GAYS: If you owned a service business, such as a flower shop or bakery, and a customer came in and asked you to provide service for his Ban Gay Marriage Fundraiser, would you?
Yeah, although I'd tell him I'm a big lez first, that I disagree with his position and isn't it ironic that he's asking a married lesbian to provide him with this service.
I suspect this question is not being posed in good faith.
[quote]I suspect this question is not being posed in good faith.
Not sure what you mean.
I wouldn't service it, but I think it's inherently different when these anti-gay companies refuse to dervice gay weddings.
They're rejecting love and tolerance and going against the very values they claim to be clinging to.
In this situation, you're rejecting hate and intolerance.
Yes, I would. And then I'd take any profit I made and donate it to a Gay organization.
You tell him you are gay and he will take his business elsewhere, it's unlikely he will want your product.
I'd make a very big deal about being gay so they would take their business elsewhere and I wouldn't have to be worry about being perceived as a hypocrite.
I would not, and I think every business has the right to do or not do business with anyone they choose.
Depends on what you call "anti-gay" OP, DL has so many definitions for it.
I'm a gay man and if say, some church I knew did not 'believe' in gay marriage, but knew who I was and my lifestyle and was in no way inflammatory or evil in their beliefs, yes, I would work with them as long as there was mutual respect.
If there were an organization actively working to deny me my rights or who advocated violence against gays and lesbians, of course I would not.
I try to respect all beliefs, even those that don't dovetail with my own. There's room for all of us to work together I think, as long as those on opposing sides are not advocating violence.
I would double my profit margin.
Stupid isn't cheap.
But they don't, R7. So that's that.
OP thinks she is making a point but OP entirely misses the point...refusing service to a minority group your religion teaches you to hate is not the same as a black business owner refusing to do business with the KKK. She needs to study the history of the civil rights movement in America. But I'm pretty sure "study" is not a word in her vocabulary.
I was saying that I suspected what R12 said but not being nasty about it. I may have jumped to conclusions.
Shit stirring thread.
Apples to oranges.
They will always find someone else who would provide services.
R12, wtf? Instead of questioning other's ability to "study", why don't you worry about your own ability to read:
[quote]I wouldn't service it, but I think it's inherently different when these anti-gay companies refuse to dervice gay weddings.They're rejecting love and tolerance and going against the very values they claim to be clinging to. In this situation, you're rejecting hate and intolerance.
Admit it OP, you're a shit stirrer. That is the ONLY point of your "question".
Not at all. I actually agree with R12, though he's clearly a dbag.
I just don't understand the rationality that these businesses use when rejecting gay business because it goes against their buddy Jesus Christ. Which Jesus Christ was the one who taught hate and discrimination? Wasn't he all about love? And as far as I know, Jesus said NOTHING about Jesus Christ.
On the other side, though, refusing to aid in "throwing stones" seems very Christ-like.
I would take their business and gouge them.
[quote]Jesus said NOTHING about Jesus Christ.
Should be "gay marriage."
All good businessmen know that you don't turn away paying customers. Everybody's money is green and works the same way.
"They're rejecting love and tolerance and going against the very values they claim to be clinging to. "
Ok, but what does not have to with forcing people who have religious beliefs that are different than yours from engaging in aiding and abetting something they consider a sin against God? I don't see how forcing people to participate something that goes against their sincerely held religious beliefs is humane or good for society. I think it is selfish to want to force people to go against their religious beliefs. Have some tolerance for other peoples' religion.
R23, they are not going against their religious beliefs. These people don't even understand their religious beliefs so that is simply an excuse for bigotry. And bigotry and discrimination based on ANYTHING let alone ignorance should not be acceptable.
[quote]Ok, but what does not have to with forcing people who have religious beliefs that are different than yours from engaging in aiding and abetting something they consider a sin against God?
The fraus have truly taken over DL. Always looking for a reason to justify gay bashing. But don't even think about discriminating against.... well you know who.
Yes, because business is business, and that is how I want to be treated so that is how I treat others.
I don't discuss politics, religion or sex and that includes sexual orientation.
[quote] [bold]I just don't understand[/bold] the rationality that these businesses use when rejecting gay business
That's right OP. You just don't understand.
You actually think that those homophobic people are involved in a religion based on the teachings attributed to Jesus.
Since you lack the ability to even comprehend that lie, there's no use in discussing your comparison to gays providing service for an anti-gay function.
r24, explain that one, please. Do you think that people whose religious beliefs tell them that same-sex marriage/relationships are a sin against God think that their religious beliefs allow them to participate or aid such actions? At least in biblical Christianity, it is a sin to assist someone in something the Bible calls sin. So, they definitely are being consistent with biblical teaching.
But I wouldn't discriminate against people based on their race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion or politics (provided the event wasn't itself politically objectionable to me).
They are two very different things.
"Ok, but what does not have to with forcing people who have religious beliefs that are different than yours from engaging in aiding and abetting something they consider a sin against God?"
Some people's so-called religious beliefs make them believe that black and white people shouldn't be allowed to marry. Do you think they should be able to discriminate against mixed race weddings?
[quote]they definitely are being consistent with biblical teaching.
That's a lie. You know very well they eat shellfish. You know very well they wear clothing that contains a variety of fibers. That isn't being consistant with biblical teaching.
Where in the Bible does Jesus say anything against gays loving gays?
R27, no, I do not think that. In fact, I've said several times in this thread otherwise. Wtf!
But you seem to lack the ability to read, since I've said numerous times in this very thread that there is no comparison, as one scenario is based on hate and ignorance, and the other scenario is about REJECTING hate and ignorance.
[quote]You actually think that those homophobic people are involved in a religion based on the teachings attributed to Jesus.
In fact, I even questioned where in the bible does Jesus even say anything about gay marriage.
Using trolldar, you and I actually seem to both acknowledge the fact that using Jesus as an excuse for their hate is bullshit, but I guess you just want to be a dick.
Here's the deal, OP Trolldar Troll, we may both know that hate-mongering Christians are not basing their beliefs on the teachings of Jesus, but you are unable to comprehend why your scenario doesn't equate with their actions against gays.
R34, I said it doesn't equate. They are not comparable scenarios and should be handled differently.
Not wanting to do business with someone because they're a Jew is not the same as not wanting to do business with someone because they're a Nazi.
Same shit, different day, new form of KKKristian hate.
Really: i wonder who they'll pick on next after they're done with the gays? They're not really allowed to hate on Jews and blacks anymore and soon gays will be removed from their "people it's okay to hate" list, too. How sad for them.
[quote]Not wanting to do business with someone because they're a Jew is not the same as not wanting to do business with someone because they're a Nazi.
Trolldar shows the OP seems a little too interested in this topic. I likewise suspect this question is not being posed in good faith, r2.
I bet NOM is secretly hoping for such a controversy to balance out the bad press earned by the hateful actions of their adherents.
I guess it would be pretty easy for them to cook it up. Plan a big anti-gay hate fest and then try to hire all-gay caterers, florists etc. Maybe this is some sort of preliminary Psy Ops research or they're collecting quotes to use... Look what 'teh gays' said on the interwebs!!
[quote]Some people's so-called religious beliefs make them believe that black and white people shouldn't be allowed to marry. Do you think they should be able to discriminate against mixed race weddings?
You'd be hard-pressed nowadays to find someone in the United States whose religious beliefs dictate that. HOWEVER, even on the off-chance that someone did believe that, yes, they have the right to refuse to serve anyone they don't want to.
You must be very young and naive.
[quote]Trolldar shows the OP seems a little too interested in this topic. I likewise suspect this question is not being posed in good faith, [R2].
What the fuck does this posted in good faith shit mean?
Of course I'm interested. I'm gay. I just read that story about the flower shop owner who rejected a gay wedding and it pissed me off.
[quote]You must be very young and naive.
R39, actually you are the one who must be naive. I assume you are old from you comment.
Several of the Christian universities forbid interracial dating and marriage. The denominations attached to those universities also forbid interracial marriages. The truth is that the universities would have preferred to have stayed lily white, but that was no longer an option.
Some people never learn to stop posting, especially when it's an OP attempting to make a lame scenario relevant. Of course, I'm not saying that's the case with this thread but
[quote]That's a lie. You know very well they eat shellfish. You know very well they wear clothing that contains a variety of fibers. That isn't being consistant with biblical teaching.
Oh, you clever, clever person. I always wondered about that, too, but it turns out that Good Christians can both eat shellfish AND hate the gays! It's so convenient.
See, the laws in Leviticus can be divided into three categories: dietary, ceremonial, and moral. The dietary and ceremonial laws do not have to be followed today; they are specific to their time and place.
However, the "moral" laws, like the one saying that man who lies with a man is an abomination, are still absolutely valid and must be followed.
Boom, there you go. Hypocrisy-free bigotry. Hate away.
Isn't that convenient!
r36, they'll pick on neo-pagans. They'd love to burn us at the stake.
Doing just fine with Isis and Bastet
r41, it's one thing for a religious institution to have rules concerning mixed relationships, it's another for a non-religious based business to refuse service to a mixed race couple.
I'll give you a much more basic example.
The Catholic Church is legally allowed to not ordain women as priests. That doesn't mean that a non-religious based corporation can discriminate against women in hiring.
That is the reason why it is quite a different thing for a florist to refuse to take on a gay wedding than for a Christian school to make any matter of discriminatory decisions.
This of course has nothing to do with the other issue we are discussing, whether a business may refuse to cater to a political event - as opposed to a marriage - it finds objectionable. Business in the U.S. have the right to do so.
Business in the U.S. also might have the right, depending on what jurisdiction they are in to refuse service to gay people, but the question is whether that is a policy that we think should be prohibited.
Apart from all of this are practical considerations: a gay couple getting married may well not want to give their business to homophobes. But that is another issue entirely.
If you refuse service because you disagree with them, what is the difference between you and an anti-gay florist who refuses service to a gay wedding?
^ Because one is objectively wrong and one is objectively right. Not tolerating intolerance is a good thing.
[quote]If you refuse service because you disagree with them, what is the difference between you and an anti-gay florist who refuses service to a gay wedding?
Of course, the sheeple of datalounge will twist it around into an "it's okay for me to hate them but it's not okay for them to hate me because I'm a good person and they're not" argument.
R48 is right.
R48 is a fool.
Very few religious groups have rules against interracial relationships. Some religious conservatives may harbor prejudices against interracial relationships, but major organized religious groups do not. For instance, religious conservative congregations today often have lots of biracial couples and children, moreso than liberal churches. I can't think of any Christian denomination that preaches racial segregation today. Muslims, who are very conservative about sexuality, embrace racial diversity, including mixed marriages. Pentecostals, who are very conservative on sexual issues, likewise embrace biracial marriages. It is not realistic to analogize to interracial relationships.
If I new the payer was anti-gay, I would triple the prices and cut back on service and quality. Hell, I might even poison a few of the bastards. What better way to rid the planet of rot.
"If you refuse service because you disagree with them, what is the difference between you and an anti-gay florist who refuses service to a gay wedding?"
The difference is between unconstitutional discrimination and constitutional discrimination. Private citizens are allowed to discriminate against certain people for certain reasons and not against certain other people for certain other reasons. A lunch counter can refuse to serve a person for a variety of reasons, some of which make sense and some of which may not, but can not do so based on, for instance, racial intolerance. In some jurisdictions, the civil rights laws create the same right to not be discriminated against in public accommodations, employment, housing for gay people. In other jurisdictions, gay people do not have that right.
One of the many issues we are discussing here is whether gay people should have those protections. I happen to believe they should.
However, I don't happen to believe the State should force a florist into having to accept any client. Florists should be allowed to refuse to cater political events which they do not support. That, however, doesn't mean they should be allowed to discriminate against people based on race, religion, gender, ethnicity, or, in my opinion, and one would expect the opinion of a great many people on a gay website, sexual orientation.
The law distinguishes between certain protected classes of people, and upon the tests in which an act of discrimination might be justified by the person accused of it.
However, the law does not require private businesses to provide services in support of political causes they might not subscribe to.
[quote]Very few religious groups have rules against interracial relationships. Some religious conservatives may harbor prejudices against interracial relationships, but major organized religious groups do not.
Hahhaha. The primary arguments against interracial marriages back in the day WERE religious. Read the initial court decisions against the Lovings.
Society changed and then religion followed suit. Imaginary god always seems to want what his believers want, hate whomever his believers hate. Odd, that.
[quote]It is not realistic to analogize to interracial relationships.
It absolutely is. The attitudes were the same 50 years ago towards interracial couples as they are now towards gays. The analogy is a common one and an apt one.
If it's unfair to discriminate against interracial couples then it's unfair to discriminate against same-sex couples. If it's fair to discriminate against same sex couples, then it's fair to discriminate against interracial couples. You can't have it both ways.
Plenty of religions, like Mormonism and Southern Baptists, once forbade interracial marriage. They slowly caught up with the times. God changed his mind when they realized such beliefs would make them pariahs (and lose tax exempt status).
@ 47 and 49, you know what? Gay people have every right to disagree or boycot any business they want.
Shit in the cake and piss in the flowers.
[quote]GAYS: If you owned a service business, such as a flower shop or bakery, and a customer came in and asked you to provide service for his Ban Gay Marriage Fundraiser, would you?
You wouldn't have a choice but to provide service unless you were a hypocrite. We get pissed when anti-gay people don't want to provide a service for gay-related things so wouldn't it be hypocritical for us to deny service to people that are anti-gay?
That said, the way around this is simple: Let the anti-gay person know that you're gay and ask if they really want to put money into a gay person's pockets. Or you can say you'll take the money they give you for the service and give it to a gay rights charity. I'm pretty sure they won't want to do business with you after that, so you won't have to worry about providing them service.