In The Wizard of Oz, Toto is ordered to be taken to the sherrif and destroyed. He escapes and goes with Dorotyh to Oz.
But at the end she returns home with Toto. I would assume the order for Toto to be destroyed is still in effect.
So was Toto killed?
No, because Elvira Gulch was killed in the tornado.
The name, image and story of TOTO is owned by Warner Brothers and any mention of him here in the DL is illegal. Be warned.
I always thought the term "destroyed" regarding a dog was odd.
No, Toto was adopted by a nice Vietnamese family.
"Destroyed" as a euphemism for euthanized was what I always heard growing up (in Texas). I don't think people say it anymore, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was still kicking in the extremely rural (2+ hrs away from a city) areas.
OP, after Dorothy almost died and the tornado has ripped through the village, I doubt Aunt Em was as willing to give up Toto as she was at the beginning. And r1 might be right about Gulch being killed in the storm.
Why no, of course not OP. We put him in a lovely little carrier one summer and strapped him to the roof of the Mercury to see our Uncle Mitt in Salt Lake City.
He LOVED it.
Wasn't Toto in all the Oz sequel books?
I miss the brains down in Africa
We almost were after that Arquette bitch screwed me over.
Henry and Em complied with the sheriff's orders. They surrendered Toto to Miss Gulch. It's not their fault he jumped out of her basket and ran away. If Miss Gulch returns to the Gale farm they can always say Toto is the "new" dog they got Dorothy to replace the one she took.
After all, the moral is "there's no place like home." Doesn't say anything about not lying.
Miss Gultch was a dyke.
Gulch was a major pussy hound.
Big Coolidge supporter.
[quote]Wasn't Toto in all the Oz sequel books?
He appears or is referred to briefly at the start of OZMA OF OZ, which was the second sequel to THE WONDERFUL WIZARD OF OZ, and the first to feature Dorothy. But he does not accompany Dorothy when she is tossed overboard in a storm at sea. Her animal companion on this journey is a hen named Billina who gains the power of speech once they arrive in the magical Land of Ev.
Here Dorothy is reunited with her old friends from Oz who cross the Deadly Desert on a magic carpet. Toto is in all the other books where Dorothy appears. She is not in all the sequels and I don't think Toto appears in any without her.
Incidentally, OZMA OF OZ is not the story of how Ozma became ruler of Oz. That story is told in the first sequel, THE MARVELOUS LAND OF OZ in which the Scarecrow and Tin Man put down an all-female militant revolution with the aid of a team of ersatz friends. This colorful bunch includes a boy named Tip who is not a boy but the rightful queen of Oz living under a witch's spell. Tip loses his tip as he reluctantly agrees to be transformed back into a girl in order to claim the throne. What do you suppose readers made of this in 1904?
The witch was destroyed, thus Miss Gultch never came back.
R13 just reset the gay curve.
""Destroyed" as a euphemism for euthanized"
Other way around, I should think. Euthanized is more of a euphemism for destroyed, no?
Steve Lukather certainly seems bound to destroy Toto and their legacy. Bobby Kimball will always be the voice of Toto to my ears, and Lukather's refusing to have him on the band on equal footing is ridiculous at this point.
[quote]"Destroyed" as a euphemism for euthanized
As euphemisms go, that's about the worst one ever.
r1 beat me to it, but OP, how could you not know that when the Wicked Witch dies in Oz from the house falling on her as a result of the tornado her counterpart dies in Kansas the same way? It's hardly a subtle detail.
Well to be fair to OP, there was no reference to it at all so it wasn't exactly explicit.
Toto was not destroyed. But he was emotionally devastated.
Toto was in the Oz books but there was no Miss Gulch in the first book, Toto was never in danger. That whole subplot was made for the film.
Actually, Auntie Em agreed to eat Miss Gulch's pussy if she would give up her persecution of Toto, and this arrangement satisfied all parties.
[quote]how could you not know that when the Wicked Witch dies in Oz from the house falling on her as a result of the tornado her counterpart dies in Kansas the same way? It's hardly a subtle detail.
Point well taken, R24. I wouldn't have thought of it. And I think practically all the time.
[quote]The witch was destroyed, thus Miss Gultch never came back.
But Oz was a dream. Miss Gultch was real.
Ms. Gultch's dying is by no means a certainty. Posters who say otherwise are misrepresenting the contents of the text.
R27, I do think that by now it's a virtual certainty that she has shuffled off any sort of mortal coil.
Wait a minute, when Dorothy is back in her bedroom coming out of her coma, Toto was there with her. Didn't Auntie Em say something like everyone was so worried about Dorothy pulling through, even Elvira Gulch changed her mind about letting Toto live.
R29, Toto was there with her because he escaped and ran back home. But the sherriff's order for him to be destroyed would still be in effect.
"Didn't Auntie Em say something like everyone was so worried about Dorothy pulling through, even Elvira Gulch changed her mind about letting Toto live."
No r29, there's no mention of Miss Gulch in the final scene.
Someone, maybe Danny Peary in A GUIDE TO THE FILM FANATIC, wrote an essay about how muddled the theme of the movie is, that home is actually a pretty crappy place where her family ignores Dorothy and there is a bounty on her dog's head. In contrast OZ is a beautiful colorful place with magical friends to keep her company, yet she pines to go home.
I always thought part of going home was that she's becoming a woman, and she can fuck Hunk or Hickory. There's no fucking a man made of straw or a man made of tin--neither of them have genitalia.
[quote]Posters who say otherwise are misrepresenting the contents of the text.
OMG they were already texting back then?
R34 is clearly in possession of the lost verses of "If I Only Had a Brain."
The book implies that at least two of the field hands touched Dorothy *down there* while she was passed out on the bed.
The movie was a lot more subtle, allowing the viewer to draw his own conclusion.
In the stage version's final scene, Uncle Henry tells Dorothy that the tornado caused a telephone pole to fall on Miss Gulch. I assume that meant she died.
The dog actor who played Toto was named Terry in real life.
R39 Terry died penniless, a lonely alcoholic.
IIRC in one of the early drafts of the screenplay, Miss Gulch had an evil nephew who appears in Oz as one of the witch's henchmen. It is revealed at the end that both are killed by the tornado.
Terry's owner changed the dog's name to Toto after the movie (yes, Toto was a bitch in real life).
I think we can safely assume that once the tornado devastated the small Kansas farming community in which they lived, Almira Gulch had more important things on her mind than destroying Dorothy's dog. If Miss Gulch survived the twister at all, that is.
[quote] Danny Peary in A GUIDE TO THE FILM FANATIC, wrote an essay about how muddled the theme of the movie is, that home is actually a pretty crappy place where her family ignores Dorothy and there is a bounty on her dog's head. In contrast OZ is a beautiful colorful place with magical friends to keep her company, yet she pines to go home.
Malarkey. The theme is hardly muddled. In the film:
Home, though it seems colorless and dull, is still a place of safety, security, and love while the outside world, though it may seem colorful and beautiful, can be dangerous, frightening and isolating. We venture into the outside world and as beautiful and exciting as it may seem, we often end up longing to be back among those we know and love. It's a simple theme that's universal and timeless, perfectly illustrated in the film.
If the theme were 'muddled,' the film would not be an enduring classic.
It doesn't really say that the outside world can be isolating, r44 - she meets three hugely loyal, loving friends there.
[quote] It doesn't really say that the outside world can be isolating, [R44] - she meets three hugely loyal, loving friends there.
Right, and once the witch is dead, Oz looks like it could be a pretty great place to be, with terrific friends to be your new family, much like many gays who leave horrendous home lives and find new families.
I think there were other books in the Oz canon besides Ozma of Oz that mention Toto, but I can't reference the exact title. I remember him being able to talk, and having a snarky relationship with The Glass Cat and The Pink Kitten.
In movie-land, I would assume that Dorothy's ill health might inspire some leniency with the sheriff. If Uncle Henry had insurance on the homestead, maybe he could afford a fence of some sort.
During the tornado scene when Miss Gultch is seen riding her bike in the center of the twister she transforms into the Wicked Witch Of The East...not West.
So when the house falls on her and kills her, you could assume that Miss Gultch WAS killed during the twister with a house falling on her.
So she and her doppelgänger turned out to be the ones who got destroyed in Oz and Kansas.
R46 Oz as depicted in the books was much more dangerous and random and absurd. Much like the gay community at times. It was a mixed basket, but most definitely more interesting than the "real world" or what one may define as heteronormativity.
"During the tornado scene when Miss Gultch is seen riding her bike in the center of the twister she transforms into the Wicked Witch Of The East...not West.
So when the house falls on her and kills her, you could assume that Miss Gultch WAS killed during the twister with a house falling on her."
I don't understand the logical leap you're making here. At that point in the tornado scene, Dorothy has already been hit on the head and passed out - what she then dreams/hallucinates doesn't have any bearing on what is happening to the real people in Kansas.
[quote] I remember him being able to talk, and having a snarky relationship with The Glass Cat and The Pink Kitten.
Was L Frank Baum family? Because the Oz books really are the gayest things ever.
"Ozma of Oz," "The Emerald City of Oz" and "The Patchwork Girl of Oz" are my favorites.
In fact, I think most of the books in the series are better than the first two.
[quote] During the tornado scene when Miss Gultch is seen riding her bike in the center of the twister she transforms into the Wicked Witch Of The East...not West.
How can one tell? This is interesting.
Listen to the commentary track on the blu-ray.
I forget the name of the person who does it, but he's an OZ historian of some sort and that's where I heard it. With all the attention they put to the OZ license, I doubt they'd allow misinformation to be on a commentary track.
If you break it down to the basics, the Wizard Of Oz is basically about 2 women fighting over a pair of shoes.
It's "'stroyed," OP.
[quote]Oz looks like it could be a pretty great place to be
Yes, with the psychedelic midgets, the surly talking trees that throw apples, the forests full of wild creatures, the deadly poppy fields, the feckless fascists at the capital, the squadron of flying monkeys, and the armed guards of a wicked witch who wants you dead what's not to love?
In the original book, the whole Wicked Witch subplot takes up a chapter.
[quote] In the original book, the whole Wicked Witch subplot takes up a chapter.
Right. This is one of the examples I give to people who complain when movies don't follow the exact blueprint of the book. I wonder what MGM in 1939 would've done with the Hunger Games or Harry Potter?
[quote] Listen to the commentary track on the blu-ray.
I don't have a blu-ray player.
"home is actually a pretty crappy place where her family ignores Dorothy and there is a bounty on her dog's head. In contrast OZ is a beautiful colorful place with magical friends to keep her company, yet she pines to go home."
If home was bad before the tornado, imagine living on a scratch farm after a tornado had torn through the place! She was ignored before the tornado, but afterwards her family would be scrabbling for survival, they'd put her to 20-hour days of rebuilding the barn as soon as she could stand.
And Miss Gulch was in the shelterless middle of nowhere on a bicycle, when a tornado hit. Her odds of escaping unscathed weren't good.
Gulch had plenty of distance from the tornado.
And it's ridiculous to say that was Almira Gulch in the tornado. I'f we believe that, then we must also believe that was Aunt Em in her rocking chair waving at Dorothy.
Have the blu ray but havne't played it.. would the commentary be by John Fricke?
What about Prof. Marvel's horse?
Well, that's the horse of a different color you've heard tell of.
The other Oz books are the most bizarre whimsical stories ever. Picture this strange world of creatures made of every material (china, glass, metal, rags, brass, rainbows) and girls in swirls of Art Noveau robes and jewelry and talking animals. Odd indeed.
But no blacks though. I wonder if Baum was a racist?
There weren't any blacks in that part of the world until the teens.
[quote]But no blacks though. I wonder if Baum was a racist?
You've forgotten "Angela Davis in Oz," where Dorothy meets the titular character and becomes a soul sister. They make bean pies for Elijah Muhammad, and Ozma gets a giant afro and wears a dashiki.
"But no blacks though. I wonder if Baum was a racist?"
Everyone was, in 1900, including book publishers. If, by any chance, Baum had decided to include some human and sympathetic black characters, instead of the usual stereotypes, any publisher of the day would have edited it out because the book wouldn't sell in the South.
Sadly, R71 is correct.
If you REALLY want to obsess over Toto from the Wizard of Oz, these are the facts from the movie:
Elvira Gulch wanted to take Toto to the Sheriff to be destroyed (apparently she'd gotten permission from the law to do so). Uncle Henry suggests a compromise; they'd keep him tied up so he wouldn't venture onto Elvira's property. She says "that's for the Sheriff to decide" and takes him away. Toto escapes from her basket and runs back to Dorothy.
At the end of the movie the situation is the same it would seem; Toto would be taken away and the Sheriff would decide his fate. There was nothing in the movie to suggest that Elvira Gulch had gotten killed during the tornado.
So, R73, it's very possible that after the tornado, Almira Gulch followed through on the Toto issue, and quite possibly, Toto was destroyed.
[quote]It doesn't really say that the outside world can be isolating,
Dorothy is on her own after she lands in Oz: Think of it from a child's perspective. That segment of a fairytale--Hansel and Gretel alone in the woods, longing to find their way back--doesn't last long but it looms large.
I don't believe Mr. Baum had an editor in the usual sense.
"During the tornado scene when Miss Gultch is seen riding her bike in the center of the twister she transforms into the Wicked Witch Of The East...not West."
Never heard that theory before!
[quote]Never heard that theory before!
Yes and the rest of the story is that she eventually goes to The Bellagio and ducks into the ladies room where she encountered the Wicked witch of the West who put some kind of curse on the shoes in the ladies room
R77, Dorothy refers to it as an eyewitness in the Munchkin song when she sings, "It really was no miracle, what happened was just this: The wind began to switch - the house to pitch and suddenly the hinges started to unhitch. Just then the Witch - to satisfy an itch went flying on her broomstick, thumbing for a hitch." That's the witch she saw and that's the one her house landed on.
It seems the writers wanted us to believe that the witch Dorothy saw in the tornado was the witch of the East, because while she is clearly played by Margret Hamilton, they throw in a line where the Wicked Witch of the West says "Who killed my sister?" as if to explain the perfect resemblance of one witch to the other.
"Dorothy refers to it as an eyewitness in the Munchkin song when she sings, "It really was no miracle, what happened was just this: The wind began to switch - the house to pitch and suddenly the hinges started to unhitch. Just then the Witch - to satisfy an itch went flying on her broomstick, thumbing for a hitch." That's the witch she saw and that's the one her house landed on."
Dorothy's statement doesn't necessarily mean anything - at that point she thinks there was only one wicked witch in Oz (remember, when the Wicked Witch of the West shows up, she says, "I thought you said she was dead!") She assumed that the witch she saw in the sky was the one she killed, but that doesn't mean her assumption was correct.
And if we're to buy that what Dorothy saw in the tornado was real, that means Auntie Em was also in the tornado knitting.
"Destroyed" is a better word than "sacrificed". In labs when a subject is needed to be put down for one reason or another, they use the term "sacrifice".
I have seen this movie probably 40 times and now I am very confused. My gut tells me the filmmakers didn't put as much thought into the East Witch vs West Witch as we are here.
Can you see her shoes? Is she wearing the ruby slippers?
Okay, I just watched the scene.
She is NOT wearing the slippers so it is not the WWotE. She's wearing the same shoes as the WWotW.
How can there be any question that she is the witch of the West?
She's played by the same fucking actress.
Thank you R85. The guy quoting the bluray commentator is getting me all confused!
I have an emerald-ray player
Agreed. I REALLY don't believe we're supposed to think that the Witch Dorothy sees flying past her window in the cyclone is supposed to be the Wicked Witch of the East.
It is supposed to be the Wicked Witch of the East (not of the West) who flies past Dorothy in the tornado. You can see she's wearing the ruby slippers (but it doesn't pick up well in the sepia-toned footage), plus her hair is loose and visible (the WW of the W never wears her hair exposed).
Here's a photo of the WW of the E flying past Dorothy's window in the cyclone.
Those are NOT the slippers. You can clearly see the shoes.
But using your logic, how did Aunt Em get out and why is she knitting?
From Margaret Hamilton's wikipedia page:
[quote]Hamilton played three roles in the famous film: Almira Gulch, the Wicked Witch of the West, and the Wicked Witch of the East. (Although Hamilton was never officially credited for this third role, the Witch that she played in the tornado sequence is undoubtedly the Witch of the East: she is wearing the Ruby Slippers.)
Toto was devastated when legal conflicts prevented them from recording "Danger Zone" for the Top Gun soundtrack. They also wrote and intended to perform a track called "Only You" that would have been used as the love theme instead of "Take My Breath Away", but nooo.
I've always thought Hamilton is supposed to be the Wicked Witch of the West when she flies by the window during the cyclone, and she looks a little different there only because the look of that character changed quite a bit as the production progressed.
Now, y'all have made me think MAYBE she is supposed to be the Wicked Witch of the East in that sequence, but if so, it's confusing to have her played by the same actress. If Glinda or the Witch of the West had had a line about about them being twins, that would have made it clearer.
P.S. When I was a little kid, I thought the woman who flies by the window in the rocking chair, knitting, was supposed be Aunt Em, but it really doesn't look like her. I think it's just supposed to be a fanciful image of some random neighbor woman.
Serious question: If Miss Gulch owns half the county, couldn't she afford a car?
You remember Huck says, if you used your brain you'd tie him up and he'd not get in trouble.
And Dorothy says, "You S&M queen."
This is really fun - Margaret Hamilton on "Mr. Rogers", helping scared kids understand that the Wicked Witch was just pretend:
[quote]Serious question: If Miss Gulch owns half the county, couldn't she afford a car?
Have you ever been to Kansas? You can tell she owns the better half of the county because she can afford a bike.
[quote]When the Wicked Witch of the West shows up, Dorothy says, "I thought you said she was dead!" She assumed that the witch she saw in the sky was the one she killed, but that doesn't mean her assumption was correct.
OMG. Sometimes I just effin' LOVE this site.
It was the depression morons.
[quote]Now, y'all have made me think MAYBE she is supposed to be the Wicked Witch of the East in that sequence
If the witch flying by the window is the Wicked Witch of the West and not the Wicked Witch of the East, then why would she be wearing shiny shoes?
She's not wearing shiny shoes. They look like dark boots with a heel.
Thanks so much for posting that clip, R84. It brought back such memories. When I was very young, we didn't have color TV so I had only seen it in B&W. I had always wanted to see it in color because I had seen the color stills and thought it looked so glorious.
When we finally got a color TV and they showed TWOO, I was so excited to finally see it in color. I was heartbroken when I saw that it was in B&W, but watched it anyway. OMG I was screaming for joy when that door opens up and Oz is in amazing, lovely color. It was like a dream come true. I have loved that movie since I was a kid.
I meant Thanks R85.
It wasn't the Depression. The film appears to be set in the era when the book was written, circa 1900 judging from the farm equipment and the mode of dress.
"She assumed that the witch she saw in the sky was the one she killed."
I can't believe we're spending so much time on this, but what the hell:
Why would she assume that the witch she saw in the sky was the one she killed? We are told that the house fell on the Wicked Witch of the East, which certainly implies that the witch was standing there on the ground when the was hit by the house. So are we supposed to assume that the witch Dorothy saw in the sky landed just before she did?
Also: What Dorothy sees when she's up in the cyclone is an image of Miss Gulch on her bicycle TURNING INTO the image of a witch on a broom, so I don't believe we or Dorothy are supposed to think that witch is any PARTICULAR witch. See what I mean?
The DL needs to get it's act together. First the clip is at R84, then, when I see my post it is at R85. Now, it appears to be back at R84. I feel like I'm in Oz.
You're just ready to fly right on outta here aren't you?
"When we finally got a color TV and they showed TWOO, I was so excited to finally see it in color. I was heartbroken when I saw that it was in B&W, but watched it anyway. OMG I was screaming for joy when that door opens up and Oz is in amazing, lovely color."
Umm, didn't your parents explain to you ahead of time that the first part of the movie is in black and white (or sepia)? Mine did! And anyway, I believe this was explained on air by whoever "hosted" the telecasts of the movie for the first 10 years or so.
I never thought that the woman in the rocking chair was Aunt Em. I always thought it was a neighbor.
[quote] Also: What Dorothy sees when she's up in the cyclone is an image of Miss Gulch on her bicycle TURNING INTO the image of a witch on a broom, so I don't believe we or Dorothy are supposed to think that witch is any PARTICULAR witch. See what I mean?
Yes, but was Ms. Gulch wearing the ruby slippers?
I've posted this before.. the first time I saw the movie, which must have been the very first broadcast, my mom walked thru the room and took a look at the TV, she turned to my dad and said "well.. this was made before Judy got so fat and kept slitting her wrists."
The witch in the cyclone clip has shiny shoes than looks like the ruby slippers, and I've heard them say that one of the many extant pairs of ruby slippers around today are the ones Margaret Hamilton wore.
Plus Margaret Hamilton's hair in the cyclone is loose rather than done up.
The witch in the cyclone is the WW of the East.
Weren't the initial TV broadcasts a little underwhelming due to the prevalence of b&w TVs?
I love that clip, R98!
She was a kindergarten teacher, you know.
"You can talk this way, everybody can!"
I loved "Hold The Line", but I think the follow up single "Georgie Porgie" sunk them forever. The partially recovered with "Rosanna" and "africa", but it was never the same again.
Top 40 Smartass
It was a historical epic based on the era before cars...and airplanes.
Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
There's nothing that a hundred men or more could ever do
I bless the rains down in Africa
[quote]Weren't the initial TV broadcasts a little underwhelming due to the prevalence of b&w TVs?
R115- Not really. Most families did not have color sets in the 50's. So b&w was all we were use to. However, I was pretty excited one year when I did get to see OZ broadcast in color.
Toto was pretty ugly. More rat than dog.
The sequence is all a hallucination. The two farm-hands are rowing a boat even though we know they were in the storm cellar. We know from the original book that Uncle Henry's homestead was in the middle of a sun-scorched prairie so there wouldn't be the need for a rowboat.
Miss Gulch turning into a witch was just a reflection of Dorothy and Aunt Em's fear and hatred of her. The witch pictured here is a typical Halloween witch with flowing robes and wind-swept hair. That wouldn't have filmed well in standing sequences, which makes me think all the more it is just a vision.
It IS possible though that even a seasoned broomstick flyer might be caught by surprise by a large spinning house, and not be able to steer her flight pattern far away enough to avoid an accident.
[quote]The two farm-hands are rowing a boat even though we know they were in the storm cellar. We know from the original book that Uncle Henry's homestead was in the middle of a sun-scorched prairie so there wouldn't be the need for a rowboat.
The boaters were picked up by the twister before it hit Dorothy's house/farm. As were the cow, chicken coop and old lady knitting - non-scary things that one would expect to find in Kansas that could get caught in a twister, making the appearance of Gulch turning into the witch that much more frightening.
Aren't those two guys farmhands at Uncle Henry's farm? We clearly saw them go into the cellar, and the area of the farm was supposed to be a dry, desolate prairie. Isn't the knitting woman Aunt Em?
That is a truly lovely clip at r98.
Miss Gulch was cranky due to a nasty yeast infection she caught by all the finger banging she did with dirty fingers. It's the same yeast infection that killed the Pillsbury dough boy.
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