I had no idea!
Abortion was outlawed in Ireland in 1861. In 1983, the ban became part of the constitution following a referendum.
However, politicians in Ireland have been under pressure to act after three Irish women successfully went to the European Court of Human Rights in 2009, complaining that their rights as European Union citizens was infringed by the abortion ban.
Woman denied an abortion dies in hospital in Ireland:
Northern Ireland where abortion is allowed for the life of the mother is only 120 miles from Galway.
Divorce was illegal in Ireland was illegal until fairly recently.
Hope the doctors in [r1]'s link get charged with murder.
Can we ship all of the crazy fundies to Ireland, then?
r5, where do you think they came from?
Are you serious? Divorce was only legalized in 1997. Ireland is mostly Roman Catholic, although the Irish themselves aren't hard core fundamentalists but in most European countries there is a national church - not the old communist counties though - even if many citizens are atheists. The US is unique in that sense.
Ireland is a backwater. Some of those places still have outhouses.
The people are much more liberal now but yeah the divorce thing and no abortion are ridiculous.
Given abortion in any cases is still illegal and divorce was only permitted 15 years ago, I'd say the Irish were pretty fundamentalist. Hardcore Catholics who suffered decades of sexual child abuse by the Church but instantly forgave the Irish Catholic Church.
I vote for Ireland to be a world example of a Christian theocracy.
Frankly, if you're pro life, logically there should be no exemption for any reason, rape or life of mother. The mother will live if its god's will. If not....
Fundies need to realize that you cannot have it both ways. PERIOD.
So r4, you'd rather they go against their beliefs and save this cunt? You have no idea what was going through their mind. I can tell you that it was not an easy decision to let her die but the sentiment against abortion there is very strong and they did what they felt was right. So Fuck you and your self righteousness.
r12 - If only your mother had aborted you.
Why do gay people carry water on this issue? You act like most women who have abortions do it for noble reasons. Sherri Shepherd on The View has stated that she stopped counting the number of abortions she had after 12. She's living the high-life now. Her career and personal life have never been better. For those of you that believe these women can't get over their decisions to have abortions look at Sherri Shepherd. There was a study done a couple years ago which showed women who had abortions were not torn up about it. Many abortions are done as a late form of birth control or because they don't like what the baby might be. I think those reasons are sick. This is why gay people need to control our destiny from conception.
Lol. I'm going to get my straight female friends to go out and get pregnant and then abort for no reason just as a gift for you r14. You've inspired me to encourage the killings of the precious baybeez, thanks!
I just wish I could do it myself right now :-(
R15, gross. It's crucial that women have the choice, but abortion technically IS the killing of a life. Still, not many people want to just call it what it is and assert that choice is more important. I'll never get why some people think it abortion should be taken lightly, even if it is a fact of life for many women.
Personally, I don't want to help pay for irresponsible people's MULTIPLE abortions from consensual sex pregnancy, though I guess there's really no way to distinguish. But that seems to be what most vocal activists in the USA want. While I understand, I think it's more important to be vocal about countries, like Ireland, with NO access for any reason.
Also, why are gay men randomly so supportive of this particular women's issue, but not so much others? Or maybe that's only on this website.
F&F r15. Not funny in the least. You deserve serrated a knife jammed down your fucking gash.
Let's stop the jokes about abortion. What happened to this woman is tragic but perhaps if she had the moral decency to seek another solution she and her baby would still be alive.
R17 I am slightly confused about your statement re the woman's moral decency. She presented at the hospital with a miscarriage in progress. The hospital refused to abort the foetus as it was still alive but died two days later by which point the woman had contracted septecaemia and died. There is uproar about it over here. It wasn't somebody who was too lazy or stupid to use contraception. God help the children of those people.
What Britain and Ireland need is a much stronger sex education policy and easy access to contraception.
Northern Ireland has only just got its first Marie Stopes clinic and only allows abortion up to nine weeks. Otherwise the young girls end up going across the water for abortions which wouldn't have been needed in the first place if they'd been educated properly.
Sorry for rambly post. I don't agree with using abortion as a form of birth control so we need to educate people to stop the necessity.
R17 has reading comprehension skills in addition to their faux moral superiority schtick.
Looks like someone's learnt how to clear their browser's cache.
It is very sad what has happened in Ireland,the land of our grandparents.
When we first visited it in 1992 we thought it had escaped the cancer known as the New World Order. We saw no "HIV/AID$" posters anywhere and also no drugs. The two go hand-in hand of course. Then when we went back in 1995 the NWO had already infected Ireland - "HIV/AID$" propaganda was everywhere and so were drugs.
This is what happens when religions control countries.
[quote]but abortion technically IS the killing of a life
no, it isn't
all those thick uncut red headed bushed cocks
R23, If its heart is beating, you're killing something. How people feel about it is going to vary, and that's fine. But it's alive.
Hey, R15 made laugh. Not all of us consider abortion the killing of a child. It is a group of cells essentially being a parasite in a women's body that could differentiate and develop into another human if everything goes well.
It is just basic biology and I think the the women has a right to decide if she wants to have a child or not, it isn't some minor decision.
Ireland's treatment of women is overall pretty shameful. It's no wonder they churn out some of the most clinically depressed people.
FYI, it is also illegal in Germany with some exceptions. This was a big issue with the reunification as abortion was legal in DDR (East Germany).
[quote]Sherri Shepherd on The View has stated that she stopped counting the number of abortions she had after 12. She's living the high-life now. Her career and personal life have never been better. For those of you that believe these women can't get over their decisions to have abortions look at Sherri Shepherd.
I'm not a fan of Shepherd's, but what are you talking about? When did she say she had even 12 abortions?
She said, "Before I converted to Christianity, I was a Jehovah’s Witness. In 1993, my mother was dying from diabetic complications. My sister was heavy into drugs, and we would have to go and get her from crack houses. I was in a very physically abusive relationship. I was sleeping with a lot of guys and had more abortions than I would like to count. I had very low self-esteem and just wanted to die... I would have put my child in a lot of situations that wouldn’t have been good because I didn’t have the mental capacity to deal with having a child."
She also said, "women who go through a lot of shame and guilt about having abortions.”
She isn't flippant about it at all.
Ratzi the Nazi is in charge in Ireland.
R26- Before a certain point, yes. I go both ways on this because I'm tired of both "sides" of this "argument" not acknowledging truth in each. It only makes each side look all the more absurd.
[quote]R5, where do you think they came from?
If you knew anything about history, you would know that most American fundamentalist Christians are of Scots-Irish descent, which means they ORIGINALLY-originally came from Scotland, and that they aren't associated with the Republic of Ireland at all, but Northern Ireland, which is part of the UK and has legal abortion.
Most Irish-Americans are Catholic, and (like most American Catholics) are just as likely to be socially liberal and pro-choice as they are to be socially conservative and anti-choice. I hope you don't make the mistake of conflating all Catholics with the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. There's a big difference between people like Rick Santorum and Joe Biden.
Besides making the woman suffer through a foregone conclusion, given the immediate medical background of the patient and her symptoms, it sounds like they should have treated her empirically with antibiotics. Septicemia can be aggressive but not untreatable. This isn't the only nightmare I've heard of about from the Irish medical system and not just in cases of the poor. Even those who are better off with private plans can die waiting for procedures or are undertreated. Both situations happened to the dads of two of my friends. From what I was told by a nurse friend of mine in England there are similar problems there.
I realize there are limited funds but through the 90s boom they should have investigated and upgraded their medical system. I know it's a bit off topic but still related to the story.
Until someone can prove that humans have souls and animals don't, then unless you're a vegetarian or vegan, the whole "how dare you harm that cell cluster!? it has a pulse!" argument doesn't hold water for me. You can't crow about how precious "life" is and then go eat a fucking hamburger. Cows, pigs, lambs, even chickens all have more sentience and capacity to suffer than a fetus and we humans have no apparent reservations about raising them to pain and slaughter by the millions.
Women who have abortions without being raoed are irresponsible worthless sluts. Same goes for the men involved.
Meant to write "raped". Am typing on my phone, sorry.
I was an irresponsible worthless slut. I don't think dropping out of high school and living on food stamps and welfare is so completely responsible. I'm glad I didn't have to drag some poor child along while I continued to make poor choices and mess up my and its life. Years later I am a "productive" member of society and am no longer an irresponsible worthless slut.
R34, but be careful how you assert your own argument, because 1.) most of the time, we're not talking about cell clusters. You should know that. 2.) You're not considering that our species *does* dominate and expect inherent value just for being human. Do I agree with that? Not really. I actually haven't eaten meat in years because I disagree with that industry. Unfortunately, there will always be something unfortunate linked to human consumption. Anyway, the "is abortion mean or not" argument will never be resolved, because both sides have double standards and speak on two completely different levels. It doesn't even have to go back to religion. Each side, however, needs to work on calling a spade a spade and use foresight when stating what they want to see happen with this issue.
[quote] it sounds like they should have treated her empirically with antibiotics
Irish medicine is in the dark ages.
My uncle took his brothers and sisters to Ireland as a gift. One of my aunts suffers from diverticulitis and became ill the very first day. She was hospitalized. She had an IV the first day and was given an antibiotic. They took the IV out the second day. Why, I have no idea. They never gave her any more antibiotics. She ate NOTHING. She was in agony in that hospital for 12 days. One of my uncles stayed with her while the rest of the siblings (typical huge Irish family of 10) traveled throughout the south and north of Ireland. Finally, it was time to go back home. She signed out of the hospital and two siblings helped her onto the plane. I told my mother to tell the stewardesses that she needed to be hospitalized upon arrival at JFK. I actually knew the person who ran airport medicine at that time. But nooooo.
Good Irish girls don't make a fuss. They are obedient to authority and wait. She went home and called her dr and was told to come into the office next week. Of course, my mother wound up taking her to the local ER in the middle of the night when she had a temp of 104. They put her in ICU where she finally received round the clock antibiotics and hydration. She was later taken to the OR.
Nearly two weeks of almost no treatment in an Irish hospital.
I later found out that an NP friend of mine was getting prescriptions for Parkinsonian meds filled here in the US and mailed to her mother in Ireland because they don't treat Parkinson's disease in Ireland. It's considered to be an old age disease, and they don't bother treating old age diseases over there. Their attitude was "Americans make such a fuss over things like old age diseases! You have way too much time and money on your hands! We're way too poor to do such things! Everybody has to die of something."
This was not in the 1950s. It was the 1990s.
Culturally, socially, and politically, there is no separation of church and state in Ireland. The Irish people need to stand up to the church.
Are you people for real? Outhouses? No separation of church and state? The sweeping generalisations about Ireland, our people, our social and political milieu and our values are disgraceful and frankly, borderline racist.
How many of you have actually been to Ireland? The Ireland you describe here is not the Ireland of today. The Tánaiste, or second-in-command if you will, only yesterday proposed amending the constitution to allow for same-sex marriage, expanding the rights of gay men and lesbians beyond civil partnership. Is that what you'd expect from a backwater?
The Savita case is sad but amounts to a reflection on poor judgement on the part of the doctors treating her, and not a reflection on the entire nation. Terminations are permitted where the life of the mother is in danger. These doctors made a terrible mistake but you cannot use that to denigrate an entire country and its people.
Finally, r42 is the only person giving a realistic view of Ireland
[quote]Americans make such a fuss over things like old age diseases! You have way too much time and money on your hands
The same in England. "Americans think they should be kept alive and expect various procedures and treatments...etc..." it is a cultural difference, in Europe people just die, sometimes waiting for a procedure, sometimes nothing is offered, and it's just accepted even if they are fairly young.
In the US, at least in major NY hospitals now, they have alternative medicine departments which, if the patient opts for it, will cut down on the drugs.
Anyway sorry your mom had to suffer. We'll never know if the poor woman would have gotten septicemia or not had they moved sooner, but it sounds like they missed some obvious symptoms. Antibiotics are overused and cause problems themselves but used responsibly they can sure save lives.
That's what I meant when I said the Irish aren't hardliners R42. Even people who consider themselves RC and a lot weren't all that religious. They did as a group seem open to gays. But even in the 90s they could say things that were very racist, they didn't understand what racism was.
[quote] The sweeping generalisations about Ireland, our people, our social and political milieu and our values are disgraceful and frankly, borderline racist.
No generalization here, only truth : Irish. Medical. Care. Sucks.
[quote]Women who have abortions without being raoed are irresponsible worthless sluts. Same goes for the men involved.
Newsflash, knuckledragger: NO form of birth control save abstinence is 100% effective. Every single kind has a failure rate, and not every woman responds in the same way to each type of birth control. Some women get pregnant when using *multiple* forms of birth control, as a married aunt of mine did. Your judgmental, misogynistic view of morality is the sign of a stunted mind.
What you're really saying is that *anyone* who is sexually active is a slut. I'm sorry no one will fuck you, but please don't project your own issues onto the rest of the world's population.
I'm going out tonight. I hope to get raod.
I'm constantly astounded by the fact that in the Bible the only penalty for causing an abortion only kicks in if the mother dies too.
Otherwise there's no prohibition whatsoever. It may have come about by a papal bull but I trust that as much as I trust there to be a god, which is not at all. The Catholic church and Protestantism as well as Islam and Judaism are all based on make believe and nothing more.
R25 if its living, then take it out of the mother's body and let it live on its own.
R50, There is no way that any one side is 100% correct about what they (or you) are trying to assert. It's a matter of disagreement about where to draw the line, and, is ultimately rather arbitrary.
I don't even know why people bother arguing it when the ultimate point is for pre-existing humans to have authority to choose the series of events of their bodies. Like I and others have said, the "argument" is two different things, will never be solved, and can become absurd very quickly on behalf of all parties involved.
Special damnation for R12: "So [R4], you'd rather they go against their beliefs and save this cunt? You have no idea what was going through their mind. I can tell you that it was not an easy decision to let her die but the sentiment against abortion there is very strong and they did what they felt was right. So Fuck you and your self righteousness."
A woman lost her life because her doctors dismissed her as less important than a bundle of cells which proved incapable of surviving after she died. And you call her a CUNT?? If R12 ever develops an invasive disease maybe he'll get to experience the hell this poor woman and her family went through and MAYBE then he'll have acquired the self-righteousness to justify his misogyny.
If she'd been a gay man denied AIDS treatment because of various 'choices' would we have seen half the negative responses seen on here so far? I don't think so!
r49 where does the bible say anything about abortion?
From what I understand, Christians believe that the souls of aborted babies go straight to heaven. So why is this not a good thing? If they grew up, and lived sinful lives, they would burn in hell for an eternity.
If I believed in a psychopathic God who tortured people for not believing in the right religion, I would celebrate abortion.
Fight the real war!
OP, water is wet too.
Get me....a knitting needle!!!
Irish girls prefer to take the ferry to England than go to northern Ireland for abortions. Obviously , this woman couldn't get on a ferry. But one of those nurses or doctors could have told her she could sign out and go to Ulster for a termination. I can't believe they wouldn't at least do that.
The official religion of the New World Order is atheism.
Why do dykes and faggots think they have any say in how mainstream straight society regulates abortion?
It never ceases to amaze me how people who don't give a rat's ass about the living are the same people who care so much about a cluster of cells that have no chance of survival outside a woman's body.
The objection to abortion isn't about god, it's about controlling women's bodies and destiny.
"Unlike the rest of the UK, Northern Ireland does not have an Abortion Act. Instead an 1861 law makes it a criminal offence to procure a miscarriage.
In 1945 an exception was added that abortion could be permitted to preserve the life of the mother. Abortions are also allowed if continuing with the pregnancy will result in other serious physical or mental health effects."
Taken from the bbc website.
Suvita would likely have been given a termination in the north but abortion laws here are not the same as England, Scotland and Wales. Marie Stopes will provide medical abortions up to nine weeks. NHS doctors will provide abortions in more extreme circumstances as listed above.
I suspect Suvita didn't come to the North because she was in too much pain and too ill to travel. It is likely it wasn't even considered. It is not the easiest journey to make despite it being only 120 miles.
The National Women's Council of Ireland has started a campaign for more clarity and freedom in the laws so this does not happen again. A different doctor in a different hospital and we would quite likely not be having this discussion.
Terminations are NOT permitted in the Irish republic. You are completely mistaken if you think they are. Abortion remains illegal in Ireland. As for Eamonn Gilmore's (our "second in command") remarks about gay marriage, talk's cheap. Lets see some legislation.
reporting live, from, downtown Dublin...
To the Irish posters: do you think Savita's ethnic background may have played a part in the doctors' negligence of her septic condition?
"Why do dykes and faggots think they have any say in how mainstream straight society regulates abortion."
I guess it's the same reason "straight" assholes like you and R62 keep sticking your nose in matters that affect gay people like gay marriage, hate crimes and equal protection under the law.
I don't know, with the EU crisis, there are so many cuts in Ireland, the Health sector received a long and deep slash.
No R65. But I think Americans- who have their own problems with drug related deaths in hospitals, misdiagnosis, and poorly done procedures- would go into shock at the shabby medical treatment in Ireland and other European countries. Basically they are underfunded and also have MUCH lower expectations. My question about the poor woman's septicemia was based on other cases I know of.
R62 The question that needs to be asked is: was Savita treated in line with existing obstetrical practice in Ireland? In this kind of situation the baby can be induced early (though is very unlikely to survive, in effect a termination to protect the life of the mother). The decision to induce labour early would be fully in compliance with the law and the current guidelines set out for doctors by the Irish Medical Council
Those guidelines allow interventions to treat women where necessary, even if that treatment indirectly results in the death to the baby. If they aren't being followed, laws about abortion won't change that.
The issue is about medical protocols being followed in hospitals and not about the absence of legal abortion in Ireland.
Professor John Bonnar, then chairman of the Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, spoke about the matter to the All Party Oireachtas Committee's Fifth Report on Abortion, said: "In current obstetrical practice, rare complications can arise where therapeutic intervention is required at a stage in pregnancy when there will be little or no prospect for the survival of the baby, due to extreme immaturity.
"In these exceptional situations failure to intervene may result in the death of both the mother and baby. We consider that there is a fundamental difference between abortion carried out with the intention of taking the life of the baby, for example for social reasons, and the unavoidable death of the baby resulting from essential treatment to protect the life of the mother."
With this medical practice Ireland, thankfully, has one of the lowest death rates of mothers in pregnancy anywhere in the world.
Our generally excellent record on maternal care doesn't of course help Praveen Halappenavar, who is today dealing with the loss of his beautiful wife and the baby they expected together. Yet this terrible situation should not be used to push an ideological agenda to introduce abortion. Any debate on the issue of abortion should be carried out in a reasonable manner. It does no service to Savita's memory to use her tragic death as an impetus for legislation that is bad for both women and their babies.
The most rudimentary obstetrical care would call for Sativa to be given antibiotics 24 hours after her water broke. But being Ireland, they didn't do it and I believe it's because Irish medicine sucks. No racial reason. It truly, truly sucks. My family has personal experience with this.
I worked at a renowned medical center. Many of the employees were from upper class homes who traveled extensively. I can't tell you how many stories I heard of people trying to get their relatives out of a foreign country when a relative on vacation became ill. A workmate's mother died of a stroke before she could be brought home from Italy. Another person was trying desperately to get her father home from some country with a "holy site" where people go for miracles. Luckily for him, one of our surgeons got on the phone to a friend in the state department who had the father flown to the US with medical attendance on board. The man had a heart attack and basically they were just sitting him in a hospital until he either died or got better on his own. They didn't have any clot busting therapy, he didn't have an intravenous line, they weren't giving him oxygen, etc. He would have died, because they inserted a heart assist device as soon as he got off the plane and scheduled him for surgery.
We had a surgeon who used to bring children with cerebral palsy to the US from Italy and Greece and do surgeries for spasticity on them. He said they not only didn't do this type of surgery over there, but that in Italy they didn't even have a name for cerebral palsy. They just called any symptom of CP a birth defect and didn't treat it. It was like, "Tough luck. Poor kid was with a permanent birth defect, waddaya gonna do? That's the breaks."
European medicine is not equal among European countries. You'd be better off in France than in Italy or Ireland and lets not even discuss Eastern Europe.
Anyway -- in America, you would start someone on IV antibiotics in 24 hours when the amniotic fluid was expelled. Your patient is sure to get an infection if you do not.
R70 I think you're right. There's more information. The poor woman had been brought in with a severe backache and vomiting. This can indicate kidney infection which should have been addressed immediately and could also have contributed to the miscarriage. Once the water broke there would be infection on top of infection, and none of it was treated.
It's not yet clear if the septicemia came from the kidney, appendix or where. But it does sound like she had a full-blown infection when she was admitted to hospital.
[quote] you'd rather they go against their beliefs and save this cunt? You have no idea what was going through their mind. I can tell you that it was not an easy decision to let her die but the sentiment against abortion there is very strong and they did what they felt was right. So Fuck you and your self righteousness.
Yes, I wanted them to save her life. A Doctor takes an oath to first do no harm to the life of a patient. The mother was the patient and the baby was already dead. They just needed to get the dead baby out of her because it was making her septic with a massive infection. That isn't an abortion either
Think of all the happy little babies that are alive now because of this law.
'Why do dykes and faggots think they have any say in how mainstream straight society regulates abortion?"
Oh, if you're not a soldier why should you have any say if whether your nation goes to war or not?
If you aren't black why should you care about racial justice?
If you aren't an animal why should you care about animal conservation?
Idiotic question, dear.
In Ireland the church has way too much power over medicine and education, the indignant poster about marriage notwithstanding.
20,000 health women die every year in India due to abortion complications.
R14, Sherri is dumber than a box of hair and too fucking stupid to use birth control.
[quote]Personally, I don't want to help pay for irresponsible people's MULTIPLE abortions from consensual sex pregnancy,
You don't pay for it. Abortions are a cash upfront operation. Believe me, I know.
"Think of all the happy little babies that are alive now because of this law. "
What makes you think they're happy, if they're being born into desperate situations, and to people who didn't want a child?
R12 - So you approve of the murder of a previously healthy person? Please explain.
[quote]These doctors made a terrible mistake but you cannot use that to denigrate an entire country and its people.
And how do you know that it was a mistake? "Whoopsie, it was an accident! We didn't mean for her to suffer excruciating pain for three days and then die when life-saving treatment was readily available. So sorry!"
It sounded like the deliberate withholding of life-saving medical intervention due to their religious beliefs held in a theocracy. It was a gross violation of the hypocratic oath. In other words, they willfully and knowingly committed a murder. Don't want to call it a homicide? How about manslaughter? Fortunatly, in their pious, yet feeble minds, they are innocent of the worst crime of all -- abortion.
If they are truly Catholic believers, they should be fully expecting eternal damnation for the pain and suffering they caused to the innocent dead woman and her family. But, no, it was an unfortunate [italic]mistake[/italic] in their minds and, thus, they're entitled to the reward of eternal salvation, along with Ratzenberger et al.
Criminal prosecution and cancellation of their licenses to practice medicine would be the only just outcomes.
How is it murder r78? she had zero right seeking an abortion there.
Can't read, R80?
I've never met a misogynist who was bright.
Is there some paid faction of pro-life groups who troll the web for any mention of abortion?