Are you offended by the Eric Stonestreet character on Modern Family?
(prompted by the Bret Easton Ellis thread where he says:
Not in the context of what gay means in this culture, where Eric Stonestreet can win an Emmy for playing the most stereotypical queen on TV … and gay people can’t make gay jokes and have to like Modern Family.”)
I watched the first season of Modern Family and he didn't really bother me. I think the fact that he wins Emmys gets under my skin a little though....like the straight people are awarding the silly straight guy playing nelly while overlooking the actual gay one.
Agreed. He doesn't bother me so much on the show (it's a silly show), but it's gross that he gets awards because people think it's such a challenge for a "straight" dude to swish it up. (I put quotes on straight since ES is a 41 year old confirmed bachelor.) And obviously, there's the perception that Jesse Tyler Ferguson isn't acting at all because he really is gay. Ugh.
Love him. He's funny.
Hate him. He's fat.
Theres no way he's straight.
His character is definitely the least interesting of the main characters - and the kids. His character hardly seems able to take care of himself, never mind a kid.
Sorry, but he cracks my shit up. Fess up, he's a cartoon, but everyone of us knows a queen like that.
What r6 said.
WHAT is Brett's problem with "Modern Family"?
Every character on Modern Family is a cartoon. That's what makes the show funny. Don't take it personally, op.
I like Cam just fine. It's Mitchell who ruins the show. And Jay. I don't watch it anymore.
I don't mind him, but the little girl playing his daughter has got to go.
What is with that kid R11? I've only started watching (and even then, it has been sporadic) this year.
Is that fact that she is an unquestionably homely child, a very poor actress and seems touched in the head -- part of the plot?
I go both ways (if you'll excuse the expression), we do all know guys like Cam (and he can be very funny) but I agree with the premise that he seems to be "rewarded" for overcoming the difficulty of a straight actor playing a big fairy.
It's there anything that guy likes?
I think Ty Burrell is really hot and the best actor in the bunch.
Doesn't bother me, and I think he's really funny. I know queens just like that. Why wouldn't they be represented on TV?
The way I took BEE's quote was that he doesn't like it that Stonestreet gets awarded for playing the gay character, not the character itself. And Stonestreet has two Emmys, and Jesse has none, probably because people assume he is playing himself.
BEE's thoughts on gay representation are not always articulate or PC but they are interesting. (For example, he hates Andrew Rannells' gay character on The New Normal and loves his gay character on Girls.). He also started using the term "the Gay Middlebrow" to describe what he didn't like about gay representation which I thought was appropriate. Hollywood makes gayness into a joke to entertain a straight audience, and at the same time gay people are expected to like this kind if representation because it's the only one offered.
I didn't mind Cam in the first season, but he's gotten increasingly prissy since then and it's not really funny anymore - just tired and forced. His character's pathological neediness is also much more annoying.
I only watch MODERN FAMILY for Ty Burrell, Julie Bowen and their kids, who are all genuinely and consistently funny. Ed and Sofia are barely tolerable at this point.
And Ferguson is pretty much playing himself, though I find him more entertaining than Stonestreet.
My partner and I watch the show because of the writing, plots and most of the characterizations, but every episode is punctuated by our saying, in unison, "I hate him," at least 15 times and episode. Actually, we say it for every line this inauthentic, insulting, poorly-drawn asshole speaks.
And once we quit watching the show for a few episodes because we can't stand him. Him and his two homophobic Emmys. But Ed Neill they all loathe.
We don't have many representations on TV so the ones that are out there are scrutinized more heavily.
(And, boy, is HE heavy!)
Seriously, he bugs me sometimes. But all the characters are very broad.
We have as an alternative that sports-loving slob on Happy Endings.
I think once we have more representations out there the Cameron characters are going to be less offensive.
Again, naturally people who will enjoy a clown. But his "clown" is not integrated into the style and character of the show. He delivers a bad stereotype that jars with the "modern family" ethos they push. They're all quirky, but also "real" people. Stonestreet simply is a lousy actor (watch him in anything else) and get rewarded for it, because gays don't matter.
He may be a lousy actor, but boy, he's laughing all the way to the bank -- as is the rest of the cast.
[quote]He may be a lousy actor, but boy, he's laughing all the way to the bank -- as is the rest of the cast.
And he better learn to keep it in the bank because after this he won't get a lot of work. It offends me that a never married 41 year old actor professes to be straight and then says he based his gay character on his Mother. I also found it ridiculous he won an Emmy for his Steppin' Faggot routine over openly gay Chris Colfer brilliantly performing Rose's Turn on "Glee". At least the Golden Globes got it right
I find Eric Stonestreet's character far less offensive of a mass media-disseminated portrayal of a gay man than Bret Easton Ellis.
[quote] Every character on Modern Family is a cartoon.
R24, the familiar kind of pithy "one-word" withholding thing, misses the point that even on The Simpsons - a real cartoon show - the characters are uniform in context and aimed in the same tonal and thematic direction. Stonestreet is offensive not because he plays a silly, aggressively less-than-sensible gay character. He's offensive because his is the only character - a gay one played by a "straight" man - whose manner and core personality grate against the show's consistency.
In other words, Cam would never have attached himself to this phony thing that is unrepresentative of actuality (and I know my share of the spectrum).
If all that's okay with people, you know exactly the type of people with whom it's okay.
Ferguson is much more believable and restrained. The gulf between their acting styles widens- and their lack of chemistry becomes even more and more apparent.
Plus, they are saddled with that terrible actress who plays their daughter. Time to pull yet another Bobby Draper with the character of Lily.
I'm offended by the whole fucking minstrel show.
R25, I don't disagree with your analysis of Cam, but why do you blame him instead of the writers and directors? I see ES playing the material he's given, and doing with it what he can.
It's a weirdly written relationship. Mitchell appears to hate Cam, he rolls his eyes and makes fun of him. His GayFace and GayVoice are more annoying than the Cam character.
I wouldn't last a week with Mitchell, R29.
It's awards season so the cast is busy practicing being total assholes to everyone at the various shows.
I'm not offended by ES's character. I know enough people who act just like him.
I HATE Phil, though. I find Ty Burrell to be obnoxious and irritating. I can't stand to hear his voice overs for FIOS -- You geeeet it. BLECH.
I am offended that Bret Easton Ellis is still alive.
Ty is hilarious. Love him.
People complaining about the Cam character have somehow missed the Gloria character.
There's just something about the show I find off-putting, like they're not really believable or likeable. Yet the show keeps getting accolades and awards while- and forgive me for admitting I watch- Patricia Heaton's show has a better family dynamic and is actually quite funny. (I know it's Patty Heaton but she's a "hate the actress, love the acting" person for me. I just like things she's in.)
R32, Phil's is the only truly bearable modern family, and I love Ty Burrell.
[quote]it ridiculous he won an Emmy for his Steppin' Faggot routine over openly gay Chris Colfer brilliantly performing Rose's Turn on "Glee".
Chris Colfer? Gag. Talk about a gay stereotype.
[quote]I also found it ridiculous he won an Emmy for his Steppin' Faggot routine over openly gay Chris Colfer brilliantly performing Rose's Turn on "Glee".
Yes, let's give an award to a femme boy singing a song written for a middle aged woman. That's progress.
[quote]Yes, let's give an award to a femme boy singing a song written for a middle aged woman. That's progress.
You want progress? This kid has more balls than you ever had and listen to the reaction.
Michael C Hall on Six Feet Under and Matthew Rhys on Brothers and Sisters, who portrayed arguably the most nuanced gay men on primetime tv in the past decade, never received award recognition for their roles (Hall only received one Emmy nomination for David Fisher - one! He didn't even get nominated for the season where he was kidnapped.)
I think outrageously drawn gay characters are probably getting Emmys because people think the actors playing them are "braver."
I don't understand people like R3. Is it mental illness?
[quote]I don't mind him, but the little girl playing his daughter has got to go.
I’ve been saying that ever since she got her first spoken line. It’s like watching Michelle Tanner v2.
Please don’t tell me there are two Lilys as well
[quote] Steppin' Faggot
No one here has ever met ANYONE like the Stonestreet character before??? Really??
Look, it seems like every gay character on TV is a stereotype at this point. But Modern Family was, at one point, trying to cut against the stereotype, by having Stonestreet's character be a former jock who was still into sports. Dropping this aspect of the character has made him incredibly stereotypical, particularly since the mincing minstrel aspect has gone way up. He's got those pinkies in the air 24/7 at this point, and literally seems to be floating on invisible musical notes.
They still do episodes, from time to time, that counter this is clever ways. The episode where Cam's father visits is a great example. The dads fight over which son is the 'wife', and in the end they come to the realization that they're doing this to keep from accepting that their sons are both men and gay. It was clever.
And the Stonestreet character is infinitely less offensive than the New Normal character.
We'll know we've made progress when Justin Bartha and Brandon Routh get to be the couple, and it's not all about having a baby.
[quote]and literally seems to be floating on invisible musical notes.
Despite your misuse of "literally," you made me laugh out loud with this remark.
I cannot figure out why some of you think Brian (I assume you mean Brian) on TNN is offensive. I know 5 guys in real life who look, dress and act just like him. So much that my partner and I look at each other and laugh when a sentence comes out of his mouth that we heard last month from Jerry or Mark, or the outfit matches what Kevin wore to dinner last week. Add to it that from what I have seen, Rannells isn't doing much acting here and I think you are just paranoid about your own limp wrists.
Cam is offensive but I find his daughter Lily even more offensive.
The thing is straight people like Cam. They really like him. He comes off as a very caring decent person. He's more likable than Mitchel. It seems to me that is a positive thing for the gay community as a whole. I think it can change how people think about gay men and I think it's opened the door for more positive gay portrayals on TV that may be more to your liking.
R39, cute, and yes, brave, but a little pitchy.
R45 Why are there so many grammar queens on DL? Serious question.
I agree with R46. There's nothing remotely offensive about Brian's character on The New Normal. He plays funny and smart on the show while David is the straight man(so to speak). That means per episode, there's at least 2 different portrayals of what it means to be or act as a gay man every week. Plus there's no denying Brian and David act like they love each other.
I do think Eric Stonestreet plays his character a little too broad sometimes but again, it's a comedy and he's going for laughs. What I can't figure out is why Cam & Mitch as a couple are so cold to one another. In yesterday's episode of Modern Family, I actually found myself thinking, why do they hate each other?
The Brian character is far more offensive.
It's not like anyone wants to see them all lovey dovey, r51.
I don't think Cam and Mitch squabble any more than any of the other couples on the show. It's a basis for the comedy but also the idea that they love each other even though they have disagreements like all families do.
Yes R53 you kind of do want that. What a lot of people are used to seeing in their entertainment featuring Gay people is for Gay people to either be the villains, the butt of jokes, the martyrs dying of some deathly disease (AIDS Drama) , the drug addict (all the popular indie gay movies), the perverts or the asexual BFF a la Will & Grace. It's a nice change of pace to see a perfectly normal loving gay couple.
I think both TNN and Modern Family attempt that while trying to be Funny. I think Modern Family got the comedy part, but I just don't quite buy the loving couple part.
Cam is more balls to the wall than Mitch, and savors his sexuality. I suspect with a rural upbringing, he felt more alone and singular, but the farm boys aren't coddled in the way Mitchell seems to have been (except for his gayness). Also, below the trilling exterior, Cam is a lot like Mitchell's dad, which would explain M's attraction and his sometimes obvious befuddlement.
R55, I completely disagree. Just because they aren't shown in bed kissing each other, doesn't mean they don't convey "couple". They are affectionate, bicker over silly things, have a child together, and are accepted by Mitchell's family. The other couples on the show are portrayed in exactly the same way, with the exception being that Cam and Mitchell are actually more sympathetic and 'normal' in many ways. Their love for each other seems more 'typical'.
On "New Normal", it's clear that they are playing 'husband' and 'wife'. That's not the case on MF. Though Cam is queenier, Mitchell is hardly butch, and that's been emphasized. They are clearly two gay men together. Not a pseudo husband-wife.
[quote]On "New Normal", it's clear that they are playing 'husband' and 'wife'.
I think they're fixing that, especially in the episode where they both took a shot at stay-at-home dad drill by practicing with their surrogate's daughter.
Cam is the TV character most likely to have engaged in bestiality.
R59...,I hope you're right. We'll see.
R60= Rick Santorum.
I don't agree R58. They're not playing pseudo husband & wife on TNN. They both have high powered professions and they're actually similarly nurturing characters and both want kids (3). Both characters wanted to stay home to take care of the child in the one episode.
Cam & Mitch just seem more mean spirited with their constant bickering. Last episode Cam didn't hesitate to humiliate Mitch at the christening by having him walk up there with the underwear stuck to his butt--that's not good relationship couple behavior. You don't take your dirty laundry outside.
And the other couples may bicker, but there are plenty of scenes where Claire and Phil are affectionate and talk about going off to have sex. The same thing with Jay & Gloria. The Cam & Mitch bickering are not broken up by those little moments of affection. That's why sometimes it looks like they don't even like each other.
Because they're both professionals they're not playing husband and wife?? Sexist much?
You're wrong about MF. Completely. You're basing your reactions on the actors' looks.
Cam = trilling butch
That entire show is populated by slightly over-exaggerated characterizations of people we might know in real life.
Basically, people who have a problem with him in particular are just railing against the stereotypical gay representation on tv -queeny, femme, whatever.
These people actually exist though, and it might be more worth out time to be "offended" at a society in which there is still a hierarchy in terms of what constitutes masculinity.
I don't have time for that sexist, homophobic bullshit man.
He may be a stereotype, but so are other characters on that show. [See: Sofia Vergara].
R64 Then explain how they're playing 'husband' and 'wife'. What wifey things does one character do. I'm betting that you cannot come up with one single thing without sounding sexist. What's your big reveal--is it because one character likes football and the other doesn't--talk about your sexism.
R68...oh dear. You have no clue what I'm getting at, and I don't have the time to educate you.
But I will give you an example. In an early publicity photo for the show (which appeared in Entertainment Weekly after the series had premiered), the cast is shown glancing through a plane of glass (presumably at babies in a Hospital nursery). The Bartha character is all in blue, while Andrew's character is all in pink. What does that signal to YOU, Einstein?
jesus fucking christ, what a bunch of hens.
Would you give it a rest mack?
We all know (and find funny) guys just like "Cam" and even the queen from the New Normal.
Ditto with the relationships: we all know married friends who are like Cam and Mitch...and the same for the "hubby & wife" routine of New Normal.
The problem with you twisted souls on this thread is you're lonely. Get some friends.
Both are gay positive characters.
Now, Lily. Let's call it like it is: that ugly bitch needs to go.
[quote]The Bartha character is all in blue, while Andrew's character is all in pink. What does that signal to YOU, Einstein?
That this is possibly the stupidest thing I've ever read on DL.
I'll just direct you to this article on Rick Santorum who apparently shares your pink phobia.
[quote]Basically, people who have a problem with him in particular are just railing against the stereotypical gay representation on tv -queeny, femme, whatever.
Horseshit. I have ZERO problem with "queeny, femme," as you put it. As said above, I think Kurt Hummel is a great character and real. Stonestreet plays it where Cam can't decide whether to burst into flames or burst into tears. A stereotype that the world believes is who we are.
Yes! we are tired of being represented as gender confused!!!
However stereotypical all of the characters are, they are supposed to make us laugh. Cam and Mitchell are often just annoying more than funny.
The actress who plays their daughter doesn't help. The other characters have kid actors who know what they are doing.
I love that "sports loving slob" as R19 described "Max" on "Happy Endings." Being gay doesn't have to mean being an ultra-thin fashion plate, ostentatiously over-cultured and endlessly fussing over pop-culture or similarly shallow minutia.
I'm not into sports, but I wear sweatpants, hibernate in the winter and am comfortable and open about my sexuality without letting it dominate my persona. Watching "Max" on "Happy Endings" makes me feel like I'm okay just the way I am and not being "fabulous" doesn't mean I'm any less gay.
I hope "Max" fans start watching "Happy Endings" more regularly, playing the episodes on the ABC app on our tablets and computers, and-even better-contacting the network to let them know how much we like the show. Otherwise, I'm afraid it might be in danger of cancellation.
As for "Cam", the formula on "Modern Family" is a tightly wound father, daughter and son are married to, or partnered with, spouses who are the equivalent of the classic sitcom "wacky neighbor" or "out-of-control spouse." Think of the Prichetts as Desi Arnez's and "Gloria", "Phil" and "Cam" (plus the children) as the "Lucy's." It's a funny, successful show-so it obviously appeals to a large number of people.
"The New Normal's" pilot and initial episodes had too many cringe-worthy moments of excessive stereotyping, hostility from Ellen Barkin's character that was too biting and cruel to be acceptable. However, all shows-sitcoms especially need a few episodes, or a whole uneven first season, to "find their groove."
"The New Normal" has done that. I would recommend giving it another chance. It celebrates individuality, portrays people striving to grow as human beings and is laugh-out-loud funny. Most surprisingly, Ellen Barkin has given some of the most touching, emotionally brave performances I have ever seen on television. She deserves the Best Actress in a Comedy Emmy next year.
Brandon Routh's character on "Partners" was a plus for positive gay portrayals and I wish "Partners" had lasted, but the stereotypical character on that show was an embarrassment and just too annoying to be the lead in a television show.
Overall, I'd say this season has been fairly good in the diversity of gay male characters. But, if we lose "Max," the 2012-2013 TV season will most definitely not have a "Happy Ending."
R74, the actor playing Manny makes the troll that plays Lilly look like Streep.
R70...Mary! What fun you must be at parties! Calm down, you're hysterical.
R71...pink-phobia? You're completely clueless, a moron. Seriously.
R75, LOVE your post! Don't quite agree on the New Normal in some respects, though I do agree they've improved the Barkin character and that she's had some good acting moments. But great review from you.
R75 Thank you! It's so nice to get positive feedback for something I wrote and posted on here (DataLounge can be a tough crowd), I really appreciate your kind words.
For the people who hate Cam, I think they hate him because he hits a little too close to home. Looking into a mirror isn't always pleasant. I think Cam and the actor's portrayal is just fine. Some of you really need to stop caring so much what people think.
R81 What does PPSM 2.0 mean? I don't read this site daily.
But I miss the first actress who played Lily. Her silence spoke volumes.
I can't stand Bret Easton Ellis, but he has a point here. First gay people seem so grateful to have confirmed straights play them heaping undeserved praise on them. And when it happens it's taken as a challenge and praised to the heavens. The characters are always stereotypical fems. This while tptb insist an openly gay man can't be a genuine romantic lead, while straight guys take all the gay roles as Oscar bait spending the promotional tour affirming their hetero cred and some go out of their way to show how uncomfortable they were and how excruciatingly bad kissing another guy is.
Just save us the tedium of these denials and cast openly gay actors.
So no one here has heard of Omar from the WIre? He is Obama's fave character and many straight guys are a fan of him.
He's one of the best gay character of all time.
Mitchell and Cam are great. I don't think their characters act gay enough.
The Manny character is gayer than either Cam or Mitch, despite he is supposed to be girl-crazy.
Can't watch it. Retarded, one-dimensional characters. And the gay couple (two bottoms, riiight) is always uptight and bickering.
I guess that's why the Million Mommies tolerate it: the homos are miserable.
Not at all.
I really enjoy the show, but I don't understand why Cam and Mitchell are together. They undermine each other constantly, and they don't seem to like or respect each other. The past season or so, all they do is bicker. The other couples show much more affection to each other.
I don't find Stonestreet's character offensive, but I find his two Emmys offensive. He is not such a great actor. All of the other men on the show are more deserving.
Does anyone else think both Lilys have looked biracial? The current one is a HORRIBLE actress. It's hard to believe she already has a SAG award for Best Ensemble.
TV will never show a gay couple on par with the straight ones, so I don't see the use in questioning why the other couples show much more affection to each other.
I make more scratch from my shitty line readings than the whole lot of you put together. So suck it, bitches.
R91, biracial what?
When it comes to showing affection in a comedy show I think The New Normal comes pretty close to how a straight couple would be shown. But with the ratings they've been getting lately who knows how long it'll last.
On a separate note, I heard about a South American show (I forgot which country) that would have a similar theme to the New Normal, about a couple having a baby. They said they came up with their show before The New Normal was on the air. But one of the differences would be that this show plans to show nudity and the couple having sex.
Lily looks like she's half-Asian, half-Caucasian. And some googling shows it's probably true. Her mother is Korean-American, and her father looks very white.
No reason why a Vietnamese orphan couldn't be biracial, but I find it weird that they don't make any reference to the possibility on the show.
R95, again, that's because they've been subjectively framed as 'husband/wife', not as two husbands.
R97 You've yet to explain what the fuck that even means. They kiss each other and hug each other--is that some purely heterosexual phenomena now. showing affection is now some kind of straight privilege that I've never heard of.
Your world is pretty jaded or you must live some pretty lonely life like the other poster speculated for you to think acting like a loving couple means acting like 'husband and wife.' I'm betting you've never been in any kind of relationship before.
yes, everyone can make fun of a gay and act outrageous. He really is an attention whore. If someone said you act like a flaming queen and get paid for it ,,,you would too. He did because he will do anything to get a job...they are lucky the other talent carried the show for him to spot light. I know his sister and she told me once about a gay brother,,,strange now he isnt,,,hmmm, I wonder if ten years from now ES comes out...time will tell.
Eric makes the show and the red head is not funny at all
I initially enjoyed Cam and Mitchell, but this season and last they became very annoying. Cam has become very whiny and needs Mitchell to indulge his every whim. Mitchell also seems to be increasingly feminine in his portrayal.
On another note, Eric Stonestreet never pinged for me until a recent interview he gave. At that point he struck me as not so different from the character he portrays.
Wasn't Stonestreet dating Charlize? Or was that Renner?
I think he is hilarious. I hightly doubt he was with Charlize. He may have been with Renner.
He was with Charlize. There were threads and pictures.
[quote] a Steppin' Faggot.
[quote] What's that?
A dancing queen.
Probably just friends R104. Although, nothing would surprise me.
R98= has never read a book in his life.
After having seen the latest episode of Modern Family, Cam(Eric Stonestreet) is definitely a drama queen.And the show is getting less intesting. Maybe next season should be the last season of the show.
Eric Stonestreet is a fairly good actor. Cam Tucker in Modern Family is just a major pain in the ass, but that's just my personal opinion. I can't stand his character at all, not because he plays a gay character, but his personality in general is drama queen.
I don't see any entertainment from him or any value at all. Manny is pretty much Cam but as a young teenager instead. So we have two drama queens? That's horribly annoying but Manny is more entertaining than Cam.
I just can't stand Cam in the show. Seriously, I just shake with rage every time I see him because it's the same old tired crap of being the center of attention.
Get some help, R109, because it's not that serious.
All Mitchell does is roll his eyes behind Cam's back and make fun of him. The episode that his ex came back a d everyone fawned over him was sickening. He's not a nice character, Cam is much more likeable.
[quote]I just can't stand Cam in the show. Seriously, I just shake with rage every time I see him
I'd stop watching. Actually, I have stopped watching.
I love Manny and Lily is getting better all the time. Everyone on the show is a stereotype. The important message is that no matter how annoying they are and they are unbearably annoying, they still tolerate and accept each other.
He sweats too much during interviews.
He can't help if he sweats, he's fat. Who are we talking about?
For a fat girl she doesn't sweat much
Eric Stonestreet is an ally!
yes r117...he purposely never dates women just to show that he is down with the gays!
I'm a chubby chaser, he could get down with me.
I think most people think Cam is lovable and creative and his heart is in the right place even if his ego is overblown. Mitch is controlling and bitchier and is always finding fault. Of course, that is a direct result of his upbringing. His sister has similar qualities. But she comes off as more sympathetic.
Everyone on that show is a sitcom stereotype. The hot tamale Latina, gruff grandpa, neurotic housewife, dumb husband, prissy gays. Even the kids, slutty, brainy sisters and dumb little brother. The only original character is Manny.
And the actor who plays Manny is probably the most annoying asshole on TV. Aside from that horrid Asian girl who plays Lily.
The producer's house in Malibu is falling into the ocean. (hee hee)
I don't like it. "I'm playing a gay guy so I'm gonna talk soft and have constantly limp wrists." talk abou unoriginal, besides being stereotypical. Give him an Emmy and give me a break.
Josh Gad would have been better. He turned it down.
I don't buy the character played by Eric Stonestreet, therefore I don't watch this program. I like the little red headed guy, he seems to be for-teal but his chubby partner doesn't fit. Why would a successful lawyer pair up with an over weight, somewhat effeminate guy. It just doesn't make sense and is seldom seen our world of gay couples. This show is too convoluted and requires one to have watched it religiously in order to understand each weeks rendering. To me, that's a soap opera, no thanks. All the hispanic bull doesn't sit well with me either. It's all seems so message specific. This program is just like all the commercials showing interracial situations that I find unattractive just to watch. I know some people make these choices and I wouldn't go out of my way to make them feel uncomfortable, but I still don't like their choice especially if there are resulting children. It's all too contrived for my tastes.