Madonna Gets Outed As A No-Talent Yet Again

Demo for "Nothing Fails" from her 2003 "American Life" album has been released. The song, "Silly Thing" was originally written by Guy Sigsworth and Jem. It's basically the same exact song. Madonna changed a few words, and got the first writing credit on the track. This is what she always does. This is what Stephen Bray blasted her for.

http%3A//soundcloud.com/guysigsworth/silly-thing-demo



• If you think Madonna is the only one who does this, you know nothing about the music business. Many, if not most, artists who have any clout in the industry change a lyric or two to get a songwriting credit. It's not just Madonna, not by a mile. Songwriting is where the real money is in the music business.

• How unethical she be.

  Beyonce

• Guy Sigsworth - "When I finally heard the finished song it was the strangest experience. It's not every day you hear Madonna singing words and melodies you sang into your dictaphone at two in the morning! I really admire her for being so involved in everything she does. The song sounds beautiful."

• Madonna's never written a song in her entire life.

• Worthless whore.

• Madonna = The only person around here with more threads that Mitt Romney!

• "If you think Madonna is the only one who does this, you know nothing about the music business." No one said that Madonna was the ONLY person to do this. "Songwriting" fraud is very common in the music industry. Seriously, are there any popstars who ACTUALLY write their own songs without plagiarizing or getting help from song doctors?

• So? I question people like Stephen Bray. While he undoubtedly contributed to Madonna's success, if he wrote all her hits, why was he unable to duplicate that success after she dumped his ass? She continued to be successful, which tells me that maybe she had a little to do with her own success in songwriting.

• First, this song was not a hit--no one should be claiming ownership of it. Second, Madonna's version is vastly superior. Third, she certainly changed enough of the song to earn a songwriting credit. And she got the first credit because the songwriters are listed alphabetically. "Ciccone" is early in the alphabet. It's not a measure of contribution. Now shut up.

• ^^ Same with Jellybean.

• Madonna stays wealthy off the work of her underlings, whom she treats like garbage; she goes through her men like Kleenex; she refuses to act her age; and she says nasty cutting things about her rivals. She basically IS Alexis Carrington Colby. No wonder so many gay men here still worship her so much.

• Again. So?

• You would be surprised at how different some songs actually sound before some singers take it and own it. Britney isnt great at injecting personality in her recordings. Trust me, she barely even ad libs independent of the demo. Beyonce is actually great at it & I think Neyo actually acknowledged that in the middle of his tantrum (as did several Clutch writers). I've listened to the Halo demo for instance, her vocals sound very little like the demo. The lyrics are the same but shes clearly switched up the melody & pacing. Theres no reason why she shouldnt be credited for significantly changing the song. As for Madonna, I've never met anyone who worked with her who had a single positive thing to say. And I have no idea if she changed the song in anyway.

• I agree with the "so?" Stephen Bray worked with Madonna for 10 years. If he was treated so badly, why didn't he quit and watch her suffer failure after failure without him? She dismissed him. I would have, after he tried to recreate her sound with the singer Regina. By that point Madonna was no longer using that sound but what a betrayal by Bray.

• I believe Britney writes all her songs by herself

  Jayden

• BRITNEY is the one of the ONLY pop stars who refuses to claim songwriting credit for songs she hasn't written. However, she gets blasted by the press for not being a "songwriter." She thinks of herself strictly as an entertainer. She did, however, write a very pretty ballad "Everytime" with a friend which was very nice.

• It's known as "change a word, take a third", OP.

• Who is this poster who has such venom for Madonna? Thread after thread bashing Madonna any chance he/she gets. I don't care about Madonna one way or the other, but whoever this poster is, get a fucking life!

• R16, pretty much the only good thing about Britney is that she doesn't pretend to be a writer. Whitney Houston was another one that didn't pretend to write her own songs

• Steven Bray made a pile of money off of his work with Madonna and has never really had to work in nearly 30 years, so I can't feel sorry for someone in that situation. I would love to be "betrayed" that way!

• R19: Whitney did deserve writing credits whether she claimed them or not. Babyface tells stories of how she would sweep in, decide she didnt like the tempo or the backgrounds or the melody and change it. He says that for Exhale (Shoop Shoop) she did it in 2 takes and refused to do it his way. She added to the creativity and her version was clearly a hit. She deserved a small writing credit there.

• So true [r7] Changing one or two words should not give you a song writing credit. It does, but it should not. It doesn't make you a songwriter either [r9], its a business arrangement. Stock, Aitken and Waterman made the same argument about some of their artists - ahem Kylie... [r8] Stephen Bray was nominated for a Tony in 2005 for his work as a song writer and composer for the broadway version of The Colour Purple. Some people don't value or court continuous Top 40 success. Stephen produced some of Madonna's best work. With the exception of ROL, the later half of her 'musical' career has been very patchy to say the least. Anyhow, isn't she a shoe designer now? Or something?

• Next?

• r20 Betrayal BY Bray, not OF Bray. Reading comprehension, son

• r21-- If that's the case then Madonna has earned her credits. Even those who hater her say her says she is intricately involved in just such song changes.

• [quote] Madonna's never written a song in her entire life. You mean someone else is responsible for these lyrics?? I don't like cities But I like new york Other places make me feel like a dork

• Stephen Bray was nominated and lost. Since dumping him Madonna's won 9 grammys.

• [quote]Madonna changed a few words, and got the first writing credit on the track. This is what she always does. Elvis Presley did this. Was he the first? Several composers wouldn't allow him to take writing credit so he didn't record their songs. Ed Sullivan called him on this, live on "The Ed Sullivan Show."

• "Since dumping him Madonna's won 9 grammys." The Grammys give awards to "artists" like The Backstreet Boys and Britney Spears

• The Grammys forever tainted its legacy by giving overexposed Beyonce 17 fucking Grammys. There's no way in hell that mediocre bitch deserves about as many Grammys as Aretha Franklin.

• I like to singy singy singy Like a bird on a wingy wingy wingy

  Madge%2C%20lyricist%20par%20excellence

• Fortunately, it takes no effort to ignore shitty pop music. I have only heard one Beyonce song, the one that was a big hit a few years ago. I don't know Lady Gaga music at all. Or what has Madonna been doing for the past 15 years.

• link doesn't work=made up bullshit

• Madonna always does this. Throughout her career, she has either PAID people off to get writing credits or simply stole them. Beyonce got her songwriting dishonesty blueprint from Vadge. This is common knowledge of course to everyone except in the in denial Vadge stans. Madonna should get flak for this-she's a horrible singer, mediocre dancer and she doesn't write her songs.

• it's on youtube

  http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DtN5TmwWyqeo

• I was told that a producer like William Orbit, for example, "buys" 40 songs/lyrics and then "shops" them with artists like Madonna, Chris Brown, etc. They then put their words/lyrics and get some writing credit. The musician who told me this has had a couple of hits and basically said this is done WITH EVERY SUPERSTAR

• [quote]So? I question people like Stephen Bray. While he undoubtedly contributed to Madonna's success, if he wrote all her hits, why was he unable to duplicate that success after she dumped his ass? She continued to be successful, which tells me that maybe she had a little to do with her own success in songwriting. Oh, god, you're a moron. He had a style that became dated. She moved on to an updated sound, and kept taking her clothes off.

• Songwriters always get questions like: Do you want to own 100% of a song that makes no money at all or 50 or 25% of a song that makes you a shit load of money, because a big star is singing it (and the star won't touch it unless he/she gets a writers credit).

• The greats like Janet, Mariah, and Whitney would have never stooped so low.

• "Frozen" is now banned from being played or sold is some country because it was found to be plagiarized. She got sued for not giving credit on "Erotica", "Secret", and "Justify My Love". Curtiss Maldoon who wrote "Sepheryn", which became "Ray of Light" went batshit when he found out that Madonna took a writing credit for his song. He blasted her for changing nothing, but still taking credit. Nellee Hooper turned down working with her again when he found out she wanted to take credit for tracks she had nothing to do with. The demos to her last three albums are out there, and the tracks were done by other people. She changed nothing but a word, and will receive royalties due to taking credit. She can't sing, she can't act, she can't write. She's the biggest con artist of the 20th and 21st centuries. Here's the biggest irony regarding Lady Gaga's "Born That Way" and Madonna's "Express Yourself"... Madonna didn't write "Express Yourself" but took credit, which led to a scandal and fallout with Bra. "Express Yourself" lifts its chorus from the Staple Singers' "Respect Yourself". Madonna goes on and on about Lady Gaga stealing the chorus to "Express Yourself" when she did exactly the same thing. Both Madonna and Lady Gaga are stealing. I don't even think Madonna remembers how she got her songs in the first place. She has a lot of nerve. BTW, Madonna is now getting sued for "Vogue". The lawsuit went out two weeks ago. Computers now pick up sounds stolen from other songs. Of course, Madonna's songs would get caught for stealing in two seconds flat. A song Madonna wrote on her own: "I Love New York". She's such a great writer!

• Mariah does write her shit. Janet is a joke. Her ex-husband was behind her songs (and Jam and Lewis). The thank yous in "The Velvet Rope" outed her. She wrote to him saying that it was great that he finally took credit for the work they did together. He got writing credits on each of the songs on that album.

• Shania Twain - I notice she hasn't "written" any hit songs since she divorced her Svengali Janet Jackson - Was flopping until she met Jam/Lewis. They are the ones who are really responsible for her songs. Beyonce - didn't she lie in concert and say she wrote Irreplaceable? Let's "out" some more fake songwriters!

• She was a genius in her day, but she forgets that she is pop. Like trying to serve beef at a fish supper.

• I've heard that Rene Elizondo ghost wrote many of Janet's hits, R39. I don't know if it's true, but it's been a pretty persistent rumor since their divorce.

  Anonymous

• Madonna also filed a cease and desist against the group SEDUCTION, claiming that lead singer Michelle Visage was deliberately copying her EXPRESS YOURSELF look. The group was having major chart success at the time, and Madonna's order help hinder the group, as they had to drastically change their look. Michelle claimed her look had nothing to do with Madonna's, but apparently she was the only one who was allowed to have short blond permed hair. (Visage was also Vogueing in her videos before Madonna, BTW) Visage also claims Madonna's manager phoned the group to personally tell them that if Visage was going to copy Madonna, then she should at least do a halfway decent job. Rupaul, who is one of Michelle's best friends, has never had anything nice to say about Madonna.

• Wasn't "Into the Groove" completely original? Any backstory? It's her best song imo.

• R46, listen to Candy Man by Mary jane Girls

• Sorry, it wasn't an actual cease and desist, but it was a warning.

  R45

• That's why I just don't understand why Madonna has fans. I'm sure most of them don't know how terrible she has been to other people working the industry. You would think a talentless hack like her would be appreciative of the "help" others have given her and would be the sweetest person in the world but NO. SHe's just the biggest fucking cunt ever and somehow gets rewarded for it.

• Fans love cunts and divas to worship from afar. Look at us gays and our appreciation for Eddie and Pats from AbFab. Real or fake, people love their Hitlers, Stalins, and Simon Cowells of the entertainment industry.

• R29, Britney only won ONE Grammy and that was for Best Dance Recording for Toxic. That's like saying, thanks for the dance mix babe, meaning it's not a serious Grammy award. Let's not put her in the same mix as that narcissistic, lying heiffer Beyonce's undeserved Grammys. Have to agree, Brit's one of the few who never bullshits about writing credits. I love how Beyonce claimed the Frank Ocean song AND sang Halo AFTER Kelly Clarkson recorded the same song with Ryan Tedder. Idiot things people don't know her game. These poptarts lie to get the cash that comes with having a song writing credit even if they only added a 'the' and a 'hey'. Madge has played the game the longest although she's added more to her 'cowrites' than the lying younguns.

• "BTW, Madonna is now getting sued for "Vogue". The lawsuit went out two weeks ago. Computers now pick up sounds stolen from other songs. Of course, Madonna's songs would get caught for stealing in two seconds flat." That lawsuit is laughable and the two songs sound nothing alike. Even their argument sounds desperate: "The unauthorized sampling was deliberately hidden by [Madonna] within 'Vogue' so as to avoid detection. It was only when VMG specifically looked for the sample, with the technology available to it in 2011, that the sampling could be confirmed." A hidden sample? OK then.

• It's not laughable. Whatever sound was taken was created by an artist in the studio, spending their time and working things out until that artist got what they wanted. It can be a drumbeat, it can be a finger-snap, it can be a non-sensical vocal sound. The fact is, the artist who originated the sound played with the mics, the levels, paid for the recording studio time, and on and on and on. They did not do any of that so that Madonna could use their recording however she saw fit. If she or her producers were in any way decent, they would have compenstated the artist in question when they deiced that, rather than bring someone in to create whatever sound they were looking for, they would instead loop a sample from someone else's recording. Capiche?

• I still like a lot of Madonna's pre Hard Candy era music but Madonna does not deserve a lead writing credit for Nothing Fails. I just listened to that demo on you tube and the lyrics are hardly changed at all.

• Into the Groove sounds nothing like Candy Man. They used the sane drum machine and the same snare.

• [quote]Janet is a joke. Her ex-husband was behind her songs (and Jam and Lewis). The thank yous in "The Velvet Rope" outed her. She wrote to him saying that it was great that he finally took credit for the work they did together. He got writing credits on each of the songs on that album. Bull and SHIT. Janet Jackson writes from her experiences. Those first two albums were basically Joe Jackson saying "I want you to be a singer...here are some producers...work with them." 'Control' was when she finally had a say in what she wanted her music to be about. "Nasty" came about due to a run-in she'd had with some dudes in Minneapolis. The "RN 1814" project was born out of what she'd been seeing on CNN and in various news stories around the country. 'The Velvet Rope' songs were born from her bout with depression. Elizondo the scag co-wrote some of those songs, but that's ALL he did--co-write. She wrote her #1 hit "Black Cat" alone, and co-produced it with Jellybean Johnson. She wrote the lyrics to her biggest #1 hit, "That's The Way Love Goes", while Jam/Lewis supplied the beats. Many of her songs are written by her but produced by Jam/Lewis, but most of the time they write together.

• [quote]You would think a talentless hack like her would be appreciative of the "help" others have given her and would be the sweetest person in the world but NO. What I know is that you have to have at least a little talent to recognize what having a lot of talent is like. Then you strive to improve yourself. If you have no talent, you don't know what being talented is like, so you assume you must be talented... very talented. That's Madonna. Madonna's failed film career is a proof of her lack of intelligence and self-awareness.

• That's a pretty good assessment, I think.

• I hate to see this thread devolve into a flame war, but you cannot say that Madonna is not talented. She might not be talented at what she claims to be, but she is talented at something. With 6 billion people in the world about 1/1000 of them will be remembered well after their lifetimes. There is some talent in that alone. And did anyone read R3? The songwriter is pleased with the song and compliments Madonna on her close involvement with creating her version.

• I think Madonna is a good collage artist (taking bits that other people created and using them for her own purposes - I guess that's some kind of a talent), but she has no talent to produce anything original. Also, all successful people are lucky. And... most, but not all, successful people are incredibly good at shamelessly using others.

  57

• Again. So? It's not like she's touting her song writing abilities. And clearly she has input as so many themes recur. Who cares?

• R61 because many of us are sick of the ridiculous worship this cunt gets from her stans and the press alike. It seems no matter how many times she's exposed as a fraud, her idiot fans still love her and the press will revere her whenever she dies. She's a big star sure but she is not original or talented at all.

• How many stans does she have, R62?

• Madonna is a triple threat: Likes to sing (and can't) LIkes to act (and can't) Likes to write (and can't)

• Was Donna Summer the only female pop singer who wrote most of her own material and didn't steal? I know she collaborated on a number of songs, but she wrote a LOT of her material herself. I like Madonna's music, but I love Donna Summer's music.

• Trolldar the OP. Such a sour old cunt on all her posts here at DL. Hon, loosen and replace your tampon. It wasn't meant to last a whole week.

• R63 obviously way too many. How the fuck a shitty track like "Gimme All Your Lovin'" made the top 10 on the hot 100 is beyond me. It was one of Vadge's worst singles ever. She's even more revered in the rest of the world; especially in europe and latin america.

• Starting a thread like this is pointless. You're never going to change the mind of the fans the rest is just preaching to the choir... "Let the choir sing..." Note that even regarded songwriters get sued. Ever heard My Sweet Lord and He's So Fine? Well George Harrison, songwriter, did.

• Correct me if I'm wrong but Guy Sigsworth and Jem received credit on their song, so it's not like she hijacked it. Plus, they were paid. Plus, Guy, at least, seems happy to have Madonna singing his song. So, what the fuck is up the OPs ass?

• OP's original link was shut down...I expect the Youtube video to disappear soon as well...Madonna is covering her tracks.

• Well, at least Jem's still writing.

  Kimber "Welcome to Wal-mart" Benton

• R70 you ain't kidding. There used to a blog site (it's still up) called "Madonna Revelations" and exposed all the shit this bitch has pulled in the last 30 years. Mysteriously and for no reason, the blog is no longer updated and their youtube account isn't active either. I don't know if she threatened them with legal action or what but they had some got stuff on the bitch. She is by far the biggest con artist and fraud in hollywood.

• What you rubes don't understand is that Madonna's fans don't care what you dig up about who she stole from. I would fancy that is part of the reason they love her - her story of clawing her way to the top. Yeah, she may have copied, but she made it better, more popular, more accessible and made a shit load of money off of it. American's celebrate not the idea, but how much money was made from it. Facebook, anyone? Saying a recording artist can't sing in 2012 is probably one of the most irrelevant statements you can make.

• r37 OR...he wasn't the talent he claimed to be. Patrick Leonard, another Madonna collaborator of the time, seems to pop up in the latter era of her career. No matter who Madonna collaborates with, there is a general consistency that appears on her recordings. Which, as I was saying, means that she has a great deal of input and isn't at the mercy of her writers and producers. They work for her, not vice versa.

• The Backstreet Boys don't have a grammy, liar.

• Oh, so now even pointing out a "singer" who can't sing is passe. That's why I can't wait until the technology can create pop stars that are entirely computer generated. That'll put the auto-tuned, marginal talents out of business, and then legitimate singers will be celebrated again for the "novelty" of actually being able to sing well live. They already have a hologram pop star in Japan, but I think there's still an actual person who does the singing. Eventually computers will be able to sing for themselves, and then the auto-tuned hacks will become unnecessary.

• r76. Maybe so. Still won't erase Madonna's most impressive legacy.

• A friend of mine worked with her a few years ago. He's fairly famous (and gay, and fabulous, and stylish, and smart as hell and everyone on this board would know his name) and the horror story he tells made me hate her. Her cuntishness is unparalleled. Can't sing. Can't act. Can't direct. Can barely dance. She is just a calculating cunt.

• R78 share some of her cuntish stories? We never get enough of hearing what a nightmare she is. All those dumbo gays who still love her around the world should be jailed for stupidity and bad taste. but R73 tha'ts the point. Madonna doesn't improve anything she steals. She doesn't make anything with her shit voice sound better. She just steals it and her fans lap it up like the cum of their dream guy was being shot in their mouth. Gays who like Madonna almost make me want to be homophobic.

• r79 why does this trouble you so? what is the sad pathological reasoning behind your hatred that prevents you from moving on with you life and letting this go? why do you care if other people like her? of what consequence is it to you? your point has been established. you don't like her. so? what are you hoping to accomplish? are you hoping to sway someone to say, "you're right, I hate her now too. what have you really accomplished, even if you succeed. some other potential fan will just replace the fan you swayed. you're gonna quioxte yourself into insanity. leave it alone. seriously.

• madonna most assuredly improved jem's shitty song.

• God. You know, when I knew her in the old times she was such a talented star. Now it's like " wow! How did that and this and that there then happen" ?!?!? The times the do change and so the wind blows, berry blowey. It's like, when her and Jeff knew each other, it was romantic and ralphy. You nereberknow. IT HAPPENS! Rape is almost never funny.

• R80 it's just very annoying that in the past 30 years there have been many talented, nicer and better looking acts who either had brief moments of fame or none at all while this bitch is celebrated as the queen of pop. It's appalling.

• R45/R80 etc.= Michele Visage

• R78 - who's your friend? Ricky Martin? Cheyenne Jackson? Richard Chamberlain? Who?? WHO?!??!!!!

• Funny how you never get this kind of nonsense from Janet.

• R84 = Lourdes

• [quote] it's just very annoying that in the past 30 years there have been many talented, nicer and better looking acts who either had brief moments of fame or none at all while this bitch is celebrated as the queen of pop. It just goes to prove we don't like nice and talented. That's boring. Madonnas sin of late is making really bad AND boring music. Confessions was her last decent album.

• R88 that's the thing. I could tolerate her cunty attitude if she were talented. Prince is an example or if she were nice her lack of talent wouldn't bother me so much. The combo of cuntish behavior/attitude and no talent is just too much.

• [quote]Funny how you never get this kind of nonsense from Janet. You can say that again.

  Janet Jackson--Academy Award Nominee

• Does anyone remember when she tried learning guitar? She did an interview and tried to play Stairway To Heaven or something. She would also use her guitar as a prop and only be able to play a few chords. Has she stopped with the guitar prop in concert? When did that end?

• I love threads like this if only because I love waiting for, then reading, the inevitable Janbot posts!!

  I%20heart%20Janbot%21%21

• Does this mean we have to give Gaga at least a little more credit for actually writing her own songs? I realize her Born This Way chorus is derivative of previous songs, but, in reality, it's a very simple chord progression that many, many songs utilize. I can't stand most pop music, but I like Gaga because she actually is a decent musician.

• R91, she is using the guitar on her current tour

• R94, does she actually play it or does she just strum a few chords? I've seen video where she strums a few chords and then starts talking to the audience. She's never taken the time to learn to play but she just uses it as a prop it seems. She isn't embarrassed?

• At least madonana is not fan like Janet or britney

• R95, I remember years and years ago Madonna was on Letterman and was playing guitar. I don't remember the song. Her "guitar" playing was utterly ridiculous. She could hardly strum, you could see her "will" her fingers to find the right strings needed to play the chord (which seems to be a perfect metaphor for her whole career). It was embarrassing.

  Guitarist

• R93 yes. People can say what they want about Gaga, but the bitch can sing, play the piano, write and compose. She's a much more talented version of Madonna, which is probably why Vadge is so pressed these days.

• yes, so talented

  http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DQ1fsFtf5mSg

• [quote]At least madonana is not fan like Janet or britney Whaa???

• r98 If you're judging Gaga by Britney/Rihanna standards then yes, she has talent. Lady Gaga cannot sing, is not a good dancer, her music sucks and her lyrics are painfully bad.

• [quote]Lady Gaga cannot sing Are you deaf? Lady Gaga can most certainly sing, a whole hell of a lot better than not only Madonna, but Britney and Rihanna too. The rest of your summation is just opinion.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD3J1kFkva8

• Madonna changed the direction of feminism. You can't argue that.

• "Madonna changed the direction of feminism. You can't argue that." Nice try; what we're arguing about is whether she has any talent. Nope. You can't argue that.

• Madonna's problem is she didn't become educated and worldly before becoming famous. She's like a high school girl still to this day.

• R101 even Gaga's greatest critics don't diss her voice. The girl can sing; whether you like her music or not is irrelevent. Madonna is the one who can't sing.

• Whitney sucked

• Her concert is the most entertaining

• Gaga can sing but her songs are just ok. She will never come close to the 50 (or however many) top ten singles Madonna has. Gaga has about 3 decent songs, which basically repeat the chorus for 5 minutes.

  69%20King

• Most of Madonna's hits are trash..."Like A Virgin"? "Material World"? "Music"? those are disposable. She has only a few signature memorable hits. Gaga might not have that longevity but her talent is what Madonna wishes she had.

• [quote]I hate to see this thread devolve into a flame war, but you cannot say that Madonna is not talented. I agree. She's a talented performer, a talented entertainer. People see her shows for the big spectacle, the energy. And, even if most of her songs can be dismissed as shallow pop music, so what? The best pop songs are beloved because they are great songs. But, I think the thread is really about her musical chops, not so much that she isn't talented at all. And, even those who acknowledge that she does indeed have some musical talent (even if it's just having an ear of for changing this or that to produce a great tune), many believe that she's getting TOO much credit where it's not due.

• Madonna's whole career has been about getting credit that is NOT due her. Her vocals suck, her lyrics are not her own work and many of those aren't impressive either, her imagery and appearance are rip offs...I mean c'mon. Madonna is good at pulling ideas from other creative people and making it seem like it is all her creation. She's like a used car salesman who somehow gets a higher price than when the car was brand new.

• Every "artist" in the world is derivative. Madonna is the sum of her parts. Her genius is knowing what sounds, words, images to combine to create a cohesive whole. And she's done it better than anyone else for 30 years. Why is having an eye and ear for what works not talent? So many others have tried and failed. As for her being a cunt...easy to cast aspersions...but others who have her level of fame have burned out (Prince, Springsteen) gone nuts (Michael Jackson, Cher) or died (Michael and Whitney) if being a cunt as given her the wherewithal to survive a business that has left so many as roadkill, more power to her.

• Praising her for being a cunt is ridiculous. When she started she was a cunt because she knew she didn't have the looks or talent to make it on those qualities alone so she played a cutthroat, enemy-making game to rise to the top. Now that she's established herself, she's just a cunt for no reason. She's a cunt to both the "big" and "small" people, even her fans. Look at Dolly Parton, one of the richer and longest-running women in the business. You won't hear a bad word about her either. Everyone says she's a sweetheart.

• [quote}Madonna changed the direction of feminism. Not really- it's all about herself, the fact that she is a woman is kinda secondary. She acts like some awful male chauvenist rock star.

• r114. You're an idiot, a fool and revisionist. How would you rise to the top by being purposely being cunt?

• Madonna has always done that. She adds a lyric or two to get a name credit. But at least she adds at least a line. Not like Elvis who would refuse to record any language unless he got a full credit and full royalty.

• [quote]Not like Elvis who would refuse to record any language unless he got a full credit and full royalty. Elvis got a cowriter credit on 6 songs out of about 800 recordings. Christ. It's a gossip board, not a fiction forum. And wtf is "record any language"? Idiot.

• R103, Madonna did nothing for feminism. Acting slutty is not what feminism is about. Feminism is all about choices for women. Got that? Choices.

• acting slutty is a choice.

• the Youtube video at R35 is now unlisted.

  R70

• This site won't let me post aisha's link but I found the link so I'll spell it out aishamusic.wordpress.com All of her ripoffs chronicled

• won't let me post links but found the direct link to the ripoffs at a site called sickittenish dot com. Go to the Madonna category on the left and then search for "You will never view"Madonna the same once you know this" and then the link is in the story to Aisha.

• Madonna still being talked about 30 years later, that in itself is an accomploshment

• Madonna did a lot for feminism. She was pro-sex in a time when feminists were sexless and saw victimhood everywhere.

• Feminism and Madonna should not be used in the same sentence. She flashed her tits to draw attention. Nothing else.

• Are feminist not allowed to have and show their tits?

• I know many of you are going to shit because I've linked to Camille Paglia, but she has many valid points about why Madonna is a feminist: Madonna is the true feminist. She exposes the puritanism and suffocating ideology of American feminism, which is stuck in an adolescent whining mode. Madonna has taught young women to be fully female and sexual while still exercising total control over their lives. She shows girls how to be attractive, sensual, energetic, ambitious, aggressive and funny -- all at the same time. American feminism has a man problem. The beaming Betty Crockers, hangdog dowdies and parochial prudes who call themselves feminists want men to be like women. They fear and despise the masculine. The academic feminists think their nerdy bookworm husbands are the ideal model of human manhood. But Madonna loves real men. She sees the beauty of masculinity, in all its rough vigor and sweaty athletic perfection. She also admires the men who are actually like women: transsexuals and flamboyant drag queens, the heroes of the 1969 Stonewall rebellion, which started the gay liberation movement.

  http://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/14/opinion/madonna-finally-a-real-feminist.html?pagewanted=2&src=pm

• I think the Aisha person is a schizophrenic?

• Once a whore...

• [quote]Whitney did deserve writing credits whether she claimed them or not. Babyface tells stories of how she would sweep in, decide she didnt like the tempo or the backgrounds or the melody and change it. He says that for Exhale (Shoop Shoop) she did it in 2 takes and refused to do it his way. She added to the creativity and her version was clearly a hit. She deserved a small writing credit there. Weird, this reminds me of an interview with David Foster, the guy who produced her version of 'I Will Always Love You', saying the exact same thing about Whitney, but intended it as a criticism and a reason why he preferred working with Celine Dion. He said she would come with her own ideas, change things, never give him what he asked for, and that by the time they were done, the song would be nothing like he'd envisaged. Dion, on the other hand would sing every note exactly as she was asked which is why she was his favourite. He did, concede, Whitney had great instincts and what came out was often better.

• Madge u won me over! I'm a die hard fan again. The songs at your mdna are crappy but you still managed to make it so good! Better than your last 4 concerts!

  Madge%20fan%20forevah

• Do you idiots understand that songwriting is more than just who writes lyrics. Tempo, melody, counter melody, background melody, a

• Her madjesty!

• Madge is fab and MDNA is excellent.

• Even though I'm a fan, mdna sucks ass. She sang about Jesus, gang bang, meth, murder, basically throwing the controversy kitchen sink. Showed her tits, dissed gaga, cried, and the public still ignored her. Her days on top are really over. Even her concerts are not selling out anymore.

• I beg to disagree, r136, I think it's a fucking great album. And, so what if all her concerts don't seel out anymore? She's been doing this for 30 years, it's pretty big to be performing in stadiums still. R119, Madonna did lots for both feminism and gays. People who say she didn't were not around at the time and don't know anything about life in the 80s or early 90s or anything Madonna did.

• Talent borrows... Genius steals... Even Michael Jackson....

  http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DqRjj7fLfpZM

• As I said earlier in the thread, Madonna clearly writes or has great input in the writing of her songs, because of so many recurring themes. For example, "falling." "I'm not afraid to fall a hundred times." Pretender (Like A Virgin) "And if I fall, I get up again now" Over and Over (Like A Virgin) "I was not ready for the fall" Live to Tell (True Blue) "And when it falls, we won't let it die. Causing a Commotion (Who's That Girl) "Don't be afraid to fall, I'll hear you when you call." Spotlight (You Can Dance) "I close my eyes, oh God I think I'm falling" Like A Prayer (Like A Prayer) "I can't keep from falling in love with you." Deeper and Deeper (Erotica) "I've climbed the tree of life, that is why, no longer scared if I fall." Nothing Fails (American Life) Awfully big coincidence if these songs were all written by different writers.

• R116 you're the fool and an apologist. Ask most people in the business who have worked with this woman and they won't have good things to say about her. She's selfish, greedy and treats people like shit. Also this "Madonna did a lot for feminism" is such BS. She flashed her naughty bits on stage as a means of getting attention because she knows she can't rely on just her talent, since her talent is so minimal. Some people chose to interpret her sexuality as feminism when it's really Madonna trying to be controversial for the sake of generating buzz. Not only that, she's far from the first woman to use sexuality as part of her act. Heck, she totally copied the lingerie on stage thing from Vanity. All of Madonna's ideas came from other entertainers but she just got credit for them, just like her writing. She's someone who wanted fame and fortune and was willing to do anything and anybody to get it. If she wasn't so rich now, you can best believe she would be one of those hasbeens doing a reality show. In fact, if her music keeps bombing, I wouldn't put it past her in a few years to join the reality tv train.

• Anybody bring up her stealing "Justify My Love" from Ingrid Chavez? A judge decided against Madonna and Lenny Kravitz in a suit against them, because a demo and lyric sheet existed. Madonna took it -and paid.

  Anonymous

• [quote]she totally copied the lingerie on stage thing from Vanity You can say that again

  http://data.whicdn.com/images/1148101/tumblr_kuot5yM7i11qa05gmo1_500_thumb.jpg

• Ripped off Kylie Minogue with beret and stars in background. Ripped off Lauper's look early on.

• Wow - I totally love the Jem version of this - it was beautiful. The Madonna version is AWFUL - her voice sounds nasal and inexpressive. Also the versions are identical.

• Maybe she should go away or act her age?

• She's a feminist icon in that she rose to the top of a male-dominated profession, making her own decisions and keeping control of the money she made. She's an antifeminist icon for her exploitation of her sexuality for profit, her terrible choices in men and her embarrassingly evident masochism.

• r140 Everything you say may or may not be correct. But it is certainly irrelevant. Madonna succeeded and you're a whining crybaby wishing it weren't so.

• Lenny Kravitz stole Justify My Love...and Ingrid got paid but wanted to whine because she didn't have the guts to release it herself. Besides, it wouldn't have been a hit without Madonna.

• Kravitz did steal Justify My Love BUT Chavez didn't get the writing credits for it until she took Kravitz and Vadge to court and the judge MADE them add her name to the credits. Also, Madonna has a history of this. She fucking bought the lyrics of a fucking Gap commercial for her song "Sky fits heaven" or whatever it's called. Who does that? Her "Material Girl" stole the melody of Melissa Manchester's song "You Should Hear How She Talks About You" which came out only 1-2 years before. There are COUNTLESS examples of Madonna stealing or buying lyrics, melodies, hairstyles, clothing styles and dance moves from other entertainers and having the nerve to claim them as her own ideas. There's nothing original about her. Cher said it best 20 years ago about Madonna "She's not beautiful, nice or that talented". Those gays who still continue to love Vadge are fools. Why idolize and celebrate such a fraud?

• Don't forget about Star Search winner Sam Harris's "Sugar Don't Bite". The melody of the "Papa Don't Preach" chorus totally lifted the melody of Sam's song, and it was noted as such back then.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPf0jCF1wHQ

• She didn't claim to write "papa don't preach" though. She added like one insipid line and the credits read, With additional lyrics by Madonna. So stupid.

• so she shouldn't be credited for her one insipid line? if she wrote lyrics, even one. she wrote lyrics, you bufoon.

• [quote]Wow - I totally love the Jem version of this - it was beautiful. FUCK YOU!

  http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhbc5rzFMq1qc0laio1_500.gif

  Pizzazz

• r149 take the dick out of your ear. material girl and manchester's song sound nothing alike. even if they did, not madonna's fault, she didn't write it. barely even likes it. please get informed before joining a mob mentality.

• That would be 'buffoon' [r152].

  No%20writing%20credit%20for%20you.

• Re r47: I love how the detractors always come up with 'Candy Man' by the Mary Jane Girls. The songs has ZERO resemblace with 'Into the Groove'. None. You might as well compare 'Into the Groove' with 'Amazing Grace' or 'The Star Spangled Banner' and complain how identital they are. Makes as much sense.

• Now that I think about it, Candyman and ITG do have very similar basslines. It's certainly more believable than the ridiculous Born This Way/Express Yourself brouhaha.

• R154 you're an idiot. Listen to the chorus and refrain of Manchester's song and then the verse portions of Madonna's song. It's basically the same beat.

• Sooooo at Madonna's LA show, after baring her ass in a song, Madonna had the name "Malala" written on the small of her back, in some kind of bizarre dedication to the Pakistani girl who was shot by the Taliban. Writing her name just over your ass? How is that a tribute? Also, Vadge was 2 1/2 hours late to her own concert. Why are people still putting up with this?

• Anyone see on WWHL recently when Cyndi Lauper was a guest? Andy Cohen asked what their relationship is like and Cyndi said (I'm paraphrasing): "I don't really know her. Right from the beginning when she made it big she had these bodyguards surround her and block everyone (Cyndi made a tunnel vision sign) as she walked in the room". What a bitch, that Vadge.

• You can't argue with the sublime artistry of her lyrics: If you were the Mona Lisa You'd be hanging in the Louvre Everyone would come to see you You'd be impossible to move

  Ow%2C%20my%20ears%2C%20my%20ears...%20

• Give Me All Your Lovin has the best lyrics DUH. The bitch is such a lyrical wizzzzz. I can't wait for her next floppy album. I expect her to copy Adele and dress conservatively.

• r 158 you fucktard, how is your comment even relevant in a thread about madonna stealing songs, when she didn't even write it. back on the meds for you.

• R163 you Vadge stinking fool, this thread is not limited to lyrics. Madonna has stolen or copied every aspect of a song, from the lyrics to the melodies. "Material Girl" was an early example of that. Just because you don't want to accept it doesn't mean it's not true. This bitch is a thief.

• Mad-Donna has stolen EVERY aspect of her career from others. This delusional woman has stolen from already established fashion icons, actresses, music artists, fine artists/photographers, the elevator girl at Danceteria...well EVERYONE. I don't see one area of her persona which can be construed as being original. Her fans need to admit she's a thieving talent free 'singer'.

• R165 *claps* I wish more gays would understand this. She is BELOVED by some people and it's sickening. I assume these people are illiterate or lack comprehension.

• "thieving talent free singer " LOL so true

• duh. anyone who still thinks she has talent is an idiot.

• I think that nutty Aisha has found Datalounge. God help us all.

• I would say Madonna's people must post here to defend her but then I realized, I'm sure most of her own people probably hate her. It must be that her fans really are that delusional.

• R 164 Again, you are a moron, how does she steal what she does not to profess to have written. I'd be the idiot if I continue to discuss with a fool. Fuck tard

• R171 wtf is your problem with understanding? Stealing/copying can be lyrics or melodies. Madonna has stolen/copied BOTH of those throughout her career and often doesn't give credit. No mention of the people who worked on Melissa Manchester's song is included on "Material Girl" even though it's obvious they stole the beat of the refrain/chorus. If you can't understand how that's stealing/copying you really are a fool. There are simply too many of these incidents for them all to be made up or a coincidence. I guess Vadge stans really are that stupid after all.

• I love when she tries playing instruments in concerts lol she looks so awkward.

• r 172 At what point are you going to realize that whatever stealing took place with Material Girl, has nothing to do with Madonna but rather the actual writer of THAT song. Jeez, you're dense.

• R174 it wasn't the lyrics that were stolen, it was the melody. It's hard to know whether it was Madonna or 1 of the other people who decided to steal it. Given that MUCH of Madonna's future works would feature stolen melodies or lyrics on them and that SHE was involved in it, I find it laughable that some people automatically assume she had nothing to do with this case. Whether it was Madonna's idea or not, she obviously knew of Manchester's song and the melody, since it was a decent sized hit 1-2 years before "Material Girl" came out.

• Make up your minds. First you say Madonna has minimal input. Then you say she steals. You unnatural hags need to get your stories straight or get back on your meds.

• R176 clearly you don't know about Madonna's work methods. Everyone else does the work while she OKS or No's what they come up with. SHe'll find some other entertainer's cool idea to steal and throw it into the mix which becomes her credited contribution lol. She's a shady bitch and her defenders are morons.

• Good for her for taking charge of her sound and image. Her business acumen is phenomenal. You think Steve Jobs came up with every element of every Apple device. He even admitted stealing the graphic interface from IBM, yet he is lauded as a visionary. Fuck you all and your venom. Sorry you didn't think of what Jobs or Madonna did. Maybe her "talent" isn't what you believe it to be but there is definitely "talent" there to sustain a 30 year career. And before you bemoan all the other artists she stole from or whose songs she jacked, remember, no one forced them. Elvis stole songs for years, everyone knows it, it didn't diminish him in the eyes of his fans. The Beatles admitted they stole riffs, they're lauded as geniuses. Dolly Parton refused to hand over the rights to I Will Always Love You. It still got recorded and she got rich. If these songwriters have such little faith in their songs that they give them away...fuck 'em.

• [quote] If these songwriters have such little faith in their songs that they give them away...fuck 'em. I would imagine some sell the songs because they need the money. Just sayin'

• R178 what do you mean "no one forced them" ? lol half the time Madonna just steals without asking and the other half she'll buy it to get credits. It just shows she is not talented at making music because she has to pull from what others have done. A true artist paints a painting from inspirations in life. Madonna would see a painting and then try to paint it herself. That's what kind of hack she is. Just because it works for her doesn't mean she has talent.

• Her talent being and marketing Madonna, moron.

• Her talent is being an attentionwhore. She'll stoop to levels to which no one else would lower themselves.

• so?

• So? Your pants!

• I just don't see how any of this matters. Madonna's not the first to borrow/steal. Bigger names than her have done it. Lesser names steal from her. And in the end, the OP will change no one's mind, so, "so" is the best entry on this thread.