'Homosexuality is a ticking timebomb for the Catholic Church'
[quote]Explosive claim of former friar who says half of recruits are gay. Mark Dowd says gay men are 'massively over-represented' within Church.
[quote]Mark Dowd, who is now a journalist, said research for his 2001 Channel 4 documentary Queer and Catholic suggested that at least half of people attracted into seminaries in the priesthood are gay.
What's refreshing is how intelligent and articulate this man, Mark Dowd, a gay former friar is.
Check out his CNN interview with Christian Amanpour, at the bottom of the page.
[quote]Mark Dowd... suggested that at least half of people attracted into seminaries in the priesthood are gay.
We know that Tom Cruise wanted to become a priest before he got into acting. His first wife said he was like a monk.
This is the great conundrum of the RC church. Homophobia provides them with priests--"I'm Gay, being Gay is wrong, I need to hide, I'll take a vow of celibacy.". Five years later, they find that being Gay is not so easy to ignore, and things get complicated.
Now that male homosexuals are understanding that we are free to be who we are and love who we do, the RC church is going to need to come up with a whole new marketing plan for recruiting personnel.
Another article by Mark Dowd today:-
'I approached a director at Channel 4 back in 2000 with a proposal for a documentary on homosexuality and the Roman Catholic church. I had a simple pitch. "I want to show why my church is so anti-gay."
"And why is your church so anti-gay?," came back the obvious question. "Because it is so gay," I replied.'
While this is absolutely not news to most people, the fact that this story is getting media attention around the globe this week means it's MAJOR news. What has been whispered for decades is now in bold print headlines and leading the news stories on radio and TV news programs.
Mark Dowd's original story, though carefully researched and well-written, didn't have the impact that his interviews are having this week. Timing is everything. This story hits the desk of the Pope on his last full day at the Vatican.
What else will jump out in the faces of the Cardinals when they meet in Rome in the next few weeks?
Piggybacking on what R3 said, the Church is full of priests, cardinals and bishops who joined the clergy solely in the hopes of praying the gay away. When that didn't happen, and when these closet cases saw what was happening in the outside world, i.e. greater acceptance of homosexuality, they became very bitter and very hostile and vitriolic. And who wouldn't be bitter and nasty when you've betrayed yourself?
This fascinating piece from the terrific Wild Reed site (gay Catholic) puts it all very succinctly.
[quote]the Church is full of priests, cardinals and bishops who joined the clergy solely in the hopes of praying the gay away. When that didn't happen, and when these closet cases saw what was happening in the outside world, i.e. greater acceptance of homosexuality, they became very bitter and very hostile and vitriolic.
Yes, but let's not confine this to the Catholics. If anything, the various Fundie churches make the Catholics seem open and moderate.
[quote] the Church is full of priests, cardinals and bishops who joined the clergy solely in the hopes of praying the gay away
Umm, he's ignoring 50% of why they joined. If they are "praying the gay away," they are conveniently doing do without having to have any significant interaction with females. Fess up. Women have no role in the RC church except to be "lay ministers" when their kids leave home and they have gained 70 lbs and are no longer a threat to anyone. Then the women can volunteer to give communion in the nursing homes and hospices.
My mother used to be in the Rosary Altar society. They cleaned the church and the rectory. I couldn't believe it when my mother told me we were going to the church because she belonged to a group that had a very important job to do -- when we got there and they pulled out rags and dust mops. And -- they went to clean the rectory only after being given the all-clear. The priests would leave before they got there. They didn't even want to say hello to these housewives who volunteered to clean up after them (sometimes before they'd even cleaned up after their own families).
The RC church is gay because there aren't any women. They don't even have enough nuns to care for the surviving old nuns from the old days.
When you pointedly exclude women, you get gay men.
Please, a friend of mine was in the seminary for about 6 months - gayest thing ever. More butt fucking and cock sucking than in a prison block. They were all having relationships with each other, pining away for the perceived cute priests, etc. Very gay.
Thank you R4, the church has a PEDO problem, not a gay one. If gay priests remain true to their celibacy vows (or even don't and have relationships with other ADULTS) then who cares. It's the molesters and the church protecting them that's the real issue. This is only going to reinforce the incorrect assumption that gay men are pedos.
[quote] Yes, but let's not confine this to the Catholics. If anything, the various Fundie churches make the Catholics seem open and moderate.
Let's not pretend other religions have nearly the problem the catholic church has. Other religions allow men to marry and have children. Chances are, most of those pastors are heterosexual. A few are gay, but nowhere near the number if gay men in the RC church. When men can't marry or even date, you don't get a lot of hererosexuals. You get gay men who dont want to get married to or have sex with women. As Bar Bush would say, this has been working out very well for them.
Up to now, at least. But now gay men can be gay. Those who join the catholic church are twisted, angry and ashamed.
The obvious answer is allow women priests and allow priests to marry and have families (including gay ones). The pope already presides over denominations that allow married priests, which means they already know it is not a moral absolute that priests be celibate.
Think of all the money they are not getting for their pretty stained glass windows and overly complicated old churches because they haven't appealed to the gays.
Nobody else is even interested in those old piles of stone.
[quote]the Church is full of priests, cardinals and bishops who joined the clergy solely in the hopes of praying the gay away.
It's a similar case with the Marines. The USMC slogan "The Marine Corps builds men," has always attracted lots of young men who thought they would outgrow being gay. For that reason, it's the gayest of all our military services.
"...the Church is full of priests, cardinals and bishops who joined the clergy solely in the hopes of praying the gay away."
We have some of these very men who are regular DL posters.
[quote]For that reason, it's the gayest of all our military services.
I don't know. The Navy's pretty gay.
Great. More reasons for them to hate us.
The Church is overrun by gays.
The Church is imploding, because of a "gay lobby."
The Pope is resigning - because of the gays.
Gays must be the source of the pedophile problem.
Gays hate the Church. Gays hate God.
Look what they're doing to the Boy Scouts.
See how nasty they can be towards Mormons.
Gays are destroying marriage.
Gays are evil.
R26 Benedict iand Wojtyla were evil. Gays are good.
[quote] Parishioners felt buoyed by his homilies. They hungrily signed up for his far-flung spiritual pilgrimages, flocked to church fund-raisers to catch his melodious voice interpreting show tunes.
[quote] Monsignor Wallin framed the playbills from the many shows he saw. His parish e-mail address became broadwayguy73.
He probably posted here.
Give me a history lesson.
I know there are some bible verses that talk about how they can't put anything (I guess a wife a kids) above the lord, but didn't they allow married priests for several centuries, and don't they still allow the Eastern (Ukrainian for example) priests to be married?
Is this about money? A single priest would have been less likely to build his own little empire right? And when he died whatever land, money and wealth he (or his church) had accumulated went to Rome, right?
Actually I think it's about the national v. ecclesiastical power. In olden days kings and barons were very jealous of anyone who could create a family empire through inheritance. They had less problem with non-reproducing men since they viewed power as essentially coming from family ties. Western Catholicism gave up reproduction in order to preserve their prerogatives in competition the military power of the feudal chiefs.
The Orthodox Church permits married priests and always has. This was another Catholic innovation that has no basis in anything. The Orthodox church requires bishops to be unmarried.
The Catholic Church once had married priests and nuns. The Church also had same-sex marriage. It's all part of the history that they keep hidden from the people.
Tee hee, hee
It was the other way round, R60. Priests used to marry at will and then the risk was church property would slide away into the families' hands. This was why the 'reforming' papacy of the 11th and 12th centuries was so hot on celibacy - preserving church wealth. They said this at the time and were completely open and proud about it - it isn't some modern attack on the church's motives. The sex-hatred inherited from the Church Fathers was also a factor, but that hadn't stopped centuries of married clergy in either the western or the Eastern churches. (Married clergy could virtually never get promoted in any branch of the early medieval church, however; hence in the east it was the celibate monks who got all the nice bishoprics and became patriarchs, while the married parish priests stayed where they were. It's still like that in the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches.)
Duh - replying to R30, not the as yet non-existent R60.
The link at r25 sounds like a Father Ted episode.
It is absurd to call this a "ticking timebomb". It's not as if any of this is new. Estimates of gay priests vary widely, but former seminarians give astronomical figures (as in, 2/3 or 3/4 of their class were gay). The Church has long lived with the hypocrisy, and will just continue to do so.
FYI it is probably not the same around the world. In Africa / Asia / S America, the priesthood is attractive as a way out of crushing poverty and into material stability and relative respect, and thus has much broader appeal as an attractive way of life than in the US and Europe.
The problem with gays in the Catholic Church is that they're all closeted. And few things are as anti-gay as a closet case.
I'm convinced that most of the anti-gay posts here on DL are from closet cases.
No, R4. These people are pairing the two. The implication is that there would be less sexual abuse in the church if the priests were not gay. There is more sexual abuse because, like rightwing republicans, there is more effort to cover it up.
In Africa there is no tradition of being chaste, just not married, in the priesthood. Most of them have families.
I've never been molested, but I can't imagine the horror of having some cold, pasty Priest hands going down my pants as a little boy. I'd never be able to forget the powerlessness, hopelessness (who'd believe you?) and the "ick factor".
We need to keep in mind that 'little boys' are almost never molested in the church. It is teen boys.
Average age 16 with some as old as 19 and of course some younger.
16 ain't right but it is not pedophilia.
[quote] The Catholic Church once had married priests and nuns.
I very much doubt the church ever had married nuns. It's always been a chauvinistic organization.
It started in the Jewish Middle East (where women walk behind their 13 year old sons) and made its way to Mediterranean Rome, where religious women were not allowed to marry. Women had no rights in these cultures. Those who could marry weren't allowed to agree with who their husbands should be. In Rome, after being married off to a man by her family, a woman could be told by her family after a few years of marriage to divorce her husband and marry another.
Married women were no longer pure. Purity meant everything to these backward cultures. Menstruating women aren't even allowed at the Wailing Wall.