I want to know why so many of us idolize fraus like Bette Midler, Cher, Barbra, Britney and Beyonce when they clearly despise all the other fraus including the ones on Datalounge and at the same time they don't support or idolize actual gay singers? What the actual f*ck?
I have wondered why bland singers such as those listed are idolized at all, 'seriously'.
I want to know ... why I had NEVER heard "frau" used by native English speakers until I came to Datalounge?
I want to know why you keep talking in generalizations. Not every gay man idolizes these singers. Not every gay man despises women. Datalounge is not a strong subset of any particular group.
[quote]Datalounge is not a strong subset of any particular group
and why the term "fag hag" which is disparaging not only for the woman but for the gays they like to hang with. Why is it a crime to enjoy the company of gays if you're a straight woman?
What is this 'hissing' Eldergays shit?
R3, we all know that you are the exception. Accept my humblest apologies.
There's so much more to being a fag hag than that...
R5, it is demeaning to choose gay friends to hang with in the same way as choosing to hang with black friends because they are black.
In music, I idealized Kurt Cobain, Elliott Smith, Kim Gordon, and Michael Stipe. Yes, I'm a child of the 90s.
The pervasiveness of pop princess music has always been an absolute mystery to me. I don't get any of it. They say nothing.
OP, you don't understand the term "frau." It's not just a synonym for "female" but means a certain type of boring, middle-class, middle-aged female. There's the hausfrau (meaning housewife) and then there's the cubefrau (pink-collar office employee.)
The women you are describing are not run-of-the-mill women but major stars. "Divas" might be a better term.
Do you really prefer Melissa Ethridge to Bette Midler? Really?
I totally read the OP wrong. My bad. I have no opinion on the subject...
*backs away from the thread*
Jesus you're all boring.
A lot of singers cultivated a following by pretending to mother the disenfranchised - Lady Gaga as just the latest example. See also: literally every other female performer ever.
In the meantime, some had such tragedies in their own lives, addictions they couldn't beat, lovers who were unfaithful, that we in turn identified with them on a more personal level than if we'd known them.
The cycle feeds on itself until there is practically a cult around Cher, Babs, etc.
Ultimately it never really hurt anyone.
R12, how about giving the male singers a chance. Frank Ocean, Ricky Martin, Clay Aiken, Rufus Wainright, Elton John (for the eldergays) and so on. Why always the females?
R5. there is a difference between friends and hags, though often the distinction doesn't become apparent until the relationship is over.
R9 is not that far off the mark when it comes to the definition of hag. If it doesn't apply to you then you're not a hag.
oh R9 I see what you're saying now. But you're assuming that's why they're hanging with them. I guess that would be a real "fag hag"? A woman who chooses to hang out with gays because they're gay and not because she actually just enjoys their company? Well then I guess you're right there.
Nobody has an answer to the original question?
hey OP, give me one good hardcore gay song.
R15 I've been asking this question for years. Why are gay men so happy to support talentless idiots like Britney, Rihanna, etc, who do nothing for gay people except take their money, but don't support out gay singers? It's ridiculous.
r15, men singing about loving men, losing men, etc., is relatively new (and, of those you mentioned, only 2 -- Ocean and Wainwright -- regularly sing such songs). As a result, many -- not all, but many -- gay men have responded to female singers because they were the ones who gave voice to our experiences -- "The Man That Got Away," "The Way We Were," etc.
IMHO it's because those famous Mommy Issues, involve love as well as hate. Everyone has Mommy Issues to at least some degree, but Dataloungers have really high levels, to put it politely.
If your mommy was a bitch to you, you may hate her for her thoughtlessness, small-mindedness, and attempts to force you into her idea of the perfect child, yet you love her for her fearlessness and power, and desperately want her to love you.
So if we generalize those feelings we hate all mommy figures ("fraus") for being petty and controlling, yet we may love a diva for the same egocentrism and fearlessness we loved and hated in Mommy. If a diva seems to love us in return, she may become the focus of the love part of the love-hate relationship embedded in our psyches.
OP - I do not idolise anyone on your list so not all of us are interested in these flacid "gay icons".
Who the fuck idolizes Beyonce, OP?
At least around here, I've seen nothing but scorn for her and her fake pillow pregnancy.
Okay, I'll bite the real issue of this thread -- Streisand and Cher and Britney provide entertainment from far away and, far as I can tell, have done nothing to hurt me or my fellow gays, for that matter.
Women in general -- fraus, if you will -- have been a major headache/heartache if I look back over my life. Either professionally by being dishonorable and owing me money, personally with backstabbing and gossip and, to the extreme, some truly awful cunt behavior like sleeping with the guy I confessed to be in love with (one room down so I could hear it all and without apology... pure female poison/competition).
I'm not even sure I could come up with one man who did any of this to me, certainly none that professed to be friends. No frat brothers when we were dating women, no shark businessmen (they honored every contract)... and I could fill this forum with more examples.
Disappointing because I treat women as people uncomplicated with sex and those games. Now, I admit, I look at a great many of them with contempt. "Get the fuck out of my way."
Please do not lump truly talented women in with a crop of untalented messes like spastic, wailing Beyonce, and poor Britney. People embraced Barbra because she was an original - and truly, unquestionably blessed with an unbelievably amazing voice. Bette was unique - funny, raunchy, and a lightning bolt onstage. Even Cher, who's voice was only so-so, became a fashion icon, in her day, and proved herself a wonderful actress. Beyonce has proved herself an adequate actress, an OK singer, and has no real personality to speak of. Britney's on Meds, Rhinna's just stupid - and a p.r. whore, Kesha is an auto-tune hack, etc. Need I go on ?
[quote]fraus have been a major headache/heartache if I look back over my life. Either professionally by being dishonorable and owing me money, personally with backstabbing and gossip and, to the extreme, some truly awful cunt behavior like sleeping with the guy I confessed to be in love with (one room down so I could hear it all and without apology... pure female poison/competition)....I'm not even sure I could come up with one man who did any of this to me,
LMAO R25. Seriously? Don't you have any gay friends?
Of course. But had to work with/hang with women too along the way. Read the thread's topic again, douchebag.
My comment was to your last sentence, idiot @ R28. It's hilarious that you say only the women in your life have been backstabbing, gossiping, thieving cunts. Any reasonable person to assume you have never dated or befriended a GAY MAN.
The most irritating MOMMY ISSUES come from the MOMMIES themselves, the ones who come here expecting special treatment because they got knocked up like any dog or cat, and then have the audacity to place themselves at the center of everything.
R5, most gay men in real life do not dislike women (even "fraus") to the psychotic extent that the same handful of pathetic posters on DL would have you believe. Most gay men get along just fine with women and have many female friends/family/etc. In general, DL brings out the worst, most bitchy side in people, and this is not indicative of the real world.
Cher and Bette Midler do not belong on your list, OP. They have more talent than the other wannabes and their longevity in the business proves it. Cher has supported gay causes and she.has a transgendered son. Bette, off and on over the years, has as well. Jeez, do your homework before you accuse.
OP, how DARE YOU!?
Take a pill and calm the fuck down, R30.
R31 I see what you mean. Thanks for your response.
Idiotic question does not merit a response.
It's clear to me that nobody is reading anybody else's posts - we've had at least three people explain this in the same exact way.
[quote]Nobody has an answer to the original question?
No, because the premise of the question is invalid.
I'm not the butchest guy around, but I have never understood the "diva worship" mentality either. Like I said, I am as gay as the next guy, but I have never found Streisand, Midler, Madonna, Cher or Diana Ross music appealing. I grew up in the 70s, on Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, The Rolling Stones, The Ramones. None of the gay men I know are into the "diva types". I lived in New York City for a few years and did know a few guys who were into that stuff, but most of them were very pretentious and shallow. I've never understood the stereotype because I've known very few men who got off to that syrupy shit.
I think most women who become gay icons suffered some sort of adversity and overcame it. They were a weaker minority in a world dominated by men, were almost crushed by it, but survived stronger than before. Gay men related to that or wanted to. I don't think it holds true so much anymore, but that's my understand of how we chose our icons several decades ago.
I'm way more of an Eagles guy than I ever was Streisand. Honestly, I find her repulsive.
I'm gay and I love Tool, Nine Inch Nails, Queens of the Stone Age, System of a Down and Rage Against the Machine. No divas in my Ipod.
Well, Trent Reznor is kinda a diva.
I've always been into The Beatles, Elvis Presley, The Stones, Zeppelin, Eagles, Rush... No Liza for me
You know what I hate? Gay guys who are proud that they don't have stereotypical qualities, like a penchant for divas. Honey, you're still gay. Get over it.
I am a walking stereotype and proud of it. I love Britney, Madonna, Cher, Diana, Bette, Babs, Gaga, Judy, and especially Liza. Reason: these women love and care about me. Everything they do is for me and my gay brothers and sisters. What did the fucking Eagles ever do for gay rights? Not a fucking thing, girlfriend. They hate you because you're gay and a "pervert". What did Led Zepplin ever dofor anyone except sing except that racist southern pride rock shit like Sweet Home Alabama? My "DIVAS" as you call them, worship us. Their music will far out-live that hetero rock trash which will be forgotten in ten years time. Bitches, please.
A Proud Stereotypical Queen
Since you are tossing around the "Bitch, pleases", I'm going to throw one back to you. Lynyrd Skynyrd did the "southern pride rock" and sang "Sweet Home Alabama"... Not Led ZeppElin. Zep was a British band (and quite liberal, I might add). Educate yourself, buddy.
R45 I DO have a lot of "stereotypical gay qualities" (I'm FAR from butch), I just do not have a penchant for lounge music or wailing divas. I do not think I am better than anyone else because of that, but I just let it be known that we're not all "cookie-cutter" people who all like the same music and have all the same interests. Respectfully.
[quote] What did Led Zepplin ever dofor anyone except sing except that racist southern pride rock shit like Sweet Home Alabama?
Not sure if serious...?
R49 I love "Fool In The Rain". THAT was an artistic triumph. Good choice and good taste, my friend!
R51, I was obsessed with the meter and polyrhythmic groove in this song when I was 12. My family was poor, and I didn't have access to musical instruments or education, but having music like this to listen to and analyze in the 70s kept my imagination active.
oh yes. you hetero-wannabe rockers are so much better than us bottom-feeding Liza worshipping queens. i tremble in your presence becuase of your greatness.
R53 At least you're clear on that. LOL.
[quote]Do you really prefer Melissa Ethridge to Bette Midler? Really?
I think you and your kind would be surprised by the numbers of us on DL for whom this is true.
Do any of you guys really listen to Britney Spears? She was popular for about 7 minutes in 1999. What the fuck has she done since then? Just shaving her head and X-Factor. Certainly NOTHING for gay rights. She's a selfish party girl with no regard for anyone or anything but herself. Her music was trash, on par with the "classics" by Lindsay Lohan, Jessica Simpson and Hannah Fucking Montana. Bubblegum tripe.
Justin Timberlake's Dick in a Box
R55 AMEN! Thank you.
Yeah, even most of the elder gays I know are not into Judy Garland or Liza or any of that. A few are, but it's a minority of gay men. I think it's mostly guys in NYC and "artsy" areas that are into those women. Surely none of the people my age (25-ish) like that stuff.
I live in NYC and am over 40.
I cannot imagine a gay man under 25 in NYC who is an ardent Liza or Bette fan. I don't think they have much idea or interest in who they are.
I'm 38 and I'm into The Killers, Green Day, Red Hot Chili Peppers and things like that. Even dudes I know who are ten or fifteen years older than me aren't into Bette, Madonna, etc. I'm sure a large number of gay men are into them, bless their hearts, but I just am not aware of their legions of fans.
LOL, the only man I know that listens to Barbra Streisand, Bette Midler and Cher is my oldest brother. He is 49, straight, married, ultra-butch, and works on an oil platform. I am 45, gay, not butch and I love Alternative rock, classic rock and Industrial. Go figure.
I think some gay men who grew up genuinely oppressed see the "divas" as some sort of unifying, expressive force for all of us. Which is sweet, in theory.
But a lot of us have outgrown them. I can appreciate the art of, say, the young Barbra Streisand, but have no use for her current work, or for her as some symbol or ally. I can tell my own story better than a 70-year-old woman in a spangly dress can, thanks.
At work they play the radio and keep it set on the "adult contemporary" station. The women in the office are always assuming that, because I am gay, that I know everything about the songs of Bette, Barbra, Pink, etc. They'll hear a song playing and ask me what year it came out, or if a trivia question is asked on air, they will assume I know the answer. I know less about that stuff than they do.
The statement/question by the OP is essentially an unhinged rant that cannot be answered. Elements of the statement have nothing to do with each other or the the subjective tastes of people including the OP's stereotype for gay men.
I can appreciate the talent of most of the people the OP listed (except Britney and Beyonce), but they hold no place in my heart. My heart lies with Nirvana, R.E.M., U2, Metallica, Melissa Etheridge, Soundgarden, The Killers, Black Sabbath, David Bowie, Queen, The Beatles, Dream Theater and Pink Floyd. I respect everyone elses taste, but it does not reflect my own.
I think that any gay man who says he doesn't like Barbra Streisand or Bette Midler or Cher or Madonna is in denial. Perhaps self-loathing. It's hardwired within us at birth to love and recognize talent. Sorry, but it's true.
R66 Exactly. Their trying to impress the straight people they know by showing how "un-gay" their music choices are. Phonies!
If all gays listen to those ladies then I guess I'm an anomaly, because I listen to roots rock, jazz and country music.
[quote] I love Britney, Madonna, Cher, Diana, Bette, Babs, Gaga, Judy, and especially Liza. Reason: these women love and care about me.
They are/were extremely well known/successful performers, who have presumably promoted their music in regions/to people who have the money/interest to buy their music and to attend their concerts. As performers become more successful, however, presumably the extent to which they know particular fans reduces and the extent to which they have problematic fans increases. So their opportunity to 'love' and 'care about' fans would seem to change dramatically.
Less well known performers have a much better chance of knowing a greater percentage of their fans. And although they can also have problematic fans, they can also interact with fans in a more on-going and, in some cases, develop real friendships.
OP - I think a more interesting question is why you can't type the word fuck with out that douchey little *.
Anybody who idolizes Britney Spears is a dumb twat.
R46 You are delusional if you actually think those women give a flying fuck about YOU and the rest of their fans. They care about how much cash you're going to grease their palms with. Otherwise, you're nothing to them. As someone who has been around musical performers from all genres, I can tell you this is the case for most of them. There are exceptions, however, most of the ones you named (especially, say Madonna) don't give a good god damn about you. Sad, but true.
R72 - Absolutely perfect. You expressed my sentiments exactly. Several have done good things to help gays over the years, but the rest can suck my ass through a straw (Britney, Madonna, etc.).
Some of you cling hard to stereotypes you claim to abhor.
And some are hypocritically prejudiced beyond belief.
Sad all around.
madonna loves the gay community. anybody who says she doesnt is a liar and a twat
I beg to differ. Madonna does not care for anyone but herself. She likes to occasionally jack-off the gay community to make us think she supports us, but she doesn't give a fuck about us.
A few of the gay singers I support include Freddie Mercury, Rob Halford and Melissa Etheridge & Elton John. Love 'em.
I'm proud NOT to be a stereotype. I listen exclusively to 70s/80s DISCO LOL. I am what I am, and FUCK THE HATERS. PS: I loved Barbra when she went disco too (Main Event, Enough is Enough, etc.). SO FUCK OFF if you have a problem with me being a stereotype. LOL.
"Why always the females?"
I don't know, why do you like certain colors over others?
There's just something in the female voice that I hear and respond to, that in the male voice leaves me cold.
I know Sinatra is great, but I prefer Ella.
I know Tony Bennett is wonderful but I like Peggy Lee better.
Why ask why?