Saturday, November 17, 2012
More than a hundred thousand people attended rallies across France Saturday in protest at plans to legalize gay marriage, according to police figures obtained by AFP.
In Paris alone, 70,000 people turned out at one rally, said police — organisers put the figure at 200,000 — while another 22,000 protested in the southeastern city of Lyon, said police, and up to 8,000 in the southern city of Marseille.
Another myth shot to pieces. France seems to be as liberal as the Florida Panhandle with regards to social issues like these.
Haters gonna hate. I would have thought French people wouldn't really give a shit one way or the other, but I guess not.
Majority is OK with it but this is a society where everyone gets to make noise. Hollande made it a campaign promise and the people who are protesting this are protesting his presidency.
For example, there was a widely circulating photo of two women kissing in front of a group of protesters. Turns out the 2 women are actually straight friends who kissed to piss off the protesting fraus.
I hate France. I went to Paris a few years ago and it was the worst trip ever. People were so rude. And I discovered pretty quickly that the perception that the country was very liberal was just a big lie, a big myth.
I had a prof who came from Paris, and one of the first things he told us is, "don go to Pair-ees - eet ees a sheet-hole!"
That's it! I'm burning all my fucking scarves!
[quote]Another myth shot to pieces. France seems to be as liberal as the Florida Panhandle with regards to social issues like these.
I agree. This was a surprise. It's something I would have expected for Spain where they have close ties to the Vatican, but didn't see this coming for France.
So nobody is going to blame this on the you-know-whos who are immigrating to France?????
France has a population of over 65 million. Do you really think that a 100,000 French crackers and their hillbilly opinions really matter to the grander scheme of things?
Good for the French.
R10 - just go back to freerepublic. We don't infest the - *snicker* - intelligent conversations you have about this stuff over there, so please just fuck the hell off.
I second r11...fuck right off you mentally challenged fuckface.
Good for the French!
waits for r11 and r12 [same fudgepacker] to have another shrill meltdown. *gets popcorn*
It is good to see the progay side finally getting off their lazy butts and engaging in street protests, but they need to get more people involved. Likewise, British gays need to stop being such passive pansies and take to the streets in marches and solidarity rallies. The lack of grassroots and street activism among pro-gay Western Europeans is worrying.
One could argue that most people in Western European democracies take gay rights as basic human rights and view them as something that shouldn't even be under discussion. It may be a naive attitude but it could explain the lack of political activism.
But I thought we wanted to be more like France? What do we do now?
"But we were promised croissant."
The Catholic church has been gee-ing up anti-choice protestors in Ireland too, ones who obviously want to defend a country that allowed a woman to die of septicemia rather than terminate a pregnancy and save her life.
Old misogynist brain-washed Catholic women.
The Catholic church once again has blood and hate on its hands.
As someone coming from Europe, I agree with r15,it's a basic human right,so it's a no issue thing-no one gives a f*ck BUT you must remember that when the revolution happened in France, it was a small minority that caused it driven by Napoleon....so France has NEVER been liberal.
But in comparison to the US, please, Europe is the most liberal area in the world!
This shouldn't be a shock. Anyone who assumes Europe is just so liberal!!!1111!!!!11!! is a fool. There are liberals there, sure, but there are also plenty of "traditionals" aka conservatives who are not for gay rights yet, if ever.
It will be a long, long time before most of the world, heck, most people in any country, are ready to fully accept gays, sadly.
Does France allow gays in their military organizations?
[quote] It's something I would have expected for Spain where they have close ties to the Vatican, but didn't see this coming for France.
Both legally and as far as public opinion Spain is actually one of the most gay accepting countries. It is certainly is more liberal than France on this issue.
I just can't imagine wasting my time and energy on MARCHING to prevent people from getting married.
I wouldn't even march if I was on the anti-marriage side- embarrassing.
I hope someone films the whole thing, get all their faces on camera for posterity.
[quote]Does France allow gays in their military organizations?
With the exception of Cyprus, all the EU countries allow gays to serve in their militaries.
France also has a national domestic partnership registry, which extends most of the rights of marriage, and in fact, increasing numbers of straight French couples have gone that route.
The Voice of the Night
" I WIPE BACK TO FRONT! "
[quote]Does France allow gays in their military organizations
Of course, every western military except the US allowed that. France has also had a form of civil unions since 1999.
I'm sure those DLers who have made a habit of bashing all Muslims had a magnifying glass up to that picture or tried to enlarge it.
Anyone who has been there knows the "real" French have always been bigoted assholes.
The French image of sophistication is a myth. Once you leave Paris, you will find most people are unapologetically homophobic and misogynist. Deluded gays want to scapegoat the Muslim minority, but it is the quietly fascist French majority that is the real threat - they are the ones who gladly collaborated with the Nazi occupiers.
What percentage of the population is that?
I'm sure the freepers could scrounge up a similar number to rally here.
Once again the French have their stinky noses in the air poo pooing something. People make life more difficult than really need be.
R27, If you're referring to the picture in the linked article it seems to be of an LGBT rights protest, not an anti-marriage protest. Notice the rainbow flag in the background. And you're right, not a Muslim in sight.
100,000 protesters is hardly signifcant in a country inhabited by 65 million, and even if it WERE a majority opinion among the native French, at least they use democracy to express their opinions. The Muslims will just gang up on you and beat you to a pulp.
R29, since France has 1/5th the population of the US, yes, I'm sure the Freepers could get 100K.
The population of France is over 60 million.
This is not a significant amount of people protesting nor an indication of the views of an entire country. Anyone who thinks the majority of French people are fascist should get their psychotic medication reviewed.
If you compare the politics of France and the US, the US is significantly more right wing and anti-gay.
Um, no, R32.
Thanks R31 and R33 for your ration and reason.
The catholic church must have really had to hustle to get what's left of their congregations organized and out into the streets for one last kick at the can before they disappear into irrelevancy.
The French can routinely get half a million to turn out just to protest attempts to mess with their holidays or tuition fees.
Those protestors look really gay for an anti-gay group
R31, it's cute how you make a distinction when it comes to 60 Million French, in that you don't hold all of them responsible for the actions of a few. I guess your brain stops working when we're talking about a group of people who number over a billion.
Oh, and here's the anti-gay marriage group:
The times they are a-changing...even in France.
The struggle for civil rights goes on around the world. Of course, there are traditionalists in Europe; it has a thousand years of history, religion and structure. Its views on same-sex marriage won't go away overnight--but they will go away, or more precisely, defeated or changed over time.
Do the pictures make the numbers larger or what R37-R41?
What r35 said.
R42, reread my point @R37.
If you manage to think in one instance, your brain shouldn't then turn to mush when your bigotry rears its ugly head in speaking of an even greater number of people.
[quote]I agree. This was a surprise. It's something I would have expected for Spain where they have close ties to the Vatican, but didn't see this coming for France.
Generalísimo Francisco Franco has been dead for almost 40 years now. Spain hasn't had "close ties to the Vatican" for decades.
Spain & Portugal very open to gay rights etc, not an issue.
Those of you who are so surprised: That's what occurs when basing one's beliefs on limited information and experience and assuming the grass is greener elsewhere.
No, R44. You still don't explain the pictures.
Looks like Mittens "missionary" work during the Vietnam War finally paid off!!
We all know that an organized protest clearly represents society as a whole. It's having an effect, support for gay marriage in France recently plummeted to a low of 58%.
[quote]I agree. This was a surprise. It's something I would have expected for Spain where they have close ties to the Vatican, but didn't see this coming for France.
Spain did have organized protests after Zapatero and the Spanish parliament passed their marriage law in 2005. I can't remember how large they were. Of course, the were organized by traditionalist Catholics and the vocal Opus Dei movement (which originated in Spain), but they largely fell on the deaf ears of the general pop. Look at the photos of the protesters in France -- elderly women, middle aged fraus and white folks and you know who organized.
Thing is that I don't think you will find a group of people more cynical about the Catholic Church than Spaniards -- both the non-believers and the believers. After Franco's reverence of the Church, his association with OD, and the general misery they both caused the population, people mostly use the church to mark rituals and milestones. Except elderly women who can be enthusiastic church-goers.
And the fallout from church shenanigns are still felt today. A recent scandal has been the revelation that the church kept newborn infants from unwed mothers (of all ages) for decades during Franco's regime, telling them the infant had become ill and died. Nuns would whisk the newborn away without the mother even having seen it. The church placed the infants with well-connected, wealthy donors. Once this was revealed, scores of mothers who'd given birth in the '50s, '60s and '70s began demonstrating and searching for the children who were taken from them. There have been some reunions. This stuff has played out on national TV. The historical memory of church chicanery in Spain will be long. Not surprisingly, a lot of Spaniards identify as agnostics or atheists and believers can be quite secular.
I also didn't expect the people of France to be so unenlightened, I thought they were much better about progressive ideas and civil rights there than we were here. Very disappointing.
R53, we have to remember that every country has its conservative factions - that doesn't mean it is representative of everyone
You're right of course R54, it's just kind of sad to see it happening. I hope there will also be reports showing support for gay marriage there.
The notion that Europe is so very liberal is a myth. There is a lot of bigotry in Europe, as France and the UK attest.
Hollande needs to get out and speak up forcefully and unwavering, just like Zapatero did when the right erupted over marriage equality. Hollande seems noticeably timid about challenging the antigay movement.
If you go to the link at R1 and read the comments, you will see that most of the posters cite French news sources that say the Raw Story article is wrong about the numbers, that far fewer people showed up. Also, they say that the protests were largely organized by the National Front (the far right party) as well as the Church.
France's gay world is closeted compared to even England. They're sexist, too. They are progressive in tems of workers rights because of strong unions and a labour movement. Not so progressive in tems of men, women, and gay people.
I wonder how many of these shit heads were wearing mixed fibres and eat shellfish.
Maybe this is like the Chick Fil A protests, where people like Mike Huckabee assumed that because all those people showed up that meant that A. Americans would never vote for marriage equality and B. Romney would be our new President.
It's just a lot of noise.
Hogwash to the people saying the reason why the marriage equality advocates seem so punkish and weak is because human rights are assumed in Europe. If that is the reason, gay rights advocates are amongst the most naive and foolish advocates on the planet. Everyone knows you don't assume victory, you fight for it like your sweat, organization, and protests depend on it. You arouse your side to take to the streets, pressure Parliament, lure the media, until your agenda is the law, and then you remain vigilant to assure there are no slippages. This"we don't do grassroots and street protests" attitude among European gay rights advocates is foolish.
[quote]This"we don't do grassroots and street protests" attitude among European gay rights advocates is foolish.
Is this really the case? I mean France is [italic]the[/italic] country for demonstrations and strikes. Gay activists there haven't done this there yet? I don't know about other European countries but there were plenty of demonstrations of support in Spain.
Calm down girls.
These protest numbers are inflated. These protest mean nothing. The majority of the French are in favor of legalizing gay marriage.
Oh and by the way... just so you all know... the mayor of Paris is openly gay and announced it before his election.
He's been mayor since 2001.
My bet is all of France will have legalized gay marriage before the US does.
I'm not understanding the idea that France, which IS insular and intolerant, is representative of the rest of Europe. Civil unions are legal in the UK, and have been for years - in Scotland a civil union has exactly the same rights and responsibilities as hetero marriage (the Catholic church are currently complaining that changing the name from union to marriage will cause volcanoes or something), and gay rights are flourishing in the UK. Far ahead of the US, in fact. Most of Europe is much more tolerant than France.
What? France "insular and intolerant"? Most of Europe more tolerant than the French?
While France does have a far right party, they are boy-scouts compared to the far right parties in Northern Europe.
And in Northern Europe the Far Right parties are more popular and have made greater inroads.
Northern Europeans might be (up until now) more tolerant of gays... but take a look at how their far-right parties a gaining ground.
When you say northern Europe, which countries are you talking about? Certainly Poland has become very right wing, but the ex-eastern bloc countries, like France, are not representative of all. Or am I misunderstanding your meaning? I live in Europe, and see firsthand where the problems lie.
Gay marriage will become law in France. You need to worry about Hungary, Austria, and Serbia. Freaks galore in those countries.
LOTS of Muslims in France
When you say most of Europe, does that include Slovakia, Greece, Moldova, Poland, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, and Albania?
You're an idiot, R61. The right wing parties in Northern Europe don't have an anti-gay agenda and don't have any religious ties. If anything, they try to play on the homophobic attitutes of the Muslims.
Uh, r64 I think there's more than 1 mayor of Paris. The Gay Mayor is mayor to one part of Paris. There's a conservative gay mayor that's the Mayor in Arr. 11 etc.
And if anyone here has been keeping up with Paris or French news, Hollande can't come out and support gay marriage right now. He's under fire and the French despise him.
Soon the UMP is going to come back and Jean-Louis Cope is going to be the PM - just watch.
r8 an r69, I agree, not enough has been said about the possible influence and participation of Moslems/Muslims in all of this. Maybe they are finally getting what they tried to do in the 8th century at Tours when Charles Martel turned them back. A Moslem France, what a novel idea; I wonder what all the pro-immigration freaks think of that.
[quote]but the ex-eastern bloc countries, like France,
If France grants Gay Marriage they will be ahead of the UK. In EVERY country where Marriage rights were granted, there were demonstrations. Why pick on France?
r73 - while normally I would agree with you, looking at the photos show just the French at the protests, not Muslims.
And I'm one of the lonely Zionist types here at DL, so I'd be the first to say this, but no. It's not the Muslims in this case, well not from the photos.
It's the catholic church and the old school conservatives. They are small group in France but they are still there... just as they are in Spain and the UK (Anglican there)
r72 is an odd duck. You meant Jean-François Copé. And how can you know that name without knowing that since 1977 Paris has had, in addition to a mayor for each arrondissement, a strong central mayor (currently Bertrand Delanoë).
74, the meaning of "but the ex-eastern bloc countries, like France" was referring to the earlier part of the conversation, comparing those countries to France, as in addition to, not saying France is ex eastern bloc.
There is no difference. Just call them Muslims.
Can you imagine how stocky those lesbians would be if they were Americans?
I hear some saying these antigay groups are small, but the media sure is paying a lot of attention to them, and the government seems to be rather faint in its response to them. Internationally, the media perception is that the antigay forces have the gay rights folks on defense, and the progay side is rather mute in the face of the opposition. I would like to see some huge progay rallies in support of equality.
Marseille is full of Muslims. Not surprised if many of the protersters were Muslim.
Hollande is a wimp and the right knows it. He is already unpopular and conservatives are taking advantage of his weakness.
Hysterical fighting has broken out between the two men who wanted to succeed Sarkozy as head of the center-right opposition party. French politics are never tranquil but they are a real hot mess right now.
France seems to be declining.
Gay marriage has flourished in countries that have the most recent experience with authoritarian, oppressive governments (Spain, Portugal, Argentina). Makes sense.
France just lost its top Moody ranking so it won't get better for Hollande. Considering it's gotten to this point, I guess I'm not surprised how quickly his approval ratings dropped.
r90 is posting from every year since 1789. Still the world's 5th largest economy, bitches!
Oh, France has the fifth largest economy? Oh, I couldn't see that far down the list.
[quote]Hogwash to the people saying the reason why the marriage equality advocates seem so punkish and weak is because human rights are assumed in Europe.
The people who say that are 1000% correct. Every gay European I've met says that they don't have to fight for anything. They even see no problem with civil unions and not marriage. One of America's core values is separate-but-equal doesn't fly. Americans feel entitled to having the same rights as everyone else. Europeans are very naive when it comes to a lot of things. They see no problem with government intrusion either. "Well, if you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't worry," is something you'll hear a lot from them." They just automatically buy into a lot.
Europe uses a lot of what America did for themselves. Look at Stonewall. They've never had such things as that, at least not on the level that they've been able to brand their own groups by it. They never had the civil rights riots of the 1960s, and so, either. Look at the ACLU. America is very used to causing an uproar when it wants to.
Many European activists came forward and said that what happened in New York with gay marriage passing, had a profound affect on them and many countries. They watched that go down closely. Finally, people weren't all too happy with just civil unions.
It is odd how so many Western Europeans are so complacent about gay rights. It's probably because they don't have a Religious Right so intent on destroying them... As R91 sort of intimates, many of them have not recently had to fight for their basic civil rights.
Now that America is for gay rights, they are against it. Typical French.
But in France also, it seems unlikely that anyone--an employer, the gov--would try to use the civil union status to discriminate or look down on someone or to favor the married status as far as the law goes. It makes the marriage movement a lot less urgent there.
Marriage is for religious people; civil unions are for modern ones. It's a mindset that could never work here.
Maybe because a lot of the civil unions in Europe already granted all of the rights that traditional marriage does, R96?
And are you really saying that gay marriage passing in New York was the "inspiration" gay activists in Europe needed to want that for themselves? Please. Gay marriage was in place in lots of European countries before it was even contemplated in New York.
Don't you think that in every country that has legalized gay marriage already or is planning to, there are opponents? Do you actually believe that gay marriage is accepted by 100% of the population in those countries where it's legal and that no one ever voiced their opinion about it?
If the federal government in the U.S. planned to legislate that gay marriage was legal across the United States, you don't think people would organize protests?
France may indeed not be as great as the "myth" or not as liberal, but this means France is a completely valueless shithole?
"Marriage for all" march set for Dec 16. It will be big.
What a relief. I thought America had first dibs on all the assholes on the planet. Turns out they're everywhere.
The UK has a lot of them too.
[R10] I've met you many times. You're the guy who goes out of his way to shout and post homophobic slurs, but get a couple beers in you and you're begging all the gay friends of friends to cornhole you proper.
Carla Bruni has spoken out against her husband Nicolas Sarkozy's anti-gay comments after the ex-French president - now desperate for a political comeback - said the government "humiliate[d] families" by legalising equal marriage.
The Model, singer and songwriter, who is Sarkozy's third wife, told the French edition of Vogue that she can't say she has ever seen anything remotely wrong in a family led by a same-sex couple. We're with you there, Carla.
"I’m rather in favour because I have a lot of friends – men and women – who are in this situation and I see nothing unstable or perverse in families with gay parents," she said. "My husband is opposed for reasons linked to his political vocation, because he sees people as groups of thousands rather than people we know personally."
Sarkozy had said in a TV interview: "The government is humiliating families and humiliating people who love the family." When pressed, he denied that he would reverse the recent law change if he were voted back into power, because the unemployed are his top priority. Gee, thanks, Nic.
Oh Carla your husband is a spineless whore who would say anything for a vote. And a shady little cunt too.
R8 you are right.
It is NOT the actual French but the "religion that hates everyone and everything" who is against the gays.
I have been to France many times and spent a summer there--the French do not care who does what to who sexually.
Not so the whackadoodle immigrants from you know where.
You mean the Muslims?
Nicolas Sarkozy declared he is in favour of repealing the law legalising same-sex marriage in France, passed in the spring of 2013. This public stance is a first for Sarkozy, and a dramatic change from his previous, more liberal, position on the topic. Several of his allies and fellow senior party members have criticised the former president’s new posture.
“The law must be rewritten from top to bottom,” Sarkozy first said in front of an audience of 3,000 in Paris. He was then heckled by numerous people chanting “Repeal Repeal” while other booed him, the AFP news agency reported.
The ex-President then changed tone: “If you’d like it better that one says we must abrogate the law to create another one… In French, it means the same thing, it has the same results. But, well, if that pleases you, honestly, it’s not very costly.”
Saturday’s political meeting was organised by “Sens Commun” (common sense), a fringe political group claiming up to 10,000 members and has links to the UMP party. It is reported to be an offshoot of “La Manif Pour Tous,” a movement born out of the opposition to the bill legalising same-sex marriage in France, nicknamed “Taubira law” after the French Minister of Justice. In the run-up to the passing of the law, “La Manif Pour Tous” regularly drew tens of thousands of people on the streets to protest against the bill.
"One marriage for homosexuals, one for straight couples"
“I want a marriage for homosexual couples and a [different] marriage for straight couples, which takes into account the differences, because it is not the same thing,” Sarkozy also told the audience. Both will be celebrated in city halls, the difference, according to him, lays on the consequences of the marriages on filiation. French law currently grants the same rights to gay and straight couples.
Sarkozy, who harbours renewed presidential hopes, has tossed his hat in the ring to regain control of UMP, France’s main conservative party. The Sens Commun movement had invited all three candidates to the UMP presidency to quiz them on social issues.
One of the three, Bruno Le Maire, who refused to abrogate the law, was booed. Another, the UMP MP Hervé Mariton, an outspoken opponent of same-sex marriage and a darling of the “Manif Pour Tous”, received a standing ovation.
Sarkozy also received thunderous applause when he told the socially conservative crowd he was firmly against medically-assisted procreation and surrogacy pregnancies. But, while medically-assisted procreations are legal for clinically infertile straight couples in France, the Taubira law does not legalise either for same-sex couples.
The 59-year-old, who only recently returned to politics after his 2012 loss in the presidential elections was, until Saturday, very vague on the topic, reportedly not to be divisive in the conservative party.
Conservatives divided on same-sex marriage
In addition to the jibs and the uproar coming from the left side of the political spectrum, the division feared by Sarkozy did take place.
Since his declarations, several former UMP ministers and former allies publicly criticised his newfound viewpoint.
Nathalie Kosciusko-Morizet, a former minister under Sarkozy, his spokesperson during the 2012 presidential campaign, “strongly disagrees with his orientation”. For Kosciusko-Morizet, who currently backs Sarkozy for UMP leader, the abrogation of the law is “neither desirable, nor possible”.
Alain Juppé, Prime minister under Jacques Chirac and three-time minister under Sarkozy, said repealing the Taubira law “was not a good idea” and that same-sex marriage was a commonly accepted new step.
The French MEP Nadine Morano, often lampooned in satirical shows for being a Sarkozy cheerleader, tweeted: “The French had expected other priorities than the rewriting of the Taubira Law.”
Another of Sarkozy’s close allies, Nice mayor Christian Estrosi, told AFP he stayed by his previous statement that same-sex marriage was a “step forward” and that he was among those who say we will not go back on it.”
Sarkozy's changing stance
In 2007, a few days after his election, Sarkozy told the French gay community that "all the difference between love and desire is that love needs social recognition". He then commited to improve the PACS, France’s civil partnership, to include social, fiscal and successional equality between straight and same-sex couples. The reform never took place, according to the AFP news agency.
In 2011, reports surfaced that then-President Sarkozy was “privately” in favour of same-sex marriage. Running for reelection in 2012, Sarkozy was ready to include it in his programme. “He worked on it for weeks. He became a real specialist,” a conservative MP told French daily newspaper Libération. Same-sex marriage was eventually not on the president’s platform.
With his previous liberal positions, doubts persists over Sarkozy’s conversion, suspected to be fuelled by electoral interest. “Let’s not be credulous, it is for the moment nothing but a declaration of intent,” officials from La Manif Pour Tous said after the former president’s declaration.
It does not help his case that Sarkozy was recently reported as saying in private: “I don’t give a damn about same-sex marriage. It’s not a topic.”
At the very least, same-sex marriage seems less and less of an issue for the very own voters Sarkozy is courting, bar a vocal socially conservative minority.
According to a Ifop poll published on Saturday on the centre-right French news website Atlantico, 68% of the French are in favor of same-sex marriage and 53% are in favour of adoption for same-sex couples. Among UMP voters, the proportions are 58% and 38%, a rise of respectively 25 and 16 percentage points since January 2013.
Thanks for bumping on the second anniversary of the march (and this thread), R110
All these alleged heterosexuals fighting to keep gay people down ... you really gotta give them credit for evidencing the truth that THEY are abusive and cruel (just like the god most of them worship).
[quote]waits for [R11] and [R12] [same fudgepacker] to have another shrill meltdown.
A blast, I'm sure, but it's actually more fun to watch closeted freepers come here and make super-queeny sidecracks and then pretend to be straight.