Anyone with half a brain can see that USA has embraced fascism. Our government is fascist by any legitimate definition.
The word fascism is rooted in the Latin word fasces, a Roman object made of wooden rods tightly bound by red, overlapping straps. At the top, or occasionally in the middle, of the fasces was an axe head. The bound wooden rods represented strength through unity and the axe represented the means by which authority was exerted by the unified entity. In addition to being used as a weapon by Roman authorities, the fasces was a key symbol on government buildings of the Roman empire. The symbolism of the fasces is significant. The wooden rod represents the weak individual whose sole contribution is to provide strength to the unified object, in this case the State. The axe head, unsurprisingly, represents the force with which the State will ensure its survival.
Fascism is referred to as an ideology with numerous characteristics, the most common being fervent nationalism, virtually unlimited central authority, militarism, and state control of production. While those traits are almost universally present in fascist run societies, we take the position that fascism in, in fact, not an ideology at all. Merriam-Webster defines ideology as the “visionary theorizing of a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture.”
We contend that the objective of fascism is to ensure the survival and further the influence of the State. As Benito Mussolini famously stated, “Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State.” Fascism holds self-preservation of the State as the supreme objective, regardless of method. It is therefore difficult to envision fascism as an ideology any more than a pride of lions being governed by an ideology. Fascism is an observed organizational structure in which the State exerts unlimited and arbitrary power over all its subjects merely for its own survival.
THE CORE CHARACTERISTICS OF FASCISM
While we contend that fascism is without principles, that is not to say that it does not have core characteristics. Rather than representing a platform of principles from which to rule, however, these characteristics represents processes and tools that empower the State apparatus. As times and conditions change, a fascist State will shift message, priorities and effort, all for the purpose of self-preservation. At times the State will appear pro-market, other times it will claim national exigencies demand that it assume control of production in the economy. Commonly observed traits, however, include:
Nominal or no limit on the power of the State. Whether explicit or de facto, when the State ceases to recognize limits on its authority, it is displaying a core characteristic of fascism. This is often seen in the broad powers that are granted to the law enforcement, military and the intelligence apparatus. As a related aside, a common observation in fascist regimes is that law enforcement and military cease to be viewed as members of the community in which they serve. Their encroaching and increasingly heavy handed tactics become the source of discontent among the people which in turn results in increasingly hysterical propaganda from the State.
Significant spending on national defense. Regardless of the financial conditions of the State and its subjects, military spending is virtually unaffected by financial stress occurring in other segments of the economy. The State recognizes that political power is meaningless without the force to back it. Money goes to salaries, weapons, research and various military adventures. In Germany and Italy in the 1930s, significant production and economic benefit was bestowed upon the military and the military industry. This is still the case in some countries today.
Key segments of the economy are granted cartel status by the State. Industries including agriculture, health care, banking, energy and manufacturing find themselves submitting to the State’s plan for production or being run out of business. In a fascist regime, the State typically does not actually seek to run the enterprise, they merely dictate the conditions and stipulations under which producers must operate.
A final note on fascism. It is commonly held that fascism is a right-wing form of government. We hold that the differentiation between left and right in this context is completely meaningless. North Korea and the former Soviet Union certainly can be characterized as fascist. The key characteristic is a high degree of force and deceit that the State deploys in self preservation.
This brief article is far from an exhaustive study on the matter of fascism. Lew Rockwell of the Mises Institute and Richard Maybury, author of the Uncle Eric series of books have dedicated many years of academic research to this topic. Much of what we have captured in this short primer is a result of their pioneering work. For those interested in further study of fascism, its history and how it manifests today, we encourage you to seek the works by these two remarkable men. See "The Fascist Threat" by Lew Rockwell and the Uncle Eric books here.
Here at TDV fascism is frequently referred to as the increasingly prevalent form of government in the West. We recognize that this conjures strong emotions and we often get a few angry emails voicing displeasure with our characterization of their homeland. We understand that the word fascism is an emotionally charged word and we do not use it lightly.
We recognize, however, that we have never taken the time to define it completely nor place it within the context of our communications (although Jeff did compare the USA to the dictionary definition of "fascism" in "The Fasco-Communist Police State of America"). As such, we have fallen victim to one of our own cardinal sins; letting somebody else control the thoughts by controlling the definition of the words used to define those thoughts. To make matters worse, by default, we have relegated the responsibility of defining those words to two of the most criminally complicit estates in our society, namely the educational system and mass media. It is time to address this oversight.
[quote]Anyone with half a brain can see that USA has embraced fascism. Our government is fascist by any legitimate definition.
Anyone with half a brain can see that the USA has not embraced fascism. Our government is not fascist by any legitimate definition of that word. Gosh, isn't argument by assertion fun? I could just as easily replace "fascism" with "pink bunnies" in that diatribe of yours and it would be just as accurate and make just as much sense.
Note, by the way, that the original author of that drivel was very careful to a) not cite an actual definition of "fascism," and b) very careful to not actually tie any current U.S. actions or legislation to any historical fascist examples.
OP is the libertarian troll and author of the idiotic "Gun Control" creative writing 101 posts.
OP is a fruitcake.
"Anyone with half a brain can see that USA has embraced fascism."
That indeed sounds like a good description of you, OP.
No, OP, we escaped fascism when the tea party lost.
Now, those were real fascists.
LOL @ r3
I love it when social critics try to redefine socio-political terminology to fit their agendas.
Lew Rockwell is a crackpot.
We didn't "embrace" fascism, it was imposed on us by a military and Wall Street conspiracy, aided and abetted by so-called "libertarians." Get your facts straight OP.
OP claims to be opposed to fascism, yet we saw in a previous thread a few weeks ago that he is a proponent of eugenics. Now, individuals of which political philosophy put eugenics into practice in the past?
Thanks for a good laugh, OP.
OP, the real root of the word fascism is the Latin word "fax" which means "torch". The torch used to be the symbol of imperial Rome, so when the followers of Mussolini took Italy over they also used the torch symbol as harkening back to that mythic powerful time, thus they became "fascisti" from the Latin word "fax"
You just know OP forwards a million emails a day to everyone in his contacts list.
They probably all have his messages rerouted to Spam.
America is Facist, and its citizens are for it without even realizing. OP is spot on. I've known this for a very long time. The US fits the entire profile. Why do you think the country is so anti-communist? Corporations run the frigging show. The electorate has very little power. I'm not a Libertarian, or Republican, btw. I'm a Liberal, and a Democrat.
And an uninformed imbecile.
[quote]America is Facist
face time comes as importances among the Americans
R4, I just reread this post replacing "fascism" w/ "pink bunnies" and it was a hell of a lot more fun to read, I'll tell you that.
Fascism is coming and both parties of US imperialism will bring it about!
Fascism (or nationalism) is right, Communism (or communitarianism) is left. What this author describes is totalitarianism, which means total control by the central authority and can be reached by extremes of either. The opposite of totalitarianism is anarchy and not in the sense of chaos, but in the sense of no central authority.
Fascism is when you "solve" the problem of 43 million uninsured citizens by telling them that they have to buy health insurance out-of-pocket from a privately-owned, for-profit company or else pay the federal government a fine.
I think we all need to go back to high school and remind ourselves what fascism actually is.
Fascism - Philosophy of government that stresses the primacy and glory of the state, unquestioning obedience to its leader, subordination of the individual will to the state's authority, and harsh suppression of dissent. Martial virtues are celebrated, while liberal and democratic values are disparaged.
1921, from Italian partito nazionale fascista, the anti-communist political movement organized 1919 under Benito Mussolini (1883-1945); from Italian fascio "group, association," lit. "bundle" (see fasces).
With fascism, originally used in English in its Italian form, as an Italian word. [Fowler: "Whether this full anglicization of the words is worth while cannot be decided till we know whether the things are to be temporary or permanent in England" -- probably an addition to the 1930 reprint, retained in 1944 U.S. edition.] Fasci "groups of men organized for political purposes" had been a feature of Sicily since c.1895, and the 20c. totalitatrian sense probably came directly from this, but influenced by the Roman fasces, which became the party symbol. Related: Fascistic.
1590s, from Latin fasces "bundle of rods containing an axe with the blade projecting" (plural of fascis "bundle" of wood, etc.), perhaps from PIE *bhasko- "band, bundle" (cf. Middle Irish basc "neckband," Welsh baich "load, burden," Old English bæst "inner bark of the linden tree"). Carried before a lictor, a superior Roman magistrate, as a symbol of power over life and limb: the sticks symbolized punishment by whipping, the axe head execution by beheading
R14 is a retard.
Please google "Lew Rockwell" and fascism and your absolutely correct understanding of fascism will make sense.
Corporations get their power from the government. The banks get their charter from the government.
Please be warned- once you understand it, and see "through the matrix" it will make you angry, and upset, and you will hate every politician in DC and soon find yourself in love with Ron Paul.
You will understand why the drug war, the bank bailouts, the invasions of Iraq/Afghanistan /Syria/Iran, the destruction of civil liberties, the drone murders of innocent people, the hatred of the Federal Reserve, the corruption of the government at every level, the way the cops have become thugs with badges, the subsidies of big corporations, etc., are all just a single manifestation of government corruption.
"Fascism (or nationalism) is right, Communism (or communitarianism) is left. What this author describes is totalitarianism, which means total control by the central authority and can be reached by extremes of either."
Define "left" and "right".
Until you can define those terms, you are just spouting bullshit.
"The opposite of totalitarianism is anarchy and not in the sense of chaos, but in the sense of no central authority"
Uhhhh, exactly. Anarchy, a term The Elite have slandered for 2 centuries, is a far better way of "organizing" society than democracy.
"Fascism is when you "solve" the problem of 43 million uninsured citizens by telling them that they have to buy health insurance out-of-pocket from a privately-owned, for-profit company or else pay the federal government a fine."
The morons that deny that the USA is fascist will not face this simple fact.
"Fascism - Philosophy of government that stresses the primacy and glory of the state, unquestioning obedience to its leader, subordination of the individual will to the state's authority, and harsh suppression of dissent. Martial virtues are celebrated, while liberal and democratic values are disparaged."
So, MW has defined fascism properly. Anyone who doesn't see that this describes the USA to a T is delusional.
r29 with your threads on gun control, Schwarz and fascism, it's clear you're mentally ill. Paranoid delusional.
We have also seen the rise of corporatocracy in the last 50 years to the extent that I would consider the U.S. to be closer to that particular ideology than it is to representative democracy.
Not that most of the denizens of Datalounge would give a fuck...they're some of the most consumptive, zombie like corporate citizens around.
R31 you need a history lesson. This isn't the last 50 years. It has been this way for much of American history, if not all of it.
Representative democracy is the great American myth - despite surges in the participatory elements of democracy achieved by women's suffrage and the civil rights era, the poli-sci notion of representative democracy has always been questionable in the US as redistricting, voter suppression and -- worst of all, federalism -- distort it.
And corporate money has been running the show forever. Banks, railroad magnates, oil barrons, plantation owners have all dominated at one point or another -- they've just spawned millions of corporations of varied degrees of power in the post World War II era.
Progress has only been achieved in the US with generational shifts tipping the majority toward progress just enough to give strong leaders the clout to drag America forward. The electorate barely tunes in to elections, turnout is low, and political accountability has always been a joke.
Why do you think Mr. Smith Goes to Washington was made when it was, and even serious thinkers and satirists thought it was too idealistic and mythical to ever represent anything real?
The role of cousin Oliver clearly destroyed the brilliant career of Robbie Rist.
[quote]Please be warned- once you understand it, and see "through the matrix" it will make you angry, and upset, and you will hate every politician in DC and soon find yourself in love with Ron Paul.
It took till R26 to get to Ron Paul?
You dipshits are slipping.
He's the only modern politician who sees the destruction of civil liberties, sacrificed for the aggrandizement of Wall St and DC.
The people who cannot see that Bush, and Obama, are just neo-fascists draped in patriotic colors are blind.
The conspiracy nuts who pretend that Bush and Obama are just alike and that they are "neo-fascists draped in patriotic colors" [a redundance if ever there was] are morons.
The fundamentalists and gun nuts sure sound like fascists. The corporate rulers and their govt puppets are just nihilistic globalism profiteers.
This discussion could be had in many places on the Internet. I like DL because we get to gossip about celebs and actors and such. Not that there isn't a time to discuss politics. But DL is an alternative to that.
Here on DL, I'd rather read Hollywood gossip.
"He's the only modern politician who sees the destruction of civil liberties, sacrificed for the aggrandizement of Wall St and DC."
Ron Paul is a race-baiting old fart with a redneck accent who wears a suit two sizes too big and interprets civil liberties very selectively -- he tends to like the ones that benefit white pro-life men best. He's also the father of poultry-faced Pee Tardy nuckfugget Rand Paul. Thrilled that this howdy-doody who looks like he has bad breath will never get near the presidency.
Why click on the thread!,
This is the first intelligent thread I've seen in a while. Right on target OP. Thank you.
Six million dead Jews are reading this idiotic thread and spinning in their graves.
Sorry OP these idiots don't get it. Nice try though. Maybe one day one of their puny brains will fire a synapse and remember what you were trying to say.
R43 and R45-
Thanks. The people that can't see the fact that our country is now fully fascist, and that socialism, fascism and communism are just different names for government control of the society makes me sad. I'm glad at least some gay men and women area finally recognizing that libertarians are the only ones who understand why our country is dying.
R43, I'm not here for intelligence. I am here for entertainment and GOSSIP. Please. If I want meaningful political discussion, I'll go elsewhere.
I propose we use this thread to talk about soap operas. That way it will swiftly be deleted.
R46 is a moron. Libertarians are at the forefront of the anti-gay movement in this country. Libertarianism is, by its very nature, anti-gay, anti-women, and anti-minority. A gay libertarian is a person who acts against his own self interests - also known as a tool or a pawn. Wake up.
[quote]Thanks. The people that can't see the fact that our country is now fully fascist, and that socialism, fascism and communism are just different names for government control of the society makes me sad.
ROFL.... And this is why we love you, OP - the total disconnection from reality, the redefinition of standard terms, demonstrating that you don't have the foggiest idea what they actually mean, the total ignorance of history, and the fact that you're "sad" that nobody shares your delusions.
Honestly, the freeper OP sounds a lot more like a fascist than the people he accuses of fascism.
He's not a Freeper; he's a libertarian/anarchist/Ron Paul disciple/gold nut/conspiracy nut/anti-Fed nut.
Virtually every libertarian I ever met was anti-gay. And they are FOR a huge military intended to make the rest of the world slaves to US corporations.
libertarian = celibate
R52, exactly my thoughts
My guess is that anyone who has lived under a Fascist regime (as I have) can tell the difference between it and our government. It's only as such regimes have died out that folks like OP have been able to come up with this Fascism=Socialism nonsense.
Really R57? What fascist regime did you live under?
[quote]I'm not here for intelligence
Yes, we've noticed.
[quote] Anyone with half a brain can see that USA has embraced fascism. Our government is fascist by any legitimate definition.
1. Pick pejorative term.
2. Assemble "research" based on word etymology and cherry-picked emotionally driven misreadings and misstatements.
3. Claim equality of America with the HIDEOUS CONCEPT.
4. Badger and badger and badger.
Another ignorant crank who tries to babble her way into exhausting her enforced audience into submissive silence.
Listen, cunt, the whack-job Rockwell is a Ron Paul-licking nouveau-Know-Nothing "libertarian" (insulting the concept), and you're a tool's tool of a lunatic. Nothing good has ever come from your tired tactics, and plenty of damage has.
Libertarians love gay people.
The fascists that want to keep people ignorant are sad.
Fascism=socialism, and communism=fascism. People too stupid to see this are sad products of gubmint edumakashun.
[quote]Fascism=socialism, and communism=fascism. People too stupid to see this are sad products of gubmint edumakashun.
ROFL.... Dear heart, mindlessly repeating a *really* stupid statement does not make it any less stupid. All you're demonstrating is that you're an ignorant nutcase.
Spain, Portugal, and Greece.
That good enough for you, R58?
The proof that OP is wrong is that no one is stopping him from posting his insane rants. If this country were truly fascist, he wouldn't be able to.
There is no proof that he is completely crazy, however. That's just an educated guess.
Corpocracy ...yes....Fascism, no.
R66 But aren't fascism and corporatocracy the same thing? I think that's OPs point.
He is posting on DL a lot right now, constantly clearing cookies as he goes. I am guessing he is the OP of the "King Obama" thread among many others.
I guess that I am as worried as anyone about the influence that large corporations (especially large banks) exercise on government today. But the point is that they can exercise that influence perfectly easily within the structures of democracy, by manipulating its institutions, its politicians, and the electorate.
In fascist states, the State controlled corporations and used them for its own purposes. That is, in practice, a very large difference.
It's Neo-Corpocracy... Derived in part from Corporatism, but is in no way related to Fascism.
You know R26, I have no problem hating the DC politicians AND Ron Paul at the same time!
No problem whatsoever.
Fascism and neo corporatcy are the same. That's why Ron Paul libertarians scare them.
Hardly R72. Dimwitted pretend libertarians run most American corporations and pretty much all of Wall Street, which is why New York will never be financial capital of the world: its elites are too stupid.
Ron Paul is not a god, doofus. And NO ONE is scared of him!
Obviously OP has half a brain.
OP,fascism comes from the Latin word, "FAX" which means literally "torch"
Fascists for whatever reasons took that as their symbol.
The Tea Party is a Fascist party.
"Muscle" also has the same latin root
If we lived in a Fascist society, would you know it?
Do you think the average Aryan German in 1936 or 1940 thought that Fascism was bad? Or would they have thought that Fascism was a good thing for Germany?:
It put an end to street brawls, and labor unrest.
It put an end to Czech and Polish oppression of fellow Germans.
It put an end to the humiliation of Versallies, and made Germans proud of themselves again.
It put an end to unemployment and hyperinflation
It put those uppity minorities in their place.
It kept them safe!
I wonder what they believed, and how that differs from the beliefs of Whites in America today.
Why single out "Whites"?
We all live under the same fascist state.
Not true R83. Labor unrest, yes. Street brawls, NO. It did not put an end to hyperinflation, that was gone 9 years before Nazism arrived.
We are not fascist by any meaning of the word, much to my dispair because i consider myself to be fascist. Facism would be the savioir of our country from the corporate rule and rule by the black mob.
Fascist means government plus corporations equals rule over society.
You are genuinely stupid.
I "dispair" for you.
[quote] R83: I wonder what they believed, and how that differs from the beliefs of Whites in America today.
[quote] R84: Why single out "Whites"?
I singled out Whites to compare with Aryan Germans because both have a privileged position in our respective societies, and are not generally the target of organized discrimination by Government.
Blacks have a different experience. Disrespect of Blacks is routine. "Stop & Frisk" by the blue shirts reminds me of the Nazi brown shirts and the demand "Paper's please". "Driving while Black" isn't something Whites experience. And it seems anybody can shoot any Blacks they choose, including in the back, or after in custody, as long as the perp isn't black themselves.
As a result, I think black people are already living in a fascist society. I don't know how they can tolerate it, frankly. That being clear, the only question is when the blue shirts start treating the remaining privileged Whites with the hostility and violence they currently direct at Blacks. As Martin Niemuller wrote: "...by the time they came for me, there was no one left to protest".
I agree with everything you say. Blacks have seen (or refused to see) the front lines of the jackboot fascistic Amerika for decades via the drug war.
Are you a Ron Paul supporter too?
It is not Fascism if the Victim Cultures implement it.
[quote] R89: Are you a Ron Paul supporter too?
No, I'm a guy who describes Libertarianism as Fascism, American style. I'm a Liberal Democrat.
Do you own your body?
How can you be anything BUT a Ron Paul guy?
You named the same sins he names, decried the same power structures he decries, and recognized the same crimes he exposes time and again, but you find no common ground?
R92, I don't believe that people should be owned like property.
And you're being repetitious and boring again. Do the world a favor and drop this idiocy from your vocabulary.
Ron Paul is a crazy old man. If we share any common ground, and I am not taking your word on it, but if we did, it would be a coincidence.
Don't be so closed minded.
Thank you, R96. That is at least something new from you.
Was I responding to your shit?
For all those struggling to understand...
Fascism = right wing economics + authoritarianism
Socialism = left wing economics + authoritarianism
Left and right are best understood in terms of economic policy.
Authoritarianism and libertarianism are best understood in terms of social policy (equalities, civil liberties).
Once you understand that you are looking at two axes, it's easy to see how different politicians/theorists fit in. For example:
Hitler: authoritarian right
Stalin: authoritarian left
Gandhi: libertarian left
Ron Paul: libertarian right
R99, the problem with your otherwise correct analysis is the fact that a proper understanding of economics always leads to libertarianism.
I was a democrat, mostly due to social issues, until I started learning about economics and how government distorts the market. Not just commerce, but personal interactions, distortions of consumption, planning for the future- the list is endless.
Ha! Libertarianism is a con.
Well, that's more of a "right vs wrong" than a "right vs left" argument, isn't it?
I was really responding to the strange person (people?) earlier in the thread who believe(s) any authoritarian regime is the same and therefore fascism = communism.
I'm just saying that if you see things as a two axis graph or a Venn diagram rather than a single line continuum, it makes better sense.
People from the libertarian left and the libertarian right can find common cause on civil liberties, for example. But people on the authoritarian right and libertarian right cannot.
If I weren't gay, I'd probably be a fascist. Being gay has made me somewhat human and has tempered my manner of thinking.
The main obstacle between cooperation between the left libertarians like Chomsky and Cockburn and economic libertarians like Raimondo and Rockwell is a lack of intellectual consistency and economic comprehension on the left.
Like libertarians, they are against war, but they can provide no concrete rationale for why it is wrong. They hate the banks and megacorporations, but can't see the policies of the Federal Reserve as the primary enabler. They know Washington DC is corrupt to the core, and that both parties are beholden to Wall Street and the Military/Industrial Complex, but still think a little more government intervention will fix it. Maybe another decade of Democrats waging war and propping up the banks during Hillary's reign will disabuse them of those illusions.
Until one can affirmatively answer the question of who owns their body with a resounding "I DO!" then they do not understand economics, or politics, or history, or biology, or psychology...
You're a NeoCon.
Hi Libtard troll.
Glad you're back. There's a huge shout out to you in the thread below.