At this point, in 2013, only the most pathetic, craven souls remain hidden there.
(I am not speaking of teens or even college students.)
Yes, OP. Adults should never be closeted. It is a disgrace and a betrayal. Period.
But confusion does exist, and it does take some people a while to sort things out. I assume that's why you're hedging with the young. It's not just the young who can be confused, though. Our society still is so screwed up about sex that it takes some people a long time to come to adequate realizations.
Me? I knew at three.
Well, to be completely honest I didn't really even begin to suspect until around 19.
I absolutely DISAGREE. Some people, especially the very religious, have a true struggle reconciling their orientation with their religious upbringing, and it's not fair to dismiss them as disgraceful cowards. Forget about coming out. Many of these people can't even admit to themselves that they're gay. Depending on one's psychological/emotional makeup, the trauma is sometimes too much to bear. So, it's not even a matter of being too scared to come out of the closet, but more about being unable to admit to yourself that you're attracted to members of the same sex. Each person has his/her own journey, and it's not right to judge them because they took a slower or different path than you. I kind of find that type of judgment disgraceful.
You made the best case for defending the closet, r3, but it's just not good enough any more.
Again, given how far gay rights has come in the past 20, 10, even 4 years, there is NO. EXCUSE.
Those who still cower in the closet as grown adults are shameful, disgraceful, loathsome, and in a very real way WORSE than straight homophobes.
On what network is "The Closet"?
OP/r4, I grew up in a relatively religious environment...modern orthodox Jewish. The "modern" often includes superficial things like yarmalkas with one's favorite sports teams on them. It took me a very long time to deal internally with the fact that I was gay. I was 25 when I had my first gay experience (some kissing and JO), after I promptly had an emotional breakdown. When I first began therapy after my breakdown, I couldn't even admit to the therapist that I was gay, but the issue was finally forced to the point where I had no choice but to be truthful.
Even now, 20 years later, even though I am out and am relatively happy (with the help of meds), there is struggle at times. Looking back, there is still a part of me who wishes I never acted on my feelings and did the "right" thing by marrying a woman, having kids, and just not dealing with my true feelings. That ideas of having a traditional family, living a sheltered life, being part of a somewhat insular community, etc are drummed into you at such an early age that it's really hard to ever completely let go of that fantasy. I know there are plenty of gay men and women who lead these lives and don't deal with their internal conflict. I mostly feel sorry for them, but a small piece of me envies them in a way.
Sorry for the long post. I just wanted to relate my experience from a religious viewpoint to demonstrate that not every gay person has the emotional maturity to deal with what they perceive be to such an overwhelming, often traumatizing issue. In the long run, maybe it's best that they don't deal with the issue.
[quote]So, it's not even a matter of being too scared to come out of the closet, but more about being unable to admit to yourself that you're attracted to members of the same sex.
Yeah, but as you more or less said yourself, those people aren't in the closet, exactly; they are just fucked up. They are not trying to hide their gayness because they don't believe that they're really gay, or at least, they're certain they can change and stop being gay.
I would guess that the OP's sentiments are directed more toward people who perfectly well understand and accept that they're gay and enjoy an active gay sex life, but cravenly pretend to be straight at work and among the general public—and sometimes even at home with their unfortunate wives and kids—in order to reap the benefits of heterosexual privilege.
yes, r7. you understand where i am coming from completely.
I know guys who come out.
Their families say they're okay with it, but then no one ever asks the gay relative about his/her life, gay marriage, or other issues. Or anything.
Sure that's sad. But not reason to stay closeted.
That is very common R9. People are "okay" with you being gay, but then never really ask you/want to hear about your love life or anything like that.
OP sorry it bothers you...I don't give a fuck myself. I deal with my life and let others have theirs.
It doesn't just bother me. It sickens me.
I could never be friends with an adult closet-case.
Yeah I just find it very sad and depressing to see a grown man still too much of a coward to admit he is gay when we live in a world when even our president is for gay marriage.
It is their choice, but just so sad to see someone so scared to make that little leap to be so much happier in life.
OP = self-righteous gay.
Live and let live.
OP what was your opinion about Anderson Cooper before he came out?
"The closet" is such a relic of the 80s and 90s.
As a 28 year old, I have never "come out of the closet." Never sat anyone down and said, "oh by the way, I love sucking cock."
I just live the way I want to live. I don't hide anything. But i also don't make a stage production out of proclaiming my sexuality.
I *hate* gay fundamentalists. theyre like religious fundamentalists. the blinders are on and they can only think one way.
OP, you live your life. let others let their lives. if their lives dont negatively affect you in the slightest manner, kindly shut the fuck up.
No. Their closeted lives do affect me. They affect all of us.
They perpetuate the worst lies of the religious rightwing that being gay is something to hide and be ashamed of.
So, no. I won't stfu.
BS R17. I'm in my twenties also but me and everyone I know still had to "come out". At some point you had to tell your family you were gay. At some point there some close friends you had to tell you were gay.
Coming out of the closet need not be a big production, but in pretty much every gay men's life they still had the expectation they were straight put on them and at some point had to accept they were gay and explain that to people who thought you were straight and who in the past you probably told you were straight.
Just a fact of reality.
OP you said you didn't discover you were gay until 19
So from 15 to 18 you thought you were hetro and attracted to girls?
And what happened at 19. Did you just one day see a guy and go WOW?
OP, I obviously don't know your background, but not everyone comes from a secular place. Many of us come from religious backgrounds, and the stakes of coming out can he high. Not just for those in total denial that I mentioned upthread, but even for those who are self-admittedly gay but who risk rejection and being forced from the only way of life they WANT TO KNOW if they come out. These aren't bad people. Many are confused about what path to take and have no support network. It's getting better, but there's a long way to go. It's just not as simple as saying "there's no excuse in this day and age," etc. It's still a complex issue and a source of tremendous conflict for many.
It is true that I come from a secular place.
I am a woman, r20.
[quote]No. Their closeted lives do affect me. They affect all of us.
Speak for yourself. As long as it has no direct impact on my life, how a stranger lives has no relevance whatsoever on me. The position you are taking is no different than the bible thumper who thinks gay marriage makes their marriage less valuable.
OP = Sexual Fluidity.
I am not the OP R20 but I was similar, didn't really realize I was gay until freshman/sophomore of college.
It is just called denial. Not that I was ever homophobic but I just didn't think that could be me. I watched a lot of straight porn and had a girlfriend in the past and just had convinced myself I liked girls in spite of looking back what was an obvious attraction to guys.
It took being honest with myself of the fact that I was clearly attracted to guys in a way I wasn't to girls. It became harder and harder to deny.
R25 when was your first date with a guy?
when was your first sexual experience with a guy?
[quote]Never sat anyone down and said, "oh by the way, I love sucking cock."
No one in the world ever came out like THAT, freak show. If you are as open about your personal life and the gender and existence of your partner/boyfriend/dates/potential dates as any heterosexual person would be, you are out. But if you subtly encourage others to believe you are interested in women, play the "pronoun game" when talking about your boyfriend, fail to correct people who obviously assume you are straight, or maintain an ironclad vow of silence about all personal topics at work and in other predominantly hetero settings--sorry, dude, you are a closet case.
[quote]No one in the world ever came out like THAT
One of my team at work did. During a dull conversation about what we were all doing on the weekend, it got to him and he announced that he was off to the sauna to get fucked senseless.
Im in my twenties, Ive never had a boyfriend before, or someone I just had sex with (I know some of you were sucking random cock at the age of 12 so I feel like I need to say that). I grew up in a very religious household, had parents who were more like business partners that worked constantly, and weren't affectionate with each other at all. My sister who is in her late twenties has never had a boyfriend either, so we both are kind of a result of an unaffectionate household.
I love the few good friends I do have, and they love me. But I feel as if I need a boyfriend to properly come out of closet. I have been through many phases of my life alone, and being an out gay man is not one I want to start by myself. Yes, I know Im putting way too much pressure on my first boyfriend (and I probably wont ever have one because Im a cold bitch!) but Ill cross those bridges then.
I said all that to say, people's reasons for being in the closet vary as much as the individuals themselves, I think.
Are you the Perez Hilton out anyone I can sort of bitter queen?
I am not talking about people still in the process of coming out in their 20s.
I am talking about, as r7 understood, people who are actively gay, mature, and closeted, often married gay men with kids. adults who know better.
people in their 30s, 40s, 50s. etc.
Their life, their business. Focus on yourself if you want to be happy
Plenty of hypocrites who stay in the closet OP, but there are also plenty who have their reasons that are valid to them and whose circumstances you may not understand.
As a flagrantly heterosexual man, I absolutely agree with OP. Sing it sister!
Besides, OP, what the hell do you care whether or not another person is out of the closet or not? That's the problem with some people, they just don't know how to stay out of other people's business.
Your children know R35, get over it.
There is no black or white OP. People are as different as their situations. Good for you for doing what's right for you, but let others find their own path in their own way and time.
I agree with R42 100%.
There's lots of black and white in this world, moral relativist at R42. Too much homophobia we have let slide over the years by our desire not to be judgemental. And the closet is homophobia made flesh.
Except in Saudi Arabia and Uganda. People should still hide there.
So the OP is dictating how others should live their lives. Isn't that what we hate about Christians?
You always forget how many closet cases there are on here until topics like this bring them out. Not trying to judge even, just saying, I've noticed there are definitely lots.
People don't initially choose the closet, they find themselves in it. They have their reasons for leaving or staying. I can't know them all.
At this point in 2013, I personally am utterly indifferent to how gay people live their lives, with the exception of those who would live a double life and do harm to gay people in one part of it, like a politician. Otherwise, people can choose their own happiness or unhappiness. It really doesn't matter to me.
With enough time, maybe it's already upon us in many ways, there won't be a closet to be in. Having a gay child will be no more unique than having a left handed child or a red haired child or any other kind of child. The closet is a creation of straight people, not gay ones. I will never blame a gay person for doing what they feel they have to do.
R23- You are wrong and spoiled. Don't you realize you have the freedom to be gay without beng fully shunned by society because people before you took the guts to come out? The only way we can earn right to be treated equally is to come out and be counted. Study the history of the gay rights movement. People had to come out to make it happen. For instance, I am an actor. For me to be able to work as an actor and be honest about who I am in my life, I needed people before me like Ellen to come out. Also, if straight politicians know openly gay people in their lives, they are less likely to legislate against them.
So YES, people coming out of the closet DOES have a direct impact on your life. YOU are a spoiled brat!
r44 is a poet.
Funny, R49, but you're the one who sounds petulant. Whether Joe Schmo down the street chooses to stay in the closet or live an open gay life has nothing to do with anyone else but him. The end.
You are wrong r51. Everyone affects everyone. Are you out of the closet? Would you have been able to live openly like you do now back in the 50s? Probably not. You have people coming out of the close to thank for the openness you can live with in your life. Every person counts. Just like every vote for President counts.
Saying everyone should be out of the closet, regardless of their situation, is unjustly imposing your will on someone else. The more some of you try to denounce right-wingers, the more you start to sound just like them.
R50 is right. I was in fact inspired to mix metaphors by our very gay poet laureate reading a poem at the Inauguration, a tradition whose persistence is mystifying. I even wrote a poem about it.
Commentary on a Poem at the Inauguration
Jar their expectation
With detailed images
Foreshadowing non sequitur
Poet laureate big crowd
From a C in English
Avoid cliché avoid cliché
*Line removed when it was discovered by Google search not to be original*
Rhythm not meter
General X and Generation X behind the curtain
Please no footnotes in a proper poem
The Bards were pundits and talking heads
They didn’t get fired for bad poems
But for rough tongue rim jobs
Pump your biceps and moisturize
Poetry is not a life not a hobby
A multilevel market scheme
Pay to publish
Choose words for how they look
In Times New Roman
Poetry a program trademarked
By WASP Ancestors dot com
The Dozens is Yo Momma Inc.
No noise but moons and lights
Txting Poems to be seen not heard
The Visual triumphant the Ritual near dead
Poetry Without Poets and Poems
And Hanging Chads
Until the Generals and Politicians kill it
[quote]Well, to be completely honest I didn't really even begin to suspect until around 19.
You didn't suspect until 19? Did you take the Shortbus? Were you, you know, "Special"?
It means he thought those wet dreams about guys that were in his head were put there by predatory homosexuals spying on him at night when he masturbated extra loud hoping they would. In other words, that it came from without, and not within.
I think the closet is destructive to the entire community. I think if you're still in the closet and you can financially support yourself, you're a big chicken.
What I really don't understand is the people who say they knew they were gay at 3 years old or the people who are confused about being gay at any point after puberty. You know what gets your cock hard, no matter how much you lie to yourself.
It is always odd for me when people ask are you "out" to your family?
I always think well yes I've told them but do they believe it? No.
[quote] but there are also plenty who have their reasons that are valid to them and whose circumstances you may not understand.
go become a hermit then
oh please r59...what if you live in Iraq or somewhere like that....I wouldn't really recommend being out and proud
R58 is very butch.
OP, Blacks who could "pass" for White were once criticized for making an unpopular decision, as were Jews and others who Anglicized their names. Can you imagine being denied housing, employment, career advancement, family support (and money), and facing constant verbal abuse and harassment from everyone you meet? Then you cannot criticize another's choices, until discrimination against everyone ends everywhere.
Everybody over 40 doesn't have to imagine it because they lived it R62, precisely because others didn't come out.
I don't give a fuck if someone is straight, why should I make them give a fuck that I am gay. Educate yourself.
You're the one who is uneducated R64. We didn't politicize the personal, THEY DID.
lord r65.....give it a rest...try another thread for a while
"What about Iraq or Uganda?"
Really? Welcome, our Iraqi and Ugandan brothers and sisters. Oh, wait, you're posting from the U.S.? Then you're a coward.
I would definitely out a public figure who was against us. And if I heard some closet case say anything remotely anti-gay, I would have no problem outing them either. If they're doing no active harm--I wouldn't want to be around them, but I'd leave it alone. HOWEVER, I would not perpetuate their lie or cover for them.
Being out is hard? No shit. Welcome to the real world where shit happens. You're not my brother or sister if you're a closet case. You are part of the problem. Closet cases are a drain on the gay community. Yes, I make allowances for people who would be slaughtered or jailed for being gay. Yes, I make an allowance for young people. Coming out is still a process.
But if you're closeted and know you're gay, you've made a decision to reject other gay people, except when you're using us.
[quote]You're not my brother or sister if you're a closet case.
That presumes anybody would want to be your brother or sister.
I don't actually disagree with your position, but you rant like an angry windbag and they, frankly, are as dull a person as person can be.
It's 2013. Things have changed and will continue to do so. You talk as if it's thirty years ago.
"That presumes anybody would want to be your brother or sister."
My point is, closet cases often presume they deserve support from us when they give none in return.
"I don't actually disagree with your position, but you rant like an angry windbag and they, frankly, are as dull a person as person can be."
So, you're on my side, but it's still very important for you to point out how much you don't like me and how much better than me you are. Because this is really all about how much more fabulous you are that mere mortals.
"It's 2013. Things have changed and will continue to do so. You talk as if it's thirty years ago."
Closet cases are still around and that's what the discussion is about. Did the "brother and sister" bit vex you in some way? Feeling bitter about your place or lack thereof in the gay community?
R68, you are a bloviating, judgemental piece of shit. I know a couple of gay people (a woman and a man, to be exact) who are not out for different reasons. They are also good people, and are no harm to our community. Their lives and how they choose to live them have no effect on me. As someone who IS out, I make no judgements on their decisions, and they will come out when and IF they are ready. Fuck you and your "come out or else" stance. Who the fuck are you?
Boo hoo, poor you, r71.
LOL should've known. R72 etc = Troll alert!
Not poor me--poor YOU, R72. You're no better than the gay bashers out there.
Uganda is carry. I saw that movie where Forrest Whitaker played Edye Gorme.
r71 = r73 = whiny bitch closeted troll alert! I should have known.
LOL! Smiley face. Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, etc.
Boom! The shock of each moment of still being alive.
People who feel how strangers live their life and insist it impacts them personally have no life of their own. I feel sad for them.
R49 The only spoiled brat I see here are the people who want to tell strangers how to live their life just so they can get some kind of validation.
nothing to do with personal validation from strangers, and everything to do with reality, honesty and the current state of gay rights in this country.
R16, in his personal life Anderson was never in the closet by his own admission. He was always out and proud, he just did not feel the need to publicize it.
Does the current state of gay rights in this country include the belief that how a person chooses to live their private life is their business and their business alone?
How is your position that all gay people must come out any different from the fundies position that all gay people should stay in the closet?
If you can't see the difference, I truly feel sorry for you, r83.
oh and p.s.
I am not saying all gay people "MUST" come out.
Just that I will not tolerate a closet-case in MY life. I'm done with that. You're living a lie? You're not my friend.
I dont see the difference R84. Why dont you answer the question? Here is your chance to enlighten someone. Why are you so reluctant to do that?
I already explained it. I did NOT say all gay people "MUST" come out, even though you said I did.
I said I no longer offer closet-cases my respect or my friendship. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
Am I going around OUTING people? No.
Am I saying closet cases are contemptible pathetic people? Yes.
the closet is for sissies
The notion that how other people live doesn't affect you is a non-starter. Obviously, it affects you. In a democracy, moreover, it is a personal responsibility to participate in the public sphere, to represent and promote your viewpoint. Not to do so is corrupt and an abdication of citizenship. Morally indefensible, in a word.
Logically of course, sexuality is a social phenomenon so to pretend it is strictly an individual matter is to deny the social essence of the thing. It is to say the sexuality is merely a matter of masturbation, and therefore any regulation of sexuality is by definition both irrelevant and ridiculous. It is to accept a social status quo incompatible with human rights.
R87 I cant help but notice that you refuse to answer the questions asked. You make a claim, but when asked to clarify or expand on it, you refuse to do so. That says a real lot.
What questions are these? To paraphrase Jim Carroll, when they don't have anything to argue, they part their lips for what's negative, and accuse people of not answering questions that were irrelevant or that they never asked.
dude!! i am not advocating that people MUST come out of the closet. That's your answer!
I am judging them harshly and choosing to not associate with them. Get it?
R92/OP - Earlier you stated you would not be friends with someone who is "living a lie." Where do you draw the line? If someone colours their hair are they living a lie? What if someone wears a wig? What if they go to a job they hate everyday? If they are nice to someone they really don't care for? Would love to understand how you set your criteria.
-- none of your examples would cause me to "unfriend" a person, r93.
Try harder next time.
Hiding in the closet, as a grown adult who knows they are gay, is hardly a "white lie."
You are being silly.
I'm not in favor of teens coming out but sometimes they are just out and no getting around it.
I think if older gay people would come out, then everyone would see, that they have a good friend or relative who is gay. I think it could make a change in the publics perception of gay people.
So OP, up until you were 19, you were technically in the closet.
You assume that when you knew you came out. Well what bell went off at 19? The same occurs for many well into adulthood- many even acting on their homosexuality while living a heterosexual cover or in the closet.
I agree, those who lead very conscious double lives can be pretty awful- I have no friends like that either.
But I think you are more or less painting a black and white picture. Sure coming out aids the cause of equal rights etc. But for some coming out is tied up with knowing who you really are- just like you at 18 and then 19.
I call bullshit on all these who claim they were confused or misled by their religious upbringing. In the contemporary US nobody, not even the Dominion Wackiness crowd, has never been exposed to positive gay role models, sexually explicit material, or the ideology of individualism and self-reliance which they claim was so missing in their lives. The "religious" dog. won't. hunt.
I think the fundamental right of privacy comes first.
As adverse as I am to those in the closet, it is their life, and their choice.
I don't expect or demand people with mental illness, alcoholism, financial issues or any other "condition" with a social stigma to announce this to the world either.
I also have much more respect for a closet gay who votes Democratic than some out and loud Cabbie or other gay asshole who votes to deny gay rights in order preserve his dollar or to otherwise suck up to the establishment.
of course I was in the closet when I first started to figure out that I was gay. Everyone is!
And yes, it was in college, when I was already almost 20. BUT.
I am not talking about those years when the gay person is figuring it all out/ coming to terms with the reality of their sexual orientation.
I am talking about those years WELL AFTER that, when the gay person knows full-well that he/she is gay; when said person is no longer young, nor beholden to parents for money or approval.
The ones who knowingly 'closet' (to use it as a verb) simply because they don't want to face rejection. Particularly heinous are those who deceive other people, marry them and rob them of the chance to have 'true love' themselves.
I have much more understanding and compassion for those who did this in the 'old days.' I am speaking of people who would do this in 2013.
FUCK YOU, OP. the closet doesn't matter to you since no one likes you anyway.
[quote]Just that I will not tolerate a closet-case in MY life. I'm done with that. You're living a lie? You're not my friend.
Who really cares? You don't seem to me to be friend material anyway (in Layman's terms, you seem like a real asshole).
"OUT" Truth Fairy
If only you had stayed in the closet OP. So sanctimonious and judgemental you could be in line as for the next papacy.
OP, have you contacted Ryan Seacrest, Kevin Spacey, and John Travolta to encourage them to set an example?
[quote]The ones who knowingly 'closet' (to use it as a verb) simply because they don't want to face rejection.
Possibly one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard. Love! Valour! Compassion! Indeed!
OP is a flaming fag! he has no choice but to be "out" fuck you
Nothing quite like a ipsa dixit from an anonymous source.
OP just buries himself more and more the longer this thread gets.
"No excuses," OP? Who the fuck are you to judge anyone else, let alone everyone else?
I am so sick and tired of people who tell other people how to live their lives. OP is insufferable to the nth degree.
I'm out of the closet, but I wouldn't want to be friends with that asshole.
OP, I'm so glad you started this thread because I've been thinking about this lately. I am SO sick of all these pussy closet cases who hide in the closet while the rest of us who have the guts to be out have to do all the fighting for equal rights. Not only that, EVERY person that is openly gay is one more person to show straights that we're not going anywhere.
Like you said, I understand being in the closet as a teenager or even in year early 20's, but after 25, there's no excuse for still being in the closet. Get some fucking guts and stop being a fucking wimp and stop hiding who you are.
I'm also glad OP started this topic because all of the closet sympathizers responding are obvious closet cases that show how many fucking wimps there really are in the world.
r109 is an annoying flamer who probably repels straights more tHAN anyone
I think R109 is HILARIOUS!!!
Thanks for the laughs!
You're fighting a losing battle, OP. DL = Closet Case Central.
Any online grouping of gay people=closet case central.
The sad truth is even here in 2013 many, many gay men still hide their sexuality. Those are the breaks.
R110 proves my point! LOL!
I bet you're one of those closet cases who tries to talk in a deep, monotone voice and tries to be careful not to use to much expression or mannerisms so that the gay doesn't slip out. Sad thing is, everyone already knows and behind your back everyone is wondering why you don't just come out!
r114, I am a femme les who ONLY likes masculine normal gay men
And I know MANY naturally masculine gay men who LOATHE fla mers
This thread was doomed from the start.
As long as someone doesn't oppose equality for openly gay people, I don't give two shits what they do in their personal lives. Closet or no, that's their business. It's only when someone is closeted and also opposes rights for openly gay people that the word "coward" comes into play imho.
[quote]I am a femme les who ONLY likes masculine normal gay men
Who gives a shit what you like you dumb dyke? Why are you worried about what gay men are doing?
R9 has it exactly right. You become invisible.
Some people don't need the closet and some still do, because they have a fucked up life where they feel the need for other people's approval or believe it's necessary to spend so much money for the closet game for career and public image purposes.
Bingo! R121 has it right. People in the closet have self-hate issues and are obsessed with what others think of them.
closeted celebs make me sick.
You have the words to change a nation but you choose to stay silent come to mind.
No excuses. r108.
And that's HERself, you ignorant, reading comprehension dunce.
I totally agree with you, OP. No tolerance for gay closeted people unless they live in a dangerous situation/country or are young. But when you're in your 30s and still hide you're just being dishonest.
I am 40, and totally "out" with my friends. My family is very conservative and they do not want to hear about it. I know that they know I am gay, but it is not discussed. I had a horrible, horrible experience with a job and being out back in the mid-'90s and swore I would never be out at work again. I am a very private person and I do not feel the need to share every intimate detail of my life with every person I meet. The people who need to know KNOW, the people who don't need to know DON'T.
In 38 states you can be fired for being gay. There are still hundreds of hate crimes per year. Teens are still bullied, thrown out of homes and committing suicide.
OP, just because you are safe in your world doesn't mean the rest of the country is right there with you.
R127 I am exactly the same. I would never be out at work. Homophobia is rampant in my industry and I just do not discuss my private life. I am close to my parents, but when I was around twelve years old I had a cousin that came out as gay, and it was a huge deal in the family.
About that situation, my dad said, "If any of my kids turned out gay, I wouldn't want to know about it. Jesus Christ, why do they have to tell us who they have sex with? They should just keep it to themselves." My mom completely agreed with him. So, at age 47, I have never discussed my sex life with them. My close friends and acquaintances are the only ones I came out to.
[quote]Jesus Christ, why do they have to tell us who they have sex with? They should just keep it to themselves
While I can totally sympathize with your situation, R129, your father's attitude is a perfect example of why we should come out to our loved ones. Your father has the mistaken impression that being gay is just about with whom we are having sex. I'm sure he would want to know who his straight children are dating/marrying, and he should realize that we love and are loved, too.
Sorry Tim, but chances are your employer knows about what happened at your job in the mid 90s, so all your being "in" has done has given them the option of discriminating against you without your being able to call them on it. It may still be worth it to be closeted, of course, you may live in Mississippi. But think about it.
Well smell you!
The thing with closet cases is they never help out the LGBT community. I never see closeted gay guys working at an LGBT homeless shelter or HIV/AIDS unit. I never see any kind of philanthropy performed by closeted gay men towards the gay community. Everybody there, where I live, is out.
Closeted gay men are more interested in how one "acts" as a gay person than actually working to better the gay community as a whole.
Out gays have a LOT of HATE.
They HATE that they're too flaming to ever pass for straight.
They HATE the bitter truth that if you can't act straight... you can't act.
But still they dream that they'll get their big break someday while HATING on everyone who does make it.
BTW, Table 7 would like their check now.
[quote]I never see closeted gay guys working at an LGBT homeless shelter or HIV/AIDS unit.
Sweetie I'm as out as you can be, even march in my local pride parade every June.
You'll never catch me doing the things you mention.
I'd like to congratulate OP on taking this daring position.
[quote]You'll never catch me doing the things you mention.
Your loss. Sweetie.
I stay in the closet for the sake of my wife and children.
It is imperitive that EVERY gay man come out. It's our civic duty. I have no respect for any gay man or woman still hiding in the closet.
[quote]I never see any kind of philanthropy performed by closeted gay men towards the gay community. Everybody there, where I live, is out.
Most gay men don't do shit for philanthropy. I can't name a single gay friend who's doing the charitable scene. I can't name a single straight friend, either. We write cheques from time to time, but realistically most people don't have the time or inclination to roll up their sleeves.
I don't romanticize the 'gay community.' I don't feel any great affinity with the concept of the gay community. I am gay, I have my gay friends, we live our lives and see what happens. I think that's probably true of most.
To be honest, most of the active people in the gay community are worth their weight in gold because they do make a difference, cumulatively, but individually, like any activist type, they can be extremely tedious one notes. And many are quite stupid. I had a friend who's got so much money he doesn't work, so he does volunteer a lot and served for three years as treasurer of our city PRIDE organization. He's very unassuming, very friendly. He couldn't wait to ditch that gig.
I'm out in life but not at work. No way. Too much insidious homophobia in my industry... not direct, but I fear it's there and I'm not going to gamble. No way am I jeopardizing my bonus. The gay community isn't going to feed me in retirement. I would never deny it if asked at work and I've no doubt they assume. Classic don't ask, don't tell I guess. Some will call it cowardice, but I wonder what they'd do if they were making big bucks. Many of you will obviously call it pragmatic. Doesn't trouble me in the least, but it will give many of you something to flame.
What an arrogant piece of shit R141 is. I have always done charitable work, including being in charge of fundraising for a soup kitchen run by eight churches.
You've definitely got the Christian humility and gentleness down pat, R143.
That's my experience. I write my share of checks to good causes.
I didn't say I was a Christian. I'm not.
I'm surprised. You've got the harshness down.
R142, you're not out because you do not want people to know that you are gay. You can call that a flame if you want, but that's the beginning and the end of it. You can tell yourself whatever story you want about bonuses and all the poor starving gay oldsters you see digging in the trash because they dared to come out, but ultimately--you prefer people think you straight. Ironically, they likely don't.
I am out with my family and friends. I am not out at work because I am there for my paycheck only. Outside of work, I do not associate with my co-workers. I share workspace with them for nine hours a day, I don't swap spit (or life stories) with them.
I know, with 100% certainty, that I would never have received the raises or promotions that I have gotten over the years if I had declared my sexuality at work. It is still not illegal to discriminate against us. The few openly gay guys in the office never get promotions, no matter how hard they work. They are somewhat "tolerated" but to management they are just the "little f-gs".
If I had declared my sexuality at work when I first started there in 1998, I would still be languishing out "on the floor" with the middle-aged ladies and the two hard-working, under-appreciated gay guys. Not to mention that I would be living paycheck-to-paycheck making $12.50 an hour. I know many of you feel that I should have done "the right thing" and just dealt with the small salary and lack of upward movement because standing for your principles is the important thing.
Note: I have promoted both hard-working gay men. I think I can do more for them covertly.
I live alone and pay all my bills myself. I could not live on $12.50 per hour. I would be living under a fucking bridge or in a flea-bag motel. For the salary I presently make, I can handle some goofy hetero guy or some religious right-wing lady boss not knowing "who I am".
When it is no longer legal for us to be discriminated against or fired for being gay, I will proudly stand in front of the entire staff and declare who I am.
That's the way it is
R148 has it right.
as SOON as you come out of the closet, the gays turn on you. gay people are not nice to other gay people!!! FUCK THEM
Sometimes they're not nice to anyone, R150.
[quote]I can't name a single gay friend who's doing the charitable scene.
Then you and your friends are lazy and self-involved.
R148, they likely know for one thing; and for another as you continue to age without marrying or talking about a girlfriend time is outing you with no effort on your part.
R153 Exactly. These closet cases think they've got everyone fooled, but except for the truly naive, I'm sure they've put together two and two.
I like the bullshit about how out people are out because they are seeking validation when in reality closeted people are in the closet because they want the homophobes' approval.
R153 They actually have the idea that I'm just "playing the field" with the ladies. That's their assumption, and not based on anything I have told them or led them to believe. Like I said, I don't discuss my personal life at work. The married straight guys all talk about how much they envy me for being wild, single and free (and they envy the amount of "strange pussy" I am getting on a regular basis. LOL). I don't know why they think that, but I don't encourage it. I just laugh it off and walk on.
R154 Your comment just popped up as I was about to save my post. I am not a closet case. Like I said, my family, friends, and people that have meaning in my life know who I am. If, someday, the whole "house of cards" comes crumbling down, I will deal with the consequences. But, I am not going to purposely sabotage my life and go back to making shit wages just so people at work know that there's "another one of them" on the floor.
Is it just me or does it seem more and more people are going back in the closet?
I think things ARE getting better. Younger gay men are going to change the world in wonderful ways. I'm 47 and I entered college just as the AIDS media frenzy started. I had been out of the closet in high school and had very few problems. This was in the years 1979-1983. When I went to college in the fall of '83, it was a different world. AIDS hysteria had hit the media (full front cover of Newsweek) and homophobia ran rampant.
Even people who had been "tolerant" (I hate that word) were now full-fledged bigots spouting ignorance and hatred. It was okay to hate us because GOD himself was punishing us for our "SIN". It was sickening. I went back into the closet because idiots assumed that every gay man was infected and would soon feel the wrath of God for their sins. I was only open about my sexuality with my few (also closeted) gay buddies. It was a difficult time.
I think it's wonderful that so many younger gay men are out and are seemingly living very satisfying lives. It was difficult for those of us that were young during the early years of AIDS. The amount of bigotry, fear and hate was staggering. I still remember the stinging words from family members, "friends", and professors back then. Luckily, by the mid/late 90s things started to get better... slowly.
In 1991, I officially came out. I own my own business so I don't have to worry about being fired or discriminated against. I can sympathize with those who have to be closeted in their professional lives. I have seen that bigotry firsthand and sometimes the closet is necessary.
Personally I am out, but I understand we all have different personal situations. As we are preaching tolerance to the general public, we should practice what we preach to tolerate those who, for whatever reason, remain in the closet.
If some one asks me about my orientation at work, I will tell them I am gay. But I don't advertise what I do in my bedroom.
EVERY GAY MAN AND WOMAN MUST COME OUT. It is imperitive. I would rather live in a ditch and make minimum wage for the rest of my life than lie about myself. If being open and honest means I will have to shovel fries at McDonald's for my entire life so be it. Fuck anybody who wants me to lie about who I am. We must stand and be counted. Stand for something or fall for anything.
R161 I don't know what that is, but I NEVER open anything with a .ru at the end. It's usually a virus or malware. I'll never know.
Conisder yourself lucky you can't see it, R162.
r160 is a flaming queen!!! You have no choice but to be out!!! fag!!!
I know a lot of you can't bear this, but the only definition of out that matters to me is my own. Whether I shriek it from the rooftops or keep it entirely to myself, I'm the only one who matters. More and more the only definition of gay that counts is the definition we set for ourselves. I recognize some of you relics, and some of you lemmings, can't handle that, but you're as welcome to your caftans and earrings as anybody else is to what you'd call their closets.
Suck it, bitches, it's 2013!
[quote]I would rather live in a ditch and make minimum wage for the rest of my life than lie about myself.
I would rather not.
I'm out because I'm happy with myself. OP is out but unhappy, seems forever unhappy with himself, so threatening others to follow him is the only thing that can make him feel good because he secretly can't tolerate with himself for being gay.
Life is about survival and is cruel for all orientations. Don't be such a baby.
Before responding, I'd prefer to hear OP read his statement aloud.
OP, I obviously don't know your background, but not everyone comes from a secular place. Many of us come from religious backgrounds, and the stakes of coming out can he high.[quote[
Just as high as when blacks came out of the closet before slavery was aboilshed, or when women came out of the closet before feminism.
Gay rights is *just like civil rights*, so I can understand the fear of not conforming. It's the same reason that, even today, many blacks and women continue to live as white men.
Whether I shriek it from the rooftops or keep it entirely to myself, I'm the only one who matters.[quote]
The str8 guy in the locker room who used to be oblivious
"As we are preaching tolerance to the general public, we should practice what we preach to tolerate those who, for whatever reason, remain in the closet."
Yes, we should always be tolerant towards those who reject us and side with our opressors.
Rolling my eyes at your bullshit
"shit wages" = Not American.
I think many of the DL closet-cases are posting from other countries. So, on some level they don't count.
What's funny is that if your GayDar is working, it's pretty easy to figure out who is gay. True closeting requires active dishonesty.
Most gay men who simply don't advertise the fact directly do so indirectly: estrogen overload in thei rbehavior, absence of women in their lives, plus FEEDBACK: an absence of women in the lives of the MEN they are always surroudned by, with all men in the feedback loop eschewing what would be normal behavior of straight men attempting to attract women.
Call them, there's always a guy over. Hang out, more guys. Do anything, more guys. Women just aren't present. Some have fag-hags but even then it's still obvious. Direct behavior makes it even more obvious. Telltale signs are quasi-flirtatious behavior, excessive complimenting and tolerance not normal from a male friend, etc. Kind of like how a woman realizes a male friend wants more.
Having been targeted in this fashion by several closet cases, including a few who used sports and bully8ing as an excuse to make physical contact with me, that is the root of why I don't think highly of the closet. I also think that the closet has no place for anyone who insists that gay rights and civil civil rights are the same thing, because blacks and women have nowhere to hide; gays do.
Datalounge is irrelevant. Carry on with your rant, OP. In DL, no one can hear you scream.
The word "I would" gives you away.
Come back when you can say "I HAVE", otherwise you are merely shouting on the internet.
Gosh, OP, the thanks of a grateful nation are yours.
Get over yourself.
R156, people don't even believe Tom Cruise is just playing the field with the ladies--why would they believe that of you? And I love these elaborate scenarios where you're hiding nothing, (covertly) helping the two poor flamers, are completely out to the entire world except for 26 people in a building where you work who are somehow hermetically sealed from the rest of the universe--and insist that this is all because there is no federal law that will not prevent right-wing ladies (who we all know run corporate America) from firing you.
Just stop. We know the story you've told yourself, and that you will die telling it. It doesn't hurt me. Those right-wing ladies are your job probably know you better than you know yourself. And they have the balls to come to work and live their beliefs, which may be why there are laws protecting them--laws don't rise from the ether like Easter candy for good boys. Why should a law exist to protect someone who won't even acknowledge that he exists and thus needs protection? You sound ridiculous.
Do those of you in the closet fail to speak up when someone disparages gay people?
Because then, it really isn't all about *you*.
You know they do.
[quote]So the OP is dictating how others should live their lives.
Being sickened by flagrant dishonesty, and speaking out for authentic honesty is hardly "dictating how others live their lives"!
Some of you kooky moral relativists really don't have the courage to have ANY beliefs (i.e. standards) at all! Too terrified to be thought of as "judgmental", which is the teeniest, tiniest virtue ever imagined. Grow up and grow a pair all of you!
start with outing the biggest rumoured queen who is RUINING, wreaking havoc with our very gov't!
The princesa Miss Lindsey Graham.
Disgusting, vile creature.
Public school teacher here, for 24 years, in a very red state. As others have noted, there are absolutely no employment protections for many of us -- and even though things are much better [and improving rapidly], there's still a stigma about working with youth/adolescents. I'm out to close colleagues, but struggle with the idea of much more visibility. One rotten parent, administrator, and/or student could really jeopardize my chosen career.
Then you don't really qualify as a "closet-case".
You don't lie to your family or friends and even your coworkers know.
I am not unreasonable.
I guess I should amend my snarky "no excuses" to exclude people in your situation, r183.
Is Keanu in the closet, or just in the glass closet?
stereotypical gays keep normal acting gays in the closet
People that are afraid to come out are afraid of losing something that doesn't really exist.
If someone suddenly "unfriends" you when they find out you're gay...
...what's the loss?
They were never really your friend to begin with.
I find it most damaging when homosexuals -- closeted or not -- work against the LGBT community politically. That's what should not be tolerated.
[quote]stereotypical gays keep normal acting gays in the closet
What a pathetic horseshit excuse. Why don't you "normal" acting gays come out and show us how a "normal" gay acts? Oh, that's right - you won't come out simply because you're a pussy.
I agree with R160. I came out at 22 and I can't imagine going back to the days before of hiding who I was. No way is all that misery worth it. If someone doesn't like me for being gay, fuck them!
R171 I beg to differ with you. I posted that "shit wages" statement and I am very much American. I was born and raised right here in the U.S., thank you very much. That is all!
"stereotypical gays keep normal acting gays in the closet"
I've been on DL for about 12 years, and that is, by far, the most pathetic thing I've seen posted here.
Good job, R186.
[quote]I find it most damaging when homosexuals -- closeted or not -- work against the LGBT community politically. That's what should not be tolerated.
I think this one is my pet hate too. Rich, powerful money men and women in entertainment and sports who are gay, working to keep gay and bi clients locked in the closet via a daily barrage of PR articles to het away the gay is just disgusting to me.
I don't know how these people can sleep. All it takes is for one person to be repped well by a confident sort who won't be bullied and it would have a knock-on effect.
There are African-Americans who "pass" for White.
Other Blacks know their story, don't "out" them, but feel about them the same way the OP feels about closeted gays - Unless - Unless - they use their incognito status to make life better for those against whom society discriminates.
People who "pass" for white usually are.
IOW, they have more European ancestry than African. But I know what you're saying--denying any mixed heritage or denying any black heritage at all.
It's just a stickler point for me.
If they "pass" for white, THEY ARE WHITE. Good grief is this 2013 or 1813? Our President is black, because he's black. Pass for white? What are you even talking about?
The no employment protection thing is a little disingenuous. Are you suggesting that laws some how have any real world effect on whether or not someone is discriminated against in employment, housing, or anything else? They don't. They only prevent OPEN discrimination. If you look at the average corporation most of the blacks and women are still working at the lowest levels, just as they were in '60s, and almost everyone at the senior levels is a white man, just as it was inthe '60s. Laws prohibiting discrimination against these groups haven't stopped discrimination; they've only stopped help wanted ads that say "no colored need apply" or "men only."
The bottom line is you either come out and live with the consequences because that's who you are, or you don't. The pretense that a discrimination law is the only thing stopping you from being honest about yourself is just that: a pretense.
Some of you need to get out of your bubble. I live in a racially diverse neighborhood. A few of my neighbors, who are very light skinned, have biological parents who are noticeably darker.
Generally the children identify as African-American (as does the President), but a couple have gone off to college or elsewhere and pretended otherwise.
My point was not to start a discussion of race, but rather to point out that this issue of community ambivalence toward those who hide ("pass," "closet," call it what you will) is not unique to ours.
Your point is well-made, r200.
But someone like r183 not being out to his/her high school or elementary (whatever the case may be) students (but being out to friends and family) I can understand.
The truth is we CAN be fired for being gay in most states.
I still have no tolerance for closet-cases in my life, but I don't consider a teacher who keeps their private life as private as they can to be in that loathsome, cowering category (so long as they don't lie to their parents, siblings, friends).
Very few masculine bisexual and gay men ever openly identify as such. The guys who are in the closet are noticeably much more masculine than open gays. That is just the way it is.
That's true, R203. When you're noticeably feminine, you cannot help but be out of the closet. I am a straight acting gay man, and have had people tell me that they didn't believe it when I told them I was gay, so if I wanted to be in the closet, I could.
same with feminine gay and bi women :)
In 1996 Bill Clinton at an Empire State Oride dinner urged everyone to come out and live openly because it was (is) the best antidote to homophobia. Still is. But it is not always easy in some places in the US, even in 2013. Of course I avoid those states and communities.
The OP makes a good point- but I can assure you that Clinton was not as nasty about his advise and plea as the OP is-
R187 = Wisdom.
Nasty is as nasty does, making the kinds of closet cases I am talking about much nastier than me.
i wouldn't agree on outing a private citizen thus perhaps ruining his life. It's his time.
BUT...those fuckwads that can affect change and are lying about themselves and preventing positive change? That's where I have the issue.
OUT THE QUEEN LINDSEY GRAHAM!
OP, maybe you should mind your own business, and work on your anger issues.
Maybe. And then again, maybe not.
[quote]"The closet" is such a relic of the 80s and 90s.
Are you aware that the world even existed before 1980?
The closet has existed as long as homophobia has existed, which is as long as homosexuality has existed, which is forever. It is not a "relic" since it still exists in large numbers today, nor is it associated with a specific decade.
Many more same-sex oriented people are "closeted" than open. It will likely remain that way for at least the rest of this century.
If anything, the days of the closet are coming to an end faster than any one of us could have predicted 5, 10, 15 years ago.
R212 doesn't see the irony of telling OP to work on his issues at the same time he tells him to mind his own business.
Closet defenders are always hypocrites.
"I am a straight acting gay man, and have had people tell me that they didn't believe it when I told them I was gay, so if I wanted to be in the closet"
If I had a dime for every time I heard some delusional queen say this shit, I'd be a very wealthy man.
Some people will never change with the times... regardless if things are better or not. In some states and communities its still dark ages for people to open up about homosexuality.
[quote]I think the closet is destructive to the entire community. I think if you're still in the closet and you can financially support yourself, you're a big chicken.
Amen, brother. The key to winning hearts and minds in favor of full equality is visibility. It's much easier to hate a class of people when everything you know of them is coming from homophobic preachers, parents and peers. It's much harder to hate when you realize that your helpful co-worker, good neighbor or beloved cousin is gay. I'm not saying everyone who knows a gay person is automatically supportive, but when a person raised in an ignorant bubble is exposed to real life gay people, their willingness to hate and believe falsehoods about us is more likely to diminish.
Out gay people are at the vanguard of equality. They are on the front lines, showing the world that we really are just like them: co-workers, friends, relations and neighbors who work for a living, pay taxes, do good for others, seek love and companionship and, increasingly, are parents struggling to raise kids in a troubled world. What we want is what everyone wants: the freedom to live our lives as we were meant to, whatever that means individually.
I think closet cases (the adult kind who actively put up a front, claiming their heterosexual privilege while indulging their gay pleasure on the side) are our own worst enemies.
More and more people are going back into the closet!! Society does not like gays!!
[quote]Closet defenders are always hypocrites.
Not only that, but they are always so angry (as you can tell by the ones in this thread). They're angry because they know they have no guts.
Where the hell did R221 stumble in from?
"More and more people" are not "going back into the closet". That is an absurd fabrication. And polls show a growing majority support full equal rights for gay people, including the right to marry.
You are a moron, R221.
Very well said, R220.
R221 = freeper
Don't pay him any attention.
Closet-dwellers seem desperate to stay hidden in the dark and thus want to pretend that there are more of them than there really are.
R221 is R106, the supposedly "femme lesbian". Trolldar it and read the last 100 or so replies. Quite a prolific troll.
R221 is stark raving mad.
LGBT people and especially straight "supporters" overestimate how much acceptance there is in 2013. Dramatically overestimate.
Society is still homophobic, coming out is still a very difficult thing to do, and although it does make your life happier, it also adds an extra layer of difficulty when you're out. Unless you're living in a Manhattan or San Fran and even then, we're still a minority.
Some gays need a major reality check. Hell, looks likely Illinois won't pass marriage equality which would be the next state after Wyoming, Rhode Island, Hawaii. We're not even a protected class federally. We've come a long way but we have a LONG way to go to have true acceptance.
OP google Peter Marc Jacobson.
Your point, Francis?
He's just a run of the mill ex-closet case.
So everyone who is strongly against the closet is all right defining themselves primarily by their sexuality? The most significant thing about who you are is who you are attracted to fucking? Is that the first and most important thing anyone who meets you should know about you?
If you were in a situation and about the die surrounded by others you would turn to the person next to you (a stranger) and say "By the way, I'm gay if you hadn't already figured that out."?
R235, you are a jackass. Who said its the first thing they tell people? Why do you reduce someone's social and family life to "who [sic] you are attracted to fucking"?
Your entire second paragraph is too stupid to comment on further.
I'm happily partnered and see no reason to hide that. Straight people certainly don't hide their relationships, or reduce them to inappropriate sexual language. I'm also involved in some gay-related professional groups and see no reason to hide that either. None of this is "the first thing I tell people"; like most normal folk I start with my name and let the conversation progress naturally. But questions about relationships ("Are you married? Do you have kids? Are you bringing a guest to the Christmas party?") are common when interacting with others. Hiding those aspects of your life, when a straight person in the same situation would never dream of lying, shows that you are cowardly and ashamed of yourself.
Notice the closet cases sound very angry and a bit hysterical, even paranoid.
It's not a healthy way to live your life.
r235 simply does not get it.
Can someone explain the mindset of a r235?
The opposite of cowering in the closet & lying about yourself to people is NOT blurting out intimate details of your sexual exploits to every stranger you encounter.
Why is that so hard to grasp for some closet-defenders?
Their kneejerk phrase is often "shouting it from the rooftops" as if THAT'S what being openly gay is.
Idiots and damaged freaks, imo.
People in the closet always come up with rationalizations about why they have to be in the closet and why it is okay. Yes it sounds silly to those of us who are out now, but we are we all there once.
closet-cases are terrible bores.
gays that are out generally are of the flaming or butch (female) variety. The rest of us who can pass, don't feel the need to make our sexual orientation top story !
R242, your strident self-loathing, obsession with normative gender roles and over-use if exclamation points makes it obvious that you're the same troll who has been infesting this thread for days. You're quite fixated on this topic. Defensive, even.
Trolldar reveals you to be R106, R150 and R221, and many more. Your need to bash out gay people and those who don't conform to traditional gender roles reveals you to be a hateful little lunatic and a poor excuse for a human being. Give it a rest if you don't want to embarrass yourself further. You're like a broken record.
...and obviously a broken human being as well.
I wonder if he let John McCain taste his nasty ass?
The queen of the closet: Miss Lindsey Graham.
No, dipshit, I'm not Richard Simmons. I'm actually very straight-appearing and almost always pass regardless. I've had gay men I know through work or neighborhood associations drop their jaws when we bump into each other in a gay bar. One co-worker loudly screamed "YOU'RE gay???" I don't think this is anything notable or brag-worthy, but I do want to point out you've made an ass of yourself, yet again.
Your assumption that only "obvious" gay people would disagree with your rancid posts shows that you know very few openly gay people.
PS: research "trolldar". The thread lights up yellow when we click on your many posts.
r248, LMAO PLEASE!! i could care less how many times I have posted on this thread you diseased faggot!!!
And there you go again. I also notice you have no response to anything I actually wrote. Very telling. You're just an ignorant gasbag.
You are a hateful (and quite stupid) troll. You need to be banned, you don't belong here. This is a website for gay people, not homophobes and hate-mongerers.
Again, your excessive use of exclamation marks is juvenile. And the phrase is "couldn't care less"; if you "could care less" than it means you actually do care. You must have zero self-awareness not to realize how stupid you sound in this thread.
wow. stunning display of trollery r249.
There is a fellow who lives in the apartment next to me who I believe is gay. His brother, his sister-in-law, a cousin of his, and a number of his friends have all asked me if he is.
Since I'm gay they think I should know. I tell them "who knows.. he could be, but I have no idea..." And I leave it at that. It's really none of my business.
He lives next to me, so I see him often. I've never seen him with a girl and I've never seen him bring anyone home. The vibe he gives me is that he's gay but deeply closeted.
He's a nice guy though. Occasionally I might run into him in town and we'll have coffee and talk. In fact we just did about 3 days ago.
He's a lovely person, 45, well groomed, average to good looking... but he seems blocked and somehow wounded. That's the impression he gives me.
He knows I'm gay but I would never, but never, think of asking him if he's gay. It's none of my business, it's not something I would ask of anyone and it doesn't seem like a subject (for what ever reason) he wants to talk about.
I respect that.
The OP seems like a self-loathing, boorish individual.
Good grief, Mary! You are a gay man, why can't you ask if he's gay!? Is this 1952 or what?
For what reason?
[quote]For what reason?
Well, for starters, his entire extended family would like to know. And because maybe you, as an apparent friend and gay man, could possibly help him on his journey to acceptance.
He's a grown man. For whatever reason, he's not interested in that discussion. I have no desire to make him uncomfortable. I respect his privacy and I enjoy his company all the same.
Au contraire. HE sounds self-loathing.
No the tsk-tsk Queens... the sour-faced busy bodies are the self-loathing ones.
You must know that this troll at R249 is (ironically) deep in the closet. To everyone, and to himself. There is no other explanation for this particular type of trolling.
He spews hatred for gays but he sure spends a lot of time here. No other explanation. None.
252 got it right. OP is missing the point of equality and the fight for it. All humans should be judged by the content of their character, not skin color, nationality, sex or orientation. I don't need to know, nor care to know, who is or out of any closet. I will treat all people with respect. It's their lives.
[quote] LMAO PLEASE!! i could care less how many times I have posted on this thread you diseased...
... so lousy, so nasty, so bitter...
He cut poverty in half and he raised the standard of living for three quarters of the population who were living in the worst conditions. He helped the people and THAT was his job.
Republicans here in the USA, think they are suppose to make the lives of the rich, better. The middle class and the poor are of no importance to them.
More closet-defenders being nasty please~!
I totally agree with you, when you say:
" But if you subtly encourage others to believe you are interested in women, play the "pronoun game" when talking about your boyfriend, fail to correct people who obviously assume you are straight, or maintain an ironclad vow of silence about all personal topics at work and in other predominantly hetero settings--sorry, dude, you are a closet case."
IMO, those closet cases who play the "private life" card (ie Richard Armitage) are no better than those who beard ( ie Henry Cavill). Both ways of pandering to women just show how talentless these cowards are if they have to base their careers on sexually frustrated women and hide who they really are.
I can understand the motives of certain people to not want come out. Certain societies are full of hatred against gay people unfortunately. Ultimately it is up to the individual person himself. Outing somebody who for whatever reason likes to stay in the closet is just as vile and stupid as badmouthing people. Everybody has a right for privacy.
However, of course it would be better if we all could exist in a world where sexual orientation matters as much as what colour your shirt is you are wearing.
The right for privacy is the most hypocrite excuse made by closet cases.
If you deny the right for privacy to anybody you are an insensitive brute.
I don't deny privacy, I deny hypocrisy and it's a totally different thing.
R268 wrote: "The right for privacy is the most hypocrite excuse made by closet cases."
Yes, under your obnoxious, unsophisticated, rule-book.
Under your rules, which you insist on imposing on everyone, there is no bisexuality, no grey areas, no duplicity. There just can't be.
There is place for everything except hypocrisy.
Most people who are same-sex attracted will never publicly identify as gay. Some will marry the same sex, others will occasionally engage in same sex activity on the down low, others will be longterm celibate, others will become priests. Some are this way because of society, many others because of religion. At any rate, they have a right to decide who they want to be, how they want to identify, and how they want to live their lives. It is no one else's business how they decide. Let people be.
"MOST people who are same-sex attracted will never publicly identify as gay"
Are you nuts?
But in 2013 there are way less reasons to not be honest about your sexual orientation than you'd like to believe.
They can "decide" to be whomever they want to be. But I can "decide" to call them whatever fits my schematic.
r274, why don't you try debating with facts instead of ad hominem attacks?
--WEBMD: Nearly one in 10 men who say they're straight have sex only with other men, a New York City survey finds.
And 70% of those straight-identified men having sex with men are married.
In fact, 10% of all married men in this survey report same-sex behavior during the past year.
==Researcher Edward Laumann found that 8.6% of women and 10.1% of men had at one point in their life experienced some form of homosexuality. Of these, 87% of women and 76% of men reported current same-sex attractions, 41% of women and 52% of men had sex with someone of the same gender, and ONLY 16% of these women and 27% of those men identified as LGBT.
==The largest and most thorough survey in Australia to date was conducted by telephone interview with 19,307 respondents between the ages of 16 and 59 in 2001/2002. The study found that 97.4% of men identified as heterosexual, 1.6% as gay and 0.9% as bisexual. For women 97.7% identified as heterosexual, 0.8% as lesbian and 1.4% as bisexual. Nevertheless, 8.6% of men and 15.1% of women reported either feelings of attraction to the same gender or some sexual experience with the same gender. Half the men and two thirds of the women who had same-sex sexual experience regarded themselves as heterosexual rather than homosexual
---In an analysis of national survey results from 2006-2008, The percentage reporting their sexual identity as homosexual ranged from 2% to 4% of males, and about 1% to 2% of females. The percentage reporting their sexual identity as bisexual is between 1% and 3% of males, and 2% to 5% of females. (Chandra, Mosher, Copen, and Sionean 2011)
---The incidence rate of homosexual desire for men is 7.7% and 7.5% for women (Laumann, Gagnon, Michael, Michaels, 1994).
---In 2012, Gallup found that only about 3.5 percent of Americans identified as gay or bisexual.
==Janus and Janus, in their cross-sectional (not random) nationwide survey of American adults aged 18 and over, stated that 9% of men and 5% of women reported having had homosexual experiences "frequently" or "ongoing." In
facts are always good, r277, but nowhere in that chunk o'facts is it clear that "MOST" people who are same-sex attracted will never publicly identify as gay.
r278, so you think most those men married to women who are secretly into dudes are gonna come out and declare themselves gay someday?
No, and I judge them harshly for it.
...and over time, less and less 'confused' young men will bother marrying women as a sad way of trying to hide their sexual orientation.
The days of the closet are waning.
The closet is waning in most western nations, but it is still a very, very large closet with many rooms inside the closet. The fact that most popular gay porn stars and and adult workers who service men today do not identify as gay says it all. Even when there is photographic evidence of a guy's repeated sexual activity with other men, many still deny they are gay. And porn stars are supposed to be the most sexually liberated people in our society.
r281, tell that to Reese Rideout and his wife.
Pretty much the LAST people I would ever look to for example-setting of any kind are porn stars.
I hear you 282 but like with the downlow situation I think these men feel the term gay has a very narrow definition and it means certain things that they do not see themselves fitting into, and I get that.
A guy who is a gear head who loves sports and hunting and fishing is not the same as a theater queen who loves opera, drag shows and shopping. The theater queen might feel comfortable saying they are gay, the gear head knows he likes to fuck guys but doesn't call himself gay because he believes people picture someone that isn't representative of who he is. And he's probably right.
So do we need to make him call himself gay or is it enough for him to admit "yeah I love me some man ass."
If he says he loves man ass, he's out.
This is not about WHAT or HOW you define yourself, as long as you are being honest.
There is no one 'right' way to be out, except for this:
R285 All of that AND the fact that there are plenty of men who love to fuck women and eat pussy but don't mind a blow job now and then from a guy... or maybe even something more.
Wow. That's a whole lotta delusion going around in here.
R288 On your part there's a whole lot of small mindedness, ignorance of sexuality and lack of sophistication.
287 so should those guys say they are gay? They are actually BI if they like fucking women as well. So does saying you are BI qualify as being out of the closet?
R286 "If he says he loves man ass, he's out."
There's an old popular saying here In italy: "a nice ass is a nice ass"
I was speaking of the United States, just to put things in context.
I am sure lines are more muddled in Europe. I am sure there are more 'bisxexuals' in Europe.
I am talking about American closet-cases.
No, R289, just reality.
Try it sometime.
R288 "your realty"? No, no thanks.
there are people here that if you acknowledge that you are "into some dudes," you are still closeted if you don't identify as "gay."
Obviously you prefer to make up your own, R294.
[quote]And porn stars are supposed to be the most sexually liberated people in our society.
Golly, I just thought they were either the most damaged or stupid.
I'm in my forties and sometimes I don't even think I'm gay. I'm a woman and an attractive one. When I have told people of my non straightness, I've come to regret it. Every damn straight female friend seems to then start coming on to me. It was gross. Suddenly, every friend that I found totally unattractive and who screamed out thier straightness for all to hear, was thinking I'm game.Gay men make nasty lesbian sex comments. Gay men mostly despise lesbians or find them repulsive.Straights of all kinds get so tittilated and threesome invites made me want to hurl. My extended family see me as now having a "lifestyle" when I barely have a life, dammit. I have no special regard for the gay community(or any community for that matter) and now in my mid forties, I wish I never told anyone about the fact that from time to time I find myself in bed with a woman, and not with men. It's all so tedious and the OP sounds like an awful person to me. Seems as if dum dums place so much stock in meaningless identities and can't relate that some of us don't. The world is populated by pricks who need to feel superior since they are inferior sorts. Many so called "straights" will see your gayness as a defect or become way too curious. Who wants to give them cheap thrills.
True story...speaking of closets and religion. I know a man who divorced a year or so ago who is Jewish, married about 28-29 years, in his mid fifties has kids, fantastic career in healthcare, Ivy league educated the whole nine yards.
After the divorce, gay. Those closet doors must have been VERY thick.
WTF is up with that?
I have heard the story r299 tells before. A BI woman who comes out as BI to people sometimes gets a lot of bullshit to deal with. I've seen it happen. Straight guys regard them as sexual freaks game for anything and curious straight females get suggestive. Unless you are sexually promiscuous and like threesomes with couples or introducing newbies to the Sapphic arts, it can be uncomfortable having people approach you as a sex freak.
When I grew up, strangers saying they wanted to fuck me was always a compliment. I say enjoy it now, when you get older, straight, gay, men, women, nobodies going to want to touch you.
wow!!! Another tread full of gays hating other gays. Good job data lounge. My tolerance for people like you is OVER!!!
Quite frankly, OP, no one gives a shit so go stamp your little feet somewhere else.
I totally agree with you, OP. Closet cases are a disgrace.
It's always a compliment to men 304 and some women who get their self esteem boost that way. But not everyone wants that kind of attention from random strangers. It was a turn on for me in my twenties and early thirties, now I'm pushing 40 and I don't really want that.
"gays hating other gays"?
Out gays expressing disgust with closeted gay does not equal 'gays hating gays'.
R310 Let's correct that: it's clueless Queens who cannot accept the fact that some men play both sides of the field and that some men simply don't want to be identified as gay.
r303, I actaully came out as gay. One time a manager of a comedy club, where I had to attend for career purposes, kept hitting on me and I told him I was gay just to make it stop. Did not stop him for a second from then trying to set up a threesome with his half retarded wife.I don't look stereotypically gay, supposedly. Every straight girl slob friend(or ex friend) suddenly started making moony eyes and innuendo when I went through my coming out phase.I was never even sure I was gay. Maybe Bi.Sort of asexual in some ways. Once out of the closet, I wanted to take it all back. Most people can care less if it doesn't do something for them personally. Every one is different. Privacy should be respected. The OP sounds like a judgemental ass (who is too invested in his gayness for wont of something better to be invested in.)
Most out gays are flamers or butches for women, the rest of us normal acting gays can hide ha ha ha
op, you're right once again.
teched, r312, if you could read properly you would know op is a she.
She or he is right. End of story.
He or or whatnot. OP is an idiot with a very shrill presentation.
I agree with the op.
To each his/her own. But if more people in the public eye came out, it could be so encouraging and validating for the rest of the world.
I work on a military base as a civilian employee, and so far, we have one brave woman who happily brings her partner and child to events and displays their pics on her desk.
Good for her. It starts with one.
Oh she is R321. And she's a senior staff officer, which makes it even better.
How is it that OP prefers anonymity here?
I am anonymous in the same way any of us is anonymous, but I am out in real life. What's your point, r323?
Do I need to remind you that I am not saying I would "out" people as a verb, just that I would not be friends with closet-cases, and judge them harshly, as is my right.
I'm in favour of outing people unless they're young (under 30) or live in a potentially dangerous situation.And yes I think that Kevin Spacey is gay and a coward.
Why in the world is Kevin Spacey a coward? Because y o u think he's gay... and he hasn't made an announcement to that effect?
Exactly R326. Kevin Spacey has refused to admit he is gay, even at this late point in his career. It is cowardice.
Right now House of Cards is all the rage and it would be awesome if that show had a lead actor who was actually out. And yes, the majority of straight people have no idea that Spacey is actually gay.
Perhaps Spacey feels that he still has a film career ahead of him.
What major film actors with viable careers have announced that they are gay?
Please list them. Thanks in advance.
omg. THAT tired old meme? Kevin Spacey MAY have felt the need to closet for roles in his 30s. But he's ANCIENT now. And fugly. And no one would give a rat's ass if he came out.
Very good point about the OP choosing to be anonymous.
Come on OP authenticate.
I love these guys like 329... they get all crazy if people judge THEM, but them judging others? It's their sport.
"tired old meme"
"he's ANCIENT now"
Right 329. With queens like you, no wonder guys like Spacey have no interest in coming out.
Keanu should come out and come out now. It might revive his career.
How would my authenticating here on DL ("Closethater" or whatnot) make any difference?
I am amused by how defensive some of you closet-defenders are.
This is a snarky gay gossip board. I am an out gay woman.
Whether I authenticate herein has no bearing on my opening post in which I simply say I am through with tolerating closet-cases in my life and will not be friends with them.
"Gay" carries SO MUCH POLITICAL BAGGAGE. Being "gay" these days is much much more than simply being homosexual. You have to toe the line on every "issue", or your own so called community (and this board demonstrates what a joke "community" means) treats you as if you're a heretic - it's all so tedious. Then, once you do come out gay, next you have to be a twink, a bear, an otter, a fattie, a gym rat, a rice queen, a truckstop whore, a daddy, a babydyke, a butch dyke, a femme, a top, a bottom... What to choose? I can understand why some people don't want to engage with all of that rot (it's literally nauseating to some, you know). Leave them alone. They're not bothering you.
"....a twink, a bear, an otter, a fattie, a gym rat, a rice queen, a truckstop whore, a daddy, a babydyke, a butch dyke, a femme, a top, a bottom."
You left out, "sloe-eyed vamp".
It's all about YOU, isn't it OP?
ROFLMFAO! @R335. Those are the worst!
I misread this as "My tolerance for The Closer"
I really liked The Closer. Good show.
Op, keep up the good work.You're right.
1. [childish epithet posted by a bigoted tool] behaviour is a major cause of homophobia
2. [childish epithet posted by a bigoted tool] behaviour by some gay men is the major reason so many boys and young men have problems coming to terms with their homosexuality
3. there is nothing homophobic about disliking effeminacy – on the contrary, since gay men are [nearly always] attracted to masculinity, [childish epithet posted by a bigoted tool] behaviour is self-defeating
R341 thinks she is so manly!
r342, is a flamer!!!!
Notice how people like r342 are left with projecting and nothing else? And they're always the ones using terms like "manly" along with attempts to suggest that others are less than male.
Closet cases have it made, they have a wife to cook, clean, mother & beard for them.They get to be respected in the community, with none of the homophobia. I guarantee, they are the first ones, when with a group of male friends, to continually point out that faggot over there & make a big deal that that guy over there is gay. Theses said friends are clueless & would never suspect he's gay too.. That's some of the reasons I hate closet cases
[quote]This is a snarky gay gossip board. I am an out gay woman.
Cool, OP! Will you be blogging from this years Michfest? DL queens love to hear about the exploits of all you goddess'
r346 How do closet cases have it "made" when they are forced to sleep with women, and not be their authentic selves.
I would never set foot on "The Land" because I can't stand all those rules, regulations, boundaries and general overly-seriousness.
So, no, r348.
SenatorRob Portman of Ohio was adamantly against gay marriage. Now that his son has come out, he has now changed his stance and is favor of gay marriage. So YES, people staying in the closet is harmful and it does affect your life directly.
Nobody will ever be 'on the same level' or on 'the same page' as everybody else. And quite frankly a lot people don't want that anyway since it feels a lot better to them feeling superior.
Oh look, I am so smart and mature and you are so dumb and insecure! Ha ha! I am better than you!
I am out and happy and you are in the closet and sad! Ha ha!
I am rich while being in the closet and you are out but poor! Ha ha!
As r351 said, Senator Portman's change of heart would not have happened if his son Will was still hiding in the closet.
This is why I no longer tolerate closet-cases.
Plain and simple.
The closet = ignorance.
R352's last line is why closet cases deserve no sympathy at all.
OUT THEM ALL
No, just the politicians who legislate against us.
And the preachers/priests who rail against us to their flocks.
The rest SHOULD come out, but I wouldn't actively out them.
When a young gay person takes their life, because of bullying, When a gay person is murdered simply for being gay, when a child is thrown out of the house, simply for telling their parents, that they are gay. Theses are things I am holding closet cases responsible for. If the majority of gay people, if not all came out, there would no longer be a stigma in society. Strength in numbers.
exactly. Closet = death.
More people are out now than ever. Gay "role" models are everywhere. Gay here...gay there... the subject is all over the place.
And yet it seems as if there is MORE bullying and suicides than ever.
The closet absolutely contributes to stigma. But the idea that if everyone were out the would be no stigma I think is baseless. Even if everyone felt comfortable coming out the moment they recognized their sexuality, homosexuals would still be a minority, and minorities are almost always stigmatized unless they are minorities of choice like the wealthy. The closeted should come out to lessen stigma, not eliminate it; burdening them with responsibility for all prejudice against gays is just dishonest and unfair, and an effort to shift the stigma from gays as a whole on to the closeted alone.
"...yet it seems as if there is MORE bullying and suicides than ever."
the key word being YET.
There are simply being covered more.
My god! I meant the key word is SEEMS, of course.
"...burdening them with responsibility for all prejudice against gays..."
Really? You got that from my posts?
No one is saying closet-cases are responsible for "ALL PREJUDICE AGAINST GAYS" and you're being incredibly disingenuous by claiming we are.
Our society needs to change so people are not afraid to come out.
Our society is changing, and quickly. The closet cases have less and less of an excuse all the time. For some reason, that seems to terrify them.
Because they are the last holdouts, and they are cowards. Some of them even enjoy the lying.
The only place I'm closeted is at work. There is so much back-biting and back-stabbing that I have no real connection with anyone. I am not connected enough with anyone to be revealing personal tidbits about myself. I stay out of the politics and cut-throatery, do my job and go home to the people who have meaning in my life. One of my friends always says, "You MUST come out everywhere, especially at work." Bullshit, I say.
If I worked in a friendly environment, I would. Unfortunately, this is not a friendly environment (though the money is good).
I'm in your boat, R367, and share your sentiments to the letter. If you don't work in an environment where being out would be no big deal, then don't come out at work. The end.
Just out people of note. Leave the rest alone.
I also predict that in the near future, the government will engrave pink triangles on all of the homos, because, yes, they fucking know. They know everything about you.
The reason I say out the people of note is because the government will not out them, so out them now.
There is not much left to be paranoid about.
[quote]Our society needs to change so people are not afraid to come out.
Society isn't going to change with everyone in the closet. If everyone who was closeted came out, our society would change.
The cart doesn't push the horse, the horse pulls the cart.
More and more people who have changed their minds about gay marriage are saying expressly that it is because their child or their sister or their friend is gay.
MUCH of the recent progress on gay rights is directly related to people COMING OUT.
How about brosexuals?
OP, how old were you when you came out?
What process did you go through to come out?
Was it an instantaneous decision or did you have to consider it?
If you considered it, how long did you consider it?
If you considered it, and for some length of time before doing it, can you conceive that other people might be going through the same process you did?
Can you put yourself in their shoes?
Can you conceive of there being being general societal reasons why people might find it difficult to come out in 2013?
Whether you can or cannot conceive of general societal reasons why someone might find it difficult to come out now, can you conceive of reasons of a more individual nature which might make it difficult for someone to come out in 2013?
Have you always been so empathy-challenged?
i have been honest about that from the start (if you'd bothered to read the thread).
i came out, decades ago, in my early 20s. i am NOT talking about young people, not talking about teens or even college kids. i am talking about mature adults who have already wrestled with the early confusion of their 'coming out' to themselves years.
i am talking about people in their late 20s, their 30s, their 40s. i am talking about people who, knowing better, go ahead and get married for ALL the wrong reasons and then remain closeted. i am talking about grown adults who LIE to this day about who they are.
lastly, i am talking about this from the perspective of the U.S.A. in the year 2013. NOT a country in Africa. NOT a country in the Middle East.
The most political thing a gay person can do, and the most potent act against a homophobic society, is to simply come out and stay that way. This is especially true if you are uniformly out in every area and each second of your life.
Simply knowing an out gay person has changed many homophobe's minds.
Closet-cases further the lie that being gay is shameful and ruins lives.
I noticed that the OP failed to sign the thread as God Almighty. What a piece of crap.
r378 (r101) are YOU in the closet?
R379. As long as I live here, none of your God damned business
R378 = closet case.
R381 friendless piss drinker.
Here's the thing, R382: what I'm calling you is (clearly) true, but all you have in response is childish ad hominem attacks and name-calling.
Haha, maybe but you're still a closet case.
R383. Isn't that the way on DL?
Closet cases don't like to be called out.
Also "piss drinker" is clearly a homophobic slur.
I'm amazed by the closeted mindset: attack out gay people with the same language as homophobes.
Yes, next you'll call me a fudgepacker, proving my point.
I picture r380 as a mottled old snake, hissing from the back of a very musty, dark closet.
Are your ears burning, Johnny Revolta? Yes, we ARE talking about you.
Saturday Night Receiver
I still don't get what business it is of anyone's if another person is out or not. So petty.
R390 Closet cases like you don't get lots of things, unfortunately.
r390, a person's COMPLETE, whole life is lived openly. You can't name ONE straight person who goes around saying "my private life is none of your business."
Even if you have no friends, and your parents and siblings are long dead, you STILL encounter other human beings once in a while. Perhaps you work in an office setting. Almost all of your colleagues are, whether you like to see it this way or not, exposing you to their private lives every single day. A photo of their wife or husband on their cubicle wall. A mention of what they did over the weekend. Just by HAVING a partner, you know that they have 'admitted' they have sexual relations with a member of the opposite sex every so often. Why does the idea that they will know the same thing about you bother you so much? I don't get how you don't get that.
R391 - I am far from closeted. Any and everyone who knows me knows that I have been with my partner for 16 years. That is my choice. If someone wants to get fucked by pigmy goats while jerking off to pictures of Herman Munster - that's their business. I have no business knowing what you do in your private life any more than you deserve to know mine.
There was a time where people did have to "come out" - it was called Nazi Germany. That didn't work out too well did it?
R392 - I can name some straight people that say that. Quite a few of them.
When they start rounding us up and locking us up in death camps, you'll wish you had kept it to yourself. I fear that day could come.
I totally agree with you. No honest person hides who he loves.
R396 - I didn't say I hid anything personally, but I do not see why it is my business to make someone else live their life a particular way, even if it is out. By that logic? Christians should be able to make us go to church?
Paranoia is very unattractive. Particularly when it is misplaced.
I don't care the way you live your life, what interests me is visibility because that influences also my life.
R399 - how so? I'm guessing that could be a double edged sword?
Really? Every out gay man makes you proud? There are so many out gay men that make me cringe it boggles the mind. Think hard, you will know there are some way out men that do more harm to the cause than good.
Name a "way out man".
R403 - Milky Loads ring a bell?
Maybe I've been lucky and I've never met an out gay man who caused me harm.
Andrew Sullivan lived through a very embarrassing time in his life to become a fully legitimate and respected political commentator.
Are you David E by chance?
R407 and yet he gets crucified on every thread here. I, like you, don't care how many loads he takes, but apparently that is a topic of intense debate on DL. How do you think the guys strutting around Castro naked with their fuck puppet walking on all fours in a leather harness makes non-gays feel about us?
I really don't care. They skeeve me out too, but at this point, in the year 2013, they are but a teeny-tiny minority of the gay population, and hardly a justification for anyone to remain cowering in the closet.
oh, and r207, the fact that you called yourself (and showed as much in his threads) the Brandon's #1 fan, your opinion on ANYTHING is rendered irrelevant.
R409 - Really? I ABSOLUTELY LOVE that I influenced your day enough for your to troll-dar and then come back thinking it was shocking information. I make no effort to hide anything. I will definitely go to sleep tonight, laughing about the fact that I influenced you enough to make an effort. That, my friend, is POWER.
you're funny, r410.
and a margaret thatcher fan. probably fond of ron paul as well.
if you actually spend a moment of your evening before bed tonight thinking about me and this thread, i would posit the power is mine.
R411 - Yes I do respect Margaret Thatcher. Ron Paul is too old to bear thought. The power will never, ever, be yours.
My tolerance is over too. I'm sick of all the pussies and wimps who have no guts. In a time where fighting for gay rights is more important than ever, every single person that is openly gay makes a difference.
I guess the people who irritate me the most are the wealthy people in show business, who refuse to come out. Look at Clive Davis, he's 108 years old and he just now came out...of course that's better then the low life Merv Griffen but really! Super rich and you still won't come out? It's revolting. And Ryan Seacrest...could he be any more sleazy and vomit inducing? Fuck him with a chain saw.
You admired Margaret Thatcher, you sick, sick woman. You should be ashamed of yourself.
^^ (who?) ^^
I couldn't agree more.
This in an interesting extract from an article (yesterday New Yorker)
I think that coming out is the strongest and most important political act any gay person can take. It lets others know who we are, and, as I learned in politics, if you personally know a gay person, it is harder to support any kind of discrimination against him or her.
f417, how do you know the closet-defending Margaret Thatcher fan is a woman??
I love how you people/OP think anyone gives a shit what you think. You're all old, and on your way to the home. Time to shut up, and die with some dignity.
This thread = gays are accepted in society. Prejudice and danger doesn't exist. Thanks for admitting it. Republicans are right.
say what, r421?
r421 makes zero sense.
troll-dar r101 and then go to the Rick Warren son thread.
we have a self-loathing closet-case among us.
R421 is another angry closet case. The convoluted logic is a giveaway.
"Come out, come out, wherever you are!"
Glenda, the Good Witch
Aaron Schock and Lindsay Graham should be outed. I will say that.
I don't understand the need to out people. If someone wants to be in the closet, then let them. It doesn't affect my life.
It absolutely DOES if you're gay yourself.
It affects everyone...especially if you are gay. Some people have such a narrow view of life. They are navel gazers.
I honestly don't understand r429's mindset.
I just can't get into that head space. Number one: this is not about outing people.
Number two: closeted gays DO affect every other gay's life. sure, not in direct ways, but certainly in terms of society and homophobia in general.
Because "outing" someone is not some "thing" that you do, it's just being honest. Closet people are demanding, as this thread proves, that everyone keep their secrets for them. Why? What possible obligation do we have to these people?
And as for the notion that nobody has a "right" to speculate on anyone else's sexuality, well, nuts to that. Everyone does, even the people who insist that nobody do so.
R433 - closeted gays do not hurt any of us that are out - provided they are not spouting some anti-gay rhetoric. If their industry, family, geography doesn't make it comfortable for them to come out then they should be able to handle coming out however they want. This absurd pressure to make people come out or be outed is going to do nothing but push people further into the closet.
Live your own life girls.
Exactly. For straight people that's not even an issue!
You know if someone's single or married or has a boyfriend or a girlfriend, and it's just another aspect of knowing who they are.
The freaky "it's nobody's business" freaks are just that: freaks.
...and just in time, r435 pops back in....speaking of...
R437 - I am out as can be. I do not pretend to believe that what I do is what is the right thing for everyone else to do. People have the right to live their life the way they want.
I am not saying you're not out yourself, just that your opinion that others who are NOT out aren't somehow affecting every other gay person is flat-out wrong.
You can see the assistants are very busy...insisting that there is absolutely no problem, with the closet.
R440 - what assistants?
Does Dave Grohl have no tolerance for the closet?
I love to out people. I recently caught a married man from work out a a gay bar french kissing his boyfriend in the corner. I took 30 pictures of the event and emailed them to his wife and 18 year old daughter. HAHAHAHAHAHA. He was busted and is now divorcing. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
you're lying, r444.
Do you really think he is lying?
Yes, he's lying and trolling and in that way trying to imply that anyone who has no tolerance for closet-cases is going around taking joy in outing people.
It's uncanny, R447! It's like you're inside my head seeing my thoughts.
R444 Rolling Eyes
I agree with OP. I'm so sick of cowards who hide in the closet, like Revolta, Robin Roberts, Shep Smith, and power bottom extraordinaire Gio Benitez. Shame on all of them for not coming out.
R444 is doing a public services AFAIC. Wives should know forthwith.
In my experience, more and more gay people are going in the closet
I call bullshit. Please describe one or two of these instances, in your experience, r454.
Is this another attempt to discuss Hugh Jackman's beard.
Anti gay sentiments are higher now than ever!
No. They are lower than ever, therefore the anti-gay freaks are MORE AGITATED than ever, and yes, acting out violently.
But their numbers are dwindling.
That is what they are railing against -- that the closet is a dying institution.
[quote]Anti gay sentiments are higher now than ever!
Very true. But, don't let it bother you.
People have gotten so clued in to gay stuff these days I think it would be pretty hard to hide even if you wanted to.
I just went to the closet and took out. . .
[quote]People have gotten so clued in to gay stuff these days I think it would be pretty hard to hide even if you wanted to.
It's supremely easy to hide. Just hire a wife and adopt two kids.
Or have kids with the hired wife.
Perfect! No one will ever guess.
Jared and Jensen
OP must be head waiter somewhere.
What difference does it make if someone comes out or not? When I see a pathetic fairy trying to act like Joan Crawford, I want to vomit. It's the fairy's right to act like Joan, if they choose.
R469, you're not just in the closet. You're in 1952.
R470 Nice to hear from you, Joan.
What a witty retort, r471. Exactly what a "pathetic fairy trying to act like Joan Crawford" would come up with. I guess that fairy you see greets you whenever you walk by a mirror.
Meanwhile, what a hilarious way to prove how deluded and self-loathing closet cases like you are.
Volunteer at a gay community centre, OP.
Gay community centers are typically valuable resources for teenagers and young adults, both groups I am NOT calling pathetic, craven souls.
Of course there's a time when a young person is closeted, as they are just figuring out their sexuality.
Are there many 30-50 year olds seeking help from gay community centers?
Thanks R472. Go fuck yourself.
I can't believe there are grown men in the closet. Coming out is part of being an adult and taking responsibility of your life. If you are over the age of 21 and still living at home and still in the closet because mom and dad pay your bills, you have more problems than being the closet.
Besides, if you can lie about something so vital such as your sexual orientation, I often wonder what else you can lie about it.
I agree with you but let's say that "after the age of 30" it's no longer acceptable being in the closet.
After 30? That's crazy.
I get your point. But I prefer to be sure they had all the time they needed to become a responsible adult.
Yes, no one is expecting teenagers or young adults fresh out of college to be completely open and honest about themselves, but once you are in your late 20s, lying and remaining closeted is craven & cowardly.
And I truly believe the number of people in the closet is shrinking daily. Thankfully.
It's not just religious people who have difficulty with coming out, there are also those who suffer from severe social anxiety or an avoidant personality disorder. Those people simply cannot cope with the negative side of being openly gay in society, regardless of whether they accept themselves or not.
...well they need to get over it or OWN the fact that they are cowards.
Good god, R486 (and on and on), do you ever get tired of running your mouth?
You don't have a friend in the world, do you?
Well, R487, a rose by any other name is still a rose. He's right...they're cowards.
Let me make sure I am getting this right. According to R486 and R488, people who suffer from issues of anxiety or a personality disorder are cowards?
Really? That's what you're going with?
Do you think people who are confined to a wheelchair are really just lazy?
Oh my, R489.
People that whine about the closet are pathetic.
R490 Why dont you answer the question?
Gay = social anxiety? You're a grown adult. Act like an adult. If you are over the age of 18, get a freaking grip. Grow a pair of balls.
If one is lifelong celibate and intends to remain so, there is no need to come out.
[quote]Gay = social anxiety?
No one here said being gay equals social anxiety. That you think someone has says a real lot about you.
R485 was talking about people who suffer from anxiety and/or a personality disorder. A condition they have no control over.
So, that being said, and for the second time. Do you really think people who suffer from a personality disorder are really just cowards? Its really not that hard a question. All you need to do is say yes or no.
People who suffer personality disorders are not cowards.
People who claim, "I'm too scared to come out the the closet, therefore I have a personality disorder" are pathetic, spineless wimps.
Surely after the age of 40, a successful actor could come out. I mean, Cruise, Travolta and Reeves in the closet? They should feel embarrassed and ashamed.
[quote]It's not just religious people who have difficulty with coming out, there are also those who suffer from severe social anxiety or an avoidant personality disorder. Those people simply cannot cope with the negative side of being openly gay in society, regardless of whether they accept themselves or not.
[quote]No one here said being gay equals social anxiety.
Well basically, if you're gay, in the closet, an adult, and afraid to come out because some *thing* you blame, you're a coward. That's my opinion. You don't share my opinion. I don't know what else tell you.
[quote] I don't know what else tell you.
There is nothing else you need to tell us. By avoiding answering the question directly, you have told us all we need to know.
Enjoy living in your black and white world where empathy is in short supply.
i totally agree with you.
my opinion: if you are a private citizen with no real power, and by coming out it'd destroy you, then I don't blame you.
BUT, if you are someone of means, means to influence, affect change than FUCK YOU and go to the shed, get your balls and come out like a man.
If you're an actor who is hugely popular, get off the fame crack pipe and do some fucking good in the world. There are kids hanging themselves over this shit!
If you are a politician (a la alleged gay Ms. Graham) then SOMEONE SHOULD BE OUTING THEM ALL!!! The Aaron Shocks, etc. If they're not gay, there's nothing to be afraid of. But these tools make laws, appoint judges. If you can OUT THE FOOLS then DO IT NOW. It's 2013.
If you are someone who can comfortably come out i.e. it'd be tough but you'd get through it, then do it to advance our agenda, which is nothing more than acceptance.
r496 speaks the truth.
So - Those with means are expected to come out but those without, in less than optimal circumstances, are given a pass? Don't you see the hypocrisy in that opinion? Class warfare much? A person is a person is a person, people. WTF difference does it make if they're King of Spain or Trailer Park Tom? Seriously, and I will say this just one more time - a person's decision to come out should be THEIR OWN. PERIOD! Nobody owes the "gay community" ANYTHING. They just don't. Let people live their lives on their OWN terms. Isn't that what you ask for yourself? Of course it is.
R503 You're not gay, are you?
People are individuals. There is no duty for bisexual or gay people to place the gay community or gay rights above other important factors in that individuals' life, such as religious beliefs, family, business, reputation, or safety. You can disagree with someone who does not think being openly gay is personal priority or value, but you should at least respect the right of the individual to determine who they are, what they identify as, and how much of their personal life and interests they will disclose. It's called choice and liberty.
R504 - Yes, I'm gay - and have been out for a LONG time. I would never out someone because they were a celebrity or of other notoriety. Now, I will say that if someone were actively trying to hurt the gay movement, and there was hard evidence that they were a closet case - I would be hard pressed to ignore their hypocrisy. But otherwise, NO. It's NOT my business in any shape, form, or fashion. It's GROSS to out someone just because you can.
[quote]There is no duty for bisexual or gay people to place the gay community or gay rights above other important factors in that individuals' life.
Fuck those gay kids who kill themselves because they know nobody who's gay. It's all about ME and SEX! CRUISNG GYMS!
But, I tell the world I'm straight.
Oh BULLSHIT, R508 - That kind of logic may have been valid 30 years ago - but please. There are TONS of gay role models now. There is no kid that said "you know what, I'm NOT going to kill myself because so and so got outed, I respect them now and want to emulate them". NONE. Your argument is a straw man and you know it.
It's all about me. Me. ME.
Yes R510, we have all noticed, it is all about you. Fuck what other people maybe living with. You and your needs trump everyone else.
I don't believe it's a strawman, r509. The closet reinforces the concept of shame.
You're wrong. The argument is still valid. just think of Russia.
You could replace "Mame" with "Me" in the song, "Mame". Beautiful. I have written a musical of selfish closeted man with social anxiety. With "social anxiety".
[quote]There are TONS of gay role models now
Speaking of bullshit, R509. Smell you.
R514 the only people who will find that clever are other fossils like yourself.
I'm not a fossil. And, I'm glad that fossils would find that clever. I was in Mame!
R517 Mame was nearly 50 years ago. if you were in it (which I doubt) then you are a fossil, and a very nelly one at that.
I was in elementary school when my local high school put on the musical. I was in the chorus.
If you make a fossil laugh, then you have arrived.
Ah r503, I think THEY owe humanity, some honesty. Until people realize how MANY are gay, they will keep excluding us and simply pretend gay people are an oddity. We are not.
And class warfare? I'm all for it.
So many of my gay and lesbian friends have beards
Has anyone seen the documentary "Out Late" on Netflix that's about 5 gay/trans men and women who didn't come out until very late in life? One of them at age 79, another at 65, etc.?
Of course, these people grew up in totally different times, and one of them (a man) was married to a woman for 47 years...but he always knew he was attracted to men primarily. Just gives a lot of insight on all the many different reasons people stay in the closet for so long. It was kinda heartbreaking, but fascinating.
I DO judge.
"Gay man exposes over 300 men to HIV" -- closet equals death.
Mike Mills made a movie about his father who came out very late in life. It's called Beginners. It's kind of odd but I thought the director Mike Mills was gay, before I knew his father was. Apparently Mike Mills does not feel gay. Some things puzzle me.
He's not gay, his father is. Why does that puzzle you?
Gays HATE other gays!!
Masculine gay men and feminine lesbians are in the closet
It puzzled me because before I knew much about Mills, I thought he pinged.
I guess I was wrong. He's not gay, his father was. I'm surprised my gaydar was so wrong and I wonder if he came across as gay, because he was raised by a gay man?
r529 is a time-traveler, posting from 1944.
Question...would you or have you outed a closeted gay homophobe?
[quote]Gays HATE other gays!!
Gays who hate themselves, hate gays.
People are ashamed of being gay
Only craven cowards are ashamed of being gay.
Regular, everyday gay people are not ashamed. i.e. MOST gay people at this point.
lol. Fuck off.
r536, who are you addressing?
No one cares what you think. Not even Sally Jesse Raphael cares. So why don't you crawl back under your rock, and be AIDS infested or whatever.
Most gays are in the closet
Most gays, in 2013, are out of the closet. The only remaining adult closet-cases (not high school or college age, mind you) are scared republicans.
BS!!! most masculine gay men and feminine lesbians are not fully out!!!
I actually know more out conservatives than libs!!!
OP, maybe in the US you have the privilege to say that you have no tolerance for the closet. In many, many other countries it'll cost you your social life, your job, and sometimes even your freedom and life.
Fuck you OP, with a barbed wire dildo....right up your fairy ass!
OP is a flamer
OP is a middle aged lesbian who is sometimes, when not dolled up for "date night," mistaken for any old hausfrau.
Leave the OP alone!
Op is right, no more tolerance for the cowards.
Seriously, if it's 2013 and it's no big deal then why are these actors lying about who they are? It's one thing to simply not talk about your private life, it's certainly another to blatantly lie in interviews and through the use of beards.
At some point, usually when a gay person goes to college, etc., he or she realizes it's time to come out. If you continue to cling to the "it's still too soon" or "I'm just not ready" defense, fine. But don't be surprised when we come after you. We faced up to it, and so do you.
Gays are so intolerant.
Intolerance for lying does not equal intolerant.
Perez Hilton, haven't you learned your lesson about bullying?
Posters, what is your definition of out?
You gotta flaunt it and challenge everyone you meet!
out = not lying when chatting with office mates or people at a cocktail party & directly asked a question like "what does your wife do?" if you are a gay man, etc.
out does NOT = "flaunting it and challenging everyone you meet".
What is YOUR definition of out, r563?
Ladies, shut the fuck up and mind your own business.
I can come out to whom I want, when I want, in a manner comfortable to me. The tolerance level of strangers is as relevant to me as Anne Romney's cunt hair.
that's fine, r567. I did not advocate OUTING people.
I am simply saying I will judge you harshly and refuse to associate with you if you are cowering in the closet and lie when asked direct questions.
You shut the fuck up, R567. And, if you use terms like "ladies" when referring to gay men, you're homophobic AND openly gay. Not a closeted homophobe in the least.
r567, why would you use the female pronoun to refer to gay dudes? you have issues, man. get help.
"Ladies" is a "you're in inferior", thing. Some gay men see themselves as less than.
...particularly closet cases...
I don't understand why society has to kowtow to liars and cowards... stand up for yourself, or get left behind.
I don't understand why people are so against outing. In my opinion, the people who are against outing, are the same people who are, or used to be, against gay people on some level.
you cannot OUT anyone. What do these terms even really mean in the year 2013?
R575, what do you mean by "much more deep"? I'm very interested.
R576 He means that he's so deep in the closet that he wants people to believe that being out is no longer important.
R578 you're totally right and very well said.
this is BRILLIANT and true.
totally worth 7 minutes of your time.