My brother recently married a lovely Ukranian woman (she immigrated to the US ten years ago). I don't know any other Ukranian people, but I have several close Russian friends. Every time I mention anything about making Russian food, going to Russian restaurants with my friends etc. she gets upset and acts like she doesn't recognize any of the dishes that they eat. She also says that she cant understand their language. I understand that Ukraine is it's own country NOW but isn't the food, customs, etc pretty much the same as Russia since they share a common history?
Because the two countries aren't the same, OP. And they get unduly lumped together because of the USSR connection by Westerners.
This can't be that difficult the grasp.
Ukraine is the bread basket of Russia. During WWII, Stalin starved a LOT of Ukrainians in order to control them. There is no love lost. It's worth reading up about. She is right to act as she does. Russians did very bad things to her people. To not acknowledge Russia is the least she can do to preserve her ethnic integrity.
OP imagine telling this story, but instead of saying Ukrainian and Russian, you say Irish and English.
Ukrainian's ... what, OP? Their fingers? Are those what Ukranians posess that are so touchy about Russians?
Why am I so touchy about misplaced apostrophes?
For god's sake. It's not like they're on opposite sides of the planet. They are different countries, yes, but they have similar languages, food, and customs. She's being a bit precious and rude about her disdain for all things Russian.
R3 Or Greeks and Turks.
What everybody else said. There's the former Soviet satellite hostility, plus the fact that Stalin tried killing most of them off in the 1930's through gulags & mass starvation.
They're still a little touchy about that.
Damn, the plurals are Ukrainians, Russians, you idiot!
Serbs and Bosnians
Serbs and Croats
Chinese and Tibetans
Castillians and Catalans
Castillians and Basques
French and Bretons
The list goes on...
Why the apostrophe's?
Cuz I'm an idiot
Before someone asks "Why no comma's?" for R10, I made a list and forgot to double space between the lines.
R13 That really is a sucky DL default. That happened to me yesterday.
I'm on my iPad, and spellcheck added the apostrophe.
Stop using spellcheck.
The Ukraine was a part of the Russian Empire and then the Soviet Union for hundreds of years. They are slavic peoples who share many of the same customs, food and culture of Russia. I understand that it is now a separate country but for many, many years it was not.
I mean, it's like saying that Austrians and Germans don't share a common cultural bond.
Because they have good reason's and some very bad experience's with the Rushions, OP.
OP, just where were you when the English teacher you had went over the proper use of an apostrophe? Is a possessive and a plural that confusing to you?
Ukrainian's what so touchy about Russian's what???
I kind of agree with OP. She's overreacting. The two countries aren't the same and what happened in the past was terrible but it is in the past and it's also true that those countries share similar language, culture...
And I speak that as a member of one of the peoples mentioned in R10's post. In my experience, the people who are sensitive about these things and deny similarities between two neighboring countries that were once at war are usually right-wing nationalists and xenophobes.
[quote]I mean, it's like saying that Austrians and Germans don't share a common cultural bond
indeed, but that doesn't mean that they don't hate and distrust each other.
My ancestry is Ukrainian - I still have family who live there. It's not just Russians... it's Polish, Germans, English... the list goes on. Ukrainians by and large are a snarky bunch who don't like anyone or anything, and they're generally stuck up.
you want to really piss her off, call it "THE Ukraine." That really gets 'em riled up.
Ask her for her Chicken Kiev recipe.
Haha, R24. Yeah, that was me from the other thread.
So this is like Americans and Canadians?
Americans never rounded up Canadians into pogroms or created famine to restructure Canadian society.
They only tried to invade (half-heartedly) in 1812.
"understand that Ukraine is it's own country NOW but isn't the food, customs, etc pretty much the same as Russia since they share a common history?"
Are the food, customs, etc. pretty much the same vis a vis Louisiana and Vermont?
^and, no, Russian and Ukrainian are not the same language.
[quote]plus the fact that Stalin tried killing most of them off in the 1930's through gulags & mass starvation.
Umm ... wasn't Stalin Georgian? Or does heading the Soviet Union automatically make make him Russian?
I notice France's greatest leader, Napoleon, was Corsican too. Which is odd because many today don't really consider themselves French either. And Hitler was Austrian, right?
Because humans are idiots and that's why we're never coming.
I'm sure if she was from South Korea she wouldn't give a rat's ass about North Korean food or customs either.
Western Ukrainians come from many areas that were formally part of Poland and other countries. They have different language influences and more Catholics and Uniate churches. They have always been foes of Russia. Stalin forced them into the Soviet Union when he and Hitler carved up Poland in 1939. They were shoved into the Ukrainian SSR and their culture, language and religion was suppressed.
Eastern Ukraine is heavily Russian speaking and Orthodox.
The Crimea is completely Russian and Orthodox. They were thrown into the Ukrainian SSR by the Soviets.
In my opinion the Eastern Ukraine and Crimea should reunite to Russia and Western Ukraine go its own way.
It's the same thing basically.
Saying you speak Ukrainian so you can't understand Russian is like saying you're from Philadelphia and need an interpreter if you go to Glasgow.
Because foreigners are touchy about petty stupid shit like that.
Tell her to shut the fuck up and get over her petty Euro-tribal shit. She's an American now, act like one or get the fuck out!
"It's the same thing basically.
Saying you speak Ukrainian so you can't understand Russian is like saying you're from Philadelphia and need an interpreter if you go to Glasgow."
Actually, no. Ukrainian is actually closer to Polish and Serbo-Croatian than it is to Russian.
But no one would argue that Polish and Serbo-Croatian are the same as Ukrainian.
Sure, one is able to understand, just as French speakers can get along in Portuguese and Romanian, or Spanish speakers can get along in Catalan, but that doesn't make them the same languages.
Both the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union were just that, empires, they included many different ethnicities, languages and cultures.
[quote] I understand that it is now a separate country but for many, many years it was not.
[quote]I mean, it's like saying that Austrians and Germans don't share a common cultural bond.
No. Austrians and Germans speak the same language.
Russians and Ukranians **do not speak the same language**.
They're **different languages**. They're different nations.
[Granted, there are a lot of Russian-speakers in Ukraine, but they're not the ones who are touchy about being confused with Russians.]
[quote]Saying you speak Ukrainian so you can't understand Russian is like saying you're from Philadelphia and need an interpreter if you go to Glasgow.
They're not different dialects of the same language. They're **different languages**.
[quote]Serbs and Bosnians Serbs and Croats
Also no. Serbs, Bosniacs and Croats speak different standardized varieties of the same language. Russians and Ukranians do not.
Chances are the person you're talking to is an American of Ukrainian descent. Immigrants and first generations tend to be more nationalistic in the US than they would be in their home country. In the Ukraine, on the other hand, virtually everyone can speak Russian, most speak Russian in their everyday life, and a significant portion of the population want to have a strong and special relationship with Russia.
[quote] In the Ukraine, on the other hand, virtually everyone can speak Russian, most speak Russian in their everyday life, and a significant portion of the population want to have a strong and special relationship with Russia.
This is why i love DL. You never know if people who post this shit are
1. Bat-shit crazy
2. Just trolling
3. Really as stupid as they sound
4. All of the above.
Looks like R43 forgot to take her meds this morning.
Seriously people, what is so tricky about the difference between plurals and possessives?
"Why are Ukrainians so touchy about Russians?"
R42, in contrast, was clearly dropped on his head as a child.
My father is from the Ukraine and I believe that all school children there were at one time required to learn Russian and speak it in school. This would have been prior to the collapse.
"Seriously people, what is so tricky about the difference between plurals and possessives?
"Why are Ukrainians so touchy about Russians?""
As OP can't understand that Russian and Ukrainian are different languages it's appealing ironic that he clearly has not mastered English.
My partner is Ukranian and the problem is that the area known as Ukraine has sometimes been Poland, sometimes been Russia, etc. They have often had no land to call their own, so now they overcompensate by NOT being Russian and NOT being Polish. How dare us even THINK they like Vodka or Perogies because they're Ukranian? They're not RUSSIAN, they're not POLISH!
[quote]My father is from the Ukraine and I believe that all school children there were at one time required to learn Russian and speak it in school. This would have been prior to the collapse.
Before the collapse of the USSR, yes, Ukrainians, like people all over the USSR, were required to learn Russian in school. Russian served as the country's lingua franca. However, in Ukraine they did not have to speak it in school (apart from Russian classes, of course) and they definitely didn't speak it at home unless they were ethnic Russians.
Ukraine = earrings
Russia = Kaftans
OP are you quite sure you can move on to more complicated thought processes such as the twists and turns of Ukrainian and Russian history and interaction when you obviously haven't mastered the proper use of an apostrophe?
I have a question along these lines. I was talking to a Russian coworker, and mentioned something about going to a Russian restaurant in Brighton Beach. She quickly remarked "the people in Brighton Beach aren't REAL Russians". What did she mean by that?
"Before the collapse of the USSR, yes, Ukrainians, like people all over the USSR, were required to learn Russian in school."
Maybe we should try the same thing in the U.S. with English.
R53 A lot of the Russians in Brighton are Jewish. There is also a sizable population of Georgians and Armenians. Its kind of like how some redneck in Kansas doesn't consider New Yorkers to be "real Americans"
Apparently R54 believes everything his racist aunt shares on Facebook.
Ukrainians make borscht like this.
Russians make borscht like THIS.
Wait a minuite, are Russian Jews not 'real Russians' either?
Start wearing purple, wearing purple
Start wearing purple, wearing purple
All your sanity and wits they will all vanish, I promise
It's just a matter of time
[quote]Wait a minuite, are Russian Jews not 'real Russians' either?
R58, Russia, like many other countries, is addicted to classifying its citizens by ethnicity, and the government recognizes dozens of ethnic groups. In Russia, your ethnicity is even entered into your passport. For whatever reason, this is much more important even today in Russia than, say, in the United States, where we tend to classify people by race rather than ethnicity.
Jews are the most hated ethnic group in Russia, R58, and it's been that way for centuries. So, no, many ethnic Russians do not consider Jews living in Russia to be "real Russians" because they're, well, they're Jews!
R55 It's a bit different. Jews,Georgians and Armenians are distinct ethnic groups to Russians.There are many ethnic groups in Russia like the Chechens etc so forth. However ethnicity and nationality are intertwined to ethnic Russians like many different European peoples.So Ukrainians in Russia who are Slavic and culture is somewhat similar to the Russians are not Russian Ukrainians,they are Ukrainians. BTW Palestinian Israelis are called Arab Israelis not just Israelis in English language reportage.I have a good friend from Brooklyn who is half Ukrainian Orthodox(dad is from The Ukraine) and he mother is a Jew From Moldova! He's even confused as to what his nationality is! He speaks Russian and not Ukrainian oddly enough.
Ukrainians also are divided between Orthodox and Catholic churches because a Polish prince forcibly converted people in the Ukraine he ruled! So the Ukrainians have gotten it from the Russians,The Poles and God knows who else...
[quote] In Russia, your ethnicity is even entered into your passport.
Ethnicity was entered into your passport in the Soviet Union, but once Russia became independent that practice ended. The Communist Party recently created controversy when it proposed putting ethnicity back on passports.
R60, that makes sense, when I was teenager I became friends with a girl who had recently moved here from Russia. I remember when she first moved to the neighborhood someone asked her what her ethnic background was, and she said "Jewish". I said "but Jewish is a religion, where are you from" and she said "Russia", and didn't really know why but her family always said Jewish. I didn't really understand it until this thread.
She was a nice girl, got bullied a bit because she was the only non-Italian or Puerto Rican in the neighborhood. Shortly after we became friends, she and her father knocked on our door early one Sunday morning with a loaf of freshly baked bread. I thought that was nice.
R63, it sounds as though little Natasha realized that she had found someone whose life was more tragic than hers.