What percentage of gay men died of AIDS during the 80's?

I was just a little kid during the 80's so I was oblivious to it all, but I have an 'eldergay' friend who's always telling me he has no idea how he lived through the 80's without getting HIV/AIDS, and how all of his friends at the time were dropping dead left and right. If you were in your adult years during the time, what percentage of your gay friends (or just peers) would you say were lost to AIDS?

• Well, aren't you just the most sensitive little shit in the history of the DataLounge?

• I'm sorry R1, what exactly do you want from me?

• r1, as someone who lived through that period and lost friends, I don't see OP's question as at all insensitive. It's a very important question and I'd like to know the answer. OP, even though I lived through the 80s, I can only give you anecdotal evidence. And all I can say is that i know many gay men, including myself, who survived (including some who became positive very early on and are still with us), and also know many gay men who died.

• Too bad R1 hadn't been one of them. Yeah, it is a good question, OP. I'm not sure.

• please honor the dead by learning the difference between plurals and possesssives... as in 80s, whcih is the plural form. (80's is possessive, and the decade did NOT own these people.)

• I'd say I lost about 80% of my gay friends and acquaintances by the time I was thirty.

• Thanks, R3 & R4. I wasn't aware that simply being curious about gay history was considered insensitive, but nothing surprises me here anymore. It seems that no matter WHAT thread topic I post about, it's met with snark. I could start a thread called "The sky is blue" and would inevitably be attacked for it. Why people pay $18 to be subjected to this is beyond me. I've certainly learned my lesson!

• Not that many for me. Maybe 15%.

• Snark alert @ R5

• .

  http://www.vh1.com/sitewide/promoimages/logos/az-project/eighties_281x211.jpg

• And I was involved in gay and AIDS activism, otherwise the number would have been under 5%.

  R8

• [quote]Why people pay $18 to be subjected to this is beyond me. I've certainly learned my lesson! You know something? It's only a tiny percentage that are nasty for the sake of it. It just seems like more because they sort of jump up at you. But you do need to develop a thick skin and never start a new thread when you're feeling vulnerable or sensitive, especially about something that you feel sensitive about. Also, it's good to answer back and stand your ground. They tend to fall away. They're just bullies and bullies are always cowards.

• The obituary section in most gay magazines were pretty full on a weekly basis. If I had to take a HUGE guess, I'd say 10% or less died. But that's of the whole population - if you took those between 25 and 40, I'm guessing it was like 25%, maybe more?

• 70-75%.

• [quote]If I had to take a HUGE guess, I'd say 10% or less died. I'd guess WAY more than that.

• Almost an entire generation of gay people wipe off the map. Be sure to see the recent Aids documentary.

• Here

  http://movies.nytimes.com/2012/09/21/movies/how-to-survive-a-plague-aids-documentary-by-david-france.html%3F_r%3D0

• I really would like an answer to this question.

  One of the 20% (?) who survived.

• I imagine it's something you're never going to have an accurate count. There's no real way to fix a true population size for gay men, especially in the 80s, and you'd still have the people who weren't publicly identified as AIDS deaths.

  The Voice of the Night

• A lot of guys who were staring to come out of the closet in the era of AIDS went running back in and never came out.

• I left DC when I had two friends left. I lost at least five I'd've called BFFs if they'd lived long enough to experience the internet, and another twenty five acquaintances, friends of friends, etc. There are certain songs, movies, restaurants, holidays, that are momentarily almost unbearably sad when I think about them. I can't sit through STEEL MAGNOLIAS because everyone I saw it with is dead; it hurts to listen to certain piano music; there's an Italian restaurant I could no longer go to. Also painful is missing those people I didn't know by name, necessarily, but whom I saw here and there, and was always drawn to, even though we didn't speak. And then there was the ineffable joy I felt when I ran into a man named Scott who I thought had died a couple of years earlier. We lived in the same building and used to walk to work together. That stopped when I moved, but we'd always stop to catch up, until he finally got a terrible case of AIDSface and I heard he never went out. I assumed he'd died, and then I ran into him on Connecticut Avenue and I cried and cried, as I am about to do now. It doesn't matter what percentage. It was too many.

• Using roughly math and assuming EVERY AIDS death in the 1980s was a gay man... Number of AIDS deaths in the USA 1980 -1989 (based on link) - 58,250 Number of Gay men in the USA (assuming roughly 5% of 150,000,000 American men) -7,500,000 So 58,250/7,500,000 = 0.7 %

  http://www.factlv.org/

• It's probably higher than that r22, but I agree it was very low. Still included a lot of people, just not a huge percentage.

• To both R6, and R21, your posts were very moving. I am sorry for your losses. I'm not the Op, but I was also just a young kid during the 80s. I am so sorry that you both lost dear friends to such a cruel disease.

• OP/R7, don't mind the crabby ones. I actually think it's great that you're curious about something that happened before you were around. Most eldergays on here bitch and moan constantly about younger men not paying any attention to history. I was a kid/teen during the 80s but even in the late 90s about a half dozen people that I knew died. They were mostly acquaintances but I did lose a close friend and roommate. I think for men in the 80s the number was significantly higher. The drug cocktails didn't come down the pike for a long time after the first case. I would also recommend checking out the JoeMyGod blog, as he's written a lot about the huge number of friends he lost.

• The percentage of gay people in metropolitan areas in the 18 to 45, even 50, was staggering. It varied by city, big cities of the midwest fared best, but those of the west coast and east coast lost a generation. I was 40 in 1985 and living in San Francisco. I will never forget the horrible weekly notices of those who had died. The listing was long and yet only a small fraction the total who had died in the Bay Area. All but two of my friends and acquaintances died and the numbers remained huge through 1995. I had lived in San Francisco all my life and I couldn't take being in the City after that. I moved to Chicago in '85, NYC in 88, London in 93 and Sydney 96, I've in LA since 98 and keep myself active. For some of us, the experience has as bad as the plagues of middle ages Europe.

• Ten years younger than R26 but also in San Francisco. There were a few years where it seemed like there would be a memorial service every month, for someone we had just seen in a performance or art show six months before. Agree that it seemed like the plagues in the middle ages. Unbearable to watch vibrant young men in horrible agony die.

• [quote](80's is possessive, and the decade did NOT own these people.) Well, if they died, maybe it did ...

• Clearly my soul mate (or mates) died before I ever got a chance to meet him (or them).

  Been%20terminally%20single%20since%20the%2080s

• OP, watch the movie "Longtime Companion" to get a feel for how it was. And the contrast, between the full beach, and the empty beach... it's breath-taking and drives home how an entire generation was lost. Then watch "And the Band Played On". I was a teen and early 20-something during the 80s. I was so terrified I didn't have sex until I was 22 (and not with more than one man until I was 27). I lost several friends, including one I cared for until he died in the hospital. It was a gut-wrenching time. I know dozens of guys who are HIV positive now, and I've known them for many, many years (decades in some cases). HIV isn't the death sentence it once was. In those early years, you just have no idea how terrifying it was. Honestly, I think it fucked me up. Broke me.

• [quote]80's is possessive, and the decade did NOT own these people An apostrophe followed by the letter 's' is commonly (and correctly) used to denote the plural of numbers and individual letters. ex; There are two l's in my name. the 1980's.

• The Associated Press style is '80s. Some other publications, including the New York Times, use the construction 80's. Either is correct. Move on.

  Journalist

• There were 35,000-50,000 casualties annually from 1990-1997 and then the numbers decreased from 50-80 percent because of medical advances. But there are 50,000 new cases diagnosed annually.

  http://www.factlv.org/timeline.htm

• Thanks for the recommendations, R30. I've seen And the Band Played On but I'll check out Longtime Companion. I found the full movie on YouTube if anyone else is interested and hasn't seen it...

  http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D6Cx6L_0pKYo

• I'm not sure what R1 wants. The history of AIDS needs to be remembered, not put into a place that's never spoken of. I was lucky in that I was only 14 when it really hit so I didn't lose anyone close but throughout the years I've become close to people who are positive.

• I lived in San Francisco, and I saw a co-worker die within a month after he quit. He looked like he could run a long race, then. Then I read a write-up about a guy who found out he was mis-diagnosed years afterwards. The hell he went through all the while he thought he was going to be a victim, I can't imagine! For some of us there was the constant tension of wonderin' if symptoms would show up, and yet not wanting to know. Then there were those whose T-cells were so very low, yet they were active.

  anonymous

• The effects were concentrated especially in large cities with populous gay ghettos, because those infected would sleep around with multiple people in a concentrated populate population, and they would become infected, and it would exponentially increase (just as any plague increases in larger cities with infected people). Thus your chances were much better percentage-wise if you were gay and living in Boise or Duluth than if you were gay and living in San Francisco (which was hit worse than any other city) or Manhattan.

• R12, because this is more fun than pulling the wings off of flies.

• OP, thank you for asking. I appreciate your empathy and curiosity about an epic event in our history. For a perspective what most San Franciscans experienced in the 80s and early 90s (thank you, r5), I would recommend seeing the documentary "We Were Here," and another about AIDS/HIV activism, watch "How To Survive A Plague". Both might be on Netflix. I was a young medical researcher in Early Eighty's S.F. at the time, had just come out, then ended up watching many study subjects, friends, co-workers, neighbors, an ex-lover, acquaintances, etc., die. Have no idea what the mortality statistics of my own community back then might be, but it was way, way, too many.

  Still%20Here

• Well I grew up in a small town. I was 17 in 1980 so no internet, computers, TV shows or anything really except a one hour radio show called IMRU. It was only that show where I heard that some people in the big cities were breaking out with some kind of gay cancer. They didnt even know how it was spread or why it seemed to only affect gay men. It seemed like only a hand full of people. 7 years later, I am living in Los Angels with my partner from the same town. I was monogamous so I thought I was safe. We broke up. I start dating, meet a guy and we decided to go get tested together. I though for sure he was positive but I was going to be ok with that. After a 2 week waiting period, we finally got the results. Went in to pic up the paper work from the clinic and the guy says, "well, your positive" I was devastated. No cure, my prognosis was not good. I held it in for about a month until I told my family or any other friends. A big recession hit, office closed and I lost my job. My X would not go get tested no matter how much I begged him. Died two years later. His family was freaky religious so I raise money for his funeral and did all the speaking myself. I decided to do something for other people before I left the planet. I signed up to be a guinea pig for some unknown double blind drug test. Even though it might ruin my chances of good drugs working later, I felt if it helped other gay people down the line it was worth it. I never got to find out the results. I was really depressed and alone, without a job, part of my life gone and looking at impending doom. So I did what all self respecting gay men do, I went to a bar. Felling sorry for myself, the bar was having a fundraiser for someone with AIDS in need of financial help. It was like that every week in those days. I chipped in a few bucks for a raffle thinking at lest its something, because I was almost broke. Well, out of the blue, I won the stupid raffle. The guy came to give me the cash and said if you want, some people kick back a couple of dollars. I though you know what, that guy is hurting, he need it more then I do, I told him to take the entire pot of cash and give it to the person being honored. The bar cheered and I was embarrassed. (it was the first time in a leather bar. LOL) Things turned for me on that day. I realized I was being selfish all that time. Things changed after that. A few years later they invented combination therapy (the cocktail). It seemed to be working, people stopped dropping like fly. The doctors offices went from standing room only, to one or two people in the lounge and even laying staff off. Maybe I was just lucky. I saw a lot of other people die who didn't respond well to the drugs. But somehow I am still alive. I am undetectable and never had an opportunistic infection (AIDS diagnosis). I'm in another long term relationship, and guys still occasionally flirt with me. I survived the war, but still shell shocked. So cut some of us older gays some slack next time you call us bitter trolls and write us off. We have been through a lot you younger guys will fortunately, never have to experience.

  hptguy

• R40, thanks for posting your story. Actually, thanks to everyone on the thread for posting.

• Omg, it was awful. I miss my dear friends that died so tragically.

• I was younger, but it seemed like back then it was mostly friends of friends that were in their mid 20s to mid 30s. Some guys would just give up and not even try to save themselves. Would not go to doctors since there was no cure. Partied their ass off till they got too sick to play. I had one friend that I lost contact with when he moved across country. I found out he died when I walked into a new clinic and his name and picture was on the wall in his honor. The first gay bar I ever went to, I knew 3 bar tenders, the owner, and patrons. Evey single one of theme that worked there is now dead. Still hard to wrap my head around that. It was random like that. Some people were immensely effected and other sort of slipped by without much notice.

• Well it is almost a generation lost. I am guessing like 50% gone over the course of 20 years and maybe half of the guys still alive are probably long term survivors. The thing is, it dosent kill you right away. Before the meds came out, you could almost predict how much time you had based on your t-cell count. So if you tested out at say 600 t-cells and you only lost say 100 a year, 200 was the magic number where people got sick and died within months usually. So when thoese first few guys started dying, they were probably positive 10 years before that.

• That sad part is, most of the younger guys today think its an eldergay problem. Or they will only get it if they sleep with old guys. The reality is, HIV infection rate is higher in the 20 something age group now then when AIDS first came out.

• For DL newbies: The R1 is ALWAYS supposed to be a cunt. It's DL tradition. Thank you, carry on.

• The phobia and fear level was high then too. Doctors didn't know what to do so they were just giving guys cortisone shot in their lymph nodes. I remember a then elder gay telling me to watch out for that. He pointed out a couple of guys in a gay bar that had these huge welts like a bee sting on their necks.

• I have to say, Lesbians despite their normal standoffish demeanor really jumped in to help us boys. None of them were getting sick so they could have just ignored the whole problem. But some of them did really get out there and help us raise money, start organizations, and really the first time I felt we were brothers and sisters. I often wonder now with the new generation of women if they would rise to the occasion given that they are completely disassociated from the experience their elder sisters experienced.

• [quote]There were 35,000-50,000 casualties annually from 1990-1997 and then you link to a site that proves you wrong? 1990 - 18,447 (not quite 35,000) 1991 - 20,454 (again, not quite 35,000) 1992 - 23,411 (still not quite 35,000) 1993 - 41,920 (Finally passed 35,000, you're 1 for 4) 1994 - 32,330(still shy of 35,000) 1995 - 48,371 (2 out of 6) 1996 - 34,947 (still not 35,000) 1997 - 21,399 (sigh... still way short)

• What is your point R49? Add those up why dont you? How many Americans died in the last 2 Bush Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? 2000 troops? 241,279 deaths from AIDS is equal to 120 TIMES MORE then all of the men lost in war since 911. And we are talking about a tiny percent of the American population that's gay. That' still a big hit to one generation.

• A better question, R48, is whether gay men would ever rise up to help their lesbian sisters.

• My point is that we grossly exaggerate the numbers for dramatic effect, as if the truth wasn't bad enough. When you lie to make a point you lose credibility. Credibility on this topic is kind of important. [quote]241,279 deaths from AIDS is equal to 120 TIMES MORE then all of the men lost in war since 911. [quote]That' still a big hit to one generation. So true! Both of those statements stand on their own. But when you throw in "There were 35,000-50,000 casualties annually from 1990-1997" you are wrong and you pollute everything else you say.

• Gay men paved the way for all gay people, so yes, R48 I think they would. Gay men don't mind lesbians in their hangouts, not true the other way around. The younger gay men are just tired of straight women using them to fill in for their husbands that wont dance with them, shop with or do couples things with them other then sex. Oh and help them move AND redecorate. Lesbians don't seem to USE gay men that way. So, gay men don't usually have a problem with gay women. Other then you guys just seem to disappear for years at a time then reappear as if nothing happened.

• R5 is a stupid dick. 80's is right WITH the apostrophe. You don't say the Roaring 20s. You say the Roaring 20's. In this case it's not used as possessive. Learn the fucking English language, then post.

• The people that die/died, are/were they all bottoms? You can't really get it from topping can you? Magic Johnson clearly got fucked in the ass, right?

• Don't assume every aids death was counted because many were not diagnosed or reported. The numbers will be vastly different depending on where you live. AIDS was being spread in the metro areas long before it hit the provinces.

• Seriously R55? Is that a joke? I will assume you are asking a real question just in case your are young. So no not all bottoms. Butter risk only because its possible to get fucked and not know that you might have got a small tear inside. Look at it this way, if tops didnt have HIV then bottoms would never get it.

• There was a lot of misdiagnosis (or under-diagnosis) of HIV disease at the time. One of my college advisees died in 1987 at age 21. His parents did not want to admit to their family/friends/Church that he was gay, so the obits mentioned that he died only of pneumonia. There was a lot of closeted men in those years whose cause of deaths were also misrepresented. The death toll seemed especially large in urban areas where young gay men gathered. Not only were the population higher in those areas, but also an "ease of transmission". My partner is from Nebraska, and there just were not many other gay men there to meet up for sex or even dating. I lived in DC from 1979-2000, and recall the year when there were multiple HIV/AIDS related obits in the Blade every week. But I also had friends pass whose obits were not in the Blade (their parents did not want anything in the public domain about the deaths --- the shame of the closet was especially strong among out-of-town family).

• R56 has a good point. Most went unreported. Even the big celebrity that were obviously gay denied it. Liberace said the reason he was loosing weight was because he was on a watermelon diet. For you younger guys, this is him in full glory:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DwD7dw_BW_UI

• Rock Hudson was probably the most famous actor at the time to die of AIDS. Most people, except gay in the know thought he was straight. While a lot of people embraced his openness about it, I feel it was just a last minute ditch to save his legacy. He was basically going to doctors for years, knew what he had and hid it until about 2 weeks before his death. What did he have to loose? Most of those celebrities did nothing for us in the beginning like they fain now. Pay attention younger gay men, the only celebrity to say screw it, I dont care what people say, and come to our defense was Elizabeth Taylor. YEARS before anyone else. She was not just some Hollywood diva like what we got today.

• There was only one person that I know of back then who came out before they were on their death bed and that was Elizabeth Glaser. She was the wive of Paul Micheal Glaser (Starsky & Hutch) Got HIV from a blood transfusion during child birth. There is a whole foundation created in her name. One of her kids died of it too passed on at birth.

• R60, I agree that Hudson was no hero to gays for announcing he had AIDS at the last minute. But I disagree that his being gay was only widely known in the gay community. I remember my mom, from the WW2 generation, remarking that "everyone knew he was gay." The tabloids successfully outed him to the mainstream long before he was dying of AIDS.

• Why did Hudson do Dynasty? Didn't it really put him back in the public eye for the wrong reasons?

• This is why I can't understand why the fuck little hipster gaylings (or even worse, deluded, nostalgic eldergays) wish to romanticize/idealize the '80s as some "cool, fun" decade. Yeah. Reagan, AIDS, Republicans. Sooo great. Sooo fun. For every little baby-step forward that the late '60s and '70s took forward, the '80s took 5 steps back, and the '90s/00s/'10s have had to correct. Yeah, fuck the '80s hard and deep, indeed.

• Well that's funny R 62. I asked my mom that same question. She said there were rumors, but people back then didn't talk about that stuff in polite company. You wouldn't just bring that up at a party. So lots of people didn't now. There was no TMZ or over the line paparazzi. If fact, he sort of had a deal with the press not to talk about it. Everyone knew, but it was a secret.

  http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/movies-1/nbsp-nbsp-by-roger-ebert.html

• I would never want to go back to the 80's R64. You are right about most of that. Only thing I still like was the music and fun break from traditional style. So in a sense, what was cool about the 80s that you dont get is the rebel against the other stuff you mentioned in the 80's. IF you were the rebel, it was fun. Of course, now its just fun to laugh at.

• R66, that's just the thing. The '80s was the beginning of the American public embracing the "fun" of pop-[MTV]culture at the expense of ignoring the harsher, more important reality of shitty politics/economy/etc. And worse than that, I will never, EVER (I know, Mary!) forgive the Republican '80s for "catsup as a vegetable" public school lunches, CIA-sponsored crack epidemics, voodoo trickle-down economics, the phantom fear of "welfare queens", or the bullying of little boys like Ryan White. [I could go on and on and on]. So long disgusting '80s. Rest in piss --- progressive gay rights and a black president is exactly what you and your apologists deserve. It's finally morning in America, indeed!

• Hugs, R21. (I was just in my teens/20s in the early 90s, and I only knew a couple of people that died of AIDS. Recently, I had eleven dear friends and family members die with a 2.5-year period (and my partner of 15 years and I broke up too). The losses shell-shocked me beyond belief, and I am still recovering, though feeling better. I really can't fathom how people kept putting one foot in front of another back in the late 1980s and early 1990s. People like you and the other survivors here. But you did, and that is amazing. I think until I went through it myself I did not truly realize how comprehensively shattering it is to lose friend after friend after friend (etc.). Much love to all of you on the thread who went through so much, and thank you for reminding us of those who are gone, and also how your own lives carried on.)

  %28female%20volunteer%20in%20early%2090s%29

• [quote] It doesn't matter what percentage. It was too many. amen.

• [quote]This is why I can't understand why the fuck little hipster gaylings (or even worse, deluded, nostalgic eldergays) wish to romanticize/idealize the '80s as some "cool, fun" decade. Yeah. Reagan, AIDS, Republicans. Sooo great. Sooo fun. Hmm, I don't know--maybe the fact that we were "little hipster gaylings" at the time & were oblivious to all those negative things you just listed? God forbid we reminisce about our childhoods when, from our perspectives at the time, life WAS cool and fun. You're obviously one of those people who wants everyone around you to be just as miserable as you are. Well it ain't happening!

  I%20LOVE%20THE%2080%27s%21

• R5 is not a stupid dick, R54. Somewhere along the line, the rule changed and 80’s was deemed correct in addition to the already correct ‘80s. I'll never write it any other way than ‘80s, with the apostrophe in front of the 8, to indicate the contraction. R55 Three friends who contracted HIV always insisted they were exclusive tops. Two have died.

  R21

• Thank you for sharing your story, R40.

• Three.

  Wise%20Old%20Owl

• Yes thank you R21 and R40. I wasn't even going to look at this thread and I am not going to relay my personal losses and how it changed me forever. Can't. I miss many people still and as R40 stated and shows there a lot of shell shocked older gay men walking in this world. Lots of heroes too. One thing I know for sure is that it isn't much worth worrying about percentages or grammar. My doctor(who is straight if that matters)once put his head down on his desk and cried in front of me saying that he didn't go into medicine to have all his patients die. The eighties were tough years and days. So much collective fear and sadness. Lots of love, lost.

• I wonder how the counts were made -- one man I knew died from a heart attack from the damage AZT wrought. In the final count, as he an AIDS death or a cardiac casualty?

• [quote]This is why I can't understand why the fuck little hipster gaylings (or even worse, deluded, nostalgic eldergays) wish to romanticize/idealize the '80s as some "cool, fun" decade. It's the same with any decade that is 'idealized'. The roaring 20s (or 20's, or '20s) was actually a decade that of great racism, xenophobia, suppression of free speech and economic turmoil. We think of it as all Charleston and flappers and bathtub gin.

• No one except little hipster gaylings romanticizes the 80s. But they're stupid.

  70s%20fun%20and%20games.

• Exactly, R76. A lot of gay men romanticized the 70s as this fabulous era of free love, massive amounts of sex and drugs available at all times and just a non-stop party. But the 70s were really uncertain and bumpy. There was massive gas shortages, the hostage crisis, Nixon's resignation, and a few big recessions. It was the beginning of the total collapse of manufacturing in the US. And as for the clubs/sex - it did exist, but in far fewer places than the books and movies would have us think.

• It was a nightmare.

• I was just coming of age in the early 80's when AIDS was first making headlines. I had one close friend die in 1989, a handful of acquaintances around that time, as well. There were the celebrity deaths we knew, like Rock Hudson. In the 90's, I had another friend pass away, which I didn't find out about until later - he'd kept his infection a secret from me. In the last decade, I had a former colleague and close friend pass away. But the 80's before even AZT, it seemed like it was everywhere, and most of the hottest gay guys ended up dying - something like 50%, in my estimation.

• I was just hitting my teens when AIDS hit, so I was terrified of having sex until I was well into my twenties. I was in a community theater production of Jesus Christ Superstar in 1987 or so in a mid-size Midwest town. Large male cast, 12 disciples, Jesus, Judas, Pilate, priests, etc., so probably 20-25 guys in the cast, not all of them gay, but plenty of them. At least 10 died of AIDS, if you include the guy who killed himself sometime after testing positive.

• I live in NYC and in the 80s and early 90s it was harrowing. I would say about 1 out of 3 day men I knew within 10-15 years of my age (b 1953) died. In some cases whole groups of friends. It was like nothing I could ever have imagined as a young adult and most deaths were gruesome- much the same in San Francisco and to a degree LA. It was surreal. I have a good life, but barely a day goes by that I do not recall the losses and the suffering and at times I weep over it- I am not depressed- I love life, but it was quite the experience and has made a big mark on my life.

• My husband and myself arrived in SF in 1972. We had a large circle of friends in the city and 95% died. It was awful. You would hear that someone was "diagnosed" and within a year and a half or less they were gone. We go so burned out going to memorials, we just don't do it anymore. It damaged everyone.

• I came out 10-15 years after the first case, but even in the mid-90s I can remember - in my small little ass backwards rust belt town - being in a gay bar one Friday night. One guy in the group of the "in" clique of bitches at the bar tested positive and either someone blabbed or he told the wrong person, but in any case, word traveled fast. He went to join his friends - nasty ass bitches - and they all looked at him, gave him the wordless stink eye - and turned their back on him. I still hate them. I can't imagine dealing with the actual virus/illness and then also getting that kind of treatment from people. It boggles my mind, but while we had a lot of people helping and fighting the epidemic, there was also plenty of people who gave that sort of shitty treatment to those with HIV/AIDS.

• r40 That's a very inspiring account. I wish you a long and happy life.

• Betweem 1980 and 2010 according to the CDC about 500,000 Americans died of AIDS, with most of the deaths in New York and Florida. The CDC says slightly over one million Americans are HIV+ and 47% of them are African American, despite blacks making up about 12% of the general population. The Kaiser Foundation of California estimates about 90,000 gay males have died of AIDS since 1980 (which would be about 18%). But Kaiser says the number may be somewhat higher due to self reporting that many gay males in the 80s refused to ID themselves as gay.

• 30,000 a year is 1% of 3 million. Over 10 years it adds up. Decimate means 10% dead. Especially when you're generation isn't supposed to be dying yet. Choose different numbers for the denominator or numerator of the fraction as you like but the bigger losses like other posters described fit within the range for all the reasons people gave.

• So in the 80s, if you were not hot, maybe you were lucky?

• R88 Please try to be a little more thought-full about what you are saying. Being hot or not has nothing to do with it, nor does what you are implying.

  thanks

• You're vile R88.

• [quote]30,000 a year is 1% of 3 million. Where do you get 30,000 a year? And why 3 million (1 % of the US population? Is that supposed to be the number of gay men?)

• I loved the '70s, R78. Sorry your '70s were "bumpy and uncertain."

• And the Band Played On is a must read, especially now with the death of Ed Koch and people lionizing Ronald Reagan. It is crazy to read about the level of denial on all sides, and I can't believe it was during my lifetime. Lots of finger pointing, anger and denial that led to countless deaths.

  anonymous

• Timing of when a person contracted the virus was key to survival. Brian May of Queen said if Freddie Mercury contracted the disease a few years later (he is estimated to have gotten HIV about 1986-87), he would have survived with the advances in medicine and research.

• I also came of age in the early 80s and was terrified of having sex or even kissing another guy. I, probably like a lot of other paranoid gay guys, slithered back into the closet and stayed there for several years until I got up the courage to start having sex with guys. It was a terrifying time. Not then, but in hindsight I do feel like somewhat of a coward for retreating to the closet, but it did save my life. I can only begin to imagine the horror that guys my age who did had the courage to pursue their lives as a gay man must've experienced and witnessed.

• Now that I've recovered from this thread from yesterday, I remember working in the lab with blood from GRID patients, some of whom were friends and colleagues. A viral etiology was implied, but no one knew for sure. Didn't know if I'd been exposed through sex or working in the lab and if doing so increased my risk. There was so much hysteria. I was far more worried about the possible genocide of the entire (sexually active) gay community that whether or not I had "it". Until the HIV test was available, I was shunned, or approached with caution by many of those who knew where I was working, including potential dates. There was so much fear back then, OP.

  r39

• Interesting to see that not only has the OP continued to merit the low opinion I had of him/her (smells bad either way), but that he has equally offensive nitwits who can't - because of spoiled entitlement, social ignorance and a lack of discretion - see that using phrases such as "dropping dead left and right," "always telling me," and "nothing surprises me anymore" reflect a fundamental void. Imagine, you arrogant, slack-jawed nuisance, speaking pejoratively ("Oh, I didn't mean to!") to Jews about the Holocaust while trumpeting your ignorance of it, and then jabbing them about percentages. Oh, and if you happen to be a gay guy and not a twat, it would akin to a younger Jew doing it? You really have no decency, at heart, do you? And, of course, the whole point of being such a creature is that you cannot understand what people are talking about when they react to your offensiveness. Idiot. Foul idiots, you and your clot of clowns.

• WELL! Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed today.

• wtf r97?

• r53 rocks!!

  lipstick%20les%20who%20LOVES%20gay%20men

• I lived in New York City's Greenwich Village in 1982 and had been there since 1972. I was 40 and had participated in all of the gay activities and venues for all that time: the baths, bars, summers on Fire Island, the discos, etc. So I admitedly was at the center of the inferno. I was friends with Larry Kramer and even played a part in the founding of GMHC. I kept a list of all those who died: ex-lovers, friends, acquaintances. I stopped after it went over 150. I would estimate that 90% of my friends died. I have today no cohort of buddies with similar experiences. I suffered a nervous breakdown very early on when this began, in September 1982, because for some reason I could see what was to come, and it turned out to be true. All those who died then were infected before any of us knew there was a virus spreading among us. Today I have a diagnosis of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. It is no exaggeration to state that AIDS has been the most significant and the most tragic event of my life.

• (hugging R101)

• Much love r101. I think people here had different experiences and that both points of view are valid. R101 and many people like him saw many or most of their friends, acquaintances and FOFs die during that time. It devastated the gay populations of a certain stratum in NYC, SF and a couple other cities with large gay populations. However, it is also true that throughout a lot of the US, it wasn't the case for many reasons. No one will ever know the exact count. Many times the cause of death was "liver cancer" or some such thing.

• I once heard Bob Hope casually say on tv, that some famous hollywood names, some of them very big, died of Aids. He said the papers listed some other cause for their deaths.

  anonymous

• AIDS deaths seem bigger because they were concentrated in Florida, New York and San Francisco. Smaller concentrations were in Los Angeles, New Orleans, DC and Atlanta. Still smaller were the major cities like Chicago, Philly and Boston. This made the problem seem worse because you had pockets where large numbers of gays died. On the flip side you had cities largely untouched by the AIDS crisis, in the west and in rural states like Maine, Vermont and Arkansas. AIDS has always been blown out of proportion to it's casualties, because people assumed it would get into the general population. When this failed to happen, the real treatments and problem solving started to happen.

• r105 is right. In some circles it would indeed seem that everyone died whereas on a national scale it wasn't as severe. Numbers don't really tell the whole story though. There was a large amount of fear and paranoia and disinformation. Still I think every gay man, regardless of location, was touched in some way by the crisis.

• {R88] Has been taken to task for insensitivity. Perhaps that is true,however, I have often thought perhaps I was lucky that I wasn't the hottest little fuck bunny around.

• Why Florida? That seems kind of random.

• US government terrorized the gay population. oh make no mistake this is where Hiv came from. Genocide

• I usually don't believe in conspiracies, but the Reagan administration was packed full of the most vile, evil and anti-gay people to run a government since Nazi Germany. So I would not be shocked to see evidence that someone in the Reagan administration started the AIDS epidemic. I have seen no evidence of this yet, but it certainly seems possible. The Reagan people were out of control and evil. They all have rightwing radio talk shows today.

• What R110 said, only the evil probably began earlier, with LBJ.

• r110, I don't understand how Reagan and his cronies could have started the epidemic. Most of the guys who got sick early on probably sero-converted 5-10 years earlier.

• R101, if you are still reading this, I can truly Identify. There is no on left to share common experiences from my life. I can understand why older folks become depressed as all their friends die along with some one to talk and remember together about shared life experiences. It is hard to explain this loss and void. You are not alone in this.

• Please don't confuse the tin-hats with facts, R112.

• R112, So you mean they sero-converted while the anti-gay Nixon administration was in power?

• or Ford or Carter.

• Yes, I'm sure Jerry Ford set out to mastermind the extinction of the gay community. Good grief.

• No it was Reagan who DENIED funding, and refused to say the word AIDS out loud, and denied that there was an epidemic that was killing so many... denied it because they were gay. THAT is what Reagan did wrong. Reprehensible, disgusting. And all those who concoct some kind of freeper hagiography about him.

• Get it in the butt. Get the aids.

• According to the CDC, by the end of 1989, 90,628 had died of AIDS and another 60,711 were PWA. If anyone knows where I could find the state stats broken up by counties, that would be a help.

• Where did you get those stats r120? I'm not finding that breakdown on the CDC website. Interesting though that the site says that only 46 % of all HIV infections in the USA were from Male to Male sexual contact.

  http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5021a2.htm%23tab1

• [quote] I will assume you are asking a real question just in case your are young. So no not all bottoms. Butter risk only because its possible to get fucked and not know that you might have got a small tear inside. Is that English? Butter? I'm confused. How do tops get HIV? I guess it's just spread throughout versatiles?

• What they died from was drugs - both pharma(especially HIV drugs) and recreational.

  Mrs%20Patrick%20Campbell%20%28believes%20what%20she%20sees%2C%20not%20what%20she

• How does the virus get shot into your system if you're topping?

• R121 -- the site I found back in 2005 (when I researched a history for the 30th anniversary of the first NYTimes article) had cases diagnosed and deaths by year starting in 1980. Your table kind of groups them all into periods and doesn't list deaths separately.

• R124 blowjobs?

• This site seems to match your figures, r125. This map gives Diagnosis breakdown by state

  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/U_S_Aids_Map_2009_Estimated.svg

• Sorry... THIS site

  http://www.amfar.org/about_hiv_and_aids/more_about_hiv_and_aids/thirty_years_of_hivaids__snapshots_of_an_epidemic/

• Was watching Boys in the Band on youtube the other day, and I realized that all five of the out gay actors died of AIDS. Although Peter White is still alive, and I've never been sure of his orientation. LaTourneaux who played the rentboy actually became one in real life. His story is probably the saddest of all.

• R122 and R124: Gay tops get infected with HIV the same way that straight men get infected from screwing infected women.

• Ignorance is appalling. Gay tops get infected with gonorrhea from fucking (without a condom) an ass infected with gonorrhea.

• How does the virus get into the penis? Through the urethra? If your Penis doesnt tear or bleed, how do you get it? Can you get HIV from being blown? What about kissing?

• Something in saliva has been shown to suppress viral transmission, but it's not anywhere near 100% The virus binds to mucous membranes and enters the body through them... these membranes include the inside of foreskin, the inside of the urethra, the rectum, and the inside lining of the lips and cheeks, as well as the throat. Because of saliva, oral sex is safer than anal sex, but... "safer" isn't "safe". There can also be micro tears in the skin... in the mouth from, say, brushing or flossing, and in the penis from, say, vigorous fucking or masturbation. And of course, it's far easier to get micro-tears in the rectum/anus. This makes it even easier for the virus to enter the blood stream.

• Random related story I thought about in light of this thread: In the late 80's, there was a door guy at a gay club I'd go to - very hot young guy. He died about 1989 or 90. I recall one of the bartenders at the place there later stating about him words to the effect, "yeah, it's too bad, but he had a lot of fun." Here it is now, about 25 years later and I'm still here, still attractive and fit. I never had nearly as much sex as most others did, most of the time. There are times when I ask myself, if I could go back and overdose on sex knowing that I'd die by the age of 30, would I do it, I have to say no. Of course, hindsight is 20/20 as they say, and when your hormones are raging, you don't have much of a choice.

• 69%, Rose.

  D.%20Zbornak

• All you have to do is go to a city like NY or SF and count the number of gay men in any given gay establishment who are over 50 compared to the number of gay men under 50. The contrast is quite obvious. I was just a kid in the 80s so I wasn't directly affected by AIDS, and I really can't imagine the fear and sadness of living through that time. And quite a few young guys my age think nothing of barebacking - it really angers me that some of us have really learned nothing.

• [quote]All you have to do is go to a city like NY or SF and count the number of gay men in any given gay establishment who are over 50 compared to the number of gay men under 50. Well, a lot of gay men outgrow these 'establishments' (I assume you are talking about bars?)

• [quote]How does the virus get into the penis? There have been scientific studies showing that the inside of the foreskin is susceptible to "catching" the virus. They describe "receptor" cells in that area. It seems to be a major form of transmission heterosexually in africa.

• I am 50 and moved to West Hollywood in 1989 and those first 7 years there before the anti-viral cocktail were such a mixed time...I think people were trying to live in the moment and really enjoy they day...I remember the tests that people started to get...finding out their t-cells and then finding out their viral load and then doing the math and trying to figure out how much time they had and if they had a life insurance policy, should they sell it and go on vacation or some friends would just go on credit card binges because they knew they wouldn't live long enough to pay the bill if they got dragged into court...I lived in Orlando,FL from 1985 - 89 and AIDS was just beginning to show up with people dying..my ex-boyfriend tested positive and I remember he had to go in the backdoor of the doctors office in Orlando and getting AZT was something that you went to the underground for......I went to see Madonna with a group of friends in 1987 in Miami...ten of us went and only two of us are alive today.....all but one died from HIV, the other was a drug overdose.....so I do think a high percentage of guys in the ghettos did die....I think about 1/3 to 1/2 of the guys I knew from the Athletic Club in West Hollywood died......so many of their names are on the West Hollywood Memorial Walk on Santa Monica Blvd....looking back on it now, it seems like some horrible science fiction movie...but reality kicks in when I occasionally run into guys from my nights Studio One or the Athletic Club....many of those that survived have moved to Palm Springs or out of town......I still live in West Hollywood....and at times, it is a ghost town to me......but am glad I survived that chapter with my health intact.....

• The foreskin, which if unfolded would measure 20 to 30 square inches (that's 400-600 inches for size queens), contains a large number of a variety of cells called Langerhans. They are concentrated on the inner foreskin layer, which lies directly against the head of the penis. Langerhan cells are biological magnets for HIV. Because of this, the inner foreskin layer can absorb HIV up to nine times more efficiently than a woman's cervix. Usually, Langerhan cells play a protective role. They ingest pathogens and ferry them down lhymph channels along the penis to the lymph glands in your groin to be killed by white cells. A Langerhan cell will swallow HIV as readily as any other bacteria or virus, but unlike other pathogens, HIV will reproduce thousands of copies of itself inside the Langerhan's belly for the duration of its trip through your lymph system (about five days). After reaching the lymph nodes in your groin, the Langerhan cell explodes--literally--spewing tens of thousands of copies of HIV, where it then rapidly infects other immune cells before slipping into the bloodstream. If that's not enough, the intact foreskin is also susceptible to small tears and abrasions during sex that can provide even more opportunities for HIV to enter the body. Remember, though, that HIV can (and does) enter the body through a circumcised penis via small abrasions, preexisting STDs such as herpes, and/or the urethra.

• How in the world does an unfolded foreskin measure 20-30 square inches?? You mean 2-3?

• The fact remains, that anyone who was holy and pure and didn't have premarital sex, didn't get AIDS, UNLESS they were a victim. That means raped or hemophiliac. The druggies and homosexuals were just asking for it. The same way fat people ask for heart attacks and smokers ask for lung cancer. If you lie down with dogs why are you shocked when you wake up with fleas?

• ONLY people who cross the street get hit by cars UNLESS they were a victim of car rape.

• I stopped counting after 44 of my friends and acquaintances died. I would say I lost about 65% of my "circle."

  Negative%2C%20and%20lucky

• How does anyone not understand how a top gets HIV? Sounds like extreme ignorance...

• Obviously the risk is greatest for bottoms, but there is a risk for the top.

• R142 There was a time when no one even knew how HIV was spread, so nobody knew that being "holy and pure" would avoid it.

• Op, WHY do you need to know this? Are you trying to understand what trauma really is?

• r110 - it was developed during the Nixon administration, black Africans were the main target, seems like they went after gays in the united states merely for kicks

• I lived in SF from 1984 to 1995 and I felt like The Flying Dutchman -- going from one hopeless shipwreck to another. I would say I lost 80% of the people I knew and worked with. Sometimes I have dreams about them. I'll be in a disco with great lighting and music and I am having a good time when all of a sudden these beautiful people like angels walk in holding these glowing stars and moons in their hands. They all bend down and place the stars on the dance floor and they turn into all my dead friends. And we have one last dance together. I always wake up with a feeling of joy and happiness after I have this dream. Everyone looks like they did at their peak. The Bay Area Reporter kept a record of all the obituaries they printed from the start to the end of the AIDS holocaust. It's startling how many died.

  http://70.90.168.98/olo/

• R150 - sort of like Longtime Companion. I recall seeing this at the Music Box Theater in Chicago with an HIV+ friend of mine who passed a couple years later. He was someone who was truly always the life of the party, always smiling and laughing, but when that beach scene happened, he was in such tears, I'd never seen him like that. It was heartbreaking.

• It's hard for me to comprehend the percentages. I worked in a corporate travel agency in SF. Out of 30 or so men in the office all but two were gay. Only three of us survived. We were all around the same age. One overweight black guy, one somewhat overweight white guy (me) and one closeted guy married to woman from London survived.

• Go to r150s link and search on the year 1991 Then you'll see how many just in SF, and not only that, many didn't get obits. I did a study back in 2005 and learned only about 1 in 10 people who died of AIDS were commemorated anywhere.

• Step by Step: How to Make a Panel For The Quilt You don’t have to be an artist or sewing expert to create a moving personal tribute remembering a life lost to AIDS, but you do have to make a panel in order to add a name to The Quilt. It’s not as complicated as many people think, though. It doesn’t matter if you use paint or fine needlework, iron-on transfers or hand made appliques, or even spray paint on a sheet; any remembrance is appropriate. (This is however the only way to have a name added to The Quilt- by making a panel to remember your lost loved one.) You may choose to create a panel privately as a personal memorial or you may choose to follow the traditions of old-fashioned quilting bees by including friends, family, and co-workers. That choice, like virtually everything else involved in making a panel, is completely up to you. Here in a few easy steps is how to create a panel for The Quilt: 1. Design the panel Include the name of the person you are remembering. Feel free to include additional information such as the dates of birth and death, hometown, special talents, etc. We ask that you please limit each panel to one individual (obvious exceptions include siblings or spouses). 2. Choose your materials Remember that The Quilt is folded and unfolded every time it is displayed, so durability is crucial. Since glue deteriorates with time, it is best to sew things to the panel. A medium-weight, non-stretch fabric such as a cotton duck or poplin works best. Your design can be vertical or horizontal, but the finished, hemmed panel must be 3 feet by 6 feet (90 cm x 180 cm)– no more and no less! When you cut the fabric, leave an extra 2-3 inches on each side for a hem. If you can’t hem it yourself, we’ll do it for you. Batting for the panels is not necessary, but backing is recommended. Backing helps to keep panels clean when they are laid out on the ground. It also helps retain the shape of the fabric. 3. Create the panel In constructing your panel you might want to use some of the following techniques: Applique: Sew fabric, letters and small mementos onto the background fabric. Do not rely on glue – it won’t last. Paint: Brush on textile paint or color-fast dye, or use an indelible ink pen. Please don’t use “puffy” paint; it’s too sticky. Stencils: Trace your design onto the fabric with a pencil, lift the stencil, then use a brush to apply textile paint or indelible markers. Collage: Make sure that whatever materials you add to the panel won’t tear the fabric (avoid glass and sequins for this reason), and be sure to avoid very bulky objects. Photos: The best way to include photos or letters is to photocopy them onto iron-on transfers, iron them onto 100% cotton fabric and sew that fabric to the panel. You may also put the photo in clear plastic vinyl and sew it to the panel (off-center so it avoids the fold). 4. Write us a letter Please take the time to write a letter about the person you’ve remembered. The letter might include your relationship to him or her, how he or she would like to be remembered, and a favorite memory. If possible, please send us a photograph along with the letter for our archives. 5. Make a donation If you are able, please make a donation to help pay for the cost of adding your panel to The Quilt. The NAMES Project Foundation depends on the support of panel makers to preserve the Quilt and keep it on display. Gifts of any amount are welcome and greatly appreciated. 6. Fill out the panel maker information form This provides us with vital information about you and your panel. Click here to fill out the form. 7. Send Us the Panel Once your panel is completed there are several ways you can submit it to The NAMES Project so that it becomes a part of the AIDS Memorial Quilt. Submitting a Panel for The Quilt Once a panel is completed, there are several ways to submit it to The NAMES Project, so that it becomes a part of the AIDS Memorial Quilt.

  http://www.aidsquilt.org/make-a-panel/step-by-step-instructions

• Submitting a Panel for The Quilt Once a panel is completed, there are several ways to submit it to The NAMES Project, so that it becomes a part of the AIDS Memorial Quilt. You can send your panel to The NAMES Project Foundation or you can opt to bring the panel to a Quilt Display or to a local chapter. Send it to us directly at The NAMES Project Foundation ATTN: New Panels The NAMES Project Foundation 204 14TH ST NW ATLANTA, GA 30318-5304 404.688.5500 Be sure to send it by registered mail or with a carrier that will track your package. We recommend panels be shipped via Federal Express or UPS. Bring the panel to a Quilt display Please be sure to contact the local display host first for more information on how and when they are collecting new panels (many displays accept new panels only on the last day of the event, while others are prepared to accept new panels at any time during a display). Bring a new panel to one of our chapters Your panel will stay in the community for up to three months, being used for education and outreach, and then will be sent to the Foundation to be sewn into the Quilt. Important No matter how you decide to turn in a new panel, please be sure to print out the panel maker information form, fill it out and include it with the panel. This information helps us to stay in touch with you and keep you up to date on both the panel and The Quilt. How your panel becomes part of The Quilt When a new panel arrives at our national headquarters in Atlanta, it is carefully logged and examined for durability. Some panels might require hemming to adjust for size; others may need reinforcement or minor repairs. Next, new panels are sorted – some grouped geographically by region, others by theme or appearance. When eight similar panels are collected, they are sewn together to form a twelve-foot square. This is the basic building block of The Quilt, and it is usually referred to as either a “12-by-12″ or “Block.” Once sewn, each 12-by-12 is edged in canvas and given a unique number, its “Block Number,” which makes tracking the block possible. All panel, panel maker and numerical information is then stored in our Quilt databases. Once this happens, you are sent information including which block the panel you submitted has been made a part of, how to request the block for displays of The Quilt, and a current display schedule. The entire process, from our receiving the panel to incorporating it into a 12-by-12 in The AIDS Memorial Quilt, typically takes between 90 days and six months. Questions? “The only dumb question is the question you have but never ask!” Email us at panels@aidsquilt.org or call Roddy Williams, Panel Maker Relations, or Gert McMullin, Production Manager, at 404.688.5500.

• I don't know if anyone mentioned it on here, but there's a movie on Netflix streaming right now called "How To Survive a Plague". I heard about it on Anderson and watched it last night...it was pretty intense. Lots of great archival footage from the 80's and early 90's. Really shows how the gays banded together (without the internet, which I find impressive) and got shit DONE.

•  

• While the OP's question is a good one, I think it shows how clueless the young are that they can't find the answer to, what is, a simple history question. The answer to his question is common knowledge and all he had to do was make a little effort to do some research but, instead, asks on DL??? I weep for the future.

• They all died, OP, which is why there are no gay people now; the gene pool was drained.

• [quote]While the OP's question is a good one, I think it shows how clueless the young are that they can't find the answer to, what is, a simple history question. The answer to his question is common knowledge and all he had to do was make a little effort to do some research but, instead, asks on DL??? I weep for the future. And the 'oh so obvious' answer is...?

• Many of my favourite porn actors died of Aids so many young men its awful where did this come from.

• My big brother in my fraternity warned me about safe sex, and died himself of AIDS. I just searched for his name on the AIDS Quilt, and it was incredibly sad to remember that sense of loss. You don't know what it's like to walk into a bar knowing there's a greater chance of walking into a bar and meeting someone who will kill you, than someone who will love you. It has profoundly affected my ability to let go and love, to this day. I'm incredibly grateful to be negative, and have to admit that my own mediocre looks (overweight) might have saved me from unsafe sex when self-control might not have. I only lost a very few good friends (most of my close friends at the time were straight) but the fear was shattering and the emotional damage has never ended.

• TO know that OP, you'd have to know how many gay men there were. And nobody anywhere has ever had a scientific answer to that question, your question cannot be answered.

• I would have to say at least fifty percent of the gay men I knew eventually died of HIV - AIDS related diseases. I have no idea how I survived.

  Ma Joad