http%3A//everydayfeminism.com/2012/08/why-men-need-feminism-3/%3Fupw
- Ugh
- DUH
- This is not news. Most of those things are about expectations and attitudes. One of the commenters on the site says it best- say fuck what society thinks and do what makes you comfortable.
Feminism is losing currency.
- I agree, R3. I was turned off feminsm when it became ok to hate men. Most feminists set themselves above men, like somehow being a woman is better than being a man. You're supposed to "celebrate" womanhood. I call BS. I didn't sign on to this. I'm all for equal rights, equal pay etc, but I do not like what feminism today represents. I think it needs a makeover. It's ok to hate men, and I find it ridiculous!
- The biggest myth about feminism is that it's about hating men. That is not the core of the movement at all. Discussions of, for example, domestic violence as they relate to feminism does not entail man-hating.
There are also many branches of feminism.
[quote] I'm all for equal rights, equal pay etc
That's pretty much it. Everything else is just extraneous.
Anonymous
- Feminists don't hate men, they hate patriarchy.
You guys would be against patriarchy too, if you understood it. Traditional patriarchy is brutal to gay men.
Old Feminist
- ZZZZZZzzzzzzzz ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz ZZZZZZZzzzzz...
- R5.. that might be what the true purpose of feminism is.. but it's not what feminism really is today. Feminism has turned into an ideology where hating men is ok. I'm just not into it. I'm wary of calling myself a feminist because some crazy bitches have turned feminism into something radical, which I really don't want to be associated with.
- R8 As I said, there are many branches of feminism. Like R6 said, it's against patriarchy, not men as a gender.
Some man haters might be feminists, but feminism is not man hating.
R5
- How old are you, r5/8?
- BOUNDARIES HAVE BEEN STATED!!!
- R8, it has nothing to do with hating men. I don't under stand why you're so needy. A gay and your life revolves around what women think of you as a man? Pathetic.
- Sometimes feminists exhibit the worst aspects of men - clubishness, alpha domination of conversation, hierarchical group structure, bad breath - and I don't understand that.
Anonymous
- r12, that poster didn't say his life revolved around it: he stated what he thought of contemporary feminism. Try to focus and stay on topic.
His assessment: "I'm wary of calling myself a feminist because some crazy bitches have turned feminism into something radical" is a pretty common one among both men and women.
I myself wouldn't say that it's "radicals" who hijacked feminism, but the movement did get very dogmatic, academic, regimented, and authoritarian: its adherents often didn't bother distinguishing sensible, righteous claims from the outrageous ones. ("The daily life of the American housewife is worse than the Batan death march!!! Prison! Horror! Enslavement!")
It's turned off most young people, and you'd be hard-pressed to find many young women today who identify as feminist.
- R14, take a pill. Let R12 answer for himself.
- It's OK for you guys to hate women, but it's not OK for (some) women to hate men?
That's rich.
- Feminism helps straight men get laid- if they are "alpha." It's mostly about "empowering" women to be slutty, as long as its not with nice guys.
- Feminism in academia has tried to ally itself with "queer" but it's mostly a lot of handwringing by straight women that frankly comes off as very conservative.
- I'm R8 and I'm a woman you moron. I support equal rights and equal pay, but I still won't call myself a feminist. I just associate so much bad stuff with the word. Feminism today has turned into something radical, and I just can't associate with that. How is it ok to hate on men? It's not. Too many feminists go down that route. If feminism got back to its roots, about what matters, like equal pay, paid maternity leave etc, then I'd support it. But I won't support it as long as some radical lesbians have hijacked the discussion and think it's ok to put women above men and hate on men. It's like men are the devil! It's just so off putting.
Bisexual%20female%20
- [quote] just associate so much bad stuff with the word.
like what?
- R20, I have JUST said why I don't like feminism. I associate feminism with radical lesbians who think they're above men, who thinks all men are evil, and that women are better than men. I'm all for equal rights, but I still refuse to call myself a feminist. The meaning is just lost. It's not about equal rights and equal pay anymore, it's about making women into victims and making men the culprits. It has just gotten out of hand. Like I said.. when feminism goes back to its roots, that's when I will call myself a feminist. I refuse to call myself a feminist as long as the militarized insane men hating dykes hijack the discussion. How about women take charge of their own lives for once, and stop blaming men for all of their misery?
Bisexual%20female
- that sounds silly.
My great-grandmother was a bloomer baby (look it up if you have to) and held a demanding job her whole life becoming a leader of the community. She was a feminist.
My grandmother decided to go to school, not get married and have a career. Then she later did marry and yet still had the job skills to work and support her brood when her husband died. She was a feminist. She wrote too and spoke to President Ford about reproductive rights. I still have the respectful letter he sent her afterwards
My mother was shy and unassuming, she wanted to become a teacher of kindergarten. She did, but was incensed when ERA wouldn't pass and Shlfry, whoever demanded that women direct their lives like SHE wanted. She too was a feminist.
None of those women were lesbians, militant or men-haters. Your idea was feminism seems very limited, shall I say, purblind? I hope that you're very very young and will learn.
gay%20male%20and%20fourth%20generation%20feminist
- R8 is correct that feminism is sometimes hostile to men.
It can't help but be any other way, because the oppression and abuses that it is naming and trying to change are perpetrated by men.
Women are in kind of a bind in this sense, in that they can either call out these injustices and get labelled man-haters, or they can shut about about them and ensure that nothing ever changes.
That doesn't mean, however, that feminists need to view individual men as 'the enemy'.
- Feminism has nothing to do with "hating men" where are you fools getting this?
- R8/21, why are you so hung up on the idea that 'lesbians' ruined feminism?
The very few feminists I've known who were genuinely man-hating were embittered straight women.
You seem to have some kind of animus towards not just towards feminism but to lesbians.
- The hysterical anti-porn crusade turned a lot of men off of feminists. Guys like their porn, and saw that whole crusade as puritanical nannyism.
- Feminism = Man-hating MichFest lesbians
Straight women want nothing to do with it.
http://m5.i.pbase.com/g6/37/726937/2/83955525.EUTiO4S4.jpg
Sarah%2C%20twirling%20her%20vagina%20cape
- that doeesn't seem like feminism to me. lots of fools on this thread
which%20doesn%27t%20surprise%20me
- R25, I just used lesbians as an example, because they're the worst. They are more outspoken in their hate for men, but trust me.. many straight women who are feminists hate men too.
- R29, you sound cracked
- R30, why? Because I'm against what feminism has become? I think more women should be critical of the new feminism. I'm not against equal rights at all, but I am against what feminism represents today. Why can't I support women's rights without labeling myself a feminist? Why isn't that just as good?
Bisexual%20female%20
- [quote]Because I'm against what feminism has become?
no, because it never "became" anything you describe. you sound very disturbed.
- Men are just trying to get on the land.
Nan%20Michiganwomyn
- Actually, R32. It has. Read up on it. I have actually studied feminism in university. I probably know more about feminism than you. And if you read this thread I'm not the only one against what feminism has become either, yet you decide to gang up on me because I'm a woman and I'm not supposed to have those viewpoints, but it's ok if a guy has it. There's probably a lot of women out there with the same views, but they don't dare to speak up in fear of being bashed by feminazis like yourself.
- Early 20s, R10
Anonymous
- R8/21/31/34 is the kind of person who thinks International Women's Day is sexist because 'There's no International Men's Day'.
- change the story
http://htsmstory.com
Nicholas%20Kristoff%2C%20%20first%20rate%20feminist
- First of all - feminism is not a monolith, so stop posting like it is.
Second, gays are still oppressed by typical patriarchy and masculine dominance - get on board, assholes.
- Some quotes from famous feminists. Tell me again that feminism isn't about hating men.
[quote]To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking dildo.
[quote]I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.
[quote]The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men.
[quote]The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.
[quote]All men are rapists and that’s all they are.
http://www.womenagainstmen.com/media/feminism-is-a-hate-group.html
- R21 you've apparently never met any of these "radical lesbians" Have you? Don't you know you're the victim of a propaganda campaign?
- R40, I actually HAVE met radical lesbians, as I've studied feminism, but nice try though. And no.. I'm not the victim of a propaganda campaign. I still support equal rights, I just don't want to associate myself with what feminism has become, which is why I won't call myself a feminist. I just can't support it when the cause is to hate men and put women above men. I don't think that's right.
- Nice segue r37. great story, too.
I'm thankful for the women that fought for their rights, and appreciate their tenacity; for they paved the way for other civil rights.
- Nice source you have there, R39. I'm sure a page entitled "Feminism Is a Hate Group" on a site called "Women Against Men" isn't going to be unabashedly biased in one way or another at all.
Anyone trying to argue ANY point about anything can cherry-pick specific quotes and take them out of the context of the big picture in order to serve their own purposes. However, intelligent people know that this proves nothing.
- Still not buying it R41. Anyone who has worked in the corporate sphere knows that sexism is still predominately one-way: against WOMEN, not men. If some women have an unrealistic idea that women possess special virtues they don't really possess, it's because they have been kept out of power that would have disabused people of these quaint notions.
- If R41 is a woman I'm Dick Van Dyke.
Soot-hating%2C%20militant%20chimney%20sweep
- Most young gay boys (and girls, too) are too boy-crazy for feminism to even be an afterthought.
- R22 nailed it.
THREAD CLOSED.
- Threads like this are just feminism trying to co-opt the egalitarian movement.
- ALL of this was said about the feminists of the early 70s, that they were radical lesbian man-haters, even though the theme was equal pay for equal work. I actually heard 'experts' on Donahue argue that women didn't have the brains to do the same work as men, that it was unnatural for women to compete with men for top jobs.
Don't get me started on what whites said about militant civil rights. How black were dangerous and angry and 'taking over.' How they couldn't be trusted or hired because of their hatred of whites...blah blah blah.
- R44 nailed it. This Bisexual female individual who keeps posting reminds me of what I used to think about feminism when I was about 14 years old. I know you think you mean well, but you ARE the victim of a propaganda campaign whether you have the life experience to notice it or not. The whole "feminism = nothing but a bunch of man hating bull dykes" notion comes directly from right wingers who want to keep women in their place (think Rush Limbaugh coining the word "feminazi" and throwing it around on almost every broadcast like a rabid shit-flinging monkey). It's all an attempt to usurp the women's equal rights movement by taking their own word away from them and perverting it into something that - at its fundamental core - it isn't and never was. There are some things that have been held up by the media as being representative of "feminism" in general that I don't agree with (i.e., the radical anti-porn group), but when advocates for women's equality sit back and allow right wing media figures to control the dialogue about what the word "feminist" means, we are losing, plain and simple.
- R50 should be required reading.
R49 didn't add that whites portrayed themselves as the victims of black militants and their hatred of whites. Sort of like the men who are so frightened and offended by what they think feminism is.
- No R48, feminists are pretty upfront about trying obtain equality via the emancipation of women and the attempt to eradicate sexism. The clue is in the name.
Anonymous
- But that's why the OP of this thread is correct to bring up the point that it does actually have positive consequences for men too.
R52
-
[quote] Limbaugh coining the word "feminazi" and throwing it around on almost every broadcast like a rabid shit-flinging monkey
We know better Rush, and anybody associating feminism with man-hating is a sucker.
- Perhaps what might turn some people off about "feminism" is the often self-congratulatory attitude they have for themselves and to hell with everyone else. I tend to see them as inflexible, stiff-necked types who always have to have it their own way to the extent that they would be blinded by intelligent men making intelligent suggestions. There is often a fine line between frauism and feminism. All this old school crap about holding doors open for women, "ladies first", pulling out chairs for them, etc., ad nauseam is thankfully on its way out seemingly due to "feminism", but one perceives flaws in feminism to the point where it really does need a makeover. I, myself, have been waiting for a men's movement to liberate men from homophobia, among other things. Straight men especially need to liberate themselves from using women as their sexual point of reference. Actually, I've often thought the Amazon story of Greek mythology might have some practical application--2 separate societies, men raise the boys, women raise the girls and they get together at certain times of the year ala Plato's Republic, to copulate in order to maintain the species.
Anonymous
- Men need feminism like a submarine needs a screen door.
- [quote]you've apparently never met any of these "radical lesbians
no, as they are such a miniscule minority they are hard to encounter.
- That screen door will be handy when you run out of water to float in.
- R55 has a point, not about feminism, but about the extraordinary lengths societies go to to enforce and naturalise heterosexuality for men.
The truth about the widespread nature of men's desire for other men is kept very hidden behind their endless, desperate objectification of women and nervous jokes about gayness.
You only have to watch some 'straight' porn to see how absolutely enchanted men in general are with dicks, assholes and cum.
If the masculine anxiety around the idea that homosexual sex makes you less of a man dissolved, we would see just how many truly 'straight' men there are - my guess is less than 20 per cent.
- Great thread, except that r59 is boring me with his "Most men are really gay" agenda!
- "Feminism" is too academic for most, now. That started with the post-war Gloria Steinems who wanted to show off their college degrees (they were early examples of tiger children)
- Hug, R22. I like male feminists and female feminists.
R29, I don't think you know the first thing about feminism.
Another%20Bisexual%20Female
- Thanks, R62, I like bisexual feminists too. just not cracked ones like R29
R22
- Gay men will never be regarded as totally equal in society until women are regarded as totally equal.
- R64. Not true
- r64 I agree sort of. But I wouldn't be surprised if society accepts gay men into the patriarchy before women- lesbian or straight. It could happen. That said, feminism benefits gay men more than straight men. Especially gay men that are perceived as [childish epithet posted by a bigoted tool].
- The word feminism is loaded. For starters there are different schools and waves of feminism. Only "radical" feminist and "sex negative" feminist hate men. Most other schools of feminism are neutral or positive when it comes to men.
If someone has a problem with feminism, they should specify what feminist, feminist literature, or school of feminism they oppose, rather than the blanket "feminist hate men and are full of lesbians."
- R64. That is a desperate grasp for a rope that is out of your reach.
- why is the term "eff minate" blocked??
- Society will never be financially sound until every person has equal rights.
- R65, correct. Gay men will never be regarded as totally equal in society ever.
- Because tools use the word pejoratively.
- r68 Why is that poster wrong?? Most homophobia is related to femininity hating and a rigid view of gender roles.
Most feminist don't believe gender roles are natural. They believe it is a social construct. And if feminist win on this theory/idea, this will decrease homophobia. Most homophobes hate gay people because they think their is a gender role transgression.
- Gay man here, pro-women and pro-feminism. I just wanted to pick up on what R16 said:
[quote]It's OK for you guys to hate women, but it's not OK for (some) women to hate men?
Neither is o.k. by me. I [italic]understand[/italic]how some people may develop a hatred for another group due to some perceived oppression they have personally suffered in childhood (or whenever)...
...but I'm [italic]not[/italic] o.k. with that hatred itself.
Gay%20men%20don%27t%20hate%20women%20%28though%20some%20fools%20do%29
- The problem with feminism is that it needs a major image overhaul, "re-branding," if you will. When the average American, both male and female, hear the word "feminism," they immediately think of extreme Andrea Dworkin, Catherine McKinnon-type women. They are completely turned off by it.
The women's movement was often its own worst enemy, letting whacko fringe types like Dworkin hog the spotlight and that muddled the real message of feminism.
- A study in the UK and Germany finds most young women reject feminism...
It said: ‘In rejecting feminism, women are often seeking to position themselves within conventional norms of femininity and heterosexuality.
‘Although none of the participants could point to specific individuals, most still viewed pioneers of gender equality as lesbian, man-hating feminists.’
That's probably completely untrue, but feminism obviously needs some reputation management.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2289923/Portrait-21st-century-British-woman-One-childless-age-45-fewer-half-married.html
- A lot of homophobia is rooted in misogyny, I believe R64
Anonymous
- The Daily Mail would say that though, wouldn't it, bastion of feminist thought that it is...
I think it has overgone a bit of an overhaul of late - on the internet, at least.
R79%20etc
- R76, society has been saying that about feminism all my life. And I attended ERA rallies with my mom when I was a child.
Society has been patriarchal all my life, too.
Feminists can't win with the patriarchal society.
So feminists instead roll up our sleeves and do what we can to end human trafficking and preseve reproductive freedom.
We also do what we can to nourish and educate children, heal the planet, comfort the elderly and handicapped, etc. Things that are de- valued in a patriarchal, capitalistic society, yet keep us humane and civilized.
- Barbara Ehrenreich said that feminism was hijacked my Breast Cancer Awareness -- the pink everything campaign is sort of a Feminism 2.0
- Sisterhood 2013 --
San Diego woman convicted of sex crime against another woman
March 8, 2013 | 8:31 am
A San Diego woman has been convicted of a sex crime against another woman.
Catherine McCoy, 49, committed the crime against the 21-year-old woman on Aug. 18, 2011, with a golf club because she believed the victim had had sex with McCoy's boyfriend, prosecutors said. They said McCoy then left the victim naked on the side of Route 125 near Spring Valley.
The victim testified during a trial in San Diego County Superior Court that ended Wednesday with a jury convicting McCoy of sexual penetration with a foreign object.
McCoy faces a possible sentence of life in prison during a hearing scheduled for March 22, according to prosecutors.
In a separate trial last year, McCoy's boyfriend, Christopher Carrera, 34, was convicted of assisting in the attack. He was sentenced to 16 years in prison.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/03/san-diego-woman-sex-crime.html
- Can someone give a rundown/synopsis of how suffrage was extended to women given that the power structure was of, by and for men? I know about Susan B. Anthony and about the Seneca Falls Convention in 1848, etc. but exactly how were the right number of key men convinced that women ought to have the vote? Wyoming was the first territory (not state yet) to extend a limited vote to women mostly dealing with local issues such as school boards; was it then an upswell from local/grassroots political activity similar to how Prohibition was achieved?
Anonymous
- If one looks at a map of which states ratified the 19th amendment and which didn't, the states not ratifying were mostly in the South although Tennessee did ratify it which gave it enough states to make it law. Ironically the South was solidly Democratic at that time as southern states tended to co-opt the Democratic party machines there to help maintain segregation and "keep Blacks down". The beginnings of change came about with various Black leaders calling for an end to segregation but the Roosevelt-Truman era was more of the watershed as it was in so many things. From Lyndon Johnson on the South embraced the Republican party except for a few aberrations with Jimmy Carter (one of their own) and Bill Clinton.
Anonymous
- Poor men. We always get the short end of then sick. Things have got to change.
- [r83], thank you for posting that. 99% of sex crimes are committed by men. But the 1% of women committing sex crimes in men math means women are just as bad as men.
Women who don't embrace feminism are often squirrely little fag hags, competitive with other women and cock suckers (and not in the good sense) who identify and enable the male agenda much to their own detriment.
I may not agree with everything the Democratic Party says or does, but I'd still call myself a proud Dem just like I call myself a feminist.
- [quote]We always get the short end of then sick.
oh, dear
- R84, I believe the impetus behind male legislators finally granting women the vote in the US in 1920 was similar to the factors that drove the tardy extension of suffrage to women in the UK (1918 for married women over 30 and 1928 for all):
a) WW1 - after women's efforts in previously male-dominated jobs during the war, it was no longer possible to deny they were competent adults with a role to play in public life.
b) embarrassment that they looked so backward compared with former colonies Australia (suffrage granted in 1902) and New Zealand (1893).
The second factor has parallels with the progression of the gay marriage debate in the US, IMO. As more and more European countries around the world legalised it, it became more and more embarrassing for progressive US politicians to oppose it.
- I think that Socialism and revolutions world-wide at the time (not least of which was the Russian Revolution in 1917) must have been creating a climate in which female suffrage couldn't be denied, even in the US and UK. I think unions may have begun to advance the cause of female suffrage as well.
Anon
- This is one of those threads that makes me feel, as Kenneth Anger captioned a picture of Judy G., "old, old, old." I entered college in 1975--so long ago I had a girlfriend (she decided she was a lesbian, I figured out I liked men, and we've remained friends, though it took a cooling off period of a few years first). I remember describing myself as a feminist in one of those cringe-worthy conversations new college students have with their parents when they visit home, and my mother responding antagonistically and argumentatively. She was in her mid-fifties and had worked as a nurse the first several years of my parents' marriage, because she had an RN, whereas my father had dropped out of high school to fight in WWII. He got a job with a bank, where he worked for thirty years, and was more than happy to quit her job before I was born (my father did most of the childcare when my brother and sister were little--I was the last, born when mom was 39) and spend the rest of her life keeping house and doing the majority of the child-raising. She was rather defensive about feminism and particularly dismissive of my allegiance to its principles. When I took a course in women in literature my freshman year I was one of only two men in a class of fifty (and the only man who came to class regularly). I remember feeling overwhelmed the first day and the instructor asked me to stay behind the second day. I expected her to tell me she would prefer I drop so it could be a women's space. Quite the contrary, she strongly encouraged me to stay, saying she was pleased to have me there and was even more impressed that I was a first-year student (it was a junior level class). And I got an A, not by kissing up, but by taking the work seriously. I read Simone de Beauvoir and Virginia Woolf's feminist theories for the first time, was introduced to Kate Chopin and Doris Lessing (and broke up with my girlfriend--who was at a different college). My closest mentor throughout college, grad school, and my professional career has been a professor who was the youngest woman to be president of the AAUP--I wrote a dissertation on a female poet under her supervision.
None of this was by design or in an arch or self-conscious way of trying to prove my support of "feminism" as an ideology--it's just what happened as the result of a series of encounters that taught me how to value women's lives, struggles, and accomplishments, and to understand (as an emerging gay men) how the difference was that women as a category had had to work harder through history to have access to education, power, support. While, like most other gay men, I suppose I admit to squeamishness about ladyparts, but I assume that's my psychological adaptation, nothing inherent in comparative attractiveness of our genitalia (I also am squeamish about uncut cock--so sue me).
Can I still find myself falling into stereotypes about women and particularly lesbians--of course, I'd be a liar to deny it. Stereotypes are simply lazy generalizations, even in those instances where they are based on noticeable social traits found in many members of a group. Some are just fun in a juvenile way (I love the Michfest threads because they often do capture the all-too-silly if in many cases well-intentioned linguistic acrobatics and circumlocutions, and the statements that, under the guise of liberatory rhetoric, mask just as tyrannical a desire for control as that of any male chauvinist pig). And yes, there have been times when I've socialized with my old girl friend and her partner (she's had the current one for ten or more years, but had a number before that--more domestic partners than I, anyway, even if I confirmed the stereotype of the gay man who has more sexual partners) and have found not them, but some of their female friends smug and dismissive of men as a group. That annoys me. But they've also been awfully friendly, warm, and supportive, too--generous of heart. So, feminism has never meant "hating men" for me--and there's no need for it to.
So there, bitches! :)
- r91...that was way to long...nobody will read it.
- R19 , you are not alone. Sadly, the feminist movement has been taken over by the bulldykes!!!
femme%20les%20who%20likes%20men
- r73, is a gender bending butch!! Gay movement is now about rejecting ones gender it's BS!!!
- R92 They don't have to.
- r91, has aspergers
- I appreciated your post, r91. Always glad to hear from male feminists.
Yes%2C%20I%20read%20it
- Actually no, I don't have Asperger's--I teach a number of students who do have AS and I know the difference between someone who is windy (moi) and someone on the spectrum. Too bad you just use Asperger's a lazy way of "insulting" someone (and some of Aspie students, as they often call themselves, are the most creative, thoughtful, and inquisitive young people I know--I would not consider it an insult to be called someone with AS if it were accurate).
- nearly no one has any real idea what the autism spectrum is
- r96, lol thanks for proving my point!! "Aspies" are socially awkward, annoying and especially the most self centered people on the planet. They have motor skills issues among a myriad of others
- Bulldykes ruined feminism
- [quote] [R91]...that was way to long...nobody will read it.
I read it and I liked it. Male feminists are cool in my book.
- "If the masculine anxiety around the idea that homosexual sex makes you less of a man dissolved"
But homophobia and misogyny are inextricably intertwined, in one big ugly patriarchal package. If you want to liberate both gay and straight men from these antiquated attitudes, you actually do have to get with the feminists, rather than just trying to expand the definition of male privilege.
Patriarchy teaches that masculinity is good and powerful, and femininty is bad and weak... and that anything remotely associated with femininity is bad or weak - including a fondness for dick. When the masculine and feminine are equally valued, men will be able to stop fearing the feminine within themselves, and within other men. (And yes, I realize I'm using a very broad definition of "feminine" here.)
Old Feminist
- Women are cunts
- I read R89 (why does everyone think its 91?) too, and appreciated the historical perspective on the feminist revolution from a man.
(Hope that doesn't make you feel 'old, old old', R89).
- I agree with your analysis 100 per cent, R101.
That's why R55's point about the potential for a homo-sex revolution among men is undermined by his dismissal of feminists.
R59
- Good post, r101. Simple but not reductive - I admire the way you put things.
-
R101
I agree.
- Candice Bergen
“We can never forget what the women’s movement did, but I think young women today aren’t thinking that they are downtrodden. I don’t think women today are thinking that they are at a disadvantage,”
http://www.datalounge.com/cgi-bin/iowa/ajax.html%23page:showThread%2C12560013%2C1
-
I cannot stand to read anti-woman and especially anti-feminist shit out here, especially from gay men who are conscious of their rage.
We are not all part of the same battle, but battles have been fought on race and feminist issues that should resonate with any coherent gay person.
gay%20man
- Feminists are hypocritical cunts who bash men. They can all fuck the off.
- *fuck the HELL off
- R109, r110...Frightened, unenlightened white male.
- I not white but I am male and I do have eyes. You are hypocritical cunts who bash men.
- And your problem is? You're another frightened gay upset of how you think women "hate" and "bash" you?
Get a life, cookie. It's passing you by. That means getting out of your mother's basement.
- I'd suggest you get a life bitch. Bashing men as a way of life is disgraceful. But what else would a cunt do? Especially white lesbian cunts. They are the worst.
- r114, you are generalizing son. I know many younger white lesbians and they do not bash men, they actually go out of their way to praise them
- As they should R115. The majority do not. As I said, the white ones are the worse. I guess because there are so many of them. Hypocritical cunts that's what they are. No way around it. Men need to stop putting up with their shit.
- F&F this loser - R109, 110, 112, 114, 116.
- r116, your black mama really fucked you up huh boy?
- He's definitely got some baggage! And a black misogynist to boot! Sad sack.
- Why should you want people to ff me R117? Racist much? Hypocritical much? Just keep proving my point about white lesbians.
R118, You can't blame my mama for how fucked up and hypocritical white lesbos are. That's another thing you can't lay at a black persons feet. Though i'm not surprised you tried.
- what did white lesbians do to you?
- You laid your own shit at your own feet, r120.
You're probably some white freeper playing us for a stereotypical, uneducated bigot black.
Either way, you're sad and pathetic.
- R122, I'm not surprised by your post. Sad and infuriating as it is. I don't think like a white lesbian thinks so I'm not black?! That kinda shit needs to stop. The utter privilage of white lesbians is out of control. It's not the 1700's you dumb cunt. We actually have minds of our own.
- Very nice, you're civilized response shows your true colors, r123. Nut job.
- Your
- You tried to say I wasn't black because I don't think like a hypocritical white lesbian! You have no shame. And you want to bash MY reponce to it?? You are off the rails bitch. But you cunts do keep proving over and over that everything I said is true. No surprise there at all.
- R120, R123, etc = TROLL.
Don't feed the troll. But F&F it.
- Good point r127.
You can't have a conversation with an ignoramus.
And, you can't fix stupid.
- R127, I've had more posts in this thread than the two you mentioned. I stand by them all. I am told I'm not black because I don't have the views of a white lesbian and I'm the troll???!! You can just fuck the hell off you dirty nasty white cunt.
- Mak that CUNTS
- r129 I believe is a white fag!
- R131, Fuck off you racist cunt.
- Mr Webmaster, it's time to step in and take care of this fool.
- r132, go take your AIDS DEMENTIA meds
- Straight men and gay men have more things in common when discussing gender issues than do gays and feminist women.
- And?
Who%20the%20fuck%20cares
- "I not white but I am male and I do have eyes. You are hypocritical cunts who bash men."
Funny how a man calls women "cunts" while complaining about "man bashing".
"Man bashing" as in holding adult men accountable for their fucked up behavior.
I'm sure you call calling out men for their homophobia "man bashing", don't you, you hypocritical little weasel?
- TRIGGER WARNING! TRIGGER WARNING!
Nan%20M.
- R137, I like you logic, but you punctuation need work.
"Man bashing." Is correct.
Why are these men such wimps?
- because they have a life, unlike you, retard
- Feminism can be quite counter-productive and any man who calls himself a feminist is probably a big phoney or a PC brigade tool.
- And that article linked to in the op was very vague and barely said anything.
- [r141]: Yeah. Just like pro-gay and anti-homophobia efforts can be "quite counter-productive" and probably just are a big phoney or a PC brigade tool.
- Feminism creates effeminacy in men and masculinity in women. Why?
- Wasn't talking about that, I was referring to how the OTT empowered attitude that SOME women develop (not all of course) because of the influence of "feminism" just results in pissing men off instead of earning their respect. Particularly in the workplace.
- [r145]: men resent anything and anyone that they perceive as taking away their straight, (mostly) white male privilege.
- When you let a woman get to the top you can end up with Maggie Thatcher.
- At college in the 90s, doing Women's Studies and helping defend reproductive rights was a big deal for me as a young gay man. Calling myself gay (or queer) and a feminist were badges I wore with pride.
20 years later, no one uses the word queer and I think any man who describes himself as a feminist would get a mixed response, at best. The perception that these are all linked issues with common causes and solutions has fallen out of favor.
- [r147]: when you let a man get to the top, you can end up with Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Saddam Hussein, Bush, Mussolini ... and other atrocities.
- Most gay men crave straight male attention and approval, and many of them will throw women under the bus in order to achieve this. The last thing these guys care about is gender equality/feminism.
- More so than heterosexual women doing the same to other women, R150?
That doesn't even make sense. Heterosexual women, by definition, are dependent on straight males as partners. Gay men are not.
- Heterosexual women do it too, r151.
- So much yellow.
- Nothing needier than a gay men seeking for a straight man's approval.
- [quote] 20 years later, no one uses the word queer and I think any man who describes himself as a feminist would get a mixed response
I see you escaped academia. Queer is still a buzzword.
exhausted
- Queer, it has a nice ring to it.
- What men need, particularly in Western societies where they've become more marginalized, where females are an overwhelming majority and where everything from pop-culture to courts to education favors women, is an idea of masculinism.
A masculist movement is quietly stomped down because women have learned that positioning themselves as constant underdogs and "victims", they will continue to be able to manipulate and control the overwhelming majority of the male population.
Boys should be taught that while they should respect girls and women, the same respect is due them; but they aren't taught that. Just the opposite in fact.
Likewise for young gay men. Organizations like the Harvey Milk School and others should teach young gay men and boys that parodying females (drag) can be both offensive to women but more importantly, self loathing as a male.
Men should not only begin to love themselves more and to develop a sense of protection and community among other men, they should begin to demand it from society at large.
- [quote]Men should not only begin to love themselves more and to develop a sense of protection and community among other men, they should begin to demand it from society at large.
haha! Please, men have demanded society with bow to their egos and nepotistic behaviors for centuries.
Gay men have been damaged by these behaviors as much as women.
[quote]parodying females (drag) can be both offensive to women but more importantly, self loathing as a male.
seriously? RuPaul disagrees.
- r158 a VERY masculine dyke
- R157 is my hero.
(R158 was never hugged enough by daddy and takes it out on the entire male sex while refusing to take her medication.)
- love r160
feminine%20gal%20who%20likes%20chicks%20and%20likes%20men
- It's still a man's world entirely, I can't see why this is in discussion.
- a straight man's world
- [quote] It's still a man's world entirely,
Well R162, maybe in the developing world it is; In the United States and most western countries, women outnumber men by as much as 5-1, here in the U.S. that's closer to about 3 or 4-1.
Women make up the majority of high school, 4-year college and graduate school graduates, in part because of the Clinton Administration's attempt to focus public education more towards getting more girls into higher education, but sadly at the cost of boys.
Women make up the overwhelming majority of both lower and middle management in both the U.S. and the U.K. and are edging toward equal numbers in upper/executive management. Women are 20% of the U.S. Senate and nearly 20% in Congress as a whole but of course, that isn't equal. Still, very, very well represented and should be represented even more.
The U.S. courts favor women dramatically over men in both civil and criminal cases with women receiving over 45% less jail time for equal crimes committed by their male counterparts.
There is a myth of modern male power perpetuated I think because there is power in the claim to minority status, a status which doesn't apply to women as a whole in America and even most Western countries.
Tell me again it's a "man's world". It most certainly is not.
- Worldwide, there are slightly more men than women. In Western countries, there are slightly more women than men. According to Census 2000, women are 50.9% of the United States population, hardly an "overwhelming majority" and not even close to the ratios stated. In the United States, the percentage of women in senior management is 17%. In the UK it's 20%. I'm not sure if there's anything factual in the above post, other than the figures given for women in the Senate and Congress.
- Many women choose to stay home with kids
- Sexism and all the related and extrapolated problems is still prevalent in society. Across the developing world, women are still disadvantaged in many ways. Of course we still need "feminism".
Anonymous
- "There is a myth of modern male power perpetuated I think because there is power in the claim to minority status, a status which doesn't apply to women as a whole in America and even most Western countries."
Nonsense. Men still are in charge of 90% or more of all corporations, men still are in charge of Wall Street, Congress, etc.
-
I’ve always thought, that gay men were at least theoretically the ulitimate anti-feminist group. It is a group that literally has no need for women or to interact with them in any way. Yet, in so many ways, the two groups have so much in common that they can work well together.
