What is their problem? They are pro-war, pro-death penalty and don't give a shit about the poor and orphaned children already in existence but are obsessed with abortion and imaginary babies.
Is this a mental disorder or just being selfish assholes?
It's a tried and true way to control women.
Plenty of pro lifers are against the war of the day, you just wouldn't know it from the media.
They are so obsessed with abortion that they call the morning after pill "the abortion pill"
Hey, idiots, stopping a pregnancy from occurring in the first place isn't the same thing as having an abortion
Antiabortion literature always shows images of the fetus as floating in infinite space like the "2001" baby. They never show it as it is in real life, crammed inside a woman's abdomen next to the bladder and intestines.
Suggest that inheritance rights be extended to the just conceived fetus.
They're trying to shame women into not having recreational sex and just settle for being treated like chattel.
They are racist.
The more children born in poverty, the larger the families and the less likely that people of color can get out of poverty or take a spot for their child at Harvard.
R7 is fundamentally correct.
It's a control issue.
It's a mental defect.
The only people who I know that are anti-abortion are two friends who have gone through one. One is a psychologist and the other an artist, and neither are affiliated with a church.
I've also known women to have abortions and think nothing of it...
It is about their fantasy of being able to repeatedly rape a woman from the inside, the floating fetus is how they fantasize their penis looks. They are into the shit producing destruction of women because they can't cope with the idea of just enjoying the penis they have. Their fantasy sex has to be some sort of messianic vagina ripping Jesus fetus.
Because they see the rest of the world as animals, who deserve what they get. They see them as a threat to society, so they're just protecting the innocent - fetuses fall into the innocent category. The death penalty is seen as someone who is executed for not protecting the innocent. Protect the innocent at all costs.
That being said, there are tons of pro-lifers who are anti-death penalty, and anti-war.
The ones who says that all life is precious, they are the extremely hypocritical ones if they're pro-war/pro-death penalty. The Catholic Church is pretty consistent in the death arena today.
abortion is a fancy word for murder
Death by saline or piecing. I can't choose.
[quote]Because they see the rest of the world as animals, who deserve what they get. They see them as a threat to society, so they're just protecting the innocent - fetuses fall into the innocent category.
And you NEVER see them adopting these fetuses they obsess over.
I think the GOP should establish a cabinet level position for an Adoption Czar making it easy and efficient for all their evangelical supporters to take in pregnant women who otherwise would have an abortion, see them through their pregnancies and then adopt their children.
Maybe I'd respect them a little bit then.
R1 and R7 are right.
It is part of their religion in many cases, but I find right-wing people (especially men) pick and choose their platform, so to speak, to re-enforce their reactionary comfort zones.
In fairness, I have read and talked to a small minority of Christians (usually women) who are personally anti-abortion, but call for murdering abortion doctors or harassing women at clinics.
Hilarious r18! Sadly, we'll never see anything like that happen!
*don't* call for murdering doctors, etc...
They are not actually concerned about the "child" they are concerned that the killing of the child will adversely affect their ability to get into heaven. The brain washing seems to be along those lines, congregants are made to believe that their salvation and the salvation of the nation is tied to them being able to stop the sinful actions of the others. Its much easier than controlling your own behavior.
Yea I guess it is a mental defect to be against killing an innocent baby. Wait I got that backwards. You piece of trash. To bad you weren't aborted.
R23=freeptard. A first trimester fetus is not a baby.
So its not eventually going to be a baby? Keep telling yourself that if that keeps your conscious clean.
What if someone said that only gays should be aborted? Also, it's not as if abortion is achieved by waving a magic wand around or something.
Whatever you call it, it's a living organism since conception. The term 'fetus' doesn't mean it's not a person. A baby is a newborn, an infant, then a toddler, etc..
[quote]They are pro-war, pro-death penalty and don't give a shit about the poor and orphaned children already in existence
They also don't give a shit about the unborn.
Flip that over and look at it the other way - they want to push something no one wants pushed on them in every situation. They just want women to suffer like they want everyone else to suffer.
They have that fetid "others must suffer" complex that most religious freaks have.
Yes, it is a living organism but it's not a cute, cuddly little "baby" as some seem to think it is.
I think you answered your own question.
By being anti-choice, they get to wash their conscience clean from their pro-war, pro-death, selfish, greedy ways.
They get to take the moral high ground away from this who are pro-choice, anti-war, anti-death penalty, pro-helping the poor.
Abortion is their trump card. They get to suddenly be the righteous ones again, when all other sign point the other way.
It helps them sleep at night, I guess.
**those who are
Why is this even STILL a thing in this fucking country!?!?!
Europe is so beyond us in so many ways it's embarrassing. They don't even care about this anymore. WHY DO WE????
Does anyone in here wish they'd been aborted? And by which method?
R26 presents a dilemma for evangelical anti-abortion, anti-gay fanatics. However, if posed the question if they would accept abortion if the fetus were going to be gay, they would, of course, answer that homosexuality is a choice.
I apologize for not getting the wire hanger all the way in when I tried to abort R23/25.
I'm sorry, what did Jesus have to say about abortion, an act well known for the past 3,000 years? Oh, OK.
What did he have Jesus have to say about saving the hungry, naked, thirsty, and sick? Oh, OK.
What bearing do your religious beliefs have on other people's actions in the United States? Oh, OK!
R35, dumb question. If you'd never been born you would have no consciousness therefore you couldn't care one way or the other.
R39, you're suggesting a person isn't conscious until they are outside the mother? And you are calling me the dumb one?
It's a MENTAL DISORDER.
[quote]I think the GOP should establish a cabinet level position for an Adoption Czar making it easy and efficient for all their evangelical supporters to take in pregnant women who otherwise would have an abortion, see them through their pregnancies and then adopt their children.
OK R18. But those poor adopted children raised by all those evangelicals would probably have lousy childhoods, & then inflict their adoptive parents' crazy religion on everyone else.
Poor adopted rape babies. Between the pathological genetics and the psychotic environment I think we could be assured they would turn out terrible.
R40 I certainly don't remember anything when I was in the womb. If you then please post your memories.
"if you do"
Don't think I can remember anything R44, but that doesn't mean we weren't conscious when we were in that present time. Also, the baby in the womb winces in pain and tries to avoid being chopped up.
I've posted this in totally different threads at DL(not about abortion) when the discussion veered towards early childhood memories. It's something I'm very interested in. I'm convinced that these types of stories are true. Some people have VERY early life memories:
NYC fraus have a new 9/11 - the nanny that stabbed the two kids.
UrbanBaby is full of grief porn this evening.
Why do some people seem to think that a soul only enters you once you've come out of a vagina? Seems kind of arbitrary to me. Does the vagina have magical powers?
No male with a big cock cares about this. This is only an obsession for tinymeats. Classic case of transference.
I don't know, I can only speak for myself. No one will ever agree on this.
Abortion from when the heart starts to beat is a sad idea to me, though I ultimately support a society that doesn't ban it. I'm bisexual, but consider it my responsibility to do everything I can to avoid pregnancy from hetero sex, because I'd rather be careful than *personally* have an abortion. Some feminists would tell me I'm a woman-hater for this opinion (not having unprotected sex wherever, whenever), and that I repress the feminist movement, which is fucking ridiculous. It's my personal priority list of things I'd rather or rather not do with my own body.
R51, people would seriously call you a woman hater and repressed for that?
The fetus don't take away my gun taxes marriage is between a man and a woman welfare cheats price of gas car truck jeep football war.
Dilly silly idiots
R52, Absolutely. And not so much repressed (sorry if not clear). Rather, someone who holds back the feminist/women's rights agenda(s), and someone who endorses "female sexual shame" passively.
I considered myself a feminist, and secretly still do, but I've read what the most aggressive groups have to say. And I realized that I just can't understand or go along with the methods and examples by which they assert some of their chosen points.
"I considered myself a feminist, and secretly still do,"
How sad that 'feminist' is still considered a dirty word - a reference to be used in secret.
So not having unsafe sex, trying to avoid becoming pregnant rather than committing infanticide makes you repressed and evil, and in opposition to women? Many of these feminists are nuts.
R56: You might be misunderstanding, if your post is for real. "Secret" as in certain feminists scared me away from calling myself a feminist--because according to their logic, THEY insist that I'm not one. Not as in I'm ashamed of the word or of equality.
Its all about controlling women. Thats why every time I see the protestors standing out by the road near the Planned Parenthood clinic are old men. They come from a time and place where women had no say in their life. They cant deal with the fact that times have changed and they are no longer the people with all the political clout. These same old men would gladly cut funding for schools and children's health care. They dont care about the kids once they are born.
I am amused by all of the people on this board who have stereotyped and group together all folks who oppose abortion, and have assigned the most evil possible motivation to the entire group. Similar to the way that many stereotype homosexuals, without educating themselves and without personally knowing any gay folk. listen, bottom line, despite what you might think, the majority of pro life supporters actually, sincerely and genuinely believe, either by faith and many by belief that science for the most part supports now and eventually will competely support the position, that life begins at the moment of conception. if life begins at the moment of conception, taking that life is murder to them, no matter what the circumstances. and by the way, it is called the abortion pill because it prevents an already fertilized embroyo (life begins at the moment of conception) from implanting, thus "aborting" the embryo/life.
it would be nice if people here could educate themselves before they spew, but since we cannot expect that of others when it comes to homosexuality, i guess we cannot expect that here either.
"I considered myself a feminist, and secretly still do, but I've read what the most aggressive groups have to say. And I realized that I just can't understand or go along with the methods and examples by which they assert some of their chosen points."
You sound like an uneducated tea party reactionary. Feminism isn't the problem - Republicans are.
"The only people who I know that are anti-abortion"
ALL people are anti-abortion. Some people believe that a woman should have the choice to control her own body if she wants to terminated a pregnancy without government involvement.
What R59 said.
I am female - I don't know if I could ever have an abortion but it is not up to me to make that decision for someone else - that's why its called PRO CHOICE not pro abortion. I'm sorry men but you will never understand what its like to face the real possibility of pregnancy and what that means for your life. Birth control methods fail, relationships fail, economic stability fails but once the unborn fetus becomes a child its a human that you are responsible for whether or not there is anyone else to help you take care of them. And the dirty secret is that abortion helps prevent more poverty which in turn prevents more crime.
bIRTH control and condoms, not killing babies
The unborn child is a separate entity from the mother. A car is not part of a house just because it's parked in the garage.
[quote]life begins at the moment of conception
People who believe this are retarded. Life does not start at conception. If there is no respiration, no function organs, no brain wave activity and no beating heart, then its not alive. If you were wheeled into an ER and had the same vitals as a fertilized egg, they would send you down to the morgue. Now go ahead, cry and say I'm being mean and generalizing, but when you say stupid shit like this, then you should expect to be called stupid.
"either by faith and many by belief that science for the most part supports now and eventually will competely support the position, that life begins at the moment of conception."
Well, that sounds like an incredibly firm and rational basis on which to take away a woman's civil rights in the United States of America!
Liberals are aborting themselves into extinction.
In the black community, abortion is referred to as 'crime prevention'.
R69 So why are conservatives so opposed to abortion? Sounds like a win win situation for them.
I love you R67.
[quote]Why do some people seem to think that a soul only enters you once you've come out of a vagina? Seems kind of arbitrary to me. Does the vagina have magical powers?
R49, you don't have a "soul" either inside or outside of the vagina. Stop spouting such stupid, mystical nonsense, and get some education.
[quote]The unborn child is a separate entity from the mother. A car is not part of a house just because it's parked in the garage.
I can drive my car out of the garage with neither the house nor the car being affected. Please feel free to try that with a 20-day-old fetus and let us know if you want to rethink that idiotic analogy.
The idea that fetuses are "separate people" at the moment of conception is ridiculous. If they are separate people and unwanted, why don't they get out of that vagina and get a goddamn job?
The whole point of abortion is terminating a pregnancy before the fetus is viable. If it is viable, there is no abortion, contrary to Republican propaganda. Don't you Republicans understand enough biology to understand fetuses can't live outside their mother until a certain point? How the hell can you say they are "separate" if they can't survive without the mother? That's not separate. If they are separate at the time of conception, then take them out, leave them on the table, and if they get up and walk out of the room they are separate.
[quote]I am amused by all of the people on this board who have stereotyped and group together all folks who oppose abortion
I am amused by idiots who assume that they can generalize about "all of the people on this board."
[quote]and have assigned the most evil possible motivation to the entire group.
*Shrug* What difference does it make what the motivation is if the denial is the same? You want to take away a woman's right to choose, to control her own body. I don't really give a damn whether you're doing it because you're "evil" or because you're "sincere."
[quote]listen, bottom line, despite what you might think, the majority of pro life supporters actually, sincerely and genuinely believe, either by faith and many by belief that science for the most part supports now and eventually will competely support the position, that life begins at the moment of conception.
There are two problems with this assertion. The first is that, as noted above, it doesn't make a difference. You still should not be allowed to control what someone else does with her body, regardless of your beliefs and motivations.
And the second is that you're trying to bring science into this inappropriately. No, science does not support now, nor will it ever "competely" [sic] support, the position that life begins at the moment of conception. You may firmly believe this; that belief is not based on anything resembling real science.
[quote]it would be nice if people here could educate themselves before they spew
LOL.... Oh, the irony.... Perhaps you should try some of that "education" yourself?
[quote]"I considered myself a feminist, and secretly still do, but I've read what the most aggressive groups have to say. And I realized that I just can't understand or go along with the methods and examples by which they assert some of their chosen points."
You sound like an uneducated tea party reactionary. Feminism isn't the problem - Republicans are.
WHOA, WHOA, WHOA. When did I say that feminists are "the problem"? Dare I say that I didn't even define "the problem"? If I somehow did, then perhaps I was unclear. Or maybe you're an uneducated uneducated tea party reactionary reactionary. I guess that's a thing. But you wouldn't be correct. I don't know what you're inferring.
To me, whether separate personhood begins at conception or not, I PERSONALLY would rather not have to get an abortion. I'm not religious. I believe we're better off not banning it. But you can't change or convince away how someone feels about PERSONALLY getting an abortion. That is part of my version of how I take authority of my own body. Go ahead and call it "silly," as I'm sure you've had plenty of personal choices based on personal feeling that might very well be described as "silly."
What most of them don't get is that by taking a choice away from the woman they are essentially saying "you are an incubator and nothing else". They sound like the nuts in The Handmaid's Tale.
The idea that women who want to control their own body, without the permission of a man they don't know, who doesn't care about them personally, who is oppressing their right to self-determination as a means to get a job, are "aggressive," or even "feminist," can only come from an extremist, radical, woman-hating Republican.
Since when is not wanting to be a slave to the government "aggressive"? Since when is freedom "aggressiveness"? Only if you're a fascist.
Or George Orwell.
Well let me say that as an atheist I am against abortion. If a woman gets pregnant she should not be allowed to murder her son/daughter. I'm sorry but what is so hard to understand about not killing your unborn child?
I call bullshit on R80 The fact that you are an atheist is totally irrelevant. Id wager you are not an atheist.
A child R80? A fetus is more like it perhaps. Even a lump of tissue. Do you think a woman's only value is as a broodmare? What if her life is in danger or if she is knocked by being raped by her brother or father?
It's much more complicated than your knee jerk, emotional reaction of "they're killing a baaaaaby!!".
Don't believe in god therefore I am an atheist. As for extreme reasons to get an abortion like rape, incest, life of a mother: yes I would allow abortion for those situations. However, most abortions are not done for those reasons. I think that getting an abortion just so you "control your body" is really immoral.
R79 No, it shouldn't even be that it's referred to as "feminism." But it is. Unless there's a new rule that [those who support equality for women? *ducks and covers*] mustn't ever call themselves feminists again, as of immediately, in which case you just wrote off a significant number of very valuable advocates of equality.
And women's rights advocation is understandably aggressive. What I'm saying is that we don't all agree with each other about every last detail or strategy, which somehow come to yield huge contentious issues= internal aggression due to the nature and urgency of what there is to fight. I've witnessed a ton of abrupt nastiness based on semantics alone, which is A WASTE OF TIME in pursuits against Repug agendas against women.
R83 you have a right to your opinion but you don't have a right to force a woman to go through a pregnancy. You see the difference?
O please R83, cram it. Being an atheist is totally irrelevant to your statement. Its like saying, "as an atheist, I am against extra toppings on my pizza." Being an atheist has NOTHING to do with the issue. What, do you think it somehow gives you more authority on the matter? It doesn't. All it does it make you sound fake.
[quote]I think that getting an abortion just so you "control your body" is really immoral.
So anything you think is "immoral" you want to make illegal? Your view of "immorality" is more important than the woman's control of her own body? Because you don't approve of her getting an abortion, you think you're justified in forcing her to carry that child, regardless of its cost to her and to the child when it is born?
Liberals are aborting themselves into extinction."
As someone who attended a very conservative all-girl Catholic high school for three years, all I can say is buuuuuullllshiiiit. If anything, conservatives are more likely to abort as they're too repressed and in denial about their sexuality to use contraception.
Dumbest remark I've heard from one anti-abortion nut about Planned Parenthood clinics is:
[quote]Obama keeps pushing the lie that PP does mammograms,which they don't.PP has no doctors on hand at any of their clinics to do exams.So what is that they do?
Doctors have nothing to do with mammos. They are performed by an xray tech trained on the machine.
The objectification of women by pro-lifers is obvious from the repeated posts on this thread by pro-lifers, all of whom refuse to admit that women have any feelings about being pregnant or are allowed to have an opinion about being pregnant or are allowed to not want to be pregnant.
We are human, assholes. We do feel. All the misogyny in the world can't change that. And as long as the Constitution allows us to be legally a whole human, and not 3/5th of a person, we do have a right to decide what we want to do, NOT YOU.
R7 is correct. They also want to see women bogged down with kids and out of college and the workforce. Women who are pro-fetus and anti-choice are dried up crones who are jealous that they aren't getting any. They also figure that they had to raise their unwanted, hellish brats so should every woman should have to do the same.
I think that getting an abortion just so you "control your body" is really immoral.
Don't get one then; problem solved!
(And should you ever change your mind or need to s t r e t c h your beliefs around for the sake of a daughter or niece or friend, well, you'll understand why others are fighting for your freedom to do so.)
R86 I only mentioned being an atheist to point out that philosophical opposition to abortion is not religious per se, since a lot of posts were mentioning Christians as the problem. Furthermore, R85 the government has a right to stop manslaughter.
R90, then what about THE RIGHTS OF THE UNBORN???
I'm joking with that nonsensical phase they love so much, the "rights of the unborn." Legal rights for a fetus. Jesus H. Christ.
R86 The word Christian appears in only one post. One. Post. Seriously, if you have to lie to make your argument, you may as well pack it in.
[quote]Women who are pro-fetus and anti-choice are dried up crones who are jealous that they aren't getting any. They also figure that they had to raise their unwanted, hellish brats so should every woman should have to do the same.
That's the crux of it.
A fetus is untainted by original sin--therefore they care about the fetus but not the actual child.
I always find it interesting how these people who'll go bat shit trying to prevent birth control and abortion. But then once the kid is born all bets are off and the mother and child are on their own.
And I defy them to tell me the definition of when the fetus is a human life and deserves rights. Put it this way - here's my challenge:
If the fetus can survive and thrive outside the womb WITHOUT heroic medical intervention then I'll grant you personhood. But the reality is, it takes a hell of a lot of effort to keep preemies alive.
Wow R95 you got me! Christian only appears in one post. I was talking about the underlaying subtext you dummy.
R99 No. Once more you need to lie in order to save face. Your words exactly were "a lot of posts were mentioning Christians as the problem." meaning people are saying Christians are the problem. So lets see what you got. Please list all the posts you were referring to.
And R99 lets not lose sight of what you have done here. You claimed that since a lot of posts were saying Christians are the problem, that's why you needed to state you are an atheist. But as it turns out, the lots of posts saying Christians are the problem is a lie. Hence, one can reasonably conclude that your claim to being an atheist is also a lie.
See how it works? Once one is caught in a lie, everything else they have to say is called into question.
R100 Yes. yeah let me write them down for you....you're too funny. R101 troll?
If you had infinite words and infinite time, you still could not change one person's view on this subject.
But, by all means, continue....
R102 Why cant you list all these posts that back up your claim? Youre the one being called a liar, and yet you refuse to offer proof to prove me wrong. Gee, I wonder why that is?
I think atheists who oppose abortion are reactionary atheists, you know the ones raised in a fundie household who are atheist because they do not want to espouse the beliefs they were raised with, especially if those beliefs include anti gay propaganda as well. Its like "I'm not judging you because I'm a Christian - oh no! in fact I am judging you because I retain the residue of being raised by judgmental people and am compelled to be so myself."
Anyway there is a lot of that here. Being raised in a fundamentalist religion takes a toll on your psyche beyond the spiritual hoohaa, it can shape your perspectives for the rest of your life. You retain the disapproving attitude and thought processes without believing in the other stuff.
You don't believe in abortion? DON'T HAVE ONE!
the Catholic Church is totally pro-life. They are against the death penalty and war. The latest pope tried to talk Dubya out of invading Iraq. They are at least consistent.
And don't forget that the popess also forbids ANY form of "artificial" birth control, R106. You say 'consistent', I say 'asshole'.
You don't believe in abortion? DON'T HAVE ONE!
um, what about all the women having them? Like close to a million every year if I am not mistaken. What shall we do about them?
R105, a lot of people that think abortion is immoral want it to stop or reduce the occurrence to a very low level. We have government that can pass laws to make it illegal. So why shouldn't the anti-choice movement try to use government to further their aims? I believe gay marriage is good and thus want government to pass laws allowing it for society. I believe murder is wrong/bad/immoral should I not support government anti-homicide laws for society as a whole?
Oh and don't give me crap about government shouldn't legislate morality. It happens all the time and will continue to happen in all areas of life. Everything from gay marriage, interest rates on money, to environmental standards the government has a position that it legislates.
[quote]If the fetus can survive and thrive outside the womb WITHOUT heroic medical intervention then I'll grant you personhood. But the reality is, it takes a hell of a lot of effort to keep preemies alive.
Totally illogical criteria to consider whether someone is a person or not. Absolutely ludicrous.
Actually it's not R109. Many people think that viability outside the womb indicates "life". Even some bible passage refers to the first breath as the soul and life. A fetus is essentially a parasite living off of a host. It cannot breathe or taking in nutrition without the host. I knew a lady that even had some kind of condition where her body was trying to constantly flush out the fetus. She had to be hospitalized because her body did not want this thing in it. Can't remember what it's called. It wasn't just just her trying to miscarry though. Anyone know?
I don't see how that criteria is illogical - we use the same criteria to determine if actual people should remain on life support.
A fetus is essentially a parasite living off of a host.
says you r110!
Viability is the key. Basically if the fetus is dependent on the mother to exist in a biological way - it isn't a discrete organism and is still a developing part of the woman's reproductive system. This is because we are not a parasitic species by definition. The heart beating needs to be backed up with functional lungs. We don't test for consciousness or higher brain function - or even pain reflexes - because babies tend to show sub reasonable signs of these things even as preemies and we would rather give them the benefit of the doubt.
If you do not believe in abortion - do not have one.
R110, if you want to talk about the Bible, and if you are referring to the breath of life, it's talking about when man was first formed by God and God breathed life into the molded man during creation, making him human and alive. Not the first breath of a baby taken outside the womb. The baby is effectively breathing inside the womb in a different fashion anyways.
"what about all the women having them? Like close to a million every year if I am not mistaken. What shall we do about them?"
Perhaps minding our own business, dear?
Actually R113 that's exactly what it is.
Perhaps minding our own business, dear?
I don't think so, pal.
Just think how overpopulated we'd be if not for abortion. There are orphanages and foster homes full of unwanted kids right now.
What I don't understand is why so many of the 'above it all' types of gay men are so openly contemptuous and disdainful of babies and children. You hear the venomous comments all the time.
In terms of reproductive terminology - a miscarriage IS an abortion. The abortion pro-lifers seek to make illegal are a subset of abortions performed medically by doctors. Rick Santorum's wife had an abortion. He tried to redefine the term and drag the family through a bizarre and grotesque parade of pretending the dead fetus was a live birth that later died in order to cleanse himself of the stigma of the term. Disgusting. An incredibly high percentage of abortions are unwanted miscarriages -- surprisingly enough the first trimester of pregnancy is usually kept secret for fear of jinxing things since so many wanted fetuses spontaneously abort. The church and society in general has NEVER considered the early spontaneous loss of a child to be anything other than a few skipped periods. The contempt dumped on women who grieve over the loss of an unborn second trimester fetus is huge. They call it a failed pregnancy. Fuck that. The medical term is abortion. The pro-life people do not seem to have the slightest bit of interest in fighting abortion that can be attributed to God's will.
Oh gee R119 maybe we should kill off some poor people so there will be less crime. The ends don't justify the means.
R121, a miscarriage is a natural occurrence. Sad, but the baby couldn't be sustained. Not a termination like abortion. Pro abortionists don't want the public to see the truth with pictures and videos.
They seem to have forgotten that people still had abortions when it was illegal. Do they honestly think that they would stop completely.
That is one of the reasons I am pro choice, do we really want to go back to those days.
R123 most already do know the truth.
Yes, R124, women have been aborting since at least the ancient Egyptians were around.
Or not R115:
Let's turn to the anti-choice claim that life begins at conception, and that fetuses and embryos are persons—full and separate human beings with rights. For religious anti-choicers, this usually means a belief that fertilized eggs are infused with souls. But the Bible clearly states that life and personhood begins with "breath". With the creation of "man" in Genesis 2:7, God:
"...breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being."
The Hebrew word for human being or living soul is nephesh, which is also the word for "breathing." Nephesh occurs over 700 times in the Bible as the identifying factor in human life. Obviously, fetuses do not breath and therefore cannot be considered as human beings according to the Bible. Here is another verse that reinforces this conclusion. God says:
"Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live." (Ezekiel 37:5)
No-one can know when life really begins, including Bible-believing anti-choicers, as this verse makes clear:
"As you do not know how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.” (Ecclesiastes 11:5)
R122 you realize that as you have already been shown to be a liar, no one is going to believe or care what you have to say?
R126, it's the spiritual breath of God that is supposed to animate people.
Are you telling me that when a baby is born and outside the mother, and just seconds before he or she takes that first breath, that they are not alive? Ludicrous. I could find numerous sites pointing to the contrary if you are discussing the Bible.
Also, are you saying that the baby in the womb is just some type of 'thing' that is moving and alive, but not a person? Ridiculous.
women have been aborting since at least the ancient Egyptians were around.
Does that make it right? Slavery was practiced back then too.
No. You missed the point - abortion is not when you do something to intentionally end a pregnancy. It is the term for when any pregnancy ends in any way other than a live birth. Most abortions are miscarriages - ie God performs most of the millions that the freaks who think there is a baby murdering mania think happen. Medical abortions are not that common - and among the medical abortions - a number of them are not to clear the womb of a viable and living fetus - they include the D&Cs of the fetus that the body does not want to flush out. Medical shit and female problems should be left to doctors and women. The last people making decisions about endometrial flow are Republican men, post menopausal women and celibate priests --
R129 what it mean is that it's an unfortunate fact of life and not going to go away any time soon. Like war and rape.
I'm a pretty miserable person with an unhappy life, but I can tell you right now that I'm extremely happy that I was not aborted by my uniformed parents and a creepy as hell 'doctor'.
And no, I certainly do not view that as being the same as simply not having been conceived, or never having existed. I'M GLAD THAT I WASN'T KILLED IN THE WOMB.
Think about it, people. That was YOU in the womb.
I think DL was found by some crazed frau. I wonder how many unwanted kids she's adopted?
Then why are you so miserable R132?
Miscarriage is not a medical term. It is a euphemism. My very Catholic sister in law FREAKED OUT when she saw the medical description of the D&C she had to have after she miscarried her first pregnancy. (to remove the fibroids that probably caused the spontaneous abortion.) -- a hard core lifer like Santorum will go so far as to avoid medical treatment when a woman spontaneously aborts a fetus because they think that by keeping it out of the hospitals and medical billing system they can avoid admitting that a failed pregnancy is an abortion. That does not change things really.
R134, because I face the daily drag and emotional problems that millions of other people face. I'm a normal person experiencing life. There are ups and downs. Sometimes it's hard to have hope, but the least we can do is protect the most innocent and vulnerable people.
Yes R131. I think anti-choice people know that abortion will always be around to a certain degree just like war and rape. However, there are punishments for people that rape. There are war crime laws against people that commit crimes during war. There should also be laws punishing women who get abortions and the people that help them get them.
The point is making it illegal will not make it stop.
Women put their lives at risk, isn't it better that it's done safely now. Why would anyone want to go back to that.
You should think your mom and the general reduction of abortificants in our culture R132 - rather than be fantasizing that you just barely missed some psycho doctor's bloodthirsty desire to abort you. How fucking weird are you? You should also be thankful that you are not a thalidomide baby and that you do not have polio. While being grateful for not having polio you should consider that a creepy doctor figured out how to keep you from being exposed to the risk of that.
And do not get an abortion if you are against them. Most importantly - do not rape any women - or poison or abuse them in case they are already pregnant. That should cover your relationship with the issue.
[quote]How fucking weird are you?
I'm sure that most people here have similar sentiments. About not being aborted and that it's a different issue from simply not having ever existed in the first place. We aren't the weird ones, here.
R137 are you ever going to list all the posts here you claimed said Christians are the problem? Or is it safe for us to assume you are a liar?
'There should be laws punishing women who get abortions'? Seriously, R137? What about people who attempt suicide and fail? Should they be prosecuted too? How on earth is this 'punishment' going to be enforced? How do you force women to carry a fetus and endure childbirth? Shackle them for the duration of the pregnancy?
R138 Yeah it wont make it stop completely but it will reduce the occurrence dramatically.
Women put their lives at risk, isn't it better that it's done safely now.
No, killing a prisoner by lethal injection is still killing. It doesn't matter if it is more safe. Murder is murder. If a woman wants to put her life at risk to do an immoral act it is on her hands.
R138 as you are a liar, you are the last person who should go around saying that others are immoral.
R143 people who lie have no business telling others what they do is immoral
R145 I haven't lied. You are just autistic. You mad, brah?
Why would you want to punish a woman for getting a legal abortion? Hint: it's not against the law. Lots of people go unpunished for war crimes too.
Like I said a crazed frau is running amok here.
So R147, I take it that every single thing that has been legal at one time or another is right?
That, R149, is precisely the point that prevents any two opposing views of this to agree. Ever. It's no use.
[quote]Does anyone in here wish they'd been aborted? And by which method?
I think of all the eggs my mother produced that went un-fertilised that could have been a child; that were half of a potential child. My mother murdered children by not getting pregnant after I was born and after each time she could have given birth.
When my friend miscarried, a colleague told her it was God's will. Does that mean God murders concious but as yet unborn children?
I don't think it is a Frau. I think it is a freeper. He is on the Ann Romney thread posting racist pictures of Michele Obama now.
Why would you want to punish a woman for getting a legal abortion? Hint: it's not against the law. Lots of people go unpunished for war crimes too.
Um, yeah that's why I think it should be made illegal and into a crime. So then we can carry out the punishment for doing something illegal. As for the second point, a lot of people get away with doing evil every day around the world. So? What are you trying to say? That we shouldn't have laws because some people might get away with it? Is that what you are saying?
What I see that many fail to realize in this debate is that there is NOTHING worse in this world than to feel/realize that you are unwanted and unloved.
If a woman is FORCED by legislation or authoritarian influence in her life (parents, church, etc.) to have a child she does not want and won't be able to love -- though some argue that there a natural instincts that kick in - which is questionable -- then what life is that?
It's as though the seriously rabid anti-abortionists don't THINK about what happens after this entity leaves the womb. It's born. It's on it's own. Mission accomplished. Move on, next case.
With no safety net of support for the mother because they've cut all sorts of funding for programs to help a woman with taking care of said baby, the prospects of getting a decent start in this world are limited.
Imagine if you were truly unwanted and unloved as a child. The palpable sense that you are resented and despised for even existing as a sentient being -- the impact of that on someone's development as a child seriously psychologically destroys them from the inside.
Please spare us the lies R154 that it's benevolent to about and that the child would otherwise be unwanted. Even with that extremely presumptive mindset, it's not nearly as bad a fate as the actual abortion.
Dear Fundies -
Not everyone is a Tebow or Justin Bieber. Their mothers actually wanted them but were afraid.
I agree with 154.
Whoever it is doesn't even know how to use the quote box making his/her posts almost unreadable.
[quote]What I see that many fail to realize in this debate is that there is NOTHING worse in this world than to feel/realize that you are unwanted and unloved.
Nothing says love more than being aborted.
[quote]With no safety net of support for the mother because they've cut all sorts of funding for programs to help a woman with taking care of said baby, the prospects of getting a decent start in this world are limited.
That's an argument that could be used to justify restricting poor couples from breeding. Be careful. You are assuming that women who have abortions are poor and on their own. I am not anti abortion, but your logic is faulty.
R154 Look I agree that a lot of anti-choice people are against social programs once the fetus is born. I think that is a problem and hopefully Obama can increase funding for maternal programs that help mothers raise children especially if they are single. I also think that by having a strong safety net the abortion rate can be lowered. I think the anti-choice community should strive to help single and/or vulnerable mothers. All of this is correct, but abortion (the man induced procedure) is still wrong. PERIOD.
And for these *deeply* religious anti-abortionists -- where is your faith?
You profess to believe in an all-powerful, almighty god who you go on and on about is going to judge every last one of us on a supposed "Day of Judgement". Yet what business of it is yours what someone does in their life? You obviously doubt your creator/god's ability to render appropriate judgement on these people you size-up as sinners.
Well either you believe in your god's ability to render appropriate judgement and deal with this wayward woman or you don't. You can't have it both ways.
AND IF your god has all power and authority and magical powers to resurrect dead people, could this god not somehow give these unborn zygotes the chance for life at some future point in time when there is no longer any satan on earth to tempt them and lead them astray?
If that's the case, would it not be better to have been one of the lucky one's aborted so you didn't have to experience this "hell" of a life on earth in this age with all this temptation? It would be so much better that you were magically resurrected to a new, never-lived life and given the opportunity to experience a world without evil.
Maybe you religious people should stop and THINK about what it is you are trying to say and do with getting all involved in this issue. It's NONE of your BUSINESS -- deal with your own life and sort your own shit out before you get all up in someone else's. But of course, sadly, your the sorts who think your's doesn't stink.
Interjecting yourselves in this world's political affairs and specifically other people's business and claiming you are doing it for religious reasons and that you are exercising your faith is a LIE.
If you had any measure of "faith" (magical thinking) it wouldn't matter what other people did. Your god would handle it and deal those people's actions on this day of judgement you get yourselves so worked up into a frenzy about.
R146 you just can't stop telling lies.. You lied when you said a lot of posters here were saying Christians were the problem, and you lied again when you tried to cover up those lies. You're a liar, like all regressives are liars.
about = abort
DL seriously needs a function to edit posts after hitting [ post a reply ].
But then the Grammar Nazi's would potentially be shut down, their mission . . . aborted.
R161 I don't know who you are talking to but Im an atheist. R162 look at R161. There I just gave you proof. Oh and by the way they didn't say "Christian".
If you never knew, what difference would it make?
R165 one post is what you call a lot? You said a lot of people here are blaming Christians, and your proof is one post made hours after you made your claim? Sorry, you fail. You are still a liar, and not even a good one at that.
Even without deeply religious people, you're going to have people who think it's wrong to legalize abortion.
you are hopeless R167.
It's already legal. Do we really want to turn into a third world shit hole any more than we already have by making it overturning it?
Never knew, R166? If you existed, then you experienced it. There absolutely is a form of consciousness beginning at conception. Many people have commented on it and insisted upon it over the years, much to the ridicule of less sensitive people.
Dead babies are delicious! Eat them whenever you can! Dream of them nightly and daily... They make the greatest gifts!
You rarely see a thread reproduce its own topic.
R168, thank you for saying what needed to be said.
R177 I wonder if he tasted like Chicken. Tai chicken maybe?
(R157) -- I ADMIT IT -- I don't know how the damn "quote box thing" works. But that wasn't me you were bitching about.
"Many people have commented on it and insisted upon it over the years, much to the ridicule of less sensitive people."
I have NEVER heard this. I call bullshit on this statement. This is babble conjured up by the same sorts of people who believe that speaking in tongues is something special, handling poisonous snakes means you have a special blessing or that men wearing dresses with penis shaped fish hats swinging a thing of incense around makes a gathering of people "sanctified" and that the sprinkling of water which someone has said some magic words over or having counted beads to a virgin's vagina somehow has magical powers against senseless shit that happens in this world.
I suppose this is akin to NDEs as well? Research on that particular phenomenon is now attributed to the chemical rush of the pineal gland releasing DMT.
This notion of knowing when consciousness begins is laughable and to have actual memories of it --- ahem. Developmentally speaking, our first memories are linked to our ability to process language and the ability for language recognition is HIGHLY questionable and infinitely laughable at the moment of "sperm meets egg".
That is unless of course you actually believe the little animated balloons were real from movies illustrating the blessed event that you watched in your sex ed class.
Memory recall is not the only proof of consciousness, there is a sensation of consciousness that many people have tried very hard to describe mostly without solid, verifiable memory. It's more vague than that, but it is BEFORE identifiable memories. Memory is not the be all, end all of everything. Or should I say beginning.
It's very easy to understand that we had some sort of conscious sensations we experienced in the present when we were extremely young that most of us have an extremely hard time remembering.
If you hurt a newborn baby will they remember it? Probably not, but that doesn't mean it's any less evil or palpable to them in the moment. They experienced it.
Just out of curiosity atheist pro lifer are you a vegan?
Yes, there are non-religious people who take issue and think it shouldn't be. But the argument to counter that is that making illegal is not going to do away with it happening.
We should NEVER go back to the days when it was illegal.
I don't advocate that it should happen.
I argue that it should legal, safe, and rare.
IF someone opts to or needs to do so, it should be her right to do so. It should be safe for her to have it done, but it should be rare that it does happen.
(R130) is right. This happens naturally. And in some of those cases an D&C is needed to help the woman's body heal so that she might have the ability in the future to be pregnant again.
There is a growing problem (perhaps because of increased environmental toxins and exposure to excessive hormones in our food supply) for women to experience fibroid tumors. Sometimes these symptoms mimic pregnancy -- medical procedures to help women maintain their health and quality of life should not be outlawed because some people have an opinion about something because it conflicts with their religious beliefs.
Keep it legal, keep it safe, and provide the support and the education to make it rare that it happens.
Rape and incest are crimes. No woman should ever be burdened with being forced to carry to term a child that was conceived from a criminal act. And to argue otherwise as has this senatorial candidate from Indiana is to reveal what a fucked in the head superstitious asshole you are to inflict your hocus-pocus, magical thinking, sky fairy beliefs on someone who is a victim of a crime.
If men were the ones who got pregnant and had to carry the child in their bodies, there would be an entirely different take on this issue. The carry-over of our patriarchial social structure wherein women have been considered property of men for the better part of our history is why this argument has evolved the way it has today.
[quote] I argue that it should legal, safe, and rare.
R179, linking the beginning of memory to language recognition is absolute bullshit. A large percentage of people have substantial memories from before they could speak(and could reasonably understand others). Also, nobody ever said that language recognition began at conception! Of course it didn't! What a ridiculous assertion to say that consciousness begins with speaking/speech understanding, that there is no memory before speaking/speech understanding, and therefore, based on these two false premises, that these must apply at conception or else life does not begin at conception(when we never claimed these two false ideas).
Think of how many parts of our lives we can't recall, especially things in the past when we were say 8 years old. Certainly we were conscious. How much harder would it be to remember the very beginning? We have our humanity beginning with conception, and the major reason we rarely have normal memories of it is because are bodies are just beginning to be formed.
The idea that this living thing inside the mother does not have humanity for many months(and is some other type of life form, presumably without consciousness) is insane. It's us, whether we have all of our traditional tools and abilities developed at that point or not.
What animates us inside the womb but our being(consciousness)? It is our life force, soul, whatever you want to call it, not something alien that we push out later on, or a void. We are alive from the beginning. It's us!
I'm probably going to get a lot of bitching for this, but I think it's a plus that at least some insurance covers some abortions in the current system. I know everyone wants it totally comped, but Insurance hardly ever fully covers any procedures these days. I think birth control should be available in abundance, either fully comped or as cheap as possible, and consenting couples who don't want children should take advantage of this and try their best to NOT get pregnant. There, I said it. I'm sure many couples are cautious, but some people consider the lack of free abortions all-around an atrocity (which they are free to do, but some of them are downright vicious about it).
To the lunatics arguing about the great injustice of destroying a parasitic collection of cells, unless you have patronized a pregnant woman and adopted her unwanted child, you are a hypocrite.
Using your flimsy sense of morality to try to govern the rules of society is not cute. Your poorly informed, pseudoscientific, new age sense of morality is not only naive, it is oppressive and harmful to women. I don't know whether you consider yourself to be a misogynist, but you are. There is no way to have an egalitarian society without allowing all women access to the tools they need to control their reproductive health. The fact that you would force women to go through the painful ordeal of pregnancy and shackle her to a table to deliver a baby she never wanted all for the sake of your delicate sense of right and wrong is appalling.
R186 says you
[quote]To the lunatics arguing about the great injustice of destroying a parasitic collection of cells, unless you have patronized a pregnant woman and adopted her unwanted child, you are a hypocrite.
So it's not murder simply based upon the woman not wanting it? What great logic!
You let your emotions and arbitrary sense of morality interfere with the basic truth that abortion rights are NECESSARY to maintain equality between the sexes. You would doom all women to lives as incubators just because of your misguided, new age belief that an undifferentiated mass of cells is capable of meaningful consciousness.
One hopes you also avoid killing insects and live a completely vegan lifestyle. Animals with a far greater capacity for thought than even a fully developed newborn are routinely killed by human beings.
Conception is a random act of science. Anyone who confers it to God or any celestial reasoning is bizarre. If America thinks government bureaucrats should be doing our family planning by fiat is criminal.
I know several pro life Lesbians!!
R189 has got to be a parody post. I hope so, at least.
I don't think so. sounds like a crazy dyke to me
Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more D&Es?
Yummy for the tummy in China we have with noodles
Conservatives obsess over unborn fetuses
Liberals don't give a shit about human fetuses, they instead obsess over unwanted dogs and cats.