Since the first thread is filled with slavish worship of all things 'Lincoln', I thought I'd copy and paste a few posts from another site (the guardian) that actually still has the sort of intelligent debate I was hoping to find on DL:
[italic]If only 'Lincoln' had been directed by Stone, Malick, Soderbergh or Scorsese we might have been spared the mountains of schmaltz and the oppressive overuse of the string section to cue our emotional responses. Such a subject deserves the guiding hand of a grown up intellectual. Spielberg manages to make a film about Lincoln's struggle to implement the 13th Amendment wherein slavery is never portrayed and wherein the President never uses the word 'nigger' once despite the historically documented fact that he frequently did so as did all Americans at the time.
And please: spare me the well fed and well scrubbed Union soldiers giving Shakespearian speeches whilst the orchestra swells. Dreadful. Spielberg should stick to rip-roaring adventure films a la Indiana Jones at which he excels.[/italic]
My feeling exactly.
Another poster on the guardian:
[quote]And I wouldn't really pay attention to anything Spielberg says, writes or directs. He is a clever businessman but an absolutely mediocre artist. He's not even an artist: he's a craftsman, if anything. He's the least talented of all the New Hollywood generation that came out of Roger Corman's machiavellian mentoring and he only deserves being mentioned to his contemporaries during that period (Coppola, Scorsese, even Lucas) because of Jaws which, in retrospect, is simply a good film and that's it.
Again, spot on.
More from the same site:
[italic]Oscars are not awards to quality, they are either reflections of popular taste or the result of attempts at modifying said taste, or sometimes both. By "popular" I obviously mean the majority of people who swarm to the theaters to watch pretty much whatever is given to them.
This has always been the case. Welles, Hitchcock, Kubrick, Kurosawa, Chaplin or Bergman never received director's Oscars. But a nothingness nobody remembers, a guy called Robert Benton, won three of them, one for directing. In fact, Benton's Kramer vs Kramer swept the floor in all major categories and I believe KvK's 5 major Oscars (including Best Director and Best Picture) against Apocalypse Now's meager 2 awards in the technical department is a very fitting allegory of what the Oscars are.
I therefore expect Haneke wins no Oscar. His prestige will remain intact if he doesn't[/italic].
Today's DL, unfortunately, doesn't agree.
Finally, someone posts about the whitewashing of Abraham Lincoln starting with quotes from the man, himself:
[italic][bold]Damn, the deification, edification and general white wash of Lincolns' history and thoughts has no bars. Maybe a new term has to used for a cinematic historical farce of visual beauty (color purple, empire of the sun, amistad etc.)
Spielbergerization. This movie doesn't even include Fredrick Douglas, a far superior man to Lincoln.
Anyways my children, here are some choice words from this 'great' American
"I will say, then, that I AM NOT NOR HAVE EVER BEEN in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the black and white races---that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with White people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the White and black races which will ever FORBID the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the White race."
~ 4th Lincoln-Douglas debate, September 18th, 1858; Vol. 3, pp. 145-146
"I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position. I have never said anything to the contrary."
~ Lincoln, Aug. 21, 1858, in remarks stating his belief that blacks were naturally inferior to whites.
"They(blacks) had better be set to digging their subsistence out of the ground."
~ Lincoln in a War Department memo, April 16, 1863.
"I cannot make it better known than it already is, that I favor colonization."
~ Lincoln, in a message to Congress, December 1, 1862, supporting deportation of all blacks from America.
"What I would most desire would be the separation of the white and black races."
~ Spoken at Springfield, Illinois on July 17th, 1858; from ABRAHAM LINCOLN: COMPLETE WORKS, 1894, Vol. 1, page 273
" You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss, but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think your race suffer very greatly, many of them by living among us, while ours suffer from your presence. In a word, we suffer on each side. If this be admitted, it affords a reason at least why we should be separated. It is better for both, therefore, to be separated."
~ Spoken at the White House to a group of black community leaders, August 14th, 1862, from COLLECTED WORKS OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN, Vol 5, page 371
"I thought that whatever negroes can be got to do as soldiers, leaves just so much less for white soldiers to do, in saving the Union."
~ Abraham Lincoln in a letter to James C. Conkling dated August 26, 1863.
Lincoln Quotes About Slavery
"It is found in nearly all the published speeches of him who now addresses you. I do but quote from one of those speeches when I declare that I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so."
~ Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, Monday, March 4, 1861.
"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."
~ Lincoln in a letter to Horace Greeley, August 22, 1862.[/italic]
Is Spielberg taking his concubine Daphne Zuniga or his so-called wife,Kate Capshaw? Or some other stinky hole we all don't know about......
I eat shit.
The Streep Troll (tm)
Apparently, Spielberg isn't as revered as he is here:
[italic]On Spielberg; his 'historical' movies have this weird glossy look. Poverty for instance always looks pretty with him. Generally he loves sanitized cinematic versions of historic reality.In Schindlers list, for instance, Schindlers character was more based on his mentor Steve Ross than on the actual title character.
To my point; do I mind some artistic freedom in historical movies? No not at all, how does one put everything that happens in period or lifetime in a (if you're lucky) three hour movie? You pick and choose and try to give an honest representation of a person or time period.
And there is the rub. The portrait of Lincoln that's been sold of him for for decades is of the great emancipator of slaves.
The narrative on this president is simply not true. It goes beyond artistic freedom and essentially is historic revisionism at it's worst.
That's how the quotes relate to this movie. An honest perspective. Having read the quotes yourself don't you think they are relevant?[/italic].
Final post lifted from the guardian which, frankly, is the kind I'd expected to read here:
[quote]Presumably the brilliant The Master has been overlooked because a certain, shall we say, special interest group, embedded within Hollywood, has panicked and vetoed it. Bring on the patriotic pap instead! Shame on them all.
But don't expect much objectivity from Americans when it comes to "Honest Abe". That crap will sweep the board on oscar night.
Carry on folks.
Please, The Master SUCKED.
Jesus, enough with the LINCOLN conspiracy posts! This is a thread about ALL the nominations.
I really hope Joaquin Phoenix pulls off the upset of the decade by beating DDL. He's a wonderful actor is, once again, superb in The Master. Too bad Hollywood is a popularity conquest not unlike high school.
I'd like to see Silver Linings Playbook win myself. I thought it was full of energy, unlike Lincoln. Plus, Jennifer Lawrence constantly trying to match Bradley Cooper's crazy was hilarious. I loved the scene where he spits in the street, she looks disgusted, and spits right back.
But I understand it's not for everyone, and I doubt it has a shot at winning BP.
I did like Lincoln, but it feels a bit ... stale.
I couldn't make it through Les Miz. There was a scene early on where Hugh Jackman and Russel Crowe are "singing" back and forth to each other in a room, and I don't even know if it could be described as a song. But their voices were horribly monotone and I found the whole thing unbearable. I turned it off. It may get better, I'll never know.
Enjoyed Argo. Best Picture? Nah.
Zero Dark Thirty was really good, but I'm confused by the fact that Jessica Chastain seems to be the front runner for Best Actress. Loved her in The Help, but this role didn't require much. I honestly would have nominated Ann Dowd over her. The award should go to Lawrence or Emmanuelle Riva to be honest.
The thing about "Lincoln" is that is a solid movie (not a future classic or brilliant, except for DDL) but I feel that is mostly admired/respected and not really loved (except for that insane Sasha Stone), don't know if that makes sense. "The Artist", "The King's Speech", "Slumdog" and even the more bleak or daring choices for BP in recent times like "The Hurt Locker", "No Country for Old Men" and "The Departed" all had very passionate supporters, it doesn't seem to be the case with "Lincoln".
I think an upset could happen, with "Silver Linings Playbook" winning in the end.
Argo is crap.
But there's this sense of inevitability about 'Lincoln' that, I fear, just can't be stopped.
[quote]But their voices were horribly monotone and I found the whole thing unbearable. I turned it off. It may get better, I'll never know.
It doesn't. I was only impressed with the prolog. Jackman's soliloquy was near-perfection and touching, and at the end when he rips up his yellow-ticket-of-leave and the music for "At the End of the Day" commences, it gave me chills. But that movie just went down after that. It doesn't help that the songs are reduced to talk-singing. For Christ's sake, it's not Sondheim, whose musicals are written that way. This is a musical full of power ballads. To reduce them to talk-singing, at times a whisper, is such a shame.
I think you're referring to the scene immediately after Fantine gets sacked. That scene is not in the stage musical, but they should've just left it as dialog. Recitative on film doesn't work.
[quote]I did like Lincoln, but it feels a bit ... stale.
I agree. It has some wonderful moments, it all starts great then it reaaaally drags. One moment it's a serious political drama and then it turns into something like the three stooges.
Spielberg is the weakest of the 5 director nominees, IMO.
Life of PI could also be a spoiler. With very little campaign it managed to score 11 nominations, like Silver Linings there is a group that really loved it.
Someone in the previous thread mention SLP being a poor man's 'Safety Not Guaranteed'. Anyone else agree?
I wish this would be Jennifer Lawrence's Oscar nominee clip, but it would require a lot of bleeping.
I see absolutely no similarities between SLP and Safety Not Guaranteed. In fact, I'm baffled by the comparison.
They are both great movies, though. It's a shame SNT didn't at least get a screenplay nomination.
Okay, I guess there are some similarities, but tonally they are completely different.
I simply could not get around the fact that not one of the people in Les Miserables could actually sing the score. It's not a play, it's a musical, a pop opera that requires singing for three hours. It becomes an absolute torturous drudge to listen to people try to squeeze out sound that they just don't have and aren't capable of making.
Any attempt at acting is blocked off because they are so panicked all the time trying to just get through the process of singing, and really miserably failing over and over. It was sad and distressing to watch. There were many bad decisions that led to this movie not being an artistic success, but the singing, for me, was by far the most egregious. It would not happen on the stage, people would boo and leave the theater.
It just doesn't work to have actors who don't sing in something like this. Chicago, yes, because you don't really have to have a voice. But this, no. I couldn't get around it, and the inclusion of the couple of voices that could pull it off half capably couldn't save it. It's a real shame. Yet should have just dubbed it, which would have sucked, but anything would have been better than what I heard.
No. Not at all. Count me as someone who wasn't impressed SNG but loved SLP.
Lawrence has several oscar clips:
-Stop talking about me in the third person
-Asking Pat to help with the dance
-HE'S HARASSING ME, HE'S HARASSING ME!
-How Tommy died
-Confronting De Niro (they'll probably choose this one)
Since most everyone on the internet is thinking it's going to be Lincoln or SLP taking the Oscar, I'd love a surprise win by something like Amour. I don't even think it's impossible given that it's only the second foreign film to score both a best foreign film nom and a best picture nom and a best director nom. Hell the fact that Michael Haneke got nominated over Affleck and Bigelow suggests a segment of the Academy really loves the movie. Again, it's unlikely to happen, but it would be awesome if it did.
Riva might have a better shot at winning Best Actress than Amour winning Best Pic. And how great would it be to see her fellow countryman, Jean Dujardin hand her a statue on her 86th birthday.
Why do you people care so much??
Please, get a life.
How big a role do you have to have to get a SAG ensemble nomination? I'm surprised Julia Stiles wasn't on the ballot for Silver Linings Playbook.
Jessica Chastain has leapt into front runner status because of ZD30's fall from grace.
A month ago, it looked like it was going to grab everything, it was THE critical darling. Only five noms and none for Bigelow is a huge comedown. Chastain is the only really likely winner for it now. Such a critically praised film has to win something.
Yet I can't think of one great moment for Chastain in ZDT. Great actress, but she shouldn't even be nominated.
This should be between Emanuelle Riv and Jennifer Lawrence.
The creepy Chastain is working on getting a tracheostomy done a la Liz in order to cinch the deal.
[quote]How big a role do you have to have to get a SAG ensemble nomination? I'm surprised Julia Stiles wasn't on the ballot for Silver Linings Playbook.
I think the rule is that your name has to appear alone during the credits. There are no opening credits in SILVER LININGS PLAYBOOK, but at the end the names of DeNiro, Weaver, Cooper, Lawrence, Tucker, and Kher appear on their own. Stiles' name appears with John Ortiz.
Julia Stiles looked really pretty in Silver Linings, and she was very good. But her role was small
It's the first time I was really impressed with Julia Stiles in SLP, she did look pretty in the movie. Director David O. Russell really brought out great performances from all his actors.
I really love this movie, I wish it would win Best Picture.
[quote]I wish this would be Jennifer Lawrence's Oscar nominee clip, but it would require a lot of bleeping.
I loved that scene! Jennifer Lawrence caught me by surprise, because I've never seen her act so insane. I really wish she would win the Oscar, instead of Jessica Chastain.
Btw, they did show that scene at the Critics Award, but it was edited.
I thought it was interesting that the main characters in Silver Linings Playbook never have sex. That's kind of refreshing for a romantic comedy/drama. The "I love you" at the end felt earned, if that makes sense.
So out of the 9 BP nominees, which has the least chance of winning?
I'd say Django Unchained, r36. The older Academy voters won't let a Tarantino movie win Best Picture.
Is that supposed to be impressive r20?
She's not winning any Oscars with that minor league scene well within the range of any soap actress.
It's a fun scene, that's all, R38. Not at all her best performance moment, you should watch the movie.
r20 - That was awful.
OP in her million posts is tedious and obviously suffers from OCD. To crap out material that simply corroborates one's opinion is a sign of mental illness. Go hijack another thread.
Just for the record, I agree on the topics of Spielberg's aesthetic and methods, and as a historian of Lincoln I cringe at the movie. But that's different from the DL's Oscar thread being spammed by a nuthouse crank.
"Lincoln" will win but I agree that it shouldn't.
Personally I would appreciate it if "Beasts of the Southern Wild" won. It was a stunning debut film.
The race this year is crazy! Lincoln is not the strong frontrunner that everyone was expecting.
The SAG will probably clear things up. I'm hoping for a SLP win there. BAFTA will probably go for Life of Pi or Argo, considering the surprise best actor nomination for Affleck.
If DGA goes to Affleck then it could be very possible to see Argo winning without a director nom, like Drivnig Miss Daisy.
It's still Lawrence vs Chastain, with Riva gaining momentum (she'll probably take the BAFTA).
Supporting actor is another crazy category. I'd love to see Waltz win again.
Hathaway....I was one of those who thought she was a lock since the trailer was released. I'm not a hater but after the display yesterday she could have hurt her chances. Not so much with her speech but with her attitude when Les Mis won; even the producer seemed annoyed. I'm still saying she wins in the end but if someone else takes the SAG or BAFTA then I won't be surprised to see her lose the oscar.
With Bill Clinton endorsing the film, there is no chance Lincoln is not going to win BP now.
I do think Haneke will take best director, though.
AnnE Hathaway is beyond irritating. She exhausts me. At this point I would be happy if Sally Field won, and I never thought I would ever say this.
I still hope they'll give it to Amy Adams or Jacki Weaver, though.
Anyone but that freakshow Ann, please.
[quo] If DGA goes to Affleck
If he couldn't get a Directing nom from the Directors Section of the Academy is this likely?
DDL is a lock
JL has a slight edge over JC
PSH has a sligtht over everyone else
AH ties with SL (I wish!!!)
R46, if you could just add your predictions for the gowns on the red carpet I can avoid watching completely.
Thanking you in advance.
It could happen, r45. See Howard for Apollo 13 and Spielberg for The Color Purple.
The directors branch of the academy is a small group (they are the ones who decide the nominations) compared to the DGA where even the TV directors get to vote.
I really, really, want Joaquin Phoenix to snatch it from DDL.
AnnE may have really hurt her chances for the Oscar with her antics at the GGs last night. Just inexplicable. Something's really wrong with her.
Meryl is saving her diarrhea from the flu for me to make a wonderful stew!
The Streep troll (tm)
Best Picture: Silver Linings Playbook
Best Director: Michael Haneke
Best Actor: Daniel Day Lewis
Best Actress: Jennifer Lawrence
Best Supporting Actor: Christoph Waltz
Best Supporting Actress: Amy Adams
Best Picture: Amour
Best Director: Michael Haneke
Best Actor: Joaquin Phoenix
Best Actress: Jennifer Lawrence
Best Supporting Actor: Philip Seymour Hoffman
Best Supporting Actress: Amy Adams
Best picture: Amour
Best director: Haneke
Best actress: Riva
Best actor: DDL
Best supp. actress: Weaver
Best supp. actor: Waltz
An Amour sweep could be possible, if Lincoln and SLP split the vote. There is much love in the Academy for Haneke, as I predicted months ago, to the derision of my detractors here on DL.
Needless to say, I was right.
Waltz, meanwhile, could become the new Jason Robards.
R54, how is that possible for Waltz? His wins wouldn't be back-to-back like Jason Robards' were. He' be more like the new Peter Ustinov.
There's still time for frontrunners to lose ground, remember what happened to Viola. I feel the Lincoln balloon left the GGs a little deflated.
R52 R54 Two Austrians winning an Oscar at the same time? Perish the thought. Could it happen? Haneke's English is insufferable to all these Hollywood types so they can't have him ruin the ceremony.
Riva winning...I wish! She doesn't speak English AND her triumphant walk to the stage would take forever. That means TPTB have already fixed Jess Chastain as the winner.
Amour as best picture?! I love the movie BUT this is Hollywood folks. They aren't giving an Austrian/German/French film Best Picture. It's either Argo or Lincoln. Bringing out Clinton wasn't in Spielberg's favor either way.