Growing up Episcopalian I remember the communion wine and it was always good. The priest told my mom they got cases delivered from somewhere and I'm not sure it was available for resale. My mom asked him because she loved the wine served.
I was told Baptists and Lutherans don't drink wine but grape juice because they think fermented drinks were not consumed back then? Anyone?
Oh, and fermented drinks most certainly were consumed in the 1st century and even before then. The old testament is chock full of stories people drinking too much and doing regrettable things.
It is well known that "red drank" was served at the Last Supper.
There has been wine since at least 7000 BCE.
There were fermented drinks like wine or beer before there was bread.
I am fairly certain that all Protestant denominations, other than Episcopalians, use grape juice (Methodists even let small children and non-Methodists partake in communion, which some other churches do not).
[quote]I was told Baptists and Lutherans don't drink wine but grape juice because they think fermented drinks were not consumed back then?
Wine has been around for ages and it was actually a preferred beverage because water supplies were tainted.
So what is there reasoning R7?
Missouri Synod Lutheran here. We've always used Mogen David for communion. Grape juice available if a church member shouldn't be touching alcohol.
I know the other Lutheran denominations all use grape juice. Pussies.
I love the wine served at the Catholic church I grew up in. My mom always got mad at me for drinking from the cup because she was afraid I'd catch something. But I did it anyway because I loved it so much.
I believe Baptists and Methodists are supposed to refrain from alcohol - hence the grape juice.
But Jesus drank so I'm not sure where this teetotaling came from R11. Doesn't make sense to me.
Many of the Protestant religions were involved in the temperance movement, so that is perhaps where the ban comes from. As far as Jesus drinking wine goes: most people understand that during Biblical times, water was considered unsafe to drink (and for good reason) so alcohol was the wiser choice. This attitude lasted a real long time. Lewis and Clark brought beer with them on their journey because they felt it was safer to drink that then water.
I'm an ELCA Lutheran. My church, and all the others like it in the area all use real wine. Of all the different Lutheran churches I've attended over the years, I can only recall one or two that didn't use real wine.
Real wine was also served at the Churchwide Assemblies that I've attended.
I remember reading somewhere that the Missouri Synod was the only American denomination that never had a temperance society, because Blessed Luther drank beer.
The Voice of the Night
R13 - I agree, but those are their rules. Body is a temple and all that.
Why do the mormons not drink caffeine?
Heck, yeah, R16. Those monks and friars sure could make some good alcohol. Nothing else to do I guess.
R16 Im not certain, but I have a feeling the beer that was around in centuries past was different from the beer we have now, at least in terms of alcohol content.
The Mormons use something like chopped up wonder bread and tiny plastic cups filled with water, all blessed and delivered by 12 year olds.
Christ, why can't mormons just order the same communion wafers that other churches do? Is everything they do tacky and low rent? Wonder bread is about as low rent as you can get.
I grew up Roman Catholic in the 70s and 80s and they never served wine at communion in the churches I attended. Only the priest had some.
Later, a chalice was available off to the side for those who wanted it, but I'd say that didn't appear until the late 80s.
Back in the 70s, Communion was placed on your tongue by the priest and the altar boys held that shiny gold thing under your chin in case the drunk old coot dropped it. I guess it was the late 70s when people had the option to take it in their hands and pop it in their own mouths. The poor altar boys looked like they were playing ping pong with that shiny gold thing, never quite knowing where to place it (under chin or under hands).
Way lapsed Catholic
"I was told Baptists and Lutherans don't drink wine but grape juice because they think fermented drinks were not consumed back then?"
If that is true then they are not even internally consistent... wasn't the miracle at the Wedding at Cana (the first attributed to Jesus) where he turned water into wine?!?!
Idiots can't get their own stories right!
Presbyterians use Welch's Grape Juice.
I worked at a Presbyterian Church for Boy Scouts, and we used grape juice (concentrate) and white bread. I asked the minister and he said they had dropped the wine when they switched to the tiny little individual shot glasses because it was easier, and they switched to the glasses instead of the goblet back in the days of the polio epidemic because the glasses were more sanitary.
As far as the bread, he said something about how Jesus ate bread, not a wafer, and then he made it very clear that the Catholic nuns controlled the wafer business in this country and it would be a cold day in Hell before Presbyterians would buy their wafers from the Papists.
[quote]As far as the bread, he said something about how Jesus ate bread, not a wafer
The last supper was during passover, so Jesus likely used unleavened bread, which is why Catholics (and others) use a wafer.
R26 is correct. Bread was unleavened and not anything like the shit we eat now.
R25 that guy sounds like he needed to loosen up his panties.
Listen if I go to church they'd better goddam serve real wine and not pussy grape juice.
Most Protestants do not use wine. Only the liturgical oldline liberal Protestant churches use wine (Episcopalians, Lutherans). ALmost no Pentecostal, Baptist, Methodist, evangelical, or non-denominational churches use wine.
Why not, R29?
Do you know?
Seems to me a Protestant is a Protestant.
Shouldn't the wine be Mogan David?
I was brought up as a Methodist and we used grape juice served in a tiny paper cup. The bread for Communion was a home made loaf the pastor's hippie daughter baked.
r29, most evangelical Protestants think drinking alcohol is something Christians should refrain from at the very least. These Christians believe believe that although alcohol consumption is not inherently or always sinful, it is generally not the wisest or most prudent choice for a Christian to partake in. This view is widespread. Some Christian think alcohol consumption as we know it today is a sin and believe that the wine drank by believers in the Bible had a lower alcohol content than today's wine. Prohibitionists hold that the Bible forbids partaking of alcohol altogether, with some arguing that the alleged medicinal use of wine in 1 Timothy 5:23 is a reference to unfermented grape juice. They argue that the words for alcoholic beverages in the Bible can also refer to non-alcoholic versions such as unfermented grape juice, and for this reason the context must determine which meaning is required. In passages where the beverages are viewed negatively, prohibitionists understand them to mean the alcoholic drinks, and where they are viewed positively, they understand them to mean non-alcoholic drinks. Prohibitionists are a smaller group of Christians today, but the overall negative view of Christians who drink alcohol is widespread, especially in the South.
Welch's grape juice was originally developed as a non-alcoholic substitute for sacramental wine, usually in various Protestant churches, the Methodists and Baptists are the first to come to mind though.
OP here. I loved the old time communion we did. I don't have a religious bone in my body but I thought the wafer and drinking wine out of that big gold chalice was the shit back then. I loved Christmas when the priest would come down the aisle with his purple scarf on and the little incense burner thingie swaying around.
I'm pretty sure most Catholic churches have switched over to grape juice as well.
I don't know about you folks, but I'm drinking the literal blood of Christ.
Transubstantiation and all that.
We use delicious Seneca grape juice at my church (Welch's is owned by a bunch of heathens) and anyone using wine is a blasphemer and fornicator.
I grew up in a congregational church. We had grape juice in little crystal glasses that were brought to us. The bread was baked by the minister's wife. We would sneak down after church and eat the leftovers - she was a great baker!
I was so surprised when I went to an Episcopal service with my friend and I was expected to go to the front of the church and all I got was a drop of wine (I think it was wine) and a dried up cracker thingie. I preferred sitting and getting my little glass of Welch's and a hunk of homemade bread delivered to me.
r27, unleavened bread was served at the last supper, maybe because Jesus was Jewish, and unleavened bread is what is used at that ceremony. Yeast breads have been around for thousands of years. Even the Egyptians had yeast breads, as did the Romans.
Don't come back, you lazy git!
R39 we got more than a drop. I'd say we got at least a good swallow but this was 40 years ago too. Inflation may have changed this.
Seventh Day Adventists don't use wine.
Grape juice in little plastic shot glasses & Wheat Thin (tm)-like wafers.
Mormons use plain bread and water because they're cheap.
And tacky R44. Shit, they can't even spring for grape juice?
I'm an Episcopalian convert. We still use real wine and get plenty of it. I always dip "dried up cracker thingie" in it though.
Catholic. Former altar boy. Hated the wine, but one priest - the usual early Mass one because the pastor didn't like to get up early - would offer it to us to finish what was left (this was early Mass - 6 and 7), and there was a lot left because at those Masses only the bread was given to attendees. He was rather hot - the priest - and was our swim counselor, so I saw him in the nude and he was lean with a big cock with pale skin and black hair. I couldn't say no.
It just seemed a little overly generous, since I was in sixth and seventh grade. But I would let the other server have first sip, and if it was one of the savant alcoholics in grade school, I didn't have much left to deal with.
The Churches of Christ use grape juice. They are afraid if real wine is used, it might lead to dancing.
as r34 mentioned there's a connection, WWelch was a Methodist. Big time connection there.
Of course they drank wine in ancient times. But American culture had a big temperance streak and that became reflected in certain denominational traditions.
I grew up Baptist and we had the lil plastic cups of juice. In seminary I attended and Episcopal church and was amazed at the feel of wine in my mouth. My forbears would be pleased to know I didn't turn out to be a lush. Or a dancer. I do suck a lot of dick tho.
[quote]Bread was unleavened and not anything like the shit we eat now.
R40 already refuted your unleavened mistake, but I thought someone should point out that not everyone subsists on Wonder Bread and Pillsbury Crescent Rolls.
"The shit we eat now"? There are bread recipes that haven't changed dramatically in centuries, like baguettes, naan, pita, etc. You can find plenty of decent bread in bakeries and upscale food markets, developed from recipes and traditions that span millenia. To claim bread was magically delicious in the olden days while being "shit" now is a bit ludicrous, unless you're buying all your bread in aisle 3, next to the hot dog buns and "English muffins".
I didn't think any of them used wine.
The only ones who don't use wine are SOME of the Protestant sects. Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, Orthodox and Eastern churches all use wine.
Until I read this thread, I never knew why many Protestants don't use wine, so thanks to those who provided an explanation. I was brought up Baptist, and as a child I got into trouble for asking why we didn't drink wine when Jesus' first miracle was making it. No one could tell me why it wasn't okay to drink it if Jesus was busy conjuring some up for everyone to enjoy. They just accepted it.
My local priest (Irish American guy in a Puerto Rican church) used Cognac.
Wine? We use the blood of dead gay people, soldiers, and children to give us life.
r53, what you offensively call Protestant "sects" are a huge portion of modern Christianity, and the fastest-growing segment.
Former Episcopalian acolyte here. I remember that I was to serve at a memorial service for one of the members for the parish. The church was out of the 'regular' wine (whatever that was), so one of the mothers was instructed to drive to the package store and buy two bottles of tawny port.
Most Protestants use grape juice rather than alcohol for communion which includes Methodists, most Presbyterians, some United Churches of Christ, the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Christian Missionary Alliance, some Lutherans, the United Methodist Church, Baptists, Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, Adventists, and Community Churches and most nondenominational churches, including Churches of Christ, International Churches, and independent Christian Churches as well as Community Churches and Bible Churches.
Church of Christ.
They use grape juice.
Any particular reason R58? Jesus drank wine so I don't understand their problem.
Why is it offensive to call them sects? That's exactly what they are.
r47, if you're still around a year later - were there ever any sexual abuse rumors surrounding the hot priest? Giving a near chalice-full of wine to sixth and seventh graders seems so blatantly inappropriate that it seems like possible grooming behavior.
Lapsed Episcopalian here ... the pre-confirmation-age children left midway through the service, with communion taking place while they were in Sunday School.
The "cracker thingie" is called a communion wafer, R39.
R54 -- the priest's plying you with cognac had NOTHING to do with communion!
I've always been Lutheran and have never heard of a Lutheran Church that didn't use wine for communion. Some provide grape juice for thise that can't handle alcohol.
Wine was common in Jesus' time as a way to preserve the grapes. Non-fermented grape juice would not have been served back then which is why wine is used for communion.
Pretty much everyone in this thread disputes that, R36, so I don't know why you're so eager to display your ignorance.
Catholics still use wine, and I think it'll be a cold day in hell before they mess with the Eucharist that they've been celebrating since the dawn of Christianity.
I thought in Catholic churches the laity only get a cracker thingie, so only the priest gets a drink?
WELS Lutheran here - definitely serve wine at communion. Grape juice available for those who can't / don't wish to drink alcohol.
The best part of church. I like to continue it after I get home. Hell some days, I live in a 24 hour a day state of communion. Blood of Christ? Pino? It's all good.
[quote] The Mormons use something like chopped up wonder bread and tiny plastic cups filled with water, all blessed and delivered by 12 year olds.
Seriously? They just give out pieces of bread. I'm Catholic and that sounds crazy. I'm used to the wafer. Although I haven't step one foot inside a church in over 20 years
I was also raised a Lutheran and, though I haven't been to church in decades, the last time I was there, there was definitely wine at communion.
I grew up Baptist, and our church used grape juice.
Alcoholics Anonymous is the reason some churches don't use real wine. Some pastors were AA members and had the church bylaws amended so they could keep their sobriety.
Baptists and Methodists do not have communion.
r23 and r66, I grew up Catholic and never had wine for communion. It was only for the priest. I stopped going to church in the mid-80s and only went back for weddings and funerals, and even then didn't go to communion. When my grandmother died a few years ago, the priest gave us all a special dispensation so we could receive communion without going to confession, so I did in honor of my Nan. I realized they changed the communion wafers, which used to taste like envelope glue, to a softer, whole wheat version.
I also noticed they changed the words to some prayers and some other things changed. What's with all the kissing at the sign of the peace? Shake the hand on the left of you, shake the hand on the right of you and get on with it.
[quote]Wine was common in Jesus' time as a way to preserve the grapes.
Funniest thing on dl in weeks.
R64 also believes that smoking weed keeps your lungs warm, and snorting coke is how some people clean their mirrors. Shooting heroin helps with hydration. The high is just a regrettable side effect.
As far as the Lutherans go, ELCA, Missouri Synod, ELS & Wels all serve wine. That covers almost all of the Lutherans. My Lutheran church used to get their wine from a Catholic winery.
Another thing I remembered, the priest at my Catholic church when I was a kid led AA meetings. I wonder if he was drinking grape juice or wine. Or was it considered holy enough that he could drink it without relapsing.