement), complete with tanks and the air force firing at the presidential palace.
- r130You saw a man getting his brains blown out. Not the man who blew them out. To find that man one needs logic and rational thinking.Qualities conspiratorialists lack.
I rest my case. Live long and prosper r130
- It's sort of hard to believe Jackie would use the term "screaming like a stuck pig" as one imagines she had little experience of hog butchery and "Deliverance" hadn't been filmed yet.
- How dare Connolly scream at all? No need to carry on like that when all he had was a huge hole in his chest. He should have been gracious enough to act in a more civilized manner so he didn't offend Mrs. Kennedy.
- r133 Direct quote she made during the interviews she gave William Manchester for the official assassination book "The Death of a President." Caroline has not authorized the release of these tapes but Manchester talked.It's common enough figure of speech.
Mrs Kennedy was correct.
"When one is shot in the chest by a high powered rifle. One should gently dab the wound with a white linen handkerchief.One should then apologize to ones guests and unobtrusively
egress from the automobile."
- [quote]Jackie Ho was a vapid twit.
Wow, you know absolutely nothing about the woman.
- r137 Knowing absolutely nothing is a requirement for posting on DL.
- and where, exactly, were President Kennedy's secret service detail during the shooting? It is curious that only Jackie's SS clint Hill was there trying to help.
- Too funny, R136.
- r139 In the book "The Kennedy Detail" the surviving members of JFK's secret service detail state for the record: In Tampa one week before Dallas JFK actually ordered his bodyguards not to ride on the back of the car. His words " Get those Ivy league charlatans off the car." Because Clint Hill was Mrs Kennedys bodyguard he did jump on the back of the car several times in Dallas when the crowd got too close to her side.Hill recalls JFK was glancing back at him and he knew he would be hauled on carpet when they got back to DC.If the SS were riding the back of his car as they wanted to, they would have body blocked Oswalds shots. Obviously the Secret Service didn't want to blame JFK's purely political decision(the people need to see me) for his own death so they did not put this on the record until now.BTW: the Lincoln limo was not armored and even if the top was up it was not bullet proof.
- It was a Chanel suit, right?
- Let's assume for a moment that Jackie was trying to save her own ass. You know what? Good. Good for her. If that's what she was doing, then she was doing the right thing. What was she supposed to do? Die with her husband? Jack was never a good husband to her, never. She had two young children who needed her, two young children to live for.Jack's children. Jackie always had survival instincts, and if that's what she was doing, then her instincts were serving her well.
- Jackie was wearing Chanel. Clint Hill was in Dior and Conoly was sporting a Schiaprelli.And yes... the stains never came out.
- r143 You betcha.
- It wasn't Chanel.
That pink bouclé suit was a Chanel knock-off by Oleg Cassini.
The hat was Halston.
- R121, Gerald Posner is a CIA shill who appears on Fox News planting seeds of propaganda. He is a disinformation specialist and his book Cased Closed is a load of horse manure.
- what happened to Jackies dress? does Carolyn keep in the attic and haul it out for her daughters bat mitzvah?
- Why did Dan Rather lie and tell the public that the Zapruder film showed JFK turning behind him and exposing his throat to the Book Depository when the film shows no such thing?
Until Arlen Specter invented the Magic Bullet Theory (for which he was rewarded with a near-lifetime Senate seat) everyone took it for granted that the throat wound was an entry wound. That is why Dan Rather invented a silly alibi about JFK turning his throat toward the so-called "sniper's lair." When Specter invented the hilarious and impossible "Magic Bullet Theory" Rather simply never referred to his initial lie ever again.
If the Zapruder film had truly implicated Oswald it would not have been locked away out of public view for all those years.
- (R148) I remember reading somewhere that Jackie's mother latched on to Jackie's dress and kept it at her home. Not sure what was done with it after she died. Actually, I think she outlived Jackie. Caroline must have it. Lee Radziwell might have gotten her grubby paws on them, but if she had it would have been sent off to Sotheby's faster than you can say "E-Bay."
The Chanel suit is stored in the National Archives and will not be shown until at least 2103 by demand of Caroline Kennedy. By 2103 any surviving Kennedys will renegotiate the terms of the agreement.
- r146 Diana Vreeland recalled that in the 80's she and Jackie were flying back from China and the had a short change of flights in SFO , it was Halloween.They were both punchy after a long flight when Vreeland spotted a guy in full Jackie drag. The pink Chanel the pillbox the whole outfit. Vreeland cringed and tried to steer Jackie away from the guy. Jackie spotted him however and stepping up beside him whispered in his ear " I know who you are."
- It's interesting that while the dress is being housed at the National Archives, the hat is missing. The last person to have it was Jackie's assistant, who when asked what happened to it, refused to speak about it.
- I remember she gave an interview where she talked about how beautiful his head was and that she was trying to put it back together.
- r153 Silly,didn't you comprehend what R141 was telling us. The hat is missing because it was bullet proof and that proves Jackie was working for the CIA and offed her husband on orders.She was the Manchurian Candidate 2.0 in a knock off Chanel.
Yes, how could I be so silly.
But the dress wasn't a knock off.
- Interesting about Jackies suit. By 2103 no one will give a shit. It wii be like.."ladies and gentlemen we have the last tampon used by Grace Coolidge in the White House."
- r154 That was the William Manchester interview.Unlike the recently released tapes, Caroline Kennedy has these under wraps until 2133
- I WAS a knock-off, but not from the House of Yes.
- r157 so what cunt.. I bought Grace's tampon on ebay for $12.96..and I use it daily as a conversation starter. Am currently bidding on George W Bush's brain comes with a microscope to view it.
I just wonder what Caroline's reasons are for not wanting it displayed any time soon.
- Bid away, R160 cause his brain is still bigger than your dick.
- Not sure about the reason. After so many years, the stains will look more like dirt than blood. It was in Jackie's mothers attic in a suit box for years. Not te best way to keep historic clothing preserved. I read that her blood soaked stockings have already crumbled to nothing.
- I just watched the zoomed in version of the Zapruder film.
Jackie basically got an up close, direct view, of the inside of her husband's head.
After she saw that, if she had been trying to climb out of the vehicle, who could blame her?
- r162 But still not big enough to fill your stretched out anus dear.
- Some people are just fucking insane.
I saw that too and was about to post how I never realized just how far those with conspiracy theories went.
I had never heard that theory until I saw that video.
- It's a well known fact that Jackie was the 2nd gunman. It was a perfect inside job.
- r166 With the Kennedy assassination ya don't get just plain crazy. Ya get rolling on the floor foaming at the mouth speaking in tongues snake handling batshit crazy. They've been providing us entertainment for 50 years.Here's hoping for 50 more.
- R164, in that closeup it it looked like, after he was shot the second time and his head blew open, she screamed at the carnage, pushed him away, and tried to run to the back of the car.
- "Well known fact"? Please, R169. It is not well known if many of us hadn't heard of it until R166 posted that stupid link, and it's definitely not a fact but a theory, and an idiotic one at that.
- r172 I believe r169 was being facetious.Everyone can see that Mrs Conolly is the one with the gun.Another of JFK's trists seeking revenge. Hell hath no fury like a Texas woman scorned.
- The man who cared most about Jackie was Jack Ruby. To lessen her trauma, he thoughtfully shot Oswald live on TV. Naturally this eased the national tumult.
The gallant act was rewarded with a prison sentence. Cynics claim Ruby had ulterior motives, but he lived on for longer than many involved with Dallas '63.
- [quote]If the Zapruder film had truly implicated Oswald it would not have been locked away out of public view for all those years.
Locked away? LIFE Magazine published photos from the film on the 29th, a week later.
- Ruby was well known mafia figure ,and he was told to kill Oswald to shut him up.
Also, I listened to a radio program around two years ago and this lady who worked in the building ,where Oswald was supposed to be shooting, she claimed none of us who worked there saw him ,and most defiantly someone would have seen him in that building. I think they were discussing Oswald was set up. I think many other things that happened in history was what you saw was what it was, but the JFK assassination is much more complex.The JFK presidency was very complex ,and he stirred up a hornet's nest by pissing off a lot of people.JFK's father got his son elected using his mafia connections ,and then JFK and Bobby went after the mafia once they got elected which infuriated the mafia ,and they took it as a double cross.Sam Giancana said to an FBI agent who was confronting him at an airport, you think your boss president Kennedy is so clean and such a good man don't you?! well I can tell you who he really is because I know the truth! Dorothy McGuire was with Sam Giancana that day at the airport so she must know a lot. She has extreme high security in her home. She pushes a button ,and automatically the windows get covered by special bullet proof covers.
BTW, those of you who don't believe there isn't a conspiracy involved, why would Jackie leave instructions that her tapes discussing who she thinks killed her husband be sealed for many, many years ,and not to be opened up and revealed until that time? If it was just Oswald, there would be no need for such extreme arrangements to be made. This is a factor that this assassination is much more than just one angry man killing the president. It seems like Jackie wanted the tapes to be revealed at a time when everyone who was alive in 1963, to be long dead by the time those tapes are unsealed out of the concern of the safety of her famliy.
Also, I have mentioned in my previous post, Bobby Kennedy's son believes there was more than one shooter, and his father did not believe the Warren Commission Report was accurate. Check out the very interesting article. Also, scroll to the bottom of the article and there is old coverage of a man who was there with his son that day who said there were two shots.
- [quote]Locked away? LIFE Magazine published photos from the film on the 29th, a week later.
Viewing individual frames of the film don't begin to have the same impact as viewing the film. For example, the film shows JFK's head flying back and to the left, indicating a shooter in front of him and to his right.
Besides, LIFE "accidentally" transposed the order of some of the frames to create a different impression than seeing them in correct sequence would provide. I wonder why they were so "careless" with such an important piece of evidence.
- [quote]and most defiantly someone would have seen him in that building
I'm sorry but I can't read anything else that you write.
- Frame 337 of the Zapruder film shows a large defect in the back of JFK's head, with Jackie
staring right at it in horror.
A back of the head exit wound means a shot from the front.
- r179 are we looking at the same film? The film shows JFK mainly in right profile. frames 313-329 show a huge gaping wound above his right ear expending forward to his temple and right top of his head. The back of his head ( what little that can be seen) appears intact.I know, I know, the film was altered by Kodak and Walt Disney who were working for the pope and the mafia.You see what you want to see.Not what is there. The hallmark of delusional thinking.
- Jackie was under control of the ultra-right Catholic group, Deus Ex Machina, as mentioned in the Da Vinci Code. This group of superpowerful monks, or munks, take your pick, were blackmailing Jackie with the possibility of the murders of little John, Caroline, and Caroline's pony, Macaroni.
- R180, here are some color autopsy photos that show a large chunk of the back of JFK's head blown away.
All the doctors who were at Parkland are on record saying that there was a huge hole blown out the upper back right side of his skull. Most of those doctors have been photographed illustrating where the exit wound was by cupping their own right hands to the upper right rear part of their own skulls.
- The site at this link includes photos of the doctors at Parkland describing the head wound they saw.
One of the ER doctors, Dr. Charles A. Crenshaw later wrote a book called JFK: Conspiracy of Silence in which he asserted that JFK had been shot twice from in front of him.
It amazes me that people give more credence to the Single Bullet theory forwarded by lawyer-turned-Senator, Arlen Specter, who was not present at any time or place during the chain of events than they would give to a surgeon like Crenshaw who was one of the first to see Kennedy in the immediate aftermath of the shooting.
- I recommend the book, Nemesis by Peter Evans.The book is considered to be extremely well done and well researched by a very creditable and respected journalist. Apparently the author of this book nailed the truth about Jack and Jackie and Onassis lives. I recommend the book highly! Here is the link to the book on Amazon books.
- THIS JUST IN: The vehicle wasn't "speeding" OP...
- This is the most damning piece of film:
- I'm trying to figure out why anyone would expect Jackie Kennedy to act any different from any other human sitting next to and witnessing her husband's brain being blown out in front of her. It's like some of you posters expect super human capacities of normal humans. Sure. She was from privilege and money...but she was just a human. She was a rabbit in a car cage targeted by assassins. She tried to run when she was prey. Human reaction. Big fucking deal. That's what human beings do. There isn't a human among you that wouldn't do the same. It doesn't make or denegrate her. Be glad in your life you don't have to daily worry about such shit.
- r180 Ollie Stone,
Please take a look at frame 337 of the Zap film.
The hair blowout in the BACK of JFK's head is clearly visible.
JFK was hit twice in the head, nearly simultaneously.
The shot from the rear was at frame 312 causing the flap above the right ear.
The shot from the front caused the damage at frame 337.
Many people in Dealey heard the last two shots extremely close together.
- Years ago after the killing, you could go to the book store in Dallas and for $20 some guy and lady would take you in a convertible similar to the limo the president was killed in. The lady was dressed in pink like Jackie and was pretty drunk, the man drove the caddy convertible.
They'd drive you around and when you got near the spot, the music on the 8 track would switch from music to gunshots and you were supposed to act like the president and the drunk lady in pink would jump up and down and scream.
When the police found out about this, they put an end to it because the guy did not have a license for this kind of "business".
That is both hilarious and disturbing.
- R189's grotesquerie reminded me of a magazine article on kitsch I once saw.
Never forgot the ceramic salt cellar of JFK, with functional holes at the back of his head.
- r187, of course, Jackie was just human, but as has been said REPEATEDLY on this thread, the human instinct would have been to duck for cover and crouch down into the car, not climb out into the open, making oneself a clearer target for the bullets.
That is why there such controversy over what she was attempting to do in those few seconds.
Well, human instinct would either have someone either crouch down for cover or run and flee, which might have been what she was doing.
- There's more than one natural reaction to something like that. Duck and cover, flee, or sit completely frozen, not comprehending or being able to function.
- [quote][R187], of course, Jackie was just human, but as has been said REPEATEDLY on this thread, the human instinct would have been to duck for cover and crouch down into the car, not climb out into the open, making oneself a clearer target for the bullets.
Not if you live your life in the Secret Service bubble.
The first reaction would be to turn to them for safety.
She was diving for cover.
- [quote]Jackie was just human, but as has been said REPEATEDLY on this thread, the human instinct would have been to duck for cover and crouch down into the car, not climb out into the open, making oneself a clearer target for the bullets
Of course, since the bullets were being fired AT the car, one might want to try to get OUT of it.
- [quote]Of course, since the bullets were being fired AT the car, one might want to try to get OUT of it.
Probably a natural reaction to flee when your husband's head has just exploded.
Not only when it's just exploded but probably a natural reaction when you've watched it explode and you're now looking directly into his brain.
- [quote]the human instinct would have been to duck for cover and crouch down into the car, not climb out into the open, making oneself a clearer target for the bullets.
There was a gruesome dead body flopped over the seat. Jackie may have been reacting more to the blood and gore directly beside her than to the peril of bullets flying around her.
Does she actually kick the dying president in the head as she climbs out of the seat?
- R199, you nailed it! I think that is the reason why she was trying to flee.
- Clint Hill was the Secret Service agent who jumped on the rear bumper step of the Lincoln limousine and pushed Jackie back into her seat. He testified that she looked like she was reaching for something coming off the trunk. They did find a piece of JFK's skull in the street later that day. She testified to the Warren Commission she was trying to hold her husband's hair and skull on during the race to hospital.