I've never had an interest in Star Trek before (never seen one of the movies or an episode of any of the different series), but recently I started sleeping with a guy who's a big fan of the TV shows. He strongly urged me to start watching and told me I'd be sure to love it if I gave it a chance.
I'm not much of a sci-fi guy, but I thought the X-Files was awesome and like the original three Star Wars movies, plus this guy is really cute so why not?
Well I started watching The Next Generation (Patrick Stewart is genuinely great actor, so it gave me hope that he was in this) and I can't believe how bad it is AND how much I'm liking it.
I've only seen a handful of episodes, but it's a total campfest. Everything is super 80s and it's hard to tell if the acting or writing is worse most of the time. The special effects are embarrassing too. Still I'm having some fun with it and assume it gets better?
So what does the ever-opinionated DL think about Star Trek, especially the TV series? No spoilers please, but are there gay characters? Do the storylines and the caliber of acting improve? Does Star Trek even have a lot of gay fans? None of my friends watch or know anyone who does.
[quote]Everything is super 80s
What do you mean by this exactly?
R1 The women in particular look like they walked off the set of Dynasty, minus the designer outfits. The hair is big and frizzy, the makeup is 80s, and the shoulder pads are huge!
I know it was filmed in '87, and I'm impressed that most of the instruments on the ship are touchscreen, but some of the fashions are hopelessly not futuristic. The guest stars get the worst brunt of the bad fashion.
OP I could have you EJECTED into SPACE!
OP, I hear you. I think Star Trek falls into that category of 'I watched this when I was young and had no critical faculties, therefore I love it unconditionally'. I'm like that with Star Wars - I can recognise that it's very flawed but it's still fun. Star Trek, though, just seems heavy and over the top. There are supposedly quite a few gay fans, for what it's worth.
The original series from the 60s is even worse (or better, depending on how you look at it!).
Do the plotlines begin to stretch out over multiple episodes or is does episode have a self-contained story?
The only character I'm really hating with a passion right now is the boy Wesley. He is a bad actor and the character is super annoying. Plus he insists on wearing Bill Cosby sweaters in every episode! Now they've made him an officer?
Are the other series (Deep Space Nine, Voyager, Enterprise) different from Next Generation? My fuck buddy says he loves them all, ha.
DS9, while more difficult to get into, begins story-arc type episodes which makes it more engaging (no pun!). Not sure which season this begins in. I, too, was the victim of a BF fan of the show and while I liked the next gen for Stewart, most episodes are stand alone and forgettable (I started enjoying the show around season 4 or 5). I didn't expect to like DS9 at all and ended up having that be my fave.
Voyage, on the other hand, I really wanted to like. The season AFTER they introduce 7 of 9 and give geri Ryan more bits is when Voyager becomes good and more arc related.
Avery Brooks is a TERRIBLE actor. There's nary a scene in DS9 that he didn't chew.
He hasn't worked in anything since that series ended.
The movies and TV series (plural) suck.
The trick with next generation is to get past the first season. The actors and stories got so much better once they became comfortable in the roles
Wesley. Forget about it. Boring though thankfully moves to occasional role later.
I loved enterprise. Most hot men in tight underwear of all series. Also I enjoyed the story arc about the xindi.
I desperately wanted a Lt. Uhura action figure as a child.
I agree with R10. The first season has Rodenberry all over it. Once he stepped back you will sea a vast improvement in season 2 and beyond.
It really is a very good show outside of season 1.
Thanks R10 and R12. I like Stewart and am intrigued enough to stick it out till season 2 and make up my mind then.
I think TNG becomes better starting season 3 and takes off season 4. But you see improvement in season 2 already when they change the look and costumes a lot. Always liked Diana Muldaur as Dr. Pulaski. I'm only one of few but I thought she added much needed edge to the show.
DS9 was my favorite too. The characters are a lot more interesting, so not everything depends on the Sisko character. Season 1 still tried to figure things out, but season 2 had a lot of interesting story archs already. The show changed directions in season 3 when de-emphasizing on religion. The religion angle didn't bother me, but a lot of people didn't care for it. The show became all war and politics starting season 3, with very compelling character driven stories.
Expect a "punch and delete" from your boyfriend if you do not take his love for Star Trek seriously.
I never got into the newer versions but still watch the original series.
OP, the first season of TNG was horrible. The second season wasn't much better (some would argue worse).
But it comes into its own with the third season, and gets a lot better from there on out.
It's a sort of "stay with it" thing.
Wesley disappears at some point in the series run.
The other shows... DS9 has continuing plot arcs in a way none of the other series did. It was a rough first season or two (like TNG) but I understood it got a lot better. I dunno, I bailed after season two.
Enterprise was, imho, horrid.
Voyage was, imho, bad. I watched three seasons and can't recommend any of it.
But TNG was pretty good and had some really good episodes, once you got past the first two seasons and Wesley Crusher.
I really love the original show. Yes, there are some real stinkers in there, but over-all the show is amazing especially given its time. "City on the Edge of Forever" is masterful sci-fi story-telling.
I do recommend the original show to gay geeks.
As the show went on, it became increasingly obvious that Spock was in love with Capt. Kirk, and didn't know how to handle his feelings.
That's funny R19 and R20. My fuck bud said the original show is his least favorite of five series.
Judging from what I know of him though, I don't think he has much affinity for camp. He actually watches because of loves the characters and stories. Sees all the "philosophical" stuff in them. (So far I've found the morals of the stories to be extremely heavy-handed myself)
I've always been a Trekker.
ST: TOS = Fun, excitement, adventure
ST: TNG = Taking what you hav learned in life and making the best of it, not just for you, but for all around you.
ST: DS9 = Careful where you tread when you think you're grown enough to go it alone.
ST: VOY = ST: TOS Reboot with combinations to all previous series.
ST: ENT = Ok, we're too heavy handed with the other shows, let's take it back a bit...but still make it the same, only with more bulges from the men and women.
I love the ST canon. It really is amazing to see a cultural phenomena of its caliber. I'm starting over, in chronological sequence, and watching them all.
OP, may you enjoy them, but, if you don't, please be honest with your partner and let him continue to enjoy them as his guilty pleasure. Or allow him to enjoy them as a quirky thing in your eyes, and smile when he's wrapped up in an episode he's seen multiple times.
TNG = Great television from season 3 on... Troi is the best and most fun character. "Face of the Enemy" is the ultimate in great camp and one-liners. Data will annoy the fuck out of you.
DS9 = THE best Trek show (aside from TOS). Character development, everyone is given equal time to shine (unlike TNG), really suspenseful in later episodes, top notch guest stars.
VOY = Touch and go. When it was good, it was REALLY good ("Year of Hell"). When it was bad...well it was pure shit (that Flotter episode with Neelix & Naomi Wildman). Campy but not at all fun camp (7 of 9 wrestles The Rock???). The Doctor is the new Data! If you catch my drift.
ENT = Completely unwatchable.
[quote]Wil Wheaton @wilw It's me and my space mom, @gates_mcfadden!
Dr. Crusher still looks good.
I cannot recommend ENT either; there was so much done wrong right from the start. For a StarTrek captain I found Scott Bakula to be a big snooze. However, in my opinion the last, fourth, season was outstanding. Handing the show over to Manny Cotto made a huge difference. And cutting the budget forced them to do multi-episode stories that had quite some depth. They had some of the best Star Trek episodes of the whole franchise in that season. Of course with that series finale they also had the worst episode. So stop watching right before the end.
Avery Brooks was good as Sisko.
OP, Star Trek The Next Generation usually sincerely tried to carry Roddenberry's themes of universal peace and mutual understanding forward. Meaning that it was creepily moralistic and embarrassingly earnest. Yes, the effects are outdated, some of the acting is inept, and much of the scripting is trite.
And yet Stewart and Frakes usually were quite good and had the gravitas to hold the other members of the cast together. Burton also was not bad at all. I like Gates McFadden, too; at least she acted like she was capable of a sex life, even if her range was limited. And any time The Widow Roddenberry (Majel Barrett) was on for her campfest, you got a sense that intentional silliness was a big part of the proceedings.
And Deanna Troi's cameltoe!
Hang in there. Some of the episodes actually are thought-provoking and interesting. Some. Wesley leaves, there is some relationship friction, and occasionally Data is not a complete irritant.
I really like the series closer ("All Good Things").
And when you get to "The Inner Light," the Borg episodes, "Yesterday's Enterprise," some of the Holodeck pieces - there's a lot of quality. "The Inner Light" even won a Hugo Award.
OP, R22 is a genuine Trekker and so am I. If you're not, you will know it, so don't bother trying.
I remember 45-46 years ago, television room in the dorm was jammed with early geeks, and even the real crapfests were "awesome" every week.
"Brain and brain, what is brain?"
When TOS was good, it was very very good, and when it was bad it was a screaming campfest!
Four-Hundred Quatloos on the new-comer!!
R22 - excellent summary
We must drink. This is tranya. I hope you relish it as much as I.
I always loved the original series the best. I hear a lot of people who prefer The Next Generation call the original series "Cheesy" or "Campy." Only a handful of episodes of the original show were cheesy or campy. Most were brilliant. I think it holds up very well. Especially on the blu-rays with the re-created CGI special effects.
The Next Generation was also awesome. After the second season, anyway. The first two seasons were mostly dreadful.
Deep Space Nine and Voyager each had a few magical moments, but they were a notch or two below the first two series.
Enterprise totally shit the bed. Horrid. I knew when I heard that corn-ball themesong that it was doomed.
Tribble up my ass
The thing sabout "Face of the Enemy" that was so great was that on one hand it was the campiest episode of all STAR TREK: TNG, but on another level it's a genuinely great episode. It's very exciting and suspenseful, and the wonderful Carolyn Seymour (who also gave probably the best supporting performance ever in a TNG stand-alone episode, "First Contact") is excellent as the conflicted Romulan commander.
So it's genuinely worth watching even beyond the fact it gave us such unforgettably cheesy lines as "THIS gives me the authority!" (accompanied by karate-chop-like pointing gesture to collar insignia) and "I've tasted better viirine on prison ships!"
Thanks, R28 and R31. I wish I knew some other real Trekkers in life, but most people give "that look" when it's first mentioned. Doesn't bother me at all though; I just smile and point out all the things they use in their lives that were based upon Gene's vision of the future. That look goes away, and they really seem to understand it more.
BTW, have you seen the documentary his son made about being the son of GR and MBR? If not, I think you might like it. His interview with George Lucas was a great addition.
I remember my philosophy 101 class professor spent some time on ST being created out of Plato's theories. It was interesting stuff.
There was an episode called Plato's Stepchildren
OP here. I'm still watching and over halfway through the first season of TNG now. I find it oddly addictive and can't wait to put on the next episode. I'm a pretty stick-with-it type guy, and love long term things like making my way through the whole canon of a long running franchise.
Thanks for all the great responses.
Hey, OP, how's your Star TREK going?
I like the original series best because its so cheesy. The sets, especially when they beam down to some alien planet are so low-rent, its hysterical. But it also sort of forces you to use your imagination and "fill in the blanks" if you will. TNG is too slick, too over produced. And I'm with R4. I LOVE Star Wars, but yes, it is flawed, especially with the dialogue. Its sort of hard for me to watch it with a straight face sometimes. How many times do we hear Han say, "I have a bad feeling about this"? Why does Carrie Fisher's accent alternate between American English and British English? Why do they use Earth based units to measure time and distance?
[quote]The only character I'm really hating with a passion right now is the boy Wesley.
You are far from alone. I still remember when it first aired 25 (!!) years ago; I was in high school then, and all of my friends (who all watched the show - yes, we were nerds) DESPISED Wesley. The basic thinking was (and still is) that he hasn't "earned" a spot on the vaunted Enterprise, unlike young (but not *that* young) Jim Kirk, the brilliant captain given the helm before the age of 30, a first for Starfleet. The producers took the hint and finally ousted him after season 3 or so.
Agreed with everyone else that the first season sucked and the computer FX look horribly, horribly dated now (unlike, say, "Star Wars," which was thankfully made before computer effects existed). I've seen every episode, however, and the only other ST series I've also watched in whole is "Voyager." (And I'm sure this will cause controversy, but I think the "Voyager" finale is the single-best episode in the entire ST television canon.)
I tried watching "Enterprise," but couldn't make it past the first season (and I also had to hit mute whenever the theme song, possibly the worst of all time, came on).
Anyway ... yes, the storylines get better, particularly once the Borg arrive. (The Borg are also featured in the only good TNG-based film, "Star Trek: First Contact.") No, there are no gays in the ST world (OBVIOUSLY excluding TOS Sulu!); the closest they came was on one TNG episode where they had some sort of "omnisexual" creature. As far as the films go: II is the best, but at the same time had the most controversial ending in cinematic history, requiring literally the entire next film to repair. IV somehow manages to be amazing even though virtually all of it takes place in modern-day (1980s, that is) San Francisco. Skip ahead to "First Contact" and then to the recent reboot otherwise.
Program complete. You may enter when ready.
Is anyone in touch with the fandom, and fan-fiction trends? If so, has the fandom decided that Sulu (the character) is gay, and have they given him a romantic life?
OP here. I'm almost done with the first season of TNG. It's a lot more fun than I thought it would be and I'm starting to get attached to the characters. I'm excited to get through the rest of this season and start seeing the episodes where everyone says it gets good.
If possible I'm going to try to get through all the different series. My fuck bud loves talking to me about it too, ha.
If you get through the series and feel you are interested in a gay character, there is "Star Trek: Odyssey" on youtube. It's a fanfilm, but not THAT bad. Yes, the dialogue is cheesy, and it's primarily shot with green screen, but for a low budget, and all things considered, I think it's a pretty good beginning.
The married gay character ultimately becomes the commanding officer of the ship.
OP again and I just finished "Deja Q" (Season 3, Episode 13) and I really loved it. Season 2 was better, but the quality has markedly increased in Season 3.
I've grown very attached to the characters and am having a lot of fun watching this. I can't wait to see what happens next!
All episodes with Q (except for the one that introduced the Borg) were uniformly awful--John de Lancie was the nelliest annoying queen ever. Other than that (and the awful time travel shows--always the bane of star trek in all its incarnations), the show was mostly excellent by the third season, and the characters may not have been deep ones but they were fun and familiar.
R48 I'm with you. I never understood the appeal of Q. That character was awful. I remember all of my co-workers back in the day would be so excited that Q was going to be back in the next new episode. I hated his character. Total camp. I thought he ruined the "Encounter at Farpoint" episode.
It was sort of amusing that San Francisco is the capital of the Federation. Confusing that no gay men seem to have survived there into the 24th century.
I didn't mind Q. The masterbatory episodes designed to show Brent Spiner's acting "talent" (usually in the Holodeck) grate on me the most.
TNG did have a very 80s feel to it. Very post Cold War, hopeful and utopian. You wouldn't have a counsellor on the main bridge in any other decade.
I might have to give DS9 another go. At the time I didn't like how they didn't move around on a starship exploring new planets etc.
Star Trek (Original Series) *****
Original Cast Movies ***** (Except for the 5th one)
Star Trek - The Next Generation *****
Next Generation Movies (except the awesome First Contact) **
Deep Space Nine ***
JJ Abrams New Star Trek Movies ****
I LOVED the original series. It's even better now with the re-mastered special effects. Shatner, Nimoy, Kelley, etc. rock hard!
Where No Man Has Gone Before (1966)
The Menagerie (1966)
The Naked Time (1966)
Balance Of Terror (1967)
This Side of Paradise (1967)
City On The Edge Of Forever (1967)
Amok Time (1967)
The Doomsday Machine (1967)
The Trouble With Tribbles (1967)
Journey To Babel (1967)
The Enterprise Incident (1968)
Those are my favorites.
I love the Original Series and Next Generation equally. As for the rest, forget 'em.
I loved the original casts movies, especially "Wrath of Khan", "Search For Spock", "Voyage Home" and "Undiscovered Country".
The Next Generation cast was better served by the TV Show than by the big-screen movies. "First Contact" was great but "Generations", "Insurrection" and "Nemesis" were shit.
I don't care for Abrams' movies.
As a young boy in the '70s, I had a massive crush on Shatner (as Kirk) and Nimoy (as Spock). Yum. I never missed an episode Star Trek's '70s syndication years.
I just never could watch the old Star Trek. Lorne Green got on my last nerve and I hated him on that show. He was even worse on Bonanza and those awful dog food commercials. Dirk Benedict (I think that was his name) was cute tho.
I liked watching the '60s show because as a kid because I could always see Shatner's willy and balls through his tight black pants. He had a great ass too. His shirtless scenes were almost too much for a young gay-ling to bear.
now he's old but patrick stewart still makes my cock hard - major stud.
I never got into ST until I saw Abram's movie in 2009. I was born in '95 and was a Star Wars guy. I loved ST'09 and on Netflix I have watched all of the Shatner Star Treks (the best), all of the Next Generations, all of Deep Space Nines, 3/4 of Voyagers and I still have to watch Enterprise when I finish Voyager. I am now more of a ST fan than a SW fan. The best of the movies, to me, are The Wrath of Khan, Undiscovered Country, First Contact, ST '09, and Into Darkness. I am a major league Trekker now.
I would Pon-Farr with Spock any day of the week. Nimoy or Quinto, either way.
Many fans hated the first big screen outing, 'Star Trek-The Motion Picture', but I loved it. I still do. I was 14 in '79 when it came out and it was so epic. The effects were astonishing (even by today's standards) and the music was amazing. It was a little slow but I loved every minute of the ride. My brothers and I (two of us gay and two straight) are all life-long Star Trek fans.
Watch the TNG ep. "The Outcast." The episode is a perfect metaphor for homosexuality and condemns homophobia.
One thing all the Star Trek series had in common is that their best, most intellectually challenging episodes are the ones where they present an extremely ambivalent moral dilemma - both choices seem right and wrong at the same time. And even after it's over I'm not sure if I agree with the solution, but I do understand the reasoning behind it.
See, those are the types of episodes that assume I, the viewer, am intelligent enough to examine my own ethics and weigh and pros and cons of the episode's conflict. That's why I like it when Star Trek morally challenges me.
Boring and for fanboys or 15 year old boys with no friends.
I have tried and tried to watch these shows.
Cannot sit through them. Almost universally bad acting. 60s show looks so so so cheap. Always wondered if it is so wonderful for all mankind, where are the gay characters?
BTW Stewart is VERY unpleasant in person to fans and will not give you the time of day on the street. Personal experience in NY.
Is that queen who trashed people who don't like sci-fi posting here? He's got his work cut out for him.
Why all the hate for Enterprise? I really liked it. Bakula was nice eye candy... but, OMG Connor Trineer (Trip) is just about my ideal man. I've watched a lot of the behind-the-scenes stuff on youtube and elsewhere, and remember one in which he talked about the rubdown scene with Jolene Blalock (T'Pol) in the first season and how he couldn't keep from getting hard. They had to re-shoot the scene like 5 times to shoot around the bulge. I wish I could find that clip, but it seems to have disappeared.
And then there was the episode where Archer and Trip go to some planet and end up playing a team game shirtless...
Yeah, I'm a geek.
"Voyager" was a wasted opportunity. Great setup, some interesting characters including a terrific captain, and a weak script every week. It was occasionally very good, and could have been much better than it was.
I watched TOS again after many decades, and was surprised at how much I liked it. And how homoerotic it was, if the show has a central relationship it's the evolving love between Kirk and Spock.
I liked the original series best.
ST:TNG I watched pretty regularly, but looking at reruns of it now I realize how shitty it was. The characters were all a bunch of cold fish; even the empath ship's counselor is wooden and emotionless (Marina Sirtis has all the expressiveness of a block of wood". The most interesting and likable characters are the nonhumans Worf and Data. The show had its fangurl audience, but it was nothing when it came to acting or writing.
Please don't say he was watching a Trek episode while you were sucking his dick.
[quote]I have tried and tried to watch these shows. Cannot sit through them.
You must be extremely stupid.
[quote} One thing all the Star Trek series had in common is that their best, most intellectually challenging episodes are the ones where they present an extremely ambivalent moral dilemma - both choices seem right and wrong at the same time. And even after it's over I'm not sure if I agree with the solution, but I do understand the reasoning behind it.
What would be an example of this?
All I loved the original series, next generation and deep space nine - I'd hardly describe the shows as intellectually challenging.
[quote]What would be an example of this?
One of the best of these was the DS9 episode "In the Pale Moonlight", in which Sisko recruits Garak to help him hatch a plan to manipulate the Romulans into joining the war against the Dominion. Sisko finds himself doing things he never thought he would to bring it about, and the final price for their scheme turns out to be higher than he expected. After wrangling with his conscience, he decides that it is a price he's willing to pay.
R59 makes me well up a little.
I tried to write a thing that would help non-geeks understand us, but it can't be done. That is okay because we're so geeky that we don't even care.
R73 - I guess we just have different standards for what is intellectually challenging.
You say that as if we ought to give a shit.
The way some trekkies act like this is some miracle show or the greatest thing every aired is laughable.
Its a kind of lameass, cheaply produced, hammy acted show. Some of the actors have been okay, but overall its a dull program that smart people don't watch.
It always amazes me how politically conservative STAR TREK fans can be. Lopsidedly so. It makes no sense to me. The show is so liberal. It's pretty much a socialist society, isn't it?
While it was on TNG was my favorite. It isn't now. Watching it as an adult it hasn't held up well. It's like a star ship being run by the human resources department. I keep saying my favorite is TOS out of loyalty. But in my heart of hearts my favorite is Voyager. I also think Katherine Janeway was the best captain.
My only gripe about Voyager is the killing off of Kes and the not killing off of Harry.
I can't believe someone asked if the OP is still watching the show, but not if he's still with the guy who got him to watch. Well, are you OP?
I guess I should have said the writing off of Kes. I also loved the friendship between Janeway and Tuvok.
Enterpise had some great moments. In fact my favorite female character in the franchise, after Janeway, is T'Pol. My favorite episode from the franchise is the Velcro episode from Enterprise.
Roddenberry was a strong social liberal.
What R73 said. DS9's "In the Pale Moonlight" was one of the most brilliantly morally ambivalent eps. of Star Trek ever. As well as the original's "City on the Edge of Forever," in which Kirk painfully has to allow a wonderful, Mother-Theresa-type saint of a woman to die in order for history to revert its normal course and prevent millions more people from dying. Those are two of many examples of the kind of intelligent, yet morally troubling dilemmas that Trek plots come up with. I can give many more examples on request.
Agree with posters upthread who have given props to Deep Space Nine.
The best, and yet most mysterious and enigmatic character there is Garak, who was portrayed by Andrew J. Robinson.
"Garak" was supposed to be a one-episode character, but the producers liked the actor so much, that they decided to include him as a series regular.
Episodes featuring Garak are all awesome; to save myself from putting them all here, then there's an Elim Garak article at Wikipedia, which also lists all his apperances, including "In the Pale Moonlight".
There were initial suggestions on the show that Garak could have had a more fluid sexuality, but the execs decided to keep him very much straight.
R83 - And Joan Collins played the Mother Thersea character!
He didn't have a big role but Anthony Montgomery was hot as hell as Travis on Enterprise. The had an episode when he was in his briefs. Had a hot body and a big donkey dick. He's had a pretty good career post Enterprise.
What was the story about the set of "Voyager?" I've heard that some of the cast didn't get along.
On Voyager everybody hated everybody but Mulgrew stayed above it all. She didn't try to make friends but she didn't try to make enemies. When the show was done filming everyone, but Mulgrew, just huffed away. No party, no hugging, no tears. Nothing. Mulgrew kind of hung around the set sadly.
Robert Beltran was the worse. He was a big shit stirrer and never gave that up. Even after the show ended.
R88 : All of the below according to rumour:
Robert Beltran's reason was that the material given to actors wasn't very good — most episodes were crap, despite some that are awesome and brilliant — and it appears he made the point of pointing it out during the show's run (at least on set and likely not in public), not like other actors who only began talking after their contracts had expired.
I gathered that Mulgrew's favourite was Jennifer Lien, a young acress with immense potential (watch the ep "Warlord"), and Mulgrew was the most distraught after Lien was unjustly fired.
The story about Lien's firing was that because they were to introduce Jeri Ryan to play Seven of Nine, one of either Lien or Garrett Wang had to go because of budgetary reasons. Wang burned the candle from both sides (party-party), and was once late to the set, so he was the likeliest to be fired; note the storyline on "Scorpion, Part I", where his character was struck by a deadly virus. But then Wang appeared in the list of 50 most beautiful people in a celeb magazine, "and so the axe fell on the lovely neck of Jennifer Lien," as someone so succinctly put it in another forum.
And that sucks because Kes was FUCKING BRILLIANT character. I heard they got rid of Kes because they thought the show would become to female with Mulgrew, Ryan, Dawson, and Lien as main characters. I just loved Kes. Near the start of the show I could have done without Harry or B'Elanna. But they both grew on me. Especially B'Elann. She became indispensable. Especially her interaction with 7.
Had a friend in the industry who worked on the Trek shows, Lien was let go due to long standing drug issues. Wang, along with Beltran, was a HUGE pain in the ass to everyone involved. Huge resentment when it became the Ryan show and she was fucking Braga.
TNG cast got along well but they never had a final get together since after the series finale wrapped, they just reported back to the set to film the Generations movie. Spiner is a cunt of epic proportions, as well as McFadden. He said Frakes, Sirtis, Dorn and Burton were sweet as pie.
My friend absolutely adored the few seasons he worked on DS9. No drama on that set at all. Everyone genuinely liked everyone else and since that show was so character driven, everyone got their moments to shine unlike TNG (the Stewart/Spiner show) or Voyager (the Mulgrew/Ryan/Picardo show). From what i understand that cast still keeps in touch with one another more than any of the other Trek shows.
Enterprise was just a mess with Berman & Braga throwing an idea against the wall hoping it would stick. Linda Park was an epic bitch while Trinneer and Keating were great fun.
Oh I loved Kes, too, R90 .
Now imagine what Kes' interaction with Seven of Nine would have been. That would have, of course, sidelined Janeway :-)
Maybe this is what the TPTB were afraid of, given that having a female captain must have been such a big deal for them in the first place.
I wonder if Jennifer Lien's departure somehow demoralized the creative crew in that the quality of stories began to decline after that.
Regardless of Voyager's problems, the most interesting, heavyweight actors on the show were Janeway, The Doctor and Seven of Nine. Those three acted CIRCLES around the rest of Voyager's cast.
Lien could have been instead allowed (well, politely suggested) to enter rehab during the show's hiatus, if Wang was such a pain. That would have allowed TPTB to show that they cared about their actors, even if Wang were fired.
There have been so many events in-between, that sometimes I don't really care about Ryan having had rumoured on-set dalliances.
Because — Jeri Ryan around 1999 testified in court during divorce proceedings against her former husband Jack Ryan, who was a Republican
federal senate candidate for Illiois, that he had been forcing her into kinky sex and other lurid things. The cat was pulled out of the bag on this (not without a fight, I might add), and that effectively forced the demise of Mr. Ryan's 2004 senate campaign, with the replacement GOP candidate not beign as strong. The result was that Barack Obama became the Senator from Illinois. And then President. Yay for that.
Seven of Nine was a great addition to Voyager, even though it was resented by the actors at least in the beginning. It was thought that Ryan was going to turn Voyager into the Tits and Ass In Space Show, but fortunately she was a superb actress and made Seven of Nine a very compelling character. I can believe that Beltran was a huge pain in the ass. He has a giant ego and probably thought he should've been the star of the show. If you've noticed, he hasn't really worked since so that tells you a lot.
I attended a con a few years ago and saw Marina Sirtis and she was a fucking RIOT and such a cool person. Love her! She had the audience rolling with laughter during her panel and Q&A.
Count me as another fan of Next Generation's "Face of the Enemy." Because that's where Marina Sirtis really let fly with her acting chops; Troi was absolutely ferocious in that episode. As was the female Romulan commander. Total acting extravagance.
Jeri's still hot. She was playing Dana Dekany's boss on Body of Proof.
By 'hiatus' I mean Summer break, or a break between seasons.
I'm not sure if it's possible to keep working from rehab, but if it is, then Lien should also have been offered that option. But that's things past, and it's not easy to speculate on this.
The great thing is that Lien is alive and well, and I believe she is doing better now compared to that point in her life, even if she's not in the tv business at the time of this writing.
Oh yea, R96 , there should have been a season-long arc of Troi as Major Rakal secretly in a Romulan Warbird. Even commanding said Warbird, omg. Not sure if the budget would have held up. Or maybe Troi as Rakal on Generations. Wowww, yumm.
Jennifer Lien was arrested for domestic assault not too long ago.
Isn't Beltran gay? Wife and child nonwithstanding.
You've got to give Picardo credit. He took, what could have been a throwaway character, and made it the standout of the show. Jeri Ryan was the shit. Looking back at my favorite episodes with the characters most of them revolve around their interaction with Ryan. Especially the episode when they have to hide the Doctor so he is integrated into Seven. Ryan fucking IS THE DOCTOR.
Another pivotal, what could have been, cast loss was Denise Crosby on TNG. The show never fully got over that.
Have been watching DS9 lately, started with season 2 and about to watch the last 10 episodes of season 7. It's such a great show. A lot of character driven stories, great direction and great acting. Of all the ST shows I think DS9 is the one that has aged the best.
Somebody early upthread complained about cheap production design and poor SFX in TOS and TNG. I don't think that matters much. If the story is still good you can get past the design.
Will give VOY and ENT another try next. I remember from the original run that I liked ENT' 4th season a lot. Trineer and Park were my favorite actors on that show.
I really tried to like Enterprise, and really tried to give it a chance, but it was just boring. Jolene Blalock as T'Pol was awesome, though.
Enterprise did have one excellent episode, called "Carbon Creek." That's the one where T'Pol tells Trip and Archer the story about her great-grandmother and two other Vulcans crash-landing on Earth in the 1950s and having to survive for quite a while before they were rescued. That ep. was the only one that was great from beginning to end.
R103 I posted up thread that Carbon Creek is my all-time favorite Star Trek episode!! Love that someone else thought it was great too. Loved Jolene.
I want a new Star Trek show. A show that honors the old shows and yet is modern. And looking at the latest movies, I want the show to be rather smart. It's not too much to ask for, is it? Many shows nowadays have smart writing and have good acting and still can be successful.
I suppose a new show would be on cable, so seasons would be limited to 10 to 12 episodes. Who could house a new Star Trek show? Scyfy is probably not able to pay for it. TNT? Or the CW after all? But then it would probably turn into Star Trek Academy. Netflix maybe?
[quote]I want a new Star Trek show. A show that honors the old shows and yet is modern. And looking at the latest movies, I want the show to be rather smart. It's not too much to ask for, is it? Many shows nowadays have smart writing and have good acting and still can be successful.
There have been some rumblings that there's a new series in the pipe, with the rumor being that rather than it carrying on from the reboot movies directly, it would be the TNG of that universe. Huge grains of salt there. I think SyFy would probably swing it if they somehow managed to get another network, like the BBC to go with them. Or if CBS can get a good enough deal with international rights to make it a good investment.
I'm sure, unfortunately, it would probably end up being shot in Canada or anywhere they could get a tax credit.
I don't think Netflix has pockets that are quite deep enough yet. It would require too much of an outlay of capital to get sets constructed and special effects teams licensed. If their deal with Marvel pays off, then maybe a few years down the road.
[quote]The story about Lien's firing was that because they were to introduce Jeri Ryan to play Seven of Nine, one of either Lien or Garrett Wang had to go because of budgetary reasons.
Actually, they were both going to be fired. And it wasn't just for budget, it was because both of them were disruptive to the show, Lien with her drug problems, and Wang constantly missing calls and showing up not knowing his lines.
I give Kate Mulgrew all the credit in the world, because while she wasn't happy about what the producers had done to Lien, she also made it known around set that Jeri Ryan hadn't done anything other than accept a role, and that she would not be happy if people were rude. She's said that she wasn't happy about the entire situation, but that had nothing to do with Ryan (she actually goes out her way saying how talented Ryan is).
[quote]Especially the episode when they have to hide the Doctor so he is integrated into Seven. Ryan fucking IS THE DOCTOR.
I'll see that, and raise you the episode where she gets Borg Multiple Personality Syndrome. When a statuesque blonde is so in touch with her inner Ferengi that you don't even need dialog to tell you that she is a Ferengi, she's doing something very, very right.
The Voice of the Night
How stereotypically gay of you to obsess mostly about the fashions and let them ruin a whole show for you.
Can you be more shallow?
How glib are you, to accuse NEXT GEN of "bad writing" but never give an example?
The only example of bad acting you gave was Wesley Crusher, but you probably only hate him because you don't respect him in that position or are jealous, just like the Trekkers!
(Don't worry, Wesley's role gets diminished as NEXT GEN gets better).
Shame on you for only noticing fashion and technology. Shame on you for thinking your era's fashion and technology is superior. Shame on you for thinking you know what the future is going to look like in any bold way.
Both fashion and STAR TREK will always look odd to people from later generations who discover them.
That doesn't make them bad, unrespectable or a laughing stock.
The visual effects (not "special effects, asswipe), will never be as good as a later generation's. But NEXT GEN's visual effects were state-of-the-art back then.
You fault TREK for crawling before learning to run.
All the shows precious to you will have "embarrassing" visual effects to generations later than you, so laugh it up while you still can. Keep going to GODZILLA, CAPTAIN AMERICA or SPIDER MAN 2 with a straight face.
They'll be obsolete soon. But unlike many STAR TREK episodes and movies, they won't be remembered as classics or hold up over time because of good writing and production, which TREK often has.
I didn't mind the obsolete styles when I discovered the '60s STAR TREK TV show in the late '80s.
It was generally good writing and provocative science fiction.
NEXT GEN was just debuting and its costumes, hair and visual effects were cool and cutting-edge.
OP = snot-nosed brat with no appreciation for history, vintage artwork or products of their time.
Is Benjamin Franklin an asshole because he didn't have the internet right off the bat?
Care to get specific about your writing complaints?
STAR TREK never batted 1,000. But it's a great and important, American classic with themes, characters and adventures that have stood the test of time.
[quote]Do the plotlines begin to stretch out over multiple episodes or is does episode have a self-contained story?
This goes to show how SPOILED and IGNORANT the OP is.
TV shows didn't really have unified plots or "arcs" until the last 10-15 years, because of HBO, stunt shows like LOST or 24; increased competition from old AND new media.
TV Mini series had unified plots.
But multi-season series before the aughts would develop arcs or themes in between several episodes of other ideas, because a show like STAR TREK is so much work in sheer volume and the demand is constant.
Kids these days expect GAME OF THRONES quality, 24-7, they think it comes for free, it happens overnight and can be stretched over 26 hour-long episodes per year.
They fault TV shows in the past for not being modern. They see nothing of value, and don't realize how hard it would be to unify the plots of 26 hour-long episodes in ONE SEASON.
Well let me tell you, whippersnapper, back in my day we had to hike five miles barefoot through 10 "Trouble With Tribbles" before we ever came across one "Rains of Castamere!"
And if you want to talk about campy futuristic predictions that never came true, STAR TREK has never committed anything as egregious as this:
garret wang...big party mo...sucked his cock at an after hours...was surprised he didn't get fired...notice the weight gain through out the series...just saying...
So you were on Wang's wang?
I was in Wang's wing!
I WANTED Frakes. Bad. He went from being svelte, smooth faced and debonair to a husky bear within a span of about three years.
r107 f sounds ultra high maintenance.
Indeed, R113. His is a textbook example of histrionic behavior.
They were like family.
Kirk was like the Dad who was creepy and overacted as the patriarch. Spock was like the cold, hand-wringing mother who rarely needed sex. Sulu was like the smart but warped reliable friend who'd let you copy his science quiz answers. Uhura was the like the reliable cool chick, who taught you how to communicate with other boys and to stand up for yourself. And then there's Scotty, who was always beaming, had crystals and knew how to make things work with his spittle.
Interesting article. Roddenberry a drug addict and Rick Berman a homophobe. Apparently there was to be an allegorical episode with AIDS as the subtext and Berman nixed
R107 - "TV shows didn't really have unified plots or "arcs" until the last 10-15 years, because of HBO, stunt shows like LOST or 24; increased competition from old AND new media."
Deep Space Nine had arcs late in its run. St Elsewhere and Hill Street had arcs, even though they were more than 25 years ago.
BBC America aired the two-part series premier "Encounter at Farpoint" earlier this evening. I remember watching it when it originally aired and being thrilled that Star Trek was back. And with modern effects! Today, it looked somewhat cheesy and most of the cast seemed to be struggling to fit into their parts. The only interesting part was the acting of Patrick Stewart and John DeLancie and the interaction between their two characters, Jean-Luc Picard (and as the old ST comment says, why did a Frenchmen have a British accent) and Q.
R117 - The first season of ST:TNG was mediocre to really bad. It really didn't become good until the third season.
"I'm sensing joy! Overwhelming joy!"
We all love it.
It's a stupid boring show with cheesy sets and writing and really, really bad acting.
X Files at least was atmospheric and subtle.
Sci fi usually is stupid.
and there are NO identified gays in the characters.