Andy Warhol seems like rather a sweetie in his Diaries.
He seems kind and considerate for the most part, with some bitchy fun comments thrown in. But caring, a churchgoer, a Democrat, a hard worker and not showy when it comes to his own wealth. Why do people fault him for not saving the coterie of druggers who clung to him?
The part that touched me the most was his dealings with Mattie, the homeless guy who followed him around NY. Andy would get so frustrated with him, but you could tell he really felt sad about it.
I loved reading the diaries back in the 1990s. It's a book I want to reread again soon as I think they will be even more fascinating to me now, now that I'm older.
It's hard to believe Andy died decades ago when his ideas were so modern and applicable to the 21st century.
I just remember him saying about Madonna, Gee, she's so pretty! Or something like that.
I read the diaries when they were published. There was no index, so Spy magazine created and published one. Their index was very thorough and it had a DL sensibility, like "Smith, Rex, penis of."
r5, how well I remember the entry for:
Minnelli, Liza. "Give me every drug you've got"... 214.
He was devoted to his mother in a Norman Batesish way....
Over the years, I thought we'd be hearing more about these here on DL. It is one surprise of this group that Andy and all that rarely gets a mention.
I thought Edie Sedgwick would be a DL icon, not that Beyonce person.
"I thought Edie Sedgwick would be a DL icon, not that Beyonce person."
That's because younger gays are rather pedestrian in their interests now.
Cabbed to the Palladium for Debbie Harry’s party ($6) for her song that Jellybean produced, “Feel the Spin.” When Debbie arrived, she saw us in the balcony and came up there because she thought it was the place to (laughs) be, and then it was the place to be because all the photographers came after her. She looks great. Debbie actually was the first Madonna.
Are these published in a book or were they published in a periodical? Would like to read them.
I have a lot of opinions about Andy Warhol- first and foremost that he was an extraordinary artist, even if I don't like much of his work. But he sure took art to its logical conclusion, and celebrity, and a few other things. He was probably a genius.
Although not a very likeable one. He was as calculated as a person can get- no surprise there because most hypersuccessful people are. I just did not like his very self conscious pose of laissez faire- I have no opinion- I have no responsibility, I have no opinion etc. Fact is he was manipulating everything around him as carefully as the biggest control freak you have ever know, ever did. Now it worked well for him and his art and his personna created to further his art, but it did not work too well for anyone around him. He was a bit like being around a drug pusher. He enabled all manner of self destructive behavior and to my mind lived in denial of his own fears- big time- as if his survival among the mayhem around him justified his existance. And yes he was shitfaced at Studio almost all the time. Yes I got to meet him and know him a bit- one of my X's knew him quite well and appears in his diary (and has a small fortune of Warhole silk screens- all gifts). I do not know, but I think one of his biggest fears was of sex and intimacy. That was the overwhelming impression I had of him. I suspect he was a frightened little Catholic boy at heart going to church all the time to atone for his decadent life and even homosexuality. (He also was a compulsive shopper.) Of course, fear is ultimately what killed him. He was so afraid of hospitals that he walled himself away from normal hospital care (in one of NYC's best hospitals) and died needlessly because he insisted on a private duty nurse (who did not know normal hospital procedure) rather than competent staff. Fear is powerful- I work all the time to overcome it- to identify it and what it does to one. I think he stuffed it. My X loved him, and of course other friends of mine were star struck... I was creeped out by him. Who knows, maybe if I really knew him I would have liked him a lot. Then again he also encouraged very self destructive behavior in that X of mine, so maybe that's where my predjudice started.
All that said- he was genius and perhaps shaped the New York art world, and entertainment world for that matter, more than any individual of his time.
He was a nasty piece of work. Only cared for shoulder rubbing with clebs, and couldn't give a damn about humanity in general.
In simple terms, exactly how were the silk screens made? Did Andy just paint or draw the original (e.g. Judy or Jackie), and then
others at the Factory more or less replicated them in various color combinations?
[quote]I have a lot of opinions about Andy Warhol-
Get a blog, hon.
I don't fault him for anything, he does seem like he was a nice person. Too bad that crazy bitch shot him, it blighted his life afterwards.
We were not remotely friends- aquaintances although he was a friend of my X and my still best friend was an Interman (I think that's what they called them in his magazine.)
Blog? Gossip, I thought I was gossiping- you know, Datalounge. I thought that is what the OP asked for. In this case, even though it makes some of you nuts, I did know him and I did spend time around him, and as per above two people still very much alive and close to knew him quite well. So you have my opinion.
I guess I should say nothing or get off DL altogether. OK with me. When from time to time I hear first hand information, I like it. Then again I suppose some of you think I make this stuff up. I think its fun to talk about this stuff.
(He died of acute cholecystitis that turned into sepsis, while hospitalized. His private duty did not respond to his clinical decline as he went septic. I gather the cholecystitis may have had something to do with the previous gun shot wound.)
The gunshot wounds affected his health for the remainder of his life.
Life in this society being, at best, being an utter bore ...
[quote]I guess I should say nothing or get off DL altogether.
Gee, Charlie, I'm just grateful when someone here doesn't shriek and spit, and can handle words over two syllables.
Blog away, dearest, and ignore the bad reviews and ignorant, no-life bitches. Flyspecks on your windshield.
Charlie, remember the rabid make the most noise, many of us appreciate your input.
What R23 and R24 said.
Oh God, lay off Charlie. I don't understand you queens. He just gave interesting information about Andy Warhol and if he had not signed his name, you wouldn't be going on the way you do. If Charlie name drops, who cares? It's supposed to be a gossip site.
Charlie, was your X an artist?
I was so surprised by how impressed and moved I was by the recent Met Warhol exhibit. I am young enough to have not seen Warhol's work in person yet and I thought it was so effective and so good. I guess I was surprised as I had always understood him to be famous for manipulating fame. But his actual artwork is excellent.
New York was never the same after Andy died. If Andy could come back to New York today, he wouldn't even recognize it.
Thank you for your thoughts, Charlie. I, for one, appreciate hearing them.
Andy was a genius. I've read and watched everything I could find about him and the world he inhabited/created. He is probably the most fascinating and important American artist of his time. I have always thought that what he was doing was holding up a mirror to America and saying, "This is what you are."
He was more than just a painter. He made his life his art.
As much as he was fascinated by celebrity and high society he was also satirizing those people and that world. They were more fodder for his art He was much more subtle and clever about how he did it than, say, Truman Capote.
In many ways Andy created the type of celebrity culture we have now. Reality TV is a totally Warholian concept.
When Andy died, New York, and America, became much less interesting.
Charlie, ignore the haters, some people are jealous - me too, but I'm not an ass.
[quote] I was so surprised by how impressed and moved I was by the recent Met Warhol exhibit.
I was incredibly moved by the gold Marilyn Icon painting at MOMA. It almost made me cry for some reason.
As cold and removed as his work appears on the surface, there is a huge amount of emotion there.
R26, are you new around here???
charlie has a history of lying here. Or should I be kind and say he embellishes almost everything he writes about. Like he knows and has met most all the celebrities in NYC, like it's a small town. This is ONE of the reasons why we rag on him and his BS.
I will say this is one on the few threads where is does not drop Barbra Streisand's name.
They should have renamed New York City as Warhol City - because that's what it was.
NYC in the Warhol era was a small town. The great and the good and the glamorous hung out at a limited number of hangouts. I enjoy Charlie's posts and by and large find them credible.
Apparently, the last thing Warhol ever saw recovering from his final surgery was Andrea Evans on "One Life to Live", from his hospital room tv. Isn't that poetic? His fame was book-ended with Marilyn Monroe and Tina Lord.
"NYC in the Warhol era was a small town."
LOL. Read that in a book or something? No, it wasn't. I know because I was there.
My mother was an artist in SoHo before they called it SoHo (as she likes to say.) Warhol wasn't respected in the art scene at all back then. Edie was considered a tragic joke. She really didn't matter at all until that book by Jean Stein came out.
The movie Basquiat(?),is a pretty accurate portrayal. I have been fascinated with Warhol since high school(the late seventies). Julian Schnabel the N.Y. Artist directed the film,and he was there in the middle of it(he is portrayed in his own film by Gary Oldman). David Bowie plays Andy,and they both new him. It is sad that many people close to the situation feel that JMB&AW were the closest thing to a true friend either of them ever had. Even though Andy seemed to enjoy mischievously stirring the pot I think a lot of the surviving superstars and peripheral hangers-on have created a narrative(that's been told to death!),of Andy Warhol being far more malevolent than was actually the case. Almost everything iv'e read or seen about his life has the common denominator of vaguely(or overtly!) bitter,lazy,drug-addicted,mean-spirited losers,whose only(usually)claim to fame was having been associated with him in the first place! I think he saw quite clearly the people,places,and things around him,for exactly what they were. I also think a lot of people believed something "better" would be the outcome of an association with him.
[quote]My mother was an artist in SoHo before they called it SoHo (as she likes to say.) Warhol wasn't respected in the art scene at all back then
And who is your mother?
The art establishment in the 50s and 60s was pretty hetero, macho, and homophobic. They didn't get faggy little Andy Warhol or understand what he was up to. All they saw was this strange fey creature and his gang of perverts and drug addicts doing weird things and making art they didn't understand.
Read The Warhol Diaries,they are brilliant and hilarious!
Andy Warhol would've been 85 years old this year. I can't even imagine.
Many of those people who now paint Warhol as a devil are probably resentful that Andy wasn't willing to support them, make them famous, or give them money.
He was tight with his money and didn't hand it out easily. He was probably sick of his desperate hangers-on constantly having their hands out.
My mother never made a name for herself, because while she's not without talent, she doesn't have TALENT. And, she and her friends were anything but homophobic since the majority of them were gay anyway. They were just old school.
And he gave a lot of those hangers-on some underground notoriety, it was up to them to figure out how to capitalize on it.
What's talent, really? getting away with something. War hole had the energy and drive.
My post was in response to R39.
Watch "Pie in the Sky." Brigid Berlin was the genius.
I truly believe that someday-- like, hundreds of years from now-- Warhol will be better known for his diary than his art. He was the Pepys of our time.
R28, I agree with you. He was original and certainly the great artist of his time. He covered every media and his life was his art. His home (town house) was full of incredibly beautiful (and traditional) furnishings- that he was constantly turning over (replacing really as he never sold anything, or so I am told).
What I am suggesting having been up close a little and my X knowing him quite well, is that he was a calculated self creation- which I suppose was part of his art. And I do not think he was very happy. On the contrary, I think at his core he was scared shitless and sustained by going to mass every day and shopping compulsively and getting high- not at all the placid observer and recorder of popular culture and night life that he worked so hard to appear to be. As I said, just one person's take.
My X (and dear friend) was not an artist. He was a spectacular looking young man in NYC in the 1970s- He met Warhol at Studio. He was and is as smart as he is good looking and did not fall into the traps that many like him did-although he came close. Warhol's interest in him fed his interest in art, and he now has a modest collection of art, including a number of Warhols. He has a good enough collection to enable him to buy and sell a bit and live comfortably off profits.
I am a big fan of Keith Herring- original talent in the 80s who may have become a great one if not so tragically cut short by HIV.
[quote]Keith Herring- original talent in the 80s
Check out Robert Gordy before you say that aloud.
I'm glad charlie is thick-skinned and continues to post here.
I am as well, r51.
Charlie's a Bloomberg fanatic who pretends he's a staunch democrat.
You like that? Okay.
Truman Capote said something about Warhol I thought was interesting. He compared him to the mute John Singer in Carson McCuller's novel, "The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter." He said that the rather dull-witted people who knew the wordless John Singer thought he was a person of incredible depth, an almost mystical being endowed with special qualities of perception and knowledge, when in actuality he was a very boring, shallow nothing of a human being. He said it was the same with Andy Warhol; people saw him as some kind of unusual, otherworldly being who possessed special sensitivity and powers of observation, while in reality he was just a socially awkward, insecure, self-absorbed weirdo.
"he was just a socially awkward, insecure, self-absorbed weirdo."
Well, Capote would know...
charlie, I give you tons of playful shit when you drone on and on, slightly off topic, about something you obviously don't know much about (but act like you do). It's in between annoying and charming, as are you. But in this case, your gossip is great. Thanks!!
"he was just a socially awkward, insecure, self-absorbed weirdo."
Well, Capote would know..."
Capote was not "socially awkward", except when he had too much to drink or took too many pills. In fact, people were drawn to him because he was so amusing and entertaining. I don't think he was insecure or self-absorbed, either. He had quite a healthy ego, and I don't think he was any more self-absorbed than the average famous person. His voice and appearance were weird, though; this tiny (until he got fat) blonde man with the wee, lisping voice. Whatever Truman Capote was, he was nowhere near on the level of strangeness as Andy Warhol.
R54, If you have any doubt that Warhol was a talented, sensitive, and creative person just look at his work before the Pop era. His draftsmanship is exquisite. Very intimate and personal. I prefer the pop stuff, but the man had talent from the very start. He could draw circles around any other pop artist of his time.
I love Truman Capotes' writing,but he was mean! In Gore Vidals' memoir Palimsest there's a photo of Truman and Lee Radziwell ascending a stairway. The caption beneath reads(from memory), "having received instruction from their dark master,satan's legion sally forth to do his bidding"(ha!). Vidal said every word Capote ever uttered was a lie! Truman Capote was a very nasty drunk. Warhol after being amused by Capote found him needy and overbearing. I think there's a lot about Capote in the diaries. Warhol winds up avoiding him and not taking his calls. It would also seem to explain why Capote would say bitchy things about Warhol?
*Warhol was not the greatest artist of his generation. LOL. You can't be serious. To call him an artist is to invite comparisons to Monet, Picasso, et al. I repeat. Warhol was not an artist--unless you are one of those hopelessly pretentious people who think that a colorful screen of Mao is art.
What Warhol had was style and chutzpah. He was relentless in his self-promotion and in that sense he understand the culture better than almost anyone. He knew that it did not matter if you were mediocre or superficial. If you had style that was important. It did not matter if you lacked aesthetic judgement. Who cared? Style was more important.
And so we ended up where we are today, in a culture where writers as empty and stupid as Cormac McCarty and Don Dilillo count for something (when in fact their work will matter for shit in 20 years). Look at the popularity of Tarantino. No point at all to his films, and they are empty of value. Yet, they have style. Warhol would have loved Ms. Lohan and Snookie.
Nothing more than Warhol babies in drag.
*Capote was a great writer who turned into a great waste of talent. Sad. "The Thanksgiving Visitor," "A Christmas Memory," "Breakfast at Tiffany's" and "In Cold Blood" will last. He threw it all away, ironically because he became the same celebrity that Warhol did. Very sad.
r53, I think that you will find many Democratic and even liberal New Yorkers who appreciate Bloomberg. Further, holding that opinion is rather innoffensive as far as I'm concerned.
If you want to try and cleverly point out hypocrisy, direct your insults to Andy Warhol's ghost.
Warhol is as pivotal a figure in 20th century art history as Duchamp. And he WOULD love Snookie. That's the point. He held a mirror up to our culture.
The Diaries were not kind to Anna Wintour just starting out in NYC.
I've read the American version and the Ftench translation (Journal d'Andy Warhol).
Grasset, the Ftench publisher, cut it heavily. In many cases, the editors may have been afraid of lawsuits from those described. Bianca Jagger sued in England, due to the differences in the UK libel laws, as compared to the US.
Still, the funniest parts were from the French translators not understanding terms like "glory hole,"pink slip," etc.
I am a relatively new poster out here and you are pretty ubiquitous, but I thought your posts, were insightful and full of "gossip" pertinant to the OP's suggestion that Warhol was a sweetie.
I think that r54 reduced it well in terms of his personality and others infatuation.
It is both true and sad that Warhol was as great as he was. I won't try to explain what I mean by that except to say that the mind fuck of his arts predate, predicted and influenced so many aspects of our culture. Hard to know who to blame. It is not a pretty picture. Rarely.
I have been warned about you Charlie, because I do not appreciate Streisand, and for some other reasons, but I never find you less the genuine, if at times pendantic. Anyone who posts more than two sentences and does so with some authority comes under attack out here, it seems. I appreciate you. In other formats I would say change your style, but too many mean, contrary and unbalanced people make it impossible to have any real disagreement here.
I have nothing interesting to say about Warhol, expect that he makes me still think about his work and the mystery of all that. His work is clearly about not much more than thinking about what we see. Not a small thing. A bit anorexic though.
He was not a sweetie, but a damaged and quite unloving human being, with a lot of unexpressed anger as an artist, and yet of course it was expressed. He is for sure the first modern celebrity, and his take on himself and others was intriguing. Sweetness is not love, and he could not seem to care much for anyone. So they were all equally of interest, and 15 minutes was maybe only his tolerance. That is flip, and maybe his family relations have much to say. But they have spoken in their old world way. I am much interested in the morality in art, but so much of his art became about personality. Confusing.
I believe he utilized people and situations, more than exploited them. A morally ambivalent genius? Not sweet, something more interesting. Like his work - a commentary on feeling, rather than the feeling itself.
I think he lusted over Ken Norton which I love
Did he really have snaps surgicallly imbedded in his head so he could snap his wig on?
*I am NOT much interested in the morality of art*
My other mistakes will have to go uncorrected... too many to repair.
He had the AIDS you know.
To be a great artist is not about skill but about capturing the zeitgeist. Warhol did that better than anybody which is why he is one of the legitimate artists of the 20th century. Plenty of people can paint brilliantly, it doesn't mean they are valid artists. Art makes people question after all. It's not a science - it's about what may or may not be there.
(R31) The celebrity circle in NY is a small one and if Charlie has friends in it, then he probably has met a lot of people.
I've been on DL for probably 8 years and I've never seen a post by Charlie that I thought was false. All his stories about how he met people and why seem realistic. I just don't why he gets jumped on every time he posts. I don't always agree with his opinions on politics but I've never seen him write anything that is particularly mean or egregious.
DL likes to have its own memes and jumping on Charlie seems to be one of them. I don't like it because it seems really out of balance and unfair.
Andy seems warmer and funnier in his diaries than anywhere else.
To get a different side of the story read his assistant Bob Colacello's book "Holy Terror". It's great fun with lots of gossip about Andy and stars of the era.
His drawings are beautiful. I'd love him for those alone.
Are there unedited copies of the diaries available any more?
I bought it when it was first published...I wonder where it is...I preordered it....decades ago.
My impression was that Warhol was nit a nice person.
I'm a poster who has also been on DL for years and I've never read anything by charlie that would lead me to believe he makes stuff up. That said, I'm not sure that, given his description of his ex, Andy's treatment of a v. good-looking guy Charlie knows would mean he treated everyone that way.
I knew a very reclusive (now dead) celebrity that charlie claimed he "got to know." Completely absurd, and combined with his other name dropping, it was very easy to conclude that charlie invents and embellishes most of his stories.
Andy walking. Andy tired. Andy take a little snooze. Tie him up when he fast asleep. Send him on a pleasant cruise.
I agree that people should read Holy Terror,because you will laugh your head off! Bob colacello is the biggest crybaby pussy ever. He tries to blame Warhol for every bad choice he ever made (a terrible coke problem for one!). I found it very slimy that he wrote his version of What Ever Happened To Baby Jane after Andy was dead(of course!) the spineless always do. He blew all the money he made(from selling Warhol portraits!)on cocaine and a ridiculous lifestyle he could not afford. Andy tried to help him,and Bob paid him back by stabbing Andy in the back! Bob now perpetuates the Regean myth by kissing Nancy Regean's shriveled shitter in his embarrassing fluff pieces for Vanity Fair.
Why the hell are you all spelling my name like I'm a fish?
Basquait was a really depressing movie. I found "I Shot Andy Warhol" to be much more lively and less sentimental. I suppose when you're dealing with Valerie Solanas as opposed to the other guy, you're not going to romanticise LOL
Because, r84, Charlie can't even properly spell the name of the artist he likes. Pathetic.
Gore Vidal: "Andy Warhol is the only genius I've ever met with an IQ of 60."
And there's the paradox expressed perfectly. Warhol took his illustrative and graphic gifts and pushed them to the max. He was a good pop artist in the age of great pop music, and reflected his time: Rolling Stones and Velvet Underground LP covers etcetera.
As an artist though he was limited and shallow. His flat photo-derived works perfectly complement the tone of the diaries. Rauschenberg is a far more visually exciting artist, edgy and surprising, whose work is hugely expressive of his time.
Warhol was a marvellous impresario of his limited self, and a notable, curious character; but not a great artist.
If we're talking strictly about painting, then no, Andy was not as skilled as others. Although as others have pointed out his drawings are angelic, especially the early ones.
But art is more than the mere ability to paint. Andy understood "modern" art and explored it fully. Of course he knew the limitations of his painting ability. But he understood that all media was potential art. That's why he moved into film, music, publishing, celebrity, going out, and most importantly himself. He was his own greatest creation.
It's weird to Google/read about his brothers. They are these two very working-class, affable-seeming, disheveled blue collar dudes from Pittsburgh. I think one ran a scrap heap. I'm sure Andy felt alienated from his family.
Warhol did "meta" better than any artist before or since. His art always challenged the definition of art by deliberately sidestepping artistic expressiveness in favour of artificial, mechanical flourishes. Naming his studio The Factory was very apt as he was as much an industrialist as he was an artist, much like the studios of some of the old masters.
I love his 80s celebrity portraits that are sprinkled with diamond dust. You can't get a much better evocation of the era than that.
This makes me want to find my copy and read it again. I was in my late teens when I begged my mother for a copy which she purchased. She was only familiar with Warhol as a personality not as a painter but we both loved his diaries. We still quote some lines now an again.
I'm dancing with all of you!
What would Andy think of the modern pop queens? Gaga, Britney, Beyonce, Katy, Kesha, Rihanna?
Warhol was an immensely subversive artist--for both the content of his work and what it represented.
He'd say, "She's great." to whoever you mentioned, R92.
I think he'd take special interest in Britney though.
Andy pulled the rug out from underneath the traditional art establishment (those tortured, macho, drunken painters in their loft studios). He changed art and made it so much more interesting. He made it much gayer.
Andy was sickly as a boy. His mother moved his bed to the kitchen where it was warm,and to be closer to her during the day. She gave him his first art supplies. They spent most of his days with her,as he didn't go to school. There is a photo of them when he looks about two. They adored each other their whole lives. I always thought the relationship seemed tender and very natural. As opposed to creepy as some have alluded to. She lived in his townhouse, and took care of it and him until his housekeeper took over when his mother got too old.
So much uninformed fantasy and pronouncements here. Apart from "Herring," my favorites are R70 and R91. I think I shall suggest that my colleagues teaching art history and aesthetics courses use them as examples of what not to presume to share in response to homework assignments.
Andy Warhol was a sensitive, gay, mama's boy with major, major Aspergers.
This pretty much explains everything about his art and persona.
I think Pat Hackett,the editor of the diaries, probably cut a lot of interesting material about people. There is relatively little about Andy's assistant Fred Hughes in the diaries and what there is about him isn't particularly friendly.
Does anyone here know more about Fred Hughes?
[quote]I do not know, but I think one of his biggest fears was of sex and intimacy. That was the overwhelming impression I had of him.
This was the common perception of him, charlie, not something you specifically observed. It's interesting to hear what you have to say about people you may have run into, it's just these embellishments that make people roll.
For the 40 and under crowd, can you talk some about him in a way that doesn't assume we know much about him?
There are some of us who couldn't pick him out in a line-uP.
Isn't that a great line, r91 ?
I love when Andy writes in the diary about going to the movies to see "Ghandi" and seeing Candice Bergen in it.
"They didn't get faggy little Andy Warhol"
I feel his pain. Or maybe it's just gas.
[quote]caring, a churchgoer,
The fraus truly have taken over DL.
Warhol knew that his diaries would get published so he wrote stuff that put himself in a positive light. He was actually quite vile. He gave his mentally unstable "friends" drugs and watched them destroy themself. He did not lift a finger to help them, it fascinated him to watch them crash. I know that there are people who say that he was quite nice and generous towards them but the only reason for it was because he needed them.
lol R102. I see what you mean about charlie. That said, I enjoy his posts.
If Hackett did leave stuff out, I wish she'd reconsider.
R70 Oh, so THAT'S Why there is so much crap out there passing as "art".
Future generations will consider us fools.
Boy George admitted Andy couldn't stand him, but thought it was funny he called him fat in his diaries. Andy used to be BFF with Cornelia Guest, who I thought was the Paris Hilton of the time, and that surprises me.
Charlie, I hope you post on DL for a long time. If you ever do start a blog, let us know! It would be fun to read! Post on, Charlie, post on!!! You have fans!
[quote] "NYC in the Warhol era was a small town."
LOL. Read that in a book or something? No, it wasn't. I know because I was there.
Really, R35? NYC in the Warhol era was far less like the one large cohesive city it is today than like a large number of small towns abutting one another, rarely overlapping borders, and with little in common socially.
I liked your post, too, Charlie.
When I read the diaries, I thought he came across as shallow, shallow-stupid, and a big asskissing social climber.
I agree with R83--Holy Terror is a scream, and Colacello comes across as big of a namedropping celebrity whore as Warhol ever was. Entertaining, but take it with a grain of salt.
Warhol never "gave drugs to anyone(he was to frugal). I think he dabbled in speed in the early sixties with Lou Reed and the Velvets,and maybe a little coke in the eighties. Everything I've seen,heard or read indicates he was very turned- off by drugs. The poster above (IMO) is perpetuating one of the most tired lies about Warhol! At the very least Andy would have bankrupted himself supplying drugs to Reed,Nico(yikes!),the other Velvets,Edie(again,yikes),Bob,Fred,Viva,Candy,Little Joe,Bridget,Paul Morrissey,Jackie Curtis,Gerard Malanga,Ultra Violet,Geri miller,Susan Bottomly,International Velvet,The Guy That Lived In The Supply Closet,Billy Name,Geraldine Smith,Jane Forth,Gigi and Ronnie Cotrone,Susie Frankfort,victor Hugo,Barbara Allen, Catherine Guiness,Andrea Feldman,Jane Forth,J M Basquiat,Christopher Makos,etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.??!!
Shut. The. Fuck. Up. About this tired.nasty,ignorant myth. It's one perpetuated in part by us. It's easier to just keep re-telling this boring,and untrue tale. Andy worried about his associates drug use and often said so to their faces! STOP!
Oh,and also Fred Hughes was caught looting Andy's townhouse moments after he died!
Not quite, r112. Manhattan was and is in sections: the upper east side, the upper west side, Chelsea, east & west village, lower east side, the midtown business district, the garment district, the theater district, etc, etc, etc. Its the same today.
Please give me examples if my embellishments. I told you these are my opinions. I am totally aware that my take on Andy is not outside others. My opinions are based on observing Andy up close, and the recollections and experiences of two if my very best (if not closest) friends over the years. I've been in NYC all my life and through circumstance and survival I have met and gotten to know a fair number of well known people- so too have my two friends I have referred to in my posts, perhaps now so than me.
Fred Hughs (impression again) was a smart even sexy when he was young self invented iconoclast who was clever enough to latch on to Warhol early (Andy loved cute men like most homos). He also happened to be a lawyer. I believe he was (and may still be) the executor or director of Andy's foundation- this would be public record. By the time I met him in about 1980 it was completely obvious to be that he was essentially a self promoting manipulator par excellent- and someone to keep at arms length. He was not unlike a lot of people I have known of in NYC- ambitious self seeking self promoters- a shark. I haveI llist track of him and all Warhol stuff in the late 80s. Probably would be interesting to Google him and the Warhol Foundation (trust?) too see if he is still alive and involved.
R81 , who would that be?
Yes my spelling sucks and I don't proof my posts. I know -Haring, trust me- I can misspell amd!
Fred Hughs died in 2001. Do a search on his name plus Warhol, and the link is among the first few.
I had a run in with Andy Warhol. Not name dropping just telling what happened. I was a movie premiere party. You had to go up stairs to the tables. I had just met Robert Downey Jr, (before the meltdown) and we were talking and walking along with the crowd, when bang. I have a mop of white hair in my face and I hear "ohhh". He looks up and there I am face to face with Warhol, let's just say he was rather striking looking up close, kind of a shock. He must have been walking with his head down and ran right into me. I moved out of the way and he kept on going. Downey and I both laughed and we were both like, "Holy shit, that was Andy Warhol!".
Fred Hughes is dead. And he seems like a slimeball. He went into Warhol's townhouse the day he died and began hoarding stuff, then told his brothers to leave.
R116, then he sure shared what he had- at least at Studio- and he sure like to share what someone else had.
What horrible people, r122.
I loved his shocked response when Dunaway didn't get a "Mommie Dearest" Oscar nom.
Oh,for Christ's sake! Instead of a dismissive two sentence comment about how YOU took drugs with Andy Warhol,Please share ALL the details(that is what DL is supposed to be about!). In my posts I mentioned that it seemed to ME,that Andy's experience with drugs had been speed with Lou Reed and The Velvet Underground,in the Early sixties,and dabbling with cocaine in the eighties! All YOU did was vaguely "confirm" what I said! If you want to pop-on and dismiss my detailed post please "correct" me with DETAILS.
I read his diaries years ago. He struck me as a very petty, mean spirited man. Gossiping in corners with his BFFs, watching and criticizing, making fun of the people around him. Was not impressed at all. Though that has nothing to do with his art.
I agree with all of ranger/R60's post.
What about Gerard Malanga?
(R60) Have you seen much Warhol up close?
I had the same impression of his not being a great artist until I saw some of the more famous works in person. They are stunning and beautifully made. What looks simple is often that much more difficult to achieve.
Monet, Picasso and all were reflecting the times that they lived in. So was Warhol and he did so brilliantly.
The Andy/Jon Gould romance (?) would make a great movie. Sad on both ends. Andy's reaction to Gould's death and how Gould had to hide who he was in the film industry.
charlie, I love your posts but StephenBright&Dark has got your number on this issue.
Either you are lying or your friends who claim to have known Andy (and the Interman doesn't really count--there were lots of them and none of them were especially close to him based on his diaries) are lying. Andy was not known for supplying drugs to people at all. He enjoyed some of the craziness but he disliked it too. Look at the list StephenBright&Dark posted. Those were all hard-core addicts who did it to themselves.
I have no idea who "Charlie" is, and I've been on DL a solid 10 years now.
He (or, she?) seems to have come out of nowhere and why I don't mind his posts, he claims to have some sort of personal connection with many, many famous circumstances, people and events; almost Forrest Gump in a way.
DL is full of these people who come and go and who, for whatever messed up reason, some to act out some odd fantasy. So, take what this person has to say with a huge grain of salt. But, you knew that already.
Sorry, "why' should have been "while".
Could someone who has read the diaries tell us if he goes into any detail on Robert Mapplethorpe or Patti Smith?
I've downloaded the book but am only a few pages in. A lot of it's very interesting but it's difficult to read so many mundane, otherwise empty entries which only seem to detail who he went to lunch and dinner with that day and how much his cab fare was.
I never did drugs with Andy- but my X did- Lots- at Studio and my X believed Andy to have a significant problem and spoke about it often. By the way- so did my X- he is clean and sober now. Is that specific enough for you?
As for my Forrest Gump experiences- I am no FG, and you would be surprised how many gay men of my generation who lived in NYC or LA, worked in businesses used by celebrities, gay, attractive, and survivors have similar experiences to mine. As I said- both my X and my long time best friend have pretty similar stories.
I do not meet too many Hollywood types anymore because of my work- but I do meet political people because I do participate in political fundraising. Also a bit of the NYC GLTB charity world because I have a little extra money in later middle age. Going to the HRC dinner this Sat in NYC which will be full of politicians and a few famous people.
I relate my experience and opinion- that's all. I'm thinking of stopping my posting because too many people on DL are just nasty- angry- mean.
Most people love your posts, Charlie. But I wouldn't blame you if you left DL--the people here are horrible.
I've been posting on DL for about 10 years as well R137. I think I'm going to stop because the reactions are too unpleasant- Joe My God is more interesting these days and discussion is not as mean spirited.
I like charlie's posts.
But if he ever comes out for Quinn for Mayor he is dead to me.
The formula for Charlie's posts remind me of when 'Josh' used to post.
Charlie posts something, (more like, posts in streams), somebody takes issue with the coincidences of him knowing personally of this event or that person or being here or there at that particular time.... then it's immediately followed by what would appear to be a gushing fan of the posts.
R141, we're on to you, Charlie.
Truman Capote seemed like the type that would wake up and waste half a day on the telephone gossiping. I imagine Andy Warhol did his gossiping when he was at Studio 54 and wanted his days free to work on his art.
Didn't he say Goldie Hawn got in the elevator with him and she smelled?
Charlie is always interesting and/or entertaining, and some of his posts on nutrition have been very informative. I really hope he stays.
I like Charlie's posts, too, and hope he stays.
[quote]Didn't he say Goldie Hawn got in the elevator with him and she smelled?
I think he references Jerry Hall's body odor.
He liked Tanya Tucker and used to follow her around Studio 54 snapping photos of her.
charlie claimed to see Morgan Fairchild making herself sexually available to the trainers of Golds Gym, so she couldn't possibly be a lesbian. They're good friends, you know.
Taking a vacation from DL- posts like R144 are not pleasant- I'm tired of it. I try real hard not to be mean and to put my experience in perspective. My X adored Andy and knew him very well- he is in the dairies by the way- all over the place. We used to discuss Andy endlessly. I admired his genius but was creeped out by him personally.
I've read quite a bit around Picasso- mostly John Richardson (who yes I met as he was a customer of mine at that fancy store Andre Oliver where I worked in the late 70s and early 80s)- and according to him- Picasso was a monster. Lots of great artists are and were very difficult and/or eccentric human beings. And Richardson was Picasso's friend!
R144 has achieved what he wants I guess. The bar is not as low at Joe My God as it is here. I'm kind of sick of being called a liar among other things. It's toxic you know. I don't want to go back to posting anonymous because I think it more interesting to have discussion when you identify your posts. Enuf.
A lot of charlie's experiences are based on waiting on customers as a sales clerk or hearing about celebrities based on what customers or his acquaintances tell him. Suddenly these celebrities are 'friends.' It's okay that he has opinions, but these opinions are very superficial, and are hardly inside info.
That is why people challenge him.
Charlie, just remember that far more people here appreciate your posts than do not.
I don't care how or where Charlie gets his anecdotes, it's interesting and different. The people that criticize him seem like the psychos - how can they be so angry over some poster they don't know? If you want to say he is lying, well you could say that about anyone posting here or on the internet. Are you going to get angry at everyone? His posts are more interesting than the psychos who attack him.
Cannot resist R153- yes I waited on John Richardson- this was no ordinary store though. I also had spent time with him at my bosses appartment, and many of our customers I saw at the restaurant Elaines- at Studio, and other popular haunts of the time (Warhol falles into this category, and then some due to my X). Fact is I did get to know them- more like being their hairdresser- but many as you say, only as a salesman. In the case of many of the society women, I already knew them through my mother's activities- some quite well. In fact, that is why I was hired by Andre Oliver- That's all.
R144, if Charlie leaves, then there will be more room on DL for you to post about your mother's quirks or how mean people were to you in high school or how angry you got when some housewife who pushed ahead of you in a grocery store line.
I'm sure everyone is looking forward to these riveting posts!
R156, do you remember writing that if Lena Horne's a lesbian you're Bin Laden? that was because you waited on her in a store and got to know her well.
Yes, and I got to know her a little bit- she came in quite a lot around the time of her one woman show on Broadway. In this store our customers sat down and had a glass of wine- sometimes we ordered out lunch for them. It was loads of fun and we talked about a lot more than what we were selling. Yes Lena had gay men around her, including one of her husbands- but if she was a lesbian, I'm one too. Funny, in Arthur Laurent's autobiography he speaks a lot about Lena- never about her being gay though- which he certainly does not hold off on for others. She joked all the time about hot men and was feminine to the bottom of her toes. I can tell the difference-Liz Smith came in a lot too! And she was a doll. Also I did a lot more in that business than sell the merchanidise.
I enjoy discussion like this without the nasty name calling etc., but I am going to give this site a break. It really has gotten too nasty.
Someone mentioned being perplexed by the asides pertaining to cab fares,lunch tabs,and other expenditures. The diaries only exist because Andy's tax lawyer(s)/accountant(s),were endlessly frustrated with him. Warhol was notoriously frugal but,paradoxically impulsive with money. He enjoyed buying gifts for friends,but loved stockpiling tchotchkes and expensive collectibles. He was also (as it turned out after his death) an avid aficionado of jewelry (men's and ladies). The professionals mentioned came up with with the idea for the "diaries" as a way to keep track of Andy's eccentric spending habits. It was suggested that,since he tended to speak to Pat Hackett first thing in the morning ( she,being the only person in his circle who was up as early as he was!) why not have her record (and subsequently transcribe) her daily morning conversations with him. So while the previous day was still fresh in his memory he would tell her about it. I imagine that every time Andy would say something like Dali,Gala,their assistant,and I had lunch at Le'Cirque,Miss Hackett would interject and get the details about who paid for the lunch,cab,etc. this way most of those expenses could be written off,if,say Andy interviewed Dali for the magazine(remember the big oversized Interview's? Sigh.). Also I imagine many of the big(jewelry,art,antique,etc.) were purposely left out of the finished diaries.
If I remember correctly there were "entries" like "went by Bulgari",or saw so and so (in the wholesale diamond district?). After Andy's death lots of jewelry and loose diamonds were found in the pockets of his jackets! I've seen photos of all the items for the auctions of his things..dozens of "mammy" cookie jars Bakealite.tiffany lamps, jewelry,art,books,etc. One more thing,someone here derided his spiritual side way up-thread,and it turned out that Warhol went to mass almost every morning after he'd moved to his last townhouse. The priests mentioned it to his family at his funeral. I've always liked the idea that almost no one who knew him knew that! He described being embarrassed when he'd run into any of the social ex-rays from his tony neighborhood . I'm really enjoying this thread . So, Thank You.
R159, Lena would pick up female audience members through her manager. She took one to London for a week when the show went there in 1984. I KNOW you don't know shit.
"She joked all the time about hot men and was feminine to the bottom of her toes"
Another example of what you don't know about lesbians.
"Funny, in Arthur Laurent's autobiography he speaks a lot about Lena- never about her being gay though- which he certainly does not hold off on for others."
You apparently don't know that Laurents would not out a celebrity unless they'd been outed by someone else first.
Warhol, sedwick, et. al., are NEVER EVER discussed on datalounge.
Also, neither is his comeback nor his later artist circle, including haring.
So, my questions is, WHY THE HELL NOT?
They brought gay to the mainstream. It seems like it would be a hot topic on DL.
Discuss away sweetie!
R159, if you saw her gay husband, you were seeing thing since he died in 1970.
I agree, R162.
r162, the people here are too young to know all that Warhol shit.
R161, you are telling a bald faced lie.
Um, no, r167. Some of it is in a 2009 bio.
OH, I SEE. R167 is charlie not signing his post. LOL.
It is not in that bio, I have read it. I know when her first husband died, he was her arranger and mentor really- and probably alcoholic. If I had the 2009 bio I would look up his name.
Laurent wrote whatever he felt like in his auto bio- he certainly out Farley Granger all over the place before Farley ever did.
Lena Horne did not pick women out of her B'way show audiences to have sex with at age 64 in the early 80s and it was not in the bio recently published if it is the same I read in 2009. Garbage.
The bio I am referring to was written by Gavin, and published in 2010 I believe. It is by far the best bio of her and there is no such tale of her picking women out of the audience for her sexual pleasure. Its a great read by the way and hardly sugar coated. She had a frustrating life and was not a particularly happy woman as depicted in the book. This is just the sort of crap (above) that is making me leave DL.
My last post.
The first time I read the diaries I read it quickly. Like many people I couldn't wait to hear all the celebrity gossip. The second time I read them was a revelation.
The fact that Andy Warhol had such a dry,droll,and unique sense of humor was
Completely lost on me!
He would say things like,I'm so tired of these guys with the thirty-eight inch waists
Squeezing themselves into "Calvin's " jeans.
Or, Is so and so back? I thought we just threw her a going-away lunch? I'm really over these people who are always saying they're going to leave,and they never do!
Or. We had dinner at so and so's,on Park Avenue. The wife had that panicky look they all get when they think they're about to be traded-in!
I remember those diaries were the must-read at the time. Everyone thought they had purchased top secret files when they bought that book. But it was all pretty lame. Most of Middle America had no idea who most of the art personalities were. Liza was on drugs?! PEOPLE magazine told us that. Andy was at Madonna and Sean's wedding and Sean shot at the helicopters! The National Enquirer told us that.
It was pretty much a con job.
Sorry you're finding DL so snarky that you have to leave, Charlie, but I see your point. I don't see eye-to-eye with you on everything but I still like reading your contributions.
R93 - Warhol was not subversive. He idolised wealth and glamour and cultivated friendships in NY's socialite set. Social climbers are rarely known for their subversiveness.
R116 - In his later years Andy confessed to having been prescribed amphetamines for years. He loved amphetamines for the amount of work he could do on them. He used uppers to get him moving at the start of the day, and downers to help him sleep at night. He only occasionally used cocaine but could not get by without his prescriptions.
R170, yes, she did. It shouldn't upset you so much. The Gavin book talks about one of them. Are you David Ehrenstein?
R174 is correct.
By all accounts, including Warhol's own in his diaries, he took drugs until the day of his death.
Not at an addict's level, but he took small dosages of dextroamphetamine each morning, to get started.
He also used sedatives, primarily Valium, daily. Sometimes, stronger sleeping pills, such as Seconal.
I'm not claiming he "got Edie hooked" but he certainly never discouraged drug usage, when it worked to his artistic advantage.
He may well have pulled away from the desperate cases, but only because they frightened him or were asking for money.
[quote]He may well have pulled away from the desperate cases, but only because they frightened him or were asking for money.
Yes, like any sane person.
charlie, I'm a fan too. Please don't let the mean girls get to you.
I read the diaries a gazillion years ago. Mostly I came away with the expression that he was a nasty and not particularly bright man.
I know your secret Charlie, but I will not tell.
I don't get the Charlie hate either. I lived in NYC for the better part of two decades and made amazing connections just being there and going to clubs. I have friends who lead lives that the cubicle dwellers would poop their pants about and scoff at and say I was lying if I told you. It used to amaze me too, twenty years ago when I was a hayseed fresh off the bus. But now, it's just how life is.
If you make your life amazing and put yourself in amazing places, well, amazing things happen. Those who scoff are dead inside pretty much and think everyone else should be too. I will never allow muggles to spoil my fun, never have, and never will. You live in your little box and have the personality of cardboard, and I'll cavort with incredible people and do things that will astound you. That is all.
"Charlie" is a troll who went overboard in pretending to have personal experience with everyone and all things famous. He/she inundates threads with all these fabrications then posts as gushing 'Charlie' fans begging him not to leave.
Those of us who've been around here several years recognize a troll when we see one and this poor lonely person is one.
Ban the troll please.
Guys, don't tease charlie. If he comes back you know you'll abuse him.
R182, that is a lie- use trolldar you imbecile. I have never posted gushes over my posts and everything I have posted is true, although as I state in posts my impressions and opinions about my experience. But I am not going to be posting anymore because of unpleasant people like you. Not fun anymore- and don't worry- I'm not mad or even hurt- more disgusted.
charlie has some reading comprehension issues.
From James Gavin's 2009 book bio on Lena Horne. Note Lena was alive and Gavin had to be careful.
Civil Rights Leader, Dr. Jeanne Noble was a very *close* friend of Lena's since 1958.
Pg 349. In 1963, "She and Lena were joined at the hip...I would hear people say they were lovers." Claude Thompson and Tom Hacker (Arthur Laurents BF), believed it.
Pg 447 describes Lena befriending a fan that she *sees* for almost 2 years and brings to London with her show The Lady & Her Music.
Lena was bisexual and we've been talking about for over a decade at the Datalounge. That charlie needs to justify his alleged experiences by denying other's, well, that just does not work.
R184, you trash other people's opinions that are different from yours - that's trolling - it's you way or the highway. That's not right.
Nothing in r185s post suggests Lena's manager picked women out of the audience for her sexual pleasure.. Dr Noble was her mentor and friend for certain- helped her understand and sort through her considerable and legitimate race issue problems. Speculation about their relationship is just that. Women can be close friends you know. Read the book about her entire life and decide yourself- its very good and a little disturbing.
R186, the posts I am responding to are those that entirely misrepresent the Gavin book and simply calling me a liar. I respect differing opinion.
DL has also been calling Bradley Cooper and Tom Cruise gay for years too although no one anywhere to my knowledge gas offered real evidence. There is evidence on others like Travolta, Cary Grant, Anthony Perkins, or Andy Warhol (who i believe was celibate) etc.
I thought charlie promised to finally STFU?
SHUT THE FUCK UP CHARLIE THE LIAR!!
charlie, I wonder what you would say if that kind of stuff was written about George Clooney. Or even Merv Griffin, you know, it isn't exactly "proof".
The Lena and Jeanne Noble relationship is very well known. When another bio is written or if Gavin updates the 2009 one, we'll be able to read a lot more. Same with Lena's other affairs with women. Btw I personally know about other fans that got the back stage treatment in 1981.
Why are you so frightened? Or is this about YOU, that you know it all and nobody else does? This is a major mistake, charlie. If you told us about your experiences and let others tell theirs -- even if different from your's -- people here would leave you alone.
More: charlie explain what the fan was doing in Lena's room (pg 447), for something described as "personal and private."
NOW back to Warhol.
Then tell us about them R189. I know someone who was back stage with Lena on a regular basis during that show. He is a well known composer, best friend of the store manager where I met her, and the reason she came in, in the first place. By the way, Dr Noble was in the store as well.
I'm not frighted R189- of what?
Yes back to Warhol who IS a facinating character- one of the most of the 20th Century in fact.
You know, I have an interesting opinion and some very personal stories about (insert name of obscure famous person here). See, I worked in a shop once, and ALLLLLL of these famous people came in and I "got to know" them, so I'm going to share with you all the details of their lives you've never heard about, including but not limited to their sexuality, personal finances, who they slept with, etc. etc. etc. because, you know, I was a clerk in this store and they loved me and they came back so many times and kept forcing me to listen to all of the personal details of their lives.
See, who needs to write a book about all of these VERY true stores and make millions, when I can make a run-on nuisance of myself here and post it on Datalounge? Oh, and never mind that I keep threatening to go away. I won't. Because, see, I'm fucking crazy and this is the only way in my sad life I can attract any attention from other human beings.
Oh, and there's a 98% chance I'm really a mid-fifties year old female who slumps around my apartment wearing a dirty nightgown and surrounded by howling cats."
I've always thought Charlie was some sad, 30-something theater queen who needs to post his absurd, obviously fake ramblings because he's lonely.
Whomever it is, one thing is clear. His frequency of posts and the fact they all seem to have outlandish personal crossings with the rich and famous has proved him to be fake. Entertaining to some of us perhaps, but fake.
Charlie, time to come up with a new shtick. I think you've been exposed here.
Charlie stop making this Warhol thread ABOUT YOU.
Except they are not R194- not one bit of them- however I have been supposedly exposed- you gonna tell me I don't live in Manhattan too? This was no ordinary store by the way. And I was only there for 5 years- if you know of my posts over the years you should know that all my fodder does not come from this store. I am 59, and have had since that store a 30 year career in another very very different world.
I will stop because I agree this is tiresome and I really do want to get away from DL for a while. It can be fun, but also a bit toxic.
It's up to you to tell us why you're so defensive about what others tell you about Lena Horne. You so don't want her to be bisexual or lesbian.
"I know someone who was back stage with Lena on a regular basis during that show."
Yeah, so do I. Lena saw anyone who came backstage. There were teenagers who told me they spent a couple of days backstage after the show when it toured. However, her manager brought back a select few for other reasons --James Gavin knows all about it. It happens. The woman fan mentioned in Gavin's book started corresponding with her manager, got free tickets in several cities and ended up in Lena's hotel room in Dallas in 1983. It could be they were "just friends," LOL.
"Oh, and there's a 98% chance I'm really a mid-fifties year old female who slumps around my apartment wearing a dirty nightgown and surrounded by howling cats."
I was wondering about your claim for five years to be a 54 year old male. Seems you never age.
Stop this now or be banned!
Why do some gay men want their divas to be straight? I'm kind of the opposite.
What is with the anti-Charlie trolls? Charlie is a long-time DL poster and I've always enjoyed his posts. And R197, I'm pretty sure he owns up to being 57 or 58, not 54 - he's about the same age as I am. DL is pathetic these days. smh
He was 54 from 2005 to 2009.
That's a good question, r199. And Lena was so butch.
He just mentioned he was 59.
Yes, but it's 2013.
What might Warhol have thought of Jodie Foster's coming out? Who knows. But here are some thoughts on Foster:
I have never made any such claim and when I have referred to my age, I provide it as it is, at the time.
I do not believe Lena Horne was lesbian. Oh I could be wrong. I did not get the impression then, or now. I read the Gavin book, loved it. Lena came into Andre Oliver with that composer- who is gay, the store manager was gay too. Now I spoke to this manager on a daily basis- he was a fan of and knew Lena for decades. He never said boo about her being gay- and he did talk about others who he knew something about. He too in his life had met a lot of interesting and famous people- screwed Jane Fonda over a sink in the early 60s at a party (one of his better stories- he was a model in the 1950s and worked with Jane, Ali McGraw, others). The owner of this store along with Pierre Cardin and Andre Oliver was Danny Zarem, one of his brothers was Bobby Zarem, very big publicist at the time. Danny knew everyone and dragged me around places a lot-some of it was fun, some of it was about work- celebrities in the $tore meant bu$ine$$. Danny is how I met Warhol- not in the store either.
I do not lie, about my age, who I have met or who I know. And I know my impressions are not necessarily the truth, but then this is a gossip site. Sorry if I was dismissive about Warhol's drug use- another poster nailed it (he used them, daily.)
I apologize for going on, but I am offended at being called a liar and accused of things that I have never done (lie about my age?) Or make up stories.
"Charlie" has ruined this thread and this book nor Warhol can be discussed without this asshole making nearly every sub-thread topic about him.
There are no "anti Charlie" trolls; just people who're tired of this person making a nuisance of himself and being a troll himself.
And yeah, I've been around here an eon and never remember Charlie before several months ago or maybe a year at most.
Thank you 207.
Charlie -- be gone! Before someone drops a house on you!
You know everything, charlie. But what was she, celibate? She was separated from her gay husband since 1962. I want to hear what you come up with.
Was Kitty D'Alessio with Lena when she came into the "shop"? You don't want to hear about that one...
Don't answer. Stop this now.
[quote]And yeah, I've been around here an eon and never remember Charlie before several months ago or maybe a year at most.
He's been posting here for several years.
And his posts are far more interesting than your whining.
R211 is correct, he's been around for years. Although you must include charlie's whining too...
[quote]he's been around for years.
yeah, that never happened.
"I do not believe Lena Horne was lesbian... Now I spoke to this manager on a daily basis- he was a fan of and knew Lena for decades. He never said boo about her being gay- and he did talk about others who he knew something about."
I can't stop laughing. Do you seriously think that Lena Horne would tell a store manager she knew casually that the woman with her was her lover? That she would invite him to her apartment for a lesbian party full of lesbians? That you or he could "tell" if she was or was not a lesbian because she appeared feminine to you?
Whatever happened to Edie's siblings?
I posted on this thread several times over the last few days. I feel like I've contributed some interesting and funny anecdotes.
Sooo,imagine how excited I was when I checked in tonight and saw the thread had almost fifty new posts!
Only three or four of these were even about Andy or the diaries!
The thread has now devolved into, some bullshit about Lena Horne(who frankly,always creeped me out! Even as a kid in the sixties),and a tantrum by this Charlie person.
My last post included an anecdote wherein Andy says,"I'm so tired of these people who are always saying they're gonna leave,and they never do!".
Can we please save this thread?
I'll start. Someone up thread mentioned Jon Gould ,the producer Andy crushed on? I remember finding Gould really attractive. Also how shaken Andy was by his illness and subsequent death. I was working in gay clubs in Boston and Provincetown in the eighties. I think now,that my drug and alcohol use was so heavy,due to the terror I was trying to stuff,while so many people I knew were getting sick (and of course dying.). I think Warhol died in eighty-seven(?). But it's only now I'm thinking the reason I haven't thought too much about Warhol and the diaries,is because of how painful that time was?
Start another thread and hope charlie does not post.
good question R215
Did Edie have a gay brother named Minty? The mainline father drove him to suicide. Edie loved Minty,and stayed high to not have to feel it?
I feel like this might also be a story from Haywire,only Edie is Brooke Hayward?
Does anyone have any reds?
Victor Hugo &Halston!
Did anyone here read Simply Halston?
There was Minty and another one, who also died. The third brother is still around but damaged.
The were all Harvard people -- Porcellian types. We had a Porcellian guy who used to post here -- maybe he has a tale or two?
Quote by Andy Warhol from his diaries:
"How is it that someone so smart and so funny can't figure out that being mean always backfires?"
I can't believe that drunken idiot ruined this thread!
The brother who remained seems to have come out OK. He moved to Idaho and has two successful kids.
I read the Andy Warhol Diaries, and I'd say he "seems like rather" a cunt in them.
But what about LENA???
Getting back to charlie's initial claim that Andy was NOT a sweetie, as OP posted, because he somehow gave or made other take drugs.
When challenged on it, all he responds with is that his ex did drugs at Studio and that ex told him Andy had a problem.
Which may be true, but what the f does that have to do with charlie's initial post in which he attempts to give deep and personal insight into what a bad guy Andy was? Nothing. He knows nothing except what some at-the-time high ex told him. Which is what he should have said. But in his first post, he attempts to act like an authority on Andy's character when he didn't know him at all.
I enjoy a lot of his posts but he really inflates the minor access he had back in the day.
Charlie's opinions are based on "experience" and are always right. You cannot challenge that without starting a fight. If he spoke to a man who knew celebrity gossip about another celebrity's ex's ex who knew the celebrity in question, he's got the true story.
Warhol drank, but drug use isn't really mentioned in the Diary.
They are a salacious romp.
I read the Warhol Diaries when I was home from college one summer and bored at my summer job. I checked the book out from the library and I took it to work with me. It is one of my all time favorites. Warhol had such a fascinating life. Reading the diaries is a bit like hanging out with Andy for a few days. I was born in 1975 so I was a child during the days of disco. The diaries give a wonderful sense of what the days of disco were like and particularly the the New York club scene. I just recently bought a copy on Amazon so that I can reread it. I don't know that I ever really thought of Andy as mean. He reminded me of many of my gay friends. I found his monosyllabic persona to be quite entertaining. I hated to get to the end of the book. I think this nonsense about Warhol supplying drugs is ridiculous. Addicts don't need any particular person to supply the drugs, they are going to get them; one way or the other. The crowd from the early factory years was a wild bunch; which is why Andy liked having them around. They had their own vices prior to ever meeting Warhol though. As far as Data Lounge favorite Charlie; he always seems to offer information that's pretty well common knowledge or at least common speculation. It was strange that he mentioned Fred Hughes and then refused to google him. It seemed like an attempt to prove that he's not merely googling all of the info that he post here.
Jesus, I just read the whole thread. Who are these pieces of shit who want to ban people who have interesting gossip to share? FUCK YOU, ASSHOLES.
And now... back to Andy Warhol.
Stupid, as you call McCarthy, does not produce works like Blood Meridian.
I have always had the impression AW was a maligned person. From the time I wrote a report on him in high school,almost forty years ago,I've read everything I could about him. Never have I seen a public figure who's character was trashed as much,posthumously I might add,to the extent that Warhol's has been.
John Cale and Lou Reed are two exceptions. They both speak of Andy with respect and Affection. Interestingly the day AW spends galavanting around NYC with Reed reveals a rare side of Warhol. Andy describes the day in a breathless way. It's very clear that he is in awe of Reed's life,and that he's having a,dare I say,"Perfect Day"!? Pat Hackett,his friend and editor of The Diaries, also spoke well of him. The same goes for JM Basquiat,Bowie,Dennis Hopper,and Julian Schnabel to name a few more.
One obvious thing I think all these people have in common is not having anything to gain (or lose?) from their relationships with Andy!
Since his death it is usually the same people who have been asked for comment about him. Most of them are dead now, but what I think THEY all have in common is a mean spirited bitterness that their association with Warhol wound-up being all THEY were ever "famous" for!?
Read: Colacello,Hughes,and the"superstars" etc.
I'm a huge Andy Warhol fan.
I also can't stand Charlie. Glad that old cunt has STFU.
Whatever else Warhol was, he was NOT a "sweetie." I don't think he had any genuine feelings for anyone in his life. He was a strange, empty person. I guess he tried to assuage his emptiness by hanging out with celebrities and working (he worked hard) and buying lots of stuff. At his death, an amazing amount of STUFF was found in his possession, lots of it still in the bags and boxes it came came in. Some of it was expensive, some of it was cheap junk. It was said he bought something EVERY DAY. He was a bizarre, sad man. And people worshipped him! How fucked is that? Andy Warhol was not an admirable person.
[quote]Who are these pieces of shit who want to ban people who have interesting gossip to share? FUCK YOU, ASSHOLES.
It's astonishing, isn't it? Anyone who has actually had any existence outside of a cubicle is slammed as a fraud, phony, etc.
Real gossip is so much less interesting than talking about the box office take on Superman. And, of course, battles with Mother.
I believe everything Charlie says. You scoffers are either very young or a little long in the tooth,, and missed out on the 1970's.
My sister, who is now an office frau, really, truly, did have amazing experiences just because she was a young, cute girl growing up in LA in the 1970's. Now mind you, it was not the cultural mecca that NY was but she did enjoy some enviable times that no one would believe. It's almost cartoonish, but it all happened.
The 1970's predated the rise of materialism that still chokes us all today. In other words, you didn't have to really "be somebody" or have money or bling in order to socialize with the well-heeled. Not on the west coast anyway.
It was all about creativity, somewhat about looks, but more importantly about enthusiasm and intimacy.
And then it all went to hell.
R242 I blame REAGAN!!
I don't disagree with the experiences charlie claims, I just disagree with his cock-eyed conclusions. He has a warped need to be right about things he knows nothing about.
Reagan and his cronies had a huge role in ruining our fun.
But it wasn't always fun and games--I remember no one eating, ever, throughout that decade!
the focus was on coke, booze, and pot with a dash of heroin however no one seemed to actually sit down and EAT!
We were all so skinny, having a blast but also dying of malnourishment.
Charlie, if you're still here-did you ever see people actually eat?
R239, you should read the thread.
Halston,Gucci,Fiorucci...he looks like a star!
R247 He looks like a STILL, the man was dressed to kill.
His dumb vapid persona was really just an act. He's so catty and hilarious --and frequently spot-on in his personality assessments -- in his Diaries. I miss him! Can you imagine what he would have to say about Lady Gaga? Can you even conceive of his Twitter feed? Brigid Berlin would do it for him, I bet, or Fred Hughes. And he'd definitely be front and center on TMZ sometimes, being chased down coming out of random NY restaurants. OH ANDY!
just started reading his book - someone posted a link to it for free.
very interesting so far! He loved Bianca J.
[quote]Who are these pieces of shit who want to ban people who have interesting gossip to share? FUCK YOU, ASSHOLES.
[quote]It's astonishing, isn't it? Anyone who has actually had any existence outside of a cubicle is slammed as a fraud, phony, etc.
Couldn't agree more. Longtime DLers know Charlie worked in an NY boutique popular with celebs, and while like everyone he has his own opinions, and can rave on, at least he has had some genuine life experience. Which is more than can be said for the basement dwellers who attack him. And as I've said before: his Walter Chrysler Jnr/Duke of Windsor dish is the gold standard of DL gossip and deserving of Honorary Lifetime Membership!
Would rather read him, even when he rabbits on, than posters like Stephen Light & Dark who simply regurgitate book-sourced material that is tiresomely familiar to all of us who are well read, and/or lived the period.
I endorse also the comments of the earlier poster that some of us have friends who live lives of beyond the comprehension of the snarkers here. eg I have two two guys who maintain several homes on different continents, and mix with the global movers & shakers. One thinks nothing of flying to Africa for the weekend, or flying their landscaper & decorator to Europe, etc etc. But it doesn't carve me up with jealousy, or drive me to snarking. There's some real losers here whose postings show how bitter they are at the hand they've been dealt, and need to pull their heads in. You feel you've been wronged? Well, bitches, given your attitudes, it's clearly your own fucking faults.
R8 and R9 oh fuck off. There was nothing remotely special or icon-worthy about Edie. She was a spoiled trust-fund brat who did nothing of note in her life. She went around wasting her inheritance money by partying, shopping and doing drugs. She wasn't even that pretty.
Late to thread. Andy was doing his first theater production based on my friend before he was shot. Andy 'theoretically' and obsessively in love, his favorite kind, with the young man. Andy, believe it or not, was kind, worked in soup kitchens near St Patricks, was a daily communicant, thoroughly and theoretically homosexual--though he followed his childhood Eastern European Catholicism strictly and without regret or a soupcon of irony. Devoted to his Pennsylvania family and frequently and joyfully spent free time and holidays with them. He was kind, and while careful with money, he was careful to give money to the homeless in order to fulfill the Church's tenet on charity as the greatest commandment.
The priests at St Patrick, but especially the nuns, were treated most charitably and anonymously by Andy, who had an entirely different vocal pitch and speech pattern with his parents and brother and those at St Patricks. The rest was an affectation. The Schnabel film, in which Julian treats himself (Gary Oldman) with fictional reverence, is nonetheless quite good with a surprising performance by David Bowie. And in fact, Schnabel was actually a genuine friend to Andy. Warhol loved sin, loved being around decadence but also was frightened by it and always assumed something absolutely terrifying might happen to him (beyond the shooting) in those cocaine-fueled Studio 54 years. Despite the tabloid exploitation of Andy, which he found wonderful and scary simultaneously, he was home at 10 PM most nights--just after the newpapers filed their final stories of the night. People created a legend for him, but he loved going home to work (after he'd been noticed and gotten his picture twaken, of course!) Not a simpleton, a very smart and man of taste, very sophisticated in his appreciation for classical art. He really saw his art, however, as deliberately gauche and revolutionary--the purpose of which was to tear down the foundation of the very classical art he so adored. But he lived in decadent times and he wished to expose the ugly advertisement for the self that plagued his era.
Oh, and he really respected and admired Ronald Reagan (and, of course, Nancy) and loved to feign political naivete when friends like Schabel and others scored him on that account. Andy was very clever at droll, innocent lines delivered with great timing--allowing those around to interpret irony, though he had none, that was his great irony (and he knew it). So, his love of Reagan could be interpreted as you wished, but he was actually serious.
Agree completely with R251. I've always enjoyed Charlie's posts. Sadly, I'd guess that he has left DL. Don't blame him a bit, with all the bitter misfits clamoring for his head.