- Republicans for the Treasury.
- Marilyn Monroe killed him!
- I know this is a boring answer but lee harvey oswald. There was a abc special a few years ago that disabused everything in oliver stones jfk. Didnt want to think it was oswald alone but he probably did do it. Jfk was a brilliant film but that motherfucker stone through in everything but the kitchen sink to convince people oswald didnt do it. The abc program is very logical and makes perfect sense.
- What a unique thread. I don't think this has ever been discussed in the history of the DL. How did we ever miss this?
- Either Jason or Freddy.
- I'm with r3. I've been to the Texas Book Depository several times and viewed the Zapruder film too many times to count, and it's so obvious to me that he did it.
- The Sirhan Sirhan lawyer William Pepper makes me wonder about JFK in addition to RFK.
Who knows if we'll ever know. I wonder if Jackie knew more, and why she specified that certain records couldn't be released until her kids had died.
- One more time: CIA rogues supported by big business money, using some mob talent (already connected), and enabled in the end by FBI complacency and de facto collaboration. In the end it was considered in the best interest of the country not to expose anything. The entire Oswald/Soviet/Cuban connection was an attempt by the CIA branch to start major trouble internationally, and that needed to be squelched. The mob had the goods on Hoover at the FBI, and he continued his pattern of protection in order to safeguard himself and to enable a better regime to come in for him - he loathed the Kennedys. The mob was paying Kennedy - and Robert - back, period. The Kennedys had been in their pocket and reneged, and enough was enough. The mob took the steps they did because it had the hallmarks of an almost internal hit - Joe knew it.
Johnson's personal involvement - his awareness of the planned sanction at least - is likely.
Ignore the "Oswald alone, it's been proven" claims. They are the result of subterfuge and latter-day attempt to close the record. Oswald was involved but there were multiple shooters, and he was the designated patsy, as he realized and stated.
- Gurl, bye.
- He pissed off the power elite. All Presidents started to back down after JFKs murder. This is why nobody stands up to Wall Street or the CEOs today.
Clinton even said that there were 2 Governments running America, while he was in office.
- We established this years ago: it was a huge conspiracy of wealthy Texas hosuewives with important hair.
Nellie Connolly was their plant, and her famous comment in the limo--"Mr. President, you sure can't say Dallas doesn't love you!"--was the kill signal for all the blue-haired women in pearls with high-powered rifles stationed behind the grassy knoll.
- Gale Harold's career must have been involved. It ruins everything.
- where did Clinton say that, r10?
- I've heard the Mob blamed, but no one ever mentions the huge grudge the Cuban expatriates had against Kennedy.
Also, not enough is known about Jack Ruby except for his intrusion.
- Lee Harvey Oswald. No conspiracy.
Boring but true.
And 9/11 was the work of the al-Qaeda hijackers.
Occam's razor, folks.
- Except ... Occam's razor can't explain the bullet path through Connally.
And the al-Qaeda hijackers can't explain freefall speed. Or maybe they can, if anyone was allowed to talk about it without being shamed/mocked into silence.
- At its most simple level, if it was only Oswald, why the cover up and refusal to release the documents from that time? What are they hiding?
- [quote]Except ... Occam's razor can't explain the bullet path through Connally.
Well, actually it did. They showed an angle at which he was slumped that could account for all his wounds from one highpowered rifle shot. He was shot by Oswald's gun: Occam's razor.
- R15, please do not embarrass yourself or insult us by misusing Occam's razor, which is not intended to be applied against the availability of evidence. Your adding "folks" after your invocation transforms things from a common misuse to an insufferably smug rhetorical cow patty.
- Occam's Razor dictates that an object flying back and to the left has been struck from in front and to its right.
Occam's Razor suggests that if three skyscrapers come down in the precise manner of a controlled demolition then all three were subjected to a controlled demolition.
- "Political parties exist to secure responsible government and to execute the will of the people. From these great tasks both of the old parties have turned aside. Instead of instruments to promote the general welfare they have become the tools of corrupt interests, which use them impartially to serve their selfish purposes. Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics, is the first task of the statesmanship of the day."
- That quote is from Teddy Roosevelt. I wanted to illustrate that the notion of a second government is not exactly new, then screwed it up by forgetting the attribution.
- Nothing is as it seems. All the strings are being pulled by functionaries of the vast international conspiracy. Don't believe the official explanation of anything. They're all liars. And conspirators. And they're spying on all of us. So you'd best not slip up and let anything betray your guilt. I won't even swat at that fly crawling on me--so they'll know I don't have a violent bone in my body. He wouldn't even harm a fly, they'll say....
- A good graphic for figuring out who's likely right: a conspiracy theorist or his opposition.
- It was the bankers of the Fed.
JFK had just signed an executive order taking the Fed back from the bankers and putting it back in the government's hands where it belongs (and originally started).
LBJ, upon being sworn in that night, signed an executive order reversing JFKs.
- It has always been so odd to me how people have always referenced this tragedy so casualy and matter of factly. DL aside, nobody ever seems to realize how horrible that must of been to have a politician killed. Thats just so terrible to me.
- The FED angle is bullshit.
I think the CIA angle has something to it. And I think they brought down Nixon too. Google E. Howard Hunt y'all.
But whenever I hear someone talk about JFK conspiracy theories I immediately recall this sketch from Almost Live! that is a JFK conspiracy game show.
- [quote]The mob took the steps they did because it had the hallmarks of an almost internal hit - Joe knew it.
By this time he had suffered a debilitating stroke. How much could he have known?
- R8 is closest to the truth. That's about it. I don't think it wassome "vast conspiracy." I think rogue elements attached to the CIA, the Mob, and some thwarted Bay of Pigs Cubans made it happen. All these elements converged into a perfect storm to make a mob hit/revenge killing look like a political assasination.
We want to attache greater significance to such a horrific event, but in the end it was all traceable to Kennedy arrogance, hubris, starting with Joe's insistence on Giancana helping JFK get the unions on board for the primaries and the general election.
When I look at it from today's perspective, I am truly amazed at Jackie. Her Secret Service guy, Clint Hill was promoting his book a couple months ago, and it's really a miracle she wasn't hit. Talk about Post traumatic stress! Sheesh.
Hill confirmed that she climbed on the back of the car to retrieve part of JFK's skull. His brain matter was splattered all over her.
- I'm with R7. You don't tell a bunch of guys raking in billions through the control of the US monetary system, "You're fired. Game's up!" and not expect them to do something about it. Plus, if it's a real and successful conspiracy you want, just read up on the creation of the Federal Reserve.
- I don't think Jackie wanted OTOH, maybe she was forced to to protect her kids from the fallout. the kids' lives to be defined by the assassination. She struggled herself to resist that. She wanted the kids' lives to have value and be productive and celebrate their father's achievements. So she had the records sealed.
- Oswald. Sorry. If it had been someone else, we'd know by now. Especially after Watergate.
- The House Select Committee on Assassinations reported 'probable conspiracy' in 1979.
That didn't end with LHO being shot; many with links or leads were later found dead in mysterious circumstances.
Garry Wills's NYRB review of Caro's new volume on LBJ is riveting. A close colleague of LBJ's was under investigation for sexual and financial offences; and 'Life' magazine was scrutinising how LBJ came by his vast fortune. JFK's death ended both inquiries: new President, national crisis. It all worked out very well for LBJ.
- You're adorable r33.
"Go back to bed, America. We have everything under control."
- Thanks r33! I feel so much better now. Your unassailable logic really helped.
We probably shouldn't question the explanations we're given right? That's the best way to stay happy and free, I reckon.
- it was suicide.
- Just watch the Penn & Teller Bullshit episode about this. They do a good job debunking this stupid conspiracy theory. Oswald did it. Period.
- No one in mass culture criticized much about the JFK conspiracy theories until the late 90s, when the push was to debunk them. This occurred just around the time the term "first responders" was coined and these people were given heightened status (turned iconic a few years later on 9/11) and as the culture did a 180 from from fear and loathing of Vietnam vets to giving them parades (they still allowed them to be homeless and often crazy under bridges, though).
- It was physically impossible for anyone using the rifle Oswald used, to fire three or even two shots in the time those shots were fired, let alone two kill shots into a moving vehicle. Period, R38. I don't care what anyone says, not do I beleive these alleged demonstrations about trajectories or why it was possible. It wasn't.
I don't care about anything else that various conspiracy theorists or whomever might propose. You can blame LBJ or the mob, or the CIA or the Fed, or the full moon, Kruschev, Castro, etc., or anyone combination of goons. But for me it was the timing of the shots, their accuracy, and the rifle the police/FBI claim was used to do the deed.
I believe Oswald was part of the assassination attempt, but he was one of several. He knew they were after him, too. Thus the shootout with J.D. Tippett. (Christ these Texans had names!) It wouldn't surprise me if there were three. What ever.
They certainly knew exactly where to look for that rifle in the maze of boxes and mess on the 6th floor of the Schoolbook Depository bldg. They certainly zero'd in on Oswald fast enough. And judging from what went down with Tippett, I don't think they wanted to catch Oswald alive.
Knowing what we know now, and with the remove of time from this sad episode, we can be clear-eyed and not sensationalize things. I mean on 11-22-13, it will be 50 years since the deed was done.
I wish Caroline would so what she needs to, to have the files opened now. Fifty years is enough. Didn't she recently make some stuff about her mother avaialable to the public? So, I mean WTF.
- It's been a while but wasn't it Kristin Shepherd and they thought that Sue Ellen did it for a while because she went on a bender and blacked out?
- Some facts I had forgotten but was reminded of by Bryan Burrough's "The Big Rich": When Jack Ruby was arrested, he had Lamar Hunt's phone number on his person. An FBI agent called H.L. Hunt and told him JFK had been killed and he had better leave Dallas "for his own safety." H.L. Hunt had bought the full page ad in the paper that morning accusing JFK of treason.
- General Walker in cahoots with General Lemnitzer.
- Penn and Teller are tools and usually wrong.
- Ooh, R42. Is that Hunt related to E. Howard Hunt from Watergate? (Serious question)
- No. E. Howard Hunt was born in Buffalo in 1918.
H.L. Hunt, Lamar's dad, was born in southern Illinois in 1889. Of course he had at least three families.... Lamar Hunt founded the American Football League, North American Soccer League, and World Championship Tennis. He was longtime owner of the KC Chiefs. The Super Bowl was his idea.
H.L. Hunt was the primary moneybags of the radical right, a big supporter of John Birch and the Minutemen, which some people called his private army.
- No. 18, 1961 Los Angeles speech
"There have always been those fringes of our society who have sought to escape their own responsibility by finding a simple solution, an appealing slogan or a convenient scapegoat," Mr. Kennedy said.
Now, he continued, "men who are unwilling to face up to the danger from without are convinced that the real danger comes from within."
"They look suspiciously at their neighbors and their leaders," he declared. "They call for a 'man on horseback' because they do not trust the people. They find treason in our finest churches, in our highest court, and even in the treatment of our water."
"They equate the Democratic Party with the welfare state, the welfare state with socialism, and socialism with communism. They object quite rightly to politics' intruding on the military -- but they are anxious for the military to engage in politics."
- Those in the know, have always said it was Lurline Hootzenknocker that killed JFK. She masqueraded under many other names, but everyone in the know knows a Hootzenknocker job when they see one.
- R48=disinformationist. Not CIA, just a brainwashed Mare Can with a college degree grafted on a dropout mind.
- I THINK Oswald acted alone but that he had some connection to the CIA or government spy ops that was covered up.
- R38, when are you going to learn that TV is used to disseminate propaganda not the truth?
- Military Industrial Comples and their arm...the CIA. The CIA does most of the evil deeds across the world.
- If any of you really think Lee Harvey shot him from from that window and was the only person involved...you are simply stupid. And the guy who shot Robery Kennedy...come on? Where exactly was the secret service when all of that went down and Martin Luther King just gets shot by some red neck? Yeah, right.
- Oswald had a perfect shot down Houston with the motorcade coming at him as the car slowed for the turn. After the car turned on to Elm, it was speeding up, moving away from him at an angle downhill with foliage in the way. He was shot by someone else after Oswald FAILED to take a shot.
- Don't blame the CIA. Five months later RFK used the CIA to overthrow president Goulart in Brazil. Would he have used an organization that killed his brother? It was organized crime that killed them both. The golden rule of politics is leave organized crime alone. They'll always get you in the end. With RFK, whoever got a Palestinian to bump him off knew what they were doing. Far too hysterical an issue to ever investigate. Remember the wave of hijackings after RFK - Leila Khaled and Wadi Haddad never asked for Sirhan to be released. Sirhan didn't act out of loyalty to PALESTINE.
- But in '63 they were mostly using contractors for their evil deeds.
- The Fed is the CIA. George HW is the only person alive during that time who "can't remember" where he was when Kennedy was killed.
- [quote]the kill signal for all the blue-haired women in pearls with high-powered rifles stationed behind the grassy knoll.
Joe Arpaio's secret Latino huntin' posse has been using this secret weapon quite successfully.
- Even if Oswald was the only shooter, it didn't mean it wasn't a conspiracy.
"jfk was a brilliant film but that motherfucker stone through in everything but the kitchen sink to convince people oswald didnt do it."
R3, you idiot, Stone's movie JFK was based on several books about the assassination. Stone didn't create these theories.
- Penn & Teller did a very poot job of debunking the theory. They said it had to be Oswald because he shot at Walker. But Walker and Kennedy were enemies. Moreover Marina was the ONLY one who claimed Oswald shot at Walker. The ballistics seemed to prove otherwise and Walker and his gang had a history of doing shit to themselves so he could pose as victim.
Interestingly after the assassination somebody killed H.L. Hunt's dogs and took a shot at his mansion. Obviously not Oswald.
- R53, Bobby Kennedy did not have secret service protection as an candidate in 1968.
- Thanks, R46, for the H.L. Hunt info. My parents (and a gay cousin) were obsessive John Birchers and it was quite apparent to me as a child the hatred of JFK which completely permeated the John Birch Society. These were generally normal people who had gone down a very dark, paranoid road.
I've had many years to think about this, but my life was changed considerably after Kennedy's assassination. I simply rejected my 'rents and their ghoulish glee over the poor man's murder, creating personal complications. Plus side: I'm the only survivor of this family who isn't a completely nutzo teabagger.
- The mafia acting alone couldn't have gotten the media to cover up for them.
Both Dan Rather and LIFE magazine promoted false descriptions of the events depicted in the Zapruder film back when it was barred from public viewing.
- Conspiracies exist. Read about Operation Northwoods, a highly classified plan approved by the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Lemnitzer who served under Eisenhower and then JFK. Lemnitzer, in cahoots with the CIA, approved this plan to commit random acts of terrorism in Miami and other American cities and blame them on Castro as a pretext for a full American invasion of Cuba. JFK was apalled by this proposal, rejected it and denied Lemnitzer a second term as chairman. Essentially demoting him to some ambassadorship. Lemnitzer despised JFK after this and so, yes, I believe there to be something to the perfect storm theory explaining the assassination. JFK at this point had alienated many in power: the military (Lemnitzer), CIA (henchmen for the military), the Mafia who felt betrayed after essentially winning him the election. Any, some or all could have conspired to end his presidency.
- General Walker, an actual commander of special forces
- JFK also alienated the steel and oil industries. He opposed Israel's covert nuclear program and he stood up the Federal Reserve. The US Treasury began issuing silver certificates during JFK's administration, real money backed by a real precious metal. Nixon took us off the gold standard and we haven't had anything but "funny money" ever since.
- Maybe if the Americans did something real, instead of obsessing about nonsense like this, the world would improve.
- Maybe that's why Bunker Hunt was so obsessed with silver. He thought his daddy did it.
- Instead, the Saudis used the silver corner to break the Hunts.
- Here is an interesting article -
"Official Stories Exist to Protect Officials: Exclusive Excerpt from New Book Pt 1"
- Imagine the outfall if in fact Cuban Americans were involved. Bye Bye wet foot dry foot.
- R3's post is completely false. ABC did not disprove anything in Oliver Stone's film. How can they, when most of the things in it have been proven to be true and verified by documents released by the government itself?
And in case R3 doesn't realize this, ABC is part of the mainstream media who deliberately cover up the truth about the Kennedy assassination and attack anyone who tries to expose the truth about the CIA and the military-industrial complex and their involvement in the assassination.
- I think that "interesting article" is more disinformation. It conflates the JFK assassination with the polio vaccine.
The polio virus DOES cause polio and the vaccine DOES prevent it. It has been proven and tested independently all over the world. I won't even get into the HIV/AIDS part.
It makes people who have legitimate questions about JFK's death look like wing-nuts.
- [quote]The FED angle is bullshit.
- Peter Jennings was a disgusting apologist for the Warren Commission. I never forgave him after the ABC hit job he did (that R3 seems to love).
- We had one pulled over on us with The Warren Report...fact is, we are always having bullshit pulled on us.
For instance, that the Taliban supposedly poisoned a bunch of school girls. How about we poisoned a bunch of school girls to get more support for the US staying in Afghanistan? We all know that American's hate the way the Talaban treats women but which side would actually give the girls a mild poison? We would. I have no doubt that the CIA would do anything to keep our tax money going into the pockets of the war machine.
- Absolutely, R76.
Dwight Eisenhower warned Americans of the dangers of an out of control military-industrial complex back in January 1961 in his Farewell Speech.
- Colonel Mustard
- I'm surprised some of you conspiracy nuts aren't saying it was Blanche, Dorothy, and Rose who killed JFK. After all, do we know where they were on Nov 22. What a bunch of idiots.
- It was the CIA. Period.
- I'm surprised that many of you are so naive. You don't seem to understand that our "real" leaders have been pulling the wool over our eyes for decades. Grow up folks and start accepting the truth about our supposed democracy.
- R79, I am surprised you think that's an adequate response to the thousand pieces of evidence that point toward a conspiracy.
- [quote]Both Dan Rather and LIFE magazine promoted false descriptions of the events depicted in the Zapruder film back when it was barred from public viewing.
Really? What did they say?
- The Zapruder head explosion frame was not printed in LIFE. The entire film was not shown until Gerardo Rivera had it on his 1975 late night ABC show.
- r10 Dick Cheney also said it post 9/11. He talked about it right on TV. He called it the Shadow Government.
- But what were the "false descriptions" that Dan Rather and LIFE magazine promoted. What did they say was shown in the film?
- Rather didn't say anything. It was his silence that irked people.
- Both Rather and LIFE magazine claimed that JFK was turning around to wave to people behind him on the parade route. That was supposed to explain how he was shot in the throat from the alleged gunman's lair in the TSBD which the limo had already passed.
Of course the film never shows him turning around. It does show him reacting to getting hit in the throat while facing forwards.
What is more, that lie was used to explain the throat wound as an entry wound (which it certainly was.) This was before the throat wound was re-classified as an exit wound in order to accommodate Arlen Specter's "Magic Bullet" theory.
So the initial lies told by Rather and LIFE about JFK turning around to wave to people behind him (like he would do that!) was actually counterproductive once they came up with an official fable (for which young Specter was rewarded with a long-term Senate seat.)
- There have been so many shameful times in American history...most of them since JFK was murdered.
- Joan Rivers...without a doubt.
- Until the truth about the JFK assassination is revealed, America cannot be free.
Seriously. That is not being melodramatic - it is just a simple fact. If you have the military and the financial elite controlling the levers of power and assassinating people who get in their way, you are living in an Orwellian society.
- The thing is, so much bullshit has been unleashed by the conspiracy theorists over the years (which they never admit to) that even if there were a conspiracy behind it, no one reputable would ever believe it or report it.
When the Oliver Stone movie first came out, people said it would make people never believe again that Oswald acted alone. But the film was so rife with obvious inaccuracies and transparent falsifications that it desperately hurt the conspiracy theory cause forever.
- BULLSHIT, R92. Almost every single thing in Stone's film has been proven correct! I am always suspicious of people who try to smear Stone.
Have you even READ the documents that have been de-classified that show how many of the things Mr. X talked about happened for real?
That the U.S. planned to attack its own people (Operations Northwoods) in order to start a war with Cuba? (shades of 9/11)
That the CIA recruited former Nazis into its intelligence apparatus after World War II?
That JFK was going to pull Americans out of Vietnam before he was assassinated and that the decision was reversed by LBJ after he was killed?
- r92, what were the inaccuracies in the film?
- Still eagerly awaiting to find out what the inaccuracies were in Stone's JFK.
- It is interesting how many resources have been utilized to frame LHO and convince us that JFK was murdered by him alone.
Despite it all, only ignorance and denial enables this lie to continue.
In our lifetime, perhaps never, will we know the truth about the bastards who got away with murder.
Know this, the perps were close to home.
- Lee Harvey Oswald, although I think he was a paid assassin. I have no idea who actually set it up but I have a feeling it is not as shocking as the theories are. Probably some crackpot group.
- The Men Who Killed Kennedy series is really excellent.
I think it was the CIA. I believe that's who RFK thought did it too.
- [quote]The Men Who Killed Kennedy series is really excellent.
The whole series is now on YouTube, including the "censored" episode that apparently hasn't been shown on TV since it first aired.
- A Wikipedia article on the series.
- Some crackpot group that got the whole US media to go along with the cover-up (even to this day) and had thousands of government files sealed away for decades even though it was an "open-and-shut" case, R97?
- I think Oswald did it and acted alone but the reason for the cover up and classified information is that he was involved in some way with government organizations (CIA??) and that info had to be classified, so it looked like they were covering things up
- It was definitely a conspiracy, but I am not sure who exactly.
- The cubans in FL were definitely involved. I had a close friend in college who was the son of wealthy Cuban expatriates from Miami, his uncle had been captured and imprisoned by Castro after the Bay of Pigs mess. His entire family were RABID Kennedy family haters to the extreme.
One night after heavy drugging-drinking we were debating politics with him taking the right-wing view, naturally. The subject of JFK came up. "You do know" he said cold as ice, "my father and uncle KNOW who killed him, don't you? And we're proud to know, proud of who did it. Those who killed him will die HEROES to us". I've never had reason not to believe him.
- Why is everyone afraid to say the military? 99% of the time in history it's the military who does it, but in America we have to pretend it's the mob, or the CIA, or the Cubans. Don't you know that it was the military who created J. Edgar Hoover and his reign of terror? Don't you know they were behind the Christian right, the McCarthy era, and most likely behind the electronic vote fraud of our own time? When have they EVER been subjected to the civilian control that would clean out their hereditary clans of killers?
- See wikipedia link below about the Mayor of Dallas in 1963.
Kennedy wore a full body back brace due to his war injury when he experienced problems with back pain and weakness. He wore one in Dallas. He was unable to quickly respond and duck because of the brace.
Jim Garrison, the New Orleans District Attorney who initiated his own investigation, discovered that the motorcade route was changed. His book (On the Trail of the Assassins)was the basis for most of Oliver Stone's movie.
George H.W. Bush? President of Zapata Oil and was known as a independent Houston oil executive. Whereabouts on Nov. 21, 1963? Dallas, TX. Giving a speech. CIA links from way back. Kitty Kelley reprinted the speech announcement from the Dallas newspaper in her book The Family.
It was devasting for the US. Kennedy, though he had some faults, was standing up to the bankers, the steel industry and the oil industry. And he was dismantling the CIA. And they got him in Dallas. LBJ asked him to come to Dallas for party unity.
Yep, there was a conspiracy.
- In the late 90s I sat next to a businessman on a plane (he was in his early 60s). We were both going to see family for the Thanksgiving holiday. That particular day was the anniversary of JFK's assassination and out of the blue, he started talking to me about it. At that time he was a young Army officer at a base in Maryland. Not too long after the assassination, he had to help oversee troops set up a replica/recreation of the Dallas street/buildings to see if they could figure out if there was another shooter (at a minimum). He said they conducted many run throughs of what went on; their conclusion was that there was no doubt that a 2nd shot was taken by someone on the ground. He said he was very surprised that these findings were never publicized that he knew of. He said he was still very upset about the whole thing and that the Warren Commission report was a crock.
- It was definitely a conspiracy and Johnson was in on it.
- Just last week I saw this historian David Keiser - on a forum sponsored by David Brinkley - talk about his incredible research in the national archives and his very detailed discoveries. Very credible guy.
It was the mob
- [quote]It was the mob
Gore Vidal agreed and said the Dallas shooting resembled a Sicilian hit, but one of the posters from a few years back said the mob would have never opened fire on JFK with Jackie in the car...
- The mob may have played a role, but they weren't sophisticated enough to pull it off themselves. They had help from insiders.
- R109 here. I forgot to add that David Keiser said that some of the Cuban patriots were involved with the mob as well. It was Giancana and the mob boss from New Orleans who planned it. Bobby Kennedy had gone after both of them big time. They got Oswald to do it, and then got Ruby to take Oswald out. He also interviewed two different people who were players involved.
They first hired Oswald to kill Castro. (Apparently there were numerous plots) However, Oswald was not able to enter Cuba. So he came back. The New Orleans mobster - ran Dallas mob as well. When the White House announced Kennedy was coming to Dallas, they saw their big chance.
Read my link above. It's just amazing. I finally feel as if this guy answered it.
Also, poor Bobby Kennedy was not just grieving his brother, but probably felt responsible.
I watched this guy talk about it all for about 20 minutes - CSPAN. He blew me away with the details and linkage. I don't know why his book didn't make a bigger splash.
- Has anyone read this book? The author claims that her much older husband bragged that he and 2 of his mob associates, disguised as hobos, were backup shooters, as Lee Harvey wasn't really trusted. True?
- Isn't it curious that only Jackie's secret service agent, Clint Hill, was the only agent appearing to protect her at the time of the shooting.
Where were President Kennedy's secret service agents?
- Kennedy's Secret Service detail was out drinking the night before. Sam Giacana, the Chicago Mob Boss, controlled the Cuban casinos. And lost them when Castro took over. Sam also stole votes in the Chicago River Wards to ensure that JFK won Illinois. Sam knew patriarch Joe Kennedy - way back in the bootlegging days.
Joe Kennedy had a stroke on December 19, 1961 and lost all power of speech. He was not able to give advice to JFK and was unable to tell him about some of his past mob interactions. I think if RFK and JFK knew all about his father's deslings with Giacana and others, they would have made different decisions.
James Ellroy's books, American Tabloid and A Cold 6,000, pretty much tell the story of mob-FBI-CIA-Cuban ties to the crime.
Oswald earned a "D" in markmanship (Jim Garrison's research)when in the Navy.
It was a loss for the country. Reagan's attempted assassination also has CIA fingerprints. John Hinckley's father was in the oil business and lived in Texas for a while. Hinckley's father was a big George Bush supporter.
- Great photo, would love to know the story behind it
- The mafia killed Kennedy. They were the only group that could get away with it (code of silence, power, expertise, etc.).
And they truly won the war, didn't they?
Once hated and feared by all Americans, the mafia has enjoyed a cultivated accepted via the media. The Godfather movies illustrate this, as does the Sopranos, rat pack, Sinatra, ad nauseum.
They killed our President, got Americans addicted, turned our girls to prostitution, and ruined many small busnisses and enterprises.
They are our enemy, and yet, are somehoww idealized.
- Bob Jackson, the photographer who won the Pulitzer for taking the iconic picture of Oswald being shot by Ruby, was on a panel airing on C-SPAN this week said something I had never heard. He said he was in the 8th car of the motorcade on 11/22/63, had given up his film to someone to take back to his newspaper, and was out of film when the shots rang. He looked up to the building from whence he could tell the shots were coming, and saw the shooter remove the rifle from the ledge of the upper story window just as the last shot rang. I've heard the recollections of laypeople who saw the same thing, but never of someone of prominence.
- Oswald lone-killer deniers=climate control deniers.
- Cord Meyer. He could have ordered a CIA hit and Kennedy was doing his wife. He had her killed too.
- People who were likely involved:
* Allen Dulles, Charles Cabell, and Earle Cabell.
Kennedy had tried to break the CIA's power by firing Dulles and his deputy, Charles Cabell, and refusing to sanction further attempts to overthrow Fidel Castro after the failure of the Bay of Pigs invasion. Cabell's brother, Earle, the mayor of Dallas, changed the parade route from the far-safer original route straight down Main Street (which would not have brought either the Book Depository or the grassy knoll into play).
* Sam Giancana and Carlos Marcello (and probably, Santo Trafficante).
The CiA had been involved with the Mafia in trying to regain the immensely profitable Cuban casinos. (Remember, this was before gambling was legalized in Atlantic City, in 1976; Havana was a very appealing alternative for East Coast gamblers not interested in schliepping to Nowhere, Nevada.) Trafficante and Giancana worked most closely with the CIA on this; Marcello, as the New Orleans capo, most likely provided the actual talent.
In the mid-1960s, Sam Giancana lost power in the Mafia, spending seven years in exile in Mexico. He returned, cooperating with the FBI in exchange for his freedom. He was scheduled to testify before the House Select Committee on Assassinations when he was killed in his home in Oak Park, Illinois (the police detail asssigned to protect him being mysteriously recalled from that duty). Forensics revealed that Giancana was first shot in the back and fell to the ground, and that the hitman then turned him over and shot him, six times, in the mouth…the standard "you talk to much" style of killing informants. While this "message" could just be about Giancana's general involvement with the FBI, it seems likely to be also linked to what Giancana might have been planning to tell the assassinations committee.
* Frank Sturgis
In 2004, E. Howard Hunt made a "deathbed" confession that his son, St. John Hunt, filmed. (Hunt actually rallied and lived for three more years.) Hunt stated that he believed that Sturgis, with whom he worked on the Bay of Pigs invasion and the Watergate bugging, was involved in the assassination.
* Lyndon Johnson and McGeorge Bundy
The most important outcome of the assassination was Johnson's reversal of Kennedy's policies on the Federal Reserve and on Viet Nam. Kennedy had approved National Security Action Memo (NSAM 263) in October, calling for the phasing out of US involvement there, but the subsequent overthrow and assassination of South Vietnamese President Ngo Dinh Diem (and his brother, Nhu) had led to a need to re-evaluate. A conference was scheduled for Hawaii on Novermber 20th. (Presumably due a lack of secure communications, this required Ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge to make the 12 hour flight from Saigon to Honolulu, while many high-ranking US officials [Secretary of State Robert McNamara, Secretary of Defense Dean Rusk, National Security Advisor Bundy and others] flew from Washington to meet them.
The conference was held on the morning of the 20th (Hawaii time) and then Rusk and others flew on to Japan, Lodge flew back to Saigon, and McNamara and Bundy and others went back to DC. With the length of the flight and the six-hour time change, they got back at about 6 AM on the 21st.
Did Bundy (having spent 24 hours on planes surrounding a morning's worth of conference in Hawaii) crawl into bed and sleep all day? Heck, no! He got to work banging out the draft of NSAM 273, which Johnson would sign on the 26th, essentially reversing the entirety of NSAM 263 (despite a one-sentence line giving lip service to maintaining the timetable for withdrawal.)
NSAM 273 begins "The President has reviewed the discussions of South Vietnam which occurred in Honolulu, and has discussed the matter further with Ambassador Lodge." Really? When? Kennedy had left for Texas on the 20th, had no opportunity to meet with McNamara or Bundy and probably had no facilities to have a secure line set up to communicate with Lodge in Saigon.
TBC… (space limit)
- I did!!! Duh.
- Thanks R121 for putting that together. Don't you think somebody should put together a documentary or something? Somebody not wearing a tin hat. But the American people deserve to know this.
I assume the Kennedy's figured it out. Caroline said something about knowing who did it didn't bring him back. And certainly Bobby figured it out. But I guess the mafia connection and shared women, prevented Bobby from saying anything.
Now I wonder even more just who was behind killing Bobby. And why the world did he run when he knew who killed his brother?
- Kennedy had no plans to dismantle the Federal Reserve or to evacuate Vietnam. Some of you are so gullible.
What Kennedy had done was try to indict General Walker for "insurrection" and "treason." And he had tried to purge the European high command of the John Birch Society nuts in it. Given that a lot of right wingers thought he had stolen the election, this political purge sent the military over the bend.
But there is one foreign suspect that cannot be entirely dismissed: France. The CIA had given the OAS $100,000 to bump off DeGaulle. Allegedly the French only learned of this in 1966, but if they knew it earlier, it would have given them a very solid motive.
- If anyone is able to watch C-Span 3 right now (6 pm Eastern) there is a whole panel on this and several don't believe Oswald did it. Maybe it will be on again this weekend.
- R125, 2 of the 4 panelists thought it was Oswald.
- uh, oswald
- are we discussing who shot jfk, or who was involved in the planning of it? because it is clear oswald was the lone shooter, nobody knows whether he had help because he refused to admit to the shooting before he was killed
- [quote]because it is clear oswald was the lone shooter
If you disregard the forensic evidence, the eyewitnesses on the grassy knoll as the bullets whizzed by them, and the sightings of guns in the storm drain...
That is a picture of LBJ doing his Adolph Hitler impression. Jack was trying to get his attention, he wanted the VP to do his Ethel Merman.
- the people there reported hearing 3 shots, Oswald fired 3 shots, Oswald was the lone shooter. Hell the rifle was seen being pulled back inside the office window after the shooting.
It was him, for a while I thought it was a conspiracy, but I wised up. As far as how many shooters there were, we will never know who helped Oswald in the planning stages
- Jim Leavelle, Oswald's jailer and handcuffed to the prisoner when he was shot by Ruby, said on one of the panel discussions airing on C-SPAN this week that he told Oswald in private shortly before the Ruby shooting that he hoped anyone who might try to avenge JFK's death (there were lots of threats) would be as good a shot as Oswald had been. Oswald, Leavelle pointed out, kind of chuckled and said no one was going to be trying to shoot him. Not the kind of enraged reaction one would expect if Oswald had indeed been an innocent patsy - as he proclaimed when the larger world was his audience.
- Who cares at this point? It's been 50 years...get over it already.
- C-SPAN is airing CBS's coverage of the 1964 release of the Warren Report. Very interesting to hear the witnesses who saw the fleeing LHO kill the patrolman.
- i wised up with regards to acknowledging that oswald was the lone gunman. it is unlikely that oswald planned this on his own however....
- Sorry, but Oswald wasn't the lone gunman. He was as he described, and as was referenced earlier in this thread, the patsy. As I pointed out up thread, the gun they allegedly "found" in the School Book Depository Bldg. was a bolt action rifle with a loose sighting.
Every time the shooter fired the gun, he had to re-set the bolt. Each shot jarred the loose riffle scope. So the sighting was off. There was foliage obstructing his view, and there was a moving target.
It was impossible to fire three rounds from that gun in the time those three shots were fired. People on the grassy knoll dropped to the ground because the shots were coming from behind the fence.
I agree it was a mob hit. We know now that the CIA was using the mob to try various assassination plots against Castro. Bobby was relentless in persuing Giancana and the rest, and they hated the Kennedys for using them in the 1960 election and then with the CIA, but never taking their demands seriously.
- Like R131, I, too, was a conspiracy believer ... when I was young and impressionable. But the evidence of Oswald's sole guilt to the reasoning and reasonable mind is much too overwhelming to ignore. Just one first question to those who, incredibly, would give Oswald a pass: what happened to the covered "curtain rods" Oswald said he was carrying with him when he got a ride to work with the Oak Cliff neighbor of the Paynes the morning of November 22 when - for the one and only time since he got his job at the School Book Depository - he spent a work night with Marina?
- What is true is this, a bolt action rifle cannot be used fast enough to produce those shots accurately in that kind of succession at a moving target.
Cheney said it, there is a shadow government.
The link at the url is included to illustrate the level of arrogance and insanity that exists in our government. If you can be reminded of what we just went through with Cheney/Rumsfeld and still doubt conspiracy and its use in our government. . . then you are nuts.
- If Oswald were the shooter he would have shot as the limo was coming towards him at slow speed, not as it was accelerating away.
- Oswald killed him. Every CREDIBLE bit of evidence points to him and nothing else indicates anyone else did it.
Of course if you're the type to believe that the terrorist attacks of 9-11 happened because the WTC's two biggest buildings looked like an eleven...Good luck with the rest of your life.
- I'm saying Oswald killed him. But it was the mafia that put him there. Also, I wouldn't doubt there wasn't some kind of backup on the grassy knoll. But sho knows. It's the mafia part-for me anyway- that's important to reveal.
- Courtney Love
- Talk about guillble. Oswald was set up. He was a low level CIA agent who was caught up in the frenzy of a plot that began in New Orleans. The mainstream media not trying to find the truth is troubling.
A good place to begin is the infamous Paines - Michael and Ruth - who had ties to the CIA. Start googling for info about them and you can see how the set up was formed.
- What r140 said.
What caused JFK's head to explode and his neck to bleed were two bullets set into motion by a man with a good aim pulling the trigger on a rifle.
I know;how banal and unsatisfactory.
Some humans can't shake the need to believe that a huge, shocking event MUST have a huge, shocking cause. I'm not one of them.
The problem I have with conspiracies is that thier adherents ascribe too much skill to us flawed, mistake-prone, blabby, weak human beings.
- Exactly, R139. The only reason not to fire on JFK as he approached was, that by waiting until the car turned into Dealy Plaza, the car carrying Kennedy was in range of the other shooters.
And R138 says more succinctly what I have been saying all along.
It was definitely a conspiracy with Oswald as the lower level soldier who took the wrap.
Look at what we now know about the CIA. Look at what we now know of events like Watergate.
Clearly, the CIA and other "national security" operatives were not adverse to going with contractors who were slightly nuts. I mean, does anyone still believe CIA operatives were all civil servants, government employees with a G8 level classification?
They hired contractors. A lot of the contractors were ex-military, they were mobsters, hitmen, paranoid crackpots, tinhatters, etc. Look at Hunt, Liddy, Bernard Barker, and that crowd.
So the CIA and the mob hook up, throw in a few Cubans, "anti-communists," John Birchers, Klansmen, militia types, etc. and work with the local police nuts, of whom there were scores.
It wasn't uncommon for the cops to have ties to local extremists or mobsters. There was a lot of overlap back then with cops being Birchers, klansmen, extremists,etc.
Finding out the motorcade route, etc. wouldn't be that hard. They didn't have the technology we have now with metal detectors or ability to run instant security clearances, etc. A conspiracy successfully accomplished in 1963 is not that incredible. It is very credible.
Reigning in the CIA nuts afterward would have been something LBJ probably found daunting. JFK had a romantic, Ian Fleming notion of the CIA and international spies. After Dallas, LBJ was under no such illusions.
If there were ties into Cuba, or connected to the Bay of Pigs, LBJ would not have wanted that to come out. He would not have wanted to be placed in a position of having to invade Cuba, and renege on the agreement with Russia. He didn't want to start any shit with Russia. Not saying Castro was involved at all. But the anit- Castro Cubans may have wanted to stir things up.
- I believe in conspiracies. I am a Black American. When I look at how racism has been instituted in society, in education, jobs etc. How pervasive it has been and all encompassing. How White privilege has been instituted and thrives to this day, it's not hard to imagine that a vast group of individuals could pull something just as large off for other purposes.
Like or not White people and Uncle Rukus conspiracies exist.
- The motorcade route was published.
Della, you'er an idiot. Not one person has said that Oswald was too small a person to do something this big. It is a straw man argument never made by the people who see a conspiracy.
The conspiracy is established by facts, namely the overwhelming lack of any believable motive for Oswald and Ruby aside from money. And money means conspiracy because neither one had any himself. Most of what happens in the world happens by conspiracy. People are social animals for the most part. It is only in recent years that being a lone nut has become fashionable. In 1963, it was rare indeed.
- Ruby was actually deep in debt to New Orleans mafia.
- I'm pretty sure it was Mamie van Doren.
- Ruby wasn't in debt to the mafia, he was in debt to the government. He owed $40,000 in back taxes.
- r150, your response calls for 3 snaps at the end
- For all the wingnut conspiratorialists here, did Oswald - to the extent he, ahem, was something more than a pure innocent - do everything pro bono?!? Because he sure didn't get any money for his efforts. All the money he had to his name - a little more than a mere $100 (plus his wedding ring) - on the nightstand for the sleeping Marina.
- According to that historian David Keiser, Ruby was in debt to the New Orleans mafia. He owed them payments that the night clubs were supposed to fork over. And he owed bigtime.
- R152 it's very plausiblet Oswald was promised money after the event was accomplished. We have no idea. We also have no idea whether the information the police gave to the media was true. If Oswald had money on him when he was arrested do you think we'd know? Good chance any money he had found its way into the pocket of a DPD cop.
- [quote] According to that historian David Keiser, Ruby was in debt to the New Orleans mafia. He owed them payments that the night clubs were supposed to fork over. And he owed bigtime.
To anybody who knew Ruby, the thought that this highly emotional man would be anybody's idea of a hit man is utterly laughable. As is the idea that the omnipotent powers that be that masterminded this massive conspiracy would allow Oswald to be caught alive, let alone talking to the Dallas PD for 48 hours.
- I still don't fully understand why Oswald shot the policeman? Was it while O was running away from the Book Depository?
- Barbara Bush
- It was obviously Julie.
- LHO would have been told the (relevant) police were bought and paid for. Cash on completion. One word out of place and Marina, and others, would pay the price.
Having been flattered and Chosen, he did the job. That's when he knew he wasn't the only one Chosen. JFK took shots he hadn't fired.
Apprehended by a (clearly unbriefed) cop, still processing his set-up, in turmoil, he panicked and shot. Checkmate Patsy. Blab and Marina dies, and also confirms you as one of history's biggest ever useful idiots.
LHO knew it was over for him, and was just a matter of when. Ruby exploited the seismic shock in the air to finish the job; but there'd have been a suicide, or something, soon enough otherwise. Plenty more peripheral figures who let it be known what they knew met untimely ends.
- Julie told Jackie O., are you going to let that man make a fool of you with his affairs? So what if he's president? You know how they dealt with adulterers back in my day? They were killed in a "hunting accident" of the triangulated crossfire kind!
- Oswald was probably instructed to stay by the telephone in the break room on the second floor. Everyone else in the building would be outside watching the motorcade. He would be in a windowless area where no one could see him. That would mean no one could place him anywhere but where the public was falsely told he was during the shooting: on the 5th floor.
He may have received phone instructions to go home, get his weapon and meet someone at the cinema where he was arrested. The arrest was probably the first time he realized that his role in the affair was to be the fall guy. He was not charged by the police with killing the president, only with shooting Officer Tippit. He did not learn of the assassination charge until a reporter shouted a question to him hours after his arrest. Keeping him in the dark about his role as the patsy would prevent him from devising any sort of alibi or defensive strategy.
With his history as an ersatz defector to the Soviet Union, he must have known what they were doing to him in the press. "Communist Sympathizer Shoots JFK," which was ironic as he knew himself to be working with a dedicated anti-communist faction.
- Susan Rice
- Reading this thread and so many of its fanciful conspiracy posts confirms that no party has a monopoly on crazy people.
- I can't buy into the theory that Oswald acted alone There are simply to many things that don't fit.
If Oswald was the patsy, or part of a larger plan, then it makes no sense to even consider the possibility that he was the only shooter.
Anyone who sets out to kill The President is going to make damn sure their plan succeeds, not trust it to a flake like Oswald making a shot. That's like a Superbowl team picking a fan out of the crowd to try to kick the winning field goal.
If you accept that there was a larger plan (Oswald being the patsy), then for the same reason you're not going to delegate it to the Mafia, the Cubans, or whatever other group. You're going to go with the A Team all the way. In this case that means military trained snipers, and that means CIA or the Military did it, and they had more than one man in place.
- R163, there are so many holes in the official story, only a boob or a liar would stand by it.
- R164, the mafia the Cubans and the extremists in Dallas did not think of themselves as losers. One thing the mafia did well was kill people. The "marriage" of organized crime figures with low life CIA contractors, was a lethal combination.
These were people who knew just enough about the way things work sometimes, to think they KNEW how things worked. You take corrupt elements in the Dallas PD, mafia hit men, and put them together with fringe elements of political activist Cubans embittered by the Bay of Pigs and Castro, and you have yourself a murderous mess.
I think Oswald was a patsy and that the mob exploited it's contacts with the CIA contractors & Crazy Cubans for cover, and they took out the President.I even read one account that they originally wanted to kill Bobby, but someone, maybe Giancana or someone else, said to cut off the head of the Hydra, and the entire body dies. In other words, Bobby ceased to be a problem,m if JFK were gone.
My guess is they already had enough dirt on LBJ to know he was manageable, no threat to them. I also don't think he was in on it. ALso, consider that once JFK was hit, and Connolly was hit, and LBJ was SO CLOSE to the event, right there when it happened, the "almost" factor kicked in,& he was the most accomodating SOB you'd ever find.
They scared him, that was sufficient. Bet the first thing he did when he got to the hospital was ask for a clean pair of underwear, because he probably shit himself.
- R166, how could the mob get the media to cover up for them, then and still today?
- R165, you must also believe in OJ's innocence.
- OK, there's no doubt that the Mafia was good at killing people, and they had no shortage of people with that sort of expertise.
My problem is that they don't generally do it that way. If someone had pulled a gun at a rope line JFK was working, or if they had put a bomb under his limo, then sure, but sniper(s) with high power rifles? Can anyone point to a case where the Mafia did anything similar?
The CIA and the Military, on the other hand, have whole training schools dedicated to exactly that method of execution, and had no shortage of very competent people ready to the job.
- Yes,R169, but that's where the CIA connections and the Cubans came in. You're right, the usual Mob style was as you say, bombs under cars or getting up close in a rope line.
Let's say I'm Giancana, or who ever were the top two or three guys in the mafia, and we decide that we want to take out JFK. We have to think about how we do that.
We have to consider the Secret Service and all the other security measures, and understand that we can't do him the way we normally do things. We have to figure out a way to do it without calling attention to ourselves.
At the same time, we've learned a few things from the CIA contractors, the paramilitary mercenaries, Crazy Cubans, etc. we became accquainted with when we were trying to assassinate Castro.
We become more sophisticated in our planning. We make this look like a political assassination, with two teams of shooters and a fall guy, but it's really a mob hit.
Remember the scene in the JFK movie (Oliver Stone) when crazy Joe Pesci's character kept talking about "triangulation?" It was laughably plausible. Mob guys learning military terms & techniques and babbling about them.
It's also my belief that who ever was directly involved in JFK's assassination was killed by another team of hitmen who had no idea why they were killing some random guys. All you needed was two or three corrupt Detectives in the DPD, to go to the 6th floor maze and "find " the rifle.
Don't forget, they were really pissed off at Oswald for killing a cop that afternoon. They beat him up pretty good and we happy to pin the assasination on him too.
They could have got away with all of it, IMO, if they had chosen a better rifle. The one they placed in Oswald's hands figuratively speaking, was not remotely capable of carrying out the mission.
- R168, I would say YOU must be the gullible one who still believes that OJ was innocent!
- Conpiracy talk brings to mind Occam's Razor. That is, it's a basic truism that all other things being equal, the simplest explanation is usually the right one.
- R172 I don't know anything about JFK conspiracy theories but I don't see how a mob hit is not a simple answer.
- I agree, R173. IMO, it was a mob hit set up to look like the crazy, politically disaffected, lone gunman. Oswald was publically portrayed as "Fair Play for Cuba" pro-Castro. The reactionary Right Wingnuts in Texas would definitely buy that. It was plausible to rabid, John Birch Society extremists.
The top Mafia guys learned a lot about the political angles since the Kennedy White House enlisted their involvement in assassination attempts against Castro. They are so often protrayed as dumb goombahs, and yes, many of them were unpolished, crude people, but they weren't dumb. They were smart, cunning and ruthless.
LBJ honestly believed Castro may have directly or indirectly instigated the hit. He was worried that if such a thing could be proved, it would place him in the unhappy situation of invading Cuba, and bring the wrath of Soviet Russia down on us. After the non-invasion" clause that helped avert the Cuba Missile Crisis, he wanted all that to go away.
So the mafia turned the tables on JFK, by recruiting some crazy former CIA contractors, hit men types to do the job, then they got rid of them.
- The media would not cover up for the mafia.
The media would cover up for the CIA and the Pentagon.
- I don't believe there was an elaborate cover up involving the media. Except for invoking national security if they even did. All Mafia had to do was insulate itself thru layers of campflauge which they were very good at.
Get a couple of corrupt top DPD guys and it was done. If you've seen footage of the huge maze on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository, you can appreciate what a set up it was.
The gun was "discovered" nowhere near the window. It was "hidden" among stacks of boxes. How fortuitous that it was "found" so quickly. All the Mafia needed was a few higher ups in the DPD to frame Oswald and it was done. Remember, he killed a cop. No one cared about him. There were no civil libertarians at the DPD.
The media was as stunned as anyone when it happened and were covering it much differently than they might have several years later. This was not a time for Woodward & Berstein type reporting. This was before the Pentagon Papers and Seymour Hersh. The media was a lot more malleable, especially when it came to covering the PResident.
These people went to the highest bidder, and there were some that were as disgruntled by the Bay of Pigs mess as the crazy Cubans were.
So yes, from the perspective of several decades we can see what appear to be the CIA's "fingerprints" on the entire enterprise. I'm convinced it was not an officially sanctioned hit as part of some vast conspiracy. I think it was a just a very successful mob hit. Period
Personally, the RFK assassination's even more intriguing. He wasn't supposed to go thru the kitchen that night at the Ambassador Hotel. It was a spur of the moment decision. Whether Sirhan was stalking him and followed him into the kitchen, or just happened to be in the right place at the right time with a loaded gun? Who can say.
As I recall,other people wounded in the shooting, but not a lot of focus on them. Head shot in a crowded room. Quickly apprehended, backstory given was that he was angry at Israel and viola', there was the rationale for the hit.
Again, not a lot of media scrutiny. Not a lot of investigative journalism. Mostly just accepting the "official story." Kind of like accepting the official story about 9/11, and dismissing conspiracy theories as nuts. Of course there are crazy conspiracists out here so that helps.
- Nonsense. Not the mob. They couldn't kill Castro, but you think they could kill Kennedy. Don't be stupid. It was a military operation run by folks with military experience.
General Walker for example. His job in World War II was to run commandos behind enemy lines arranging sabbotage and assassination. He commanded the troops that desegregated Little Rock. But then he became a John Bircher, persuaded that the government was all a Communist conspiracy and only an authoritarian conspiracy could properly combat it. JFK fired him and other Birchers who were in the NATO command. Walker became a segregationist and told people in the South to resist the feds. RFK tried to have him indicted for insurrection but the grand jury in Mississippi failed to do so. In 1963 he took out ads in Dallas calling the president a traitor. He gave money to other groups who put up billboards and handed out flyers on Nov. 22 calling the president a traitor. Lee Harvey Oswald attended one of his rallies Nov. 30, odd behavior for a man who supposedly shot at Walker months earlier. J.E. Hoover quoted from Walker's speeches.
Yet when the Warren Commission called him to testify, they apologized for bringing him in to waste his time and gave him an obsequious minimal treatment.
Rather astonishing, isn't it?
- Robert Kennedy jr. told Charlie Rose that his father never believed the Warren Commission report and that there was a solid basis for believing the Mob Hit version of events. He told him this in a live interview in Dallas within the past couple of days. Bobby even had investigators check phone records and other things which substantiated this belief.
- Here's a quote from the AP article about the Charlie Rose interview RFK, jr. did in Dallas:
"Rose asked if he believed his father, the U.S. attorney general at the time of his brother's death, felt "some sense of guilt because he thought there might have been a link between his very aggressive efforts against organized crime."
Kennedy replied: "I think that's true. He talked about that. He publicly supported the Warren Commission report but privately he was dismissive of it."
He said his father had investigators do research into the assassination and found that phone records of Oswald and nightclub owner Jack Ruby, who killed Oswald two days after the president's assassination, "were like an inventory" of mafia leaders the government had been investigating.
He said his father, later elected U.S. senator in New York, was "fairly convinced" that others were involved"
- Judyth Baker says Oswald told her David Atlee Phillips planned it.
- That's interesting, R178. Is there a transcript of the show?
- RFK Jr. - yuck! Did he also wax on about the preservative in vaccines causing autism (which he promoted for years after it was debunked by about every possible study)? Who knows who killed JFK, but that loser has no credibility and this is yet another desperate grab for attention.
- I thought for many years that the government had told us the truth about all the assassinations, but now I strongly suspect that J. Edgar Hoover, Richard Nixon, and rogue elements in the FBI and the CIA, in cooperation with the Mafia were responsible for the killings of JFK, RFK, and MLK, Jr. I don't think that LBJ was involved, and Oliver Stone did not make much of a case for that either. The vague warning of Dwight David Eisenhauer when he left office about a military-industrial complex was directed toward Nixon. That man was corrupt beyond imagination, and he was humilated by the loss to JFK. I don't know if he had his sights set on 1968 before the JFK killing, but the RFK killing was certainly designed to help get Nixon in the White House. Hoover hated MLK, Jr. because he was himself keeping a secret that his grandfather had been a light-skinned domestic slave in Georgia before the Emancipation. He had threatened his relatives in Georgia who had not passed over to "white" that he would have them killed by FBI agents if they did not keep his secret. He was also subject to blackmail by the Mafia because of his longterm homosexual relationship with Clyde Tolson. It has now come out that Nixon also was probably a closeted homosexual whose lifelong best friend Bebe Rebozo was well known to be homosexual in the "gay" bars of southern Florida.
- [quote]Who really killed JFK?
Someone with the flu
- [quote] This was not a time for Woodward & Berstein type reporting
Don't be ridiculous. They did not invent hard investigative reporting. In fact, they were pretty much handed their story by an informant. Remember.
Who really killed JFK?
All these speculations never offer up any proof. He may have - they may have - please all the mays in the world don't add up to anything. No one would keep this a secret if they weren't part of the conspiracy itself.
So is someone suggesting that Gen Walker faked his own assassination attempt shortly before Kenendy's?
- Regardless of who did it, it seems to me that Oswald's Carcano Model 91/38 rifle should be returned to Marina.
If the government believes that Oswald did it, then it no longer needs to hold on to any evidence. Oswald is dead, his heirs should have it.
Think what that rifle would go for at auction. Recently, during a gun buyback, someone turned in a German machine gun picked up by their grandfather in WWII - it is worth $50K.
The Carcano could easily go for $20 million.
I know it's heartless - but, it belongs to them.
Husband is a gun collector
- Listen to David Keiser here. He's got it all...
- According to Dr. Haslam the day after Dr. Mary Sherman was murdered LBJ made a sudden unscheduled stop to JFK's grave and spent time there, possibly suddenly realizing he'd been faked out by the real perps.
- "It has now come out that Nixon also was probably a closeted homosexual"
- A conspiracy of mobsters — and not a lone gunman — probably killed President John F. Kennedy 50 years ago, JFK’s nephew Robert F. Kennedy Jr. said in an interview.
Although JFK-killed-by-mob theories have been around for years, it’s the first time a member of the family has called it likely.
Kennedy told journalist Charlie Rose his theory Friday in a Dallas opera house two miles from where JFK was killed. His comment came at the start of a year of observances for the anniversary of JFK’s death.
"The evidence at this point I think is very, very convincing that it was not a lone gunman,” said Kennedy, whose father, Robert F. Kennedy Sr., was killed at a Los Angeles hotel in win in the 1968.
Kennedy said his father thought the government’s Warren Commission, which concluded JFK killer Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, was a “shoddy piece of craftsmanship
Ben Dunham, NY Daily News, Sat. Jan. 12, 2013
- The Road to Dallas
The Assassination of John F. Kennedy
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HISTORY: United States: 20th Century
BIOGRAPHY & AUTOBIOGRAPHY: Presidents & Heads of State
About This BookAbout the AuthorsReviewsTable of Contents “Finally a historian, without preconceptions, has looked at the voluminous, once secret documents produced by the CIA, the FBI, and other government agencies in response to the JFK Assassination Records Act of 1992. Kaiser’s nuanced conclusions on Oswald’s guilt and the ominous issue of conspiracy will command respect from even those who disagree with them. Comprehensive, beautifully crafted, and well-reasoned. An essential addition to the JFK corpus. ”—G. Robert Blakey, Notre Dame Law School, and former Chief Counsel of the House Select Committee on Assassinations
“While plenty of authors have argued that the Mafia and anti-Castro Cubans were behind the assassination of President Kennedy, few have done so as convincingly as Naval War College history professor Kaiser...His attention to detail and use of recently released FBI and CIA files put this analysis ahead of many of its fellows...This is a deeply disturbing look at a national tragedy, and Kaiser’s sober tone and reasoned analysis may well convince some in the Oswald-was-a-lone-nut camp.”—Publishers Weekly (starred review)
“In the seemingly neverending arms race between the lone-assassin and the conspiracy theorists, Kaiser adds a serious piece of scholarship to the arsenal of those who believe Americans have yet to learn the whole truth about the assassination of JFK.”—Kirkus Reviews
“A scrupulously researched account, which may be one of the best books yet on the assassination...Kaiser posits that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman although he did not act alone: the murder plot was hatched by Mafia bosses Santo Trafficante, John Roselli, and Sam Giancana as revenge for Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy’s relentless pursuit of the mob and for the vast sums of money they lost when Castro closed Cuba’s mob-controlled casinos. Other startling revelations are that Oswald might have been a CIA agent, even though he was promised a large sum of money by the mob to kill Kennedy, and that Jack Ruby killed Oswald on orders from the Mafia, to which Ruby was connected. This detailed, often chilling account stands out among the overwhelming number of assassination books.”—Karl Helicher, Library Journal (starred review)
“A thorough recounting of facts interspersed with interpretations and opinions that carry the weight of someone who knows how to analyze history... Kaiser isn’t the first to suggest JFK was assassinated by a conspiracy of anti-Castro Cubans upset at Kennedy’s failure to eliminate Fidel Castro and a Mafia enraged by the obsession of JFK’s attorney general, his brother Robert Kennedy, to attack organized crime. But Kaiser may be the first to reach the depth of reporting the facts that support this theory...It would be hard to imagine anyone but Kennedy assassination scholars and historians not learning something new in Kaiser’s book. For fans of Oliver Stone’s movie JFK (1991) and JFK assassination junkies, the book is the latest--and perhaps best--view of the historic event.”—Roman Modrowski, Chicago Sun-Times
“In The Road to Dallas we see the rare vindication of the lunatic fringe, as Kaiser--who teaches history at the Naval War College--puts forth the first serious historical study to confirm what we’ve long suspected: that JFK’s killing was not the work of a lone madman. Comprehensive and well documented, The Road to Dallas connects the dots from the CIA to Carlos Marcello with convincing thoroughness. If you think you’ve had enough of grassy-knoll theories, this book will surprise you.”—Leopold Froehlich, Playboy
“Historian David Kaiser’s meticulously researched new work, The Road to Dallas, about the shocking and clandestine maneuverings of our CIA and FBI under President John F. Kennedy, paints a disturbing portrait of what often goes undetected at the highest levels of government...Kaiser’s investigation seems to put to rest the long-held notion put forth by the Warren Report that Oswald acted alone and was simply a nutty gunman. He examines new evidence that lays out Oswald’s extensive entanglements with suspicious persons prior to the assassination...Kaiser’s fine book destroys any romantic view of world politics we might wish to cling to--and shows us a much darker reality.”—Elaine Margolin, Denver Post
“A most interesting book on the JFK killing--much better than almost all the rest...It is 509 pages long, costs $35, and is well worth the time and money...[The] trove of official material has been sifted by some (not as many as one might expect) writers and historians in the intervening years, but by none exhibiting Kaiser‘s dogged approach, application of logic, clear writing style, understandable presentation and impressive analytical ability...This is a dynamite book--understandable, readable and as vivid as the best crime novels. Only this hit job happened. And it changed our world.”—John Hanchette, Niagara Falls Reporter
“We may yet one day discover a "smoking gun" that makes all other theories fall away. Until then, Kaiser’s book may rise to be the most plausible explanation we are likely to read.”—Richard Delevan, Irish Independent
“Kaiser, a respected professional historian at the Naval War College, combed through mounds of previously classified documents to craft an interesting, well-written account of the days leading up to the assassination. Kaiser effectively places the events that transpired in Dallas within the context of contemporary politics. He masterfully tracks the administration’s vendetta against organized crime and the numerous Kennedy-era assassination plots against Fidel Castro. The author lucidly argues that the assassination, although carried out by Lee Harvey Oswald, was the culmination of Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy’s crusade against the mob. While this conspiracy theory is not new, the supporting documentation and the captivating account laid out by an established historian makes for some fascinating reading.”—J. B. Cook, Choice
- Very interesting, R 192, but you have to leave the CIA alone. So much wishful thinking. So many people think the CIA should stick to the job of eliminating Arabs hostile to Israel. Anything else it does is totally evil. For the record, Robert Kennedy used the CIA 5 months after his bother's assassination to depose the leftist President Goulart in Brazil. This is a well-known fact. Would he have used an agency that killed his brother?
- Robert Kennedy had nothing to do with the CIA, especially after his brother was assassinated. If you think, in your wildest imagination, that LBJ was going to have Bobby, who was still the AG (in name only by then) dabbling with the CIA, which was wholly out of his jurisdiction, you're nuts.
Hoover and his FBI were off limits to the CIA, and the CIA was paranoid about necraochments from the FBI on their territory. Bobby had no clearance nor authorization to order any CIA hits sfter his brother was gone.
The only thing that bothers me about that review on the book, R192, is that the author suggests Oswald was the one gunman. I still believe he was The Patsy. He was part of the team, he was at his post, but his rounds never hit anyone.
For me the mobhit was confirmed as the source when I discovered that Oswald was portrayed as a Pro-Castro activist. That and the gun. Bolt action with a defective sighting mechanism.
- On the CSPAN show, he admitted he had interviewed more people since publishing the book. (I think it was Marcello's dying lawyer) He does now think that Oswald may have been a patsy and there was another shooter.
I guess I need to get the book. And rewatch the CSPAN show. That was taped just this fall, and would illustrate his latest thinking. It is a very complicated scenario. If I hadn't watched this forum, I don't know if I would believe it. And, obviously, Douglas Brinkley -who we see on tv all the time as a much respected historian - must believe it as well. Why else have him as a guest?
There was a effort to destroy David Keiser's credibilty. With a fake email sent wide about him comparing Obama to Hitler - which was proven not to be from him. But that's kinda interesting right there. At least he's survived the telling. Looks like others did not.
- R194, I knew the person who typed the Goulart memo. Indeed it was RFK's doing.
- To the extent that the Warren Commission was shoddy, as the less than reputable RFK, Jr., claims, in large part that's attributable to the panel's efforts to hide from the public the Kennedy brothers efforts to kill Castro - a fact which goes some way to providing Oswald's motive to kill JFK.
- Just finished reading Oswald's Tale by Norman Mailer. Mailer was convinced at the outset that there was a conspiracy, but eventually came to the view that Oswald was the lone gunman. That's the same conclusion reached by Stephen King, who wrote 11/22/63. King points out that to the reasonable person it's a "virtual certainty" that Oswald acted alone.
- If Oswald was the lone gunman, it doesn't rule out conspiracy.
- R198, Stephen King is noted for his fiction.
It is no surprise that very rich, very popular figures like Stephen King and Tom Hanks are employed by the CIA to promote the "Oswald acted alone" theory.
Common sense and a mountain of evidence tell us Oswald did not act alone and was no more than a designated patsy, just as he claimed to be.
- R196, either your timeline is incorrect, or the person you "knew" lied. Capish? If RFK was involved in the Goulart overthrow, then it happened before JFK died. If it happened after JFK was assasinated, RFK was not involved. Unless LBJ had his named typed in. (joke.) And BTW: If they were ordering an assasination or an overthrow, they generally didn't type out a memo stating such. Are you delusional?
LBJ neither liked nor trusted RFK and Bobby despised Lyndon. Despised him. Once LBJ had his post assasination chat with Bobby, they went their separate ways and Bobby was isolated. Eventually he left DOJ, went mountain climbing, and ran for Senate from NY.
In 1964, LBJ was paranoid Bobby would run against him, he ran for the Senate in NY instead. The standing ovation Bobby got at the Democratic national Convention that year chilled LBJ to the bone.
LBJ and Lady Bird were friendly to Jackie, but it ended there. After JFK died, Jackie's attitude towards the Johnsons became more sympathetic then back when she used to mock their southern accents.
- R200 you are right on. So many media types (even Rachel Maddow who I adore) won't touch this case, the most fascinating murder mystrey in American history. Tom Hanks, Stephen King, Bill O'Reilly have all had the cool aid. That horrible creepy Gerald Posner guy has been exposed as a plagirist, and after his 1993 book he was invited onto so many news programs as an 'expert' even though he had no creds. Sickening. Oswald was set up, pure and simple, and murdered to keep him quiet about what he knew. He was moved along the chess board to be in that buidling and take the fall. People who owned that building and others who worked there HAD to have been involved. The infamous Paines who put a roof over Oswald's wife Marina and his children, are also highly suspect. Their CIA connections are extensvie. Michael Paine was a CIA operative/provacateur. Jim DiEugenio has written a book that truly blew me away - find it, read it.
- I am suspicious of the Mr. Porter who married Marina, and adopted her daughters, so soon after the assassination. I think that was a loose end that needed to be tied up, and he kept Marina quiet until he died. Then all of sudden she was all over the media. I don't think she really knows anything, but she drew a lot of attention back to the case for a while.
- [quote] Oswald was set up, pure and simple, and murdered to keep him quiet about what he knew.
Utterly laughable. First of all, had he not been stopped by Tippit, Oswald may well have evaded authorities for awhile. Having been detained, however, Oswald lived for nearly 48 hours while being questioned by the Dallas PD. If he was murdered to keep him quiet, he wouldn't have made it out alive of the Texas School Book Depository, let alone conceivably succeeding, at least temporarily, in making his getaway or allowed to be questioned at all by the authorities.
[quote] I am suspicious of the Mr. Porter who married Marina, and adopted her daughters, so soon after the assassination. I think that was a loose end that needed to be tied up, and he kept Marina quiet until he died. Then all of sudden she was all over the media.
Mr. Porter remains among the living.
- The mob, partnering with rogue CIA and local police, managed it, with Oswald as a dupe.
I've written it before. My partner worked as an assistant to the Dallas Chief of Police in the 1960s (Yeah. We're old.) and it was common knowledge there and then about what happened, even as whispers and nothing overt was disseminated. My partner left, but looked over his shoulder for years, even after I met him, until time reduced the sense of caution.
Mob and Ruby, Oswald and rogues who represented industry interests, and tacit acceptance by the authorities responsible both for immediate response and later investigation. AND no one wanted it to blow up, either with the other-country narrative they threatened to pull, or the internal conspiracy, which would have brought the country to its knees as factions fought and impossible attempts to move on it would have ripped through things for years.
My partner assumed the LBJ connection, at least after the fact as the need to put a lid on it came up. I figure Hunt was a liar, but LBJ was as dirty a creature as any who ever made it in politics, and was capable of anything amid his emotionalism and rage.
But the rest of it - well, take it or leave it. But to claim nothing aided Oswald or patsied him (as he kept screaming) is naive. Also, thinking that his being arrested meant he alone was guilty (R204) is illogical. They never feared Oswald - Tippit was part of the control plan (whether he knew it or not). They didn't want Oswald stopped at the Depository - they had things under control all along.
- Oswald left Marina a note before the Gen. Walker assassination attempt, detailing what she should do if he did not return.
He didn't leave a similar note before the Kennedy assassination?
Gen. Walker was sitting at a desk in his dining room when Oswald fired at him from less than a 100 feet away.
Kennedy was a moving target 177 to 266 feet away.
- Oliver Smith
- I don't believe that LBJ was involved, because he and Lady Bird were also in that motorcade. And I can't imagine, that if he were going to participate in a plot to kill the President, he would do so in his home state, when he is putting John and Nellie Connolly, as well as Jackie, at such a great risk. And the secret tapes of his conversations in the Oval Office have been released. I have read the transcript where he plotted, with J. Edgar Hoover, to blackmail Earl Warren, with threats about sexual activity in Mexico, into the Warren Commission coverup. But that was designed to just get the American people to accept the simplistic "lone crazy Lee Harvey Oswald" explanation. The house of cards which is the American economy depends upon Americans having confidence and keep going to work, paying taxes, and buying stocks and bonds. I remember an interview where LBJ frankly said that he always thought a foreign government was involved, then he tried to get the news organization to forget that comment. I figure that the Mafia, with the cooperation of the blackmailed closet case, J. Edgar Hoover, was responsible.
- RFK Jr. said his father claimed there were numerous phone records of calls between Oswald, Ruby, and organized crime people.
- Ruby called Jack Binion in Las Vegas 7 times in the 90 days before the assassination.
- I would suggest reading UNDERSTANDING
SPECIAL OPERATIONS And Their Impact on The Vietnam War Era
1989 Interview with L. Fletcher Prouty
Colonel USAF (Retired) (full book online at the link)
Fletcher Prouty was the man that Oliver Stone based his Mr X on in JFK. He also served as Chief of Special Operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff under President John F. Kennedy.
I have problems with a lot of the liberties Stone took with the truth, but I have read enough to believe that his Mr X was close to 100% right
- Link is to the chapter "A Very Special Operation: The Assassination of President Kennedy" in the Fletcher Prouty book
- Part 2 "A Very Special Operation: The Assassination of President Kennedy"
- R208, Johnson said what he said to cover up his gaffe of referring casually to the conspiracy. Also, he was two cars behind, and was screaming "They're going to kill us all," as what was happening became evident and he was pushed to the floor of the car.
As the primary beneficiary of the assassination, and given his history, there's always going to be a question of his possible role. Madeline Brown, LBJ's longtime mistress, said she asked him, finally, and he said "big oil" and the CIA did it. But she also recounted a meeting Johnson and others had one night right before the assassination, and Johnson came out of it (She was a guest at the dinner just before Johnson showed up and the meeting started in a closed room.), took her hands, and said, "Those god damned Kennedys will never embarrass me again. That's not a threat. That's a promise!'" H.L. Hunt's party.
- I always thought it was because Old Joe Kennedy had a long association with the mob and needed their help in getting JFK elected in 1960. Maybe Joe didn't tell JFK or RFK about his "friends," or maybe he had his stroke before he could tell them, because, as Attorney General, RFK certainly amped up an investigation of the mob that really pissed them off. They had the motive. There's evidence the CIA was involved, an outlaw cadre formed a Bay of Pigs revenge plot? I don't know. But the mob is the gang that couldn't shoot straight. They would have had to have had intelligence and technical assistance, most likely courtesy of the CIA.
- I've always thought that many of these people who give deathbed confessions (confessions that only come out when the people have died and cant answer questions) are either doing it because it was the cost they had to pay for the govt looking the other way, or it's their relatives, lawyers etc trying to sell a book.
If you had shot at Kennedy, would you admit it ever?
- If I had shot Kennedy, I'd be dead within a month of killing him if not sooner.
- So much of the resistance to Oswald as the lone gunman seems to be informed by the notion that one individual could not have carried out the assassination of a president. Yet with Jodie Foster in the news we're reminded that a lone gunman came within inches of killing a president.
- The lone gunman who attempted to kill Reagan did it in plain sight. He wasn't hidden & Anonymous. He was arrested at the scene. There is absolutely no comparison to the JFK assassination. Nada.
- [quote] it was common knowledge there (Dallas police department) and then about what happened
And yet all this produced no evidence of such a conspiracy. Because we all know how discreet members of police forces are.
Whispers, speculation and alleged hearsay do not a conspiracy make.
[quote] It is no surprise that very rich, very popular figures like Stephen King and Tom Hanks are employed by the CIA to promote the "Oswald acted alone" theory.
You know if you take those pills the nice people give you those voices in your head will stop talking to you. Of course then you'll have to make real friends.
- That's quite the straw man argument you make R219.
- It's been posted before, but the person Oswald was closest to was his brother Robert, who visited him in jail the next day & significantly, got no denial of guilt. Robert - who has always said he would obviously love if his brother was innocent - has never wavered from his belief that Lee killed the president. But I guess - like Stephen King, Tom Hanks, & millions of others - he's secretly on the CIA's payroll.
- The mayor of Dallas had a brother JFK had fired from the CIA.
The mayor decided the route of the motorcade.
- That's some loyal brother the Dallas mayor was R223. To avenge his brother's alleged firing - and of course JFK's fingerprints had to be on the firing - he would risk staining his city's reputation in perpetuity. If I had a brother, that's the kind of loyalty I would cherish.
- [quote] The mayor decided the route of the motorcade
Really? It wasn't the Secret Service?
- "Who really killed JFK?
Oswald's "Patsy" line wasn't about innocence - it was the realisation that he'd been played like a fiddle, and set up by people with an agenda other than his...
Who they were? We'll never know...
- For answers to these and other iconic figures who were murdered, go see the play, "Last Call at the Conspiracy Lounge".LC@CL is a play that dredges forth some of the most famous people that ever lived and puts them in a bar for a meet and greet. Julius Caesar, Abe Lincoln, Mahatma Gandhi, Marilyn Monroe, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, John Kennedy, Lee Oswald, Robert Kennedy, Jimmy Hoffa and John Lennon appear and disappear at the CT Lounge. Their conversations are enlightening, absorbing, emotional, comical at times and highly fulfilling. When you see Abe Lincoln come through that door, Malcolm X and Martin Luther King hugging each other and trading stories, the beautiful and appealing Marilyn Monroe dancing with Jack, it makes them so real you might cry. Patillo has added small details to add to the complexity and authenticity of these living legends. You empathize and realize something of their mark on history and maybe even, how their lives affect you.
at 1515 Broadway, Detroit MI 48226 313.965.1515 for tickets or fistedmitten.com Video of the play is also in the works.
- Yes R225, it was the mayor who decided the route of the motorcade.
- And even then they got the story wrong R219. Hinckley didn't do it for Jodie Foster but to bring his friends the Bushes into power.
- Cord Meyer