A new book by Seth Rosenfeld, Subversives, shows just what a terrible tool Reagan really was -- an informant, a liar, and such a terrible family man that he unleashed the FBI on his daughter when she was having an affair with an older man in Washington DC.
A truly horrible man.
And conservatives will just add it to his hero mythology. Why didn't he fight in WWII?
I'm surprised Nancy never "Blew" his cover.
The fact that conservatives revere this man is a travesty.
Cnservatives do mind more government or big government if it spies on people. They just don't want it spying on corporate crimes.
I could never see what was so wonderful about his presidency. Yes, he brought us out of the dreariness of the Carter administration, but he spawned overindulgence and hypermaterialism, which we still see today. That was his real legacy.
He was an ass. Unkind, ungenerous, and mean.
I saw through him and could never figure out why so many couldn't.
Ketchup = vegetable for public school children.
AIDS = no such thing.
Mentally Ill = close hospitals and let them live on the streets.
I remember the ketchup debacle. What was it, Ketchup, Cheese and powdered milk?
Reagan was not a perfect president, though he got the US out of the Carter malaise, but I really disagree with the idea he was a horrible human being. There are ample accounts of his likeable and friendly personality, even his political opponents said he was always ready to listen and his sectre service protection said he was one of the best presidents or candidates they worked with.
He always responded to correspondence however important the writer and just days after he was shot he was found clearing up spilt water in his hospital bedroom so as not to trouble the nurse.
As for his FBI informant record, yes that was not his finest moment, but he did it, misguidedly, as he believed it was necessary for national security as for keeping tags on his daughter's affair, again not great but if you were the president wouldn't you want to know who was having an affair with the first daughter and why?
r8, none of my points above are not true.
ergo, he was not a nice man.
R6 - Disagree, of course everyone has their good points and their bad points but on a personal level most reports are clear that Reagan treated those he met and dealt with with in a good way.
What a terrible man Reagan really was.
Is this news?
He became much more likable when the Alzheimer took over. He was a ruthless before.
[quote]Why didn't he fight in WWII?
He joined the Army Reserve in college & was called up when WWII broke out, but was rejected for service overseas due to being too nearsighted. Instead, he stayed in Los Angeles & appeared in patriotic films.
I met a nurse who said that one of her elderly patients had worked with Reagan years ago on a charity project & found that he "had a mean streak" in private. I was surprised to hear that because, as much as I despise him, he'd always struck me as just a dumb goofball who meant no harm (though he caused plenty of it).
R8 you ignorant slut. The point re the FBI and his daughter is: he heard that Maureen was sleeping with a DC cop and so instead of talking to her, he had Hoover trail her, hassle her, attack the cop, and try to destroy two lives.
Yes, a truly terrible man. His apologists are no different from the various Birthers and Freepers if this world. People who hate the truth.
"Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do." -- Ronald Reagan, 1981
After years in show business Reagan had many gay friends and wasn't concerned about his son's orientation. No need to followed by the FBI.
reagan was mean
11 - Who did not become president without being ruthless?
13 - If a cop was having an affair with the president's daughter that would clearly be a gross abuse of their position
16 - No, he even forgave John Hinckley after he tried to kill him and tried to meet him
nothing you say will change my mind about reagan.
Read his letters and you will see he was not a nice man.
Reagan's letters prove nothing of the sort, including numerous letters to private citizens he took time and effort to write and a letter to his son on the meaning of true love
Why are you so invested in defending his reputation?
[quote]Reagan had many gay friends and wasn't concerned about his son's orientation.
His son was and still is married to a woman. so....duh.
Could you imagine what would happen today if Obama laid a wreath on a Nazi grave? Or if he sold weapons to one group of terrorists and then used the profits to fund another group of terrorists?
Here's what I want to know...
Why did Ron Reagan Jr. turn out the way he did?
And by that I mean... sane and likable. It seemed like MSNBC was flirting with giving him a show after the 2004 Democratic convention and he was a regular analyst but I guess he doesn't want to leave Seattle so he just fills in as a guest occasionally.
[quote]He joined the Army Reserve in college & was called up when WWII broke out, but was rejected for service overseas due to being too nearsighted. Instead, he stayed in Los Angeles & appeared in patriotic films.
Bullshit! He even lied and said he fought in WWII. Nearsightedness?! Bwahahaha!!!!
R8, Iran-Contra. Take it away.
[italic]AIDS = no such thing.
Mentally Ill = close hospitals and let them live on the streets.[/italic]
Finally a book about what he was really like.
R24, there is no such person as Ron Reagan Jr. President Ronald Wilson Reagan did have a son whose name is Ronald Prescott Reagan.
I have a better idea, r27. Why don't YOU link to the information that shows REagan DIDN'T close the mental hospitals and how he responded to the AIDS crisis, other than saying the word "AIDS" when Rock Hudson died.
OK smartypants r29. You knew what I meant.
He was a fucking ACTOR.
What did y'all expect?
You know, Mario Cuomo said it all about Reagan His words, and I'm paraphrasing here, He said, "Reagan is such an affable fellow, he makes a lack of compassion seem charming."
So, yeah, I agree. He was a bad person.Someone else said that whoever you are when you come to Washington, that's who you'll be. You can't hope that circumstances or events will make someone a better person or confer a level of morality or integrity to them if it isn't there.In other words, either you have it or you don't.
R8, Reagan was the butcher of Central America and is responsible for the slaughter of over 100,000 people in Nicaragua and El Salvador.
And you want to beatify this war criminal? You are one dumb and ignorant fuck.
This thread has got me watching the Reagan American Experience bio on Netflix streaming.
Apparently Patti was born only 7 months after Nancy and Ron married... oooooh.
My grandchildren will gather round and play a little game
I’ll ask “whatever happened to?” and then I’ll name a name
I’ll name some bad men, I’ll name the worst
They’ll make their grandpa proud with their answers well-rehearsed
Yours will be the last name, I’ll say it with a grin
I’ll say he used to be the President, where’s he been since then?
They’ll answer Ronald Reagan burns in hell with Judas, Adolf and Jim
Reagan got us out of nothing, this is such a fallacy. It was all Paul Volcker's doing; he was appointed by Carter, for better or worse, PV initiated the recession and created money by manipulation which occurred in Reagan's first term. It falsely made Reagan appear the messiah, which was quite the opposite. As somebody posted up thread, Reagan ushered in the Corporate greed nightmare we are suffering today.
I think that Reagan reappointed Volcker too. Correct me if I am wrong.
R40, his hair looked like it was colored with brown shoe polish.
"Ronald Reagan doesn't dye his hair. He's just prematurely orange."
-- Gerald Ford
Yes, Gerald Ford (probably quoting Stephen)
Nasty, nasty man and I should know, for I am a nasty woman.
34 - On Reagan's watch the tide in the Cold War was turned and the economy began to grow again after the Carter years. Of course he was not perfect, but even in Central America the Saninistas weren't that great either! You may have your opinion, but for me he and IKE were the best GOP presidents since the War
Well you're full of shit HYUFD. The economy grew in the Carter years, it was the first years of Reagan where it shrank (because of a Republican shithead named Paul Volcker that Carter installed at the Fed). Reagan's "boom" was classic Keynesian stimulation: deficit spending and money supply growth, but with this difference: Reagan, with the complicity of wealthy Dems like Kennedy and O'Neill, started restructuring the economy to hurt the poor, the young, and labor.
The tide in the Cold War was not "turned." The fact is that we were never losing the Cold War, that was just lying propaganda from Cheney and Rumsfeld.
Military employment was higher under Carter than under Reagan. People forget that.
Reagan produced the largest economic boom in post-war US history and nearly 35 million more jobs. It was Reagan who kept the pressure up on the Soviets by maintaining a military presence in Europe while also being willing to sit down and speak to Gorbachev and set the way for the end of the Cold War
[quote]Reagan produced the largest economic boom in post-war US history and nearly 35 million more jobs
Completely made up "facts", aka BULLSHIT.
Unemployment was 7.5% when Reagan got in, 5.4% when he left office!
Keep making up those "facts", asshole.
R45 is just another of these idiot right wing freepers who've invaded datalounge with their rightwing revisionist history.
I met a freeper who wasn't there. He wasn't there again today. I wish, I wish he'd go away.
Firstly if you look at the facts on unemployment levels at the end of Reagan's term compared to its beginning you will see that I am right. Secondly, I am certainly no freeper, indeed most Americans when polled consider Reagan one of the best US presidents of the last century, after all he won 2 landslide victories and he could not do that with the support of the hard right alone. My own political views are actually moderate/center right andI want Obama to be re-elected in November albeit with a split Congress, a GOP House and Democratic Senate.
A lot of people voted for him because he had been a handsome actor.
For someone in a union SAG he seemed to hate unions and worked against them. And don't forget the wonderful union busting job he did on the air traffic controllers.
Jimmy Carter may not have been a great President, however he did become a great diplomat, after his Presidency. Please don't discount his humanitarian efforts on behalf of our country and others.
[quote]11 - Who did not become president without being ruthless?
R55 you are an absolute shit. Face it, accept it, and live with it.
57 - True, he was still a bad president.
58 - Carter was ruthless, how else did he come from nowhere to win in 1976.
59 - You are rude, arrogant and unable to debate with facts only insults, I cannot be bothered to waste any more time arguing with you on this issue!
and yet you keep trying!
[quote]58 - Carter was ruthless, how else did he come from nowhere to win in 1976.
If that's you're idea of debate - you got nothin. Can't you even dredge up some ridiculous conspiracy theory with which to amuse us?
According to his book detailing interviews with former Secret Service agents, Jimmy Carter was the worst president they had to deal with, worse than any other President, Democrat or Republican, in the 50 year period the book covers. An excerpt
Carter is portrayed as a phony according to the agents interviewed by Kessler. Carter would put on a show for the public to convey himself as a common man, but it was never anymore than an act. For instance, we are told that when Carter would make a point of carrying his own luggage in front of the press, he was really carrying empty bags. He expected others to carry his real luggage. Unfriendly, Carter “didn’t want the police officers and agents looking at him or speaking to him when he went to the [Oval] office,” explained an assistant White House usher. “The only time I saw a smile on Carter’s face was when the cameras were going,” one former agent told Kessler.
After his presidency, Kessler reports that when Carter would stay at a townhouse maintained for former presidents in D.C., he would take down pictures of other presidents and put up more pictures of himself! “The Carters were the biggest liars in the world,” one agent told Kessler of the Carter era.
In the President's Secret Service: Behind the Scenes with Agents in the Line of Fire and the Presidents they Protect by Ronald Kessler
[quote]Firstly if you look at the facts on unemployment levels
What facts? The shit you keep making up? Since you have provided no links we have no facts. New to the internets grampa?
Ron Kessler is chief Washington, D.C. correspondent of the incredibly biased conservative website Newsmax.com.
Nice try, HYUFD.
If you bothered to read the interviews you would also see the agents had good things to say about Obama and Clinton and were less than complimentary about McCain so it was not a partisan book at all!
As for links I have tried posting them here but it does not seem to accept them so I gave up. If you want to check unemployment levels by the end of Reagan's term a simple google search will confirm, even on Reagan's wikipedia site
Secret service agents are security guards - and we got to see what their "ethics" are in Colombia this year.
A single agent's perspective, despite interviews with other colleagues, is scant evidence to condemn a president. Who knows what policies or other personnel issues were going on during the secret service at that time that would color their perspective.
Fucking ridiculous. But I will agree that Carter wasn't very effective.
[quote]As for links I have tried posting them here but it does not seem to accept them so I gave up.
Ask the orderly at the home to help you grampa. Nobody else has that problem here.
Reagan's communications director Pat Buchanan argued that AIDS is "nature's revenge on gay men." Writing in the Washington Post in late 1985, Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Los Angeles, stated: "It is surprising that the president could remain silent as 6,000 Americans died, that he could fail to acknowledge the epidemic's existence. Perhaps his staff felt he had to, since many of his New Right supporters have raised money by campaigning against homosexuals."
Yes, just how old IS our resident Reagan defender anyway?
The interviews were based on a large number of agents who accompanied presidents and candidates 24 hours a day, as an idea of what they were personally like they should not be dismissed. As for links, it may be my computer I don't know but they don't want to post. I am no Pat Buchanan fan what has that got to do with my view on Reagan? I never said Reagan was a saint, he was not perfect and AIDs was one of his weaker areas, but he did have many gay friends in the entertainment industry. George W Bush ironically was not a great president but actually did a lot to tackle AIDs, particularly in Africa. I am 30.
He was a hateful, ignorant ass who spent most of his second term with a rapidly declining brain. Considering the existence of Log Cabins and other self-loathing gays in the GOP, it is not surprising he had some gay friends, but that does not mean he was a nice human being.
Reagan and his wife alternately neglected and mistreated their children, particularly the ones who were not young Ron. Their children alternately begged for their love or retaliated with angry, immature stunts. All their kids had showbiz or political ambitions that did not pan out. Ron did the best because they were semi-decent to him.
With all the scrutiny of family that takes place today the Reagans might have had real trouble getting into office.
I think it is quite clear we are never going to agree on this, we have both made our points, I suggest we leave it there
[quote]Unemployment was 7.5% when Reagan got in, 5.4% when he left office!
It was a boom period following a recession period. It just happened to coincide with Reagan's presidency.
You suggest we leave it there!
Ha ha ha ha ha ha h ah ahah hahahaha!!!
When you're losing an argument and creating fiction, it's a good idea to say, "I suggest we leave it there" and then run away and hide until you can create new fiction.
Yes, well as you have not replied with any factual points against my points on the unemployment rate under Reagan or the growth rate of the economy over Reagan's term it is quite clear you have no facts to counter them so clearly if you have a rather pathetic need to have a 'victor' in this argument it was me. As, I said Reagan was not perfect, but on balance his presidency was a good one for its time and the economic needs of the time and the challenges of the Cold War!
Your main point is that he was a NICE man.
My main point is that he was not.
Your "facts" do not support your point.
And what does HYUFD stand for?
If you look at my earlier points, the fact he always replied to correspondence whoever the writer, cleaning the bathroom for his nurse after the assassination attempt on him and his forgiveness for the guy who shot him I don't think he was really a nasty man, but if you wish to differ that is your affair. It stands for nothing in particular
Reagan can't be blamed for anything that happened in his last four years in office. He was so out of the loop that he didn't know what was going on.
I'm curious if the young gays know how awful Reagan was. I suspect they don't. All that right wing propaganda is probably working.
oh for sure, r86.
Even Obama (who I like a lot) sings his praises.
But he really was a pretty nasty man based solely on his policies.
Younger voters are perfectly able to read up on his policies as well as everyone else. For example, I myself would not have voted for Reagan in 1968 when he first ran for president, my favoured candidates would have been Nelson Rockefeller and Bobby Kennedy, or in 1976 when I would have voted for Gerald Ford over both Reagan and Carter. But by 1980, in my view, Reagan was the right candidate for the time to get America out of its economic malaise, you disagree, as I said that is your affair.
I have already said on this thread many times Reagan was not a good president as far as HIV was concerned, but you have to look at his record overall, and on that basis in my view, and based on the needs of the time, his overall record on the economy etc was a good one. It is clear you disagree, that is your affair. As I have also said even Elton John has stated that George W Bush was the best president of recent times as far as the fight against HIV was concerned, that does not mean his overall record was a good one!
It's amusing to me that people think conservatives are the only people to misuse agencies like the FBI. It clearly shows how much you refuse to acknowledge both parties lack of intelligence when it comes to intelligence.
By the way the Obama administration supported the unchanged/unmodified renewal of both the FISA Act (domestic wiretapping) and PATRIOT Act. You know, the two things Bush implemented that horrified and angered Democrats. Double-standard much?
Thanks for mentioning this book, OP. It sounds really good. Bookforum gave it a great review, too.