***The OFFICIAL speculation Thread*** for WHY the Pope has abdicated
Ding Dong the Pope is ... gone.
Was it a sex scandal to end all scandals? Picts of him and some boys from back in the day?
Was it ties to his Nazi past? Perhaps was personally responsible for sending people to their deaths?
Post your theories here and, please, if you have back up materials, post your links links links!
Sex abuse, plain and simple.
He was the offical in charge of the scandals and keeping them from going public.
The church as a vault, a file drawer with all those allegations of the abuse they collected over the years.
He has the key, and he will end up leaving with it so the church can survive, and with reduced liability.
So is this vault to be opened? r1?
And seems like even if he dies, the vault can be opened; a safe can be cracked?
No way will the Church let him resign in disgrace! This is not politics- until he resigns he is equal to God, correct?:
How about he's old and tired and feeble and wants to have some peace from all the bullshit before he dies?
The Dark Side has failed him.
Some type of dementia. He's had the look for many years.
Dementia. Everyone was aware of his past/oversight of sex abuse scandals before he was made Pope, so I don't think those things are a surprise.
My guess is that he wanted to shape his legacy so he left while he was still alive so he could have a role in appointing his successor.
r4 you don't get it. One doesn't [italic]quit[/italic] being Pope. The POPE is a lifetime position. He is the head of the Catholic Church. A church that stands as OLDEST CHRISTIAN INSTITUTION- It's not a fortune 500 company.
It's a calling from GOD, not a position. One doesn't just step down without major consequences.
This incident is the harbinger of a major shift withint the church.
Who let the cracker-eating, Mary-worshipping wingnut in here? Don't you need to go and stock up on fishsticks, R8?
Will he still be infallible?
He was found in bed with a Papal Bull.
Oh shut up, R10. Not every gay person is an atheist. Everything R8 stated is true. And for your information, dumbass, Catholics do not "worship" Mary. Educate yourself before you post your imbecilic opinions.
I have no idea why he's abdicating, but it's quite shocking. I did Nazi this coming.
Knock it off, r10. Reread r8 before flying off the handle because you think someone's on DL defending the Catholic Church. "Mary-worshipping wingnut"...stfu idiot.
R10 Right on, brother.
Apparently he's moving in with a bunch of nuns...
Pope will move to monastery of cloistered nuns
After stepping down, Pope Benedict XVI plans to live in a papal residence in the small Italian town of Castel Gandolfo, then return to Rome and live in a monastery of cloistered nuns inside the Vatican for a period of prayer and reflection, said Federico Lombardi, director of the Vatican press office.
r10. I'm not stating facts, nor my own personal beliefs.
I'm stating what the Catholic Church BELIEVES . Tell me they don't.
They have always claimed these things about their Pope and that is why this is a big deal.
Snort! I see what you did there r14!
LMAO @ r14 ... W&W
R8 is right. I just heard from God and she's pissed. She's going to send a flood to destroy the earth because the Pope resigned.
[quote]Not every gay person is an atheist.
Right, just the smart ones. Clinging to a religion that calls you intrinsically evil because of you who you are attracted to, and is spending millions of dollars to deprive you of your civil rights at every turn is imbecilic. You and your ilk are truly pathetic. Go fuck yourself then jump off a bridge.
What R22 said.
What r23 said.
What R24 said.
R 22, R 23, and R 24: passengers on the same shortbus as R 10. The Catholic Church is so much more than issues of sexuality. But because you have an all-consuming and corruptive hatred in your narrow-viewed minds, you'll never understand--or believe--otherwise.
Let's face it: the pope and just about every other Catholic clergymen, passed and present, is a criminal.
They've know what's been going on for centuries, and for centuries they've kept quiet about it. And for centuries, they didn't do a damn thing about it because they knew no one would have the balls to accuse them of any impropriety.
And when they did start being accused, they reacted just like the dicks that they are: the accusers were liars, the accusers were anti-Catholic, the accusers were simply out to get money from the church. They stone walled so much they made tricky Dick Nixon look like a pussy.
So to the Catholics on this board: the world is supposed to have respect for these criminals simply because they wear a Roman collar? Bullshit, I say, and I say that as someone who went to Catholic school from kindergarten through 4 years of undergraduate study.
Well, it is a big deal that he's stepping down because the story is that he's "divinely" appointed.
It's time for the Catholic Corporation to bring on Vatican III.
Every time you call someone a cunt, the Baby Jesus cries, R26, and Mary's nipples ache.
I can't tell.
[quote] The Catholic Church is so much more than issues of sexuality.
This is true. It's also about oppression, repression, guilt, unrealistic world views, misogyny, racism (black Pope, anyone??), greed, child molestation, committing felonies, covering up felonies, anti-Semitism, cults, and many other things.
I say it's time for another Inquisition. Bring on the Pear of Anguish, and the Rack!
[quote] How about he's old and tired and feeble and wants to have some peace from all the bullshit before he dies?
No pope has taken this route in over five hundred years, that seems Very unlikely
The Church is actually bigger than a fortune 500 company and much more corrupt!
[quote]I say it's time for another Inquisition. Bring on the Pear of Anguish, and the Rack!
The comfy chair!
[quote] OLDEST CHRISTIAN INSTITUTION
not really, but thanks for playing jeopardy!
You're blashpeming, R 29 / 22. But of course you know that. I do apologize for the closing insult. It's obvious that you harbor deep resentment against the Church for your own personal reasons; and it's equally obvious that others share the same views. I, however, don't. Despite the fact that I'm gay, and despite the fact that the Church does not condone homosexual activities. My being Catholic stems from my strong belief in God and in the overall teachings of the Church. They are my personal beliefs. While you apparently refuse to respect them, I'll respect yours, even your choice to hurl insults. Carry on with what you so gleefully enjoy doing. In the end, you won't be explaining it to me.
[quote]Carry on with what you so gleefully enjoy doing. In the end, you won't be explaining it to me.
Shit! The Webmaster!
Just for the record. I'm not Catholic and it was not my intention to defend the Church in any of their bullshit.
I was simply stating what other people believe and what the institution believes about itself and why down playing the Pope abdicating isn't a realistic response.
and touché r37. I should've said "One of the oldest..." but again- their own followers would not believe that.
Why do you need the Church to have a relationship with God, R38?
I'm almost positive if Jesus returned to earth and saw the behavior of the Catholic Church hierarchy over the last couple of thousand years, he'd puke.
Thank you, R41! I always felt the same way-if I need someone to tell me how to have a relationship with God, then I don't have a relationship with God.
Watch the HBO documentary "Mea Maxima Culpa: Silence in the House of God," and get an understanding why Ratzinger is stepping down now. The tapioca is about to hit the air conditioner.
The documentary is on now and next airs on February 15 at 6:30pm.
Horrifying, and the cover-up goes all the way to the top, including John Paul II and Benedict. Sure, hire a Black guy now and let him be the fall guy as the Vatican is sued by a worldwide class action suit.
But still , and I agree w/R8, how can the Pope "resign"? Isn't he equivalent to God and thus not allowed to resign?
R31, I love you.
R38, on the other hand, is pathetic: "Despite the fact that I'm gay, and despite the fact that the Church does not condone homosexual activities....my being Catholic stems from my strong belief in God and in the overall teachings of the Church. They are my personal beliefs. While you apparently refuse to respect them, I'll respect yours, even your choice to hurl insults."
Such idiotic "beliefs" deserve no respect whatsoever. You say you stand by "the overall teachings of the Church" even though you are gay and you admit that "the Church does not condone homosexual activities." I don't even want to think about how you have to twist your brain into a pretzel in order to do that. I truly pity you.
The Catholic Church is the one and only true Christian Church, all the others are not legitimate.
[quote]The Catholic Church is so much more than issues of sexuality.
WRONG. Everyone knows that the Catholic Church is built on a rock of repression. Trust me, both sides of my family are Catholic, and although both sides are vastly different like oil and water, the thing they have in common is Catholic guilt and shame. It is a religion which spends billions convincing it's minions that sex is bad, and should be kept behind closed doors at all time. Make no mistake, they only hate gays because the issue of homosexuality forces them to confront human sexuality at all. Catholics are also obsessed with abortion. In Catholic high school, I saw more dead fetus posters/videos/slide shows/musicals than I ever needed to see in my life.
33 years of life, 10 years an atheist, and I'm still a prude because of being raised by that awful religion.
Catholicism is the anti-sex. Why do you think there's so many sex freaks and perverts who run to the Vatican for protection against themselves?
[quote]The Catholic Church is the one and only true Christian Church, all the others are not legitimate.
Two complete sentences separated by a comma are not legitimate.
Not a Catholic here but I am certainly shocked by the ignorance on display here. Most educated people have knowledge about the basic tenets of the three great Western belief systems. What do they teach you flyovers?
The church needs to change and will. He does not want to be associated with such changes as encouraging condom use, etc.
Question: how long would this thread last if the comments here were about Islam?
Islam is another load of crap heaped on the gullible.
Well, considering it's not, don't worry your pretty little instigating head, R51.
[quote]Carry on with what you so gleefully enjoy doing. In the end, you won't be explaining it to me.
This is my favorite thing knuckleheads who believe in their bipolar loving/vindictive imaginary friend in the sky do: They smugly suggest you'll find out how loving God is when He tortures you for eternity in Hell!
R45 "You say you stand by "the overall teachings of the Church" even though you are gay and you admit that "the Church does not condone homosexual activities."
Most catholics do not follow the sexual teachings of the Church.
By the way.... have you noticed that most of the countries that have legalized gay marriage are Catholic?
Probably a diagnosis of dementia, although that's not stood in the way of previous Popes.
Patricia Heaton is on Datalounge??
Shut the fuck up r48, this AIN'T NO writing class.
Note how it works: Mentioning Islam is "instigating".
However all negative comments about the Church are perfectly legit.
It has been said that God is Santa Claus for adults.
I would agree.
[quote]My guess is that he wanted to shape his legacy so he left while he was still alive so he could have a role in appointing his successor.
Spot on. The Pope simply doesn't resign due to illness or bad health. They are Pope for life. Something big is happening in the Vatican for this resignation to take place.
There's been talk that the next Pope might come from the US or even Africa, where there's a large Catholic renaissance occurring. A moderate-to-liberal American Pope (relative to someone from elsewhere) would be unpalatable to the old-time hardliners who run the Vatican. This move is to shore up their power position/s and get a successor in place now who's in line with the arch-conservative, Opus Dei loving faction in the Church. There's been a big power struggle for control going on, this move is the tip of that iceberg.
[quote]Catholics are also obsessed with abortion.
Because keeping women from having access to abortion keeps them down and 'in their place' as (to the Catholic church) second class citizens. Misogyny and backwards conservatism is at the root of it, not some higher, 'spiritual' purpose.
[quote]Most catholics do not follow the sexual teachings of the Church.
Then maybe the church should wake up and move with the times rather than continuing to teach unenforceable bullshit 'rules', no?
-- Another one brought up Catholic but smart enough to get out as soon as possible
Not only do most Catholics not follow the Churches teachings about sex.... Catholics are more than not, in favor of abortion. Abortion is still an issue in the US. And it has nothing to do with the Catholic Church.
"Most catholics do not follow the sexual teachings of the Church."
I'm sure that's true, but it just points up the stupidity of those who adhere to organized religion. According to the Church, you are simply NOT ALLOWED to pick and choose which rules you follow and which you don't. Do you disagree?
Whatever it turns out to be, this is one scandal that probably won't end up on "Law and Order:SVU."
Olivia (the real) Pope
[quote]not really, but thanks for playing jeopardy!
Just out of curiosity (not challenging you so be nice), what IS the oldest christian institution?
[quote]Sure, hire a Black guy now and let him be the fall guy
Works for almost half of us!
No, R59. This thread is about the pope resigning. Unless Islam has a pope, you really had no other reason to post that except to instigate a Catholic vs. Islam treatment argument. If you wanna do that, pay your $18 bucks and start your own thread about your indignation about all the supposed defenders of Islam on this site.
R38 = Rick Santorum.
The English are correct about Popes.
Tie 'em up and set 'em on fire.
R69 No dear... my comment: "Question: how long would this thread last if the comments here were about Islam? Just wondering."... was perfectly legitimate.
Have any of you heard the story of Father Malachi Martin? He predicted who all the Popes would be until Armageddon. So far he's been right. According to his prediction-this next Pope is the last one! Maybe the anti-Christ. He will be black, actually.
I've been reading about him today. Fascinating, but a little unsettling.
They might elect a black pope to scare people into repenting
(That's the antidote, you know)
None of the tv news stations are talking about this very much. Why?
You made your point, r75!
Please, let's have an argument about which religion is more ridiculous, Islam or Catholicism. I also nominate Mormonism, Scientology, Hasidic Judaism, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Southern Baptists, Pentecostalism, Rastafarianism, etc. Does that about cover it?
The Catholic Corporation is worse than Scientology. Way worse.
As a Catholic I have to say I was quite dissapointed and heart broken when I read the pope's statement a few weeks back on homosexuality.
However, I refuse to believe that the pope has abdicated because of public opinion. The papacy is a calling from God, it is above and beyond any public role, including president.
Do not belittle the laws of God and assume that the pope would resign as a result of public opinion.
It is an insult and blasphemy to assume that public opinion would triumph over God's calling.
This is not like POTUS or any other such public roles.
I hope they pick a Jesuit.
Even if we assume the best case scenario - that Bernadette Ratzinger and her Prada pumps are waddling away because she's too old to kick up her heels anymore.....
.....that still means that she's resigning because the Catholic Church wants to reassert control. They are bleeding members in the US in particular, but membership is exploding in developing countries.
The thugs in the Vatican need someone who can lead the new church and its new demographics, and Nazi Ratzi ain't it.
r81, the pope emasculated them for a reason.
They will never be in the central power again.
They are also evil pedophile harbourers.
Not a Catholic but could there be a scenario where a Pope is simply too ill to perform his duties? Like the rumored situation with Ronnie Reagan, would others then do everything for him? Wouldn't it be more practical to resign and help train his replacement?
Also why hasn't there been an Hispanic or Asian (Filipino) Pope?
[quote] Also why hasn't there been an Hispanic or Asian (Filipino) Pope?
The next one is quite likely to be brown or black.
He has dementia but knows that he may live past his competency. He wants the Church run by a pope, selected by the College of Cardinals, not a cabal of Vatican insider, as was the case in John Paul's later years.
He would not resign because of a scandal.
Thank you Diocese PR!
Highly unlikely, r85.
Hmmm. What are the odds all of these Papal "authorities" on this thread are not even Roman Catholic but are other "religions"?
Maria Monk's followers abound on this site.
This thread proves, once again, that on DL we can never ever have a civil respectful discussion about religion. Each side is completely intolerant of the other.
Pedophile means the attraction is to pre-pubescant boys.
Most of these men are pedarasts they prefer post pubescant.
Some wrong info here: This Pope will have NO say in who his successor is. Only those cardinals under 80 can attend the conclave and vote. He is 85. By resigning he has chosen a cloistered life where he will be taken care of but will have no influence. For those who like to play 'yes but' on DL, he did not rule long enough to stock the upper levels of the Vatican with men so loyal to him that he could influence them privately. Once he loses his power and prestige he's gone, period, and something of an embarrassment, even if there are sound reasons for his stepping down (rapidly deteriorating mental and physical health for example).
He was never a Nazi. All Aryan children had to join Hitler Youth. This was not optional. He was too young to have convictions or even understand what was going on. One of the few very good things about his writings has been a detestation of Totalitarianism and an accurate identification of the global corporatism movement as essentially a Fascist/Totalitarian endeavor, whose main objective is to beggar people and rob them of their rights.
He is otherwise very conservative, also like most Catholic hierarchy over 60, complicit in cover ups of severe and world wide child molestation. He has been ineffective in making restitution or protecting children, and that goes back to his years as Archbishop of Munich.
The World Court charged the Vatican with crimes against children. It may not go through but it may also signal a greater effort on the part of international law enforcement to discover victims, and see to restitution for them, and protection for others, and to enforce sanctions against the Vatican, and possibly those individuals who could be charged with planning or facilitating a cover up. Dealing with anything like that would require someone who has not been part of it (as this Pope has been for a long time) and who if need be can fight the charges with vigor, which this Pope may feel he lacks.
The core of upper echelon Catholicism is very conservative. On the one hand it makes sense to elect a second or third world Pope; on the other, very powerful cardinals may object. A conservative American might be a compromise, so might a well connected conservative Cardinal from South America. Although it's possible they are smarter than the GOP and won't ignore Catholics from countries where Catholicism is actually growing, appointing an African Pope for example, it's also possible that like the GOP they won't be able to bring themselves to do it.
It will not be an American. That would upset everyone and please no one but Americans. Yes, the strong Catholic communities are in Africa and Latin America, but the money is in Europe and North America. Africa and Latin America are very faithful regardless of who becomes pope. The same cannot be said for North America and Europe. Choosing a black or South American Pope may alienate some of the moneyed Catholics.
The Quebec Cardinal who is being touted as a front runner would be a baby step/compromise (Not European, Not American, White and Conservative, formerly a teacher in Latin America) but there is not really much point in speculating. What happens in conclave can easily defy all logic.
[quote]Not a Catholic but could there be a scenario where a Pope is simply too ill to perform his duties?
The previous pope had Parkinson's really bad, but he hung on to the end.
[quote]Not a Catholic but could there be a scenario where a Pope is simply too ill to perform his duties?
In this day and age of constant media exposure, dementia would qualify. 200 hundred years ago a stunned Pope could be shielded by the curia who would speak on his behalf, today it would be obvious to everyone.
The last Pope will be a Roman. They will follow Malachy, as did Ratzi by becoming Benedict.
I cannot believe it's illness or just being too old. They would prop him up with a stick up his gown, or cart him around in a wheelchair. Or just let him die and then pick the new one without a cloud of scandal. A pope doesn't resign in the middle of Lent. I think he must have killed someone. Seriously, it must be that bad for him to bail before Easter (6 weeks away).
[quote]Pedophile means the attraction is to pre-pubescant boys. Most of these men are pedarasts they prefer post pubescant.
Leaving aside your spelling problems (pederasts, pubescent), you're wrong about the definition of pederast. A pederast is a man who has sexual relations, especially anal intercourse, with a boy. Translated literally from the Greek, it means "child-lover."
In colloquial usage, both pedophile and pederast have come to mean an adult who has sexual interest or relations with a minor. Technically, though, pedophile means attraction to prepubescent children, hebephile is attraction to pubescent youths, and ephebophilia is attraction to post-pubescent adolescents.
R97, my guess is that they will deliberately NOT elect a Roman, and that he will not take the name Peter, so has not to trigger the end of the prophecy:
[quote]Peter the Roman, who will nourish the sheep in many tribulations; when they are finished, the city of seven hills will be destroyed, and the dreadful judge will judge his people. The end.
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia,
[quote]It has been noticed concerning Petrus Romanus, who according to St. Malachy's list is to be the last pope, that the prophecy does not say that no popes will intervene between him and his predecessor designated Gloria olivæ. It merely says that he is to be the last, so that we may suppose as many popes as we please before "Peter the Roman".
He can barely walk any more and has to be carried, and had bad arthritis. What other person of 85 would have to be on show like this. He knows he just cant cut it any more, and may be feeling dementia coming on, or feels he cant stand doing those long masses or services any more. After all how much longer has he got? a year or so ... he wants to retire with that nice priest who always attends to him.
Perhaps the next one will be younger and less intolerant and less befuddled about the modern age and will be able to modernise the church. If it a black pope though he may be just as anti-gay as this old one. Its madness to start a job like this at 78, when most other men are winding down.
Maybe the Vatican wanted him to step down as he is not helping the Church with his anti-gay stance and pronouncements on same-sex marriage being the end of civilization etc. Maybe they want a new younger pope to raise the church's profile and not this tired old German with his nazi associations.
" Picts of him"
Benedict resigned because he wants to exercise maximum control over the selection of his successor. This will be very awkward.
[quote]Maybe the Vatican wanted him to step down as he is not helping the Church with his anti-gay stance and pronouncements on same-sex marriage being the end of civilization etc.
No one in the Vatican is for gays. It's a very conservative place, the last two popes made sure of that.
r104. I fail to see how a resigned Pope has any influence.
He will have none as of February 28th. Ask anybody who has ever had any power and then not had it. People find you very easy to ignore much less find you influential about anything.
He's already assured that his successor will think like him by exercising his power as Pope by naming a majority of the members of the College of Cardinals.
Will he be free to marry? The old coot probably has no sense of smell left and a few bucks in the bank. I am desperate here.
He's stepping down to accept the title role in the revival of HELLO, DOLLY!
[quote] The papacy is a calling from God...Do not belittle the laws of God and assume that the pope would resign as a result of public opinion...It is an insult and blasphemy to assume that public opinion would triumph over God's calling.
R80 - Be careful, you are only a whisker away from saying that the child sexual abuse undertaken by Catholic clergy is God's will.
All the cardinals who will vote were named by him or John Paul II. They are very conservative, for the most part, and many have close personal and professional ties to Benny. It would be naive to suppose that he will not have substantial influence on the proceeding, albeit mainly on the process leading up to the election.
It makes me madder than spit that Cardinal Mahoney will participate in the selection.
His brother says it was more due to the financial reveal -and the butler leak issue - that humiliated him. But didn't those papers reveal that it was the CFO who was doing all the crappy stuff and it was all hidden from the Pope? Which I guess is humiliating.
If that is true, r111, he should have resigned last year or whenever it happened. Or before the end of 2012. Or begin announcing on Jan 1 2013 that he'll be stepping down. The timing is bizarre. It's Lent. It's like Derek Jeter retiring in the middle of the World Series while he's playing in it.
I think, r112, that it's a combination of ill health, fatigue and the fact that he has lost control of the inner working of the Vatican.
[quote]Horrifying, and the cover-up goes all the way to the top, including John Paul II and Benedict. Sure, hire a Black guy now and let him be the fall guy as the Vatican is sued by a worldwide class action suit.
Interesting perspective. And probably right on.
Very well said R93
 They are saying now his decision to resign was made months ago. But was kept to just a few in the know. For the first time,it really makes me wonder, what they hell is going on with those Cardinals in power. There has to be a reason he dropped this as a total surprise.
Just what was in those leaked documents exactly? Were they ever published?
Soon we will have a new Holy Father, so let's move on looking toward to the future. There is no need to keep bringing up the past. What's past is past.
[quote]There is no need to keep bringing up the past. What's past is past.
You obviously did not receive a Jesuit education.
I heard he quit to take a rol in the new A&E show "Holy Wars"
"quit bringing up the past. What's past is past" This is the bullshit I often hear from a sociopath acquaintance who rages when people bring up his consistent awful behavior, and expect the same to happen again.
Huff Post satire: Pope Admits 'Serious Doubts About This Whole Organized Religion Thing,' Announces Resignation
Next, watch the Borgia series on Netflix. It's really good and based on historical fact. Lots of popey stuff. Remember, diehard Catholics: it's historical fact! You can look it up. I dare the Catholics to watch it.
The Medici mini series on netflix is also interesting (with some popey stuff), but more documentary Nat'l Geo style.
I would really like to know the reason he's abdicating. Something big is going on, that's for sure.
I now beginning to buy the idea that the church only gave him the hat because they needed a scapegoat. He was old and decrepit enough that no one would question his being tucked away... after all the scandals have been aired out.
I think this was his purpose all along. Why else would they elect someone who was clearly near death's door before even taking the position?
The resignation occurred, astrologically speaking, during a balsamic phase of a new moon, a dreamlike stage in which light is released from long held darkness.
The lightning bolt striking the papal dome signifies the shift of an age.
r80. Are you gay? Are you male or female?
Benedict is 85 years old. He has lived through the collapse of Weimar Germany, the rise of Hitler and Nazis, World War ii, the division of his country, the re-building of Germany in the 1950s and 1960s, the rise of terrorism in Germany in the 1960s and 1970s, etc. He isn't in good health.He is tired. He knows that he can no longer handle the responsibilities of his office. He trying to leave the world stage with as much grace and dignity as possible.
As an academic, Benedict knows that he won't be considered a great pope. He will be best remembered for voluntarily abdicating the papal throne, thereby giving future popes the same option.
I doubt that Benedict wanted the end of his life to be similar of John Paul II's declining years. He led an active life; being infirm must be a trial for him.
For those who think an African pope would bring about reform, I disagree. The Africans are much more conservative than the Europeans or the North Americans. Just ask the Anglicans/Episcopalians
He's mounting a revival of "Cabaret" and starring as the MC.
To pursue his true life dream: creative consultant for Prada's new line of shoes
[quote] The timing is bizarre. It's Lent. It's like Derek Jeter retiring in the middle of the World Series while he's playing in it.
Exactly. It's hard to explain to people who weren't brought up Catholic why the timing is almost unfathomable.
I'm giving up the Pope for Lent.
It's also interesting that he will be entering a monastery of nuns that are totally cloistered. My guess is the former Pope will not be available for any future legal or other questions regarding the Vatican and their doings while he was Pope.
[quote]the former Pope will not be available for any future legal or other questions regarding the Vatican and their doings while he was Pope.
He'll be dead before the end of the year.
R126 is pretty much right, and doesn't deserve shit for the "sin" of speaking a thoughtful, non-biased opinion.
I'm not a Catholic (raised as one but...) and loathe the Church as a corrupt, hate-filled pile of insidious male arrogance and self-serving criminality, so it's not like I'm pro-nutso-Catholic.
Anyway, Ratzinger is a cold-minded, detached "academic" who pretends that rationalism will cover up underlying realities. I suspect those realities, the ones driving his decision, also include an implicit admission of failure and a cowardly withdrawal from the responsibility of his failure. He has in effect delivered a large middle finger to his Church and to its people. He is not so enfeebled, and there would have been ways for his age to be accommodated. He is saying that he has had enough, and fuck you.
He also is attempting to control his succession, and will inevitably rely on the usual subtleties to signal to his pets where to throw their votes. Sure, he'll keep quiet then. Why not?
r136 do you really believe as r126 says, that he's stepping down because he's tired? You don't think it's because he covered up pedophilia and abuse and is found out?
With that said, R38 is a cunt and as hypocritical as any toady for a demented, manipulative system of control. She just HAD to slip in that HER god will be exacting payment for all the mean things DLers say.
That sort of pride, cunt, constitutes a mortal sin. And a betrayal of what you - hypocrite - claim to believe.
The Church not only is an enemy of gay people, it is an enemy of reason, accurate history, and authentic spirituality. If you want to pretend to believe in an immaculate conception, a virgin birth, the Pauline hijacking of Jesus' movement, the moral authority of a depraved priesthood, the unfitness of women as clergy, transubstantiation, Mary's physical assumption into heaven, and all the rest of the accreted hoo-doo conniving to deter sense and human progress, fine. Just don't shake your stinkfinger at us calling down your nasty god's vengeance, you cunt.
Thank you, r138, that needed to be said.
R138, I have no idea what led you to leave the Church that Jesus Himself established. I am profoundly grateful to God (and humbled by His mercy) that he has given me this great gift of faith, and even the cross of homosexuality that I must bear (and yes, it is a cross, because no one, with all honesty, would willingly take it on). I forgive your animosity, even though you know nothing of me, and accuse me for stating the truth. May this Lenten season open your mind and heart, and may God bless you. You may interpret this as a "hypocritical" post, as you've accused me, but sincerely, it's not. I won't respond to you further, but I hope you ponder these words, as well as the words in my original post. Yes, I erred by responding with a hateful comment, but I am human, and I respond with a vengeance when God is attacked. But I'm striving to be more like Him, as he taught: to love and to forgive. Have a good night.
Yeah, whatever. I think he must have killed someone. That's why he is stepping down with no notice, during Lent.
[quote]He can barely walk any more and has to be carried, and had bad arthritis. What other person of 85 would have to be on show like this. He knows he just cant cut it any more, and may be feeling dementia coming on, or feels he cant stand doing those long masses or services any more.
He's too pooped to pope.
Is he unpopeular? Does he pope out at parties?
Pope Benedict XVI said it was not appropriate for him to continue as pope
(CNN) -- Huge crowds in the Vatican cheered Pope Benedict XVI on Wednesday as he made his first public appearance since announcing his resignation at the end of the month.
He thanked the Roman Catholic faithful in several languages and said it was not appropriate for him to continue as pope.
"I've decided to resign the ministry given to me by the Lord. I've done this in full freedom, for the benefit of the church," he told those gathered in a Vatican City audience hall for his regular weekly appearance.
Benedict said he is fully aware of the gravity of his decision but he could not carry on as pope "if I don't have the strength that it requires."
Benedict later celebrated an Ash Wednesday mass that marked the beginning of Lent at St. Peter's Basilica in the afternoon.
The service was moved from St. Sabina Church, where it is traditionally held, to the Basilica to accommodate the larger crowd of worshipers, Vatican officials said. News Monday that Benedict was stepping down at the end of February "because of advanced age" shocked the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics.
He is the first pope to resign in nearly 600 years.
Benedict will keep working until February 28, meeting with pastors from Rome, Italian bishops, and the visiting presidents of Romania, Guatemala and other countries, according to the Vatican press office.
He will hold a final audience in Vatican City's St. Peter's Square on February 27, but the church is not planning a formal ceremony to mark the pope's departure, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, a spokesman for the Vatican, said Wednesday.
Benedict will simply leave at the end of his typical workday -- 8 p.m. in Vatican City, Lombardi said.
The pontiff, born Joseph Ratzinger, will first go to the pope's summer residence in Castel Gandolfo, and then is likely to retire to a monastery and devote himself to a life of reflection and prayer, Lombardi said.
He won't be involved in managing the church after his resignation.
"The pope is well and his soul is serene. He did not resign the pontificate because he is ill but because of the fragility that comes with old age," Lombardi said.
Vatican Secretary of State Tarcisio Bertone on Wednesday thanked Pope Benedict for his service.
"All of us have understood that it is precisely the deep love that your holiness has for God and the church which pushed you to this act," he said.
The pope's decision was not linked to a recent medical intervention to replace the battery in his pacemaker, Lombardi said, adding that it had been a routine procedure.
Benedict's unexpected move has inevitably prompted frenzied speculation over who might assume the papacy in his place.
The Vatican does not yet know when the cardinals will meet in a conclave to decide who will replace Benedict, but it must begin within 20 days of the pope's resignation, Lombardi said.
He had previously said a new pope would be in place before Easter is celebrated at the end of March.
While Benedict won't be directly involved in his successor's selection, his influence will undoubtedly be felt. He appointed 67 of the 117 cardinals who are set to make the decision.
The number of electors could drop to 115, as two cardinals will turn 80 in March, when their age makes them ineligible to cast a vote. More than two-thirds of the final number of cardinals must agree on the next pope. The announcement that a decision has been made will come in the form of a puff of white smoke emerging from a chimney in the Vatican.
Much speculation has focused on whether Benedict's successor might come from Africa or Latin America, rather than Europe, where Roman Catholic congregations are shrinking.
Nobody could have anticipated John Paul II would last as long as he did. They really should have retired him rather than dragging his poor old drooling ass out for public appearances until he was clinically dead. But he was incredibly popular and besides the worship of his pathetic incapacitated hulk was such a typically Catholic thing (these of course being the people who venerate the scabs and toenails of saints and who consider fertilized ova full-fledged human beings.)
Benedict, in contrast, has been a PR disaster for the church and there's no reason whatsoever to keep him around. I think he's either been diagnosed with dementia or he's terminally ill and they want him out of there so they can start over again.
As far as the sexual abuse scandals, the church has been so utterly shameless about it up until now, Benedict in particular, that I really can't believe that he's resigning for that reason.
I think he's going to be the new puppeteer/voice for Elmo.
Love love love Betty Bowers' take on the situation.
well, doesn't something in another thread suggest that it is because of the abuse scandals
R47: All my friends think I'm a prude too. But I think the best lesson I learned from the Catholic church and schools is to always play it close and manage the image tightly.
Even in my family - my grandparents all thought I was an angel. If they only knew.
Of course I'm an atheist now which caused an enormous amount of family friction.
I went to Catholic school too. It wasn't the priests that were bad it was the abusive nuns. The stuff that Sister Anunciata got away with when I was in first grade haunts me to this day. The diocese finally pulled her out, but the damage was done to those she targeted. Stories like these are legion. The whole damn religion is s-i-c-k!
I can't wait to see the reaction if Peter Turkson becomes Pope.
r155, can you help to explain the truth? As far as I can tell from that link, this is all sourced to unnamed "Italian media sources."
My Italian's limited, but can you find this story that the Pope will ask for immunity from the Italian president in a media outlet? I could not.
I was putting "benedetto xvi" and "napolitano" in the search box of the Italian Google News site.
Here's what the linked article above says:
[quote] Pope Allegedly Sought Immunity For Abuse Crimes Just Before Resigning
We knew something had to be up with the resignation of Pope Benedict. After all, Popes don’t just resign; in fact, this is the first time a Pope has resigned in 600 years. Therefore, the hoopla surrounding this is more than understandable. However, as per usual with the Catholic Church, there seems to be a catch, and, lo and behold, it likely surrounds the infamous abuse scandals that have plagued the church’s image for so long.
It seems that with his resignation announced, the Pope, whose given name is Joseph Ratzinger, has a meeting with the Italian President, Giorgio Napolitano on February 23 to beg for immunity against prosecution for allegations of child sex crimes. Apparently, this hastily arranged meeting, and likely the resignation as well, are the result of a supposed note received by the Vatican from an undisclosed European government that stated that there are plans to issue a warrant for the Pope’s arrest. This letter was allegedly received on February 4, and Ratzinger resigned a week later. Now, there’s no way people can ignore how fishy this is. The first Pope to resign in 600 years does so after panicking about an impending arrest and in the midst of a hastily arranged meeting begging for protection from the Italian government? How they will keep people from connecting the two is beyond me. Chances are, the world will be popping popcorn and steadily watching.
Well, for once, the guy might not get off easy. The International Tribunal into Crimes of Church and state calls upon the Italian President to deny help to Ratzinger, and to “not collude in criminality. Let’s just hope that Napolitano does not cave. However, there may be another avenue to make sure the Pope is brought to justice if the Italian President does cave.
It seems that in addition to these alleged attempts by this European government to prosecute, a New York based organization, The Centre for Constitutional Rights, has accused the Pope and his Cardinals of possible crimes against humanity for sheltering pedophile priests. The non-profit legal group has requested an ICC inquiry on behalf of the Survivor’s Network, citing the church’s “long-standing and pervasive system of sexual violence.”
Apparently, the Vatican has no comment. Well, of course it doesn’t. It knows that Ratzinger and his henchmen are guilty, and now they are just scrambling to save face and save his keister from jail. Shame, since that is exactly where he belongs.
The thing is, this institution knows no bounds when it comes to protecting their own, no matter how heinous the crimes. Anyone not living under a rock knows that the Pope and his cronies have abusing children for decades, and likely centuries. The thing is, they are just the biggest example of religion getting people passes. Shameful, but true. All those of us with a sense of justice and conscience can do is hope that one, if not both, of these attempts at legal action is successful.
It sounds like made up crap, r157. If Benedict was truly worried about any prosecution (despite our opinions, what actually would he be prosecuted for) then he would have remained as pope.
And, yes, Benedict's influence within the Church would still be strong: there are many loyal to him, especially the Cardinals who he appointed. The idea that his influence would simply dissipate is wrong.
[quote] despite our opinions, what actually would he be prosecuted fo
It's not an "opinion" that this man covered up child sex abuse - that is a fact and a crime. Whether he did it himself too remains to be seen.
R160, under what law could he be tried for that in Italy and who would bring the charges?
In fact, that item that is linked by r155 and which r158 pasted is so completely full of holes. Who would be bringing the charges? Under which law? Which "secret" European government has sought to indict Ratzinger? What kind of immunity can the Italian president give him? Does that override the European Arrest Warrant? Can the Italian police even enter the Vatican complex without the authorisation of the Vatican itself? Isn't the pope himself the supreme authority in the Vatican, not the Italian president? And, when has Raztinger himself ever been accused of child sexual abuse (as opposed to covering it up)?
And, this "International Tribunal into Crimes of Church" is a made up thing that has no international recognition and certainly no legal powers.
Thank you R161
Thank you for what? As head of the Roman Catholic Church - and as JPII's special appointee whose speciality it indeed was to minimise childhood sexual abuse in the Catholic Church - oh yes, and as a man who in his pre-Pope said that the Devil resided beneath young women's miniskirts - Pope Benedict is an apologist for pedophiles and a misogynist. I am not sure what you are "thanking" R161 for, as he/she is close to becoming an apologist FOR an apologist for pedophiles.
P.S. I look forward to being called an apostate again, which is what the right-wing Catholic DLer (okay, there are several) resorts to when he realizes that it's not Catholic-hating Protestants who are calling the Pope to task, but rather former (not lapsed) Catholics.
This rough translation is from the paper in the Lake Maggiore region . . .
Resignation of Pope Benedict
And the web is full of "hoaxes"
VARESE -- "The Pope has resigned to avoid arrest and seizure of the goods of the Church." The news of Benedict XVI is making the rounds of the network, but it is just a hoax.
The word is circulating on Facebook and several blogs saying that "Joseph Ratzinger was forced to announce his resignation from the office without historical precedent of Pope, due to impending action of the European Government which has issued an arrest warrant against Ratzinger, and by Easter the government will issue a lien on the property of the Vatican."
Many have taken the bait and are sharing the news that Pope Benedict VXI would be accused crimes against humanity, and conspiracy by the International Tribunal on Crimes of Church and State.
Online there are also counterarguments, but they’re not enjoying the same success.
The Tribunal announced that it had issued an arrest warrant against Ratzinger for having hatched a criminal conspiracy, but it’s merely a group of people who’ve proclaimed themselves a “Tribunal" The mandate would therefore not have the slightest value.
The mysterious European government that issued the diplomatic note on the arrest warrant is the result of the unbridled imagination of someone. It would be the "sovereign nation Eurostaete," a no man's land about 500 meters long and six wide, originating in a border dispute between the Netherlands and Germany. Is not recognized as a nation by anyone except by locals, as written by the Dutch Wikipedia site.
Dear r163, please don't let your emotions get in the way of your brain processes: I am not "defending" Benedict, simply pointing out that the suggestion he is resigning so as to request imunity from the president of Italy so that he is not charged with child sex abuse offences is a load of bull.
Why would that mean he would resign, r168? Surely if he was trying to investigate the Vatican finances the best way to do that would be to remain pope.
Maybe he thought someone was going to euthanize him for the good of the church, and he spiked their guns by resigning first.
If Dan Brown was writing this . . .
R67 - probably the Coptic church.
But when you go that far back, the difference is in "who shouts the loudest" anyway.
I now think this latest "he was trying to shed light on the vatican's money" angle is a cover for the truth-- he was trying to protect child molesters.
The Vatican knows he is going gaga with not long left and rather be left with a dementia pope on their hands who cannot appear in public any more, they want a younger newer more vibrant pope in place before Benedict croaks or starts tearing off his vestments and losing control of his bodily functions ....
When I say that Benedict is shameless and that I can't imagine a revelation big enough to force him out of office, I'm going on what I've read about previous pedo priest scandals (and there have been tons of them. If you want to understand the incredible gall and arrogance of the Vatican and its American affiliates and the power they have at hand to crush anyone who dares stand up to them, Jason Berry's "Lead Us Not Into Temptation: Catholic Priests and the Sexual Abuse of Children" explains it all for you. And this is a book published in 1992. NOTHING HAS CHANGED. And yes, Berry affirms that the Borgias are a palpable influence on current Vatican policy.
For current info on how the Church is stonewalling, covering up and fucking over people in real time, I recommend the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests website.
A few years ago I was talking with other lapsed catholic friends about the future of the church and I predicted within 50 years the Catholic church in America would break away from the Vatican. Now I'm wondering if the weight of the financial and predator priest scandals will make this a reality sooner rather than later.
I was in Rome around 8 years ago and learned that Vatican City is its own city and not under Rome jurisdiction. Wouldn't the Church be automatic immunity?
So, Catholic assets like the land under St. Patrick's and the building itself - who owns it?
Is Rome on the deed, or do they set up subsidiary corporations in each country?
Do American, French, Guatemalan, Vietnamese, etc., churches pay some sort of franchise fee to the Vatican?
They pay a hell of a lot more than a franchise fee!!!
R176, Vatican City is a sovereign nation in the middle of the city of Rome, which is why Italian courts have no jurisdiction as long as the Pope remains there.
Stop asking so many questions! Are you trying to get us all killed??
He's had a pacemaker for long enough for the battery to run out and the pulse generator had to be replaced. It is most likely a case where his heart is getting worse.
So Cardinal Sedano is the key to a lot of the evil....
There is definitely something to the struggle over the Vatican Bank and I think the Vatican Bank issue is tied to the child molestation issue.
Because the church has to pay out all these huge settlements and because donations are or have dried up from so many Catholics in light of the abuse scandal, the Church may be tempted to turn to (even more) illegal and otherwise unsavory activities to fund itself.
And already there are disputes starting over Benedict's appointee to head the Vatican Bank over his alleged ties to German military ship construction when the Vatican Bank investing in military contractors is a no-no.
According to article in Huff Post ,popes resignation due in part to powerful f
Gay lobby within the Vatican. Discuss.
Interesting remarks and in poor taste. Im not Catholic but I am a physician and believe the pope may have the beginning or nearing the point of being unable to function because of severe dememtia or worse.No need to responed to my speculation. Regardless, none of us will know the truth.
Someone needs to start a thread about the conclave to elect a new pope, perhaps with the topic line: "Is it Pope yet?"
So apparently the longer the conclave lasts before voting the better the opportunity for selecting a Pope from outside the "in crowd" at the Vatican.
So in their first days of meetings, the Cardinals have requested to be given more information as to what went wrong with the Curia. They want details.
Maybe there's a tiny hope for some change?
If this was about altar boys, Cardinal Mahoney would not be so jovially dismissive of the LA Catholics who wanted him to stay home.
It's always about money, so I smell issues with the Vatican Bank.
Don't have the energy to read the entire thread -
According to the prophecies of Saint Malachy, Ratzi was the next to the last Pope. His successor, Peter the Roman, will be the last Pope, and will preside over the end-times.
Anyone mentioned the impending end of the world?