Do you find this statement to be true? Do you think there is something more to the "gay experience" (if such a thing exists) than just sex between two people of the same gender? Is there inherent qualities, traits and mentalities that link us all together?
I personally think that there is a unique experience and even culture that we have to ourselves that is separate from the straight world, as un-PC as that is to think these days. I think that there is definitely something more to being gay than just our sexuality. I can't put my finger on it but it's there.
I agree, OP. There is a brotherhood, lesbians call themselves sisters for the same reason.
For the same reason gay men are usually friends with each other instead of straight men even when there is no sex involved.
Sexual attraction makes us different than hets - not sex. Sex is a byproduct of attraction and/or love.
But the subculture that it fosters does make our experience much different than hets. If we were actually integrated fully into life without prejudice, then that wouldn't be the case.
Straight guys talk about girls all the time and go to bars to pick up girls and be each other's wingmen. Gays can't hang around that without feeling left out.
[quote]being gay is more than just sex[/quote]
No shit, sherlock.
?? you sound like a middle aged straight woman from Nebraska or something.....
"If we were actually integrated fully into life without prejudice, then that wouldn't be the case"
This is such a sad statement regarding our society. That is why I try never to judge and make blanket statements. I take each person as I meet them.
What is the point of prejudice?
[italic] Beyond the Sex: The Fabulous Life of Gays [/italic]
[quote] What is the point of prejudice?
It makes the inferior feel empowered.
Reading this site, it's also about hating EVERYTHING and EVERYONE. Being gay is about finding fault in everything. Being gay is about projecting your insecurities onto the world and judging it.
Being gay gives you the ability to see beauty where straight people may not, such as in a low hanging nut sack or an untended butthole. Also, being gay gives one the gift of being able to find the flaws of others and explain them to them in a way that's easy to understand and helpful to them to get their unrealized messed-up lives in order.
R2 A "brotherhood"!?! I wish. I'd say we were our own worst enemies, but (on a serious note) no minority can be their own worst enemy, still I've found other gay men to be judgmental, excluding and shockingly unfriendly.
I may be biased because I live in the country and the only way I've ever really had a chance to meet other gay men (except for my partner) is through social media. I'm talking about looking for friends-not sex-and I've found that if you're not urbanized, cynical, snarky and stereotypical you're shunned.
It sucks, but it's true.
It can be just sex, but it's usually more.
R10 read r9.
Paul Monette observed that the only thing that gay men had in common with straight men was sex.
Judging a person does not define who they are; it defines you.
R12, you're trying to meet men through Twitter?!?
[quote]R12, you're trying to meet men through Twitter?!?
Listing your penis size and all the kinds of men you don't like in just 140 characters is a challenge, but it can be done.
"Reading this site, it's also about hating EVERYTHING and EVERYONE."
That's not about being gay; that's about being anonymous on the internet.
[quote]If we were actually integrated fully into life without prejudice, then that wouldn't be the case.
I think he/she is on to something with this. It's why so many people find the idea of marriage threatening. It will allow us to grow up and truly be equal and it will force the dinosaurs to just whither and fade to a hard to imagine memory.
Before I was a sexually active gay man I was an emotionally-gay child. I knew I was attracted to men before I knew what sex was.
Gay culture was just the gift wrapping.
Being gay (just like being straight) is about sexual ATTRACTION. Nothing more, nothing less.
It just means that if you're male, you're sexually attracted to males and not females. It doesn't say anything about how often you have sex (or even IF you have sex)
This isn't that fucking complicated for heaven's sake. Go to the mall and watch people. Good looking boy and good looking girl walk by... Where do your eyes go? That's your sexual orientation. Whether the attraction leads to action is another matter.
I think "gay culture" stemmed from the clandestine nature of homosexuality before the Stonewall riot. Before that moment gays were confined to small underground bars in the shady part of town. Gay men had to make up their own codes and language that only they knew to evade the hostile outside world. From this secrecy a unique culture emerged that still lingers till this day. It's fascinating when you think about it.
R22, I can comprehend a life in which someone thinks in terms of "a mall," but I cannot comprehend a life in which someone thinks in terms of "THE mall."
No, r22. In a universe absent homophobia maybe it would shake down that simply. When ALL parents are free of the assumption that their children are heterosexual, we can start talking about the actualization of this world you describe.
There are so many gay experiences and thoughts to have. Even gays outside of the gay ghettos across the wold share this culture to some extent. r21 describes this nicely.
r24, you sound like a dumbfuck. One that's annoying as hell.
r25, you're talking about things that aren't even addressed by r22. I read that (r22) as just how the word is defined. Homosexual and heterosexual and bisexual are pretty clear in their definitions. r22 is correct that it describes sexual attraction. All those things you describe (r25) result FROM the attraction, of knowing you're a minority, etc.
[quote]Paul Monette observed that the only thing that gay men had in common with straight men was sex.
This is true. Straight men would not talk about 90% of what is posted here. They don't think as deeply about the things gay men are interested in except maybe politics. I think in general gay men and straight men would usually be incompatible because of their different interests and how they think. Gay men have their own distinct voice.
Dearest r27, I would say that being gay and the cultural aspects that come along with it are generally not separable in the way they are for straights. I think that r22 was insisting that there is not difference between the orientations.
r28 is what could be accurately termed a lying sack of shit. This site has become a full time agenda promoting that twisted view.
95% of gay males would NOT be interested in most of what is posted here. This has increasingly become the home of the gender-disordered.
[quote]Straight men would not talk about 90% of what is posted here.
Not to play into stereotypes, but bring them out that we may know them.
r29, there is NOT a difference between the orientations except for attraction. Of course attraction is a VERY big difference. The "culture" idea is very foul-smelling BS.
I would say that this site is politics, who we find attractive, who has had plastic surgery/aged, current events, humour and story telling, and the occasional sentimental topic. That's pretty universal, babe.
Of course there is a gay voice here, because gay people have a gay sensibility big or small few are exempt and cheers for that.
[quote]The "culture" idea is very foul-smelling BS.
r32, so you're denying that there is a gay culture? We have our own neighborhoods, music, marketing, shows, parades, bars, history and words. From a purely anthropological standpoint, those things alone would constitute having our own culture.
You seem like you're pushing an agenda by denying that.
Totally agree R34 - What is R32's problem?
To deny there is a gay culture is just ignorant. And wanting to push that they're soooo straight acting and normal.
Grow up, R32. No one is impressed.
The "gay culture" is the result of female brains mixed with male hormones.
This thread is about to be taken over by snooty gays and "straight acting" gays! Im out
Being gay is about finding fault in everything.
My best friend is this way. He finds fault in EVERYTHING. He will see something he loves in a store, buy it, take it home, then return it 2 days later because he finds "something" wrong with it. Never fails.
[quote]Being gay is about finding fault in everything.
Where do you think that comes from?
I disagree that merely being integrated would erase that different viewpoint because one would still be conscious of being a minority even if it was a large morally neutral minority. The reason is that we still can't just fall in love with anyone we meet the way hets can, we have to go through a whole extra and difficult process of establishing the orientation of the loved one. And that wouldn't change even if there were no prejudice at all.
R17 and R19 No and no. I'm not trying to meet men in that sense, I've been in a monogamous relationship for over a decade. I'd like to meat gay men to become friends through Twitter. Since, it's a site where people can get to know others based on common interests and it's NOT a sex/Grinrd typ site.
I'm sort of geographically isolated. I have my partner, lots of family, straight friends and I don't feel persecuted or discriminated against living in my home town, but I just have never been able to make friends with other gay men. They're the only group that seems to exclude me and I'm one of them!
I don't get it. I also don't get R19's comments either. I don't approach life or other people by listing off every quality in a person I don't like. I'd use my name-I'm no afraid to-and my Twitter account, but I believe some of the nastier gay men would use that info to mess with my mind. It's a sad commentary on my own community when I feel like that. But, you'd b surprised how many gay men have been friends with me on Twitter then abruptly dropped me because I no longer fit into their clique.
I reject the idea that there is "a" gay culture. There certainly may be a stereotypical list of activities or traits such as a love of show tunes and being fabulous but I think that most gays don't participate lock-step in gay culture any more than straights participate in "a" straight culture.
I love the Ohio Players, anyone else? I wish they would tour again.
Yes, it's more than just sex, but isn't the sex one of the best parts of it? I love the sex part of it, myself. All the penises and everything....
I hardly ever have sex but I'm gay. Lots of straight people never have sex. Being gay or straight is an orientation not a behavior.
It's all about grown men flaming and acting like 13-year-old girls!
r39 the constant fault finding is a habit we picked up from a lifetime of others finding fault with us, either directly or by our own assumption, but it can be overcome
r43 I loved them way back, but now I believe they've found god and until they embrace The Dirty they won't be able to play funk and touring will be disappointing
R46, that's a little offensive. I almost never act like a thirteen-year-old girl.
OMG! The DL ONE DIRECTION thread (#647) has the best gossip EVER!!!!!
Can you give me some examples of "our own music," R34? I've been waiting for the gay Bruce Springsteen, the gay fun., the gay Boy Groups (as distinguished from the Girl Groups and the Boy Bands), the gay male equivalent of Taylor Swift, even. But I don't know who these people are.
Popular music, unless my head is stuck way far deep in the sand, doesn't have too many gay boys singing about how broken-hearted they are over some other gay boy.
[quote] If we were actually integrated fully into life without prejudice, then that wouldn't be the case
I'm not so sure. I think there are commonalities beyond sexual attraction. Besides the fact that the sexual attraction in and of itself is a large part of what makes us human there are - not sure how to define it - collateral issues/factors that unite gay men beyond those imposed by a biased het world. We are different. Not lesser or better. Just different.
No gay is just sex. If you are into girls you're not gay. Gay is totally about sex.
Being gay is nothing more than feeling a same-sex attraction. For anyone claiming otherwise, name one thing that unites or defines all gay men other than same-sex attraction.
Their love of Streisand, R53.
r43 lead singer of Ohio Players just died, family has released no details on his death. not a very gay day for this lover of the band's music
OP, do you include the huge number of same-sex oriented people who are closeted, identify as straight, or eschew the gay community in your question? The very question of who is gay is controversial and disputed. Are bisexuals included?
If you are into the opposite sex you're not gay. Heterosexual is totally about sex.
Being gay is genetic. It's not just some "preference" like having taste buds that cause you to prefer vanilla ice cream over chocolate. It is a real physical/physiological - however you say it - reality. Whatever it is that controls this more than likely controls other facets of a human. I'm not very scientific because I'm not a scientist but for instance there are factors (for lack of a better word) that control left brain/right brain thinking, hormone levels, etc. Those things and any of their effects on behavior or the human body are shared by gay men and/or gay women.
[quote]Being gay is nothing more than feeling a same-sex attraction. For anyone claiming otherwise, name one thing that unites or defines all gay men other than same-sex attraction.
The other thing we have is the shared experience of being a minority that was made to feel judged and different by a society that is very hetero normative. That shouldn't be ignored.
I agree, R59, But that experience is shared by almost all minorities -at least ones that are judged and marginalized by their societies. Which is why being a minority should cause people to unite with other minorities, well, unless it's the 1% or the nazis.
No, OP, it's JUST sex. Being gay is nothing beyond the sex act.
You must be very young, OP.
Don't roll your eyes violently, you don't want them to get stuck like that.
One of the problems of the gay community is that it is entirely infiltrated by homophobes, either self-loathing gays, or actual homophobic spies who are out to get us. We see them right here in this thread, and datalounge has so many that statistics show more than a third of posters are straight and pretty much all of them are homophobes, even the majority who probably think they are not.
We have a culture without a Safe Space, and that affects more than just your sex life, that affects every single aspect of your life.
Any alleged straight man speaking homophobic on this sight is a closeted mess.
It's more. But not inherently more. It's more because there is a sense of community. Not everyone is involved in that community, not everyone is even exposed to that community, but a great many gay and lesbian people are. As with any community, certain frames of reference and mores develop. Not everyone in the community feels the same about everything. But that is true of any community.
R59- As was pointed out, feeling the struggles of being a minority is not unique enough to the gay experience.
And not even the "oppression" that comes with being a minority is all that unifying anyway. I can't recall when I've felt discriminated against or made to feel uncomfortable because of my homosexuality. What's so hard about being gay in New York. The only people that will make you feel "less than" here are other gays!
[quote]Can you give me some examples of "our own music"?
For a huge percentage of men who have sex or are attracted to men it is just about sex or sexual attraction. Most of them live mainstream lives wherein no one but them knows about their same-sex interests. That is still true today in most of the world.
Being gay is so much more than sex. I can't remember the last time I had any, but I'm still here, and still gay.
It's more about self-awareness and who you spend your time with.
What  wrote.
r71, that is for you. Don't confuse your personal experience as a universal experience.
In some respects it is definitely about more than sex.
Can you imagine a Beyonce vs Madonna war on a straight men's message board?
R71 just because you don't have sex you are still sexually attracted to men. It's the same thing as what the OP was talking about.
Who you spend your time with is very individual, there are plenty of gay men who rarely spend their time around any other gay men.
r74, but there are huge numbers of bisexual and gay men who are just as disinterested in Madonna and Beyonce as their straight brethren. It's just that the men who are interested in that type of thing really stick out and get a lot of attention because it is perceived as abnormal by the masses.
I hear you, R76, but that doesn't negate the fact there are so many that are.
I have a gay friend who always complains about being pigeon-holed as a gay. He says he is not into casual sex at all and just wants to find a love he can be with and live in peace. He quite often is being put off by other gays actually. I think people, gay or straight come in all kinds of versions and varieties. Just because you are of a certain sexual orientation does not mean you have the same interests, desires or proclivities than others of the same orientation.
[quote]It's more about self-awareness and who you spend your time with.
Nowhere in this does it say gay only. It says who they spend time with.
It is the same as the story about whether you are a drunkard or an alcoholic--if you are an alcoholic you have to go to meetings.
There are "gays", and there are homosexuals. I am a homosexual, a personality characteristic which I did not choose, and cannot change. But I shall never be a "gay". Being "gay" means living in a "gay" ghetto, and wearing "fabulous" clothes, and marching in "gay pride" parades looking like naked cartoon characters, cocksucking with strangers in restrooms, porn theatre booths, or gym showers. I just live a quiet dignified life and nobody even cares or talks about whether I am homosexual, heterosexual, or some degree of bisexual.
"Being gay is about finding fault in everything."
Gay people have a monopoly on this? Of the billions of straight people in the world, all of them are happy and content and never bitch about anything?
How do bisexuals fit in?
As an out gay male, it's definitely more than just sex. I believe visibility and openness without shame are the keys to winning straight people over. When they get to know an out gay person as a neighbor, co-worker or friend, they're more likely to support our civil rights and equality. I don't hide who I am, so I never think of my gay identity as something compartmentalized.
I also have a partner of 11 years. We share a home, finances, familial obligations and friendships. Sex is a small part of our lives, ultimately. We have a great sex life, but we spend much more time doing other things, together and seperately.
If you're closeted to any degree, you might make the argument that its just a sexual matter that's best kept private, like a fetish or a particular sex act you enjoy. I don't see it that way. Straight people openly celebrate and express their hetero nature, you'd never hear a straight male or female refuse to discuss their spouse, family or straight/coupled friends because that part of their life is "just about sex". Gay people who claim this are filled with shame that clouds their perceptions. If you accept that you're gay and that you're just as worthy of respect as a straight person, you live a happier, more genuine life.
How do you vote, R83?
"But I shall never be a "gay". Being "gay" means living in a "gay" ghetto, and wearing "fabulous" clothes, and marching in "gay pride" parades lookin."
And these are your self imposed, rigid definitions.
I'm gay, I don't live in a gay ghetto, I buy most of my clothes at Costco and I haven't been to a gay pride parade in 20 years and haven't set foot in a gay bar or club in about 15 years.
You are choosing to see only what you want to see about gay Life. In that respect, you're every bit as ignorant as some fire breathing fundamentlist.
Its just about sex for me. Most of what some people identify as being part of "gay culture" are things that hold little of interest to me.
Ditto for R86.
I would really like to know how all you non-gay homosexuals vote.
Please continue to share, including this added detail.
Thanks in advance.
Democratic Party, R84.
That, non-gay Sir, is a relief.
Aw fuck I messed it up.
I want *R80* and other *non-gay* homosexuals to include how they vote.
R83 I pegged you as a Democrat. I didn't mean to ask you.
I vote for the Libertarians, since what I want from the government is to just be let alone.
"Non-gay Sir"? I just wrote 3 paragraphs about being openly gay.
Thank you, non-gays, for your replies.
Im curious R95 why did you want to know that? It seems kind of an odd question, like asking what kind of peanut butter we like, creamy or chunky.
I used to vote for the most capable candidate, leaning towards Republican. In the last 15-20 years though, straight Democratic ticket for me.
....because the republicans have been rendered incapable by the hypocritical-Christian-interpreted kooks.
Libertarians confuse me. Who do you think will protect your liberties? With what?
Does it, R96? It's like peanut butter? OK.
Then just call me curious.
Have you answered?
R100 Its like peanut butter in the respect that one has, as far as I can tell, nothing to do with the other. Thats why I asked. I was wondering if you thought there was some connection between the two.
And yes, I did answer. You're welcome.
[quote]I vote for the Libertarians, since what I want from the government is to just be let alone.
In other words, I don't mind if a business doesn't want to serve me because I'm gay, or an employer chooses to fire me because I'm gay, or a hospital refuses to let me visit my gay partner. That's their right, and the government has no should not be forcing them to treat all citizens with dignity.
Could R80 or R86, or anybody please tell me (us) why you feel the way you do? I'm really curious why someone would think that gay people are expected to live, behave and dress in a certain way. Who told you this? Where is it written?
What really pisses me off about people like this is that is plays right into the hands of our enemies who insist there is a "gay agenda."
As a 60 year old eldergay who has been out since I was 20, one of the things I like most about being gay is that there are no rules to follow, no expectations to be met, to community standards to be rigidly adhered to. If I want to go out and change the oil on my car one minute, I can. If I feel like putting on my June Cleaver drag and baking a marvelous souffle the next minute, I can do that as well. And if I want to participate in a triathalon, I can go that. In other words, as a gay person, I don't feel obliged to act or behave in any particular manner.
I think what is comes down to, and people here will be pissed, is that R80 and R86 deep down are ashamed of being gay and are looking for a scapegoat, anything or anyone, to blame for their misery. And what easier target than the very nebulous concept of "the gay community."
[quote] I want from the government is to just be let alone.
I dont understand this. The goverment has left me alone pretty much from day one. They have never intruded on my life in any real substantial way. Nor do I know anyone who would say "the government wont leave me alone." I only deal with the government three times a year; when I pay my income tax, when I pay my property tax and when I have to renew my car registration. If I happen to travel overseas that year, then a fourth time when I have to go through customs/immigration. The first two dont even require me to leave my house. And with the exception of income tax, all the other encounters could be avoided by simply choosing not having a car, not buying a house and not traveling outside the US.
Even if my penis was removed from my body and I could never again have sex, I'd still be gay.
[quote] I'm really curious why someone would think that gay people are expected to live, behave and dress in a certain way. Who told you this? Where is it written?
Seeing how I never said anything even remotely like this, I cant help but ask you, who told you this? Where is it written?
[quote] R86 deep down are ashamed of being gay
Ding ding ding!!!! We got a winner in the "if you dont follow the preordained assumptions of what a gay man is, then it must be because you are ashamed" contest. For fuck sake old man, do you know how tired, how lame that reasoning is? Here's a news flash for you: different people have different tastes. It means absolutely nothing other than they have different tastes. End of story. That you start off criticizing me for (falsely) thinking gay men are expected to act a certain way, it is indeed curious that because I am not acting in a way you expect a gay man should act, that it has to do with being ashamed. You dont feel you need to act or behave in any particular manner? How nice. I feel the same way too. Yet when someone like me acts and behaves in a manner that suits them, your first reaction is to characterize them as self loathing and miserable.
There was absolutely nothing in my post where I put down the gay community, nothing where I put down gay people. That you saw something that wasn't there and then tried to use that to make yourself seem so much wiser and use it to judge and label someone you dont even know says a real lot about you.
I was at the library and saw a book called "How to be Gay" by David Halperin. I hesitated to get it because of the naked men on the cover. Don't know why I care what the local librarian thinks of me. But did anyone ever read this?
Here's the Amazon Book description: "A pioneer of LGBTQ studies dares to suggest that gayness is a way of being that gay men must learn from one another to become who they are. The genius of gay culture resides in some of its most despised stereotypes—aestheticism, snobbery, melodrama, glamour, caricatures of women, and obsession with mothers—and in the social meaning of style."
A little defensive, R101?
I think there could be, in many cases, a connection. I think you know that as well, and that's why you're protesting.
Let's let other people continue to answer, and see.
We already have 1 Republican and 1 Libertarian. And you, the 1 Democrat.
So far, my theory is holding up pretty well.
Not defensive R109, just generally curious. Thats why I asked. As I stated before, I dont see a connection and was wondering if there was one. Also, I cant help but notice when asked why you wanted to know, you played it off as you had no real reason, just you were curious. Now it appears you do have a reason, you do think there is a connection and you have some sort of theory. Kind of strange that you would lie about why you asked to share your reasoning. Being dishonest seldom gets people to cooperate with you.
Also, two people answered Dem, not one as you claim. Are you sure this mystery theory is holding up?
You might not have said that R86, but that is what R80 directly said.
And it is ridiculous. Being "gay" simply means that you are attracted to the same sex. The idea that would be terrified to identify as gay because you think people are going to group you with some stereotypes or community is some deep seated loathing about being gay.
There is no I like men but I am not gay (well unless you are bisexual), being gay is just a word with a simple definition.
R110 get over yourself.
I have not reason to lie to someone like you.
My theory is sound, which is why it bothers you so much...similar to the idea of being gay.
R112 What theory? You have not shared this theory with anyone. Your theory doesnt bother me because I dont know what the fuck it is. And considering you have fouled up the evidence to back up your theory, to then claim it is sound is, well, strange.
And you did lie. You were asked why you wanted to know and told us there was no reason, you were just curious. You did have a reason, ergo, you lied when you said there was no reason other than your curiosity. See how it works?
Oh, and no where in my posts did I say being gay bothered me. Either that's another lie, or you dont know how to read.
[quote]I believe visibility and openness without shame are the keys to winning straight people over.
Words to live by for every gay person alive.
WE ALL LOVE BABS AND BETTE AND CHER AND LIZA AND JUDY AND ABBA AND DIANA AND DONNA AND ARETHA AND WHITNEY AND MADONNA AND GAGA AND LAUPER AND...
Tired of the Stereotypes
The gay community can't win over straight people. The community needs to learn to become self sufficient.