And he openly and forcefully stated how miserable it is to be a Palestinian. It's nice to finally see the suffering of the other side being acknowledged in the media these days.
I want to fuck Richard Engle. He is so cute.
Engel is the best. And yes he is damn hot.
And why is no one discussing the blockade of Gaza and what it is doing to the people there? I am not an apologist for either side; they both treat each other brutally. But I don't see why no one in the last week has addressed the blockade and its role in this current chapter of violence.
I do have one question about all this mess. How did Hamas get their rockets to begin with? Israel has every crack and crevice blockaded. Who's giving them the ammo?
Richard is probably riding some fat Israeli cock.
R4 they get their arms from Iran, smuggled in through tunnels on the border with Egypt. But apparently they're starting to build arms themselves right there in Gaza, with parts i assume they are also getting from Iran.
It's beyond time that Israel was destroyed. What they have done to the Palestinians is criminal.
The Muslims are convinced they will eventually run the Jews out of the Palestine, just like their Kurdish hero, Saladin did in the 12th century to the Crusaders. They will never be able to live at peace with a Jewish state and Jewish control of Jerusalem as long as they are captives of their religion. Muslims hate the Jews far more than they do Christians and their religion promotes this. The founder of their religion personally beheaded dozens of Jews who rebelled against him. It's a very sad story for both sides and religion is at the root of it.
Go jump in an oven r8
The weirdly knee-jerk anti-israel hate here always shocks me.
People like r7 clearly prioritize the elimination of israel over alleviating palestinian suffering.
[quote]And why is no one discussing the blockade of Gaza and what it is doing to the people there?
Why is no one discussing Hamas' dedication to the destruction of Israel? As long as Hamas is in power, and as long as Hamas is dedicated to "resistance" instead of peace, Israel needs to to be able to control shipments into Gaza.
[quote]And why is no one discussing the blockade of Gaza and what it is doing to the people there?
The blockade is there because Hamas was bringing in huge caches of arms and launching rockets at Israel. Hamas has all this money for arms but the people live in squalor.
One of the many, many reasons it's miserable to be a Palestinian is that the Palestinian leadership is entirely focused on the destruction of Israel, and doesn't give a rat's ass how much their people suffer.
No, I take that back, they actually approve of their people living miserable, squalid lives. It's so easy to turn suffering into hatred.
The idea of the destruction of Israel doesn't sound so bad after all.
r9 how can you be so hateful and ignorant? It boggles the mind. Do you think you're being funny? Are you hoping to gain the admiration of other like-minded bigots?
Meanwhile, the suffering of palestinians continues, because their leadership thinks like you do.
R9 and R14 need to die in a grease fire!
R8 = Neocon
Aren't Palestinians citizens of Israel? Are places like Gaza and Golan represented in the Knesset?
Speaking of Richard, I always had a hunch he was gay? Anyone know anything about that?
[quote]Aren't Palestinians citizens of Israel?
If you're talking about the people in Gaza and the West Bank, then no. Sometimes people refer to Israeli Arabs as Palestinians, but I don't think that's what you meant.
Are places like Gaza and Golan represented in the Knesset?
Gaza Palestinians have no right to vote for Knesset parties. That part of the Golan Heights occupied by Israel is inhabited by both Israelis and Syrians who've declined to accept Israeli citizenship. (Druze in the region have a tricky balancing act since they usually have family in both Israel and Syria.)
By the way, Knesset members do not represent geographic areas. Israelis vote for the party of their choice, not individual MKs.
R8 doesn't come off as a Neocon at all, what the fuck are you smoking, R17?
I can't express my loathing for R9 in human terms.
Sorry, the situation confuses me. Initially, it was a Palestinian territory, until Jews came in and eventually became the major occupants. At the start, while the Jews were still a growing minority, the country was still called Palestine? During this period, the gen population and govt were comprised of these two groups and not segregated. Then certain Palestinian groups terrorized Jewish areas. This is when the Jewish side stepped up, built the wall and mandated all Palestinians to remain there, allowing ingress to now what's recognized as Israel via border channels. Is this correct?
I've read in other forums that there are non-Jewish citizens living peacefully in Israel-- in that case, I was wondering why not a lot, if not most, of the populace in the Palestinian side (whether Jews, Christians, or any apolitical person) apply to live in the Israeli side since almost all sources of livelihood is there?
[quote] the country was still called Palestine
There has never been a country called Palestine.
I'll start with the late Ottoman Empire rather than going back to the dawn of time. Palestine was a province of the Ottoman Empire. There were already Mizrahi Jews living there. In the 1850s the Ottomans performed a census, which showed Jews were the largest group of people living in Jerusalem. The first Zionist settlement was in 1878. The first big wave of Zionist settlement came with the pogroms in Russia and its territories.
The Ottoman Empire fell apart with WWI. The League of Nations established mandates to govern regions of the middle east which had been part of the Ottoman Empire. The British ran the Palestinian Mandate and was to create a Jewish homeland. France had the Syrian and Lebanese Mandates.
Zionist settlement increased with the mandate. Some Arabs did well with their Jewish neighbors. The increased commerce and Zionist development created jobs, and Arabs from other areas migrated to the Palestine Mandate. Some Arabs were angry about the increase in Jewish settlement. The first organized Arab violence against the Jews came in the 1920s.
The 1930s get a lot more complicated.
[quote]This is when the Jewish side stepped up, built the wall and mandated all Palestinians to remain there, allowing ingress to now what's recognized as Israel
No. The barrier did not go up in 1948 (independence), 1954 (Sinai), 1967, 1973, or 1982. Construction of the barrier started in 2001, in response to the Second Intifada, when the Palestinians were blowing up Israeli buses and restaurants full of civilians.
R11, Hamas are freedom fighters. What they are doing is to be applauded.
R25, have you ever read the Hamas Charter? Here are some excerpts:
[quote]Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it. (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
[quote]The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up.
[quote]There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.
[quote]After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
Here's the really juicy bit of the Hamas Charter:
[quote]Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:
[quote]The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews. (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).
You call them freedom fighters. I call them Jew-hating criminals.
They don't love peace. They don't love Palestinians. They love violence.
The same can be said about Israel, r27. So kindly Fuck off.
If we're playing who was there first, the Jews were there for 3,000 years, way before Islam existed.
And, since this is a GAY site, where would you rather be Gay?
Israel, with Gay marriage and military service OR
ANY Islamic country, where you would be executed on sight?
[quote]The Ottoman Empire fell apart with WWI. The League of Nations established mandates to govern regions of the middle east which had been part of the Ottoman Empire. The British ran the Palestinian Mandate and was to create a Jewish homeland.
R23, thank you for wanting to explain. About your comment above, do you mean as soon as the Ottoman Empire dissolved, the entire area was then officially called Israel (as per creation of Jewish homeland) with Jews and Palestinians living homogenously, or did you mean the area was re-distributed into Israel and Palestine (what was it officially called if there never was a country called Palestine?) as 2 independent territories?
If it's the former, I take it Brits governed during period, ruling a mixed population of J & P-- but how did the Jews eventually grab sole govt power, so Jew-centric power that they can order around the Palestinians who comply, to the point of segregating them (even Palestinian Jews!). Was it "awarded" to them by the Brits, or the Jewish political party was just stronger vs Palestinian representation, or plain power grab?
Here's what one Arab columnist thinks of Hamas:
[quote]Kuwaiti Columnist: Hamas Is A Terrorist Organization
[quote]'Abdallah Al-Hadlaq, a columnist for the Kuwaiti daily Al-Watan, harshly condemned the double standard of some in the Arab media, who call Hamas's actions "resistance" or "jihad" and Israel's response "aggression," and added that Hamas is a terrorist organization killing innocent people. He wrote: "When terrorist organizations, including Hamas, fire mortars and rockets from the Gaza strip on cities in the Israeli south and kill innocent women and children, the misleading media call it 'resistance' or 'refusal' or 'jihad operations,' but when Israel attacks these organizations' military and security installations inside the Gaza Strip in order to stop this terroristic firing of mortars and rockets, the media call Israel's self-defense 'aggression.' These media outlets continue to discriminate and to call things by false names. They call the Israeli victims 'casualties' while Palestinian victims in the Gaza Strip are called 'martyrs.' These media outlets do not hesitate to deceive when they call Hamas's attacks on innocent civilians in Israel's southern cities 'a right of the Palestinian resistance and jihad movements,' while calling Israel's defense of its people 'the Israeli occupation army's aggression towards Gaza.'
[quote]"The terrorist group Hamas has started a confrontation with the Israeli army that it cannot end. After they process the horror of the Israeli response, the Hamas leaders will say what the Persian terrorist, Hizbullah leader Hassan Nasrallah, said: If I knew the Israeli response would be this severe, I would not have provoked it."
There's more at the link. I know r28 won't click on a MEMRI link, but others might be interested.
[quote]Aren't Palestinians citizens of Israel? [quote]If you're talking about the people in Gaza and the West Bank, then no.
They're citizens of what entity, then?
I thought they were that's why they abide by Israel's rules and Israel provides for them (apparently, too little) and has the power to regulate goods/meds/etc the goes in their area.
I think Richard Engel and Andrea Mitchell may be Rachel Maddow's 2 favorite people in the news biz. She waxes praise on them constantly.
The Israeli have every right to crush Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization bent on th e destruction. Hamas has no interest in peace, death to Israel is their only mission.
Tough shit that women and children get caught up in this mess.
Death to Hamas, always and forever
[quote]About your comment above, do you mean as soon as the Ottoman Empire dissolved, the entire area was then officially called Israel (as per creation of Jewish homeland) with Jews and Palestinians living homogenously,
The period when the empire ended and the mandates begin involves the League of Nations, the Paris Peace Conference, and different treaties. I can't explain it in a post.
During WWI, the British were on one side and the Ottomans on the other, along with many other parties to the conflict. The British military occupied the area and set up a military administration. The League of Nations set up the Palestine Mandate which the British administered until 1948. The British were supposed to set up a Jewish homeland, so they promptly took over 75% of the mandate to create the kingdom of Transjordan, in which Jews were forbidden to settle. So, in that part of the mandate there were no Jews and Arabs living side by side, since Jews were not allowed there. In the remaining non-Jordan part of the mandate, Jews and Arabs lived together.
1948 brings the creation of the state of Israel and the war. It's a bit difficult to reduce that to a paragraph.
The Palestinians are indeed pitiful. They are ruled by terrorists. They have no rights, such as free speach, being gay or lesbian, democracy, education etc. need i mention extreme child abuse and zero women rights. The palestinians deserve a real leadership and not hammas which is a terroristic organization. Supporting hammas is as stupid as supporting al kaida. And to the dumbasses here - go fuck yourselves ( openly in gaza)
[quote]They're citizens of what entity, then?
Under the Oslo Peace Accords, the Palestinian Authority was created. The authority was to administer Gaza and the West Bank. However, in Gaza, after the Israelis withdrew in 2005, the people voted in Hamas in 2006. Hamas and Fatah fought. The Palestinian Authority control of Gaza ended in 2007.
I suppose as far as the UN is concerned, the Gazans are part of the PA. However, the PA hasn't controlled Gaza for years now.
R37 the hammas and fattah did not fight. Hammas pushed most of the fattah leadership from the 17th floor of a building. It is pain and simple murder. It was all over the news.
What strikes me about all of these Israel vs. Palestine arguments, is that it's like watching a tennis match.
Back, and forth, and back, and forth.
Actually, it's like watching the most BORING tennis match - ever.
Back, and forth, and back, and forth.
Same old arguments, same old insults, same old hatred, same old... everything. Like for the past 60+ years.
Back, and forth, and back, and forth.
And the funny thing about it is that neither side gets anywhere. EVER. It's like the longest re-run movie in history. Did I mention that neither side gets anywhere?
THE WORLD IS SO TIRED OF THIS SHIT. It's exhausting. Neither side is winning, and neither side will ever win.
So please stop wasting everyone's time. And just. fucking. end. it.
The rest of the world.
[quote] Richard is probably riding some fat Israeli cock.
He's actually Jewish, and based on his sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians, I'd guess he's riding some fat Arab cock.
He studied Arabic in Egypt, and lived there for quite some time.
Thank you R29.
R39 I don't care who's cock he's bouncing up and down on, I JUST WANT PHOTOS.
For anyone who mentions the blockade is about security, ie., not letting weapons IN, ask yourself why Israel doesn't allow things to go OUT, like fruits and veg that farmers are trying to sell or students who have won Fulbright scholarships - that's the part the Israelis don't like to talk about.
They have no excuse for disallowing farmers from selling their produce or students being able to leave, but still be able come back to their families after studying abroad.
Are they afraid the Palestinans have "yellow cake" hidden in the lettuce for Iran's nukes?
Richard Engel and Bob Simon - two guys who have spent a long time in the Middle East. Both Jewish. Figure out why they have a different opinion from the assholes who have been sitting on their asses over here having never stepped foot in Gaza.
BTW, for the jackasses trying to scare people into believing this is about Muslims trying to run Jews out of the country, know this: The Israelis make no distinction between Muslims or Christians. Both treated like shit.
R29, most of the problems are because of the settlements. Most of the settlements are filled with fanatical lunatics who are no different from the fanatical Muslims you're so afraid of.
BTW, if we're going to play "who was there first," let's have a DNA test for every single Palestinian and every Israeli, esp. the ones coming out of the former Soviet Republics.
I'm pretty sure a few of those Palestinians -regardless of what you call them- could also trace their heritage back. But no, let's just assume the Ashkenazi Jews all belong there and the Palestinians have no connection to the land, because revisionists who could give the Holocaust deniers a run for their money say so.
He also lived in Italy while studying Italian.
[quote]BTW, for the jackasses trying to scare people into believing this is about Muslims trying to run Jews out of the country,
We're the people who've read the Hamas Charter. We're the people who've read the speeches Hamas leaders make. We're the people who've watched the videos of Gaza children decked in combat uniforms and brandishing weapons vowing to resist the "occupation." we're the people who've heard the chants "From the river to the sea, Palestine shall be free" and understand that means they're determine to eradicate Israel, just like the charter says.
[quote]know this: The Israelis make no distinction between Muslims or Christians. Both treated like shit.
In all the Middle East or North Africa, there is one and only one state where the Christian population is growing: Israel. Please check out what's happening to the Christian populations in Egypt and Syria. Then come back and tell us which country distinguishes between Muslim citizens and Christian citizens.
He's really short, but so adorable.
[quote]BTW, if we're going to play "who was there first," let's have a DNA test for every single Palestinian and every Israeli, esp. the ones coming out of the former Soviet Republics.
The DNA tests have been done on Ashkenazi populations and Arab populations. The tests show that European Jews are genetically more closely related to Arabs than they are to other European populations.
[quote]most of the problems are because of the settlements. Most of the settlements are filled with fanatical lunatics who are no different from the fanatical Muslims you're so afraid of.
Israel had settlements in the Sinai and in Gaza. When Israel withdrew from those territories, all the settlers were removed, even the ones who didn't want to leave were forcibly removed by Israeli soldiers.
The occupants of West Bank settlements make up all kinds. Most of them are people who wanted cheap land to settle on. Secular Jews, what Americans would call Conservative Jews, Modern Orthodox all live in the West Bank. Bear in mind a lot of the so-called settlements are really Jerusalem neighborhoods beyond the green line. The real fanatics are the ones who try to create new settlements, not approved by the Israeli government. Those sort of outposts are destroyed by the Israeli government.
[quote]I think Richard Engel and Andrea Mitchell may be Rachel Maddow's 2 favorite people in the news biz. She waxes praise on them constantly.
Or maybe it's because they work for the same employer she does.
r37, ok, so the land was split 25% Israel/75% PA, both autonomous of each other, and from how I understand it, Israel has been eating up more than the agreed land ratio, hence Palestinians feel they are being stolen from and marginalized and is one of the reasons for their hostility.
My other question is, apart from the territory dispute, why does the PA side allow Israel to regulate them (inflow and outflow) with the blockade? For example, as someone brought up the farm produce and students leaving, why do they need Israel's approval? Re goods, sell it to Egyptian merchants. The students can leave without having to pass through Israel via their other supportive Arab ally countries.
Really sorry if I sound obtuse, I tried understanding it, but different issues always muddle it up.
[quote]so the land was split 25% Israel/75% PA
No. Over 75% of Mandatory Palestine was split off to create the kindgom of Transjordan, which was off limits to Jewish settlement. So, out of the land which was designated to create a Jewish homeland, more than 75% was given to Arabs right off the bat.
The remaining land had Jews and Arabs living together. I can't tell you the percentage of the remaining land that was to go to Jews and to Arabs under the partition. It shouldn't be too hard to find maps of the planned partition.
[quote]Israel has been eating up more than the agreed land ratio, hence Palestinians feel they are being stolen from and marginalized
Jewish settlements in the West Bank take up less than 2% of the land mass. Israeli proposals to settle the matter have sometimes included land swaps to equalize matters. Furthermore, the complaints about settlement construction have to do with construction inside existing settlements, not new settlements.
One more thing: Jews lived in the West Bank and owned property there prior to the 1948 war. During the war, the Jordanian army ethnically cleansed them from the area. When Israel occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem in 1967, individuals and families reclaimed ownership of property they had had to flee during the war. Some of the disputes with regard to Jerusalem neighborhoods particularly have to do with Arabs who had moved into Jewish-owned buildings after 1948 not wanting to move or to pay rent to the owners. Evictions take a long way to work through the courts. And at least one Palestinian camp in the West Bank was built on land owned by Jews.
If Palestinians want to settle all this, they need to tell Abbas to go back to the table and negotiate it. It's been years now since he's been willing to come to the table or send a negotiator.
Here's a map of mandatory Palestine. What is now the kingdom of Jordan took up more than 75% of the mandate. Jews were forbidden to settle in Transjordan, so no Arabs living side by side with Jews in the kingdom, by the Arabs choice.
Any photos of Richard barefoot or in socks entering a mosque? TIA.
Below is a link to an article about Ehud Olmert, former Israeli prime minister, in which he discusses the offer he made to Abbas in 2008 to settle the Israeli-Palestinian dispute. Abbas never responded.
[quote]I'm pretty sure a few of those Palestinians -regardless of what you call them- could also trace their heritage back. But no, let's just assume the Ashkenazi Jews all belong there and the Palestinians have no connection to the land, because revisionists who could give the Holocaust deniers a run for their money say so.
Israel was never a real place. No one has genetic ownership of it. This is why the place is so fucked up. That region is a fundamentalist shitstain. Israelis will open up the Bible as a history book, showing that it's their piece of land.
The problem I have with Israel is that we're supposed to treat them as morally superior to everyone else in that region. No one in that region isn't fucked up. Treat them the same, stop funding them, and defending them, and then I won't have a problem with Israel. I couldn't care if they all starve and kill each other. Keep the rest of us the fuck out of it. We pay for Israel in money, and blood shed. We were attack on 9/11 thanks to our undying support of Israel. We're helping the recruitment of terrorists who in turn come and attack us.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Israel was the worst idea in the history of mankind. Arabs will hold a grudge until the end of time. It's what they're good at.
Send your contribution to B'nai Brith
[quote]The DNA tests have been done on Ashkenazi populations and Arab populations. The tests show that European Jews are genetically more closely related to Arabs than they are to other European populations.
As Bill Maher said, don't ever tell Israelis that, or they'll go ballistic.
Hamas resorts to guerilla warfare. Why? Because it doesn't have a fucking army that's equipped with an arsenal and technology like Israel. People are so hypocritical in all of this. Israel has been committing genocide for decades. They're America's spoiled child. Anytime the child does something wrong, America, the parent, comes in and defends their precious little darling.
I'm not a fan of the Middle East. I know it would chop my head off, but I'm not going to look the other way and not call a spade a spade. I'm tired of Israel's constant bullshit. I also don't like their leader trying to push my president around.
Who r58? That sounds like a synagogue. I want to contribute to Hamas but I want to do it legally.
[quote]Are there organizations in the US that send money to Hamas? I would very much like to contribute to their cause.
Why, yes, there are such organizations. When the FBI acquires evidence that they are contributing to Hamas, they and the individuals in control are prosecuted for supporting a terrorist organization. By all means, contribute to Hamas and then see what happens.
Deleting your cookies won't fool anyone, r7/r9/r14 etc. Everybody knows you're the same little anti-Semitic freak.
Israel will continue to prosper as a Jewish state long after your pathetic Nazi ass has croaked. Deal with it.
[quote]Hamas resorts to guerilla warfare. Why? Because it doesn't have a fucking army that's equipped with an arsenal and technology like Israel.
Because Hamas won't countenance the existence of Israel and won't negotiate a peaceful resolution to the conflict. They are dedicated to resistance. You might wish for peace and life for everyone there. But Hamas doesn't wish for peace, just the eradication of Israel.
[quote]Israel has been committing genocide for decades.
The Palestinian population is bigger than ever. If that's genocide, it's the most incompetent genocide ever.
Life expectancy in Gaza is higher than for Glasgow, Scotland. That's kinda weird if Palestinians are being subjected to genocide.
While you're at it r60, make sure to legally donate to the KKK and to the Westboro Baptist Church. They're also freedom fighters of the type you support.
r52, thank you. Seeing you posted a map reference, I thought visuals might help me understand so I came upon this youtube video (I cheated, I know). Would you say this is a fairly balanced summation? It sounds so simple and quite favorable to Israel, I suspect a little bias? I'm trying to understand why there are so many who feel passionate to defend the Palestinians, which the video doesn't cover.
Let's give Israel North Dakota and let them move lock stock and barrel. We can hire Disney to make reproductions of their famous monuments and buildings.
Israel is the real terrorist. And I hope I live to see the day when they are destroyed.
R52, R67 here. Forgot to add, defenders of Palestinians which include Israeli Jews themselves.
Back to the stud: any shirtless pics of him?
Is he gay? He seems so to me.
Here's what I don't get re: conversation here: I see both sides but why cannot Hamas (the gov't getting million$) feed its people?
But, the root of all war, conflict, strife? RELIGION.
Scientology, Catholicism, Islam, Judaism=fucked up beliefs written for a barbaric peoples.
RELIGION IS EVIL.
I first became interested in the area when the PA was set up, and the US taxpayer provided them millions, for roads, schools, hospitals, etc., and in the interest of fairness. I naively thought it might make a difference.
The money seemed to have vanished. Not much was used as intended.
The 'israel gets too much money from the US' people never bring this up.
These same people claim that Israel went knocking on doors, removed Arabs by force, and moved Jews in. I have not been able to find a single case of israeli expropriation that happened like that. People who keep using this meme please provide examples. Interestingly the Israeli government DID to this, but Israelis living in Gaza. This is another fact that gets left out of the discussion.
One side keeps making gestures for peace, one side keeps saying: fuck off.
Richar's rich Daddy gave the luxury of supporting him while he studied Arabic and Italian.
Another entitled prince.
sorry meant to say "Israeli government DID do this, but to Israelis living in Gaza".
r55, I'm sorry, but you really shouldn't do that.
If they find out you're a big cocksucker, they'll want to murder you.
Hon, no matter your stance on the plight of the PEOPLE, make no mistake: Hamas is a fucked up, religious group bent on what most fucked up religious groups want: world domination.
OP. This is the DL. "The other side" here IS Israel.
[quote]I'm trying to understand why there are so many who feel passionate to defend the Palestinians, which the video doesn't cover.
I didn't watch the video. I usually don't click on youtube links on any thread.
People feel passionate because they can see that the situation for most Gazans sucks. I can see that. I feel sorry for them.
The problem is most people don't look beyond the most salient points: Israel is richer, stronger, and has the bigger military. Gazans and Israelis are fighting. More Gazans than Israelis die. Common conclusion: Israel is a big bully.
But look beyond that. Why does the situation for most Gazans suck? Their enclave is controlled by Hamas. The people of Gaza got one election and voted in Hamas. They haven't had a chance to vote them out (and the people of the West Bank haven't had the chance to vote out Fatah). Hamas has been launching rockets into civilian areas in Israel since 2001. Israel unilaterally left Gaza, without any concessions from the Palestinians, in 2005. Hamas repaid the Israelis by increasing the rate of rocket fire. Hamas places its rocket launchers in civilian areas. Rockets have been launched from residential neighborhoods, near schools, from the stadium, from next to a communications building used by journalists, etc. Hamas has stored ammunition in mosques and homes (Doubt this? Look for secondary explosions when the buildings are hit by Israeli attacks.) Hamas knows that Israel will eventually fight back to take out the launchers which threaten Israeli civilians. So, when Israeli eventually, inevitably fights back to destroy a threat to its own people, Gaza civilians are killed. Then Hamas cynically wails: They're killing our children, our women, our civilians.
Hamas deliberately puts it civilians at risk. Israel deliberately protects its civilians, builds bomb shelters, sets up the Iron Dome, which is a purely defensive system to take out the rockets before they land in built-up areas of Israel.
The problem isn't that Israel is a bully. The problem is that Hamas profits when its civilians are killed in the fighting. They're not going to stop until they are removed from power.
r77, the youtube link was just an explanation by this guy that, in a nutshell, the war is basically Arab nations not wanting Israel to exist. David vs 5 Arab Goliaths, if you will. It touched on the Brit division you mentioned and the compromises Israel agreed to over the decades. He mentioned that if Muslims laid down their arms, there will be peace in the region. If Israel lays down own its arms, they will be slaughtered, something like that. I wanted you to watch it because I couldn't judge if the video was objective or overdoing the Israel=victim angle.
Because from that explanation, it seems like a no-brainer why Israel is aggressive military-wise, so it confuses me when I come across defenders, like Jewish Norman Finkelstein (search his name + "crocodile tears" on YT) who likens Israel to a Holocaust perpetrator vs Palestinians. I do not understand what they want Israel to do.
What about Richard Engel's feets?
Anyone ever see them with or without socks?
This battle will never end. Think of it this way: you and your family have owned a home, lived on a piece of land, for generations. Then, an international organization comprised of people outside of your county states that the land your family has lived on for those generations now belongs to someone else based on religion and biblical scripture. How on earth can anyone believe that the fighting will ever end?
r80 that is an oversimplification/misrepresentation of what happened.
Much of the current problems date to the period after israel was set up, when they intercepted and prevented a clear plan to destroy them.
A salient fact that gets left out is that when Israel was set up, the original plan WAS a two-state solution. It's clear that from the get-go, one side has been uninterested in crafting any solution that might be amenable to both sides.
THAT is the root of the conflict. Not the 'foreign jews kicked happy simple arabs off their land' idea.
R68 North Dakota has more oil and oil wealth than (IDK what). so probably giving that area to them would likely cause a bit of a problem. and do you think South Dakota would like THEM on its border?
Here's a kooky thought: maybe if the "Palestinians" hadn't spent the last sixty years trying to wipe Israel off the face of the early maybe they'd have their own fucking state by now.
ok, I've been reading and watching a lot in the past few hours on this topic. this will be my last YT post on it. I found this vid which fleshes out the Palestinians side a bit more, in the line of what R80 opines. Just posting it in case there are others interested to learn more about the conflict, as I am.
[quote]Document on Calorie Figures in Gaza Blockade Stirs Dispute
[quote]The Israeli military calculated the number of calories that Gaza’s residents would need to consume to avoid malnutrition during a sweeping blockade imposed on the Palestinian territory from 2007 to mid-2010, according to a document that the Defense Ministry released under a court order and that was made public on Wednesday
r84 that sure is one-sided. No mention of the 6 day war.
The story of the woman who paid off an israeli soldier to save her brother, and the soldier kills him, is horrible, but it is just agitprop. Not to excuse the soldier's behavior, but these are the depravities that happen in a state of war. They are not proof of the evils of one side against an innocent victim.
The video reveals its biases in how it talks about the arab army being so small against the goliath of israel (even though the numbers aren't so disproportionate; Israel's was bigger by a third).
It seems in any other situation, the act of sending an army somewhere would be considered an act of hostile aggression (aka war). According to this video, the smaller arab army it's just evidence of how 'unfair' Israel is. Just bizarre.
This kind of thinking -- which gets in the way of any hopes at political solutions -- does not help palestinian people one bit.
[quote]Then, an international organization comprised of people outside of your county states that the land your family has lived on for those generations now belongs to someone else based on religion and biblical scripture
If by international organization you mean the United Nations in 1948, then you've got it quite wrong. The UN didn't say this land belongs to X and this land belongs to Y. They said this land will be politically controlled by X and this land will be politically controlled by Y.
Had the Arab League not rejected partition and sent in armies to push the Israelis into the sea, then people would not have been displaced. And for the Arabs who were displaced, a small minority were forcibly displaced by Israelis during the fighting. Most of the Arabs who left the territory now controlled by Israel left voluntarily: some left before the conflict to avoid being in what was expected to be a war zone, some left during the fighting because they didn't want their families or themselves killed, some told to leave by Arab leaders. The people who voluntarily left expected to be able to return after the fighting was over. But the fighting didn't turn out the way they had expected.
The Israelis didn't let many Arabs back in who had left. That might have been different had the Arabs been willing to sign a peace agreement and agreed to live in peace with Israeli neighbors. However, the neighboring Arab countries maintained a warlike stance against Israel, sending in Fedayeen fighters. How suicidal would the Israelis had to have been to contemplate letting masses of Arabs return when there was no peace and no reason to believe those Arabs would live in peace with them?
And now it's been over 60 years since Israel was created. The clock cannot be turned back.
Isn't he a little person?
And you know that means, he has little feets.
Follow the money trail darlings! All that wonderful American cash, that Oslo cash, Oh! I orgasm darling, just thinking about it. How do you think I have been able to live the way I do? Sure they kicked me out of Paris, but Malta is lovely this time of year. And much closer to my beloved countrymen! We're digging Yassir up again to prove I wasn't bearding for a man who died of AIDS. Of course Israel did it. If they didn't poison him, they gave him the AIDS.
If you travel around through the territories and wonder why the garbage is still being tossed into ravines and there is no civic infrastructure, looke to me Darlings! I've got it all. Your generosity, over nothing more than a positive televised soundbyte, has enabled me to shod my cloven hooves in the finest designer leather and has also given me the ability to insult shopgirls in three different languages. People talk about me having millions. Psssh. You think I would've done all this for millions?
There have to be legitimate organizations in the US that provide aid to the gazans.
GIve your money to the UN/Unicef r92.
R92, check out Doctors Without Borders and/or Red Crescent.
I know for A fact he dated Kyle Hunter of KMIR for a couple of years, he was very out here in the desert.