The whole "real men" meme

.. Real men (do whatever...) is nothing more than a controlling propagandic oppressive frame created and propogated by frauen who want to control males. Their shame based gender framing is tired and impotent. THERE. I said it. Now watch the exposed harpies fly out in rage and attack now that they have been exposed for what they are.

• And to think it all started with quiche.

• Not sure. "Real men" can be used that way. It can also be used as an analog to "real women." That is men or women who are natural, genuine, and comfortable in their own skin without the need to conform to some fleeting fashion of what is supposed to be hot according to what the people who make money by telling us how we must strive to present ourselves. Fashions and beauty standards come and go, vary with time and place. Owning who you are and your own way of presenting yourself without regard to what you are being spoonfed by temporary magazine standards is sexy.

• Why do you care?

• Oh, please. The male of the species always establish the rules of gender pecking order. It's how they figure out who is in charge. A guy in an apron would be loved by women, yet other men would never vote him to be block captain.

• Actually it's based on patriarchal ideals that have becone a trap for bothmen and women. It isn't women doing it to men. There are a lot of patriarchal ideals that harm men, such as the expectation to be emotionally stunted (which is not an innate but socialized characteristic), that men must be the breadwinners, that men must be physical and able to take a beating of he is a real man. These are not thing women have done to men, these are things which the patriarchy has done to men. Women are not your enemy, they have been just as victimized by the patriarchy, and many women inherit and internals the ideals of the patriarchy just as men have.

• Forgive the spelling errors, writing this on an iPhone as a run out to lunch.

  r5

• oh, bla, bla, blah.... R5. What are you yapping about? Only matriarchal hegemonists use the term patriarchy. You lose 99 percent of your male audience once you appropriate that tired cliche.

• Has Stephen finally come to his senses? Oh, hell no.

• Real men do what the fuck they want to do, and don't let other people tell them what "real men" do/don't do.

• Those kind of gender roles were created by racist white guys to control the population. That time is over and people should just do what they want, period. How antiquated.

• I think there's some truth to men being more stoic/emotionally clueless and women being more emotional/intuitive. Not all of this is learned behavior. Men's and women's brains are hardwired differently.

• It's shocking that people still believe men and women have to act certain ways, when it's clear each person has their own distinct characteristics. Why was science so fucked up in the 1950s?

• OP is 100 years old and extremely tiresome.

• Real men have tiny hypothalmi.

• Uh...I thought this catchphrase was created by men.

• So far from what I've seen, the "real men" meme seems to idealize "Marlboro man" qualities in men that existed pre-feminism: smoking cigars, being a "gentleman." It seems that a lot of women like these type of qualities, despite feminists being against things like being a gentleman, opening doors.. I don't care enough for straight men to ever really feel sorry for them, but how confusing it must be to get all these mixed, contradictory signals.

• R16, Weird. I actually know several "feminists" as they call themselves, who still want all of the opening-car-doors etiquette. Though feminism is an important thing, it is very contradictory. And its subgroup dissension can be brutal. Some feminists admit to this right away, while others deny any contradictions exist. Bottom line: our sexuality and gender constructs are fucked from the inside out. We can keep trying, but these issues will never be resolved in the next indefinite number of generations.

• "Real men" involve a wide range of activities and preferences; the true test of manhood involves accepting responsibility for your life and making mature (another word that begs definition or clarification) choices, especially if that man has also made the choice to marry and have children. It DOES NOT involve what men eat, whether it's salad or meat or quiche or chocolatey desserts--it is what they choose that would reasonably maintain their health--moderation in all things, in other words. It also does not involve how militarily minded he is or whether he joined the army and killed and destroyed or hunts animals and kills them--it does NOT involve killing! And I agree, fraus have no business telling men what constitutes manhood any more than men dictating what should be criteria for "womanhood". That said, I know I am tired of seeing and hearing in just about any commercial involving a product aimed at men the approving or adoring female somewhere in the background or pawing at him, etc. etc. Manhood does not involve constant reference to something female.

  anonymous

• PS--Watching football or baseball or playing it isn't a test either however it may be a test whether or not you gracefully accept men who DON'T watch sports nor play them.

  r18

• Real men, OP? LOL. Are you a time traveler from 1982? Not exactly a timely debate, moron. Oh, and btw, it's men who decide what "real men" are NOT women. So sorry all the straight jocks in high school mocked you and never let you join in their reindeer games OP/MPC/MHB. P.S. Can you come up with something other than the same tired cliche you've been throwing around for years--matriarchal hegemony. Dear God, you are a bore.

  http%3A//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Men_Don%27t_Eat_Quiche

• That's right; because women control the media, marketing departments, advertising, and all the other mediums through which cultural norms are foisted upon society. Oh no wait that's a fucking stupid lie only complete morons believe. Whoops!

  Sherlock

• As far as "opening doors" for anyone is concerned, one should feel free to open or not open doors for anyone regardless of gender and not have some frau become critical.

  anonymous

• Feirstein is a trashy hetero from New Jersey. It's his fault then. Or his mother's. Also worked for Fox News and helped outsource the film industry to China.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Feirstein

• OP: You have the thread of an idea. Please (and I say this not to be cunty, but to be serious) if you are interested in this, take a class or two on sexuality, gender roles, intercultural communications, etc. or a queer studies class. There's lots of legitimate work out there examining gender roles and how our society focuses on the heteronormative majority (not to mention patriarchy and race). But take a class or two so you can avoid doing stupid shit like blaming "frauen".

• "Real men" choose not to sexually exploit women and instead only choose to have sex with other men. ;)

• Straight, homophobic, misogynistic MEN are the creators and defenders of the "real men" meme, OP, not women. Where did you ever get that idea? Top of the list for membership in their club is that you in no way act feminine or....."gay."

• "Straight, homophobic, misogynistic MEN are the creators and defenders of the "real men" meme" What does it say about me as a gay man that these are the types of guys I lust after? Pretty sad, huh?

• Who knew Nan Michiganwomyn had a brother. What is your name, OP? Or should we just make one up?

• Is EVERYTHING a "meme" now?

  It%20wasn%27t%20back%20in%20the%20seventies%21

• I'm sorry, what?

• It says you're self-loathing, r27. Loud and clear.

  Yes%2C%20%22pretty%20sad%22

• Gender roles are tiresome, but gay men are just as guilty as anyone else, with ideas of what gay men are or aren't.

• Real men take it up the ass. Without poppers.

• You must be or have been a Marine r33.

  anonymous

• Gay men are not really the target of this, so I'm not sure what you're getting all worked up about. It's a shame tactic used against straight men.