Do you believe in God?

Do you believe in a Judeo-Christian God? Do you believe in any God? Or a superior being? Or something spiritual at all? Does your sexual orientation influence your belief? Why? As a civilization do we need to believe in a God to have values or morals or fears. Would right and wrong exist without a spiritual viewpoint. I heard Bishop Gene Robinson speaking on Fresh Air on NPR. I was very moved by his faith. I had to say that I have never really believed in God in the way he believes in God. Always thought if there was a God he had his back turned to me. But I have to admit my values and morals,and some of my fears, are a product of my Catholic upbringing. Sometimes that is a good thing, but mostly it weighs me down.

Anonymous
• I'm the ultimate, uber-agnostic in this sense: I don't care in the slightest whether or not there's a God. That's something that can never be empirically, scientifically proven or disproven to my satisfaction. Ergo, there is no logical reason for me to worry about the subject anyway. Even if there is a god, he'll exist whether I give a fuck or not. And if there isn't a god.... well, then I didn't waste my time stressing about it anyway. I'm simply more concerned about the corporeal life we know for a fact we DO have.

• Cram it, churchy.

• I do not. I believe in existence, since it is all I seem to know (epistemological skeptic here). Also, the notion of 'superiority' is very medieval to me.

• The question "Do you believe in God" is too loaded a question because it presupposes that God is real. I think a better way of asking would be: "Do you or do you not believe in something which can't be proven?"

• Yes

• I do believe in God or a superior being.

• God is imaginary. Try to be nice to other people and help those in need. It's REALLY not that hard, and I need no imaginary man in the sky to help me figure it out.

• No

• Well, I had a real famous momma

  Lizscha

• No. Atheist here. R1 is playing semantic games, freighting the word "proof" with a sense it has never had in language, and has nothing to add to the discussion.

• God, no. Oops.

• Yes

• And it's pretty obvious that gods were invented to explain a universe that seemed entirely inexplicable to earlier civilizations. We no longer need creation myths about mud, ribs and snakes to explain our origins. Time to grow up.

• No, I don't believe in "God." If there were really a god, he would have made himself known to me personally, rather than hope somebody else gets around to telling me about him...especially if he requires that I love and accept him before I can go to heaven. Can you imagine having a child that you would send to hell if he didn't love you, but you gave him away at birth and left it up to him to find his way back to you somehow, some way, some day? I ain't buying it. It's sad to not have a God, but that's reality.

• Yes, I do believe in God.

• I am an agnostic atheist. In my head, I'm pretty sure that is not a God, but I won't say it out loud, just in case.

• I think you should go ahead and say it, r16.

• Ditto, r1. My sexuality has little to do with any of my life's thinking, other than whom I am attracted to in an intimate way.

  Reasonable%20Person

• Unquestioning love from a father who makes the house rules so open to interpretation? My father could be Jesus or Allah or Yahweh. I don't know who to obey without getting grounded.

• Yes. & God believes in me. Believing in God proves he exists

• I'm always amused when people purport to talk about God. If God existed, wouldn't the very label of 'God' be a limitation to its supposed transcendence? I don't believe in an Abrahamic God. I believe in possibility and the multiverse, but that is backed up by science.

• R10, sneering, paranoid, arrogant, fanatical atheists like you - who accuse me of being dishonest simply because I don't give a fuck about the subject of a god - are just as arrogant and fanatical to me as any bible-thumping Christian retard-neanderthal. Both you and religious idiots are too arrogant & egotistical to admit the obvious: nobody knows and nobody can ever possibly know what - if anything - exists beyond our physical universe. Even Einstein himself wasn't quite sure about it and he was history's most brilliant recorded human being. And he was most certainly agnostic like me. Look it up if you don't believe me.

• Blah blah blah. Since when should we take Einstein's word for anything? He was wrong about quantum theory, and frankly, his personal grooming left a lot to be desired. I am not arrogant. I am, however, not obsessed with putting down people who are right to curry favor with people who are wrong, which is apparently your bread and butter R22.

• Religion always brings out the ugly...why?

• YES!!!

• Faith in prayer = adult version of letters to Santa

• No, you liar R23, YOU are the one who put me down first because you are so narrow-minded, arrogant, and fanatical in your atheism, let's go over the facts for a mental midget like your degenerate self: YOU accused ME of being a liar because I stated that I simply don't give a shit whether there's a god or not. That's why I'm exposing you for the fanatical, lying, arrogant, ultra-paranoid pompous pile of human shit you are, you sniveling gutter rat. Filth. Scumbucket testament to EVERY FUCKING THING MANKIND HAS EVER DONE WRONG, YOU SLITHERING, NIGHTCRAWLING IMITATION OF HUMAN LIFE!!!! Pig. YOU ARE NO DIFFERENT FROM A BIBLE-THUMPER AND ARE TOO RETARDED TO REALIZE THIS, AND YOU'RE JUST AS SELF-RIGHTEOUS, PARANOID AND WILLING TO ATTACK ANYONE WHO DOESN'T THINK 100% THE SAME AS YOU, YOU FUCKING CUNTBAG PIECE OF MUMMIFIED SEWER RESIDUE!!! YOU MEANINGLESS LITTLE DROP OF ANAL BLOOD WASHING DOWN A SAN QUENTIN SHOWER!!! JUST LIKE THE BIBLE-THUMPERS WE BOTH REVILE!!! Faggot (I'm gay myself, I'm allowed to use that term.).

• No. I was brainwashed to believe and it was a tough deprogramming but I eventually did it. Once you realize that your so called "faith" is based only on what your parents/church taught you, you realize it's a crock. If you were born in India, you'd be Hindu. If you were born in Iran, you'd be Muslim. But because the predominate religion in the part of the world you live in happens to be Christian, so are you. It's all a bunch of hooey. And people need to grow the hell up and realize this.

• (I'm gay myself, I'm allowed to use that term.). No, you're not.

• Jesus, Maria, y Jose r27. I hope you have some Ativan, Xanax, or copious amounts of pot to help get your panties unwound.

• I'm not upset, R30, I just deal with pompous, arrogant, narrow-minded idiots (of ANY ideology) like that as brutally as I believe they should be dealt with. To be honest, I feel perfectly fine. But it's a fact of human nature that certain arrogant, pompous assholes do, in fact, deserve my elaborate verbal abuse and more. Look, if you read through this thread, you'll see that arrogant asshole verbally ATTACKED ME FIRST because I'm agnostic and not a hard-core-flaming atheist fanatic this barely-sentient gutter rat of a poster was. He mindlessly attacked me for simply not caring about the God-subject in the first place. That's why I verbally abused this arrogant, phony, pompous little stinking cameo of humanity like I do.

• The issue of proof is an important one. People claim that since you can't prove or disprove the existence of God then you shouldn't be making claims one way or the other. I think this is lazy thinking - much of our understanding requires deduction based on what's observable. It's only really mathematics that can be considered provable. You can deduce (with almost absolute certainty, in my opinion) that there is no Christian God. The only way the Christian God is known is through the Bible (there is no other source) and an objective or rational consideration of the Bible finds it severely lacking. When you throw in our scientific understanding of the universe, history, archaeology, psychology and everything else we know about humanity, it becomes even more likely that the Christian God does not exist. I was raised a Catholic but remember questioning it very early on (well before I had any concept of being gay). It never made sense to me that the Christians were right but the Ancient Egyptians or Greeks were wrong. It also never made sense that God would appear, talk to people and order people around all the time in the Biblical days but he's now entirely and completely unobservable. How convenient! It's much harder to deny the existence of a god or superior being. But I think the universe doesn't need a superior being to exist, and I think it's unlikely that there's any god. I guess I could be described as a "militant atheist" because I struggle with the fact that so many people are prepared to believe in something that just isn't logical or rational, and so dangerous to global stability. But as I get older I'm starting to learn that some people "need" to have something to believe in. I just wish they'd believe in it and not use their beliefs to influence public policy.

• I don't believe in God but I believe in guardian angels or SOMETHING that gives you a hand but can't be explained. Most people call it God...I don't know what it is. My first thought is, maybe ancesters...

• Shouldn't the question be "do you believe in A god"? "Do you believe in God" presupposes that there is a specific thing in which to believe or not.

• [quote]nobody knows and nobody can ever possibly know what - if anything - exists beyond our physical universe. Even Einstein himself wasn't quite sure Saying "There may be things in the universe we don't understand" is about as far from "There's an invisible man in the sky that made people out of ribs and hates the gay" [fill in the blank with the attributes of alleged sky-creature: loves me, will see me when I die, wants women to wear burkhas etc etc etc] as you can get, but for some reason most religitards think they're the same thing.

• r33, how do you explain all the good people of faith that don't get helping hands? The ones who die tragic deaths or the ones who are starving in other countries? Their faith is probably stronger than yours. Are you just that special?

• The guardian angels hate Rwandans?

• Sky Faerie Worshipers, they are destroying the world.

• Yes, I believe that God exists and I believe that He rewards those who diligently seek Him. I am not ashamed to confess my faith in God in any forum. The God in whom I believe is the One who created the Earth and the whole universe. He was revealed to mankind through the writings of Moses, called The Law, and by the Prophets to the Biblical Nation of Israel. The teachings of the Law and the Prophets were fulfilled in the birth, life, ministry, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus of Nazareth. My life in Christ has been very difficult because I am homosexual, a human condition which I did not choose and can not change. I was taught that new birth would result in a miraculous change from sinful homosexual nature to a righteous heterosexual nature, and this change did not happen. I will trust God nonetheless. I have found most Christians to be lying hypocrites, and this is especially true of the leadership or ministers. Nevertheless, I will trust the Lord, Jesus of Nazareth even though I can not trust the humans who have set themselves up to purportedly represent him in an effort to take money under false pretenses. In summation, I trust God, but I do not trust preachers or man-made religious organizations.

• Yes. It makes no sense, it's primitive, but there's still a place for that outside the world of my mind.

• No

• No. Most of these beliefs--a loving god, angels, souls, heaven, miracles, etc.--are believed by people not based on some abundance of evidence, but merely because they want so badly for them to be true. This is why most "spiritual" or religious people can so readily say empty things like "god IS love" with straight faces. It's childish self-help pap, with a heavy dollop of death anxiety to boot.

• Third generation atheist. I'm glad I didn't have to un-program myself from that nonsense.

  Ciaran

• R39, is there a reason that you so wholeheartedly accept Jesus as your savior, but entirely reject the teachings of Mohammad? Isn't it entirely possible that God (or Allah) decided that Christianity wasn't what He intended, and thus decided to reveal the truth to a man in a cave in the Arabian peninsula?

• r31 -- whether you believe, don't believe or doubt, verbal abuse is not part civil discourse - please don't return until after you have upped your meds.

• I don't know and I don't care. If I was to find out definitively God existed it would not change how I live my life. My sexuality had nothing to do with it. A person who needs the promise of an after life in order to be motivated to treat others with respect is no better than a sociopath.

• Yes, I believe in a greater, unknown sense of the Divine. I am a Quaker (and I am a doctoral student in evolutionary anthropology, so believe when I say I am a minority amongst atheists in my department).

  e%20a%20g%20s

• I'm not trying to be an ass, R47, but can you define 'divine' for us? I'm just curious to see what you mean by that term.

• [quote]I don't care in the slightest whether or not there's a God You will when he returns.

• I suppose I mean my own awareness of something holy and bigger than just human beings that predates the Big Bang. I think it runs through all organic life and possibly non-life as well. I don't think the Divine "causes" things in this known dimension of ours - but I suppose it could; who knows? Basically I am a sort of pagan-with-a-small-p agnostic-ish Quaker (Quakers believe that the Divine is in everyone, and I tend to agree).

  e%20a%20g%20s

• Hell no, I'm not that stupid. And if there is a God, he's a cunt.

• Thanks, R50. Now I want to know what is meant by 'holy', but your equivalence of panentheism and divinity clarified a lot.

  R48

• I'm an agnostic, and don't rule out the existence of a Creator. What is the Big Bang, but the moment of creation? So there may be a God, or something we can call a God. Which begs the question... is this God good? Creation brought mass, gravity, and energy into the universe, but it did not bring justice, altruism, lovingkindness, or the relief of suffering as part of the natural order of things. Mankind had to invent those, not that we did a great job of any of them.

• Thank you, R48! I just looked panentheism and that is pretty much what I am. I have never seen that concept really articulated before - embarrassingly, I guess I just supposed people were misspelling "pantheism". Holiness for me is maybe a state of being wrapped in the Divine (emanating it?). It may well be a relic from my Catholic upbringing and I cannot define it, but I know it when I see it, whether it's an empty forest or genuine emotion. I think it has something to do with truth and/or authenticity. Edna St. Vincent Millay says is well in the eighth sonnet here.

  http://www.violafair.com/poetry/millay/millayhuntsman4.htm

  e%20a%20g%20s

• Here goes: Do you believe in a Judeo-Christian God? No I don't. There is no god, heaven or hell. Do you believe in any God? Or a superior being? Or something spiritual at all? None of the above Does your sexual orientation influence your belief? Why? No it doesn't. I knew I didn't believe in any deity before I knew I was gay.

  LuciferTheLightBringer

• That's fascinating, R50/R54. I'm an atheist myself, but your focus on panentheism - glad I could help with the term - and authenticity at least makes a religious or spiritual outlook comprehensible to me.

  R48

• I doubt there is a superior being. Darwin explained it all in a very logic way. There is evidence in evolution, there is no evidence in God.

  anonymous

• Thank you too, R48! Most of the nicest people I know are atheists or agnostics.

• Hell no.

• I most certainly do not believe in any concept of a god. No, my sexuality doesn't influence that. From my earliest childhood memories of something like a god concept presented by others in the world around me, my only thoughts were that it couldn't possibly be true. With a little more maturity, I have only thought that religion was a some kind of comfort to people who needed it, and so they twist their logic and interpretation of the life around them to fit the hole they have in their psyches.

• I am a Christian who believes in the Bible as the inerrant Word of God. My beliefs parallel the Nicene Creed, or the fundamental essential Christian beliefs through the ages. I am same-sex oriented, but celibate, and my sexual orientation does not affect my faith in Christ, nor should anything else because Christ should be supreme over all things in the believer's life and heart.

• R61 is nuts. You belong in a straight jacket.

• GOD = FRAU

• R61 = Adoption Agency

  JC

• Yes, I do believe in some higher being, someone who looks out for me, guides me, protects my ancestors whom I hope to meet when I die. However, although morality and moral values are based on the Judaeo-Christian tradition, many Humanists, atheists and just good people could point out that it is 'civilisation' itself - brought about through science, knowledge, progress and political and philosophical enlightenment, for example, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (adopted and accepted by > 150 countries in the world) – that provides the tenets of a modern morality, what's right and wrong, etc...

  Bo

• R62 is a bastard. R61 has his beliefs, and you have yours (or, apparently, not). Grow up.

• Religion brings out the best in people!

• I believe. I don't know completely or understand fully every possible thing there is to know about science and technology, but I readily accept them as real. I have a similar willingness to accept religion. To me, there is sufficient evidence of God from nature, history, and people's personal attestations, so that the onus is on atheists to disapprove the existence of God. That's my story and I'm sticking with it. No arguing.

• Higher being - no Higher force - maybe I believe there are forces greater than us, nature, science has the best explanations so far because it is allowed to change. Religion is too rigid.

• I can't think of any logical reason to, so no.

  Anomynous%20

• [quote]I can't think of any logical reason to, so no. You have breath in your body.

• For me, God is a force for good I find within myself. Although not traditinally or institutionally religious, I pray to God for strength all the time. I also believe that people are perfectly capable of being and doing good without believing in a god. The God of my imagination loves all creatures, humans, animals, all ethnicities, religions, and sexual persuasions. My experience with Christianity and other organized religions, however, has shown me that religion can make people really mean. Sadly, this happened in my own family where a fundamentalist grandmother emotionally abused my dear mother, assaulting her with that good old time religion. My God is love, and my love goes out to all things (except selected right wingers) through that belief. Oh hell, I love them too, imperfect sinners that they are. But I don't love murderers or bigots or other cruel people. My love is conditional after all.

  Holy smoke!

• What I always found funny and strange about the Bible is that apparently God was always speaking to these people in the Old Testament, giving them direct orders (like go burn your kid to prove you love me)and they communicated directly one on one with 'God'; so how come he stopped doing that? That is why I think it is a bunch of poppycock; did God just figure he had visited earth enough? I then came to the conclusion that the Bible is merely Jewish mythology which actually does resemble Greek and Roman mythology.

  Anonymous

• R71 you're jumping to a conclusion, or begging the question. It's illogical.

  R70

• Oh my, #27. Take a Midol. ::rolly-eye::

  Miss Nancy

• Yes, Yes, and YES

• Well 73, perhaps God got bored on Earth and is now ministering to Jupiterians or begatting Messiahs on Mars.

• I can't see how anyone can look around at the Earth in all its majestic glory and not believe that there is a God. The late singer Peter Steele from the band Type O Negative, who was a known atheist, said it best... [italic]"...when you start to think about death, you start to think about what’s after it. And then you start hoping there is a God. For me, it’s a frightening thought to go nowhere. I also can’t believe that people like Stalin and Hitler are gonna go to the same place as Mother Teresa."[/italic]

• Interesting logic, r20. No. I don't believe in God. Don't think I ever have. I don't believe in heaven or hell. I think you just die when you die. I don't dislike religious people. I just hate the zealots who impose their own "values" and "morals" on others. Religious zealots who want to dictate whether a person can have access to contraceptives or abortions. Go about your own beliefs and leave other people alone.

• Yes, I do. Fundamentalists and atheists exhibit similar rigid thinking.

  evolved

• " I LAP UP MICHELE BACHMANN'S QWEEF SPLATTER! "

  r78

• [quote]I can't see how anyone can look around at the Earth in all its majestic glory and not believe that there is a God. Maybe because we can't help but notice that the same earth also has disease, famines and natural disasters that wipe out countless innocent people.

• No i'm agnostic. But I think there were once "gods" with a little "g". In that I believe the planet was seeded, and then they went away, leaving us poor monkeys on our own.

• Such a small-minded way of thinking, R82.

• [quote]I can't see how anyone can look around at the Earth in all its majestic glory and not believe that there is a God. That's because you have no imagination.

• You're right on one hand, R85. God is not imagination.

• Depends on how you define god. Are there other worldly beings? Yes, I believe that because of a life time of proof... tangible proof. It's too freaky to explain and hard to believe. I don't believe there is one all mighty ever seeing deity, no.

• Yes I do.

• [quote] I can't see how anyone can look around at the Earth in all its majestic glory and not believe that there is a God. That proves nothing. Ancient peoples worshipped the Sun because they were ignorant of science and astronomy. We understand that the sun is a star and not a god and worshipping it seems backwards now. The Earth and nature is indeed complex, and it's easier to pass it all off with a creation explanation than to understand the more difficult science of it all. But which is the more reliable road to the truth? Learning the sciences and building on knowledge? Or accepting folklore and gut feelings for your "truth"?

  R70%20and%20r74

• The whole God as a force for good is ridiculous. My morality is not derived from religion, it is derived from experience.

  LuciferTheLightBringer

• How can someone be without faith in a higher being? The audacity for someone to think that we are alone without someone who created us and is watching over us.

• "I can't see how anyone can look around at the Earth in all its majestic glory and not believe that there is a God." I look at all the majestic glory of the Earth and I love it, but I don't see it as being created for someone - either for the creator or any chosen species. All those wonderful things exist for their own sake, not for us or an overseer.

• Actually, it is the agnostics who are exhibiting childish and rigid thinking. Their standard of proof is that since you can never know anything, then you can not know whether or not there is a God, which is true about anything. You can't know that you're sitting on a chair right this moment for certain. You could be in a sensory deprivation pod having your brain fooled into thinking it. This thinking creates a false equivalence between people who say the evidence is abundant and clear there is no God, and those who say there is a God on whom the entire burden of proof should rest. Furthermore, those who say there is a God have been taught what God is by others. None has come to an independent conception of a deity or attempted to define God in a new way. And that means belief in God also implies belief that other people know more than you about God. It is precisely this absurd belief which the agnostic is flattering without logic or reason.

• Who knew Tim Tebow was posting on DL? You're making me gag, Tebow @91.

• R91, you're a fool.

  Anomynous%20

• Noah's Ark = bullshit.

• r91 needs to feel that someone else is in control of his life. Sorry dude, most of us get over that need once we graduate high school. There is no big daddy in the sky controlling your destiny. There is no sky fairy that loves you. There is no afterlife.This is your one shot so grow up, take some responsibility for your life and quit thinking magical thoughts.

• I'm believe in God, to me there's no way all of this just popped up out of nowhere then through billions of years we conveniently have a planet perfect for sustaining life.

• It annoys me when people try to equate atheists with fundamentalists, suggesting that both exhibit rigid thinking. Most atheists have abandoned an earlier religion imposed on us by others, which is the opposite of rigid thinking. There may be some atheists who abandoned their faith because of their personal experiences with religion or with the way traditional religions view sexuality, but to me it seems like most of these people look for progressive churches rather than abandoning it altogether. Atheists become atheists because we have open minds and critique what we've been told. We base our views on logic, rational thinking and evidence. I guarantee that if tangible evidence for the existence of God presented itself, atheists wouldn't act in the same way that fundamentalists do when science revealed that the world is over 6000 years old.

• Yes I do, OP. Do not believe in Hell and the Devil, and certainly don't believe a lot of Judeo-Christian bullshit. But I definitely believe in God.

• "The audacity for someone to think that we are alone without someone who created us and is watching over us." I really think that a lot of religious feeling is derived from the emotional experiences of early childhood. That's when our creators (or parents) constantly watch over us, seem omnipotent and omnesicient, teach and advise us, punish us when we're bad and reward us when we're good. That's how many people describe their relationship with God, as a small child describing a parent. Again, if there is God as a creator, that does not mean that God fulfills a parental role, IMHO that is something from our own psyches.

• I stand by my statement. Fundamentalists and atheists are equally rigid in their thinking and convictions and their presentation of them. I am far from religious, but I was raised very much so. I am logical and rational about most things. My beautiful love sometimes goes to church and sometimes I go with him. I believe in god. There is a reason why I did not compare deeply convicted people to agnostics, or esoteric god exists because of the rhythm of nature and life people to Catholics. Atheists have a theology unto themselves, unless they are throwing around the word for effect. Atheists tend to put too much effort into claiming and proving there is nothing more than logic, rational thinking and science. A ferverous amount of energy betrays their "rational" stance. They often prove to be more intellectually rigid and more emotionally clingy to their beliefs than the most determined church goer. This is the way it goes. It is all about meaning. Same thing, different dogma. Call yourself something different, a non-believer would do, but those who favour the term and label atheist usually have things they too cannot reconcile without very specific belief systems which they cannot vary from once formulated. It is the labour of logic. It too will not keep you alive or safe or help you love, anymore than praying will. Pick your god. Love is what we are here for - to learn to give and receive freely. Spiritually speaking. Don't have to love everyone, hell no. Logic.

  mutually%20exclusive%20%3A%29

• no

• [quote] My beautiful love sometimes goes to church and sometimes I go with him. Pass me a trash can, I'm gonna be sick.

• There is nothing more than science. Religion and spirituality exist because we've happened to have evolved to a degree of intelligence in a universe that doesn't need us, and the reality of our finite existence isn't a nice thing to contemplate. We all want love, mercy, purpose - all the things the laws of physics don't provide. I'm just happy I'm here to go along for the ride, learn as much as I can and make the world a better place for those lucky enough to enjoy the ride when I'm gone. The fourteen billion years before my birth didn't trouble me, so I doubt the billions of years after me will. Having said that, I'd be a lot less fervent with my atheism if I didn't see so much awfulness in the world done in the name of religion. Here wel all are, 4 billion years into the life of the planet and people are killed and mistreated in the name of something whose existence is infinitesimally unlikely.

• God doesn't exist. Fabricated by man. End of story.

• R105 You proved my point, with gentle grandiosity. God bless you. R104 The man I love is beautiful. Spiritual. Black. We are married and happy. Gay couple. Evolved. What makes you feel sick ? Why do fags insist on churches marrying them if they are all non-believers?

  always%20room%20for%20one%20more%20hypocrite

• You don't need to be particularly fervent in your attachment to logic, rational thinking or science to reject the notion of God. A passing interest is more than enough.

• I would have considered a ride on the hypocrisy bus, but it appears you've taken the last seat.

  Yes%2C%20very%20evolved.

• Why are atheists so threatened by gays of faith?

• [quote] The man I love is beautiful. Spiritual. Black. We are married and happy. Gay couple. Evolved. I loved Al Lipschitz more than I can possibly say. He was a real artistic guy... sensitive... a painter. Black. Evolved.

• Because gays are so rational and logical, and ruled by science I gather. Or just very easily threatened when not fully embraced ? Not good at intellectual compromise? Unforgiving of their families and past? Mostly I think it because they are afraid. Gays are mostly non-everything. Like I said, a gay atheist is as rigid and judgmental as any fundamentalist and just as frightened of the alternatives.

  evolution

• So R112 why do you get to be the special case? Might it be because you aren't gay, and are actually a frau? If not then you're just a self-loathing cunt.

• God is part of a religious belief and religion is a mind manipulating drug clerics use to take advantage of weak minded people (their money, their workforce, using them as disposable pawns in a scheme, etc.). Only weak minded adults need an outside source to tell them what their purpose is, what to do, and how they should live their lives. And in return pay a heavy price for it.

• r112, [quote]Like I said, a gay atheist is as rigid and judgmental as any fundamentalist and just as frightened of the alternatives. Oh really? Now refresh my memory. When was the last Atheist crusade where religious people were murdered for their beliefs and when did one blow up a marketplace, government building, or church? Atheists reject FOR THEMSELVES the concept of religious belief and have no fear to come out as Atheists. If you consider that rigid and judgemental then you sure have a different definition of what rigid and judgemental means than I have.

• I want to believe there's a loving creator greater than ourselves that want's only the best for us but I just don't know.

• R115 has an excellent point. Let the religious people here list the time when atheists conducted crusades to destroy non-believers. The 'atheists are just as bad as the religious' troll is flailing.

• No. I'm an atheist. I opted out of the state church two years ago. It's the best decision I ever made.

• R1: agreed.

• I always sort of believed. When I was 38, a series of terrible things happened and I needed to believe. I sought god out and he responded in spectacular ways, or so it seemed to me, and my non religious family. I am smart enough to realize that it could all be coincidence but it felt like miracles occurred. I am prone to magical thinking but nowadays it seems that such magical thinking saved me from imminent destruction. I simply was forced to realize how powerless I was, and I turned to god and he showed up. I didn't see him or anything, or have any visions, and I didn't convert to any religion. I still don't even go to synogogue.I'm sure I'll be mocked here but that's ok. I still struggle with all the angles i.e what about rwanda, the holocaust etc. Why would I be so "special" that he might help me? I struggle with all of it and am not firmly confident in him(or her whatever)but I know that the last few years have given me a sense that there is indeed a force of good in the universe that sometimes sets things right. I hope I'm right.

  magical%20thinking%20minnie

• It happens in discussions with many people of faith (not just the gay ones) - Why are you so threatened by my faith? What are you afraid of? Why are you so arrogant? And so it goes. We're not the ones who are afraid. We're not the ones who live in fear that one day we'll actually stop and think for a fraction of a second and realise in our heart of hearts that everything we believe is a giant con. We're told there's no such thing as a free lunch, nothing is too good to be true... And yet God delivers everything. A chance to avoid death. A chance to see our loved ones again. A chance to live FOR ETERNITY in a state of pure bliss. Well, how fucking convenient? (Oh, and can we have some money??) People who don't want to further the debate and instead suggest that we're fearful, or rigid or as bad as fundamentalists can't handle the fact that what we say makes sense.

• Sorry R102, Atheists do not have a manifesto

• I have some faith. Atheists get on my nerves because they like to make it seem as if it is some sign of stupidity to have faith. It is not. I am smart and so were many who had belief or faith or didn't feel the need for the Atheist label. Faith keeps me going. Otherwise, I would find life intolerable. Why begrudge me my delusions, if they are indeed delusions. I don't go for organized religion. I just need to believe there is some force that rewards good and punishes evil. If I were to feel sure there were not I would jump off a bridge and break my momma's heart.

  totally%20okay%20with%20being%20called%20deluded

• I was gonna sorta write some long winded reply, but now I can't be arsed. I'm just so bored by the whole thing. Believe what you want, don't believe what you want, I just don't care anymore.

• I used to, when I was young, an emotional mess, and needed to believe someone or something actually cared about me. Christians mostly muddied my path to recovery.

  athiest

• No. Like many people here, I dont know if there is a god and I really dont care. Its possible there is something out there beyond what we can comprehend, but it has really no impact on my life. I certainly dont believe in the god of the Bible. That character is a petty, jealous, insecure bully who thinks nothing of killing countless innocent people just because someone was not properly kissing his ass. That's not a god, that's a sociopath.

• If there is an all powerful God...he's doing an extremely bad job. Hope my Mom didn't hear that.

• WHY WON'T GOD HEAL AMPUTEES? Is God real, or is he imaginary? It is one of the most important questions you can ask yourself. If God is real and if God inspired the Bible, then we should worship God as the Bible demands. We should certainly post the Ten Commandments in our courthouses and shopping centers, put "In God We Trust" on the money and pray in our schools. We should focus our society on God and his infallible Word because our everlasting souls hang in the balance. On the other hand, if God is imaginary, then religion is a complete illusion. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are pointless. Belief in God is nothing but a silly superstition, and this superstition leads a significant portion of the population to be delusional. But how can we decide, conclusively, whether God is real or imaginary? Since we are intelligent human beings living in the 21st century, we should take the time to look at some data. That is what we are doing when we ask, "Why won't God heal amputees?" If you are an intelligent human being, and if you want to understand the true nature of God, you owe it to yourself to ask, "Why won't God heal amputees?" (See linked site for some eye-opening essays...)

  http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

• After reading R107 all I want to say is, fuck off. So full of yourself, you revolt me.

• It is very sad that so many people need faith in someone else (a person or some deity), because they don't have faith in themselves. They declare to be powerless and look around for guidance until they see someone who declares himself a leader, a prophet, or a snake oil salesmen who promises to give them what they want in exchange for money, more power, more wealth, fame, obedience, blind faith, their bodies, their attention, and/or the last shred of mental health they had.

  http://www.mrrives.com/Technology/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/pope-gold.jpg

• Agreed that r107 is revolting. Bitch? There's no priest in this country that can provide a marriage license. You don't understand a fucking thing about marriage and you sound like a douchebag. Grow the fuck up.

• Everything that exists in nature can be reduced to the outcomes of phyiscal laws and probabilities. As for what, if anything, created the rules and set the gears in motion, I doubt we'll ever know. Personally I think a belief in a personal God is a psychologically healthy thing granted it isn't obsessive, but I just can't bring myself to put my faith in anything tangible.

• no

• No.

• Cheerful rational empiricist here.

• Nothing ramps up Gay Communities donations and activism like the Jesus freaks. They are better than any GLAAD fundraising campaign.

• Yes I do

• The people saying atheists are rigid in their thinking don't get it. Bottom line: If it was proven beyond a doubt that there was a god, atheists would then believe. However, if it was proven beyond a doubt that there WASN'T one, believers would jump off bridges like the one poster here said he would do. Or you would see suddenly "kind" people reveal their true selves or huge numbers of folks freaking the fuck out because they suddenly don't know how to be. The world would go on and the atheists would remain exactly as they already are.

• Certainly not.

• Not in the least - and I'm heartened by the fact that so many people are coming to their senses.

• R27 should believe in god. It might help him.

  Atheist

• No. But I keep my mouth shut because to say otherwise would be bad for business.

• I'm with R120. Coincidences or synchronicity have caused me to question, not God, but whether a higher power or force watches over us. I don't buy religion the way it is depicted in bibles. I think basically the churches have hijacked our own divinity (that we all possess) and are selling it back to us second-hand.

• I believe in Clams, Xenu, H-bombs and... COCK... I'm of below average height but a mega-star. Who am I?

• 1) Yes I believe in the Judeo-Christian God who is revealed in The Bible. I do not believe in the man-made religions who hate and kill and steal on the Earth. Organized religion is the Great Whore we are warned against in the book of The Revelation. There is no explanation of why I believe, as my faith was given to me as a gift from God. As far as reasoning and thought process, the existence of God was my default position, because I know that I exist, and I am not inanimate, I have life. I did not create myself, nor did I give life to myself. And I know that my parents did not give me life either, because they got here the same way that I did. While the atheists tell me that they will only beieve in existence of God if He can be proven, my position is that I will believe in the existence of God unless He can be disproven. 2) My homosexual orientation does influence my faith and trust in God. I spent much of my life believing that God would miraculous change my sexual orientation. I do not choose to be homosexual, and I do not desire to remain homosexual. I believe that my homosexuality is a disorder, it is something that happened to me, and it is through cause and effect like everything else about humanity. I now realize, often learning the hard way, that organized religions are comprised of lying con-man preachers who are just out to take money from people under false pretenses. My sexual orientation remains a giant open unanswered question for me, but I know that the Exodus International people, and all other ex-gay groups that I know anything about are just out to take money, they have more answers than me, and if I ever get my answer about homosexuality it will come from God and not from any man or woman. 3) No, you do not have to believe in God to have a sense of right from wrong, or a moral code, or a way to establish a civilization or society. I know that right and wrong exists, good and evil exists, life and death exists, light and darkness exists, because God and Lucifer exists. Other people can experience these things even if they don't recognize the source of them.

• Unbelievably offensive thread. Why can't our community have a diversity of beliefs without hateful intolerance from those who choose not to believe. We're not harming you. We actually love you despite yourselves. Why has the webmaster allowed this thread to continue?

• The thing is, whether you believe in God or not, it really doesn't affect your life all that much. God is just that -- a belief. It has no consequences. It changes nothing. Will believing in God provide you some comfort in times of loss? Perhaps. But human nature is very resilient. It's not a God-given trait. It's our survival instinct. We're resilient because as with all species, we want to live.

• There is no need for a god, in any religion. "Gods" are defined in my mind as "an ever shrinking pocket of questions for which science hasn't yet arrived at a conclusion." If you question the religion you were given as a child, if you can't quite put it all together and convince yourself, and if you've been religious for a little while now but are starting to feel buyer's remorse . . . you are NOT alone. You are right to be skeptical and the world is increasingly in agreement: There. Is. No. God. We are all we have, and that is beautifully enough.

• I agree r146, I'm so fed up the arrogant mud slinging, from both sides, having said that non atheists on this board tend to be more tolerant and accommodating, but there are some atheist that come off as unbearably self obsessed and self righteous.

• r149 atheists aren't the one condemning gays and passing laws to restrict the civil rights of gay couples. Atheists aren't outside abortion clinics taunting and intimidating patrons and doctors. They are killing abortion providers. They aren't demanding that every school children read the bible and choose creationism over science. You sound like an intolerant, unaccommodating, and unbearably self-obsessed asshole yourself. Kettle meet pot.

• Nope r150. No believer on this thread is advocating anything hateful. So why even bring it up. Stop putting us all into the same POT.

• I said both sides r150, I'm not excusing any of that. And there are a lot of Christian who are not fundamentalists, there are many people who are spiritual and maybe just believe in a God. But you just hate, ridicule and mock everyone that isn't an Atheist. There is a gray area, not everything in black and white.

• I don't know if there is a higher power or not, but the Gods described in organized religion is laughable. If he does exist I am not impressed. If you are this being God that can create everything, why did you do it? You created human beings for what purpose? To weed through them to get to the cream of the crop and create an army or something? Why did you make us so complicated? Why do we have to eat and shit? Couldn't you have made us like Gumby figures where we are all one piece of plastic and don't have to deal with all these organs that can go bad, and a spine that is very close to the surface and can get easily injured? Why did you create billions and billions of light years of universe around us? Wasn't that overkill? And why did you give us the brains to think for ourselves, and then threaten to punish those who don't believe in you even though the only "evidence" of your existence is that we are here and that we were told you exist from the day we were born?

• Christians are so oppressive. They insist everyone else believe in their god, then use it as a weapon to pass laws and hurt people. There is no reference to atheism on coins, or in the pledge of allegiance. Atheists don't show up on the doorsteps of private homes hounding people about "you're going to burn in a fire" and such. Atheists don't take to the airwaves every Sunday morning preaching condemnation of homosexuals and trying to coerce people into sending them money with hopes of prosperity and threats of eternal damnation.

• OK, so let's say there is this all powerful, all knowing being who created the universe. And let's say he created the angels and Lucifer. So is he really all powerful and all good if he created Lucifer? He created a being capable of evil. So he cannot be all powerful and all good, can he? Once someone can explain The Problem of Evil to me without resorting to, "god gave us free will" then maybe I'll have some respect for the believers. Until then, shut up about how god is so great. He's obviously created some fucked up things so he isn't that great of a god.

• R154 has never heard of Sam Harris.

• [quote] R154 has never heard of Sam Harris. Not everyone is old enough to remember STAR SEARCH.

• I believe in existence... a force of some sort. I don't believe I can ever comprehend exactly what it is.

• I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness. The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance

• [quote]I was gonna sorta write some long winded reply, but now I can't be arsed. I'm just so bored by the whole thing. Believe what you want, don't believe what you want, I just don't care anymore. LOL! You sound like me. I was going to write a reply and explanation, but I'm so sick of it all too.

  Stopped believing last year

• About a year ago, I was starting to come to the conclusion that there is no God and religion is all made up. But then I would still catch myself saying things to myself like "Thank you God!" or "Please God, help me here." If there is no God, whom or what do we thank when we are blessed? Luck?

• Define "Blessed."

• R102 is obviously my sister trying to get the last word without actually having any arguments. Atheists rule!

• [quote]Define "Blessed." Being anointed with good fortune from on high.

• no

  Kansas boy

• [quote]We are all we have, and that is beautifully enough That's actually a pretty sad and pathetic way of thinking. I feel sorry for you.

• R166=misanthrope

• To the ones thinking I made my statement at R90 because I "need someone to be in control of my life", or that I'm a "fool" for beliving in God, well, you couldn't be more wrong. The vitriol and smug self righteousness that many of the non-believers in this thread are displaying just shows what happens when you have a lack of faith--you become bitter and despicable. Not all believers are standing outside of abortion clinics with picket signs, damning gay people and shoving religion in other people's faces. What happened in some of you people's lives that would make you just not believe in anything? We are not just here to be here. There is a divine plan in everything. I just hope most of you wake up and realize it before it's too late.

• "smug self righteousness" + "What happened in some of you people's lives that would make you just not believe in anything? We are not just here to be here. There is a divine plan in everything. I just hope most of you wake up and realize it before it's too late." = IRONY

  Alanis%20M.

• My statement is R91, not R90.

  R168

• I've yet to come across any compelling reason to believe in a god. Zero.

• That's not me being self righteous, R169 (some of you people on here hold the patent on self righteousness), it's just the truth.

  R168

• [quote]I've yet to come across any compelling reason to believe in a god. Zero That's a shame, and also pretty scary. When you die, do you think it will just be some big void?

• "smug self righteousness" + "it's just the truth" = IRONY

  The%20Second%20Coming%20of%20Alanis%20M.

• [quote]That's a shame, and also pretty scary. When you die, do you think it will just be some big void? There won't be a void. You'll just be dead. You cease to exist. Why is that so hard for you to understand.

• R175, nevermind, hon. Your whole vibe is just pretty depressing.

• r176 After we die, there is no vibe left - negative or positive We're dead. What we do with our lives while we're alive is what matters. Unlike you, I don't think about death or salvation. I think about making the best of this one life. I treat people well because I know tough life is and we're all going along just trying to survive. I don't God to appreciate life and other people. I'm glad you need the fear of God to enable you to live. I just don't.

• So much hate for atheists on this board. Do you theists and agnostics listen to yourselves? Do you realize you sound like you don't really believe what you claim to believe?

• [quote]After we die, there is no vibe left - negative or positive We're dead I was speaking of your negative vibe. [quote]What we do with our lives while we're alive is what matters I agree, which is why I try my best to treat people as I would want to be treated. [quote]Unlike you, I don't think about Well, neither do I--at least not as much as you seem to think I do. However, it'd be pretty inhuman of you if you never even gave it a fleeting thought [quote]I'm glad you need the fear of God to enable you to live. Now where did I say that? I'm a believer. I believe that there is more to life than just us. I don't "need" that to survive, but the fact that I believe in it makes living that much sweeter.

• [quote]So much hate for atheists on this board. Quite the contrary, actually. All I see is atheists calling believers "fools," and belittling us at every turn.

• r179 that's nice that you believe. It's a belief. I don't believe but I'm not berating or calling you negative. What do you want to argue about? Do you want to beat me down until I tell you that God is real?

• [quote] Quite the contrary, actually. All I see is atheists calling believers "fools," and belittling us at every turn. You mean the same thing you're doing.

• It's quite funny you should say that r180 because as a gay man, the very people who "belittle" and condemn your sexuality are Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and all the devout who believe in a higher power. Atheists are the least of your worries.

• R182, I never said you, or R181, or any other atheist is a "fool" or a "nut" for not believing in God, much like your fellow atheists have been doing me and other believers in this thread. I stated that your views are sad--almost hopeless, because they are.

• So you didn't use the word fool. You're just as negative and judgmental as those you complain about. Eventually I'll get the answer I expect.

• [quote]the very people who "belittle" and condemn your sexuality are Christians, Muslims, Hindus Again, not ALL of these people condemn gays. I know plenty of Christians who are gay friendly. There are even gay-based or pro-gay, love-for-everyone churches all over the country. To demonize all believers or single out some of us for the extreme words and actions of others who walk in faith is exactly the same thing as when gays say ALL Christians speak negatively of gays.

• To demonize all believers or single out some of us for the extreme words and actions of others who walk in faith is bigoted in and of itself, is what I should have said.

• No. Because I'm not a brainwashed moron who still believes in the exactly equivalent of Santa Clause. I grew up. Magical thinking is an attribute of childishness. I'm an adult.

• [quote]No. Because I'm not a brainwashed moron who still believes in the exactly equivalent of Santa Clause. I grew up. Magical thinking is an attribute of childishness. I'm an adult. To R183 and R185, a statement like this is precisely my point.

• And thus the Christians have been able to move seamlessly from burning witches, to enslaving blacks, to attacking Jews, to demonizing gays, r187. The rallying cry... Let's hear it... 1, 2, 3.... "Not all Christians are like that!!!!" Because there was a (usually extremely quiet) minority of religious people who objected to such actions, history is rewritten, No matter how heinous the crime, it never quite sticks to its religious perpetrators.

• [quote] To demonize all believers or single out some of us for the extreme words and actions of others who walk in faith is bigoted in and of itself, is what I should have said. For some of us it's not a matter of demonizing, it's a matter of being cautious. I keep my distance from religtious people until they've proven to me they are not hateful bigots like the loudest members of their groups. And since they've chosen to align themselves with groups known for hatred and bigotry, I see it as their job to prove they are not. I don't give them the benefit of the doubt anymore.

• You sound very insecure of your belief r189. Why does it matter what anyone on this thread says? Better yet, why do you need to defend yourself? You're posting on DL in a thread that pointedly asks whether you believe in God. You can just predict that people who don't believe in God will tell you why. You're offended by the "why" part. If you don't want to hear the reasons why people don't believe in God, then stop reading this thread.

• [quote]I keep my distance from religious people There, you said it. Religious people. Religion is the operative word. Some of us who walk in faith consider ourselves spiritual, not religious. Religion is equated with fanaticism. I consider myself to be a spiritual person who believes. I'm not necessarily religious, although when you tell someone that you believe in God, or that you belong to a church, they automatically assume, "Oh, he's a religious fanatic!" There's a difference.

• I'm not insecure in the slightest, R192, but when someone tells me that atheists are getting a bad rap in here, or that they are getting the brunt of the insults, then I feel that I need to point out the contrary.

• [quote] although when you tell someone that you believe in God, or that you belong to a church, they automatically assume, "Oh, he's a religious fanatic!" There's a difference. Sorry, but that would be enough to make me cautious. And I've heard more than a few bigots refer to themselves as spiritual. So yes I assume the worst until the individual in question proves otherwise.

• I honestly don't know, so I would be an agnostic. Do I think there is something more? Yes. Faith and religion are not the same thing, though. Religion over the past 40-60 years has become increasingly more self-absorbed in its practice, particularly Christianity. People want to feel good and be rich. There is no self control or spirit of helping others in an impersonal sense. It is also used selfishly to gain particular outcomes, i.e. conservatives use it to put forth their political agenda.

• To what R168 said, a big Amen!

  ES

• R111-still laughing -that was very funny. Only a blessed wit could be that funny.

  Anonymous

• R168, you're a moron. The fact that you think not believing in a fictional man-made invisible sky fairy for which there is exactly zero evidence means "not believing in anything" shows how ignorant you really are. And some of the most bitter and despicable people I've ever met were so-called "Believers".

• R189 can't handle the truth.

• [quote]And some of the most bitter and despicable people I've ever met were so-called "Believers". But not as despicable and bitter as the one you see when you look into a mirror. You seem very angry. The first thing out of your mouth (or should I say, from your keyboard) was calling me a moron. You have no idea who I am, but the mere fact that I believe in God incited you to say such a thing. And the believers are the ones who are doing the bashing and insulting? You exemplify the type of lash-out tactics that people with such a limited viewpoint as yourself often display.

• I can see why R201 is getting riled up. I think it's a shame that most of these threads up this way. As an atheist, if a believer calls me a fool or a moron for abandoning religion, I could take offense but find it easier to give reasons why I'm think I'm not a fool or a moron for disbelieving. R201, I would be very interested to hear why you are a believer. I'm sure the reason you believe isn't because some atheists are rude. But there must be a reason and I'd like to know what it is. Also, do any of the arguments that atheists have made in this thread with regard to their disbelief resonate with you at all? Do any of our arguments make sense? Could we, indeed, be right? I don't feel particularly rigid in my thinking - I'm more than willing to to have my viewpoint de-limited.

• [quote]But not as despicable and bitter as the one you see when you look into a mirror. You seem very angry. You perceive anger that isn't there. A little incredulity that you could be so ignorant, naïve, and gullible maybe. But that's not my problem it's yours. You only believe in "god" because your parents (and presumably some institution like a church) brainwashed you into it as a child. It's just weird to me that you learned that Santa isn't real, the Tooth Fairy isn't real, but you keep clinging to the bizarre and ridiculous notion that "god" is real. Why? Yes, believing in god is a sign of being a moron. Just like if you came across an adult that fervently believed in Santa and insisted he was real. Or that Obama was a muslim Marxist Kenyan out to destroy the country. Or that the comic book Thor is a true story. Anyone who is intelligent and educated, who has studied religion and religious history, would easily recognize that man has always created "gods" in his own image... that it's all made up, manufactured, usually by those "in control" to keep the masses "under control". That you believe in some invisible, unprovable entity that some how can read your mind ("hear your prayers"), or that know or gives a damn what is going on with you personally, in a universe as infinite as the one we live in? Yeah, I'm a bit incredulous. Both at the ignorant naivity, and the complete arrogance. It's not MY view point that is limited, it's yours. Your mind is trapped in a little box. I'm far less limited than you, which is precisely WHY I don't believe in god. My not believing in your god is no different than your not believing in Zeus, or Odin.

• YES!!!

• [quote]The first thing out of your mouth (or should I say, from your keyboard) was calling me a moron. You have no idea who I am.... We know what you choose to write here, R201, and what you wrote in your post at R168 was, in fact, moronic. If you don't want to be called a moron, stop writing moronic posts. It's pretty much that simple.

• In a word, op, no.

• Yes. And I work for The Church, interestingly enough, almost the whole staff is gay.

• What makes you think God wants a bunch of AIDS infected homos believing in him?

• I use to be atheist, but I became uncomfortable with whole new atheism ideology, the idea that it is cool and trendy to ridicule and humiliate someone in submission just doesn't sit well with men, I guess it's just not in my nature to get off on humiliating or mocking someone, it seems to suit many other posters here rather well. Also now that atheism has become a profession for the bourgeoisie idle, it's just not my thing. I know what I believe, what I feel, I guess everything [bold]either side[/bold] of pure agnosticism is personal Revelation, then we find our "proof" to solidify it. I don't label myself anymore and what I believe or don't believe in is private and personal. I know a world without religion with be little different, thinking otherwise is being naive, so ultimately it makes no different to be.

• That made no sense at all, R209.

• r31, et al, get medicated.

• Give me a break, R209. I believe in God, but the vast majority of atheists I know are perfectly respectful and tolerant individuals. Even my more zealous atheist friends are respectful of my beliefs and never try to convert me or 'beat me into submission.' You have a right to identify with whatever religious identity you wish, or have no religious identity at all, but saying that you aren't an atheist because of the way a vocal minority of atheists act tells me that you are way too focused on other people and not focused enough on yourself. I detest the way many Christians behave, but I'm not going to let that stop me from being a Christian.

• r32, perfectly stated. I feel the same way. But, I also believe "inside" of my conscience, if you will, that there exists a supreme being that created it all. Or, we are from "alien" life forms. Is it not true that our very planet was from "alien" material floating through space? There, then, must be something from whence we (all matter) came. But, r32, why do we then think? Rationalize? When other evolutionary animals cannot? How did this come to be? The mind? Conscience?

• That's muddled, R213. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that you believe something "inside of your conscience". Also, your definition of "alien" is true for any object in the Universe... I am "alien" to you, just as a coffee cup is "alien" to your hand. I don't think that has any spiritual import, but your mileage may vary.

• I posted on the forum before about how I was raised an atheist, I came form a large secular family, about 2 years ago now I had a very real and terrifying paranormal experience in a Guest House in Montanan. It really upset me, I am no longer an atheist but I have never spoken about it to my family. I still pretend to be atheist to all but my sister who converted to Buddhism in college, and she had some about of hardship from my brother and dad at the time, I think telling them I had an experience with a scary ghost for want of a better word would just not be worth it. But yeah, now I believe in an after life, I believe in the soul. I suppose I am a non-secular humanist.

• [quote] for the bourgeoisie idle Thank you, Lady Evelyn. I actually think it's great we're living in an era when atheists (at least in some places) are finally free to speak up and don't risk having their heads cut off or being put in prison or getting severely censured by society just for pointing out there's no Santa. I hope the ideas spread, that it's the next stage in human evolution towards a better society and that it's finally the end of these ridiculous, anti-humanist notions that have done so much harm to the human race finally end. Things must look very different from Ashton Manor, I suppose.

• YES!

• Nost religious people use their religion like a sledgehammer..."I'm RIGHT and you're WRONG!"

• Yes r218, but Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and Seth MacFarlane do the exact same.

• R215, could you please expound on your paranormal experience?

• R215, I'm not going to tell you what to believe, but according to my beliefs, what you encountered was a demon or devil. I don't have certain knowledge of whether these spirits are fallen angels who followed Lucifer into rebellion and were cast down to Earth, or if they are dead spirits of a pre-Adamic creation. What I do know is that they are evil, and that I have power and authority over them in the holy name of The Lord Jesus of Nazareth, whose I am and whom I serve. Evil spirts are already dead, they are just empty shells, and the light, the life, the power, the glory of God is removed from them. They can scare you, but that is all they can do, except deceive you and thereby cause you to harm yourself. They can't even do that much to born-again, Holy Spirit filled believers who know to take authority over them, and cast them out of our presence.

• Wow, R221 really quaffed that Kool-Aid, didn't he?

• So... why can I only see orange-starred threads in The Datalounge Today? Nothing else shows up? I saw someone else post that this was happening to them too... WTF?

• It wasn't Kool-Aid. It was ORANGE JULIUS!

• [quote]R201, I would be very interested to hear why you are a believer. I'm sure the reason you believe isn't because some atheists are rude. But there must be a reason and I'd like to know what it is. You're absolutely right. My being a believer has nothing to do with atheists. I pray that they find some kind of spiritual balance in life, but I believe because I know Him for myself to be true. In my life, I have prayed and he's answered me, I am blessed to have health, family, friends, employment, and I count those blessings everyday. I cannot look at the vast world around me and not think that there is absolutely no reason for it. There is a higher power. I pride myself as being someone who doesn't always need something to be tangiable for me to know that it is there. For the person at R203 who insists on bringing "Santa Clause" into the equation well, no, my friend--Santa has nothing to do with it. You may insist on there not being anger in your tone, but I see it very clearly. I actually find your little barbs to be amusing, if not very immature and somewhat depressing. Let me pose a question to atheists--rude, friendly or indifferent--Why NOT believe? And no "I'm a grown up who doesn't believe in fairy tales" smart ass answers, but truthful, honest repsonses. Are you that closed-off to the possibility that something greater than all of us is out there? Does it make you feel like less-than to have some sort of spiritual guide? Did something traumatic happen in your life that just made you stop believing?

• [quote] Are you that closed-off to the possibility that something greater than all of us is out there? Does it make you feel like less-than to have some sort of spiritual guide? Did something traumatic happen in your life that just made you stop believing? You'll get an honest answer when you pose an honest question, not one that is loaded with the same kind of condescenion you claim to be against.

• That IS an honest question, R226. I'm not sure how you want me to put it.

• No, it is not an honest question. It is loaded with preconceived notions, the same things you rail about. If you want to ask a question, ask it simply without the same insults you claim to be a victim of. Can you do that?

• Those are not "preconceived notions", R228. A preconceived notion would be me saying "These reasons are probably why most of you are atheists, so spill it." That is not what I said, and if you re-read my post at R225, you will clearly see that. Those things I listed, however, could be some of the reasons various people choose not to believe. If none of them apply to you, then just answer the question.

• I have to agree with R228. It's presented in an extremely biased fashion - many of us never believed in the first place, very few atheists feel 'less than' anything, and atheists love possibility backed by reason. I will answer it anyways, though. I personally don't believe in Abrahamic monotheism because there is no empirical proof of divine guidance or divine creation. (I am more sympathetic to pantheism and panentheism; however, these still fall short of my own personal criteria.) I believe that there is an infinity to be discovered and explored in our Universe; I believe that all of these new experiences are best explored through scientific means. I have no ill will towards individual religious people, but I strongly disapprove of institutional monotheistic religion as it affects the daily lives of innocent citizens.

• [quote]than to have some sort of spiritual guide I don't need a spiritual guide. It's such a cop out not living your life, but letting this god determine what and how your life is going to be. You're here physcially riding in the carriage, but you hand over the reins to something else. If something bad happens, you ask god to fix it. If you can't deal with grief, then there MUST be reason god did it. Not that what happened is just life happening, there HAS to be a reason. But only he knows it. God is a big crutch for people who don't or can't deal with the complexities of life. Going to church on Sunday, sitting before a guy who has a book consisting of old stories, having this person who is supposed to know more than you read from this old book--this is what's guiding your life. Not you. Oh, and then pay some money for that privilege of having someone preach to you about being a good or you'll burn forever underground.

  Please god let me win that new car; I promise I'll be good

• What about those of us who worship cock? I absolutely believe in cock.

• [quote]You're absolutely right. My being a believer has nothing to do with atheists. I pray that they find some kind of spiritual balance in life, but I believe because I know Him for myself to be true. The notion that atheists have no balance in life is as ignorant as it is insulting. And you know no such thing about "Him" (how ridiculous that you give 'god' a sex and a capital letter)... by definition you DON'T know, otherwise it wouldn't be called "faith". You make assumptions and grotesque logical leaps based on what has been spoon fed to you, based on no reality or facts what so ever. And you imagine yourself superior to those who don't gullibly fall for magical thinking and lies? Really?

• [quote]Let me pose a question to atheists--rude, friendly or indifferent--Why NOT believe? That strikes me as an utterly bizarre question. Why not believe the moon is made of green cheese? Because it isn't. That's entirely the wrong question. The question is, WHY SHOULD I? Based on all of history, and all of science, and all of the facts and knowledge we have... can you come up with even one reason I or anyone else should "believe"? Let alone a GOOD reason? [quote]And no "I'm a grown up who doesn't believe in fairy tales" smart ass answers, but truthful, honest repsonses. That IS a truthful, honest response. And you reject it out of hand. How interesting. [quote]Are you that closed-off to the possibility that something greater than all of us is out there? No. I just don't believe in an obviously man-made notion of what such a thing is like, with zero evidence, invented by people who couldn't possibly know. At the first evidence of anything, I will believe. The Universe is a huge and wonderous place. The "religious" notion of the universe is a very small, narrow-minded thing indeed. [quote]Does it make you feel like less-than to have some sort of spiritual guide? I don't even know what you mean by 'spiritual guide'... and I don't think you have any such notion either. Again, I don't feel "less than" anything. I don't feel the need to make up magical stories to explain things I don't immediately understand either. [quote]Did something traumatic happen in your life that just made you stop believing? Uh... you've got things so backwards. There isn't a baby born that isn't an atheist. It's the natural way. You were INDOCTINATED (which by definition is kind of a traumatic thing) into your belief. If your parents had been Muslims, you'd be Muslim. If your parent had been jewish, you'd be Jewish. You inherited your indoctrination, you had it traumatically drilled into you as a child. Me? No trauma. No indoctrination. I never was lied to and never coerced into believing the lies. I believe in a lot. I just don't believe in things for which there is absolutely zero evidence, and a LOT of counter-evidence for.

• Well finally, some of the atheists are answering, although in very defensive, accusatory ways. Wow. Some of you need to take a breather and calm down a bit. [quote]The notion that atheists have no balance in life is as ignorant as it is insulting. I said, verbatum, "SPIRITUAL balance". I have no clue as to what other kind of balance you may or may not have in your life, but I was speaking on SPIRITUAL balance. Your answer was just as accusatory and angry as the other guy upthread. Take it however you want to take it, but I honestly feel bad for many of you.

• No. I am an atheist. I feel it far more likely that man created "God" in his own image than the other way around. The fantastical myth making of a pre-literate Bronze Age citizenry, translated across at least three languages, and codified under a political movement over 1,000 years later is far from convincing. I believe Occam's Razor would lean toward my understanding of things.

• [quote]Atheists get on my nerves because they like to make it seem as if it is some sign of stupidity to have faith. No, Atheists get on your nerves because the idea of not swallowing all the religious dogma you've blindly accepted your whole life is terrifying to you. Everyone brave enough to use their brains is the enemy, and to actually put your "faith" in what is, an can be explained and proven, fills the religious with rage. It's the over-reaction you've been programmed to exhibit so that you might push back those who even dare ask questions. Isn't that evident to you yet?

• I've yet to see intelligent arguments from the so-called agnostic who keeps saying atheists are "just as bad" as fundamentalists. It's mere ad hominem bullying. They think their attitude of condescending "respect" for theists, treating them like naughty children, somehow makes them superior. On the contrary, it is best to face religious people head on, especially since most people lie about their religious beliefs. To take them at face value is to presume they are morons, and that seems to be the agnostic position.

• No, people who live fact-based lives are more believable, serious and reasonable than those who live a superstitious, fantasy-based life. It's just how it is. See, religion has taught you to not accept and process fact in any accepted way. Just because you've surrounded yourself with like-minded people doesn't make it reasonable.

• [quote]Well finally, some of the atheists are answering, although in very defensive, accusatory ways. ROFL.... Oh, the irony. Tell me, dear, have you ever heard of the term, "projection?" [quote]Wow. Some of you need to take a breather and calm down a bit. You really should follow your own advice, dear. [quote]I said, verbatum, "SPIRITUAL balance". So? Sorry, dear, but that doesn't change anything. The notion that atheists have no SPIRITUAL balance in life is just as ignorant and just as insulting. [quote]Take it however you want to take it, but I honestly feel bad for many of you. LOL.... I, on the other hand, feel nothing but amusement for you.

• God is apparently pissed at DataLounge.

• Is anybody else here getting a half-assed thread watcher and no new thread postings as in "nothing found?"

  God

• I have a sneaking suspicion that the "dear" troll at R240 is that annoying "Dear Heart" Chick-Fil-A/Salvation Army troll. Just a hunch.

• I hope that, despite this thread, atheists and religious people can live in harmony, but... DEATH to Chick-Fil-A. Regardless of religious status, a good and kind person should hate that restaurant with a passion.

  Atheist

• R243, is that really the best response you can come up with? You really are defensive, aren't you? Is your faith really that shaky?

• Yesterday I treated a patient who is going to die young, because his religion is against he treatment that would save his life. I didn't try to change his mind because people have a right to refuse treatment for any damn-fool reason they please, but fuck! What kind of religion demands that people DIE rather than accept life-saving treatments? You'd think that would only be found in the most fingey cults, but it's mainstream. I just want to vent, thanks for listening.

  RN

• I very much believe in God and life after death. I believe in Jesus, because what Jesus actually taught and did are revolutionary and good, still. Turning the other cheek. Putting more emphasis on treating people well than on following cultish rules of behavior and judging. I am, like just about everyone on this thread, generally suspicious of organized religions.

• Let's talk about trolling, R243, shall we? [quote]You will when he returns. [quote]has his beliefs, and you have yours (or, apparently, not). Grow up. [quote]Such a small-minded way of thinking, [R82]. [quote]That's actually a pretty sad and pathetic way of thinking. I feel sorry for you. [quote]The vitriol and smug self righteousness that many of the non-believers in this thread are displaying just shows what happens when you have a lack of faith--you become bitter and despicable. [quote]What happened in some of you people's lives that would make you just not believe in anything? We are not just here to be here. There is a divine plan in everything. I just hope most of you wake up and realize it before it's too late. [quote]That's not me being self righteous, [R169] (some of you people on here hold the patent on self righteousness), it's just the truth. [quote][R175], nevermind, hon. Your whole vibe is just pretty depressing. [quote] I stated that your views are sad--almost hopeless, because they are. [quote]But not as despicable and bitter as the one you see when you look into a mirror. [quote]You exemplify the type of lash-out tactics that people with such a limited viewpoint as yourself often display. [quote]My being a believer has nothing to do with atheists. I pray that they find some kind of spiritual balance in life [quote]You may insist on there not being anger in your tone, but I see it very clearly. I actually find your little barbs to be amusing, if not very immature and somewhat depressing. [quote]Are you that closed-off to the possibility that something greater than all of us is out there? Does it make you feel like less-than to have some sort of spiritual guide? Did something traumatic happen in your life that just made you stop believing? [quote]Well finally, some of the atheists are answering, although in very defensive, accusatory ways. Wow. Some of you need to take a breather and calm down a bit. [quote]Your answer was just as accusatory and angry as the other guy upthread. Take it however you want to take it, but I honestly feel bad for many of you.

• You see, R243, there are only two types of people who would write what you have written on this thread: 1. An ordinary, garden-variety troll, someone who is simply stirring up shit to get a reaction. 2. Someone who is insecure in their faith, who is desperately trying to convince themselves, and trying to make themselves feel superior by denigrating others, beginning with your very first post on this thread. Which are you, R243?

• [quote]Someone who is insecure in their faith, who is desperately trying to convince themselves This is something I have often felt is what motivates the Bible thumpers. So often I have asked them why they care so much about me not believing in God? Their answer is usually, "I dont care, but God does." WTF? If you dont care, why make such a big stink?

• All this religiosity superiority makes me even less of a believer. Both extremes are off-putting, however, the non-believers are just more sensible and humane.

• [quote]the non-believers are just more sensible and humane. Really? What thread have you been reading? The believers have been called everything from "fools" to nothing short of mentally challenged for having faith and walking by it, and [italic]we're[/italic] the less humane ones? Yeah, okay.

• R252 Are non-believers shooting doctors and bombing women's clinics? Are non-believers hijacking airplanes and flying them into skyscrapers? Was it non-believers who planted a bomb at the Atlanta Olympics? Was it a non-believer who set off car bombs and shot up a youth camp in Norway? Was it non-believers who killed 14 traditionalist shamans in Peru? Was it a non-believer who set off a truck bomb in Oklahoma City? Was it non-believers who insisted a woman in Ireland be forced to give birth knowing full well it would kill her?

• R253,their answer to that is always Communism=Atheism. You obviously haven't argued with any freepers in the last thirty years.

• Op, I've seen Bishop Robinson speak, and he's an incredibly warm man. I can see why people made him Bishop. I have the odd point of view (for which I will surely be flamed) that God isn't a person, but an energy. Whether one calls it God, Allah, nirvana, whatever...

• What the bible says about gays is beyond anything I could imagine. I don't see how/why any gay person would believe/support such hate.

• And good for you R248 for calling that poster out. I'm tired of idiots calling people trolls when they are a troll themselves. Happens all the tie. If you can't handle DL stay off of it.

• [quote]Really? What thread have you been reading? This one, beginning with your posts. [quote]The believers have been called everything from "fools" to nothing short of mentally challenged for having faith and walking by it, and we're the less humane ones? Based on your posts, yes. Your glass house is far too fragile for you to be throwing those stones around.

• R253, you are generalizing. Not ALL believers bomb abortion clinics, damn gay people and hijack planes. Lumping ALL theists in with those extremists is no better than people who verbally/physically bash gays or judge a person because of the color of his skin. Oh, and for those who think otherwise, my faith is NOT weak, nor is it fragile, and it will not be broken on account of what some atheists think may be "foolhardy" or "childish". There are many churches who preach tolerance, and who stand on the principle of inclusivity for all. Because a person is spiritual does not mean they are filled with hate. Open your eyes. Open your mind.

  R252

• [quote] you are generalizing Nope. I am just asking some questions. [quote] Not ALL believers bomb abortion clinics, damn gay people and hijack planes. I never said they did. [quote]Open your eyes. Open your mind. My eyes are open, so open that I cant help but notice you cant bring yourself to answer questions which can be answered with a simple yes or no. Why is that?

• [quote]This one, beginning with your posts. Maybe you should go a little further back then. [quote]Based on your posts, yes. Your glass house is far too fragile for you to be throwing those stones around. Once again, go back and read the entire thread. I never called anyone out of his/her name, but several atheists have called me everything from a "moron" to a "fool" to someone who doesn't have control of his own life. I also never said I was perfect, so your little "glass house" idiom must be about someone else.

• [quote]My eyes are open, so open that I cant help but notice you cant bring yourself to answer questions which can be answered with a simple yes or no. Why is that? What questions? What are you talking about? I answered questions that were asked of me. I think you must just like talking (writing) to hear yourself speak.

• R262 You did not answer the questions in R253. You responded to the post in R259, but the seven questions, all of which could be answered with either a yes or a no, you completely ignored. Why?

• "Why I Am Not a Christian" by Bertrand Russell

  http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DNdDYvvevLZk

  Yeah%2C%20it%27s%2030%20minutes...%20watch%20it%20anyway

• [quote]I said, verbatum, "SPIRITUAL balance". I have no clue as to what other kind of balance you may or may not have in your life, but I was speaking on SPIRITUAL balance. Do you even know what you mean by that? I'm not sure you do. I sure as hell have no idea what you mean by it... or why you think you have so much of it, but atheists are utterly lacking in it. Hrm.

• [quote]Atheists get on my nerves because they like to make it seem as if it is some sign of stupidity to have faith. Maybe stupidity is too strong a world. Gullibility maybe? A lack of critical thinking? A mind stuck tightly in a little box, unable to think outside of it?

• [quote]Once again, go back and read the entire thread. Dunno about you, but I did. You entered this thread in full attack mode and you got exactly the responses you were looking for, so you could play silly games about how persecuted you are and how terrible "atheists" are. [quote]I never called anyone out of his/her name So? Look at that bullshit quoted in R248. How is it better that you didn't use anyone's name? [quote]but several atheists have called me everything from a "moron" to a "fool" Based on your posts here, both appellations are well-deserved. Again, read your own words in R248. [quote]to someone who doesn't have control of his own life. Q.E.D. [quote]I also never said I was perfect, so your little "glass house" idiom must be about someone else. LOL.... Nope, it's about you. Here's a Bible verse for you: Matthew 7:1-5.

• R267, I'm assuming you're new to this thread, unless you've cleaned your cookies, because trolldar isn't showing you further upthread. Anyhow, you say you re-read the thread? I don't think so [quote]You entered this thread in full attack mode Really? My first statement in this thread was "You will when he returns." Now, I don't know what your idea of "full attack mode" is, but, let me inform you, that certainly isn't it. And, if an atheist takes that statement as some sort of a threat, then maybe they need to rethink their spiritual leanings (or lack thereof) [quote]So? So??? LOL. Several atheists in this thread have complained about being "attacked", when the theists are the ones being attacked. I never out-and-out called someone stupid, or a moron, or child-minded for NOT believing. If you want respect, you'd better give it. Period. If you don't agree with that, tough shit. [quote]Based on your posts here, both appellations are well-deserved Coming from you, my friend, I consider that a compliment [quote]Here's a Bible verse for you: Matthew 7:1-5. Who's judging? I've simply stated that I'm a believer, WHY I'm a believer, and have occasionally expressed my opinions on those who DON'T believe, as they have of me and other theists (i.e., we're all radical abortion clinic bombing, doctor killing, hate-spewing freaks).

• Imagine a world without this ridiculousness.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Dqq7qZrXYtvk%26feature%3Dyoutube_gdata_player

• [quote]Who's judging? You are, actually. [quote]I've simply stated that I'm a believer. ROFL.... Wow.... you really haven't read your own posts, have you? I call your attention to R248.

• R268, although you've said you feel blessed in life and that you don't need hard evidence to believe (I'm paraphrasing here) I'm still interested to know more about why you believe. Also, how do you resolve the following arguments from atheists? For instance, religious beliefs differ widely across the world, most so different from the others that they cannot all be correct. Additionally, ones religion is almost always determined by ones place of birth. Doesn't this suggest that religion was developed from within particular societies rather than imposed by external, supernatural beings? Second, the basis of Christian belief rests solely on the Bible. How do you resolve the inaccuracies and contradictions in the Bible? If each part of the Bible requires the part that precedes it to be accurate, doesn't settled science with regard to the age of the earth and the evolution of man completely discredit the only source of Christian belief?

• R270, I never said that I [italic]only[/italic] stated that I'm a believer. You conveniently left out the last part of my sentence, which was: "and have occasionally expressed my opinions on those who DON'T believe." That long list of my quotes you love to frequently go back to is a list of my opinions. If you're going to quote me, and then point to previous statements of mine to debunk that quote, then please get it right. Thank you.

• [quote]That long list of my quotes you love to frequently go back to is a list of my opinions. It's a long list of personal attacks, from someone who is either a troll or who is terribly insecure in themselves and in their religion.

• [quote]It's a long list of personal attacks, from someone who is either a troll or who is terribly insecure in themselves and in their religion. Personal attacks? Come again? Those "quotes" of mine are in direct reaction to the way theists have been treated in this thread. Remarking about the arrogance of many of the atheists in here is a personal attack? It's true. Read the thread again and YOU tell ME who gets attacked more. Then again, most of you seem to be biased, so I guess it's no use.

• What R1 said. I don't really care if one exists or not. It will not change the way I live or act. I'm already a decent, live and let live person.

• [quote]Personal attacks? Yup. [quote]Those "quotes" of mine are in direct reaction to the way theists have been treated in this thread *Shrug* That doesn't make your comments any less personal attacks. You can pretend that you were justified, if you like, but you cannot even remotely pretend that "but not as despicable and bitter as the one you see when you look into a mirror" is not a personal attack. When I read similar threads attacking gay men on, say, FreeRepublic.com, my response is to laugh at the silliness, not get defensive and not attack (unless I'm deliberately trolling for the fun of it). But that's because I'm secure in myself and my beliefs. Only the insecure and the trollers respond as you have.

• [quote]You can pretend that you were justified Oh, it's no pretense. [quote]But that's because I'm secure in myself and my beliefs. Oh really? So secure that you felt the need to go and do a run-down of various things that I've said in this thread. YOU were the one who addressed ME, not the other way around. I think this alleged "security" that you have is a bunch of lip service, otherwise you would've done exactly what you purport to do on FreeRepublic.com and kept it moving if you were so "offended" by my "attacks." My "despicable" comment was in response to an attack on me. If your fellow atheists were adult enough to carry on a back and forth without resorting to calling someone "stupid", "foolish" or a "moron" because of his beliefs, then I wouldn't have felt the need to defend myself. As I said, to get respect you have to give it, but they apparently don't have that level of maturity. Now you have a BLESSED day.

• [quote]Oh, it's no pretense. Yes, actually, it is, but it's telling that you don't recognize that. Sticks & stones and all that. [quote]Oh really? So secure that you felt the need to go and do a run-down of various things that I've said in this thread. Yup. I've always loved exposing a hypocrite. It's amusing, particularly when they respond as you have. [quote]I think this alleged "security" that you have is a bunch of lip service There's that projection again. [quote]My "despicable" comment was in response to an attack on me. *Shrug* So? WWJD? [quote]If your fellow atheists I never said I was an atheist. [quote]were adult enough to carry on a back and forth without resorting to calling someone "stupid", "foolish" or a "moron" because of his beliefs, then I wouldn't have felt the need to defend myself. Says the individual whose first reply on this thread was: "You will when he returns." [quote]As I said, to get respect you have to give it No, actually to get respect you have to earn it. Sadly, you don't qualify. [quote]but they apparently don't have that level of maturity. Sadly, neither do you. Nor the self-awareness to know it.

• R177, I'm a "fellow atheist" who hasn't called anyone stupid. I did however pose a question to you that seem to be ignoring, so I'll ask it again. How do our explain your belief in God and how do you resolve the arguments of atheists (and agnostics and theists, too) which raise significant doubts as to the veracity of Christianity. Why not further the discussion?

• Would you two quit arguing. This belongs in the "most memorable freak out" thread. You're both cunts.

• LOL wow, that was quick. Ok, here goes... [quote]Yes, actually, it is No, it actually isn't. But if you want to go back and forth all night... [quote]I've always loved exposing a hypocrite. And the biggest hypocrites of all--the atheists who attack the theists and yet claim to be the ones who are attacked get a pass? I think you're "exposing" of me is a result of me hitting a nerve of yours. Like I said before, YOU addressed ME, not the other way around. [quote]Says the individual whose first reply on this thread was: "You will when he returns." Why does that line unnerve you so? What atheist would feel the need to defend himself against that line if he truly doesn't believe in God? If you're so secure in your beliefs, then that shouldn't bother you--hence my earlier assessment of that lips service. Gurl, 'bye!

• [quote]Would you two quit arguing. This belongs in the "most memorable freak out" thread. You're both cunts. LOL, you're right. But that guy at R278 is so pissed that he just won't leave me alone! I keep forgetting he even exists and then WHAM!

• Theists are all lying when they pretend they believe in God. They don't. They just think most other people do, so there are social advantages to be gained by pretending. We see that with the Bizarre Theist Troll on this thread. There is so much "devil's advocacy" you can tell she's just a frustrated chick who is mad because she would have made a better lawyer than whatever lame profession she did enter. I don't think she believes a word of what she says.

• Forgive me, R279. The troll at R278 is trying to monopolize my time, but I do appreciate you for being adult enough to have a normal conversation without flaming, namecalling and being a general asshole (like R279, but, I digress...) I don't necessarily feel it my job to resolve the arguments of atheists. I asked earlier in the thread "Why NOT believe?", and was flamed for that question/statement by some of your less mature compatriots. I just find it difficult that someone could resolve being okay with not have any sort of spiritual base, particularly since we're all going to face that one great unknown sooner or later--death. Sounds morbid, but it's true. I was raised a Christian, attended church regularly as a child, hence my belief in God. That, coupled with all the good things I've witnessed him do not only in my life, but in the lives of so many others that I know, is plenty of reason for me to believe. I'm not one who looks at all the negativity in the world and says "How can there be a God when this is going on and that is going on?" I'm one who says there is a reason for everything, and one day we'll all have the answer to that mystery. As I've gotten older, I've decided that I don't necessarily need to attend church service on a regular basis to know that God is real.

• [quote] but I do appreciate you for being adult enough to have a normal conversation without flaming, namecalling and being a general asshole (like R279, but, I digress...) Sorry, I meant an asshole like R278 (although, I'm pretty sure he knows who he is...)

  R284

• In your opinion^

• Why not believe? I'd say it is for two broad reasons. First the tangible evidence upon which Christian dogma is based is incredibly flawed. The second reason is less tangible - the fact that humans around the world all share similar beliefs with regard to origins and life after death suggests that the underlying questioning of life and fear of death creates religion and that geographic isolation explains the varying beliefs and stories. That is, it's believed to be true but actually isn't and cannot be true. I'm not a theist or agnostic because I don't believe the universe requires a higher power, and if something's not necessary it probably doesn't exist (Occam's Razor). Again, adding the underlying fear of death and we can see spiritual belief fulfils a very human purpose (defining spiritual belief in supernatural terms, and not by connections to nature, art or music which some people consider to be spiritual). The reason I struggle to have a "live and let live" attitude to religious dogma is because it's the cause of so much grief in the world. While it's true that without religion we'd find other reasons to fight and cause misery, I do think religion severely restricts the ability to consider logical and reasoned solutions that may otherwise be apparent to all concerned. I get the fear of death thing. Many atheists have no fear of death, but I'm not one of them. I don't worry about what happens after I die, but struggle with not wanting to die because life is too good and I don't want it to be over. Although I tell myself death is a price to pay for being lucky enough to live, I still explore escape clauses on the odd times I contemplate dying.

• [quote]Yes, actually, it is Nope, sorry. No comments on a site known for pointless bitchery "justify" the responses you've given. Just own up to your own aggressiveness and ill behavior and move on. [quote]And the biggest hypocrites of all ...would be the people who say one thing and do another. Have you looked in the mirror lately? I repeat: WWJD? [quote]Why does that line unnerve you so? It doesn't. It was a personal attack and it was your entry into this thread, which made your further claims of victimhood moot, and funny. You went trolling and you got exactly the responses you were looking for. Again, be an adult and own your behavior. [quote]If you're so secure in your beliefs, then that shouldn't bother you LOL... It doesn't. I found it amusing. And your comments after that even more amusing. And your lame defenses of those comments freaking hilarious.

• [quote]Do you believe in God? No! No! For the love of Christ, No!

• Fuck, no.

• I'll bet a lot of people who say they're believers are just conformists, going along to get along. It's like believing in Santa Claus your whole life. But when you're dying, and Santa will supposedly whisk you off to happy land in an afterlife, I'll bet a lot of them know they're really just going to die and rot in the ground.

• I live in Melbourne, Australia and luckily for us, we are not a fundamentalist christian nation like America is. In fact, the christian church is dying out here. They are closing down and being sold off because only the old people are going to church these days and they are dying off too now. That speaks volumes about how out of touch christianity is with reality. People are too educated to believe in the nonsense and bigotry spouted by the various churches. Only today, 2 christian party politicians (we have a handful in total) have had to step down from Parliament because of their homophobic comments that are so out of touch in Australia. One said he wouldn't have gays teach his children (he also looks a bit retarded and his surname is Gaynor – ironic) and the other person likened homosexuality with paedophilia. They were both fired today and there has been an outcry from Australian's. This is a great thing. This is progress. Sure - there is a very small element of fundamentalist christians in our country but they are slowly fucking themselves over so that they can no longer operate in society when no-one has enough respect for them to listen to anything they have to say. Speaking of paedophilia; there is a current slew of actions, both legal and media reporting (outing?), against the catholic church which is attempting to bring all the catholic priest paedophilia to light and stop the church from hiding it. Justice for the victims is priority and that is a great thing. It has also become socially unacceptable to speak about christian beliefs in general society and something that would have you up in HR if you tried discussing christian beliefs (read bigotry) in the workplace. This is another great thing. In fact, being a christian has become something that is undesirable, embarrassing and looked down upon. I wouldn’t have a devoted christian as a friend. I couldn’t. I couldn’t ever respect them. Generally, christianity is dying out in Australia. This is because the general public is too educated and too enlightened these days. As the oldies die out – there is nothing left for christians. This is a very great thing. Sure, when we do our census, you have to have to select your religion but this is now nothing more than saying you are blond, brown or red haired. No-one actually believes in it or goes to church. It literally means little more than nothing these days and that is a very great thing. The person who said that you have to have christian beliefs to have morality earlier in this thread is disgusting and completely wrong. In fact the entire statement is a complete oxymoron. All churches actively encourage war, bigotry, hatred (even against other religions) paedophilia and mostly importantly for this audience, homophobia. Just look at the news, newspapers and Internet for a plethora of evidence. Don’t take my word for it. For me, and for everyone I know, the answer is no – we don’t believe in a god. And that is the best thing of all. Perhaps we can get on with becoming accomplished, educated, empathetic human beings who are focused on furthering our existence once the churches have been eradicated from educated Western countries. (Well, except America). Religion won’t last another 100 years and will be looked back upon as we do now with the Greek Gods... The Greek Gods used to be what christianity used to be too. Now they are just stories for children…

• [bold]Do you believe in God?[/bold] I believe in the existence of God. I'm just not into practicing a religion. I don't go to church. Anytime I address God I do so privately.

• [bold]Do you believe in God?[/bold] No.

• [quote]Nope, sorry. No comments on a site known for pointless bitchery "justify" the responses you've given. Poor thing. Taking what I've said to someone else to heart. My advice--seek out some therapy. [quote]...would be the people who say one thing and do another. Exactly, darling. That's precisely what the atheists in the thread have been doing. Your refusal to address this fact is proof that I've gotten under your skin which, while unfortunate for you, is painfully obvious to the rest of us [quote]It doesn't. It was a personal attack and it was your entry into this thread While it was my entry into this thread, it was hardly a personal attack, seeing as though I said it to someone who doesn't believe in God to begin with. Again, you are taking things I address to other people to heart, and its exposing you as weak. I think the last thing some if these people need as a savior is you. [quote]be an adult and own your behavior Pot meet kettle. [quote]LOL... It doesn't. I found it amusing. And your comments after that even more amusing. And your lame defenses of those comments freaking hilarious. Now, I know BS when I read it, and that there quote from you is friggin loaded with it. If my comments to others were amusing to you, then we wouldn't be having this little tete-a-tete, now would we? The sooner you own up to the blatant fact that I've gotten to you/hit a nerve, the sooner you can stop embarrassing yourself, and spare me this second hand embarrassment I'm feeling for you. Someone up thread uproariously called us "cunts," but I do feel that the word applies to you more so than me, dead heart. Now, it's cute how you wait with bated breath for my every post, but perhaps you should take a bit of your own advice and move on before you dig yourself even deeper. It's really not a good look.

• That's exactly my stance, R293

• [quote]Poor thing. Taking what I've said to someone else to heart. My advice--seek out some therapy. ROFL.... Actually, I'm just having fun exposing a hypocrite. I'm ever so touched by your concern, though. [quote]Exactly, darling. That's precisely what the atheists in the thread have been doing. Matthew 7:1-5. [quote]Your refusal to address this fact is proof that I've gotten under your skin which, while unfortunate for you, is painfully obvious to the rest of us ROFL.... Uh-huh, you just keep telling yourself that. [quote]While it was my entry into this thread, it was hardly a personal attack Really? So when God returns, it's all going to be sweetness and light, candy and flowers? Dear me, I must have gone to the wrong churches growing up. [quote]seeing as though I said it to someone who doesn't believe in God to begin with. So? The issue is what you profess to believe. [quote]Again, you are taking things I address to other people to heart Nope, just exposing a hypocrite. [quote]and its exposing you as weak Well, sure if you're a moron living in a fantasy world. To everyone else, not so much. [quote]I think the last thing some if these people need as a savior is you. Sorry, not a savior. Just a regular guy having fun exposing a hypocrite. [quote]Pot meet kettle. Oh, I do, trust me. I know *exactly* what I'm doing. And I acknowledge it. Too bad you can't say the same. [quote]Now, I know BS when I read it, Oh, I really don't think so. [quote]and that there quote from you is friggin loaded with it. ROFL... Q.E.D. [quote]If my comments to others were amusing to you, then we wouldn't be having this little tete-a-tete, now would we? LOL.... Um, did you bother to actually *think* before you wrote that? You're hilarious in your utter lack of self-awareness and your hypocrisy. Of course I'm going to continue trolling you. Why on earth wouldn't I? Has it really escaped your notice that I'm having fun? [quote]The sooner you own up to the blatant fact that I've gotten to you/hit a nerve, the sooner you can stop embarrassing yourself, and spare me this second hand embarrassment I'm feeling for you. ROFLMAO.... There's that projection again. [quote]Now, it's cute how you wait with bated breath for my every post, but perhaps you should take a bit of your own advice and move on before you dig yourself even deeper. It's really not a good look. I'm ever so touched by your concern but I think I'll continue to do whatever I want. As long as the amusement continues, I'll be right here. You know what's *really* hilarious? Someone so immature talking about immaturity!

• You are SO my bitch, R297. What was that, all of eleven minutes between my last post and your latest diatribe? I barely had enough time to hit "save post". So sad. LMAO! Good response R287. So I take it you're not a foxhole atheist? Some atheists profess to not believe in God, but during times of distress they suddenly believe.

• Are you two still going at it? Jesus...... Look, some people believe and that's fine. Some don't and that's fine too. Agnostics claim to not know and Apathetic Agnostics (like me) neither know nor care whether there is a magic fairy in the sky. My belief is that IF there is a deity he is not looking over us and doesn't even care about us. He is omniscient and oblivious to our existence at the same time. The universe is too vast a place for one to concentrate on us tiny insects.

• I like churches for their architecture, but the people are foul, just foul. Actually, I don't think fear of death has any role at all in the religious impulse. I think the religious impulse is the same as the scientific one, controlling nature. But the scientific way is patient inquiry and experimentation, and the religious way is to suck up to somebody who is believed to have more control and knowledge than you, in this case God, in that case the Medicine Man, the witch doctor, the Priest, or the leader. Or in modern America, the rich man. It's all the same impulse, power and control. But only one way works, and it's not the kissing ass way.

• I think the foxhole analogy has got it backwards. First of all, no painful or scary situation in my 50 yrs has ever suddenly made me a believer. It doesn't bother me that I'll just blink out of existence when I die, I'm not narcissistic enough to think that I'm so important I have to exist forever. People much like me will continue to live, and that's enough immortality for me. To the contrary, I think facing death makes a lot of believers "foxhole atheists." When bullshit fairy-tales are all they have left to save them, their suppressed doubts will get louder and force them to accept that there's no immortality safety-net after all.

• I've read this entire thread. r295 is perhaps the most unpersuasive, hubristic, poster of nonsense that I've ever read at the DL. Everything that he or she has posted is the equivalent of right-wingers who, with idiotic self-satisfaction "debunk" evolution by saying "Evolution is just a theory." Of course it's a theory. It's a theory which explains the fact of evolution just as Newton's theory of gravity explains the fact that gravity exists. Sorry, but both the, say, Old and New Testaments and the Koran are failures as theorys because the fact they seek to prove, ie. "God", unlike evolution and gravity, doesn't exist.

  Della

• [quote]Are you two still going at it? Jesus...... Lol nope. The troll at R297 is pretty much going at it by himself at this point. I will admit that his insistance on humiliating himself is priceless. That's an interesting viewpoint though, R299, but my belief is that he does care about us all, even the ones who reject or deny him.

• I don't know, R301. Your never having a situation that suddenly makes you a believer is not everyone's case. There are situations where ardent disbelievers are faced with life and death situations and come out of it as believers. Everyone's situations are unique. I referenced the late rock singer Peter Steele earlier in the thread. He was someone who considered himself a foxhole atheist until certain things happened in his life that made him not only ponder his mortality, but ponder what happens after death and about God. He reconciled that, for him, it was hard to believe that people like Hitler and Stalin are going to the same place as Mother Teresa. It's deeper than the idea that someone is being narcissistic because he or she believes in a higher power or an afterlife.

• Scientists who study the Universe believe in God in surprising numbers.

• That is true R305

• Apathetic Agnostics neither reject or deny. They simply don't give a shit. It doesn't impact their life.

• R307, don't all Agnostics take that stance?

  R304, etc.

• I'd be keen to see data supporting that assertion, R305 and R306. The general view is that scientists disbelieve at significantly higher rates than the general population - only 7% of the National Academy of Science members believe in God (roughly 21% agnostic, 72% atheist). I'm personally interested in cosmology and read quite a bit on the subject, and I haven't read anything yet that says (or even hints) that God is involved. Regardless, no matter your profession or level of education, the social and cultural factors that influence all of us are very powerful, and it's not a surprise that scientists might hold contradictory beliefs. Humans have evolved to a point where we are intelligent enough to contemplate our own limited lifespans, and yet we maintain the animal instinct to keep ourselves alive at all costs. It's not really a surprise that we've redefined death to remove its sting as a way to balance these two conflicting impulses.

• Why are gay atheists such disgusting and nasty creatures?

• God is dead.

  The%20New%20York%20Times

• Like most fundamentalists, I see that R310 picks and chooses what he or she wants to see, notwithstanding the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Atheists are well aware that personal attacks are the result of the inability to pose cogent responses to our arguments. If being an asshole gives you comfort, feel free to carry on.

• R312 proves my point.

• I don't believe in 'God' as a supreme being. What I believe is a sort of collective consciousness. If we treated people according to the Golden Rule (which most so-called Christians actually don't), then the world would be a much better place, and people wouldn't have to put their faith in deities to save them or feel better about themselves. At the end of the day, this is what it should be about.

• R308 most agnostics claim no one knows but if they had proof they would believe. Us AA's still wouldn't care.

• What cracks me up about Christians in the Bible Belt is if you don't believe or don't go to a church, or if you simply say as I do "I'm not religious at all" they are really flabbergasted and don't know what to do or say. One of the first questions I was asked by someone, and at work too, was what church did I belong to and had I accepted the lord jesus into my heart. The woman stood there blinking in bewilderment. She never bothered me again except to come by once in awhile and talk about going to church on Sunday in a very smug "you're going to hell and I'm not kind of way". She was also the worst gossiper and busybody in the office which I found hilarious. She was a huge hypocrite.

• It's all a farce, astrology has more relevance.

• I'm atheist, in fact I was pretty hardcore like most posters, but my boyfriend wasn't; he wasn't religious but spiritual. He was perfect except for that, I couldn't let it go and did everything to try and bring him round and make him see sense and let go of his superstitious nonsense. I couldn't resolve it, I try so hard and in the end I probably went overboard and got maybe too heavy, we broke up, well I broke up and I did it viciously. I wanted to really hurt him. I was so angry at him. That was 3 years ago and now I am in a great relationship with a guy I care for so much. He is an atheist too and we share all the same political/ cultural views, we are pretty well matched and planning to marry this Fall. But every morning when I wake up my ex is the first thing I think of; where is he now, who is he with, what's he doing. In all my quietest moments he is the person I think about. Sometimes I get so pissed, but I guess what can you do? My ex is long gone and if I did see him again, he'd hate me and I still don't know if I can resolve my atheism with his believe.

• R318 is serving up some Fatal Attraction realness.

• Oh. My. Science. R309 dear, you posted probably the most cogent, well-reasoned of opinions, and did it in such a way that was neither demeaning, or insulting. So, the question has to be asked: Are you a stranger to Datalounge? :-) Seriously though, bravo. I agree with much of what you stated.

• [quote]Why are gay atheists such disgusting and nasty creatures? Because Christians are such hateful, violent and frightened animals.

• I agree with R301. My bf was a "Christian," even sent money to Billy Graham. I was willing to go to church with him when he was sick and terminally ill, but every time we made plans to, he decided he'd rather stay in bed snuggling.