Bathhouse sued for discrimination after management told a FTM trans person he could not use the men's shower.
A Chicago area spa is facing down discrimination allegations, after management told a transgender person he could not use the spa's men's shower area.
Levi Pine, a Chicago transgender man, has filed an Illinois Dept. of Human Rights (IDHR) complaint against King Spa & Sauna in Niles, after a manager told him he would have to use a private shower or leave.
"The experience I had was particularly degrading," said Pine.
Pine has been on masculinizing hormones for a year. When he went to the spa on Dec. 9 with a friend, he used the men's shower facilities. Pine said the manager approached him while he was naked and asked to speak with him.
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Really this is getting out of control...sorry, you are not a MAN.
I think offering the private shower falls under 'reasonable accommodation'. Being given access to an alternate shower in a bathhouse is the not quite the same as being denied service in a restaurant or hotel. Women-only gyms deny men access, and womyn's music festivals dont allow MTFs right?
Should pre-op MTFs be allowed to shower with women? There was that case of the MTF trans person who had been arrested pre-transitioning for following teen girls into a restroom.
What a bunch of pansies. Who gives a shit if someone sees your tinymeat?
FWIW this is a Korean spa, it's not a bathhouse like Steamworks.
I don't support a transman who insists on recruiting unwilling others to work on his own issues. In this case, proving, mostly to himself, that he's just a "regular guy."
The transman can "identify" any way he wants, but naked he's a woman to others, who themselves have sought out men-only space, and may have their own issues being naked around female bodies.
It comes down to consent. In this private, men-only space, other patrons have not consented to be part of this transman's psychodrama.
The trans agenda nowadays is that the whole world must accommodate any and all trans delusions at all times.
Anyone who points out that said delusions are making them uncomfortable is just like a racial bigot, apparently.
I don't understand the problem you guys are having, especially if you're gay.
Are you saying you can't be naked in front of someone who's not a guy? What do you do on a nude beach?
This guy is not allowed to use women's showers because women have more safety concerns with men having access to them when they are vulnerable.
Are you really afraid of a trans guy looking at you? Odds are he's interested in women and more concerned about being seen.
He just wants a shower. Grow up.
there are so few transsexuals, especially FTM, why would anyone care, plus i like FTM guys, we need to support them!
Sorry but as a dude, I would not shower in a public place with someone who is not born male. It makes people very uncomfortable.
R9, really, why? Actually, i find it more uncomfortable to shower with men, cause i'm always very horny and if i see a hot guy naked it's very hard to control myself and not stare at him lol
So you mean "not born male" you mean around women where you'll make some of them uncomfortable, R9...
That doesn't explain why you or any other guy should feel uncomfortable around a trans guy (or even a woman, for that matter).
the poll results disappoint me.... I thought DL would have more results for our FTM bros
R7 / R11, you're missing the point. I would care less, but that doesn't mean others aren't uncomfortable, and they don't have to explain themselves to you. A naked female body doesn't belong in men-only spaces, whether that body belongs to a person who "identifies" as man or a woman.
Transfolk have a tough time, and I respect that. But the world does not have to conform to their "needs" because they say so.
And BTW do you actually think all/many/most gay men go to nudist beaches?!
So after all the fun poked at Michfest, men are really no different.
More work for lawyers!
Another frivolous lawsuit designed for quick cash.
If she didn't feel welcomed in this spa she could have checked out others.
Every establishment has a right to refuse service to anyone, for any reason.
Maybe she's give off a strange vibe or is too unattractive for this establishment and they want to preserve their reputation.
If I had a dime for every time I felt slighted for being gay or fat I'd be a millionare.
If the person looks completely male from at least the chest up, I think it might be a good idea for him to use the male showers. Though if it were me, I would wrap a towel around my waist and not make a point of flashing everyone.
No one has the right to look at and judge the genitals, anyway. What if you're dealing with someone who was born genetically male, but had that hermaphroditic or ambiguous genitalia thing going on? Hey, some men who have had accidents look nullo. If I were the one who saw it, I'd honestly just let it go.
Does it really stifle other patrons' entertainment when one single tranny showers for, like, five minutes in the mens' shower?
Have we all become such huge drama queens who think the world has to revolve around each of us individually and our special individual diva needs?
I'm SO fucking sick of these "trans people", typically lesbians who have their breasts chopped off but keep their vaginas, fucking with people, hijacking and clouding gay equality issues and who make complete nuisances of themselves.
No doubt she made a point of telling everyone there that she's a FTM and shit stirred until she could play victim.
Ha, R19. I know way more transwomen than transmen. The transwomen happen to be much more high-maintenance.
R7 R11 We don't have to explain why.
None of our explanations will satisfy you. Let HER use the private shower. The entire world does not need to support her delusions.
R13 you act as if someone demanded an answer or threatened to banish you.
It's a legitimate question. There are reasons women -- who suffer more sexual violence -- might not want to be vulnerable if men generally were allowed in. But women have had to get naked for doctors for ages.
That they would "feel uncomfortable" is not a reason to discriminate. We wouldn't say that white people could refuse to shower with black men because they make them "feel uncomfortable."
It's ridiculous, and a LEGITIMATE question to wonder why someone has so many body issues they care whether someone who is likely sensitive to those issues would want a shower.
[quote]Have we all become such huge drama queens who think the world has to revolve around each of us individually and our special individual diva needs?
I think that's exactly the complaint against the transman.
I too am beginning to tire of trans issues being connected to gay issues , just like I tire of gay issues being compared to black issues or people who are disabled trying to connect their issues to other issues.
Guess what? Trans issues are trans issues. Gay issues are gay issues. Black issues are black issues.
I'm sick of the piggybacking all around, honestly.
If I owned a spa I would not want her there, period. Think about it--all she has to do is claim sexual harrassment and or claim rape--there goes your business.
If trannies are going to promote their Libertarian attitudes then they must respect the codes of privately owned businesses. It's hypocritical if they don't.
Uh, but as far as we know, the transman wasn't pestering any of the other patrons.
What's "he" going to do? Rape you? Come on.
And gay non-trans people aren't delusional? Whatever, guys who call their assholes a "pussy" one minute, then say women's pussies are "unnatural and rancid" the next.
So you're saying [R22] that gender separation in bathing and restroom facilities is just silly and should be eliminated. Women should be able to pee, shit and shower anywhere they want. (Noting that you do support women-only spaces, just not men-only spaces.)
As an FTM I have to say that I would have opted for the private shower.
All the butch-up drugs cost a lot of money and the last thing an ex-gal needs is the insult of being treated like a lady.
Personally, I'd sue the pharmaceutical companies who have a lot of money in a "fail to perform" law suit and use the experience at the vapor haven as evidence of their ineffectiveness.
r22 you contradict yourself: you say women might feel uncomfortable around naked men due to the perceived threat of sexual violence ... but then you saying feeling "uncomfortable" is not a reason to discriminate.
Apparently in your mind women's discomfort is valid, but not men's.
Straight men do not want to shower with gay men because gay men make them "uncomfortable". And they probably have more of a "non-reason" for saying so than in this case.
You have no more explanation for this than they do. That's why we call it irrational. And prejudice.
In SF at my gym we had male to female using the men's locker AND the female to male because the women objected to both.
Put the tranny in a private shower.
[quote]And they probably have more of a "non-reason" for saying so than in this case.
wha? What does that mean?
Your point is ridiculous. Show me one gym where a gay guy was kicked out or denied shower access because straight guys were uncomfortable. I'm not saying some straights don't get uncomfortable around gays, I just don't think gyms are kicking out gays because of it.
Let the leering homos have their own showers. Separate but equal. They make real men uncomfortable.
I am SO tired of gay men who are SO tired of wanting to see gay rights separated from trans rights.
Same-sex marriage restrictions aren't called "no gay marriages" for a reason. They impact trans people and gay people equally.
And trans people fought our fight when closeted homos sat out the fight.
Get over yourselves.
Trans rights are different...
Human rights are not.
Stop spreading that sylvia rivera bullshit, it had not even run away from home when stonewall happened.
R12..."he's" not my brother. "He" probably identifies as a straight man. That's first. Secondly, just because "he" has his breasts reduced, that doesn't make "him" a man. Check "his" chromosomes. He's a she.
Honestly, this is just mental illness and I won't equate it with being gay. It's not at all the same. FtM are more like "ex-gays", frankly.
R34...you're SO full of shit. Go on Youtube. The transmen aren't fighting for gay rights. They identify as straight men and RECOIL from being considered gay at all.
Whoa, I don't know what to make of transsexuals myself, but certainly not nearly all transmen are "straight", R38.
I would be very uncomfortable in a locker room with a transmale.
Exactly, R28, I suspect most transpeople are extremely body conscious, and would never opt to reveal themselves in a semi-public space when an alternative was offered.
Keep in mind this is not a gay, or even men's faciliy. It's co-ed and "family oriented." Children go there with their parents. Fathers and sons use the showers and bathing facilities.
The news report wasn't exactly clear, but said the transman was taking hormones and had substantial body hair. It didn't say that he'd had top surgery. So outward appearances were a very hairy female, boobs and all.
I neverd they were ALL straight. MOST identify as straight men. In fact, it's the vast majority of them. Most will not even allow anyone to characterize them as eve having been female or lesbian It's all internalized homophobia and sexism. It's NOT the same thing as bein gay. Being gay is accepting who you are. This trans nonsense is the opposite.
Oh I see we have geniuses on this thread now. Witness the illiterate at R35 and the sage at R38 who sees the world through the lens of youtube.
I have been involved in gay rights litigation for decades. I know for a fact that trans people have not only given money to organizations like Lambda and the ACLU, helping them stay afloat by sharing resources, but that trans people have specifically fought for our rights. I've worked with them.
For you to use Youtube, R38, is like using the same to define every fringe gay person to define all gay people. You need a serious education.
R34 thank you. You're right.
And I stand by my earlier point. There is no difference between these irrational arguments and straight men saying they want gay men to shower elsewhere.
Uncomfortable. The code word for "irrational" and prejudice.
I am so fucking over trannies bringing all their crazy with them everywhere.
Would you be uncomfortable with them using the men's room? Odds are, you wouldn't notice the difference anyway. Unless you have really voyeuristic tendencies.
And look at the PC loser at R43 who is so divorced from reality he can't see 'straight.'
I go to school with a bunch of these "dudes." They are completely fucked up. I was a supporter of the trans community, even dated a FTM for a while. But it became clear to me that these "guys" were really struggling with mental health issues, and in some cases had gone off pschyatric medication.
As for the throngs of trans being involved in gay rights, you're full of shit, and you're clearly equating drag, transgendered, and transsexual, and they are NOT the same thing. Genius.
Even if it were true that millions of FTM's had marched for gay rights, it doesn't change reality. It's mental illness. I'm not going to equate it with being gay. It's not.
Oh and R43, if you can't tell the difference between homophobia from straight guys, and gay men not pretending that FTM's aren't really women, then you're nuts.
R2...but "transmen" are often much more fucked up. Which is really saying something.
R46/R47. Be careful who you call "nuts". Your reasoning alone makes you appear unstable.
Gay men were called mentally ill on EXACTLY the same reasoning that you just used. And claiming that trans people have a disorder is equally suspect. You are no more qualified to assess mental illness than the American Family Association is in saying the same thing about gay men.
Nor am I confusing transgendered and transsexual people. I have worked with several transexual people on gay rights issues. All over New York. These include professors, medical professional and transsexual lawyers, NONE of whom are mentally ill.
Your bigotry is showing the more you type. Thanks for proving your deep personal issues that are behind your rants.
R49, oh please spare me your sanctimonius bullshit. Honestly there's nothing worse than a bitchy queen who thinks she's clever. You're not. Just tragic.
You are the king of false equivalence however. So what...yeah, gay men were once considered mentally ill.But we're not.
However, I also didn't need tens of thousands of dollars worth of surgery to 'become' a gay man. I don't need to be on hormones to be a gay man. I am accepting who I am naturally.
And my being a gay man doesn't involve a rationale about 'being born in the wrong body', an absurd contention that is rooted in sexism and homophpobia. If there's a correlation, it's between trans and the ex-gay movement. Not between openly gay people self-affirming who they are and people mutilating their bodies out of gender dysphoria.
But thank you for proving your stereotype of being the sanctimonius prick you clearly are.
Trolldar r50 and look at the rants and psychotic mish mash light up.
From this alone you read mentally ill.
Never ever speak for gay people. You're horrible.
R51= trans who can' handle the truth.
Yes, everyone's mentally ill except the people mutilting themselves.
Get some therapy mess.
R50, you are now proving your ignorance ... among other problems.
Read legal texts. Courts excluded gay people and trans people from civil rights laws for the same legal arguments. We are all denied the right to marry on the basis of gender for the same legal arguments. Courts have denied us equal protection on the basis of the same legal arguments.
And as for false equivalences, you clearly don't understand what a meaningless distinction is, or who is making false distinctions. The law has said that you are NOT using your body as nature intended, and that your sex acts are as much conduct and a choice to do with your body as trans people are doing with theirs. The biological claim that what you are doing is natural is not based in clear science, and there's just as much science, in fact, that indicates that trans people may have biological reasons for their feelings.
As for sanctimony, your hostility is clouding your judgment.
You're beyond help and reason.
Oh ad 51, you can light up all my posts here. I'm not dumping my cookies and pretending to be different people like you are. And my posts are completely consistent.
r52 I am not trans. I'm a gay man.
You should be banned from DL for the hate you have dumped on this thread.
R53...uh huh.Nice homophobic rant, bigot. Not using my body as nature intended? Fuck you.
R55...says the guy saying that gay men use our bodies unnaturally. Fuck you homophobe.
FWIW, I'd rather shower next to a realistic-looking FTM than a realistic-looking MTF (w/ freakish shemale breasts and whatnot).
And MANY transmen do identify as gay/bi/attracted to other men. A lot of them might have started off as wanting to be straight men, but after taking Testosterone, transitioned towards liking guys. Imagine the irony in that.
Gay and tranny are two entirely different things.
One loves his dick and wants to use it, the other wants to either turn their dick into a pussy or turn their clit into a dick.
They have a lot in common with the clubfooted and the hairlipped.
Here is Levi's facebook page if you want to send him a note.
[quote]We are all denied the right to marry on the basis of gender for the same legal arguments.
Actually no. Many trans people can enter into legal heterosexual marriages.
also r53 what did you mean by "and there's just as much science, in fact, that indicates that trans people may have biological reasons for their feelings"?
What science? what are you referring to? I understand the impetus behind what you're saying but i'm unaware of anything scientific to back it up.
[quote]Actually, i find it more uncomfortable to shower with men, cause i'm always very horny and if i see a hot guy naked it's very hard to control myself and not stare at him lol
Exactly what bigoted str8 men have been saying about us for years.
So men have to accept FTM and MTF in their showers, but it's ok for women to reject them because they feel uncomfortable?
R62, As men, we don't run the risk of sexual assault from strangers nearly as much as women do.
I would not be afraid of or uncomfortable with sharing bathroom/shower facilities with transgendered people. would you?
R64, if they are pre-op, then yes I would.
Tranny = crazy.
Since most trannies are horrified by gay and lesbian people so I don't give a hoot about them.
I have met a few, and they all seem "off."
Contrast that with all of the wonderful gay and lesbians I have met and I cannot make a good case for trannies and all of their weirdness.
Unless you're Linda Blair, the risk of sexual assault in a women's shower is slim to none. It just doesn't happen.
r63 is right: there is a double standard here.
What dingbat FTM's don't understand is that men are real human beings, not a facsimile, and have a wide range of emotions (which they don't, because they take "T").
FTM's objectify men as either athletic studs or cold-hearted misogynists. Most men are not, of course, those two stereptypes but what does a mentally-ill, self-loathing FTM know about real men?
FTM's don't care about men's feelings, because they don't think men have feelings. So in their worldview, men don't have a right to privacy, humility, or embarrassment in showing their private parts.
If one of them were pissing at a urinal next to me, I wouldn't give it a second thought.
Just because a person with a mental condition that manifests itself by a strong desire to change his or her gender insists on showering in public without the appropriate genitals, doesn't mean we all have to change our lives, laws, and give a shit, does it?
So many hateful cunts on this thread.
[quote]So many hateful cunts on this thread.
Isn't the topic about someone who possesses a cunt instead of a dick? The people complaining don't have cunts and don't want a cunt in their shower room. Comprende?
Die in grease fire, R73.
ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh mother fuckers need to learn how to live steath lives smh
All together now....
"THIS THREAD IS POINTLESS WITHOUT PHOTOS!"
What is a Trans"man" even doing in an all male bath house?
At some point you have to consider OTHER people's rights. Men have the right to be separate from women in lockerroom and shower situations. This person may identify as male, but that is her thing. Regardless of how she self identifies, the plain fact is that she is still female physically and that's how others identify her, sorry. Once you've had the addadictome, and are a fully physical male, THEN do your male mingling. Until then, keep your pussy in the female lockers.
Anyone else here noticed how within the last few years there are some guys who claim that they're "Gay" but they have vaginal sex with FTMs and then claim that they're not bisexual? I've met a few guys like this and I'm not sure why a gay man would want to have sex with a woman or someone who has a vagina?
I have a hairy FTM fuck buddy.
Muscular, masculine looking and sounding but with a pussy. I love it. Much nicer than ass.
Disgusting, r80, you can't be serious.
Back to the situation; really, how long would it take to shower? Five-ten minutes? Big deal. The manager was being petty.
I can't imagine a FTM would be as much as problem as a MTF. Especially a post op FTM.
[quote]I am SO tired of gay men who are SO tired of wanting to see gay rights separated from trans rights.
And I am SO tired of trans people imposing their homophobia on the gay & lesbian community.
There's no such thing as a gay FTM. Biologically, a gay FTM is a heterosexual female.
This is heterosexual entitlement.
If they offered her a private shower, she has no case. They didn't deny her reasonable accommodation.
R81 I am very serious.
She's just another pushy lesbian.
R86, she's a gay "FTM." Not lesbian...she's a straight woman
A chick without a dick is still a chick. she should shower with other ladies.
This is a Korean Spa that I have gone to. The shower area is open and large incorporating three hot tubs, a cold plunge and a steam room. There is also an area for three tables where you pay to have a "scrub" by one of the staff -- still in the open. There are approximately 10 open "stand Up" showers and 15 "seated" showers. The towels provided are about 6 inches by 18 inches. Everyone is naked. This is the male area.
There is a separate female area.
The facility is large and also includes a large coed area where people wear shirts and shorts supplied by the Spa. The coed area includes about 7 different types of hot rooms, an artic room, a restaurant and resting areas. It is open 24 hours a day. I've included the website info.
[quote] I'm SO fucking sick of these "trans people", typically lesbians who have their breasts chopped off but keep their vaginas
Most surgeons who perform the lower surgery for FTMs do NOT do a vaginectomy, as they do not do the surgery that includes a microsurgery that allows for urethral extension & hookup. If the FTM does not have that, there is no way they can get rid of their vagina.
[quote] What is a Trans"man" even doing in an all male bath house?
It's not an all male bath house. It's a Korean spa that has facilities for men and women.
Read the article next time before you make ignorant comments.
"The experience I had was particularly degrading," said Pine.
Honey, you're in a bath house. It's supposed to be degrading.
[quote] Honey, you're in a bath house. It's supposed to be degrading.
A bath spa is not a bath house.
[quote]Read the article next time before you make ignorant comments.
But where's the fun in that?
I could see women being freaked by MTF. But guys toward FTM should be somewhere between blase' and curious.
And they have the luxury of being bigger down there, which is always a nice feeling.