At What Point Was The Turning Point?

I'm referring to the period of time in which so many people in the U.S. no longer gave a good goddamn how they looked? It seems to me that I recall even through as recently as the 80's, a sizeable number of people still did their best to look their best when they went out into the world, even people with limited funds did the best they could with what they were able to afford. Now it appears that probably as many as 80% of the U.S. population looks as if they may as well live in a third world country. Most of them are a sight for sore eyes...and that's being generous. This is particularly true of men, but women aren't close behind. (I love the look I see on a lot of women: sloppy sweatshirt and pants, running shoes, dirty hair, no make-up and a baseball cap...and, then, as if that makes up for everything else, a pair of earrings. Talk about tacky.) At work, we have a number of people from Europe and elsewhere come to visit and many of them have commented on this (although in a very roundabout way, in order not to offend). So..what is there about the American psyche that just doesn't give a shit about appearance? I had always more or less believed that wanting to look your best was a basic human characteristic, but obviously I was wrong.

• It's a class issue.

• When denim became a work choice. Began in the late 70s.

• Sometime in the 1990s. Late 90s, I think. It was over by the 2000s.

• It's all about the rise of Walmart. Seriously.

  http://www.dailymarkets.com/economy/2011/07/18/walmart-the-most-successful-retailer-in-history/

• When modesty lost its grip in our culture.

• You sound tedious, OP.

• Things started to go to hell in the early 70's, especially when synthetics and leisure suits came in, and pantsuits for women became acceptable. That was the slippery slope, and it was further greased by the white trash chic of the Carter years, i.e., when red necks started wearing pony tails. Europeans shouldn't necessarily talk. I've been at evening performances at the Met, and plenty of Germans show up in jeans.

• I think our overscaled, overstressed, HFCS-soaked society is driving people nuts. People with decent jobs don't understand how badly the working class is treated today. I met a man who worked in a snack food factory until recently. They made him work six hours a day, seven days a week for more than six months straight. Not a single day off, and he wasn't even getting overtime. Then there are all the proles working 2 and 3 jobs trying to get by. I think a lot of overworked people with untreated depression have simply stopped giving a shit how they look.

• All this, and no mention of obesity. DL, you disappoint me. Also, it was in the 1990s that younger employees began showing up in our office in the summer wearing shorts. Stupid twits, but there you are.

• [quote]Most of them are a sight for sore eyes...and that's being generous. wtf? This contradicts everything else in your post. I think you have your idioms confused.

• The average American is down-trodden. Bad grooming is the least important part of the problem.

• At least you don't have people going out to cafes and shops in their pyjamas.

• I just watched an old I Love Lucy where Ethel refuses to ride the subway in blue jeans....times have changed.

• Yes, the beginning was the 1970s, but the BIG drop downward was the 1990s with Walmart, Dress-down Friday (then everyday), rap, and Made in China.

• OP, this is a minor side issue about your post - I believe you misuse the phrase "a sight for sore eyes." My understanding of that phrase is that it's appropriate for someone you're happy to see. In other words, your eyes are sore from having to look at or deal with unpleasant things, but then someone you love shows up, so you exclaim that they are "a (welcome) sight for sore eyes!"

• I find the current trend of wearing pajama pants in public to be appalling. A friend of mine calls it "give-up" clothing.

  http://www.not-okay.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Not-okay-to-wear-pajama-pants-in-public.png

• Good point, R8. They don't have time to shop for clothes. And aren't paid enough to be able to shop for clothes (or anything!). And when they finally get to the store, it is all full of crap. The masses could buy quality clothes made of cotton and wool in the 50s and 60s. Now these are luxury items.

• It feels like everyone has given up.

• I agree with R1 that it is a class issue. Still, I would say that it began in the sixties. JFK killed the hat industry for men...a small change but a watershed moment. The Hippie Movement ushered in the Casual Age. The Preppy style of the eighties was, like the Reagan administration, a conservative backlash against a 1968 ethos.

  BonniePrinceCharlie

• Toss-up between the implosion of Arthur Anderson and the series "Seinfeld". This was one of the last companies that enforced a dress code for men and women. Seinfeld provided a template (mom jeans, rehab tennis shoes, and dark shirt with leather jacket for men and Depression era orphan Elaine for women)

• R16 At least she has proper clothing on top. Here people will go out in pyjamas, slippers and dressing gown. Just awful. I cringe for them.

• When people started losing their jobs, OP. Think about it.

• I also cringe, r21. I mean, pajamas in public? That is truly low-class, and I see it all the time now. I don't even go to my mailbox in pajamas.

  r16

• I went into my backyard to put rubbish in the dustbin one morning and got severely chewed by my OH just for that.

• By your Ohio?

• I blame Katharine Hepbarn and those damn pantsuits.

  Ann%20Miller

• It was the late 1960s. Really. I was young but I lived through it. Men were still wearing hats up until the early 1960s. JFK killed that by going hatless. He started a trend. 1963, 1964, 1965 people still dressed nicely. The Beatles, the British invasion had an impact with long hair but the mods were dressed in slim suits and peg pants. Swinging London was in full swing in 65 and '66 but still, the fashion was to dress well. By 1966 the hippie counter-culture thing was in full-force in San Francisco, but it had not yet gone mainstream. Then the slide began. 1967: "The Summer of Love", "Hair", "Sargent Pepper's", "LSD".... and the diffusion of color television (now everything had to be bright and garish) . 1968: Student riots in the US and Europe. By the late 1960s hippie gear was now fashionable. And we never really recovered. Add to that: 1971: "Shaft", "Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song", ...Isaac Hayes.... ghetto culture takes hold of popular culture. Early 1970's: Men start wearing salmon color "leasure suits" with belts and big collars. So: In 1964 it's skinny ties, pleatless pants, slim suits...and just 10 years later it's bell bottom jeans, pastel leasure suits and other drek. Then came disco...then came preppy (baggy chinos, baggy shirts)... Then came the t-shirts, sweat shirts, running shoes, track suits, baseball caps, shorts ....and adult males started dressing like 12 year olds. And so here we are to today. I will tell you this however: there are a lot of young people who dress much better now than young people did years ago. There are so, so many great places to buy stylish clothing at good prices. 30 years ago it was much more difficult. Men can dress nicely now and not look out of place.

• I think the straight man meant his 'other half', R25.

• Other Half r25. Sorry.

• How can people look good when they are not paid enough, have to buy crap made in China, and then, if they somehow manage to get something decent, they wind up getting chewed by Ohio??

• When Anne Bancroft threw that drink in Shirley MacLaine's face.

• I'm not convinced it's a class issue, because I've seen some very wealthy people who dressed like slobs. The sweatsuits-and-gold-earrings look is surprisingly common.

• Out of touch white gay men controlling the fashion industry.

• R33 speaks truth

• At Midnight Mass on Xmas eve, two lesbians wore filthy, fluffy bedroom slippers.

• What "fashion industry"? Everyone is wearing rags (sweatshirts, t-shirts, sweatpants) made in China.

• It isn't tedious to dress. Grown men from the US were turned away from the bar at mamounia for looking like overgrown toddlers or straight off the tennis courts. Who the hell do these guys think they are? Shower, and dress like an adult simpletons. We aren't at country mart.

  grow%20up%20morons

• We wear sweatpants and sneakers outside because it's so much easier to dodge the bullets that are whizzing by our heads.

• [quote] Out of touch white gay men controlling the fashion industry. Do straight women ever take responsibilty for their own actions? Or do they always find a minority group to blame?

• At hotel du cap last year lunch was full of toddler men wearing gangsta hats back to front and tats. Smoking while eating. Sad. The staff know it, see it, and standards have dropped accordingly. Snipe away, but once it's gone, it's hard to get it back. In any place, any shape, any form. Even at your own kitchen table no matter how simple the meal. Perching a crystal embellished cap back to front is a joke. Or even a simple simon one. Wearing a hat, at the table, for a man, is pathetic. Unless you are 90, or 3. It's the manifestation of current idiocy. When the staff look good and the guests look ridiculous, game over.

• OP does sound tedious. He also sound 10,000 years old.

• Yes, he remembers a time, 10,000 years ago when people looked good. Like intelligent adults. Or adults with self-respect.

• (R30) how old are you? you can't "afford" to look good? I grew up in china, people lived in tiny apartments with no privacy. And still looked good. Western twits whine like bitches. Nothing to aspire to, no pride, no energy.

  get%20a%20life%20western%20bitches

• Straight women ARE a minority group, fucktard. Just remember, it's the WHITE MAN who's running things.

  lesbian%20who%20pays%20attention

• (R22) classic entitled twerp.

• I'd have to agree a lot of it is just "giving up". Used to be I'd NEVER consider being seen in public in sweats and now I don't care. Believe me, I'd like to find something "decent" to wear but it's a pain in the ass. I'm overweight and over 40 and a female so no one makes clothes for me. I don't have much choice anymore. And don't even get me started on the hooker shoes. If someone has a suggestion for decent clothes for an overweight, over 40 les, I'd love to hear it!

• (R46) nonsense. Think again.

  never%20submit%20to%20mediocrity

• Yeah R44, you're being forced to buy things you don't like. Hypnotized out of your money by gay men. Sometimes we even force you to buy ugly clothes at gunpoint. Idiots like you are more responsibe than anyone for holding women back. You're saying they don't know their own minds, too scatterbrained to not be badly influenced. Women like you prove my sexist grandfather to be right. Thankfully the women in my family did their best to prove him wrong and mostly succeeded

• Lane Bryant.

• I think it might be an age issue, too. I'm 44 and, even though I have closets full of clothes to wear, I find dressing just to got to Target to be ridiculous. It's easier just to put on sweats or scrub pants when I'm really not out there to impress anyone and I;m getting to the age where I really don't care whether people think I'm appropriately dressed for picking up a liter of coke at Acme.

• R46, Try L.L. Bean. It's a little stodgy, but maybe that's a good thing. I really am surprised by this post. Maybe I don't see what most people see everyday. Granted, I do live in Connecticut. You just don't walk around in pajamas.

  Muriel%20Puce.

• Hissssssss!

  The%20OP%20at%20the%20world

• Because it's harder to put on regular pants than sweatpants, R50? Please explain why clothing with a waistband that needs a belt is so time consuming. I'm fascinated by your logic.

• r46 is a troll.

• If it's the weekend, I don't see what's so awful about wearing decent nylon sweatpants and a shirt and gym shoes to go to Target. However, there are others who wear really shabby clothes ALL THE TIME. There's a difference even in your casual wear. You can look put together in casual wear, but many people don't make the effort.

• R51 I also live in Connecticut (Fairfield County) and I see slobs in sweatpants and pajamas all the time. I was at Target just yesterday and there were a few of them there. I mean really, how fucking hard is it to put on a clean pair of jeans and a decent shirt before you leave the house? And this is Connecticut, I can only imagine what the rest of the country looks like.

  r16

• The fashion industry that creates ever uglier, unwearable, and frankly stupid overpriced "clothing," r36, and then expresses astonishment that the public would rather wander the streets looking like refugees from the "third world" than continue to line their pockets.

  Anna%20Wintour

• Sorry, r54, not a troll. Just someone stating her opinion and frustration. I'd rather be part of the solution vs part of the problem. It's disgusting to me to see people running around in pj bottoms and flip flops but some of it just has to be that they don't care - it's too much trouble to find clothes that fit well and shoes to match. Then have a coat that goes with the shoes and clothes. It's just easier to throw on whatever happens to be lying around and not give a shit how you look. Sad, but true.

  r46

• R57: Oh c'mon.... there are so many places where one can buy well-priced attractive basic clothing. And if it's too much trouble to get to a store, there is the internet and quick home delivery.

• When manufacturers started putting Lycra in everything.

• R56, I'm in Litchfield. Perhaps in smaller areas, people would see and talk about you behind your back. Peer pressure isn't always a bad thing.

  Muriel%20Puce

• Flip flops in public too. Why would you want to expose your bare feet on filthy streets? I just don't understand it.

• A pair of clean jeans and a nice sweater is no more hassle to wear than sweatpants and a t-shirt. Still very casual but it looks a damned sight better. Especially with a non-athletic shoe.

• I agree, R63. Someone on the thread said it all began with jeans. Well, now they can't even wear jeans.

• I WANNA BE COMFY!!!

• I am in Seattle and no one looks as the OP describes at all?

• [quote]rap Honey, if anything "rap" and hip hop culture has made some people dress up MORE than they would otherwise. Even if the clothes are tacky, a lot of people in that world get DRESSED UP. Not to mention the amount of care put into hair and nails.

• You're right, R67. Sometimes it looks good, but sometimes it looks bad (track suits, baggy pants, baseball caps).

• You're a strange person, R20.

• I do blame the women's fashion industry, at least in part. When the entire industry tells women that the only thing the modern woman shojld wear is a girl's short dress and agonizing platform heels, many sensible women do decide that the fashion industry is full of shit. That said, I do wish that people made just a little more effort. If you want to go out in shorts and a t-shirt, is a little bit of interesting color too much to ask?

  http://s2.favim.com/orig/37/blonde-dress-fashion-hat-heels-Favim.com-303238.jpg

• [quote]Believe me, I'd like to find something "decent" to wear but it's a pain in the ass. I'm overweight and over 40 and a female GROSS.

• No, R20 makes sense. Putting that Jerry Seinfeld look on TV normalized that behavior for millions.

• Americans don't travel. They don't see how the rest of the world behaves and looks. Hell, Americans don't even seek out foreign film. There simply are no external influences on Americans. This is why Americans look and act so ridiculous and have such odd political ideas.

• The mandatory whore look for women is a whole other thread that has to do with the feminist backlash that started in the 80s. This is the slob and rags thread.

• And yet, we rule the world, r73.

• OP, "A sight for sore eyes" does not mean what you seem to think it means. Oh, dear.

• No one in sweatpants is ruling the world. They don't even have healthcare. They'd realize how outrageous that was if they knew about what goes on in the rest of the world.

• ROFL, we rule the world?!? Oh, you poor deluded 'Murrikan sheep child!

  LOL

• R46 Try Rachel Pally

  http://www.rachelpally.com/

• or Harari for comfortable fashionable clothing. If you live in southern California Rachel has factory sales every six months or so.

  http://www.hararidesign.com/

• No, you don't rule the world at all, r78. you are not one of us.

• OP, When dress no longer became an indicator of social status. Look at photos of today's billionaires. They rarely dress up.

• Who gives a shit what other people wear? Why are you people so fucking consumed with other people? It's like a whole culture of Gladys Kravitzes, peeking out at life through their curtains and yelling "Abner! Abner! Someone is wearing sweat pants to the Walmart!" and clutching their pearls. Get a fucking life. If you have all of this extra time on your hands, donate to help hungry children or shovel snow for elderly people. You have too much energy you're not using that you are wasting on giving a shit about things you have absolutely no control over. Only small minded people focus so much on what everyone else is doing and trying to control them. Take up knitting, learn guitar, sew patches on your jean jackets, any fucking thing.

• This.

  http://nowaygirl.com/latest-fashion/fashion-fail-ladies-please-dont-dress-like-this-in-the-new-year/

• R83: I judge people by how they appear ...and so do you.

• R46 also Eileen Fisher.

  http://www.eileenfisher.com/EileenFisher.jsp

• "Sew patches on your jean jacket." Really? This is a phrase that sprang to mind? That is an eldergay hiss if I ever heard one.

• R79 / R80 - What everyday woman wears that kind of clothing? Are you sure that's not where you buy your caftans?

• If only posters had brought your point up two or three times before, disinterested R76. Oh, dear.

• I seem to recall a Seinfeld episode where Jerry was taking someone to task about sweatpants.

• women entered the workforce and suddenly didn't have as much time to do more than wash and dry clothes. Ironing takes time and dry cleaning costs money, that many many people can't afford.

• R91 This morning before going to work I ironed a shirt and pants. About 10 minutes of my time.

• It doesn't have to do with women entering the workforce and ironing. People (male and female) do not even wear shirts or blouses that require ironing. It is due to the casual who cares thing.

• The "grunge" look from Marc Jacobs for Perry Ellis in 1992 was the beginning of the end.

• R88 I live in LA and wear that stuff all the time. Though I doubt you are going to wear it the Upson's in Darien. However Rachel Pally's clothing was featured on Oprah as one of her favorite things.

• r93 you are a fucking dipshit. the reason nobody wears those clothes is because nobody irons. the reason nobody irons is because its a significant investment of time. Before women entered the workforce , people did wear those clothes and people did iron them. It is not a coincidence that the casual trend coincides with the rise of women in the workforce. When women were mostly at home doing housework, it was possible to dress more formally, more of the time, because there was someone at home to iron, starch,hand lauder delicates, cook multiple course meals from scratch etc. we don't dress as nicely, we don't eat as much home prepared food, we do not keep out houses as neat in the 1950's, because most households do not have a member for whom taking care of these tasks is a full time job. For 99% of the families in this country Both adults need to work to make it work ON the one hand its extremely positve that options for women have increased. On the other it is absolutely a degredation in lifestyle that 2 incomes are required to raise a family today, whereas half a century ago, it could be accomplished on one income. Im not implying things were better back then, when women were at home ironing, but as usual, Datalounge eldergays want to sit and bitch about how much classier life used to be in the olden days, without ever acknowleging hat their was any social trade off. Yes, ladies always wore hats, but they couldn't wear pants. Yes you could see Garbo at the movies, but you couldnt hold hands with a man, even in NYC. I'm so sick of the shallow and romantic sentimentality that passes for social analysis on datalounge. Go back to college, the lot of you.

• R92, try it sometime when you have a family waiting for breakfast, lunches to pack and kids to get ready for school. There's a whole different life out there.

• How about women in the office who try to pass off black sweat pants as "dress pants?" If a man did that he would be sent home to change.

• Clothes in the 50s and 60s were about rigid gender roles and conformity. Yes, the public dressed more formally, but there was an undercurrent of oppression to it all. At least now there is choice as to what people can wear. I also agree with the posters who have stated that "sloppy" dressing is reated to the crisis of confidence in American society today.

• You're a dipshit, R96. This ugly look, for everyone started in the 90s. Casual Friday was the 90s. Women and men dressed ok before then. I worked in offices and WOMEN and MEN were dressed up. Women acutally had more stuff that they had to iron - blouses and skirts and more that they had to bother with (expected to have more clothes instead of two or three suits like the men). I was around and I know how people dressed up offices. People look like crap now because of: 1. Influx of inferior clothes. Poorly made, poor fabrics. Does not compare at all to what existed decades ago. Lots of t-shirts. 2. The society-wide casual look. Compare how film directors dress now to pre 1960s. Yes, this started with the hippies and got worse with every decade. 3. Quality clothes and classic styling have become extremely expensive. And not easy to come by 4. Bad taste is "in." See: everything on TV. Media sets standards, and they are low. 5. Wages have stagnated since the 1980s. A lot of people are barely surving and cannot afford the basics, including clothing.

• C'mon it all started in the 60's with the hippy counterculture movement.

• The polyester crap that most stores sell is good for about 10 washings, then it looks like hell. That's what most people can afford to wear.

• Casual Friday was originally a 'no tie Friday'. Then business casual got dropped for whatever was just 'casual'. Casual Friday has evolved into comfortable clothes Friday. One day it will be bathrobe and flip-flops Friday. Elastic waisted capri mom-jeans make me weep.

• Yeah, the doing away with ties was a big step downward. And they thought they were being cool.

• The dressing down look in the office came from women working in offices. They wanted to be comfy while they sat in their cubicles gossiping until 3.30 when they "had" to leave to pick up their kids from school.

• Don't forget Americans are a lot fatter now. It's uncomfortable to wear form fitting, tailored clothes, not to mention ties, heels, hose, etc., if you're fat.

• [quote]It's like a whole culture of Gladys Kravitzes, peeking out at life through their curtains and yelling "Abner! Abner! Someone is wearing sweat pants to the Walmart! Speaking of Gladys Kravitz, I recently caught a Bewitched ep where even pudgy stay at home Mrs. Kravitz was "stylin'". She wore a short dress that looked like she raided from Samantha's closet with a mod pair of caramel mid-calf boots and managed to pull it off.

• We're out of shape as a nation and the hip hop aesthetic means limited edition sneakers and a brand new baseball cap are what constitutes 'dressing up' for many straight men.

• Sorry, but your theory is off, R105. Women worked in offices for decades and were dressed up. Offices where cubicles DID NOT EXIST. Cubicles have a role to play, however. It doesn't really matter how you dress in your cubicle, in your shitty job on the phone. In your downsized economy.

• Blame the stores for selling all of that crap!

• Okay, think back to the days of "Mad Men", when everyone was semi-formal at all times. Clothes were terribly uncomfortable. Women had teased hair which fell apart if they did anything fun, girdles, panty hose, very high heels, tight skirs, and uncomfortable "bullet tit" bras. Women were lucky if they could breathe or walk, forget about freedom of movement. Men had it a bit better, but they were still expected to wear hard leather shoes, tight collars, wool suits in all weather, and ties at almost all times. They considered themselves fortunate because they could wear a Hawaiian shirt in their lesiure time (with leather shoes and slacks), while their fathers had worn the same wool suits and shirts at home as they did at work. Don't glofiry the good old days until you've literally walked a mile in their shoes.

• r27, that was a lot of text just to blame it on the blacks, lol. If you knew anything at all about the blaxploitation movies of the 70's, those people DRESSED. I was just watching a few of these with family, the men were dressed in suits and the women in these fabulous little junpsuits which im sure were very fashion forward in the 70's. Yes it wasn't tuxes and evening gowns but it certainly wasn't trashy and "ghetto." Unless ANYTHING becomes "ghetto" to you if a black person is wearing it. And I suspect that's the case.

• r106 is right. The fat explosion has had a lot to do with sloppy clothing choices. Now that we are a nation of obese hogs with the exception of Manhattan and Los Angeles, we need comfy clothing that's roomy because tailored clothing is uncomfortable against all those layers of fat rolls, like a sausage casing. I was in Europe over the summer and it was so nice to see slender people who dressed well. America has become White Trash Nation.

• I love the expression "toddler men". Every time I hear/see it, I see in my mind grown men wearing onesies, with pacifiers in their moths, lol.

• I guess I meant when the office culture was taken over by women, not that women haven't worked in offices. Pot lucks, secret santa crap, "label your lunch", getting off early because they have kids. That type of frau stuff. Wearing slovenly clothes is part of that lack of professionalism that frau culture introduced when it took over in offices.

• OP people used to dress up to patriotically support the textile and garment trades in their own towns. Now that it is all done in Haiti and Bangladesh, nobody bothers.

• True r116 -- we used to "look for the Union Label."

• It depends upon where you live. Here in Manhattan, I see many people turned-out for the day. I always love seeing women with great makeup and many men dressed to the nines. Elsewhere, it's probably just as you surmise. Oh well, thin is the new fetish. Fat is rampant and they just don't care anymore. Nothing fits. It's depressing.

• All OP has to support his point is anecdotal evidence. People are spending more than ever on plastic surgery, makeup, beauty products, etc. People who don't care about how they look aren't going to be spending $$$ on plastic surgery or skin cream. Clothes have gotten more casual...but I don't think that means that people don't care about how they look. Amd why are gay men so concerned with what women wear? Is it because you wish you were female?

• And the lack of suits and ties in men, R115. Men sending porn joke emails. Eating at their desks. What you're talking about is the general slob and stupidity thing that is in the society at large.

• "The fat explosion has had a lot to do with sloppy clothing choices. Now that we are a nation of obese hogs with the exception of Manhattan and Los Angeles, we need comfy clothing that's roomy because tailored clothing is uncomfortable against all those layers of fat rolls, like a sausage casing." ROFLMAO. Thin people are just as likely to wear casual clothes as fat people. You think most thin people are walking around in ballgowns and three piece suits? ROFLMAO.

• r111, I go to work dressed like that today.

• Why are gay men so obsessed with how other people look and dress? For all the comments about "fraus" you all sound like a bunch of busybody housewives, so concerned about how other people live their lives. Focus on yourself.

• Why do you assume that all of the comments are by gay men? Men and women both dress badly. There is too much ugly crap in the stores. Only the rich can afford to dress well, or have lives where that matters. And plenty of them do not dress well, either.

• [quote]Only the rich can afford to dress well, or have lives where that matters. And plenty of them do not dress well, either. Even very rich celebs, who have to be hyper conscious of their image, sometimes dress like the homeless. Some look like they don't even bath regularly (Brad Pitt, Johnny Depp, Keanu Reeves). When did that trend start?

• It shows respect for other people to take some care of one's appearance. I wear leather shoes and stay away from plastic outerwear. Makes a big difference -- people tend to look clumsy in waffle sneakers and and synthetic parkas. I do agree that there are a lot of haggard, depressed people in America who feel bad about themselves and are distressed about their futures. Dressing snappily is not on their radar.

• 1990s grunge and 2000s casual work dress when young geeks became the power group.

• A big problem is that Americans are fatter now too. You have to dress VERY well and look very polished when you're overweight in order not to look sloppy. If you're thin, you can get away with wearing cheaper clothes as long as you are fairly well groomed.

• R127 brings up a very good point. Yes, that was a major part of it. The geek thing, I mean.

• 128 is right. When I was fat I didn't give a damn and mostly wore t-shirts and jeans. Buying clothes is no fun for fatties.

• Yes, but you can wear casual, comfortable clothes, including jeans, without looking like a slob. Think of plane travel. Some people make an attempt to be presentable, again even in jeans, others wear sports jerseys, sweats, track pants, fluffy sweatshirts and carry large pillows onto airplanes.

• Okay, I'll admit that I don't give a fuck how I look on a plane. I hate flying and I want to be as comfortable as possible. There won't be any paparazzi waiting at the gate for me, so who cares?

• R111 Don't get your history lessons from Mad Men. In the early 1960s the workplace was formal but outside of work, people dressed casually. Women did wear dresses but they wore pants as well. "Slacks" as they were known back then. And flats. They dressed nicely but casually. Loafers, moccasins along with leather lace-ups were what men wore. And both men and women wore sneakers and canvas tennis shoes. The average woman was not wearing "bullet bras" . Hair could be elaborate... but simple looks...pony-tails (as an example) were fashionable too.

• Only a narcissitic person would ask this question.

• I agree with R132. I refuse to dress nicely to travel on a flying cattle car. It's comfort all the way.

• Casual doesn't have to mean ugly. Nowadays it does mean ugly.

• I iron my shirts. Those people lugging huge pillows around airports are generally teenage girls.

• "When Anne Bancroft threw that drink in Shirley MacLaine's face." You may have something there, r31. Young intellectual women had been in the habit of wearing leotards as blouses in the 1950s and 1960s, but "The Turning Point" (1977) popularized wearing leg warmers and other dancewear as street clothes, and the popularity of sweat suits and other exercise clothing as streetwear became common around that time too (maybe something to do with the first "Rocky" movie.) My mother used to say we were all dressing the way the characters used to dress in futuristic science fiction movies (and true enough, they wore sweats in "Star Trek.")

• Actually it looks like they are wearing pajamas in Star Trek, and that is what some people are now wearing in public.

• The uniforms on Star Trek never reminded me of pajamas. I'm no Trekkie but it's a given that crew's uniforms were form fitting and the glammed out women wore miniskirts at least in the original series.

• "There are so, so many great places to buy stylish clothing at good prices." Please tell me where. I cannot find a single thing that's worth trying on, let alone spending money on. I'm fit, 56, handsome and willing to try something nice.

• In the fifties and early sixties men wore suits and women wore hats and gloves to travel in an airplane. Of course they also weren't crammed in like fucking cattle, either.

• Men wore hats until JFK didn't, so stopped.

• Airplane travel was always a dress-up affair. People dressed quite formally for air travel way back when. And as soon as take-off was completed the stewadress was right there with your (free) drink and would light your cigarette for you.

• Whatever I wear on an airplane, it is all cotton so if we crash and burn, my clothes don't melt on me.

• And all of this is a problem why, exactly?

• And then there is always the idiot who shows up, well into the conversation, with the clichèd: "And all of this is a problem why, exactly?".

• r147, that's because r146 leads a life sans souci waiting to move his mother's laundry from the washer to the dryer as he scrapes the Cheetos residue from his pudgy digits in not-so-high dudgeon. Tedious. And I always dress well for an airplane trip because, if there is a bump up available, they bump up the better dressed.

• You'll also find that being among the better dressed, your chances of meeting cultured, interesting, like-minded individuals is greater. Most slobs are worth avoiding.

• R141, the problem is that retailers have changed their sales model. You can't 'go' someplace that has nice clothing because every retailer is appealing to the most common size and most economical fit. This is where your internet expertise comes into play. You have to be willing to try on and return clothing that doesn't work. Examples: Brooks Brothers has good shirts, but their trim fit is too tight on my arms and the regular fit blouses too much around my waist. JCrew has pants that fit in the waist, but their thighs are usually too tight and the rise is too short for my ass. LLBean used to have the male equivalent of elephant chinos, which I loved; now, they have less fabric in the leg, but the rise is perfect and my ass looks fabulous. Carhartt has great casual clothing, but some of the fabric looks dated and I don't want to look like your meter reader. RL's Rugby has great looking clothing as long as it doesn't have the name plastered all over it, but it's disposable; you'll be lucky to get two seasons' wear. Canterbury of New Zealand makes great casual shirts/sweaters that last forever, but their pants are very baggy. Ted Baker used to make excellent shirts, but they outsourced and now I hate them. The higher end designers make clothing for stick people. As a short somewhat-funny looking mildly retarded person, I look like a Eastern European whore in high-end clothing.

• One thing I've learned from watching "What Not To Wear" (UK and US versions) is that it really doesn't take much more time to put on a decent pair of jeans and a nice t-shirt than it takes to put on pair of sweat pants and a slouchy t-shirt. I recommend stores like TJ Maxx, Marshalls, Loehmans, etc for finding nice name-brand clothes at marked down prices. The selection is rather hit-&-miss, but sometime you can catch them when they have good stuff. January will also be a good time for buying clothes since the stores want to clear the stock for the spring lines.

• Op, why do you care so much about empty, superficial things, dude?

• Jerry told George that by wearing sweatpants in public, George was telling the world "I give up." It started in little ways. Hatless JFK, Steven Spielberg directing movies wearing a baseball cap (and I think cops wearing baseball caps look extremely unprofessional), and the grunge movement. People are fat and just want to wear knits and be comfortable. That and they just don't care. I remember going shopping with my grandmother. You dressed up to do that. And went to lunch at a nice restaurant too, made a day of it.

  What%20a%20geezer%20I%20am

• [quote]ROFLMAO. Thin people are just as likely to wear casual clothes as fat people. You think most thin people are walking around in ballgowns and three piece suits? ROFLMAO. Not very bright, huh? People are influenced by others, especially when it comes to fashion. Add in the fact that most men don't like to shop for clothes and aren't interested in fashion so they were happy to abandon all effort even if they were thin.

• People used to dress up to fly on planes because it was expensive, unusual and prestigious to fly on planes. Now they are Greyhounds with wings. Another factor--it is expensive and often uncomfortable to dress up, at least in traditional formal clothing--suits and ties, heels, etc. That creates a powerful incentive in people to stop doing it and once it became socially acceptable, people perhaps went too far in the other direction Clothing used to be about signally class. Rich people used to dress for dinner at home and have different outfits for various activities in the day. They also had valets and ladies maids. Working class people always dressed badly because they could not afford otherwise. When the middle class exploded after WWII, at first, formal clothing was seen as a signal of status. If a man wore a suit and tie he was elevated in status. This collapsed in the tech boom of the 90s when it became a status symbol not to dress for work. In general, I think most people are happy to do away with rigid class distinctions and the dictates of fashion and to see clothing as more about comfort and practicality than status. They are also happy not to spend the money or time it takes to look good. It is a tiny bit of freedom. Fashions used to change fairly rapidly but since the 1990s they have been frozen. Most people are relieved.

• I'm glad my friends and associates are not so prissy and uptight to care about what other people wear. Empty people care about empty things a and get upset that everyone is not just as vapid. Besides, what kind of dudes care about what people wear?

• Are airline employees still subject to a dress code when flying as passengers?

• My 88-year old uncle wears a button down shirt and tie and a sweater every day. My 22-year old nephew wears the same thing every time I see him (mostly holidays). J. Crew was full of oxford shirts, pullover cashmere sweaters and coordinating ties this season, so hopefully it's a sign that men will be dressing better. Speaking of J. Crew, it looks like they've caved to vanity sizing. I usually wear a 33 waist, which is hard to find, so tried on a 34 and they fell to the floor. I ended up with a 30.

• [quote]And then there is always the idiot who shows up, well into the conversation, with the clichèd: "And all of this is a problem why, exactly?". And yet, you were unable to answer that simple question. Why is that?

• Obviously, because it disturbs OP's sensibilities. Duh.

• Some people think they can pull off the casual look without looking like trailer trash. Obviously they are wrong. So very wrong. Everything (including the person) should look fresh, clean, and far away from worn down (like: loose waistband).

• R157, yes. Stricter in first and business, but some rules apply to coach as well.

• Don't even get me started on the fat white men wearing cut off sweats or cargo shorts in the wintertime. THAT trend needs to die in a grease fire.

• I never worn jeans in my life and I am 37 and a half. I think they should be banned/outlawed. They are an eyes sore. NO ONE does looks good in them. T-shirts to. Sweats should only be wore at the gym. I wear slacks and a nice button down shirt with a sweater every day. It should be the law. It's mainly straghties that are the abombination to sensable style. They lack intelligents.

• [quote]They lack intelligents. Nah. Too easy.

• A few posters have asked the question: Why should anyone care what someone else looks like? Answer: Because we have to look at them and they're generally repulsive. It's also an embarrassment that so many people in this country are such slobs.

• [quote]I am 37 and a half And you're still marking your age in 6 month intervals? LMAO! I hope your entire post is satire, R164. Otherwise you are destined to become a ward of the state.

• R167, you were supposed to get your clue when the troll mentioned 'slacks'.

• R164 Oh, dear. The public school systems failed someone miserably. My sympathies.

• [quote]and, then, as if that makes up for everything else, a pair of earrings. Or they put lipstick on as if that makes up for the rest of their hideous appearance. I think a lot of women wear sweats and loose sloppy clothes thinking to hide their weight gain but it just makes them look fatter and sloppy.

• R164 Bless your heart, honey.

• The funny thing is that slobs judge those who dress nice. I moved to Denver about a year ago, and people still comment on how I need to 'relax' and dress like someone from here.

• It's not just an American thing. I live in London and it's like that here too. Slobs everywhere. It's spreading like lice.

• What bothers me is how there are no longer distinctions between levels of dress for occasions. People seem to think jeans and tennis shoes are appropriate for all occasions: housework, shopping, going out to.a club or nice restaurant, weddings, wakes, anything. I love the movie Casino, because it really catches the way people dressed well to go gambling or dining back then. One of the final scenes is a VoiceOver about how those days had passed, and there was a new era in gaming. This is over a slow motion shot of a horde of chubby people in sweatsuits and jeans walking into the casino.

• To those who ask the question: " Why should anyone care what someone else looks like?" My God, people get upset if they see unkempt dogs. But we can't be repulsed by unkempt people? I like pleasant surroundings. Wide-assed people in terry cloth stretch pants fuck up the visuals. And if you look that way, you live that way.... you think that way.

• you smell that way, too.

• What r126 and r174 said. Mom once said that to take time to dress-up for a wedding or funeral is to show respect to your hosts. It's a way of saying without words "this occasion is special, or solemn, so I took extra effort with my appearance." As usual, she's right. You don't need to be in a custom-ordered tux or designer dress to attend a wedding or funeral. You just need to make an effort to look your best. I'm resigned to the sight of casual wear at special or solemn occasions but that doesn't mean I think it's right because bottom line, it isn't.

  Della

• [quote]Answer: Because we have to look at them and they're generally repulsive. It's also an embarrassment that so many people in this country are such slobs. Goes for FAT people too. Sometimes I feel the urge to say something when someone is dressed down at a symphony, a nice restaurant, etc. The mall is one thing, the Met is another.

• When I was young, I dressed up on planes, but not because it was a big deal. I dressed up because you got less shit from the customs and security people, if you looked like you could afford a lawyer. Nowadays, I just avoid flying. I agree that it would be nice if people made more of an effort, and I don't mean more formality. I live in an isolated college town where absolutely everything is casual, but even old hippie professors can benefit from a little care with their appearance. A brightly colored parka, an interesting woven drape, thick-soled cruelty-free walking shoes in red instead of black, etc. Just a little flourish can change a person from drab to slightly fabulous.

• [quote]And if you look that way, you live that way.... you think that way. Exactly, r175. There's a reason why a previous poster called them "give up" clothes.

• I iron my shirts -- sometimes even "no iron" ones!

• Three points: A. This is the shallowest, whiniest, most childishly pathetic thread I've ever seen on my several months on Datalounge and that is really, really saying something. Don't you fems and fraus have anything better to worry about in life than someone else's casual attire? Grow the fuck up and stop acting like 13-year-old girls. If you were real men, you would worry about more important things in your own lives and not stress over a piece of textile somebody else might be wearing, for fuck's sake! I mean, do you people honestly not realize how babyish you sound? B. To the OP, why on earth would you want to emulate or impress Zeropeans, the most detestable cocksuckers on this planet? Eurotrash are the shallowest, rudest, mannerless, charmless, cold-blooded, ultra-xenophobic, humorless, pompous, sneering, ultra-hypocritical, backstabbing, laziest, drunkest, fakest, stuffed shirt human insects anyone could ever encounter (and I've dealt with these Euro-reptiles for 10 fucking years!) So I'm happy when any American habit offends their pretentious-snob sensibilities. And Europeans are the type that would really get off on a thread as squeamishly superficial as this (before you accuse me of being a "Freeper" I voted for Obama twice). C. Unless I'm going to a formal occasion, I have lived my entire life in a T-shirt, jeans and skate sneakers. And I hope that horrifies every fashion-obsessed man-child on this thread. I hope you all have traumatic nightmares over my ordinary, everyday attire.

  SickEvilFuck

• OP, I don't don't give a damn anymore what other people think. I do not go out in pajamas but I may go out in yoga pants, a lose fitting tee and tennis shoes to shop. I am a 50 yo old woman and it now takes a more time and effort to look my best. I do it five days a week for work and as a black female I spend two to three hours to have my hair "fixed" weekly. When I go out to shop I do not feel like like putting that much effort in my appearance. I do not care as long as my clothes are clean, my hair is combed and my personal hygiene has been tended to. If that bothers you or anyone else, it is your problem not mine.

  Elder-Bisexual

• You type like a fat person, R182.

• R182 thinks she's the shits since she's been here a WHOLE "several months". Smell you!

• [quote]I agree that it would be nice if people made more of an effort, and I don't mean more formality. I live in an isolated college town where absolutely everything is casual, but even old hippie professors can benefit from a little care with their appearance. A brightly colored parka, an interesting woven drape, thick-soled cruelty-free walking shoes in red instead of black, etc. Just a little flourish can change a person from drab to slightly fabulous. I had a moment of levity with this. Thanks, R179.

• Fat, R184? I'll have you know that I am 5-ft-7 and 135 pounds. That should tell you I'm built exactly like a twink, you stupid idiot who rode to school on the short bus. Shows how fucked-up your judgment is. I'm one of the physically leanest trolls you'll see on this pathetically immature website. And R185, it doesn't matter how long I've been on Datalounge, you other idiot cretin! It doesn't disprove that I am certainly more intelligent than most of the shallow, sniveling little pedantic whiny little man-babies on this site that are just like you. Deal with it, simpleton. I don't give a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut how long you've been on DL, you simple child. Because I clearly have a more viable brain than you, fool. AND I DON'T MAKE PSYCHOLOGICAL ISSUES OUT OF WHAT CASUAL OUTFIT SOMEBODY ELSE IS WEARING, YOU DUMB, SHALLOW BABYISH BITCHES!!! Jesus Christ, you would think that supposedly sentient human beings could come up with something better to worry about! But noooo, not you catty little fucking queen bitches who invest emotional energy in things that only 12-year-old girls care about. Gays like you are simple disgusting and make me wish that I were straight so I wouldn't have to be sexually associated with girlish man-cunts like you.

• [quote] Most of them are a sight for sore eyes... That doesn't mean what you think it means

• I live in a suburban area wiah a sizeable African-American population. If you go to TJ Maxx or Marshall's, it's hard to find men's clothing that doesn't say FUBU, SEAN JOHN or PHAT FARM. If you have very limited funds, that pretty much leaves K-mart.

• Oh, how cute - it rants and raves and swears and condescends (R182/R187). As original as a chili-triggered shit splatter.

• [quote] Okay, think back to the days of "Mad Men", when everyone was semi-formal at all times. [quote] Clothes were terribly uncomfortable. Women had teased hair which fell apart if they did anything fun, girdles, panty hose, very high heels, tight skirs, and uncomfortable "bullet tit" bras. They didn't have pantyhose in Mad Men days. They had garter belts and hose. Pantyhose were much easier to wear and were more "casual." Women who complained about pantyhose for no sympathy from me. They'd never had to wear garter belts. Those hooks and knobs could cut right into your skin.

• The quality of clothing at middle class stores has gone way downhill over the past 10 years. You used to be able to get decent if plain J. Crew-ish clothes at stores like Kohl's for good prices. Now they're all tacky and expensive. Sometimes it almost seems like a plot to mark poor people as poor and increase class polarization in the US. One of my friends complained about the increasing sexualization of girls' clothing in prole stores like Walmart and Target. It's almost as if working class girls are being groomed to be sluts.

• I was a lot more careful about my waistline before stretch fabrics were introduced.

• Almost all clothing seems to be made by children in sweatshops overseas with no quality control. This includes "designer" high-priced clothing. And I do not listen to a man's advice on what or what not women should wear. It is difficult to find clothing made from decent fabric that fits. A size 4 in Vietnam could be different than a size 4 from the United Arab Emirates. I am also tired of plastic and vinyl shoes!!! I guess all of that plastic recycling needs to be made into something!!!

• At What Point Was The Turning Point? Um.... It was at the turning point,OP.

• R182 - Marry me! I love your reply.

  Artie

• All clothes in the U.S. have gone downhill. I bought some clothes at J.Crew which used to be a "high end store" but it turned out it was MADE IN FUCKING CHINA. It was probably made in the same fucking factory where K-Mart clothes are made by slaves.

• Completely agree, R192

• I'm still not seeing the problem. You'll see me out in my comfortable jeans and casual shirts and it will freak you out and you'll run away. But isn't that a good thing? You and I would never get along and I'm just providing you the visual clues you need to verify that, saving us both a lot of time.

• I didn't buy clothes for a few years. The last year or so, I've had to buy all new clothes, since I lost a lot of weight. I'm horrified at the cheap, sleazy, thin polyester that passes for "dress shirt" material for women. I can't find cotton shirts for women, unless it's a T-shirt or $45. And women's clothing is almost all made in China, so the fit is wrong. Arms are about 4 inches too long, shirt tails are short. I'm 5'3" so I'm not that unusually sized. Boots and many shoes are now vinyl. Steve Madden, for example, seems to make all vinyl shoes. Even the chain shoe stores now carry almost all pleather shoes. Just a few years ago I went to these identical stores and they had leather shoes for $50 and up. Now they have $130 boots in pleather. I ended up buying shoes at Nordstrom Rack and online. This is probably why a lot of people are wearing tennis shoes everywhere. A lot of times, if you buy online and it doesn't fit, they will charge you to ship it back or a re-stocking fee. When I was heavy, the only alternatives were Lane Bryant, Avenue and Walmart. Other stores didn't carry large sizes at all. A T-shirt that was $25 at Lane Bryant was $7 at Walmart. All women's large size clothes are mde for 7' tall women. Apparently clothing manufacturers think if you are fat, your arms are 6 feet long. Either have every single shirt's sleeves hemmed (prohibitively expensive) or do it yourself. Also, they assume if you are fat, you have football player shoulders and an enormous Dolly Parton bust. If you don't, the blouse would fall off your shoulders on both sides and hang in front like an empty sack. Armholes are enormous. If your arms aren't enormous, blouse armholes hang down to your waist, exposing both sides. Oh, and now the trend is "fat women can wear the same thing as thin women," which is bullshit. Almost every blouse is sleeveless or has extremely short sleeves. If your arms are fat, this looks horrible. It's pretty much impossible to find a blouse that covers you up appropriately if you're heavy. Every single blouse has your tits hanging out. I wore men's T-shirts because I couldn't afford $40-50 dollars for each women's dress blouse from Lane Bryant. Now that I'm thinner, suddenly a lot more clothes fit, but I'm still having the problem with every blouse having no sleeves or super long sleeves, and a low cut front, with the wide-cut necklines falling off both shoulders. I'm 50, for Chrissake, I don't want the world to see my tits and I'm sure they don't want to either. Also, it's cold. Jewel necks seem to be a thing of the past. I can only find them in long sleeved T shirts. I dread summer fashions.

  Shopping is not fun any more, it's an ordeal.

• The turning point was when people stopped caring about what other people thought. I believe it all started with the "Me" generation. Totally self-focused and not caring about the opinion of others. In the 1940s through mid-1970s people took pride in their appearance because the Depression was still in the subconscious of the populace. People did their best to look presentable in public because they did not want to appear down at the heels or impoverished. Even then, people made an effort to clean up because women of my grandmother's generation would have been mortified if anyone thought they did not know any better. or did not have the smarts to know they should wash their hair or clothes. I also have to think that the decline in organized religion has played a part in this as well. People dressed for church as a sign of respect for where they were going, to show that they believed that being in a house of worship was a special time and no not the same as going to the grocery. When that tradition ended so did that one more routine of going someplace and looking presentable. Of course, there is some benefit to this change in attitude of being overly concerned about what others are saying or whispering. If we still lived that way America would be like one giant episode of "Peyton Place."

• [quote] If we still lived that way America would be like one giant episode of "Peyton Place." It still is if you're not straight