I was raised as one, finding that many guys convert so they can have all of this high church drama without the RC bigotry. My own experience was rather low (we had NO incense in any church I attended).
Moreover, I know a couple of queens who sneer at Bishop Spong because he's "too low" -- ARGH!
Saint Mary the Virgin on 46th Street is high church and high camp.
Cradle Episcopalian here, also gay but tired of all the converts who want RC liturgy without the guilt. What questions do you have?
Can you explain what you mean by "too low?"
I'm new to religion (yes, seriously) but have been studying via a comparative religion class. I understand the Episcopalians split into two over several issues, gay members and bishops being the main one...?
Raised low church, never could stand the high-church rituals. Atheist now.
No questions for you - just wondering if I was right about liking all the pageantry, which I find tedious.
Ooh, wait. Found my own answer. Sorry.
[quote] Low church is a term of distinction in the Church of England or other Anglican churches initially designed to be pejorative. During the series of doctrinal and ecclesiastic challenges to the established church in the 17th century, commentators and others began to refer to those groups favouring the theology, worship and hierarchical structure of Anglicanism (such as the episcopate) as the truest form of Christianity as 'high church'. In contrast, by the early 18th century those theologians and politicians who sought more reform in the English church and a greater liberalisation of church structure were called "low church".
They have nice hymns.
Earnest -- some convert queens think a low service is somehow "not enough" - they want a more traditional RC high service with incense, and chanting and who knows what else going on! The gay thing is, indeed, divisive, but not what I was referring to.
So was the Vicar of Dibley low or high?
Seemed fairly low to me - her services were about what I was used to as a kid.
One in three; three in one.
Where there's four Episcopalians there's a fifth.
A Southern Episcopalian here. Cradle.
The converts are the WORST!
I stopped going to church many years ago because of those idiots who want to bring some of their old church with them. Ugh!
And for the record there is NOTHING WORSE that a newly confirmed Episcopalian who was a Southern Baptist.
Why would a southern baptist convert to Episcopalian, other than snob value? That's just weird! My parents converted after they were married (in my mom's Universalist church) and before I was born. My dad was raised a (nominal) northern Presbyterian.
Did you guys have to go to confirmation class? We went on retreats instead.
Why do Baptists do half the shit they do?
2/3rds of the South's historical ills can be laid squarely on the Baptists.
The Southern Baptist Conference has as bad a child sex abuse problem as Rome.
"Did you guys have to go to confirmation class? We went on retreats instead."
Confirmation class after school. In the Guild Parlor.
[quote]The Southern Baptist Conference has as bad a child sex abuse problem as Rome
The same can be said of the Mormons. The big difference is that the Mormons know how to keep it out of the media.
Oh yeah, wanted to say that although I'm obviously a lapsed episcopalian, I do like Spong although I'm happier outside of the church.
[quote]And for the record there is NOTHING WORSE that a newly confirmed Episcopalian who was a Southern Baptist.
We had a saying: So long as Baptists keep marrying Catholics, we will ALWAYS have Episcopalians.
I was raised a Presbyterian, but needed something more socially (not to mention doctrinally) liberal. I stumbled upon a "radical" Episcopal church in D.C., which turned out to be high church in the sense of using lots of incense, having lots of processions, the whole "smells and bells" bit, but low church in terms of allegiance to hierarchy. So for me it was the best of both worlds.
Love this comment on Episcopalians from "Designing Women."
That reminds me of the time Shirley Q. Liquor'ch character was "suspended (for bad behavior)" from her own Baptist church, so went to an Episcopalian one: "Sitting, standing, kneeling ... and juggling the prayer book, hymnal, and bulletin. I call that 'Religious Jazzercize'!"
My mom likes that one as a Congregational friend attended a family christening service with her, with similar remark.
I am. Cradle . My church growing up was low church. I haven't been in years. I go to a very progressive Methodist church here in Dallas, but I will never "leave" the Episcopal Church.
R17, What were the retreats like? Same sex or mixed? Any sexual tension/fun?
I do not consider myself Episcopalian by religious affiliation either, but "ethnically" ... yes.
R24 -- OP is the one who said he/she went on a confirmation retreat. I have never heard of such.
I was just answering OP's question posed at r14.
I've always respected the theology, warmth and inclusiveness of the Episcopalian Church in the United States, but could never convert. I was raised Roman and realized that I would just be trying to reshape the Episcopal church into everything I wanted the Catholic church to be. It wouldn't be fair to me or them.
I despise Episcopalians who convert to Catholicism because they're shocked by the social liberalism of Anglicanism. They're not doing gay and women Catholics any favors.
I love Anglican charismatics (there is an entire denomination of Episcopal Charismatics) who combine the meaning of liturgy with the power and presence of the Holy Spirit. Episcopal charismatics undermine the widespread perception that Episcopalians are not fervent, biblical, and expressive about their faith in Christ. It's like a marriage of Pentecostalism and Anglicanism.
Another Cradler here too. I stopped going for a which and toyed with converting to RC (hated the hierarchy) and veered to UU/Quaker as well). Settled back with the good 'ole Es.
My favorite parish was when I lived in Austin in the early 70s. The church was on the way to the lakes, so the only 'dress code' was to not wear bikinis. The parish has two church buildings -- a stone one for the colder months and the summer church with one wall of glass overlooking an open field. Everything would stop (sermon, songs, etc) when deer would come to the feeders near the windows. The congregation was very into environmentalism (recycling, planting trees, walking/biking) way before Green was 'in'.
My present E church is very socially liberal, anti-war, and LGBTQ-embracing. It is in a college town, and all rooms and public spaces are open 24/7 at exam weeks for anyone seeking a quiet study space.
R27 - The group in the link you provided isn't part of the Episcopal church, and they aren't Anglican either (not being in union with the Archbishop of Canterbury). They are also anti-woman and anti-gay.
Rowan Williams, leader of Church of England, leaving office
It's funny how Catholics and Episcopalans in my area have their own saints. When I hear "St Luke" or "St Ann," I know it's an E church.
RCs call Mary "Blessed" or "Holy" or "Our Lady." "Church of the Blessed Virgin Mary" and "Our Lady of (whatever)" is RC. The Episcopalians call her "St Mary." RCs never call her that.
I know there are RC churches called St Ann's or St Anne's. But not around here. They're all E. Also, in my area "St Paul's" is also E, while "St Peter and St Paul" are RC.
[quote]Why would a southern baptist convert to Episcopalian, other than snob value?
Well, mostly that's the reason, IMO. You're successful, you want to shake a little red clay off your boots, you want your children to mix with whatever passes for society in your town, then you might want to become an Episcopalian.
That's not always the reason, of course, but it's what people often suspect...
I have a gay Catholic convert friend (raised Methodist), who says the same thing you do about incoming Anglicans, [R26].
[R25] -- I am wondering what is actually covered in Episcopalian confirmation classes? My "retreat" experience was back in the mid-70s. I do not recall much about it; the kids from two parishes in neighboring towns went off to a Boy Scout camp about an hour and a half away for two weekends. The only thing I can recall us doing as far as "activities" go was that we had to write down our "sins" (I have NO IDEA what the hell I would've written), which were then burned as a batch ... while we sang Kumbayah. I am *NOT* making that up! That church now has two women ministers, one of whom is openly gay.
I've always found St. Barnabas to be about the WASPiest of E church names. One my funniest stories was visiting relatives, and being HORRIFIED that they CHARGED for items at coffee hour!
The Rockefellers were Baptists. So far as I know, they never converted.
The Southern Baptists are far different from their Yankee brethren and sisters. Rockefellers were not Southern Baptists.
The Southern Baptists broke off in the 19th century over slavery.
To this very day Southern Baptists are still ass-backwards on most social issues.
Nobody said the Rockefellers were Southern Baptists.
They were Baptists.
[quote]That reminds me of the time Shirley Q. Liquor was "suspended (for bad behavior)" from her own Baptist church, so went to an Episcopalian one: "Sitting, standing, kneeling ... and juggling the prayer book, hymnal, and bulletin. I call that 'Religious Jazzercize'!"
In a similar vein, I love what Betty Butterfield has to say about Methodists: "A poor man's Presbyterians, or else people who has left the Anglican church because they got tired of squattin', or Baptists who'd gone back to drinkin' and didn't want to get judged."
Here ya go, R33.
Here's the Confirmation Curriculum for Teenagers used by the Episcopal Diocese of Alabama.
Glancing it over just now, I remember some of the stuff we covered in the late '60s.
Our family home was down the street from our parish church and I recall riding my bike down there after school 2X a week for six weeks or so.
Then the Bishop came after our class was over; he did his thing in a special evening church service and boom, we were little Episcopalians.
I stopped going to church regularly in college, only sporadically now. Mainly just for family funerals; family weddings in years gone by.
Nearing 60 years old now. Agnostic with strong atheist undertones.
[quote]Then the Bishop came after our class was over; he did his thing in a special evening church service and boom, we were little Episcopalians.
Did it hurt?
Oh you little Oirish imp, C-Aaron!
I was a bit taken aback that Methodists only have communion once a month!
I always thought the E. thing of having the pre-confirmation kids exit partway through the service for Sunday school a bit strange. Our family's church attendance was sporadic (at best), so I don't have much of a recollection of Sunday school. The kids at our church generally went to various private schools, so for the most part, we were strangers.
Just me - or was your Episcopalian background stereotypically WASP'y, too?
All religious people are silly... picking and choosing their "fundamental beliefs" to conform to their own pre-existing prejudices. It's all made up baloney, and very little of it even has any decent philosophy in it any more.
Why in the hell would anyone want to subscribe to a religion? It's so utterly pointless.
Is the Church of England Episcopal or Anglican?
In my opinion thery're all "paths to the one" so you go with the option that works best for you (eventually).
[quote]Is the Church of England Episcopal or Anglican?
The Church of England is, by definition, the same as the Anglican church.
HOWEVER, there is something called the Anglican Communion, comprised of 38 autonomous "provinces," each with its own primate (head bishop) and governing structure. These provinces may take the form of national churches (such as in Canada, Uganda, or Japan) or a collection of nations (such as the West Indies, Central Africa, or Southeast Asia). The Episcopal Church of the United States of America is one of those "provinces."
Went to an Episcopal CHurch for a while, but like a lot of people, found the services cold, not very biblically-focused. I prefer not to judge peoples' hearts, but on the surface, the church seemed more focused on ritual than really worshiping God with all their heart and passion. I look for worship that is Christ-centered and allows people to exuberantly express their love for God, and the Episcopal church I went to just did not. I am attending a great church now that worships God fully and exuberantly. People there make Christ the center of their life, not some fashionable accessory.
Did someone say accessories?
R46 -- at Episcopal churches, the coffee hour IS the primary sacrament! The actual church service is a mere prelude.
r48, the Episcopal Bishop used to lament the rapidly declining attendance and membership of Episcopal churches nationwide. He said people are not attracted to churches that are "mere social clubs or religious coffee houses."
"He said people are not attracted to churches that are 'mere social clubs or religious coffee houses.'"
That bishop obviously doesn't know members of his flock very well.
[quote]some convert queens think a low service is somehow "not enough" - they want a more traditional RC high service with incense, and chanting and who knows what else going on!
That's so funny because it's becoming rare to find that sort of service in Catholic churches. I was raised as a Catholic and there was a little incense and "chanting" around communion either at my home parish or where I went to school (home parish didn't have a school). This from the '70s to early '80s. Later during sporadic attendance, I rarely saw incense. Some singing before communion.
It's easier to be an Episcopalian than RC. The E's have only one sin - The Sin of Poor Taste.
The Baptist Rockefellers built Riverside Church in New York.
With which group does the AME (African Methodist Episcopal) align themselves?
We let the Methodists field that one.
OP bringing back this thread to ask non-converts what Sunday school was like? I was baptized and confirmed (it was the 70's, we went on two "retreats" rather than confirmation classes), but attended Sunday school sporadically - what was Sunday school like for you?
If you are a later convert, what was that like -- did you have to attend confirmation class or something?
I had not been to a service in a very long time, and perhaps I have spent far too much time at Datalounge, because I thought that chasuble thing was a caftan!
I didn't recall the bell chiming (Ding! Ding! Ding!) during pre-communion consecration either.
[quote]And for the record there is NOTHING WORSE that a newly confirmed Episcopalian who was a Southern Baptist.
I see you've met my mother.
The Voice of the Night
Why would a southern Baptist join a pro-gay denomination?
Do Anglican churches in England even hold services every Sunday? Isn't it a waste of heat and electricity?
And a waste of perfectly good brain matter pretending to believe any of it!
As my father always said, it's THE social climbing religion. There's a church in NYC (St. James on Mad) which basically functions like a country club. And probably about 10 percent of them are original Episopalians. A lot of Irish Catholic types (like the publisher of the great Quest magazine) who convert.
But I think the funniest thing had to be reading RAMONA AND MARIO SINGER'S wedding announcement (it was linked to, once, somewhere) - they got married in an Episcopal ceremony. Who the fuck did they think they were fooling?