I don't understand how some gay men can be so irresponsible when it comes to sex.
Let me start off by saying that I'm a gay guy and am NOT a sex-negative pearl clutcher at all. I have a healthy sex drive and (shocker!) sometimes I act on it, and always use protection. However, sometimes I hear stories from gay friends and acquaintances that I find mind-boggling.
Tonight at the gym, I was chatting with a gym acquaintance who had just returned from Cancun. He's got a bf and they don't have an open relationship. The bf couldn't make the trip, so my acquaintance went by himself. We talked about the beaches and of course the topic of conversation turned to the hot guys there. He went on to tell me that in the four days he was there, he hooked up with 10 different guys. I kid you not. He went on to tell me that he regularly hooks up here with other guys behind the bf's back.
I don't know if he's a top, bottom, or versatile, and I hope he used condoms for each encounter, but there are other STDs besides HIV you can pick up even with condom use. Am I wrong, or is this totally irresponsible behavior? Personally I find the whole cheating thing reprehensible, but that's their business and totally beside the point. But fucking or being fucked by all these guys, and then coming home and possibly infecting your bf--who cluelessly thinks he's in a monogamous relationship--with an STD is unfathomable to me. I just don't get it. I've heard enough stories like this to know that this situation is not an anomaly among gay guys.
If you've heard enough stories supposedly, then why are you foaming in your mouth over this one?
You write like an 85-year-old, OP. Are you 85 years old?
You kinda sound like a pearl clutcher, OP. Some people enjoy sex without restraint. Stop worrying about whether or not everyone else is safe. Just worry about if you're being safe. Worry about your sex life.
I write like the OP, R2 and I'm a mere 43. and I feel the same sentiments. Pray tell, R2, are you twelve?
I agree with the OP.
It helps to be unrealistic about the risks and to minimize the impact in your relationship. It's one thing to imagine yourself as the gym buddy, but how many of us want to be the unsuspecting bf in this situation?
I've come to the conclusion that we need to rethink our attitudes and actions regarding safe sex. There is no such thing as safe sex; there is only safer sex. And even then, it's not that safe. If I had a quarter for every time a friend or acquaintance told me he seroconverted even though he was using condoms, I'd be fabulously wealthy.
Would it be possible for gay men to limit the number of partner they have? Could we change the way gay men think about sex? Would young gays listen if we told them to find a partner and be faithful?
Sexual addiction? My friend has lost three really good management jobs because of his sexual addiction. He's extremely good at hooking up with hot to death tricks (despite being chubby and older), but not sharp enough to realize he's not playing his bosses as well as he thinks he is.
He's working part-time retail now.
I'm not irresponsible. Some may be but it's not like women. Nothing like those sluts and whores.
[quote] If I had a quarter for every time a friend or acquaintance told me he seroconverted even though he was using condoms, I'd be fabulously wealthy.
Right. Because they would be so eager to admit to you that they were barebacked while high or drunk. Everybody knows that's something people are very forthcoming about.
Straight men are even less responsible when it comes to sex, perhaps it's a male thing.
Men are whores.
If he had sex with 10 guys in four days, I can be happy for him and his success and not disparage him for it.
r11, yeah but straight men don't have to worry about HIV!! It's almost impossible for a man to get it from a woman here in the western world
I think it's crap to always turn this around to but straight men do this & that. Let's face reality, there might be women sluts but there are no way in the high numbers of gay male sluts. And those slutty women are probably looking at the guys with status, money, power or celebrity.
So while your gay guy is busy hooking up with multiples, your average straight guy is watching porn and self pleasuring. There's a lot less worry about stds when you do that.
R10 is right. It's much harder to get HIV when using condoms. You almost have to TRY to do something TO get it, like have bleeding gums or open sores or cuts and then get cum or blood in them. Condom use reduces the chances of HIV transmission to very low levels. HENCE THE IMPORTANCE of them. What kind of animalistic pig sex are those friends of R7's having?
I was the bf in my last relationship. Found out he was on hook up websites and fucking around a lot, had to get tested for HIV and STDs, and on top of it I was heartbroken. Luckily nothing but I don't think I'll ever trust anyone again like I did before that relationship.
Darlin' your gym friend is a whore, a dirty whore.
OP is not 85. 25, more likely. The elders amongst us understand.
Will you feel bad OP when your friend's bf becomes HIV+ or gets some other disease because you didn't say anything about his cheating.
You're sitting in judgment of this guy being a whore but seems to me you've got some pretty cavalier attitude yourself with your "I find the whole cheating thing reprehensible, but that's their business and totally beside the point. "
If you don't even question that you have a moral responsibility to warn this guy then you have no room to talk about how bad gay men are acting.
You're part of the problem.
Where exactly in Cancun can one find this hot, slutty men? Taking notes for my next trip.
Why even have a bf then?
He must not be very picky.
That's my point, R10. I hunk the problem is that we've said it's great to be promiscuous, so long as you wear a condom. The problem is that it requires 100% compliance, and we all know humans aren't perfect. As to believing what I'm told, I've known several guys who most here on DL would call condom nazis, that seroconverted. The common thread was that they were all having a lot of sex with multiple partners.
The whole movement toward marriage equality has given me a great deal of hope that we can finally normalize same sex relationships. It's hard to imagine the impact that discounting our relationships has had on our ability to commit to one guy and build a life together.
I'm not trying to be sex negative or judgemental. I just can't help but feel that the condom fairy tale has failed, and it's time for a new approach to bring down the number of seroconversions.
Why on earth would a gym aquaintance share something so secret and personal with someone like you? Doesn't he have facebook?
The issue isn't how many guys you have sex with. The issue is that this jackass is cheating on his boyfriend who thinks he is in a monogamous relationship. By all means, be a whore. But if you are in a relationship, at least be honest about it and clearly define with your partner what kind of relationship you have. Asking for honesty in a relationship is hardly being sex negative or pearl clutching.
You're an idiot, R21.
How the hell is it OP's responsibility to inform the bf of a mere gym acquaintance?
You need to TELL the bf.
For the OP. (get ready to clutch those pearls!)
What is the Horse Fair?
The Horse Fair (Fickstutenmarkt) is a private event that takes place irregularly in clubs in Berlin, Hamburg, Leipzig, Mannheim, Brussels and
Amsterdam. Here, willing mares offer themselves to stallions without ever seeing their faces.
Like all horse fairs, this one has strict rules.
Before the event begins, every participant has to decide whether he wants to take part either as a mare or as a stallion.
It is not possible to change roles once the market begins!
On the day of the fair, the mares arrive before the stallions. The naked mares have their hands bound and are blindfolded.
Then the stallions appear and can fully inspect the shackled mares at their leisure.
When a stallion has decided on a mare, he leads the mare untied to a covering place of his choice.
When the stallion has finished covering the mare, this mare is then available for covering by other stallions.
R21 is retarded. Yeah, let's all run around with bullhorns announcing every bit of gossip we hear, in case someone could be at risk.
r30, sounds like something Lucretia (Lucy Lawless) from Spartacus would host.
[quote]Would it be possible for gay men to limit the number of partner they have?
Well, that's certainly what every qualified medical expert recommends, right after "use a condom every time." But gay men willfully refuse to acknowledge the role of promiscuity in spreading AIDS and other STDs. They also choose to ignore the lesson of our recent history – acting as if AIDS is a complete anomaly, and that no other fatal STD will ever emerge and rapidly spread amidst a promiscuous community.
I read a white paper probably 10 years ago or so that posited if the average gay man cut the number of his lifetime sexual partners in half, AIDS would be stopped in its tracks. But that would require us to sacrifice for the greater good. In other words, fat chance.
Comparing ourselves to straight men is just a dodge. The issue is honesty and respect for the guys we call our boyfriends. Sexual temptation is always out there but we don't always have to act on it. There is something called self-discipline. I want monogamy but it's obviously not for everyone. I think OP's story is awful and I don't know why we treat each other so shamefully.
Hearing shit like this makes me hate other gay men.
Straight men don't have to worry about AIDS?
What 'spouse' goes alone on a vacation like that? The length of their relationship must be measured in months, not years.
But it's wrong!... [italic]Shockingly[/italic] wrong!
OP, this so-called 'cheating' IS none of your business, but you decided to make it your business anyway and instead of replying to the 10-guys-in-4-days (amateur!) acquaintance, you haul your indignation over to DL to stir up shit.
you're a coward, OP, a blithering coward.
if you weren't clutching your peals so tightly then some oxygen could get to your brain and you'd either put up or shut up.
[quote]If you don't even question that you have a moral responsibility to warn this guy then you have no room to talk about how bad gay men are acting. You're part of the problem.
What an idiot you are, R21.
Charming, just charming.
This guy and I have been gym acquaintances for years, so we've always had some mostly superficial chatting. Even before he had this bf (going on approx a year and a half), he would tell me about random hookups here and there when he was single. Nothing too crazy. So, yes, what he revealed last night kind of shocked me. I've never met the bf, though I have seen pics. I don't know him, and I don't have a responsibility to say anything to him. I don't even know his name, so I wouldn't be able to contact him if I wanted to.
There will always be damaged people, straight and gay, who seek meaning or belonging through getting laid. I'm with R34 and R25 on the idea of normalizing same sex relationships. The majority of people are pretty conventional and we'll be better off when not just a majority of us are conventional but we're not called pearl clutchers because of it. We'll get there.
I have sex, I love sex. For a long time I confused being sex positive with being a human drive thru. Then I grew up and became my own gay man. But it wasn't easy in the gay culture around me. We'll get there. That's threatening to a lot of people in the gay world but change is inevitable.
The problem isn't the sex - that's a symptom. The problem is that the guy is a selfish, duplicitous shit.
[quote]I hunk the problem is that we've said it's great to be promiscuous,
I think we know what you meant to write R25, but your slip is interesting.
A good reason to use a condom is so that the 3rd or 4th guy of the night doesn't see the sperm ooze from his predecessors and jump to the conclusion that you a little loose.
Straight men can have sex their whole lives, whereas gay men have only a limited amount of time. You have to learn to be efficient with your opportunities and literally cram in as much as you can.
OP, just fuck him and get it over with.
[quote]For a long time I confused being sex positive with being a human drive thru.
I'm with you, mate.
I think you just made diamonds, OP.
You squeezed the fuck out of those pearls, in any case.
r36, it's a minimal risk for straight men unless they screw a chick in the ass and she is positive. Most straight men are safe
I don't understand how some straight men can be so irresponsible when it comes to getting women pregnant when they aren't trying to have a baby, OP.
"Most straight men are safe"
Not a huge risk of HIV, but they do get other STDs and unplanned pregnancies. They're totally astonished every time, as if super-cheap preventatives weren't available everywhere.
I agree with R44. I don't necessarily have a problem with sleeping with many different people (I don't, it's not my thing, but go ahead, please). It's the cavalier attitude towards the partner by this dipshit, and by WAY too many posting here, that bothers me.
A man can't get a woman pregnant unless the woman lets him.
Gay straight or bi, men are MEN, and men tend to be irresponsible when it comes to sex. Don't blame gay men. If it were just gay men being irresponsible, there wouldn't be so many women running around with STDs and babies.
keep deflecting r56, gay men are FAR MORE at risk for many negative things
Indeed, R45, and I proofread everything I write out of habit making this "slip" doubly intriguing. I can blame the original slip on autocorrect and not liking the iPad keyboard, but why didn't I see it on the second read? And who uses the word "hunk" anymore? I confess, I was one of those sex-positive guys who thought I could fuck mindlessly so long as I used condoms. I was wrong. I encouraged others to engage in the same behavior, which I now see as reckless. I promulgated what I'm calling the condom fairy tale, somehow when I was a young gay man, absorbing he idea that I was supposed to have a lot of sex. And I did, with a lot of guys I would call "hunk." So, maybe it was my inner voice that I could hear saying, "Oh sure, you've had your fun, and now you're going to try and tell others they shouldn't?"
Part of the legacy of institutionalized homophobia is that some gay men, when they are free to be sexual beings, suspend all moral judgement. And they encourage other gay men to do the same. This is precisely how someone like OP's acquaintance justifies cheating on and lying to his partner, and putting him at risk.
Will gay marriage change things? One hopes.
It's tru, R59, good observation... I do blame homophobia to a large degree for our bad behaviour. Until parents can raise a gay child with the same optimism and value as they raise straight kids the odds favor the gay kids going off on their own into a hyper sexualized culture where anything goes and moral judgement is suspended.
I'm not saying don't be a whore if you want to be a whore, but be one with your eyes wide open and not because everybody else is or seems to be jumping in the lake. When I was young and malleable and getting out of one world that rejected me and into another that was one big Atlantis cruise, I made a lot of choices I wish I'd made differently in retrospect. So many influences conspire to make us that slutty girl in high school who everybody fucked because she was under the sad, mistaken belief putting out for everybody was going to give her a place to belong.
Men are either faithful or not. All the pearl clutching on earth won't change that.
Oh look, another meeting of the Church Ladies League. Where are the sticky buns and coffee? Have a blessed day.
R61, I take it any discussion of the basis for monogamy/fidelity/not cheating/whatever you call it, is what you're referring to as pearl clutching?
Is it a bad thing in your view to discuss how, as a culture, we see relationships?
Just accept it. Things are the way they are.
I agree with you, that's an excellent conversation to have. However, I think what people may be reacting to here is OP's sanctimony and self-righteousness with respect to the actions of a single casual acquaintance. If his post had been more along the lines of yours, we'd probably be having a much more constructive conversation -- some of us, at least.
I actually didn't find OP sanctimonious or self-righteous. You can't really discuss behaviour without having an opinion on it. Sometimes an opinion is more subjective than objective.
The problem for guys like OP (and all people really) is we're making our way in the world with people like the subject of his post. Somewhere out there is a boyfriend who's getting fucked over and absent telepathy or CIA level surveillance, he's at the mercy of his boyfriend's moral code.
It sucks for decent guys. Not that there's much to be done about it. We're all responsible either only to ourselves or to ourselves and others, as much as we can.
Surprised Charlie hasn't weighed in yet.
[quote]I actually didn't find OP sanctimonious or self-righteous. You can't really discuss behaviour without having an opinion on it. Sometimes an opinion is more subjective than objective.
I see your point. However, OP titled his post "I don't understand how some gay men can be so irresponsible when it comes to sex." Irresponsibility when it comes to sex and irresponsibility when it comes to relationships are two different things. In this instance, I think it's more important to focus not on how his friend cheated, but that he cheated in the first place. What I found disingenuous and annoying is that he mentioned the depth of his friend's cheating while claiming not to be sex-negative, which is very much beside the point. And then he brought in the issue of whether or not his friend was having unprotected sex with all these guys when he didn't really know one way or the other. So I think it's hard for him to justify using this particular experience as a springboard for a conversation about sexual irresponsibility in particular.
But I'm splitting hairs, here. Bored on a lazy Sunday morning, I guess.
Well, in fairness, it's a safe bet around here that anybody taking a position other than pre lube, spread legs and the line forms on the left is going to get Mary'd to death so maybe it was a pre emptive strike.
I agree with your point that how is cheated is far less important than that he did. I think we can all agree cheating sucks. There's a thousand shoddy ways to do it and one's not really worse than the other, though some may be more sordid.
I try my best not to judge the behavior of others. If someone wants to have a lot of sex, with a lot of different guys - more power to you.
If someone is in a relationship and they're fucking around on their boyfriend, it's none of my business. I don't know what arrangement they have.
As for the safety aspect, you are the guardian of your own safety. Only you can protect you.
Life is an STD, R51.
Because men are self-centered assholes, incapable of truly loving?
Because a lot of men, gay or straight, are self-centered assholes, only concerned about getting their rocks off and incapable of truly loving. To make matters worse, they hide behind some long ago dimissed biological imperative bullshit to rationalize their sleezy behavior.
There, I fixed it for you, R72.
I'm glad to see the shift. Five years ago on here there might have been just one of two people talking about a different standard for gay relationships. Times and the culture are changing.
Truth bomb: people, gay or straight, male or female, have been looking for sex outside their relationships or marriages since the beginning of time. In your garden variety heterosexual marriage, the issue of fidelity is often tied up with other things: children, financial arrangements, etc, which serve as deterrents or, at least, an incentive to cover up one's tracks better since the consequences are generally more costly.
R70, I am with you on every single word.
Allow me to raise a glass to R74. Thank you. It's very easy to fall prey to the R62s of the world who just want to call us names for trying to pass some knowledge down. This idea that we live in Ayn Rand's world and can and should only care about ourselves has got to come to an end (and I'm sorry for flame throwing that crazy bitch's name into the discussion; it is not my intent to throw flames, but the description fits), and specifically among gays because our behavior is literally killing us.
I've been percolating this idea of trying to reshape the gay psyche for a while. Maybe now is the time. We're on the cusp of a major sociological shift, and if we can get the Supreme Court to strike down the opposition to gay marriage, it will be an enormous step forward. We still have to contend with the vast ignorance and prejudice of the religious right who are perfectly happy to foster a climate where gay kids are ostracized, gay men are devalued, and gay relationships are punished rather than rewarded. The trick now is to hang on and nurture the younger generation that believes in equality, to the chagrin of everyone from the Pope to Tony Perkins.
So, to bring this back to OP's original supposition, I think he's in the perfect position to do something really quite helpful. His gym acquaintance is just that, and his risk in letting his partner know is low. What, he'll lose the passing pleasantries of someone in the gym? As opposed to what the boyfriend stands to lose, that's paltry. In other circumstances, I would agree, mind your own business. But this is different. Having been in situations where I wish someone would have just taken me aside and said, "hey, this is happening, and I think you should know," find a way to tell him, even anonymously.
At the end of the day, we can't all be community leaders, and it takes a special type of person to be a Harvey Milk. But if, in some small way, we act like a community that cares about one-another, we can make it better.
Mexicans dont do it for me .......Spaniards on the other hand....no matter where you go in the world you have to be ultra safe. And stop whining and blaming everyone else when you sero convert if youre that stupid not to have safe sex.
I like R15. And don't forget the lying and bragging of straight men.
[quote]Straight men can have sex their whole lives, whereas gay men have only a limited amount of time. You have to learn to be efficient with your opportunities and literally cram in as much as you can.
by: WTF does this even mean?
R80 -- It's the cherished DL belief that gay men are only desirable (and therefore eligible) for sex between their teens and 35 (at the latest).
Talk about views that need to change. Gay men are (once again) living to old age.
We need to radically redefine gay culture. Cause a lot of it sucks.
R80, I'm not the person who posted that, but I'm going to take a guess.
It thing it means that most gay men have a limited window to enjoy a slutty phase.