First of all, Jindal (LA) and Scott (FL) are spineless assholes, and will do whatever their instincts say is right for the moment.
But, they are starting a movement. A lot of southern states will follow, and soon other challenges will be afoot.
Could this be the start of a major split?
Talking about a revolution...
Please, let them go.
This time around, if the South wants to secede, let's let them do it!
The right wing is dwindling. They see power slipping between their fingers and it's driving them crazy. For some, the only way forward is armed insurrection.
It will die down the moment these ignorant shitheads realize they're benefitting from the new program.
Oh no, red states! Please stay and continue to be a pox on the rest of country!
We need you to stay and continue to dictate the direction of the country as you pay less than the rest of us and get back more!
We need you to lie about how self-sufficient you are as you scream about us liberals with our hands out!
Oh please stay!
Let them secede and we can build a wall to keep them out.
One day people will affectionately refer to their all-encompassing single-payer national health service as "Obamacare."
So, which states should go? Florida, Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, Georgia, South Carolina? (Although I'd hate to lose Savannah and Charleston).
We really need to get rid of Arizona, Utah and Idaho, too, but they're not the south. Do we want Kentucky or Kansas?
Judging by some of the comments in the cyberealm it seems to me (and this is just me using my most unique talent- one shared by only 1%...I'll tell you if you ask) that Roberts has fomented CW2.0
Diehard Reps are PISSED. Scott & Jindal are publicly vowing non-compliance. Many other governors will be pressed, and open revolt will face those who fail to follow their constituents (serfs) in rebellion.
Will Obama (or Romney) move tanks force them? At this point it looks like it might be necessary. Such sentiment doesn't dissipate in 18 months (2014, when ACA takes effect) it only breaks new ground and sews more seeds- amongst liberals who see that the law favors big companies and conservatives that see it as a final straw- for real change.
No, Obamacare is not starting a civil war.
Racist ass hat tea baggers are doing everything they can to incite a civil war and Obamacare is their cause du jour.
Can we designate cities that we can keep? Like they did with Berlin during the cold war? We can build walls around Austin, Savannah and Key West?
Every one you mentioned should be gone.
We can have diplomatic relations with some of their more progressive cities if they'd like.
We would be a stronger country without the south. Let this happen.
Oh, that's a good idea, r12. What about Miami Beach, too? There are so many slutty boys there.
It's all just overblown political rhetoric. The Federal government sets up the exchange if the state government doesn't do it. If this happens the Governor will have a lot less control over how this is done. This is all a giant bluff & a hope for them that Romney becomes president.
In the mean time, all it will take is a big puff of wind, ie a hurricane, a tornado or two, to have them come begging the federal government to step in & help their poorly run state. They'll come crawling back.
Every time Jindal talks this nonsense, someone should hold up a picture of the disaster that was Hurricane Katrina to show how self functioning they're not.
R5 is 100% spot-on, and both of those creepy governors are simply "auditioning" for the VP spot, which is in vain, since neither would ever be selected by Romney.
Ditto for Chris Christie.
The game is afoot.
I agree that these republican politicians could have cared less how this supreme court ruled. It's all about getting the faux news crowd in an uproar so they'll vote for them.
I'm in Mississippi. Lived almost my whole life here. I thought, in the 70's, it was getting better, but the right-wing radio started, then Fox News, and it's regressed, imo, significantly in the last 40 years, and it's getting worse by the minute.
I'm stuck now, due to financial reasons, but I wish the red states would secede and create the theocracy that 90% of them seem to want - well, the percentage of white people in my state who want that would be about 90% if not a bit more.
In a wildly utopian and unrealistic sense, what I'd really love: So many Southerners believe in the Bible literally, I wish the U.S. would give Israel Mississippi and Alabama, let them take over the territory and improve it, and give Palestine back to the Arabs.
Yes I agree it's getting worse and now its rubbing off on dumb people. They can't get enough... Rush at lunch, Fox all night, the south is think with it.
Brainwashed, the lot.
R9, Florida sometimes votes Democratic, so perhaps we should keep it. Texas may be winnable for the Dems in another decade once the Latino population becomes the majority, and the same goes for Arizona.
There are probably a lot of factors, but a major one was the eradication of the "equal time" rule which happened under that bastard Reagan. You couldn't have had a Fox News before the 1980's because gov't regulation wouldn't have allowed one-sided politics 24/7 on any network.
You 'mos are so funny. Did you ever read a history book. This "disagreement is nothing compared to the 50s and 60s, with the integration and desegregation movements.
We had actual riots all over the country.
Stop your chicken little calling and go back to your bars, and temples and massage parlors
We damned near seceded when President Madison invaded Canada in 1812. Force us to it, and we'll do it.
States finding a way to pull out of Obamacare will not unravel the United States. There are already big differences in benefits between the states. People will move to where it suits them.
Praise the Lord I live in California!
We frankly couldn't get so lucky as the South seceding. They can have Jesus-land. I demand, however, we build a wall, enforce immigration to the maximum, and everyone gets once chance. Leave the Progressive Coalition and you can never return (to live, but you're welcome to come for a visit and drop lots of cash). Immigrants from Jesus-land can enter on a one-time basis, but will have to pay an amount equal to the taxes they would have paid all along, with no credit for taxes or tithe paid to Pastor-in-chief. We get Washington, Oregon, New York and New England, Illinois, Wisconsin, maybe a few more states that are willing. They can have the swamp that is Florida, the South, Alaska and the rest of the fly-over states. They can build their stupid XL pipeline, but when it bursts and contaminates the Nebraska aquifer, they are on their own and that includes no diversion of water resources. And obviously, they can have Texas with access to the Gulf, but when there's another oil spill, they are once again on their own. We'll have to conserve energy until we can build out the solar and wind grid, but in 20 years we could be energy independent and no longer slave to the Middle East oil kingdoms. With all of the money we no longer send to these backward-thinking states, we could rebuild our educational system, roads and infrastructure, and have enough left to start work on high-speed rail for both the Northeast corridor and the West coast, eventually stretching out to the enclave in the mid-West. Obviously we could sell transportation access to Jesus-land in exchange for the real estate, but we own it and set the fare, and they will have pay enough to subsidize the entire system - sort of reverse of the way this country is run today.
Yeah, I've thought about this.
Just another red state vs. blue state issue. If the red states want to go, c'ya!
Jindal needed federal funds to help clean up his state from oil damage. Despite his rhetoric in the state of the union response that states can take care of themselves. Louisiana needed the federal government both during Katrina & BP oil spill.
He cut the state task force responsible for oil clean ups before the spill. Their game plan in case of a spill was "TBD"
17 out of 50 state pay more in federal taxes than they take, 13 of them are blue states, 3 of them swing states, the lone red state is Texas. The south couldn't survive leaving the union. Texas in particular is reliant on oil subsidies and military jobs doled out by the federal govt to stay afloat.
Why can't the red states prove they can manage spending by getting their shit together on the state level? Reagan and both Bushes prove they can't when they are running the federal govt.
F&F for r24 (the 'mos troll). Time for that bitch to go.
Hmmmm I wonder what their attitude will be when they figure out they have the vast majority of the poor people they hate so much and we have all the $$$.
Remind them that whenever there's some crisis thanks to some force of nature (hurricane, earthquate, wildfire, etc.) they need to ask for help from the same guys they now bitch and moan about. Either they stay consistent and not ask for help (and pray to their god or trust in their rich overlords like the Koch Bros. to help them) when in need or shut up for good.
One of the funniest/saddest pictures I saw last week was of a protester at the Supreme Court holding up a sign reading "NO GOVERNMENT HEALTHCARE" and it was being held by a woman who had to be at least 80. I guess she doesn't get Medicare.
r28, don't forget PA. The north gets PA too, the same state that gave birth to America.
If the North and the South were to split, the North would still have all of America's history, too.
The time for a long overdue education drive in the South is really now. These people are reacting to something that just happened. They've been primed for years to believe what is not true. It's a reflex.
To completely reeducate them will take a generation or two. But what needs to happen is for the people to understand that their elected officials are acting against their interests. I would start by running commercials in these states in 2014, showing them the people who are better off.
Millions of people in these states will be harmed in very concrete, tangible ways if their governors opt out. But when you realize Mississippi was the last state to ratify public education back in the 1960's it's understandable. This has nothing to do with healthcare and everything to do with racism.
[quote]Stop your chicken little calling and go back to your bars, and temples and massage parlors
Is this a line from One Night in Bangkok?
I agree with R32. Bitch needs to go already.
[quote] Could this be the start of a major split?
We can only hope. Let all of the shitstain southern states secede. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
If it does, someone is going to have to buy me a gun.
Blue Dog Democrates should be shot on sight.
I'm sure there will be disagreement amongst those who live in blue states even if we do separate from the red states.
I believe in gun ownership (even though I don't own one myself), but I do not believe in stockpiling, nor allowing sale of high-powered weapons. No one needs "cop killer" bullets or a machine gun.
I think we would need a military to protect us from the lunatics in the red states who once they realize they've fucked up by living in their Somalia-style utopia, will come after us for "screwing" them over because they'd never blame themselves for fucking up.
No I think you mean TP'ers should be shot on sight R43/44.
Yes, there will be a Civil War, or revolution, but not centered on Obamacare. The Middle Class is disappearing and once it's gone, in about 20 years, there WILL be a revolution. Whenever you have only two extreme socio-economic classes (rich and poor), revolution inevitably follows.
WTF is with the loud advertisinf that you can't turn off.
If the red states don't want health care, their people will die young.
I don't see a problem with that.
I live in a red state and I agree let them die, except for the children. Children with no healthcare? It breaks my heart.
[quote]Children with no healthcare?
Don't worry, children in red states may be able to get health care through their employers. Red State governer's will abolish child labor laws, in order to proclaim that this is a way to insure every child does get health care.
"If the red states don't want health care, their people will die young."
I see these studies that purport to show that liberally mined people are more intelligent than conservative types, then I wonder if R50 is typical.
So, because these red staters (or at least 50%+1) don't want even more bureaucratic interference in health care, sudduenly it equals not wanting any health care at all.
It looks like his gun grab will be the starter.
“People don’t need an important issue to fight about. They’ll take anything available and inflate it to the size they need.”
(1634: The Ram Rebellion, p. 368 by Eric Flint)
Republicans and conservative Americans are still fighting Big Government in its welfare state form. Apparently, they have never heard of the militarized police state form of Big Government, or, if they have, they are comfortable with it and have no objection.
Republicans, including those in the House and Senate, are content for big government to initiate wars without a declaration of war or even Congress’ assent, and to murder with drones citizens of countries with which Washington is not at war. Republicans do not mind that federal “security” agencies spy on American citizens without warrants and record every email, Internet site visited, Facebook posting, cell phone call, and credit card purchase. Republicans in Congress even voted to fund the massive structure in Utah in which this information is stored.
But heaven forbid that big government should do anything for a poor person.
Republicans have been fighting Social Security ever since President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed it into law in the 1930s, and they have been fighting Medicare ever since President Lyndon Johnson signed it into law in 1965 as part of the Great Society initiatives.
Conservatives accuse liberals of the “institutionalization of compassion.” Writing in the February, 2013, issue of Chronicles, John C. Seiler, Jr., damns Johnson’s Great Society as “a major force in turning a country that still enjoyed a modicum of republican liberty into the centralized, bureaucratized, degenerate, and bankrupt state we endure today.”
It doesn’t occur to conservatives that in Europe democracy, liberty, welfare, rich people, and national health services all coexist, but that somehow American liberty is so fragile that it is overturned by a limited health program only available to the elderly.
Neither does it occur to conservative Republicans that it is far better to institutionalize compassion than to institutionalize tyranny.
Nonsense R57. The only thing sinking the economy now is Republican terrorists in business who think that a capital strike can win them control of the nation. Instead, it should earn them a one-way ticket to the electric chair.
I think there will be another Waco or something similar in this term.
We need root and branch corporate reform and an end to the culture of secrecy on Wall Street. There is no economic purpose to corporate secrecy or corporations owning shares in other corporations. The only reasons are tax fraud and to hide ownership, both of which hurt the economy. It's time to clean house and do a radical reform of corporate governance. Since unions are too weak to be propped up, we need an employee rep on the board of directors voted on by all the employees who has veto power over executive compensation and executive selection.
The smoking penalties in the plan are Draconian, as is to be expected from a closet smoker.
We can only hope the South breaks away and forms their own nation.
As you can see in this thread, the government cannot be reformed.
It must be destroyed.
To destroy government is to destroy democracy. All libtards and freepers hate the people.
No, it won't. People have to accept it because the hospitals will demand they do. And then they will threaten to close.
This is a win/win, as the politicians who oppose it can simply say, "I voted no, and did my best to stop it, but we can't have hospitals close."
It's like Obama voted "no" to the Iraq War while Hillary voted "yes" and that destroyed her.
I have a theory the Repugs were on board with their boy Obama all along, but have to appear anti to appease their right wing constituents.
It's not ObamaCare that's starting a new Civil War. It's the misinformation and Lies of the right-wing Media and propaganda factories like FOX News.
In a december poll, Scott only had a 35% approcal rating with 50% of republicans saying they wanted an alternative republican candidate in the next election. If we had a recall procedure in our constitution he would already be gone.
Health care may sink us, but not Obamacare itself. Obamacare actually goes a little distance toward ameliorating the problem of rising health care costs. But much remains to be done to stem the underlying problem.
(For my Southern readers, "ameliorate" means that it lessens the problem. We pay too much for health care now, and get back much less than most other nations.)
(For my Northern writer, you don't need a comma when a dependent clause follows a conjunction.)
Arrogant northerners are too dumb to see how their worship of government is destroying the bottom 99% while enriching the top 1%.
No, because this time nobody will fight to keep the bigots in the Union.
Honey we been in a state of revolution since Bill Clinton. They are just getting more & more extreme. I don't understnad these people. They get elected to public office to represent the interests of the people, to serve the people and then they shit all over the people. How despicable are these states who want to withhold necessary services and medical care to the poor and the vulnerable just because they hate Obama.
R71, it's the opposite. It's deregulation and weakening of government that is impoverishing the 99% and enriching the 1% ... leading to a corporate plutocracy.
What you're seeing is the culture of white, straight, male privilege backed into a corner and fighting for its life.
That's why Republicans are so strong n the South, the home of such bigotry.
I probably will be needing insurance in 2014. How "affordable" is it going to be? That is my biggest fear. Will a person be able to affrord it. What percentage of your income is it going to cost.
Scott has to be careful. Crist is very popular in the polls and it looks like Scott won't get a second term.
Wek=ll, shit, R77. I sincerely hope FLA can get rid of Scott and all the other obstructionists. If there's anything I can do please let me know. I hate that rat bastard.
Amazingly, Arizona is an exception. Damnable socialists, we are.
Voters approved a Medicaid extension to the working poor in 2001. This was financed mostly by large class action lawsuit tobacco company settlements, and allowed counties to set up free and low cost clinics...which also helped keep costs down for AHCCCS, the state administered Medicaid.
Jan Brewer disqualified many recipients when she became Gov, but the law remains on the books.
Faced with the law, Jan has become a major booster of Obamacare's Medicaid extension. She is successfully selling hospitals and docs on a small 'provider tax', which is intended to make up the state's contribution in coming years.
It's pretty sensible stuff, given Jan's history and the utter craziness of this place. Hopefully the nutzo states will take note of this. After all, lives are on the line.
Yes. I don't know why you interject race. The question is simple. Conservatives will try but fail imo to repeal. The final resort may be secession, which I doubt the federal govt would peaceably allow. Judging by the anti-Christian sentiment of progressives it'd be easy to see constitutionalists losing and persecution of christians unfolding.
Interesting that this thread was started so long ago, yet in the interim the GOP has offered no alternative plans to the ACA. They just scream NO! like a bunch of two year olds.
...and are still behaving like children....
Its easy, let the free market establish real prices. Cut bureaucracy which is driving up admin costs. Plus the medical association limits the number of doctors to keep their wages high. Obamacare is the result of continual self inflicted wounds on the medical system. ACA is a tool from the admin (top down) to get a response from the citizens (bottom up) so that free loaders can find a justifiable reason to fight against their fellow americans (inside out)
Never knew there were so many ignorant people out there?? I can't believe what I'm reading on this site! On a positive note, at least we are finally on the same page as far as the South succeeding. Yes, the South probably will succeed and will prosper, while what's left of America will continue to decline into oblivion. And as far as you guys "letting" the South "leave", I got news for you! When the South does succeeds what's left of "America" wont have the brass or the ability to do anything about it!
Just don't get mad when you need to borrow money from the new South and we say we told you so!
As has always been, even today the south is receiving more money from the federal government than contributing.
That money comes from us blue states.
So be gone!!
the new south!
what a laugh.
go ahead and secede.
good riddance, racist slave-owner defenders.
[quote]It's not ObamaCare that's starting a new Civil War. It's the misinformation and Lies of the right-wing Media and propaganda factories like FOX News.
Feel kind of silly now R67? Turns out they were right about Obamacare. Sad, but true.
ACA is the Republican plan, they just hate the Black President enough that they want to screw the USA just for spite.
I'm sick of the South and the Bible Belt anyway.
Jindhal is so vindictive he is going to cut food stamps to those involved in the walmart mess. Even though it cost the state nothing. Walmart is on the hook for what they sold that was not covered. The money is Federal money, not his money , not his state's money. His intent is to punish anyone that took advantage of the system as he sees it. Doesn't matter if young children go hungry to this asshole.
Bobbie needs to be weighted and sunk in the swap while alive.
Jindhal-berry is doing nothing to serve his constituents, only his self-serving ideologue mind.
Six counties in northern Colorado got a proposal on last week's election ballot to secede from the US and become "North Colorado", the 51st state.
It hit the ground like a safe.
The elements it takes for a secession to occur don't exist anymore.
I think the US will have a cultural and social civil war(or revolution) before it's all over. The partisanship will destroy this country. I give the US another 30-50 years until we are a third world country
The inmates took over the asylum a long time ago
I would love to have the embarrassing southern states out of the union.
BREAKING: TWO JUDGES ORDER OBAMACARE TO BE DEFUNDED
WASHINGTON (Reuters) – A U.S. federal judicial panel on Tuesday dealt a potentially devastating blow to President Barack Obama’s healthcare law, throwing out a provision that provides millions of Americans with subsidies for private health insurance.
The 2-1 decision, which could lead to a new showdown over Obamacare before the U.S. Supreme Court, would prevent the administration from offering premium tax credits to people who purchase insurance through the federal insurance marketplace that serves most of the 8 million consumers who have signed up for private coverage for 2014.
The judges from the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia stayed the ruling to allow for an appeal. The Obama administration said it would appeal to the full circuit court, a process that could take up to six months, and stressed the ruling would have no impact on consumers receiving monthly subsidies now.
Republican opponents of Obamacare said the decision would help efforts to dismantle the law which the Democratic president signed in 2010.
“Obamacare is a bad deal. I want to see it unravel,” said Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, whose residents receive federal subsidies. “This is a small step in the right direction.”
5 MILLION PEOPLE
Analysts estimate that as many as 5 million people could be affected if subsidies disappear from the federal marketplace, which serves 36 states through the website HealthCare.gov. The subsidies are available to people with annual incomes of up to 400 percent of the federal poverty level, or $94,200 for a family of four.
“Practically, we think it’s very unlikely that the subsidies will actually be pulled back,” said Caroline Pearson, a vice president at consultancy Avalere Health. Further litigation could take a few years even if the case moves up to the Supreme Court, and the administration could find a regulatory workaround, she said.
Plaintiffs in the case, known as Halbig vs. Burwell, claimed that Congress did not intend to provide subsidies through federally operated marketplaces because the Affordable Care Act (ACA) specifies only state-run exchanges as recipients. The plaintiffs were identified as a group of individuals and employers from states that did not establish their own marketplaces.
Most states including Florida and Texas, which have some of the largest uninsured populations, opted to leave the task of operating a marketplace to the federal government.
“The fact is that the legislative record provides little indication one way or the other of congressional intent, but the statutory text does. (It) plainly makes subsidies available only on exchanges established by states. And in the absence of any contrary indications, that text is conclusive evidence of Congress’s intent,” wrote the two judges in the majority, Thomas Griffith and Arthur Randolph, both appointed by Republican presidents.
“To hold otherwise would be to say that enacted legislation, on its own, does not command our respect — an utterly untenable proposition,” their opinion said.
The panel’s dissenting judge Harry Edwards, appointed by Democratic president Jimmy Carter, said the majority’s judgment “defies the will of Congress and the permissible interpretations of the agencies to whom Congress has delegated the authority to interpret and enforce the terms of the ACA.”
Oh, don't bet on it r100.
There will be pitchforks and torches in the streets as not only will this create a massive new group of uninsured, the result will bankrupt hospitals, and make those who still get insurance by their employer have to absorb massive increases which will collapse that as well. The Chamber of Commerce will not allow this dear.
Meanwhile, a second ruling in the federal court of appeals has ruled in favor of the subsidies.
The American people have already bought into the idea that Obamacare is horrible. Now judges are going to come out and strip away portions of it until there's nothing left. Then, Obama will have to cave to a Republican Congress next year over it, making compromises. It's doomed, and now Progressives are calling for Single Payer as a result today. Keep in mind that the American people are giving Congress to Regressives after they shut down the government this year and have done nothing about jobs.
Reuters' headline writers should be canned. ACA is NOT defunded.
Unfortunately, the law was written with the assumption that the states would participate in state exchanges. Because federal exchanges were omitted, the law is pretty screwed, along with millions of people.
Congress could easily fix this. Republicans most certainly won't allow it: the Republican states caused the problem to begin with by forcing federal exchanges in their states.
Evil goes where the GOP grows. And corporations attend church!
There can't be universal health care in this country because we need that trillion dollars for our wars in the Middle East. Sorry, suckers!
R105: There are alot of reasons why we can't have universal single payer healthcare in the US:
Our income taxes would have to go sky high, from the roughly 35% max Fed income tax bracket we have now. We're talking 50-60%, for what would be considered middle class incomes.
And like Europe, taxes on everything else would skyrocket. Think $9/gallon gas, sales tax (the European VAT) of 17-22%, high city, county & state taxes (as in Europe). Like that..
We're a nation of 310 million - setting up a single payer system now, would be next to financially impossible.
If you think the Feds wouldn't completely fuck it up, just look at the 8 million vets allegedly covered by the VA & how well that's worked out & the $100 BILLION-plus lost annually to fraud,waste & mismanagement, from Medicaid & Medicare.
There are likely several million Americans employed by the private healthcare insurance industry, directly or indirectly. What is your plan to re-employ them, once the Feds take over the whole healthcare system?
The AMA & most other powerful components of the American medical establishment, will fight like hell to stop a single payer system.
I sincerely recognize the need to have all Americans have healthcare coverage, but I don't see a total gov't takeover of it as the way to go.
The USA is a declining empire, like the Byzantine.
then r106, why has universal coverage worked well in Canada, most of Europe, NZ and Australia? They are living proof that IT IS POSSIBLE to have universal coverage if we set our minds to it.
The hilarious thing about Obamacare is that it is a conservative plan, based on republican logic, implemented originally by a republican governor. Now, that a black, Democratic president embraced it, made it available nationwide, the republicans shriek like silly children that it's baaaaad!!!
Let's tax the libertarians, e.g. R106.
R108: Because those countries implemented universal healthcare ages ago & their ppl are used to paying very, very high taxes for it.
I always kind of laugh when ppl trot out places like Sweden & how well that all works for them, so why can't America do it?
Sweden has outrageously high taxes vs the US, and has a population of only about 9.5 million, vs our 310 million.
We would have been better trying to do the universal healthcare single payer system under FDR's regime. By now, we'd be fine with it. But I think it would be impossible to implement now & even more impossible to afford.
r111, the cost savings would offset the higher taxes. We waste hundreds of billions per year on inefficiency and duplication of paperwork.
R112: You're saying that the "duplication of paperwork" is why Medicaid & Medicare are losing $100 billion a year? Don't make me laugh.
Maybe by "inefficiency" you really mean "outright fraud & waste". That would be more apt.
r113, how much fraud and waste do the Canadians, Japanese, Europeans, Australians and New Zealanders have in their systems? I'm sure they have some, but not enough that anyone calls the failures. Again, they are living proof that it is possible to have a single-payer system that works well. You and the republicants want to shut down any and all debate on this because you know it will be very popular with voters.
What good are low taxes if you have a five or six-figure medical bill? What good are low taxes if you still have to pay hundred of dollars a month for your health insurance? What good are low taxes if, even with health insurance, you have to pay for a portion of your healthcare?
Exactly, r115. What so many idiot Americans don't realize is that the taxes for universal health care would actually be less money than what they're currently paying for health insurance and hospital/doctor bills that insurance doesn't cover.
I came to the conclusion long ago that this fucking stupid and ignorant country doesn't know what's good for it most of the time, and has to be grabbed by the hair and dragged kicking and screaming into reform and a better quality of life. That's just the way it is.
R114: I don't know how much fraud there is in those systems. I don't live there. But I do know that all of those countries also have private health insurance schemes, which most everyone middle class & above, buys in addition to the universal one. That's a statement on how well, for example, the NHS in the UK works.
r117, look at charts showing the percentage of GDP those countries spend on healthcare compared to the US. There's no comparison. It's 8-10% of most of those countries (even with many people additionally getting private policies). In the US it's more like 16-17%.