I've only recently become aware of this. I'm in my 50's and just recently received an unexpected phone call from someone I had graduated from high school with...way back when. I haven't given a thought to high school since I left...moved away from the town where I was raised, went to college, settled on the west coast and that was that. This former classmate somehow tracked me down (I have an unlisted number) and was badgering me about attending our 40th reunion. She mentioned that our class has a Facebook page and urged me look it up.
I did and was shocked at how many of the people I graduated with seem rather obsessive about finding out all about other classmates and setting up files regarding where these classmates now live and the ones who have died, etc., etc, etc.
Personally, I find this bizarre. I did not hate high school and was actually fairly popular, but once I left, I was gone. Some of these people seem to be hanging on for dear life.
The two types who become obsessed with high school are: 1) the ones who weren't popular but really wanted to be- and want to go back and do it right this time and 2) the popular ones who peaked in h.s., and want to go back and live there forever and ever and ev...
She's getting kickbacks from your reunion venue based on headcount, OP.
Yes, it is kind of strange. A friend from high school ended up moving near my sister and they both had babies on the same day, so the close proximity, the old connection and that they had kids the same age meant they hung around with each other a lot. On holidays when I would see my sister this old friend would stop by and chew my ear off about high school. At one point she asked me if I too wish we were back there and I blurted out, "hell no!" She actually seemed perplexed by my reaction and stated that high school was the best time of her life. I looked across the room at her husband and child and felt real pity for them.
I'm facebook friends with a lot of people I went to school with, and I'm nosy as fuck and love seeing what people have done with their lives. But not obsessive and I don't interact with many of them outside of FB.
I don't have this so much with people from high school, but I do have it with people from my college. I hate it if they won't talk about anything else. Tell me about your job, or your kids, or what movies you've seen, or books you've read. College was only four years of our lives.
I've got a lot of people on my FB list who I graduated high school with. I only really correspond with one of them, when we need to make fun of one of the others for basically keeping high school alive three decades later. We've got one like OP mentions, too--she emailed me a list, a long, long list of names of people on Facebook from our class, including all the married and maiden names for the girls--it was creepy. On top of everything else, she was always sending people prayers, talking about her husband needing work, and getting weepy over her son's fatty liver. Yes: a total republican frau. Defriended.
[quote]I'm in my 50's
I hope you realize you were the last age group that was told a high school diploma would support you.
Older family members are dealing with plenty of old contacts via Facebook. They are all over 50 and looking for long lost 'friends'.
1. It's what you are told to do when you first learn to 'network'
2. It's people who need insurance that they aren't the only ones who have aged
3. It's people who are looking for self esteem
Actually, most of the people I know are like this so I always thought I was the weirdo for doing the equivalent of feeling 'em, fucking 'em, and forgetting 'em when it came to high school and college.
[quote] On top of everything else, she was always sending people prayers, talking about her husband needing work, and getting weepy over her son's fatty liver.
Tell me more about this son...
[quote]I've only recently become aware of this.
I think it's a bit of a cliche that some people peak in high school and spend the rest of their sad lives reliving that "glory". It's practically a stock character in films and television.
I recently have made successful attempts to get in touch with some old friends from HS. But they were real friends and I wanted to know how they were... class of 1971 so I am going quite far back. I am not obsessed at all- just curious. In one case she has become quite Republican and very very into saving homeless dogs and cats. A good cause but a bit of a one note samba and bizarre juxaposed with Republican politics. I still like her although not a lot in common politically although I do love animals and contribute to pet shelters and have for years. The other turned into a wonderful day skiing after 40 years ( we were ski buddies in HS.) He is very much the same- has raised a family and his and my politics match and my being gay neither phased him nor surprised him. We have made tentative plans to ski in Jackson Hole next winter.
No obsession- just interest and in one case a renewal of old friendship perhaps. I have to say I find Facebook a bit odd and the contant posting of some of my "friends" obsessive. I read through the "stories" about once per week and sometimes comment. But I could never do what they do.
I think as gay people we have even less in common with people we went to high school with.
Just recently set up a FB profile, and have re-connected with some of my old friends from HS, but also friends made later with whom I haven't stayed in touch.
It's fun to compare how you look and where you're at next to your peers not just in age but in background.
Today in the dentist's office, I read an article about war medicine and how a WW1 French MD termed the mental problems following the trauma of battle as "nostalgia."
My Dad ran into health problems when I hit 13 so we never ended up moving into that palatial residence and stayed where we were. I did okay as far as popularity in high school but I broke out at 15 and started hanging out in a better neighborhood across the way. I've always felt I was better than the people I went to high school. Even looking back now, I know why I didn't find a kindred soul from my school and to this day we have not turned out any greats. I know Mariah Carey even attended the junior high for awhile. She's tacky so she doesn't count. Thank God for Facebook so I can see how it all worked out. In the long run, I'll probably be the most famous and successful of them all. Nothing worse than knowing back then that you were better and nothing better than reading FB profiles today to know I was right all along.
Being an adult in the modern age means learning to define yourself outside of the confines of social media (glorified tab keeping and Jones pissing) and pre-fab life hall-markers perpetuated by the media (prom, high school graduation, college, etc). Not surprising you feel this way OP considering how being genuine is a lost art form these days
I was alerted by my brother of several high-school classmates who got in touch with each other at facebook. They're friends. My brother and I were graduates from the late-1980s. This is obvious bullshit. But it's funny.
My 70+ neighbor is obsessed with her high school days. She was a popular cheerleader and she's told me the stories over and over and over. I try to avoid her but when that fails...KILL ME NOW!
I'm obsessed with junior high cuz I waz not able to gradate ninth grade after 3 atemptz. But i done good with my life.
Wouldn't go back to that time in my life. Would never want to contact anyone from that point in my life.
When I got a reunion notice a couple years ago I went to their Facebook page for the event, poked around a bit, even did some follow up searches for guys I thought were hot back in the day. Really wish I hadn't.
Learn from my mistake! Remember them as they were.
PS. On a somewhat related note, open casket funerals are a bad idea in my opinion, but that's a discussion for another thread.
I don't want to see anyone from my past. It was fun at the time, but if someone is meant to be in my life they are. If someone isn't in my life, there's good reason.
I think using social media to dig up every one you've ever known goes against the laws of the universe. Time is a continuum, the past should stay there. It's the natural order of things.
R24 is rightly wracked with guilt over the things he did.
I went to a small high school. Terrible time of life, terrible place. It was like a small dysfunctional town. So no, I don't long for these days, and I never thought of those people until Facebook came along and they started "friending" me.
Some of them turned out to be rightwing gun nut fundies, no surprise. And some turned out to be just as bullying and mean as they were 30 years ago.
Massive defriendings followed, though I am grateful to be back in touch with one or two of my HS friends.
Well, for some folks it was their golden period.
My HS days were hell, but I developed skills and a personality that made me far more successful as an adult.
I haven't kept in touch with many folks from my HS or even my college days. I connected with a bunch when I first joined Facebook. But if all they want to talk about is "Remember when," then it's not interesting.
The people I still talk to, we can talk about our lives as they are now, with a VERY LIGHT sprinkling of "remember when."
Even creepier: parents who must attend every game their kid plays in, so long as they somehow get back onto the h.s. grounds. They peaked at 17, and they miss those hallowed halls.
[quote]I've only recently become aware of this. I'm in my 50's and just recently received an unexpected phone call from someone I had graduated from high school with.... I haven't given a thought to high school since I left.... This former classmate somehow tracked me down (I have an unlisted number) and was badgering me about attending our 40th reunion. She mentioned that our class has a Facebook page and urged me look it up.
Facebook is impressive. In a good and bad way. My sibling informed me last year of a number of ex-high school class mates who are on there. For the hell of it, I looked them up. (I don't use my name on Facebook.) There are some people who have used other high school class mates as friends. Even ones who didn't hang together during high school. And if it weren't for Facebook, their list would be really short.
[quote]I ... was shocked at how many of the people I graduated with seem rather obsessive about finding out all about other classmates....
It's a curiosity. It doesn't have to be done directly in person and can be handled through the Internet. So these people probably figure there is no harm. It is apparently interesting to find out if a class mate had died -- whether it was recent or five or ten years ago. (Cause of death, too.)
[quote]Personally, I find this bizarre. I did not hate high school and was actually fairly popular, but once I left, I was gone. Some of these people seem to be hanging on for dear life.
I did not like the majority of the people who were in my class. A number of them were snobs. They predictably fell into cliques.
I don't have the same feelings as I did back in the 1980s. I can be positive and say that "I wish well for my high school graduating class." That, to me, is healthy.
High School to me was nothing special, more painful memories than positive ones, and I can't think of many folks I'd be interested in seeing again particularly. I suppose it'd mean more for folks who didn't go to college later.
Unclench everyone. It can be interesting to see how people have changed. You can laugh about all the things you took so seriously that, after all these years, you learned were not important at all. And, the older you get, the more real experiences you have in common: death of parents, siblings, spouses, children, and, of course, high school friends. And everyone's own illnesses and those of our spouses.
I wasn't out in high school but was getting near the closet door as I said goodbye to small town America. There's a whole cadre of closeted folks who are now open and bring spouses to reunions as well.
If it brings up bad memories, then you shouldn't do it obviously. But at a recent reunion - which had a large attendance due to facebook - no one was trying to relive their "glory days" so you can put that stereotype to rest.
I fb friended 4 people from high school and that's all I want. I've never gone to a reunion and from what I've heard I never will.
Reading this thread got me curious. I haven't been to a high school reunion since my 5th reunion. I found my high school reunion Facebook page from last year. Everybody who had liked the page still lived in the shithole town I grew up in. I left right out of high school.
Many of the people who hung out in high school seem to be still hanging out together 30+ years later. My younger sister is this way. I don't get it. I've lived in 6 different cities since leaving home.
I prefer to look forward, not backward.
My last encounter with a fellow high school classmate was over 20 years ago, when we were thrown together briefly because of work.
I attended a private school K - 8 with about 30 kids per graduating class, each year divided into two homerooms/sections; there are a handful of us who continued on to HS together. Of that grade school "cohort" I ran across one person a couple of years back, and it was a bit awkward. Most of them seem to be still living back on the east coast near (enough to) the school.
I'm only obsessed with it in that I hope to become very successful and my private Catholic prep school asks me for a donation.
Then, I'll tell them: No.
You find it here too, ex. the Gym Class thread. Many find it very hard to move on. Whether it's from being popular or made fun of. I find both types to be kind of pathetic.
It's hilarious that you elderly cunts are bitching about people being nostalgic for high school when you FILL DL with nostalgia threads about I Love Lucy and one-hit-wonders from the 70s.
There is no comparison.
r7 meant to say her high school chums need "assurance," since they have they have car, house, and life "insurance."
Of course there is, R39. Now run off to the Victor Mature Nude or Jackie Mason threads and spread your cheer there.
R38 The word obsess does not mean the same thing as the word nostalgic.
R42, you know I am correct. It's the same fucking thing.
I was a complete loner, didn't have a single friend in High School. So definately wouldn't want to go to any reunion or see anymore from that time.
I was the faggot in HS and had no friends. Have never gone back or looked back.
Reading the Facebook posts of school classmates from my small town, it seems that most wish they could return to the innocent and carefree days of high school. So many of them are dealing with family, health, or financial issues, and their high school memories give them comfort. Of course, for most gays, high school was the toughest period in our lives and we'd never want to go back.
"... you FILL DL with nostalgia threads about I Love Lucy and one-hit-wonders from the 70s"
For some us, the only bright spot at the time were the friendly faces on the television. They were our virtual friends, and taught us how to live and interact.
I don't think I'd have survived without TV.
I know a lot of people for whom high school was traumatic, and I understand that. I also get that for some people with bogged-down adult lives, high school was a highlight and now an object of nostalgia.
For me it was just this long period waiting to become an adult and move someplace interesting (which I did). It has no hold over me one way or the other.
The couple of reunion invites I received seemed to have been put together by the exact same people who were rah-rah school-spirit when we were teenagers. That's fine, but it's weird to get emails saying things like "Hello, Mortville Lions!" from someone in their thirties. I haven't been a "Lion" for 20 years.
Such a variety of responses here. I remain close with six friends from high school, and now their spouses--phone, email, Facebook, occasional visits when we're in each others' cities for work. We hardly ever talk about high school, but mostly about work, politics, their kids, future plans, health, travel, books, etc. They're just normal, adult relationships. I've been to two reunions and enjoyed the events because I got to see them all at the same time, as well as people of whom I'd lost track.
I was friendly with lots of kids in my high school class, although had barely any real friends. I now feel my "friendly loner" classification is the very best one for enjoying a quick reconnect or school reunion. I went to school with some very cool people who do lots of interesting and also mundane things. I am happy to see or chat with whoever wants to say hi on Facebook. I guess I've mellowed?
this is something i suffer from. Im 26 and my life has gotten consistently worst since high school. My dad died the summer after graduation, my life long best friend in 2007 and my other best friend since middle school in 2010. I honestly miss my high school days.
I was actually on the committee for my 30th reunion that was held this past summer. I got dragged into the job a bit, but due to my nosy nature, found that I enjoyed searching out our lost classmates which is what they assigned me.
I find it interesting to see where people ended up, what they're doing, etc but it ends with curiosity. I really don't care about keeping in touch with 95% of them.
The whole time I was doing it, I was sure that there were plenty of people out there who were thinking "get a life, H.S. is over", and the thought that they were thinking of me as a loser bothered me a bit.
Anyway, give the girl/guy a break. I've found many people DO want to be contacted and were glad we got in touch. If the person keeps bugging you after the reunion ends, then that's weird, but it sounds like you think you're better than them because you don't give a shit. They probably don't give a shit about you either, so get off your high horse.
I liked high school and had a good time, but I don't even think about it. College I loved and would do it all over again if that was possible.
It can be interesting to talk about "the old days"...for about 30 minutes. After that I am ready to move on. Some people want to bask in the glory they felt back then and only see the past through rose colored glasses. Much different perspective if you weren't in the popular groups.
What I find amusing is that when you say to them that your high school experience isn't remembered with the same warm & fuzzies they always seem perplexed. I guess they only want to recall the good times not the shit ones that stay with you more (at least in my case).
High school was weird for me - I was sort of popular with the nerdy group, because I was in the honor's track, and I lifted weights, but my senior year, my life fell apart, for reasons I can't even now, 30 years later, understand.
And then college at a Big Ten university? Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire! Freshman year at college is already one of the hardest experiences to go through; add in my state of mind then, and wow, it's no wonder it pains me to even think about those days.
Interestingly, another family member and I broached the subject of those difficult times when we saw each other over this past Thanksgiving, and I'm not sure if he has ever seen me cry, but he did on this occasion - not crazy, all-out sobbing, just a tear and some red eyes. It really brought much of that pain right on back, again, which is why I avoid thinking and talking about high school and college.
Oh, come on, R55. Spill. We want [italic]details[/italic].
I went to my 30th reunion and hated every second of it. Growing up in San Francisco you'd think people would have traveled or done more interesting things with their lives. But it was mostly boring stories about their kids or 'do you remember when we...' kind of things.
Trying to talk politics was toxic. I was astonished how many people I hadn't seen in 30 years were either 1) corporate sellouts (tobacco lobbyist, Wal-Mart spokesperson) or 2) trying so hard to impress me (Me: 'Hi Lee, how are you'. Lee: 'Awful, my BMW's been in the shop for a week'. Me: 'Not bad, Lee, took you all of 4 seconds to bring up your BMW'). We were the anti-war, anti-establishment generation. We were supposed to change the world with our idealism and we fucked it up worse than our parents ever did.
I made it through the evening by trying to remember what all the guys looked like naked back in gym class (what a shame Bill didn't have any sons to inherit his big-dick genes, I'm surprised Tom had any kids at all with that micro-penis of his, etc).
AFAIK, I was the only 'mo there. Even the drinks were bad. At least nobody asked me if I was ever attracted to them 'back then'
I already have my excuses ready when they call for my 40th in 2015.
I went to a school of 4000 in Chicago, 1000 per division. Out of all those people, I had maybe 10 friends, but none of them were good friends. I've never attended any reunions, and our 40th just happened.
People were coming out of the woodwork for the 40th- my old flame and other people contacted me to see if I was going. Interestingly enough, everyone who moved to the West Coast (including myself) are in the entertainment industry and nobody wanted to go.
Turns out they had about 80 people attend- I looked at the pictures, and it seemed pretty boring.
I went to an all-boys Catholic high school. It was hell. I was geeky and gay and the school was all about sports and competitiveness. Of course I had no friends. I hated every minute and couldn't wait to get out.
I enjoyed college and made friends, but none of those friendships lasted more than a decade after graduation. I've never been to any reunions for high school or college and don't plan to.
I've found my most lasting and meaningful friendships were made in adulthood.
I legally changed my name at 20 years-old and when I occasionally run into people from highvschool and they say "Are you J? I say no, ask if they want to see my driver's license and walk away like they made a mistake. It works.
I deleted fb account because of all of this crap.
I showed up to the 25th reunion, it was just interesting enough and just boring enough to make me glad I went, and glad to have crossed it off the bucket list. Forever.
It was weird the way some of the women there were all effusively friendly. I was a bespectacled nerd in high school, later came out as gay. No one except my little tribe of outcasts and misfits ever gave me the time of day, back then. At the reunion I got hugged and "loved up" by several of these classmates, several of whom were drunk. It was like they were trying to recast the past into a story where our demographically thrown-together high school class, in all its actual dysfunction, is now one big happy family because these girls, now women, will it so.
I only graduated from high school in 2009 but it's interesting how I already lost contact with all my male classmates. We were really close and went partying almost every friday night but after high school was over there was just nothing we had in common anymore-I'm pretty obiously gay and they were all rather masculine type of guys and high school (besides alcohol) was basically the only thing we had in common. I saw them a couple of times after that and all they talked about were their bloody hook ups and girlfriends and I just felt kind of alienated among them. That was the only time I regreted being gay because they were awesome and I'm pretty sure we would become friends for life (MARY!!) had I been straight.
I loved your post, r57!
What I find horrible is that the work world feels so much like high school. Americans, in general, don't like to grow up and move on. One of the reasons is that they are addicted to youth. Americans hate to grow old. High school is the last time many people felt free ( when they weren't paying bills, raising children, having real adult relationships, smoking pot all day).
I went to a private boys' school all my life. I hated high school. I was called a fag every day, insulted by teachers, who weren't that much more mature than my classmates, and hoping to hell that I could get out. Youth was all about conformity, finger pointing, and judging other people by standards no one could meet. I was 17. Who wants to be 17 again? Every year out of high school feels like being off the chain gang.
ITA @ R64. I have no curiosity about the people I went to school with way back when either. I don't understand people who do. Those people are strangers now.
I think it varies by region and whether or not you went to a public or Catholic school. I know that when I lived in Chicago I was amazed by how clannish people were. Educated professionals in their 40's were still hanging out with the people they went to Saint Mary H.S. with.
If I dated a guy it was guaranteed that by the third date I would be sitting having drinks with somebody from his school and hearing about how mean old Sister Catherine Elizabeth was.
[quote]If I dated a guy it was guaranteed that by the third date I would be sitting having drinks with somebody from his school and hearing about how mean old Sister Catherine Elizabeth was.
God, that is the worst.
Facebook has made high school reunions obsolete. You can now see what your old classmates look like and what they've been up to by just browsing their FB profiles. It's great in that you can contact the people who you like and avoid those you don't.
This thread is filled with very long posts about hating high school and not caring about seeing them ever again.
R9, you're why I come here.
I'm 31, our reunion. when it came up, was suddenly canceled. Which sucks because our school is now closed, bought out by the local university. We had a pretty new building and everything.
I have to admit that I quite enjoyed a recent conversation with old schoolmates. We talked about the past, the parties, the grudges and friction. We smoked and drank a bit and I missed school with them.
It was a good few hours and it would loose its specialness if it happened too often.
Agree with r66. I went to a podunk hick school out in the boondocks that had 100 kids in my graduating class. I knew everyone's business and their families business and they knew mine. Big deal.
When I moved to "the big city" I was amazed to find out cliquish and clannish the city high schools are and how the ADULTS still cling to this mentality.
Seriously, I've had 35 year-old men tell me that they hate doing business with so-and-so because "he went to XYZ high school". WTF? Who the fuck cares?
"it seems that most wish they could return to the innocent and carefree days of high school."
I find it almost impossible to imagine finding high school being "carefree". At that age I had huge issues to deal with, but I couldn't do a damn thing about them because I was still a kid.
I love adulthood! If an adult has a problem, they can actually do something about it! Or they can if they're smart and strong, unlike certain people who want to go back to being sheltered and dependent.
I'm 30 and I no longer keep in touch with my high school friends, in part because they seemed permanently stuck in those days. They even still make fun of a girl they used to pick on, who they haven't seen in over a decade and is probably off living a happy life. They also refer to past hs relationships with joke-y bitterness as if they had just happened. SO creepy.
People who hang onto high school are sad. Obviously it was the high point of their lives. It was was a very long time ago, and yet they still make a big deal of it. Sad.
I went to my 10th reunion and it was boring as hell - lots of showing off, who has the best job/makes the most money, standing around in cliques, etc. I skipped the 20th. We recently had our 30th and I decided to go, primarily because so many people are on FB and I'd had a chance to "talk" to some of them. Several of us also made a pact - "I'll go if you do" type of thing. It was very different from the last one I'd gone to actually sort of fun. Cliques and high school attitudes were gone completely and everyone was talking to everyone without regard to how someone was as a teenager. I was also amazed at how many former classmates were openly gay, some of whom brought their partners with them. No judging and everyone had fun.
High school memories are fine,though openly gay I had gone to school with 90% of my classmates my whole life so I never caught flack for being different.However,DONT look up old lovers and/or tricks,it NEVER ends well!They either look frightening,are dead or dying,or have failed at life! Trust me on that one,huge mistake!
The past is the past for a reason
I was so socially clumsy in high school. I was in my own little world and seldom noticed what went on around me so I never read the social signs. Example, I was invited to a party and after about 45 minutes I was bored and I thought it would be more fun to go home and work on some pet project. The girl who had the party asked if I was having fun and like a dimwit and with no malice whatsoever I answered telling her I was bored and wondered how I could get a ride home that soon. She started crying, I guess she thought I was trying to be mean. I threw a little gas on her fire by asking her why she was crying, we aren't friends, I don't even know why you invited me. Yeah I was that kid, not mean just socially dense.
I don't think I was invited to any other parties but I did eventually learn to be more diplomatic.
You posted this on a forum which obsesses about the "golden age" of Hollywood, old TV shows, ancient movies, etc. Know your audience sweetie.
[quote]They even still make fun of a girl they used to pick on, who they haven't seen in over a decade and is probably off living a happy life.
Their lives must be really sad and pitiful.
Wow. I graduated from high school in 1983 and I NEVER think about it at all. I have yearbooks from every year of school, but I guarantee that I have not even cracked one open in 25+ years. I have great memories of the time period with family and dear friends, but I never think about the school aspect of it.
I have never attended a reunion (back in the summer I tossed my 30th Reunion invitation into the trash and didn't even respond to it). I can't imagine being obsessed with school years.
I really thought about this thread, and the people I know who muse about high school days were also people who mused about childhood days when we were in highschool. It's a personality thing. Some people are constantly lamenting about the past and also feel like the best times have passed them by no matter what stage of their life they are actually in.
One friend of mine from high school who does this is a cop. He either talks about how great high school was or how great it will be when he can retire in 5, 4, 3, more years. They wish their life away.
The present is a vortex. Only the past or the future offer any hope for happiness.
I am thankful that I choose to live in "the now."
[quote]Some people are constantly lamenting about the past and also feel like the best times have passed them by no matter what stage of their life they are actually in.
I found a Facebook page for my home town, mostly focused on people who graduated from my high school, and it's amazing how there are about 50 topics and they repeat over and over and over.
The favorite drive-ins, the sports teams, the half a dozen memorable teachers, the stores and businesses from the 60's and 70's--they get discussed every 6 months, and it's the same people making the same posts.
I realize that's true of DataLounge or any internet forum to a certain extent, but this is a stagnate pool of about 100 people. It's almost like one of those primitive societies where the tribal knowledge is preserved and passed down through storytelling round the campfire.
This Is Why I Get Homeschooled.
I dated a guy who was 26 at the time and once a month he and his childhood friends would get together, sit in a bar or at someone's house, smoking and talking for many hours about high school. After a few times hearing about it, I asked him why they never go do things and create new memories and he had no answer other than that high school was the best time of their lives and it could never get better. Pathetic, IMO.
I almost went to my 20 year reunion last year and that would have been the first reunion for me. I cancelled at the last minute because the memories were too painful and they haven't gone away. When I looked at the pictures, there was one person that I know would have talked to me and been genuinely nice. The rest--no. I was surprised to see that the three most beautiful girls didn't attend. Maybe they all got fat. They definitely would have been the most scrutinized.