Anyone who thinks that China- the centrally planned, government directed, deficit financed, crony capitalist "economic miracle"- is going to survive any serious downturn in the US and/or EU (or vice versa) is fooling themselves. Building shitty bridges to $100B ghost towns is neither "productive" nor sustainable.
One of the longest bridges in northern China collapsed on Friday, just nine months after it opened.
NYT has the details:
One of the longest bridges in northern China collapsed on Friday, just nine months after it opened, triggering a storm of criticism from Chinese Internet users and underscoring questions about the quality of construction in China’s rapid expansion of its infrastructure.
A nearly 330-foot-long section of a ramp of the eight-lane Yangmingtan Bridge in the city of Harbin dropped 100 feet to the ground. Four trucks plummeted with it, resulting in three deaths and five injuries.
The 9.6-mile bridge is one of three built over the Songhua River in that area in the past four years,
Note that NYT ties the collapse in with economic growth in China. Growth has nothing to do with it. The private sector doesn't build shoddy products that will result in collapse and losses. China's infrastructure is entirely the result of central planning, and local political cronies are rewarded for completion of projects and little else. Thus, resulting in poor quality product that is constructed quickly and cheaply.
Apparently OP is unaware that during America's industrialization in the late 19th century, organized by the robber barons, bridge collapses were routine. All of America is poorly engineered. What little quality we have dates from 1945-1965. Everything before and since was worthless.
R1, we were still perfecting materials and engineering tech 100 years ago, so that is no excuse for a bridge younger than Blu Ivy Carter to collapse.
Would you buy a 50 story (vacant) ChiCom constructed skyscraper? If not, do you expect any reasonable company to do so at anything less than a catastrophic discount to construction cost? The infrastructure is worth far less than the money it took to build it.
Ergo, wealth was destroyed by building these ghost cities, and the bridges that connect them to nowhere. But, that's the nature of all government projects.
I love china. Can't wait for them to buy America.
Sory to disappoint you r3 but there is a reason the elite of China are moving huge amounts of their own money out of China. The "data" we recieve from the government is about as solid as potato chip.
Did you see today's Times about the HUGE amount of unsold inventory piling up in China during this past year? At a certain point they will have to slow down their production, which has already begun to reverberate worldwide since less raw materials will be purchased.
[quote] Chinese news media reported that the bridge had cost 1.88 billion renminbi, or almost $300 million.
a 9.6 mile bridge in the us would cost more than $10 billion.
Look, it all comes down to corruption. Here in Korea it is the same thing. I was told not to ever use the KTX train system here. The French company that oversaw the plans actually left the country in disgust and wiped their hands of the whole thing, not wanting their name involved in what they considered to be an inevitable tragedy. Apparently the concrete pillars holding the bridges up are completely empty. The concrete that was meant to be inside them is probably part of another building by now.
My landlord build a house on top of his apartment building. A house. I left when cracks started to appear above my door frame and in the hall.
'Put it up fast, put it up cheap, and put it up ugly..'
My brother is a structural engineer and he holds his breath every time he crosses certain bridges right here at home.
He knows what poor repair our own infrastructure is in.
The taxes are low!
OP = Schadenfreude
[quote]But, that's the nature of all government projects.
The Apollo Program, D-Day, the internet, the TVA, the Rural Electrification Project, the Hoover Dam, and the Interstate Highway System beg to differ, but why let facts spoil a good rant!
Wow something in China is cheaply made, who'd have thunk it.
Everything made in China over here breaks too, so why wouldn't it happen over there? Fortunately we don't let China make bridges over here, just kitchen gadgets.
And where is that new bridge in San Francisco coming from?????
CHINA!!!! Good luck when the first earthquake hits.
[quote]SHANGHAI — Talk about outsourcing. At a sprawling manufacturing complex here, hundreds of Chinese laborers are now completing work on the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge.
Imagine when the Chinese company, Chery Automotive starts selling cars in the USA. Chery meet American built pickup truck. It is almost planned population reduction.
It's a nation of cheaters governed by corruption.
People aren't going to knowingly buy Chinese made automobiles, R13. There are, however, some cars such as the Volvo S40 that are built in China, and Geely of China now owns Volvo. The bulk of Volvos are still built in Sweden, but I wonder how much longer that will last, and I wonder whether or not quality will decline as more production moves to China (which is slated to happen).
Chinese cars, Chery and Geely, are sold in south america. They come out of the dealer with rust problems and the shock absorbers last only about 2 months. After about 8 months the cars start falling apart and it's a fucking nightmare trying to find spare parts.
Sure, OP, and the US isn't.
What is really scary is General Motors is starting to use a high percentage of Chinese made parts in their new cars. At what point does the car become Chinese made? 20%, 50%, 99%? but the windshield wipers were installed in the USA, so .....
Yeah china produces crap and Americans buy them on credit card debt lol lol lol
I misread "Chery" as "Cheryl." Those Cheryl cars stink to high heaven!
Maybe they should get China to start making credit cards, then people will stop using them because they always break at the store.
[quote]Everything made in China over here breaks too, so why wouldn't it happen over there?
Like the Great Wall Of China, that's like what, a couple hundred years old?
Great wall of china is thousands of years old
Great...let them continue making walls of stone and leave the more modern and complicated technologies, like can openers, to advanced societies.
It was probably put together with the snot that they love to shoot from their noses using their fingers. I hope that big dam they built collapses as well- don't like em, don't trust em.....never eat in a Chinese restaurant!
Madame Chiang Kai Shek
China tried since 1956, to put a man into space, but their rockets kept blowing up, so they hired a team of NASA engineers to help them, a couple of these NASA engineers were sons of the original Scientists of the US Apollo program. Finally, China launched its first man into space in 2003, 33 years after the USA. But this is not the ironic part, the ironic part is, the technology which China was using, before NASA came over, was stolen from NASA by Chinese spies, years earlier and they still couldn’t make it work.
[quote]a 9.6 mile bridge in the us would cost more than $10 billion.
I think spending the extra $9.7 billion to have one that lasts more than a few months is probably worth it.
They weren't NASA engineers -- the people who helped China with their launch vehicles were from Hughes and Loral. Both companies got busted for it.
Once technology reduced much of engineering to pushing buttons for software, China could handle it. Also, once they had specs and procedures to copy, they could do it.
Innovation, however, dies with them.
Blah blah blah. The fact is Americans are fucked and Chinese on the rise. Yay, karma is a bitch.
[quote]The fact is Americans are fucked
[quote]Chinese on the rise.
China has risen has far as it's going to.
You're buying into media hysteria.
In the 50's and through the 70's we were going to be conquered by Russia.
In the 80's we were destined to become robotic slaves to the Japanese
Now people are pissing themselves over China.
Americans love having something to be frightened about.
The biggest threat to America today is Wall Street, not China.
Who Broke China?
The world is awash in cheap Chinese made goods which do not last....and fast running out of raw materials used to the make stuff.
THAT'S a time bomb!
Asainas ruin everything
At least we are not scrubbing toilets
Nobody scrubs the toilets at McDonalds, trust me I've been in a couple.
China is breaking, but the 8 year olds working in the factories, are replacing the week old broken parts faster than they break, so China continues to move forward.
I wonder if China will fall victim to the Olympic curse. Every one-party state which held the Olympics has collapsed within 10 years.
Berlin in 1936-the defeat of the Third Reich
Moscow in 1980-implosion of the Soviet Union
Sarajevo in 1984-gruesome civil war of the 90s
Beijing in 2008-
R1, in a sniveling imitation of "the informed historian," attempts to compare 19th century engineering with 21st century systems.
Idiot. Apologist for corrupt, incompetent thieves. Uneducated nitwit.
The part about everything in America being built poorly lifts the post into insanity. Go away, you nut.
Tell me about it, OP.
China spray painted the grass green during the Olympics. Sounds like the curse has already hit.
[quote]What little quality we have dates from 1945-1965. Everything before and since was worthless.
Some of eldergays are truly deluded.
[quote]I love china. Can't wait for them to buy America.
Why wait? Why not move to China tomorrow?
China is not going to buy America. China loaned America a trillion and America is going to start a trade war and default.
Considering how much American technology China has stolen, think of the default as more a one time compensation for the theft of American intellectual property.
It can't be that old. Did they even have Chinese back then. I think China has only been around since like the Mongols right?
Chinas history goes back 5 thousand years. Americans so fail in education.
Mexicans moving to the USA to claim welfare, emergency hospital scare, free public education, free school lunches, free housing, cinder that as payment for land stolen from Mexico.
American history goes back 5 thousand years, if you ask the native Americans.
Very good points r30.
If you feel like China breaking, if you feel like laughing...
China is the Dollar Store factory.
And most Americans nowadays can only afford dollar stores
Ironic that China takes American jobs, forcing generations into minimum wage service work, who can in return, only afford to buy cheap and poorly made stuff imported from China.
It is a double whammy lock-in.
Cui bono, R54?
The politicians? The banksters? The multinational companies?
The top .01% gets insanely rich, while the rest starve.
What a stable system!
Until people like R54 wake up to the fact that all governments are bought and paid for by the biggest players (who pretend to be in favor of the "poor" on the left, and for the "rich" on the right") and that nothing will change until government powers are restored to the hyperlocal level, then they will not understand that "voting" changes nothing, and cannot understand what is really happening.
I would think environmental laws would be the way to counter China - considering the insane amount of raw materials China wastes because consumers are frequently throwing out poorly made Chinese goods.
Gee how bad is China breaking. Growth only 7% this year?
China is not "taking" our jobs -they are and were GIVEN our jobs by Wall Street and the politicians that Wall Street controls.
So they build their bridges, the same way they make their clothes for Walmart?
Frankly, I think America has been doing everything the same way. Everything on the cheap.
Well we taught them, R61.
They made the mistake of stealing our technology. They should have stolen Germany's.
China steals from every western nation, Primarily USA, Germany, Sweden, Holland, England, Canada, France, Spain and Italy.
[quote]Mexicans moving to the USA to claim welfare, emergency hospital scare, free public education, free school lunches, free housing, cinder that as payment for land stolen from Mexico.
Replace "USA" here with "Hong Kong" and Mexicans with "Mainland-Chinese" and it's a similar situation. Hong Kong's hospitals are bursting with mainland women desperate to have a child which would give them access to Hong Kong's (still) vastly-superior-to-China's health-care and education.
[quote]They should have stolen Germany's.
They did. China's entire high-speed train system was designed using stolen German technology. That the trains sometimes break down and crash is due to, well... "Made in China"
The real irony is the Chinese steal all this technology because they don't have the ability to invent it themselves and yet, they don't even have the ability to make it work from stolen plans.
It is like cave men stealing the blueprints to a wagon and yet they can't understand why the 4 "rolling round rocks" keep falling off.
China is where it is today because of the U.S. We made China and we can unmake it.
The Chinese haven't invented a single thing and only know to copy (badly). Yes, they are hard-working and industrious, but they lack creativity due to their Communist education and lack of breathing room.
All of this talk about China taking over the world is nonsense. They are a ticking time-bomb of fatal demographics from their one-child policy and do not have the resources to restore their environment and provide for the still largely poor rural population.
I say we nuke China. And let's get those damn Indians, as well.
67 - how can the US "unmake" China?
[quote]but they lack creativity due to their Communist education and lack of breathing room.
They lack creativity because they put the group and power before reality.
As in the west, most of their great thinkers have needed a space outside the box. When they can get it, they are fine.
The US used to be a whole country outside the box but not any more.
China going to bankrupt USA lol lol
The USA will eventually default on its loans to China, guaranteed.
No shit, R72. 200+ trillion dollars of unfunded liabilities guarantee it.
Anyone who owns US debt is a fool.
America isn't so much fucked. But if the American economy tanks we take almost all of Asia and much of Europe with us.
The reason you haven't seen a world war since WW II is because they found a way to prevent war - link them economically. That makes a big difference.
[quote]It's a nation of cheaters governed by corruption.
This could apply to any country, honey. Except maybe Norway and Sweden.
[quote]The Chinese haven't invented a single thing and only know to copy (badly). Yes, they are hard-working and industrious, but they lack creativity due to their Communist education and lack of breathing room.
How about paper, gunpowder, printing, and paper money? You're pretty poorly informed.
If you're going to judge China for its focus on the larger society, perhaps you should look at the West's emphasis on individualism and unfettered freedom. That has certainly lead to insurmountable public and private debt, global warming, and unnecessary wars. We will not change. We will just continue to consume...
China's rise is not good for any labor market outside of it, except perhaps for India.
It doesn't make sense to say they steal technology, or their stuff is not good - the truth is that in our interconnected global economy, the Chinese peasant is a drag on labor prices.
Although not politically correct to say so, a little protectionism would go a long way for all of us.
"How about paper, gunpowder, printing, and paper money? You're pretty poorly informed."
Nobody was talking about 1,000 years ago.
The Arabs invented the mathematical concept of zero, which was far more significant that the Chinese ancient and last 4 inventions, yet Intel is not relocating to Saudi Arabia to milk its untapped, genius scientists.
[quote]It's a nation of cheaters governed by corruption.
Sorry but which country are you referring to here?
We need to copy their engineering curriculum!
The Chinese do not understand the difference between memorization and learning. This is why their graduates can not think critically, they only regurgitate information.
In a world where you can store 1,000s of technical books in your phone, it makes no sense to hire humans just to regurgitate information.
The real mistake made in too many universities today, is giving As to students who only repeat what they are told.
The people that will not concede that the Chinese economy is a Central Government planned disaster waiting to happen will be the same people that will be shocked- SHOCKED- when their paychecks no longer cover the basics of food, housing and energy due to the trillions the Federal Reserve has printed over the last few years.
All the World has to do to end China's dominance and destruction of other economies is stop selling it raw materials. The big dollar store factory imports most of its raw materials and energy.
Blah blah blah R82. We can always repudiate our debt and start over. Pretty much anything would be preferable to having a brainless prick like you in charge.
Which was my first suggestion posted earlier on this thread R84. But refusal to pay the national debt, would set a dangerous precedent for Americans refusing to pay back loans and credit card bills - the government did it so why can't I do it too.
Cutting off raw materials, does the same thing and avoids this internal risk. Also there are no trade laws in place that force countries to sell raw materials to China. The only such agreement I am aware of is NAFTA, which forces Canada to always sell Oil to the USA.
China Admits Problems With Three Gorges Dam
"According to official figures, the venture cost China about $23 billion, but outside experts estimate it may have cost double that amount. The dam has been plagued by reports of floating archipelagoes of garbage, carpets of algae and landslides on the banks along the vast expanse of still water since the 600-foot-tall dam on the Yangtze River was completed in 2006. Critics also have complained that the government has fallen far short of its goals in helping to resettle the 1.4 million people displaced by the rising waters behind the dam."
You know things must be bad when the government is forced to admit it. Another diaster waiting to happen.
Everything You Think You Know About China is Wrong:
"The latest news from Beijing is indicative of Chinese weakness: a persistent slowdown of economic growth, a glut of unsold goods, rising bad bank loans, a bursting real estate bubble, and a vicious power struggle at the top, coupled with unending political scandals. Many factors that have powered China's rise, such as the demographic dividend, disregard for the environment, supercheap labor, and virtually unlimited access to external markets, are either receding or disappearing."
America had a roaring economy in the 1920s and we crashed. I think China's underlying problems are far worse than America's in the 1920s. But what effect would a Chinese crash have on the rest of the world?
China crash = Explosion in jobs, drop in pollution, massive increase in the quality and durability of manufactured goods and Wall Street gets poorer....OR India becomes the new Dollar Store factory and the downward cycle continues.
When China collapses from all the government mismanagement it will rock the world, unless the EU or US gets there first.
It will rock the worlds Dollar Stores and Walmart, but that would be a good thing.
Don't push too far.
[quote]The Chinese do not understand the difference between memorization and learning. This is why their graduates can not think critically, they only regurgitate information.
Of course the Chinese understand memorization vs. learning.
Learning is not promoted because it leads to thinking. Thinking leads to revolution. That's why Chinese authorities don't want their people thinking.
But that also applies to ethnic Chinese who permanently immigrated to the USA R94. Not just those who still live in China.
I'll get the super glue!!!
The Chinese workers are starting to agitate against their slave labor conditions, like the coal miners of the 1900s.
Chinese made super glue is actually recycled sweet and sour sauce collected from restaurant garbage bins.... or is it the other way around?, sweet and source sauce is recycled Chinese made super glue... so hard to tell anymore.
While most "developed world" people have heard of Hong Kong and Macau, far fewer have heard of China's province of Guangdong, which is somewhat surprising. With over 100 million people, a GDP of nearly $1 trillion - the biggest of all Chinese provinces, this South China Sea adjacent territory is perhaps China's most important economic dynamo. One of the key cities of Guangdong is Dongguan, which as the map below shows is a stone's throw from Hong Kong, has a population of nearly 10 million, and has long been considered Guangdong's boomtown and one of China's richest cities.
One notable feature about Dongguan is that it is home to the New South China Mall, which is the world's largest. It also happens to be mostly empty ever since it opened in 2005. Which perhaps is a good segue into this story. Because while for the most part the city of Dongguan has been a story of prosperity, a wrinkle has appeared. According to the South China Morning Post, which cites researchers at Sun Yat-sen University, this city is now on the brink of bankruptcy.
Make that a big wrinkle.
The irony, of course, is that as always happens, while everyone has been expecting the muni collapse to take place in the good old US of A, it may be about to strike with a great vengeance and furious anger none other than that credit black hole, in which nobody really knows who owes what to whom, China.
How is it possible that a city which as the SCMP describes was once a backwater farm town until the late 1980s, and then as China boomed was transformed into one of the most important hi-tech manufacturing centres in the world, and about which an IBM vice-president famously said a mere 15-minute jam on the expressway there would be enough to cause worldwide fluctuations in computer prices, could be facing bankruptcy?
The answer is an absolutely fascinating story, one which for the first time exposes what could be the most sordid underbelly of the broken Chinese shadow credit system, and which demonstrates very vividly just what the hard Chinese landing will look like. It also explains precisely what the real creditor-debtor relationships are like in a country in which the banks are the equivalent of government entities, and which do little if any retail crediting in a time when the government is set on contracting the money supply at the wholesale, if not at the bank level (recall the now daily reverse repos conducted by the PBOC).
Most importantly it reveals the monetary dynamic "on the ground" - one which is vastly different than the one in the "western world."
The question is whether the story of Dongguan is an isolated one. Alas, just like there is never one cockroach, we are confident that many more such provinical centers are currently undergoing the same challenges, which if unresolved would lead to a tsunami of municipal, county and city level defaults, that would leave China in ashes.
Ironically, Meredith Whitney may have had the municipal default theme right. She was just envisioning the wrong continent...
Cont at link
OP is right to some degree; China does have deep problems. Because of their one-child policy, they will hit peak labor in about 4 - 6 years, then decline. Their economy is still only a fraction of that of the United States'.
China has built dams (good? who knows) to hoard water they sorely need. India uses the same river, and probably has another perspective. Their industrial modernization has fouled much of their water.
The Chinese do not understand freedom; as one earlier poster said they do not innovate. The Chinese have no functioning democracy, no sense of individual rights and low technological inspiration because ideas get stolen easily.
The main problem is that market prices- the signals of what is and isn't needed based on individual needs and wants- is absent. If the leaders want to build a city the size of NYC in the middle of nowhere, BOOM, they build a city and waste billions. Repeat that a few dozen times and you have a recipe for an epic collapse.
Too bad the only people who understand this are the libertarians like Ron Paul.
R102, get a blog.
They have Billions to waste....
What happens when we invade Iran and China dumps our dollars?
Man, the Ron Paul Troll has been working overtime.
So long as when China cracks it takes the false prosperity of India with it, it's fine with me. Two billion fewer people on the planet would be rather nice.
While our goods stay stuck in traffic, the Chinese transport there's by their network of bullet trains. Over time, that gives them a big advantage.
R108, aren't the bullet trains just for passengers? The freight in that video all seems to be moving by regular old rail.
Chinese goods will never have an advantage, they make terrible quality products.
Who cares how fast they get them to market, they still consistently break and fail their customers: using stolen Western technology, poor quality raw materials and second rate assembly.
There are many nations in the world, currently lining up to make badly made products for even less money. (India, Indonesia etc.)
Chinese goods to not travel by bullet-train.
They're not building bullet trains to get their knock-off crap to the port a few hours faster.
Any society that eats dogs, cats and/or horses does not survive. When we betray our animal friends and helpers we are committing a form of cannibalism; the accompanying karma to that is self-evident.
One of the reasons that the Irish and Irish Americans have sustained such success and resilency is because they have never indulged in animal-cannibalism, even through horrifically impoverished times.
Listen up people! If you eat our helper animals--you will perish!
Break motherfucker, BREAK!
the rest of the world
China should ship their citizens by hundreds of millions to the US. After all if Mexicans can get freebies so can Chinese. If Mexicans can vote so can Chinese. USA would be Chinese soon.
China has been around a hell of a lot longer than Ireland, R112.
So, using your logic, eating cats, dogs, and horses is a recipe for longevity.
Sharks have been around longer than just about anything other complex life form. Using your logic, humans should evolve to become sea creatures.
R115, my carnivore friend,
the Celts/Druids saved civilization! You've certainly heard of Stonehedge, haven't you?
Look, I've nothing against the Chinese personally, but facts are facts. And they are not the only ones who commit these acts of animal-cannibalism--horse-eating is still being practiced in parts of Europe.
And to be most frank, the Chinese are a healthy population in their home country.
Still, what about the feelings of our animal helpers? Do they not matter?
dogs are such loving creatures
The last original thing the Chinese invented was gun powder. They have been existing on ideas, stolen from others, since then.
The USA, Australia, UK and Canada have banned the Chinese telecommunications company, Hauwei, from doing business inside these countries......gee I wonder why, could it be risk of THEFT???
[quote]Look, I've nothing against the Chinese personally, but facts are facts. And they are not the only ones who commit these acts of animal-cannibalism--
R112/117, spewing an ignorant OPINION on the internet does NOT make it a fact. It is still an ignorant unsubstantiated OPINION. Get it?
[quote]What happens when we invade Iran and China dumps our dollars?
Nothing since a) we're not going to invade Iran and b) China can't "dump our dollars" without enormous damage to their economy.
[quote]Man, the Ron Paul Troll has been working overtime.
That he has. I love how he keeps bumping his months-old posts in the vain hope that maybe this time someone will take him seriously.
[quote]my carnivore friend, the Celts/Druids saved civilization! You've certainly heard of Stonehedge, haven't you?
Look, I've nothing against the Chinese personally, but facts are facts.
"facts are facts" What facts, about what?
I don't know what the fuck you're going on about now, and I suspect neither do you.
As for Stonehedge, no, never heard of it.
Maybe you need a nice nutritious bowl of Golden Retriever.
[quote]Chinese goods will never have an advantage, they make terrible quality products.
50 years ago: "Japanese goods will never have an advantage; they make terrible quality products."
Very different cultures.
The Japanese culture has always been detail and quality obsessed. Look at their food, theater and their art.
Japan was just learning to transfer its long history of precision and excellence to mass manufacturing.
Chinese culture can't become something it has never been.
FACT: Dog/Horse-eating civilizations die dramatic deaths.
FACT: Native Americans: gone.
All grand, thriving, exceptional societies that COLLAPSED under the weight of their bad animal-cannibalistic karma.
FACT: non-Dog/Horse eating cultures have survived against all odds.
FACT: Jews, under great stress I might add.
FACT: Muslims, still going strong.
FACT: the Celts/ Druids, even throughout starvation.
FACT: Anglos, under great duress.
FACT: All Nordic cultures had meat and dietary restrictions, this is not widely known.
So, how about these FACTS?
The Chinese builders made a bootleg bridge from a lookalike model bridge they bought on Canal Street.
Where to start?
Money is in farming. They are ditching their industries and turning back to farms for the money to feed the rest of the world. People are now looking elsewhere for manufacturing and foreign companies are buying up American businesses to keep the goods closer to consumers without transportation costs.
Too much more to contribute, but do a search and you will find it.
R123 is spot on. Pride is built-in to their culture. You can't seriously be THAT unaware, can you? You understand what "Face" is, correct?
If not, jump on a Honey Boo Boo thread and let the grown ups talk.
Like any of you know anything about Chinese culture. You guys are just afraid of something different from you and some of you are just outright racists and bigots. But not surprising eh, given the amount of animosity Americans here have expressed for each other based on just which states they are from.
I imagine you've never heard of them, r130, because of course their bad-karma-cannibal civilizations lasted just a few short years, but both the Japanese and the Chinese eat horse and dog meat.
Ut oh. This does not bode well for China's Three Gorge dam, the biggest dam on the planet.
Chinese bridges are good, but a half an hour later, you need a new bridge!
Is it just me, but did everyone, EVERYONE, miss the actual resonance of the OP's post? It had to do with place, and memory, and hauntings - the Chinese manufacturing element was rather tertiary, to say the least.
Anyway, OP, yes, I feel like this sometimes too. But I also believe that years of joy compound too, and it's not so easy to "read" areas as sorrowful or tragic when they may well have many layers of human and other-animal happiness as well.
[quote] Is it just me, but did everyone, EVERYONE, miss the actual resonance of the OP's post? It had to do with place, and memory, and hauntings -
Nope, we didn't miss anything. We just ignored that part because it was stupid.
US Military Intelligence actually factors in the unreliability of Chinese made weapons as a significant part of any War Scenario with China.
[quote] Walking down Mulberry again, I smelt cabbage. (Polish, I know cabbage
Yeah, everybody knows the Chinese don't eat cabbage.
Some already have. As we reported last week, "Cash-strapped Chinese are scrambling to sell their luxury homes in Hong Kong, and some are knocking up to a fifth off the price for a quick sale, as a liquidity crunch looms on the mainland."
Peak oil will end all of this. The end isn't near, it's here.
Not true R141. In fact oil prices would be falling if Iraq's production weren't withheld.
The American consumer is completely tapped out, and that's bad news for Hop Sing Six Pack. I'd almost like to see Americans stop shopping for useless bullshit just to see the effect on people waiting for the US to fall. If we go down, we're taking a lot of people with us.
R131 The Japanese don't eat dogs or cats. Only some Provinces in China like Guangdong and Guangxi eat dogs, western culture is blending with chinese culture. We chinese are starting to dislike eating dogs, so I think in 100 years, China will no longer be eating Dogs. Japan never ate dogs, only ignorant yanks think this.
Well, well, well. Isn't it convenient that the lost Malaysian plane knocked China's liquidity crisis right off the front page?
[quote]All grand, thriving, exceptional societies that COLLAPSED under the weight of their bad animal-cannibalistic karma.
And here I thought I'd seen all the kinds of nutballs DL had to offer.
Isn't the second paragraph more of an "are you fucking kidding me?"
[quote]One of the reasons that the Irish and Irish Americans have sustained such success and resilency is because they have never indulged in animal-cannibalism, even through horrifically impoverished times.
Little known fact: The Irish were the original vegans.
Better known fact: The poor, starving Irish didn't have animals to eat. They didn't even have animals to till their rocky-soiled fields.
The Chinese desperately want their silly little renminbi to become the world's reserve currency so they can build and spend profligately like we do.
[quote] I misread "Chery" as "Cheryl."
I thought it was a racist joke, that the poster was deliberately "mispronouncing" Chevy as "Chery" to sound Asian.
[quote] The poor, starving Irish didn't have animals to eat.
They kept pigs, because they could feed the pigs potato peelings. That's why potatoes were peeled by the Irish. Not because they didn't like the potato skin but because it's what they had to feed the pig.
Obviously, the animals disappeared early on in the famine. There weren't as many sheep farmers in Ireland back then as there are now.
A funny thing -- Scotland has decided to reforest some of the country. Centuries of grazing resulted in the Scotland you see today -- windswept heather, peat bogs, etc. They are seriously planting and overseeing reforestation efforts.
But Ireland doesn't much care. The majority of Irish don't want to reforest. The forestry service has planted some pine trees to harvest for timber, but they are Sitka pines which don't support wildlife. That's fine with the Irish, who are not a great animal-loving culture. They don't want badgers and fox.
Most Irish people have never had a tree on their property. In fact, most Irish have never seen a good tree.
What's absolutely stunning is that Ireland was a net exporter of agricultural products during the famine as about a million of the population died and another million were forced to leave the country.
But thank bejesus for the famine! Otherwise, per R112, the Irish wouldn't be so noble and resilient now due to their forced abstension from meat.
They have Short Man's Disease. A chip on the shoulder about being perceived by the world as backward yokels. They're overcompensating.
I wasn't sure whether to put this story under the 300 mph bullet train thread or this one. Here's more breaking Chinese infrastructure, this time before it's even been completed -- a tunnel intended for high speed rail. Fortunately, all the workers survived.
I'm so glad the webcunt didn't send this to the memory hole.
This is just the beginning.
As Sean Corrigan reports---
It's official - everyone's involved! According to the 21st Century Business Herald, at least 17 financial institutions involved in copper, aluminum and other nonferrous metals financing business face losses of almost 15 billion Yuan (not including the contagious rehypothecated collateral chains involved)due to the over-invoicing of the Qingdao port. Crucially, it appears that the evaporation of collateral (i.e. multiple loans secured by the same collateral) has been confirmed officially and banks such as Standard Chartered have already ceased any new business via this supposedly secured channel.
Via Caijing (via Google Translate),
According to the 21st Century Business Herald, Qingdao, where at least 17 banks involved in copper, aluminum and other nonferrous metals financing business, which 17 banks, including China Eximbank, the establishment of diplomatic five rows of workers and peasants, China, Minsheng, Industrial, Investment, CITIC five medium-sized banks, also includes Prudential, Qilu, Rizhao, Weihai, Weifang, Shandong and other local financial institutions, coupled with a remote city in Hebei banking firm.
Informed sources said 17 financial institutions involved in the financing amount Qingdao Port trade finance business in non-ferrous metals 14.8 billion yuan from top to bottom, including single-family Eximbank in 4 billion and down, accusing him of involving an amount of more than 1 billion are down.
At the end of the first quarter of 2014, the outstanding loans in foreign currencies, Qingdao 998.46 billion, of which the balance of the manufacturing sector was 228.53 billion; 15 billion equivalent to 1.5% of total outstanding loans to local financial institutions, manufacturing 6.5% of the loan balance .
Qingdao Port nonferrous metals repercussions in the financial institutions financing fraud also caused the divergence. Next, the bank is bound to tighten credit financing, a thorough investigation of existing financing facilities of collateral, which will further exacerbate the bad debt exposure process.
As early as the end of April, the CBRC supervision quarterly meeting, the China Banking Regulatory Commission had warning, "the steel industry trade violations financing model has been copied to sign the copper, coal, iron ore, soybeans and other commodities trade finance field."
Commodity trade finance risks for the first time and industries with excess capacity, and real estate financing platform tied to become the focus of regulatory agencies in the field of credit risk prevention.
For a number of foreign banks involved in financing scam Qingdao Port nonferrous metals foreign banks, including Standard Chartered Bank, had previously announced a halt for some Chinese metal financing business from new customers.
The effects are already clear in Copper and Iron Ore prices.. next we see if the physical gold bid re-appears as CCFD unwinds continue and crediot contracts for all but the most creditworthy names in China (and there's not many of them left).
And now we're buying food from them, something I never thought would happen. So, you have to scrutinize every single thing you buy to eat for those three scary words.
Before I do an "info dump" I should inform the new readers that the majority of posters were Marxist or Socialist or Communist or Fascist, and they truly believed that the government could direct the construction of 100 million homes and condos, build roads to nowhere, erect dams that would provide power to millions of illusory people, and use central planning to create a "New China".
They were ignorant of economics, which proves that formation of capital and individual entrepreneurial action then creates wealth, so they built empty cities that are rotting and dying. Now that wasted money is sitting on the books of local banks, and they have no way to repay it, so they used even shadier loans to CYA.
As a communist country with no property rights, the soil, water and air is filled with dangerous shit- mercury, lead, etc.
If China had a system for respecting property rights and control of land and water rights then this shit would NEVER happen.
Perhaps I should explain simply, in words even the most simple-minded 8th grader can understand.
In China (and in S.Africa, the EU, and the USA, etc.) the government allows banks to "rehypothicate".
If I have a ton of copper and I ship it to China and store it in a warehouse with bank A. I then get a "note" proving those assets. I sell that note, at 90% of value and take that cash.
Now, that bank has my collateral and can use it to write ANOTHER loan, based on that copper to purchase MORE copper from bank B. Then bank C, bank D, bank X, R, Q, and Z suddenly all have claims, mixed and matched and twisted but ALL BASED ON THAT ONE TON OF COPPER. On paper there are dozens of tons of copper- in reality, there is just one single ton.
Now, extrapolate that by a few hundred million tons...you can see why China is about to implode...unless the USA and EU keep bailing them out.
Thank GOD the gold and silver markets require 100% backing of paper assets...wait, WHAT? My paper gold is only worth 1/2000th face value!?! WTF!
Here is one---
Remember how small Greece was and how it wasn't relevant to US stocks... until suddenly it got close to breaking up the EU and the world's markets slumped. Remember how small subprime was? Remember how Lehman was not a 'big' bank? We hear the same "why would that impact us?" chatter now about the China rehypothecation scandal and we suspect the outcome will be just as dramatic a "whocouldanode" moment for many. The problem, as this chart so simply explains, is "more warrants than the volume of the underlying physical commodities have been issued in the repo business" and that is a problem for every foreign bank that was tempted into China's carry trade (which is "every" bank).
Simply put - the collateral that I promised you on my loan... I also promised to between 10 and 30 other people... but we're good right?
The “repo” business in commodities in China is similar to any other “repo” business in the financial markets. Generally speaking, the repo is a short-term FX funding vehicle, whereby a commodity owner first sells the commodity warrants issued by bonded warehouses (paired with an equal amount of short positions) to banks, then buys the package back from the banks in 3 to 6 months. It is a way for commodity traders/refiners to gain access to foreign banks’ balance sheets and improve liquidity efficiently.
The Qingdao situation alleges the issuance and pledging of more warrants than the underlying physical commodity. Were this to have occurred, foreign banks may be exposed to asset write-offs due to potential collateral shortages and/or losses. As a result, some foreign banks may have reduced or suspended their commodities repo business in China, and could be undertaking further investigation as to whether to make any suspension permanent.
While we have warned about the problem with near-infinitely rehypothecated physical/funding commodities/metals, be they gold or copper, many times in the past, and most recently here, it was onlythis week that China finally admitted it has a major problem involving not just the commodities participating in funding deals - in this case copper and aluminum - but specifically their infinite rehypothecation, which usually results in the actual underlying metal mysteriously "disappearing", as in it never was there to begin with. It would appear our fears of global contagion (through various transmission channels) are now coming true as WSJ reports that as many as a half-dozen banks are trying to determine whether the collateral for loans they made to commodities traders was used fraudulently by a third party to obtain other loans.As we detailed previously, it appears the day when the Commodity Funding Deals finally end is fast approaching... and as we note below, why that will certainly be a watershed event.
As we warned would happen, The Wall Street Journal reports that as many as a half-dozen banks are trying to determine whether the collateral for loans they made to commodities traders was used fraudulently by a third party to obtain other loans, according to people with knowledge of the matter.
The banks, including Citigroup Inc. and Standard Chartered, provided loans to trading firms that were backed by metals such as copper and aluminum stored at one of China's biggest ports, the people said. The trading firms hold the deed to the metal, which can be used to secure financing, but the metal stays in a warehouse. Banks fear a private Chinese company may have used the metal as collateral to get multiple loans, potentially defrauding the lenders and trading firms.
Two of the people with knowledge of the matter estimated the value of the loans and collateral at several hundred million dollars.
The banks are frustrated because theyhaven't been able to get access to the collateral, the people said.
The metals are stored at Qingdao Port, which administers the warehouses.
An executive at one of the banks said thetitle documents from the warehouses may have been photocopied and used to secure the loans.
The vicious cycle has begun...
The fear in the copper market is that banks will become more cautious about allowing metal to be used as collateral.
Many traders and analysts believe a significant amount of China's metal imports are used for this purpose.
China is the world's top copper consumer, so anything that threatens imports can send shock waves through the metals market.
Copper prices have fallen 4% in the past four days after media reports on the potential fraud. In March, prices fell nearly 10% amid worries the Chinese government was preparing to crack down on copper-backed loans.
On Friday, copper for June delivery, the front-month contract, fell 3.8 cents, or 1.2%, to $3.0530 a pound, on the Comex division of the New York Mercantile Exchange.
The potential fraud raises questions about the integrity of commodities warehouses in China, one of the world's largest users of commodities, and how trading is financed.
There has been concern among policy makers that commodities in China are being used to get financing for cash-strapped companies. As credit tightens and the nation's economy slows, some investors worry that the commodities will be dumped onto the market as banks seize collateral, potentially knocking down prices.
There is also concern that demand in China will
collapse because so much of the metal had been stockpiled in warehouses.
This is not just a Chinese banking system issue anymore as major Western banks and trading shops are now directly affected... and are scrambling...
Two of the trading houses that may be exposed to the possible fraud are Geneva-based Mercuria Energy Group Ltd., which mostly trades oil, energy products and industrial commodities, and Glencore PLC, the Switzerland-based mining and trading company, according to people familiar with the matter.
Mercuria, which in March agreed to buy the physical commodities business of J.P. Morgan Chase & Co., didn't respond to requests for comment. A Glencore official declined to comment.
In addition to Citigroup and Standard Chartered, the banks potentially affected include ABN Amro Bank NV, BNP Paribas SA, Natixis and Standard Bank PLC, the people familiar with the matter said.
Standard Bank said it is investigating "potential irregularities at the port at this time and will be working with the local authorities as part of its investigations." The bank said it couldn't quantify any potential loss.
ABN and BNP declined to comment. Natixis didn't respond to a request for comment.
As we detailed previously, it appears the day when the Commodity Funding Deals finally end is fast approaching.
Here is Goldman's take on what will certainly be a watershed event - one which will certainly dwarf the recent Chaori Solar default in its significance and scale.
Financing deal concerns mounting as CNY volatility rises
Concerns on an unwind of commodity financing deals trigger selloff
The recent sell-off in copper and iron ore prices reflects the market’s ongoing concerns regarding the impact of a potential unwind of Chinese commodity financing deals, though the weak underlying market fundamentals should not be discounted. The concerns intensified following the recent CNY depreciation which has raised uncertainty regarding the profitability of the deals and the impact on different asset classes were they to unwind. Up to 1mt of copper and 30mt of iron ore could be released were the deals to unwind, which would be bearish given the relatively limited physical liquidity to absorb the shock.
CCFDs are facilitating China’s total credit growth
We believe CCFDs are ongoing and facilitating ‘hot money’ inflows into China by providing a mechanism to import low-cost foreign financing. In general, the profitability of most hedged commodity financing deals remains substantial (iron ore is the exception), due to a still positive CNY and USD interest rate differential, limited depreciation in the CNY forward curve and available commodity supply. In 2013, ‘hot money’ accounted for c. 42% of the growth in China’s monetary base of which we estimate that CCFDs contributed US$81-160 bn or c.31% of China’s total FX short-term loans. Given this, it is crucial for the government to manage the immediate impact of ‘hot money’ flow changes on the economy and markets.
It's the same human flaw that makes Pyramid schemes work. We had a good one in Hawaii about 25 years ago, and the banks could hardly keep up with flying in the cash. Of course, everybody lost everything, except ..
More commodities are used; a medium-term unwind is bearish
An increasing range of commodities are being used to raise foreign financing, which now includes iron ore, soybeans, palm oil, rubber, zinc, and aluminum, as well as gold, copper, and nickel. CCFDs create excess physical demand and tighten the physical markets artificially; in contrast, an unwind creates excess supply and thus is bearish to prices. We think CCFDs will be unwound over the medium term, mainly triggered by an increase in Chinese FX volatility, as indicated by recent CNY depreciation and PBOC’s latest move to widen the daily trading band. FX volatility could result in a higher cost of currency hedging, effectively closing the interest rate arbitrage. Higher US rates are another likely catalyst for an unwind in the long run. A continuous CNY depreciation in the short term, however, would trigger some deals to be unwound sooner than expected, and hence place downside risks to our short-term commodity price forecasts.
It should now become apparent why the ongoing sharp devaluation of the CNY, far more than merely impacting a few massively levered speculators, and recall that the European Knock In point of maximum vega is about USDCNY 6.20 as discussed previously, will have a far more broad hit to asset levels not just in China but across the world if and when the inevitable moment of CCFD unwind finally begins, and in a reflexive fashion, initial selling begets more selling, more CNY devaluation, greater margin calls, further CCFD unwinds, and so on, until finally the PBOC has no choice but to come in and bail out the financial system one more time.
For those unfamiliar with the concept of CCFD, and too lazy to read our previous article on the topic, here is Goldman's Roger Yuan with a succinct summary of just why these key component of China's shadow funding mechanism are so important on the way up... and down.
Only the politically connected win. The lowly servants just get by.
Our government is corrupt and evil, and we need to split the country into 50 separate states and return Washington DC to swampland.
At least the "China is fine and the USA is recovering really really REALLY SOON" fuckwits have been silent.
Copper, Iron Ore, Rebar, Rubber, and now Cotton are all at multi-year lows as the Qingdao CCFD ponzi probe continues to broaden to all the commodities we warned about previously. As CottonCN reports, the probe's increased uncertainty and scrutiny of shipments may hurt imports of of cotton in the form of consignment sales, as international traders delay shipments or deliveries to wait for clear policies as authorities continues their investigation. Even soybeans and palm oil have been on a notably downswing since the probe intothe collateral evaporation started. Then comes the news that Chinese commodities trading firm CITIC admission that over half of its 220,000 tonnes of alumina are missing. This is far from over...
Another area of damage to the US is in academia and the professions. We won't recover as a nation until the presence and effects of ""Tiger Kids" is eradicated.
Ecological disasters alone will crush China.
That and the horrific social unrest in the next few years.
And that won't hurt Europe and US?
The Chinese food import thing really scares me.
All of it will have serious repercussions
What is worse is that the geography of China makes it arid. It needs trillions of gallons of water each year.
Maybe if the government didn't shut down, inhibit or handicap desalination technology it wouldn't be a problem.
Racist fucker at R169-
Why attack smart Asian children, calling them "tiger children", when what we NEED is smart people, not ignorant infantile "white kids" who think the government owes them something.
They are not smart r175 -- they cheat and see their professions as merely a means to an end.
I agree with you R175 except for your misrepresentations.
In one of the most comprehensive studies ever conducted of China’s bubblicious property market, Professor Gan Li at Texas A&M University estimates that there are a whopping 49 million vacant homes in China right now.
As a percentage, this is twice the vacancy rate that the US housing market experienced at the peak of its recent bubble… suggesting that China has a rather painful housing collapse in store.
This should be a brutal blow to the economy given that housing comprised 15% of GDP last year. And the slowdown is already apparent.
In fact, China’s president Xi Jinping uncharacteristically announced a ‘new normal’ recently, declaring the heady days of 10% GDP growth to be over. His vision of China is moderate growth and less stimulus.
But I’ve identified a far greater problem for China… one that few people are talking about. And frankly I’m not sure they can fix it.
We discussed earlier that China does not have the capacity to feed itself. By the estimates of one state official, the country’s agricultural imports require more land to grow than the entire land mass of California.
The reasons are simple. For one, China doesn’t have enough fertile land in production to support its population’s growing food demand.
Theoretically this is fixable. With a bit of time, patience, and technology, barren soil can be rehabilitated In other words, China doesn’t have enough enough productive land capacity to support its population.
But the far greater issue is China’s massive freshwater deficiency.
Chief Economist Qian Keming of China’s Agriculture Ministry summed it up by telling the audience at the Third China International Agribusiness Forum:
“Fresh water resources are only 2100 cubic meters per capita, which is only 28% of the world’s average level.”
“The shortage of [water for agricultural irrigation] each year is about 30 billion cubic meters. China imported about 148.6 billion cubic meters of water in 2013, which was equivalent to 38% of China’s agricultural water.”
Here’s that number in perspective: China water imports of 148.6 billion cubic meters last year handily exceeded the 569 MILLION (0.569 billion) cubic meters of oil that the United States imported.
Submitted by Simon Black of Sovereign Man blog,
Water is THE critical resource in agriculture.Without it, you’re not producing. This makes China’s deficiency a long-term headwind to their food production dilemma.
It’s not something they can import their way out of either, because all of this comes at a time of flat (and even declining) yields, particularly from the world’s largest food exporter… which just happens to be the United States of America.
After decades of growth, grain yields in the US have topped out. Farmers have managed to extract all that the earth is capable of providing.
Many developing markets are no help either. Most people don’t realize that Africa, despite its legendary agricultural potential, is actually a net importer of food.
So between the supply constraints and the constantly growing demand, it’s clear where this trend is going.
The BEST possible scenario to unfold is rising food prices. The worst case could be shortages.
All of this is potentially destabilizing. History shows that while human beings will put up with a lot of sacrifices at the behest of their governments, starvation is not one of them.
This approaching ‘food crunch’ is the reason why agriculture is THE investment for the next decade and beyond.
But more importantly, it’s another gigantic nail in the coffin for the status quo. And there are plenty more.
Nearly every ‘developed’ western nation is bankrupt. Most major central banks are insolvent… and they’ve created bubbles everywhere. The century-old monetary experiment is starting to draw to a hasty, inevitable conclusion.
Meanwhile apathy is at high tide. You can see it in voting booths and streetside revolutions around the world– people are sick and tired of the status quo… of thieving politicians… of war… of getting spied on… of being told what they can/cannot put in their bodies.
They’re finally now starting to wake up and demand real changes– not just changing the players in charge, but changing the game itself.
Politicians will fight with every resource they have to maintain the status quo. But in conjunction with the fundamentals of food, the confluence of all these forces together is more than any system can possibly withstand.
It might not be today. It might not be this decade. But at some point in our future, there will be a complete reset in the way society organizes and governs itself.
Just make sure you’re wearing your seat belt.
At least 50 more cases of "infinitely rehypothicated" copper collateral have come to light.
China has put a total lockdown on reports. (How very libertarian of them)
Big banks are struggling to verify actual actionable collateral claims, and The Party Leaders are shitting their commie shorts.
The big banks are imposing "quiet" withdrawal limits.
In other words, they violated the principle tenets of libertarianism.
Now, why do you shitheads still worship government power?
:Young Li wants to emigrate to the United States,
The leader asks him: “Are you unsatisfied with your wages?”
Young Li says: “I am satisfied.”
“Are you unsatisfied with your housing?”
“So are you unsatisfied with the internet environment?”
“Satisfied with health care, education, and all that?”
“Since you are satisfied with all of these things, why do you still want to emigrate?”
“Because not being satisfied is allowed there!”