- All of the above apply
- That's a damn good question!
- Too many options. They could have a relationship, but then they keep wondering who else is out there, thinking someone even better might come along.
- Every gay man I've ever known has partnered up with the first douchebag loser who would give him a second look, if only to avoid being labeled "single" which apparently is the kiss of death in gayworld.
- OP, I have no ideas whether there are more or less single gay men in NYC now than there were years ago- and I am 58- so I've been around since the 70s. Seems to me about half those I know are coupled, half are single=- in the present and in the past. Most my age now, are coupled.
- My personal feeling is that, because of the way gay men are socialized, a lot of gay guys are ultimately loners and not comfortable with intimacy.
- because they want straight guys
- Jesus Christ, OP -- you left out the answer.
Because men are pigs, and gay men doubly so.
The only gay guys I know who have been together a long time are in open relationships.
- #1 Fear of intimacy
You see to have sex with a guy is fine, but to actually do all that yucky hand holding and kissy thing...... that is soooooo faggy! Only girly men do that =)
- Internal and external homophobia.
- I do know a lot of gay couples. Not saying it's the majority, but really is an option if you want it.
- I am a, what fellow DL'ers call, an elder gay male. I was, and still am, a fairly good looking and youthful, outgoing, friendly person. I have lived a very hedonistic life, mostly in search of sex without any long term commitments. Something changed at around age 64; I met someone much younger than I and we both fell in love. At nearly 2 years into a monagamous relationship, I now feel that my life is fulfilled. My partner tells me he feels the same about me. Love just happened.
Old, Gay, and Happy
how about because there is no societal pressure to marry by a certain age, nor reproduce?
i have long been convinced that many straights marry because "it is time" and they are just expected to do that, whether they want to or not.
i am single because i want to live my life in a very particular way, because i like my privacy and being on my own, and because, frankly, i like to sleep around. i have many friends and a wonderful family, and i don't feel lonely. i see neither a need nor a desire for "the one".
- I prefer to be single. My long-term relationships were always more hassle and work than rewarding and worthwhile. I thought it was due to the guys I was with but maybe it's me. Who cares? I like living alone, hanging with friends, and hooking up when the mood strikes. My attitude may change, but for now, it's the single life for me.
- More like the societal pressure to not be gay, R13. Relationships are "gay".
That's it. It's internalized/externalized homophobia.
I'm reading these responses and they all echo that in some fashion. I'd rather be single, it's a hassle, why? Because people go "eww".
- because we aren't fish who need to be in some collective or "family" to feel like our lives are full
- The "sleeping around" is also a sign that gay men don't like themselves very much.
If you don't love yourself, how the hell you gonna love somebody else?
Can I get an amen up in here?
- They set their standards too high. They do not accept flaws, which we all have. They don't get past the superficial.
- Because it is just too easy to go around the corner and find someone else. Relationships = work, and if you are not willing to compromise, share, support and be supported, it will not work in the long term.
Now, on the other side of the coin, I have a ton of friends that are coupled (as I am), and all of them are having kids!
While I'm sure that bringing a life into this world can be very fulfilling, I don't understand why everyone is doing it. Heck, I'm gay, and I love not having to bend to societal norms.
- Which city? If it's New York, well there's your answer. Nobody there has an attention span long enough to commit to anything.
- The more acceptance that happens to gay men, the more likely they will have relationships.
Legalizing gay marriage is a start.
- "The 'sleeping around' is also a sign that gay men don't like themselves very much."
Wrong. It's actually a sign that they are just men. If straight women were as hard-wired for sex as guys are you would see a helluva lot more messy, wanton behavior in that realm as well.
- Too busy trolling Craigslist for "str8/bi/married. "
- Why does everyone on here see things as black and white?
There are many reasons gay men are single. Some PREFER to be single, some are always looking for a better option, some are self-loathing, some are more focused on other things. Considering you're all gay, I'm not sure why you like to stereotype everyone into one label.
"Wrong. It's actually a sign that they are just men. If straight women were as hard-wired for sex as guys are you would see a helluva lot more messy, wanton behavior in that realm as well."
No, you're wrong! Many gay men sleep around because they don't like themselves and they find validation by sleeping around. Not all, some are just horny, but some are messed up.
- I'd rather have a five or six good friends. Everyone I know who's partnered feels trapped in some way. Always having to account for where they are or compromising on where to eat or go on vacation. You lose your individuality in a relationship.
- We don't get pregnant.
- r25, I think that's an excuse. Yes, there are many who are in relationships just because they're insecure and would settle for anything, but if you found the "perfect" person who gets you, would you really choose to be single?
IMO, everyone wants to be in a great relationship. "Great" relationships only occur to a lucky few though and most people in relationships are doomed.
I would never settle, and would rather be single than coupled up and miserable, but if the right guy came along....
- People fixing you up never works. Ever. In the straight OR the gay world. So stop with the yenta fantasies.
I've been partnered, I've been single. You have a lot more time when single, and can live just as you want. But it makes you economically precarious, in danger of disappearing from the world - and that is dangerous, because we live in a highly social world. And let's face it, when you love a guy you want to be with him and all your independence doesn't count for anything.
I think the chief reasons are 1) people are connected to work and family and reluctant to have a relationship which disturbs that pattern - no matter what they say gay relationships do not get the support that hetero marrieds do; 2) gays can't rely on learned sex roles in overcoming destructive competition within a relationship, and that's hard. Straights know from childhood how to behave in stereotypic ways that reduce tension and conflict at the cost of patriarchy; 3) you can't "solve" diverging life goals if there is no "safety net" underneath the compromising party such as marriage, dependent medical care, etc. provide, although obviously a few gays have that now; and 4) no realistic expectations because gays actually know very little about what is out there. They don't know how many gays there are, what their realistic career prospects are, we are a people without reliable statistics.
- this whole marriage equality thing is just more matriarchal hegemony ... trying to create a paradigm where gay men live as if the world contained women.
- Pleated pants
- Because so many are emotionally stunted and do not have the capacity to LOVE someone else.
The word love has not been used once in this thread.
Without love it's just these strained "partnerships" that are mostly about the status of being "couple" and financial issues. These usually devolve into "open relationships" until the split.
- Most of us were damaged growing up. Makes trust more difficult.
- ha, love R26... let's face it, that is responsible for 98% of the straight relationships out there.
For me, I decided long ago that I make a truly great friend and a truly lousy boyfriend. The notion of taking on someone else's shit full time has no appeal to me (having made that mistake a couple of times) -- and, sorry, that's what it is, not "sharing my life" as the silly fraus say.
And it just never was a big priority: twenty years ago and today, the answer remains the same. If you give me the choice between the "love of my life" and a three picture deal at Paramount, I'm taking the Paramount deal. 'Cause I really want that (and don't tell me it goes away... so does the dude. Ask any and every relationship I know, gay and straight).
Do wish I could find some other equally self-sufficient guy with the same attitude -- but never works out that way. I always get the dull ones that only want to talk about the Relationship, move in after a week, call me with nothing to say and no questions to ask... I always wanted a boyfriend that's as interesting as my friends but no go.
- R31, what a bitch. I used love in my post.
- 5's want to date 8's
8's want to date 10's
10's only want to date 12's
and they are all bottoms looking for strict tops with 12 inches or more.
- Well, let me speak for myself...
I'm 55, not bad looking, but I definitely look my age. I'm ONLY attracted to people in their early 20s, who are unlikely to be attracted to me. I've priced myself out of the market...
So I have a lot of close non-sexual relationships, watch a lot of internet porn, and hire an escort every couple of months.
You can't force yourself to be attracted to people your own age.
- There are so many reasons. Many have been stated already. The average American gay person has sex for the first time at age 15 compared to heterosexauls at age 12. From birth to age 16 are people's formative years. Gay people are not learning how to be in relationships in their formative years. They learn to be alone and to lust after others. That pattern continues into adulthood for most. I think that is the largest factor. The second biggest factor is gay men don't think they measure up to other gay men's standards so they take themselves out of the dating pool to avoid rejection. The third biggest factor is gay men don't like the gay dating pool, they see gay men as damaged, lesser than, and not masculine.
- [quote]I've priced myself out of the market...
Uh, more like you're old stock.
- They are sluts.
- Variety is the spice of life. Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.
- Most men just want sex without hassles not love. It's all about what the body parts look like and what you do with them.
- Gay is a sexual orientation, not an emotional entrapment. It just determines what gender you sleep with. There's nothing about it that says you have to get stuck with one person.
- People like OP are disturbed.
You left out more relevant choices like
* it's none of my business, why do I have a pathological interest in other people not being single?
* I really know nothing about these guys' lives other than my perception that they're single.
Straight people - usually coupled, tedious, and deluded coupled people - think like OP when they're actually deeply unhappy and unsatisfied with their relationships but pathologically afraid of loneliness so they obsess over other people being single because they can't stand that they're free.
As someone who had what I thought what was a great relationship for 16 years, I had too much going on in my relationship to make judgments about single people. Now that I'm single again, I love it.
- 'mos cannot be monogamous so why bother. There were studies in the mid 80s and in 2005, where they tried to find 'mos that have been completely monogamous and they couldn't find any. The longest they found was three years. 'mos cheat and cheat, some stay together but most have open relationships or agree to cheat and not tell. That's why they all have the AIDS
- The #1 answer is that most gay men don't want to be "wife" in a relationship. Men, in general, don't like to be dominated.
- And what constitutes being a 'wife' in a gay relationship if I may ask?
- Being a bottom.
- I don't believe the human race are meant to be monogamous - that's forced upon us by religion. I honestly believe that monogamy is against human nature.
Unlike most heterosexuals, most homosexuals (F/M) do not feel the need to have offsprings and therefore are not forced to stay with one partner for the sake of the kids or appearance.
- I think men weren't meant to be monogamous, R48. Why do you think straight and gay male porn is so popular?
- R48, I'm not sure lesbians feel the same way about this as gay men do. Or do they? I think monogamy is more of a female thing in general, across the board, and if straight men could have their way the way gay men do, there would be a lot more "open" straight relationships.
- So many good reasons already mentioned. Why am I single? I live with my cat at my side. I have really disgusting habits when I'm at home (even my cat looks at me disgustingly sometimes like he's saying "If I wouldn't need you to open the cans of cat food for me I'd smother you to death while you're asleep. You, sir are a vile disgusting pig!").
In my family's past my grandmother and my mother were in abusive relationships where their husbands beat them (and me sometimes). Even nowdays I see relationships as entrapments where you are someone's personal punching bag. That's not a healthy basis to start a relationship with someone. And yet I am not willing to change that belief. But I have somehow the belief (or delusion?) that I will change instantly when the 'right man' comes along.
I love being alone and to be the only one using the kitchen, the toilet, or the media gadgets (TV, PC, etc.) and not having to defend the choices I made throughout the day.
- r37's comment reminded me of an article saying that priests go after teen age boys because they didn't have sex at that age and can't relate to adults sexually.
- r37 is full of shit, because no way does the AVERAGE American, gay or straight, start having sex at age 12 (outside of pedophile fantasies, that is).
And no way does getting an early start on sexual activitiy correlate with a propensity for longer-term later relationships. More like the opposite holds true.
Or was your post intended as an absurdist interjection into an already absurd debate?
The reason so many gay men are single is pretty simple, and it's already been posted. It's the same reason gay men engage in far more drive-by/ glory-hole/ one-night-stand sex than straight men: men like no-strings attached sex; women prefer sex within some type of relationship. Since gay men are dealing with other men and straight men are dealing with women, obviously more straight men are going to be in LTRs. The social support/preference for straight marriages is a subsidiary factor in this situation.
Oh, and r52, I believe that with priests it's the other way around: they became priests in the first place because they were totally unattracted to women, but very attracted to altar boys.
- [quote]The average American gay person has sex for the first time at age 15 compared to heterosexauls at age 12.
[quote] I don't believe the human race are meant to be monogamous
me second :p
- Mental illness is rampant amongst gay men. A lot of us, myself included, aren't equipped to maintain a healthy relationship with someone else.
- Since monogamy is such a hefty burden:
[quote]rates of HIV infection among gay men and other men who have sex with men (MSM) are more than 44 times higher than rates among heterosexual men and more than 40 times higher than women. Rates of syphilis, an STD that can facilitate HIV infection and, if left untreated, may lead to sight loss and severe damage to the nervous system, are reported to be more than 46 times higher among gay men and other MSM than among heterosexual men and more than 71 times higher than among women.
- Magical thinking.
Most of us, by definition, are average. On a scale of 1-10, the average is probably a 6 to a 7.
Well everyone wants to go up at least a level. So a 6 thinks he can get a 7 or an 8. Sometimes a 6 shoots for a 9 or a 10.
9s just want 10s, and 10s are few in number and often end up in mutually destructive relationships with other 10s which result in explosions caused by narcissism.
I am exaggerating, of course, but most guys really do engage in a form of this thinking when imagining their potential mate, whether in terms of looks, intelligence, income, etc.
There is a belief that there is always something better out there.
Even in long-term relationships, you often see one of the partners take off for someone "better" only to break up with them later on and see that their own (now shattered) relationship was pretty good after all.
We just aim too high because that's the message we get from lots of sources.
And too much porn which can dull us to the plain guy with the six-inch dick who might not be the greatest fuck but is the sweetest guy in the world.
So there, I said it.
- yup R58. Never happy with what they've got. Always looking for the bigger and better deal.
And no one moved to the city to find love. They moved there for work, or whatever they wanted to do with their life. So relationship takes a backseat and will never be priority #1.
- I believe that women are more cut out for serial monogamy than men are, but neither sex is cut out for lifelong monogamy. Of course, in each gender, there are always exceptions to every rule.
- This is one of those veiled homophobic threads. To read it, you would think this was a Christian Right site. Boys and girls, don't be so hard on gay men. They are really not that different from men in general. And I am not sure the OP's assumption is correct as I stated earlier.
- A large percentage of gay men are celibate or trying to be for a host of reasons, including fear of STDs. A huge percentage are celibate or not involved with males because of religious reasons, or fear of social disapproval.
- Also, while lesbians are seen as somewhat natural become women like to bond and form intimate relationships, society in no way supports non-family men bonding together in an intimate way for the longterm. To many, including gays, it doesn't feel natural. I have talked to bi and gay guys who just don't feel at ease being committed to a dude, so obviously they are unlikely to have real relationships with the same sex.
- Wow 51 is a cry for help.
Sweetums, cats do not feel shame and disgust the way humans do. The cat does not want to kill you because you are too big to eat. You'd spoil first.
- R62 BULLSHIT.
- And R64 is a cry to be beaten to death with the stupid stick.
- What a depressing thread.
- R51 you really need mental health help. While you may or may not decide to have a relationship you have issues to deal with.
The stupid stick should be reserved for R66.
- R28 is on to something when he points out that gay relationships can be really competitive in a way that straight ones are not. I've seen a long of chafing and competition in gay relationships -- not least about who can attract more partners.
The person who criticized OP for asking the question and told him to mind his own business seems grouchy and defensive. I think this thread is very interesting.
- I think it's a smaller market for gay men, so there's less to choose from to begin with.
There is no examples set for gay men like for straight men who observe or are told to have sex with large variety and then settle down , get married and have kids. Straight men have a blue print on what's expected. Gay men are on the fly.
Gay men are told they're sluts or damaged anyway so many who actually want monogamy have it in their heads that it's some impossible thing to get. The ones who don't want multiple partners are put down as losers.
Gay men have no one to nag them to stop looking at endless porn, so they end up getting very unrealistic ideas on what a partner should look like or act like. No man is good enough for them and measure up to their unrealistic ideals.
Gay men are encouraged to live shallow lives. There's no societal pressure to behave any differently. In fact, society actively discourage them to have committed relationships (saying no to gay marriage or civil unions) or have kids (denying gay adoption)
In the long run, gay men end up being very lonely by the end of their lives, forced to live in nursing homes which can be anti gay, because they chose to party and not have a partner who'd be willing to settle down with them through sickness, illness and old age.
- r70, that's a pretty harsh assessment, but i tend to agree.
Also unfortunately a lot of gay men don't honor the relationships that other guys are in. There seems to be an assumption that because you're gay you'll fuck around on the sly even if you say you're monogamous.
- Why are gay me single?
- I know very few people, gay or straight who are in a relationship that doesn't look hellish. Some seem to enjoy their lives of quiet desperation, but I prefer my solitude at home and lots of loving friends when I care to go out.
And as for gay men ending up alone in nursing homes, I'm thinking you've never been to a nursing home. They are full of heterosexual parents who were dumped there by their children. Old age is no more lonely for gays than straights - I work with the aged.
- r74 has Aspergers
- 17 year relationship here - not open, never has been. Everyone is different, of course. Happy, healthy and in love - Why can't we just accept people as the are, without classifications, without judgment, without condemnation. People who want to be in relationships are, people who don't aren't. That is the way is should be, for all people.
- All you have to do is read Datalounge and you see the reason why so many gay men are single. Who'd want such nasty and bitchy partners.
- [quote]Gay men are encouraged to live shallow lives.
What are you talking about?
- Media definitely encourages the 'slutty gay man' type in advertising, especially in hiv prevention advertising!
You see it at all events, it's like a wink to 'living for the moment' etc. Which goes in line with spending habits as well as sex. Music...etc
- gay men despise themselves
- I have no interest in heteronormative coupling.
- Because humans are not naturally monogamous.
- Because they fear death!
- cuz gay men are always looking for something BETTER.
- R84, did you find it?
- Good one R83
- yes i did r85. thanks.
- I can be a bit of a slut depending on the time of year, but I have found over the years that I like sort of building up friendships with the men I sleep with. Instead of one focused boyfriend, at this point in my life I like the safety net of tender friendships with fuckbuddies.
- OP, it's a matter of perception. I'm in a long term relationship, as are most of my gay friends. I do know a few perpetually single gay men, but they're more the exception than the rule.
- Most rich gay men stay single because they don't want to share their money.
- I also think gay guys are more selective today than in the past. Some gay guys are so narrow in what they expect that they effectively have no chance of finding a match. I know of guys that will never date a guy who identifies openly as gay; others say a guy has to be in the military; others say the guy has to be a black bisexual guy over six feet. I know a guy who says he is not attracted to any guy that likes music by female artists. Others only want muscular Arab guys who play lacrosse. The pickiness is so extreme and widespread that it is a wonder any guys partner with each other.
- I wish I could be one of those rich men r90!
- I agree with you, R91. I keep hearing that the dick wants what the dick wants, but I wonder if that isn't an excuse for not seeking a partner.
- I shall bookmark this thread and trot it out whenever someone wonders why the endgame for bi guys is almost always women - it will be a valuable resource.
- R90 = golddigger who's still waiting for a rich Mr. Perfect to show up out of nowhere.
- Many of the factors in this thread apply to straight men as well, and I question the assumption that straight = monogamous; gay = can't commit.
Why is the straight divorce rate something like 50% in this country? Why do so many straight men cheat on their wives (with hookers, in affairs, one night stands, whatever), whether that cheating ends up in divorce or not? Even if they don't cheat, they look at just as much (if not more) porn and set unrealistic ideals about potential mates as gay men supposedly do - you should hear straight men talking about the women they'd like to bang, how models are too thin / too fat, have no ass, etc. This applies whether they're married or not, but for some reason a straight man fantasizing about another woman (a hot co-worker, a friend, the babysitter) is considered the norm, but in gay men it demonstrates that they're shallow and "always looking for something better"?
In the end I agree that the major factor separating straight men and gay men is not their "nature" or their psychology, but the societal institutions and expectations that support and "constrain" them. Marriage is not only an ideal of monogamy, but a financial and legal restriction on mobility. Straight men don't stray (or try as hard as they can to hide the fact that they're straying) because they face a shitload of consequences if they do.
But, I also believe there are truly monogamous and loving straight men out there, just as I believe the same of gay men. And the more societal and institutional support there is for gay men to build monogamous relationships if they want to (and it's fine if others don't want to), the easier it will be for these truly monogamous and loving gay men to find one another and build lives together.
- When the old homos were very young they were in the closet and didn't date, instead using porn, they eventually fixated on one of a variety of "perfect" types. There was a book that described a gay bar as "a party for royalty that never comes"....every time the door opens everyone turns around...to disappointment. Thank goodness today's young people are out early, and dating....most that I know want monogamous relationships. Perhaps they won't suffer the same fate as you people.
- I like that gay bar description, R97. I also liked a description from another DL poster: "a room full of men ready to hate you for wanting them."
Bitchiness / bitterness aside, I'd like to revise my post at R96. In the end, I don't think monogamy is something in "nature", and you either have it or you don't - it's a choice. All men (and women), gay and straight, face temptation every day. There are always going to be objectively better looking, more intelligent, more sexy, more fun people out there than the person you're with, and it's natural and probably normal to fantasize about being with someone else.
But you make a choice to stick with the person you're with in exchange for their sticking with you. You give your word, something not to be given lightly, to focus your attention and your world on that one person so you can hopefully build something greater than the sum of you.
Maybe it's easier for some men and women to keep their word than others (just as some people have a harder time keeping promises and trust generally), but that choice and temptation is there for everyone, and the more that society supports and encourages gay men to make that choice, the greater chance of success they'll have in staying in monogamous relationships.
- OP, I'm a single gay male, and it seems like almost every gay guy I know is in a relationship. The vast majority for sure.
- Where do you live r99?
- R96, divorces are much rarer among the heterosexual upper classes. Money incentives, self-control and realism keep those marriages together.
Hell, at least straight people marry, then divorce. They give it a try. We're talking here about gay men who don't even take the first steps to find and keep a partner.
- First steps to what R101? Marriage? It doesn't exist for most of us.
- "Internalized Homophobia and Relationship Quality among Lesbians, Gay Men, and Bisexuals"
Research suggests that internalized homophobia also affects gay and bisexual men’s experience of sexual intimacy. Higher levels of internalized homophobia are associated with greater sexual depression, sexual anxiety, sexual image concern, and fear of sexuality as well as lower levels of sexual esteem and sexual satisfaction and are predictive of sexual problems among gay and bisexual men (Dupras, 1994; Meyer, 1995).
- That is why I don't understand the obsession over gay marriage, gay men will not get married
- R100, I live in Austin... the city of singles, and "one of the best cities to be single". Yet almmost every gay man I know is coupled. Of course, I'm in my 40's and so are most of the gay men I know (late 30's to 60's).
I have a handful of single gay male friends... we hang out more because we're single, than because we're actually friends in real life.
- Some prefer to be single. Some think they want a relationship but really prefer to be single. Some are looking for something that isn't out there. Others find what they are looking for - or think they have - only to find someone who either doesn't want a relationship or only thinks he does (and he can only delude himself for about two months tops).
- [quote]There are always going to be objectively better looking, more intelligent, more sexy, more fun people out there than the person you're with
That isn't why people cheat and/or can't commit to one person. They don't want better, they want DIFFERENT. People get bored with the same old thing. I love steak, but I don't want to eat it every day for the rest of my life.
Like the old saying goes, "even the most gorgeous person in the world has someone at home who's sick of fucking them."
Something that I haven't seen mentioned here yet is that all humans (gay, straight, male, female) enjoy the hunt--the challenge of seduction. It's intoxicating and can be addictive.
- Most gay men seem to subscribe to the belief that the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, mostly in terms of looks. I find gay men tend to base their ability to have relationship with a guy based first on physical attraction. Not that physical attraction isn't important, but there's also the fact that many gay men tend to overestimate their league.
- I do not enjoy the hunt. At all. I hate dating. I hate the unsureness, the "does he or doesn't he", the "will he or won't he" crap. I hate the insecurity of it all. I *hate* Dating with a passion.
I cannot fathom how anyone can enjoy that nightmare.
- For me, it's very simple.
Imagine a venn diagram where one circle is "Every guy I'm even remotely attracted to on any level at all". The other circle is "Every guy who is even remotely attracted to me on any level at all".
The two circles simply do not intersect. At all.
So I'm single.
I also couldn't date anyone who didn't know what a Venn Diagram is
- Sure, all humans enjoy the hunt - gay men by a factor of about 30 to one compared to everyone else.
One poster had a good point. If women let men pick them up in streets, parks and restrooms after making eye contact, hetero social life would be a lot different.
Of course know that many gay men don't do this, but they certainly do it more than straight men and women.
- gay men are still very promiscuous
- [quote]Sure, all humans enjoy the hunt - gay men by a factor of about 30 to one compared to everyone else.
R109 would disagree with you and contradict this statement rather strongly.
- Not saying there are not exceptions, but come on -- gay men do get around more than other groups, for better or worse.
Oh, and the exceptional guy said he hated "dating," which is different than "hooking up."
- Because most gay men in the US are shallow users who only want to get their rocks off but refuse to give of themselves in any way.
Whether it's due to internalized homophobia or just general sociopathy, my experience has been that most gays in the US are manipulative and untrustworthy.
I've found the gay men in other countries - Canada, parts of Western Europe where I've lived and travelled - to be much better people.
Of course, Americans in general are horrible people, so it may just be the culture.
- R115, that's because of years of hate homophobia directed at gay men. You can't expect years and years of oppression to create an adjusted, emotionally stable group.
- Yeah, and thank you for the crude America-bashing apropos of nothing, r115. If you have ever spent any time on DL, you know that this place is highly critical of America, so no need to slip in cheap shots.
- To add to R116's point, straight men are at the top of the sexual pyramid and our culture gives them carte blanche to be as selfish and manipulative as they'd like to be in their pursuit of sexual partners (provided at some point in their lives, they toe the line and produce legitimate offspring -- and all you have to do is look at the American underclass to see just how sexually indiscriminate and irresponsible straight men act when they aren't pressured to do right by some woman and take care of their children.)
It's only women and gay men who ever seem to get called on the carpet about this shit, and I'd wager the vast majority of the sexual dysfunction we as groups exhibit is as a reaction to the horseshit that gets dumped on us by straight male culture.
- [quote] The two circles simply do not intersect. At all.
Perhaps it is time for us all to widen our circles.
- R119, my circle is pretty wide. If you've seen any of the people I've ever dated, you would have no recourse but to admit that perhaps my circle is a bit TOO wide.
Still doesn't change the fact that the circles don't intersect. Or if they do, the set of people in the intersection is vanishingly small, such that the chance of me ever meeting them is remote at best.
I've pretty much accepted this at this point.
- [quote]Like the old saying goes, "even the most gorgeous person in the world has someone at home who's sick of fucking them."
Ha. Never heard that one before. Love it.
I'm promiscuous because I love the challenge and excitement of hunting for different hot, white, hung, masculine guys to get off with.
I recently found someone I wanted to be in a relationship with. Supposedly he wasn't even hung (we never got that far). I wouldn't have cared. I was under his spell and would have absolutely committed to him, whatever that means. He fled, though, so it's a moot point.
- I am 47 and single and unfortunately unemployed, so in NY I am single not by choice but due to my situation.
That being said, even when I worked I found most men within my age range to be aging not all that well - I mean getting older does not mean one has to look like shit, dress badly and not shave - look at Anderson Cooper or porn star Arpad Miklos, or Michael Lucas, all older men who take care of themselves and look great.
- I agree with your posts, r96/r98.
- R13 gets it right. Societal pressure is major
- Agree with r118.
- Bullshit on the "Canada is better" crap. It's just a different experience for you because you were on vacation. Everyone has a better time on vacation because they're willing to experiment and be more outgoing. Vancouver at least is a pretty fucking horrible place to be single gay man.
- um, r126 - I've lived in Canada. The men (the people in general, in fact) are of far better quality than they are in the US.
I can't speak specifically to Vancouver because I've never been there, but I can definitely state that I know very high-quality gay men in Ontario and Quebec, many of whom have been in relationships for years and some of whom are raising children in those relationships.
I know all of one guy - single - in the US who's raising a kid, and he's a middle-aged Orthodox Jewish club gay who adopted a child from Africa.
So yeah, I'm sticking with my comment that Canadian guys (and others) are better catches than Americans.
r-whatever I am, can't be bothered to scroll back
- [quote]I know very high-quality gay men
Someone needs to unclench and let the baseball bat slide out of her ass.
- Gay Marriage is also legal in Canada. Raising kids without the rights of marriage is not just complicated but very VERY difficult.
Few people, even in Canada, would be up for doing it.
- so, you're a racist, r121. interesting revelation, dude....
- No, r130. Preferring a white partner for sex doesn't make you a racist any more than preferring a man for sex makes you a misogynist.
- That misogynist comparison doesn't fly because you're born with an innate preference for men. You weren't born with in innate racial preference. That's learned.
- [quote]That misogynist comparison doesn't fly because you're born with an innate preference for men. You weren't born with in innate racial preference. That's learned.
A preference is just that: a preference. I'm turned off (sexually) by effeminate men. So am I prejudiced against them? Is that "learned"? I can't control what I like.
- Yes, that is learned. It was reinforced by your environment and society so you shun femme men.
- Oh, gimme a break! So every preference we have should be unlearned so we can all be attracted to everything? That makes absolutely zero sense.
- [quote]They set their standards too high. They do not accept flaws, which we all have. They don't get past the superficial.
I read this sentence and immediately thought about my best friend. He's a real sweetheart of a guy but he's only interested in muscle guys with perfect bodies. To him anything less is a complete turn-off and automatic rejection. So be it.
What makes it so frustrating for me is the fact that I, against my better judgment, have feelings for him. And being so tired of the gay dating scene myself (I'm 47), I can't help looking at him and lamenting the fact he's so unwilling to give us a chance to be something more than just friends (non-sexual friends at that; we've known each other for almost a year now and have never had sexual relations and I doubt ever will have). The problem, as stated before, is that I'm not "perfect" enough for him -- I'm a nice-looking guy but only have an average build (a little belly on me), but do go to the gym 3 times a week, walk a lot, and keep myself in fairly decent shape for a guy my age. Okay, fine, but what never ceases to amaze me is the fact my friend isn't perfect either -- he has a belly, too (a small one but it's there) and a receding hairline (he got hair plugs years ago) but none of that has ever mattered to me; I actually think his flaws make him adorable, but though I'm willing to overlook his imperfections, he's never been even slightly willing to overlook mine, so it's still a no go. And it's a shame because other than that, we have such a great relationship -- we "get" each other as the expression goes, have so much fun together (including traveling together), and basically want the same things in life, but will never be able to kick it up a notch to the next level and pursue them as a couple. I would obviously but he refuses to even consider it (I asked him once about us "going on a date" and he got really mad at me, so I've never mentioned it again). He'd rather spend all of his time chasing after younger guys (he's 41), some of whom fuck him and then never call him again, after which he bitches and moans to me about how he "can never meet anyone who will love me" while looking past the person in the room who already does.
I do date lots of other guys (no wallflower here, trust me) and my friend was very supportive of me a couple of weeks ago when I lost my mother, so I do intend to keep him around. But as I said it's frustrating, chiefly because he and I could both be off the dating market with each other instead of still waiting and hoping for someone new and wonderful to come along who may never show up.
- Sorry for the long post. I miss the days when we could preview them first!
- I am 51 and now single because my partner just died. I have no desire for a relationship right now. Perhaps in the future.
- [quote]Oh, and the exceptional guy said he hated "dating," which is different than "hooking up."
I hate both.
- r136 sounds like you should stop focusing on your friend and maybe look for someone else.
Cool it with him for a while. maybe that will make him miss you and rethink things.
- It just turns out that people who say they are attracted to only one race tend to display racist sentiments and tendencies in other areas. It's not credible to claim that your physical attractions are the only area in which you practice racial discrimination.
- I'm a lesbian and sometimes I wish this were the case in the lesbian community as opposed to all the U-Hauling that happens.
- [quote] It's not credible to claim that your physical attractions are the only area in which you practice racial discrimination.
Bullshit. This sounds like what every black man says when he wants to nail a white guy/girl. Am I racist because I prefer blonds with blue eyes? Because my second choice is everyone else, regardless of race. It isn't discrimination to prefer a redhead over a blond or green eyes over blue so why is it racist to prefer light skin over dark?
- "Bullshit. This sounds like what every black man says when he wants to nail a white guy/girl."
Uh, no, but it sounds like you have a white superiority complex nonetheless. You are not the center of the universe nor THE standard of beauty or desire.
- R144..rather than insult the poster tell him why you feel he is wrong, if in fact he is wrong.
- Showerless weekends = single forever.
- Er, racial preference derail aside (we've had huge threads about that subject before), I like the point someone made earlier about how minorities like gay men and women are criticized for the same behavior exhibited by the straight male majority because of their power and position in society.
Question: what do you call a person who is attracted to, likes to flirt with, and/or have sex with different people and isn't committed to one person?
Women: "Slut", "whore", "promiscuous", "trash"
Gay Men: "Slut", "shallow", "emotionally damaged", "always looking for the next best thing", "sets too high standards"
Straight Men: "Player", "Stud", "just being a man", "red-blooded"
- Sorry for your loss, R138. That is a huge reason a lot of us are single, especially that age or just older (even if AIDS is not how you lost your partner). We lose the love of our lives or even our best friend and it changes us. For a time or forever. Perfectly normal and just life so don't listen to anyone who tries to tell you to get out there again or whatever.
As for sexual preference, I for one must say my sexual ideal -- blonde hair, small nose, big mouth -- is based on the first guy I ever had a crush on/fell in love with. I didn't stay locked to that but he will always be the ideal, even 30 years later. :)
- You must love trouty-mouth, R148
- Gay men are damaged goods, thanks to the repressive society we were brought up in. Society creates violence and hate in the name of religion.
- [quote]look at Anderson Cooper or porn star Arpad Miklos, or Michael Lucas, all older men who take care of themselves and look great
Wow, R122. While I agree that men over 40 should make an effort to look good, your named role models are 1) a closeted celebrity newsreader and 2) aging porn stars/escorts.
I'd suggest there are a lot of other reasons you're still single.
- ha, is Trouty-Mouth that Chord Overstreet guy on "Glee"? Yeah, pretty much my idea of physical perfection. Ditto model/actor Boyd Holbrook.
- r150, move to France@!!! your kind of country!!! lol
- I'm single because all I meet are guys that want to fuck me with no strings attached. I don't know how to find someone who wants a relationship.
Single for forever
- I did meet a guy once who was just perfect for me. He was smart, tall, muscular, nice furry chest and legs, big dick, funny and had a great job.
But his grammar was atrocious. He once sent me a love note in which he expressed his satisfaction with our romance penning "its beautiful" in truly awful penmanship.
A paragraph later he said that he wanted to "to happily share our lives together" and that really did it for me.
A split infinitive.
I couldn't. I just couldn't. So I took a red marker and corrected those and four others errors. I sent the note back with a lovely note which read: "I am so sorry. This is not working for me. I will miss you."
He ended up with someone who does internet/computer things and lives in a ghastly townhouse in the West Village when he's not at their farm or in their flat on the rue Jacob in the 6e.
He probably calls it "there" flat.
- I'd W&W R155, but that's too long for the side-bar.
- Because this society, my family included, looks down on us... it's easier to be single than to be seen as a gay guy. We're hated more than black people and mexicans combined... but when we're single, we're treated, for the most part like any other white person, we can escape from that oppression and hatred... but it comes at a high price... of being alone.
- [quote]17 year relationship here - not open, never has been.
Sure I believe you. Not. I tricked with a guy last year who was in a LTR, however his bf didn't want sex as much as he did, so he turned to Craigslist.
I'll never buy your claim that you don't have an open relationship. Maybe that's what you think, but your hubby is whoring around.
- I don't think being single is the major problem for gay men. I think it is the fear that deep inside they feel that really connecting with another gay man is impossible. We have no real role models. And for most of us real connections were broken the minute we knew we were gay. That knowledge cut us off from feeling safe and connected. That is one reason we are attracted to straight men. We think they are strong and that the right one will protect us and keep us safe.
One can only really connect with another person when he feels safe inside and out. I think that being a gay person in this country is a hard lot. Americans are natural bigots, and bigotry is stressful. It is a brave man who can walk around all day feeling comfortable in his own skin. Maybe we wouldn't be single if we felt equal to our straight kin. Really equal. If we don't demand it from ourselves we can't ask others to do it for us. Or expect them to save us.
- [quote]That is one reason we are attracted to straight men. We think they are strong and that the right one will protect us and keep us safe.
Where did you come up with that horseshit? I have never felt like I needed a straight many to "protect" me and keep me "safe".
- R160 I didn't say everyone. But your reaction makes me think I hit a nerve.
- To add to what r147 and r118 said, women and gay men also seem to be constantly called out if they're attracted to a man for anything other than his heart and soul. Women are called "golddiggers,", "whores," etc, gay men are "shallow," "damaged," etc. In contrast, straight men are encouraged to pursue women solely for their looks, "trade up", and always be on the look-out for the "next best thing."
Of course, such behavior is indeed shallow, but straight men never seem to be called on it the way everyone else is. On the contrary, they seem to be applauded for it.
- They don't have stable jobs. No stable job, no honey.
- R161.. way too much pop psych, hon. Maybe what you said make r160 react because it's absurd. Straight men protecting us and keeping us safe? That's like a cliche about what some straight women are looking for. Unless you're talking about fathers but that's another story.
- Because gay men don't need to use the boring, obsolete institution of marriage to be happy.
Women are the ones who seek out marriage, children, monogamy, etc. If straight men could have it their way, I think they'd live a more gay male like bachelor lifestyle.
- Straight men *have* had it their way and they're the ones who came up with marriage. Many of them may not like being beholden to the constraints of monogamy themselves but they certainly expect it and demand it from their women.
- There are a lot of single straights, too. Is the percentage of single gay men higher than straights?
- "Because gay men don't need to use the boring, obsolete institution of marriage to be happy."
Every study that comes out have shown that not only are men happier in marriage (much happier than women) they're also healthier as well. So quit using that as an excuse to continue to be a whore with your phoney baloney ideas on monogamy and children & women.
When they try living your so called bachelor lifestyle it all turns to crap for them, that's why you'll notice that when they get out of one relationship they quickly try to get into another. They voluntary choose to commit because that's also in man's nature.
- Here are some of those results: "Married patients receive treatment for cancer in higher proportions and they show greater survival rates after therapy than unmarried individuals.
A study by the University of Miami examined the survival rates of men who had been diagnosed with prostate cancer. Findings showed that married men survived longer over a 17-year period than men who had never been married."
"On the other hand, the health of divorced and widowed men deteriorated because of marital stress. However, for divorced men over 50, remarriage offers great health benefits, restoring their health to the level of never-divorced married men."
Now these are (probably) not studies of gay men, but it'd be interesting if the results were replicated.
- R168. That's only because they now have someone nagging them about seeing a doctor and reminding them to take meds, etc. I'm convinced my MIL kept my FIL alive for the last 20 years of his life by monitoring all his meds, his diet, doc appointments, tests, etc. He had several heart attacks, quadruple bypass and eventually wore a pacemaker. He would have just let it all go if not for her diligence.
- Most straight men need marriage to be happy because they won't do anything for themselves. They need a woman to cook, shop, clean, do laundry, make social engagements, get them to take their medicine, and on and on. Of course they die earlier if they are single because they eat crap, drink too much, live in a pig pen, aren't forced to communicate their emotions or to go see a doctor.
I think this is changing in the younger generations, but for those over 40 I'd say it's still the dominant way to need a wife or live-in girlfriend to take care of them.
Most of the gay men I know are much better at taking care of themselves then straight men of the same age and economic situation.
- r162 has a major victim mentality.
- [quote]Every study that comes out have shown that not only are men happier in marriage (much happier than women) they're also healthier as well.
They're talking about straight married men. THey're happier because wifey does all the cooking and cleaning and shopping and looking after the kids, except when Dad wants to show them off on the weekends at the little league.
- r173, have you ever actually - er - KNOWN a straight married man? Or actually talked to one?
- I had a gay role model growing up, R159. He basically taught me everything important in life as a teen: always having a job, not relying on others, the importance of education, speaking well, acting professional, being a productive good person, etc. But, he was openly gay, and he said that was the most important thing to be as a gay person. He was the only gay person I knew from when I was a young teenager.
He had a huge impact on my life not only personally but professionally. I really believe his influence changed my outlook on myself and how I live my life. So, I agree with you, gay role models are extremely important. There needs to be more.
I'm open to dating most guys. But they have to at least be "available" to me... and they are not. I'm capable of attracting a guy but they are usually attached, or they don't want anything serious. I want intimacy and closeness in a relationship, I want a best friend in a lover--and those things are too difficult to find.
All the comments in here perfectly point out the problem: gays are jaded and too picky.
The kiss of death for dating life-I can't tell you how many times I see online: don't email or contact me if you are X...Y...Z
I'm already in a "relationship" and I'm only looking for a hookup
I don't have issues loathing gay sex or my attraction to men
I am out to the most important people in my life, my parents who are supportive and love me
The problem is I am not Perfect, and gays have an unrealistic expectation in partners.
Being gay is terrible. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I'm sick of being gay.
- That is BS @R162
I have many straight friends, and relatives who married and committed to their partners or girlfriends because they are interested in something than a bedroom partner. They are guys, but they aren't guided by their penis. My father has been married to my mother, MONOGAMOUSLY for the past 32 years. And they still have sex with each other--and they are getting older all the while; so if straight men were superficial, they'd break up with their partners as soon as they gained weight or had developed wrinkles... it is not a straight guy thing. It is an immaturity thing.
- I've chatted with guys, and most argue why they won't get involved in a relationship: "I just want to live my life with no regrets and without missing out on anything...."
Yes, that would involve sleeping around and being adventurous. But that argument cuts both ways, is it out of the realm of possibility that could be applied to finding a partner you love and adore? You are missing out on that!
- Gay men tend to value freedom over pretty much everything else. I'm willing to give some of my freedom to have a monogamous relationship and most guys I meet just aren't. They want a perfect boyfriend who won't make demands on them at all. It's really too bad because a lot of us are alone not by choice but because there are just so few gay men out there who are ready and willing to be in a relationship.
- Monogamous gay guy here. Been in a committed relationship for 11 years. I call bullshit on the simplistic claim that guys are just guys and are hard-wired for sex. A lot of promiscuity stems from self-loathing. A lot of guys have tons of sex in a neverending effort to find validation from other guys. Sex and the resulting validation becomes like a drug. I think once a guy can work through his self-hatred at being gay and come to accept himself as something other than inferior to other men, he can open himself up to a committed relationship. If you don't love yourself, you're unable to love anyone else...total cliche, but it's true.
- The real secret to a successful relationship: don't live together. Preferably, live next door to one another. It's ideal. Give a lot and overlook minor issues/problems/flaws. Support each other. Laugh together. Take great vacations. Cheers!
- Most gay men are not mature enough for relationships.
Most gay men suffer from low self-esteem and they go out of their way to sleep with other men in order to be validated.
Relationships, for the most part, certainly in the straight world, are overrated. What's the point of being with someone who annoys you simply because you don't want to be alone? I'd rather be alone than share a limited living area with someone who can irritate me.
Most straight couples spend very little time together, as a couple. Most couples are just illusions: both husband and wife work. If they work the same shift great but their shifts might be different which means they won't see each other a lot. One of the two might work on weekends as well. The wife takes care of the kids, food. Husband takes care of house or other separate chores. They have different hobbies, she likes shopping, he likes sports. Some straight couple sleep in separate beds and have separate bathrooms and separate TVs. In the end, if you could calculate the number of hours a husband and wife actually spend alone together it would be very low. There are more divorces during retirement than any other period with couples because the husband and wife have to spend all their time with each other and they realize that they've been strangers and did extracurricular stuff to keep them busy and away from each other. In other words, it's all an illusion. The kids grow up and everyone moves on. So why would gay men go through that?
Ideally, I'd love to meet my soulmate but alas it's more fantasy than reality.
- "The real secret to a successful relationship: don't live together."
This is definitely working for my partner and I. We have been together for 3 and a half years now. I live in manhattan and he lives right across the river in Jersey City. We spend every Friday, Saturday, and Sunday together and really value our time together. Talk/text every day, of course. We love our time spent together, but we also like our alone time during the work week. I couldn't be happier.
- I've been in a monogamous gay relationship for 25 years, over half my life.
Truthfully, the reason so many gay men are single is the same reason the straight divorce rate is over 50%. Standards too high. And don't go assume that means the bar should be too low, there is a middle ground of having standards and yet accepting people and their flaws.
I've read threads here where the subject is "what is a dealbreaker for you" and the comments are 1) leaving the toilet seat up, 2) being cut or uncut 3) weight (nobody at 40 is going to maintain their 21 year old body weight), 4) snoring 5) type of career 6) type of music, so on and so forth. I can tell you for certain that these are the perpetually single men.
It doesn't mean lower the bar for just anybody. But the ability to accept differences is to rigid for some. Also, getting back to the divorce rate, we live in a society now where things are disposable and guys and girls, straight and gay, have adapted to that. It's easier to cite irreconcilable differences and start over. Older people lived in a time where if something was broke, you didn't throw it away, you fixed it. That time doesn't exist anymore.
Since many gay men can't get married or have kids, they have even less tying that relationship together. It's easier to just end it than it is to work it out.
- My last date told me I snore like a feral pig.
Could that be it?
- I think there's a lot of truth in R186's post. I also think a lot of guys pretend that casual sex and open relationships are an escape from heteronormativity. Sometimes this is so, but usually it's not. The same guys I've encountered who rail against heteronormativity are usually into very heteteronormative sex and gender roles for men, which seems fucked up and hypocritical.
- Each person is on their own unique evolution. There are as many points of view on this subject as the number of people who are replying. No one is right except for themselves however when the majority of answers tend toward a negative response , which is how we've experienced the devastation of Aids, we should know that our thoughts , our actions, have been in error. If we can have sex without spreading disease and mental degradation , but still respect each other , that is a first stop toward a creative way of life, however when we become more enlightened, we will go in the direction of loving relationships.
Paul from Houston
- Everyone is a bottom and bottoms don't marry other dizzy bottoms.
- R190 owns this thread.
- Because most gay men have an over-inflated opinion of their hotness and think they're an 8+ and should eternally wait for an 8+ to fall in love with them. I'm not a bad looking guy at all, and I actually have a personality, but I've been shot down by guys who think they could land a Channing Tatum when Bruce Vilanch (but without money or fame) is more like it. I mean - really. Who are they kidding?
- R192...and who are you kidding?
- They haven't found the right girl and career takes all his time and Mascavige doesn't like any of the candidates
- Maybe OP just doesn't know enough people. Why are we taking his view that there are lots of single gay men? Maybe he just knows single men and the couples are at home and he doesn't meet them.
Most of the gay men I know are in relationships, many of several decades (including my own). Most of these couples are monogamous. But I wouldn't generalize from my experienc
- Because relationships between men work very badly. Usually they break up when they get bored with sex, which usually happens quickly, because they are used to having easy sex around and get bored easily of doing it always with the same person.
The few couples that do last usually have no sex, but personally I have seen very few long-lasting couples, despite being gay myself and quite experienced.
- AD = Album Dumbledore?
- Once you hit your 40s, companionship is more important that sex, at least it is with me. I did all the whoring around when I was younger. I no longer have the desire or energy for that kind of lifestyle anymore. I'd much rather travel the world, or go out to eat and a movie than stand against a wall in a gay bar looking for a trick.
- Lovers are more important than tricks after a certain age.
- The reason is SO many of them suffer from borderline personality disoreder and the even worse schizotypal personality disorder. No one wants to be around that. That's heavy.
- Why is there so much psychological bullshit on this thread?
I don't see any threads calling straight single men over 40 psychotic or borderline or whatever.
You know why people are single, don't ask the obvious OP.
Someone chooses or not to be single out of loneliness and mistrust.
- What city?
Is OP under the impression that DL is some sort of regional website? How idiotic. We have many posters from other countries and continents, let along throughout the US and Canada.
- Lol 203, don't be so harsh!
Be good ffs! Why you got pissed off?
- I agree with the poster that said straight marriage has a 50% survival rate. My father has been married 4 times. I'm single but most of my friends are partnered. I go and visit them all the time. It doesn't necessarily make me want to sign up for another hitch. You have to get your needs and wants together. Do you NEED a partner or do you just WANT one. It's better to want. My Dad "needed" a woman in his life. I've had three or four LTRs but have been single for a while now. I like it. But I was always a loner.
- R205, You are sincere with yourself and that is enviable. For many people, it's so difficult to realize or accept that they are loners.
Of course that doesn't exclude the fact that something can happen for everyone and for anyone is possible to find the right person for themselves. Life is unpredictable even in our routine. I believe in luck too and in happy or miserable accidents.
- They love a Saturday Night!
- these gay guys usually have avoidant personality disorder. Same syndrome for the freakish straight guys. The best show in the world is listening to how they blame society and others for their lack of true relationships.
- Easy, let Dan tell you.
- Savage makes some good point, monogomy possible, but a new concept and do not ruin a good relationship if someone messes up.
- Society is to be blamed. We are all to be blamed actually because we are not good enough with each other as it seems from some hateful and overly the top critical posts some people send in here.
- so many cocks, so little time??
- Because gay men all grew up with issues stemming from their 'little secret'. Then, by the time they get out of the closet AND get comfortable with themselves, they are in arrested development mode for a very long time, sometimes forever.
It's a horrible thing to live in a society where you are viewed as wrong.
So, by the time the gay man starts looking for a mate, they are going to have higher standards than normal because they worked so hard against their lifetime of discrimination and they feel they DESERVE a PERFECT guy.
Of course, many gay men aren't self-actualized enough to realize the above issue, and they dither about with the same tired ass attitude, giving shade, sometimes very friendly shade, to anyone that looks at them who doesn't fit the ideal.
This tired ass attitude is very often enabled and supported by their tired ass friends.
Lather rinse repeat.
- Infidelity isn't necessarily about the sex, but the lies, deceit and betrayal. It's the idea of "cheating" on someone that is the real knife in the heart so to speak.
- most of us are mentally ill to some extent,also i found gay men to be the most selfish and incosiderate people i have ever encountered.
to tell you the truth,if i was straight,i would be a militant homophobe.
we are given death sentences in most countries.maybe they are right.
- Maybe because many other gay men don't have passports?
- R215, STFU.
- We have been married since 2002 (with a 2.5 yr divorce in the middle) to a handsome, well-built 41 yr old Latino with massive un-cut sizemeat and humungous sperm-loaded heavy-hanging man-balls!
- There is nothing so picky as a moderately attractive gay man. They are ruthless about excluding anyone even remotely less attractive than themselves because of how they feel it will reflect on them in a culture that prizes looks with an adolescent intensity.
- What happens to all the single gay men who die of old age? You never hear anything about them.
Are there lots of gay men in nursing homes?
- 220 i have red that it sucks to be in nursing homes if you're gay-there is homophobia and exclusion.
did you know that when the nazis imprisoned us in camps with the other unwanted,the others were abusing and avoiding us?tells you a lot about human nature,huh?
217 why should i be quiet?did i remind you of yourself?you can`t run away from yourself dude.
- Because men are pigs
- You said pretty much what I was going to post R219. Many gay guys only want Mr. Perfect Looks.
Gays should be tender with each other and stop being so fucking egoists when it comes to their needs. If you don't work for a relationship, it's not going to work out by itself. Gays should be more humble and less stuck-up.
- Unrealistic expectations, both on who their partner should be and what the relationship should be.
- There's no natural reason for a gay man to need or want a one on one relationship. Our pairings are the result of the nurturing we experienced with our heterosexual parents. Being gay delays the development of adulthood by a few to several years, depending on the person. This too reduces the likelihood of permanent pairings happening. We won't even get into the effect of the damages many of us experience just coming out as gay, but these too limit the prospects of long term pairing among us gay guys.
It may change for future generations, but I tend to doubt it. I think more of society will be like us rather than us becoming more like them. It has everything to do with personal securities and fewer feelings of need.
- I may have already shared this on this thread, but I am not so certain gay men are any more single than straight men or women or gay woman. I do know that there are many many more single adults in the US in 2012 than 1975 as a percentage of the total population.
- People who say "Thread Closed" should be taken out back and beaten.
- Ok, after going through this thread again, it seems like there are three categories that make up the large amount of single gay men...
Group #1: Gay men that are single because they are whores or sluts
Group #2: Gay men that are single because their standards are too high, and they cant live up to their own standards
Group #3: Emotionally damaged/distressed gay men
Which category are you single men under?
- Variety is the spice of love in my opinion. I've never understood why any gay man would want to saddle himself with the same guy exclusively long term. What's the point of being gay if you're going to tie yourself down like that? Leave that to the straights. As you can see, most of them are miserable in their long term relationships. LEARN FROM OTHER'S MISTAKES!
- R230, please tell me you're under 30? Otherwise, you're just pathetic. Who wants to be trolling Grindr and bathhouses at 50?
- R231, I think it's refreshing that gay men shun traditional relationships/monogamy mores. People have become so browbeaten by the boring monogamy/marriage default model, that they are absolutely SHOCKED that other alternatives exist.
Gay men should stop acting as if excessive freedom won't hurt nobody, cause it even hurts themselves sooner or later.
- So many bottoms, egocentric about their assholes looking for anything to go up their ass.
Bottoms can't marry other bottoms.
- "They want one but are repulsed by their peers?"
Most of the posters in the poll picked this one. I get it. Ageism happens everywhere, straight, gay, I don't care. My father's been married four times and the latest one is two years older than I am. I've always been interested in guys my own age (up there) but I can't score in a public setting. Maybe at a friend's barbecue or something. I, however, will talk to anybody and I'm just wondering...how many people out there (of any age) are willing to date guys their age?
- R231, did I say you had to troll bathhouses and Grindr to find playmates? No, I didn't. There's enough stock available through the normal ways of meeting people that anyone who has any level of conversive ability should be able to hook up constantly.
And no, I'm not under 30. In fact I'm far past it.
- once a gay man is 50 they should just kill themselves
- That would be 10 years too late.
- R237, come on sugar, don't be dramatic.
Being single can be a blessing in disguise sometimes. Some single gays are very decent and i respect them a lot. It's all about the attitude that matters and the quality of one's life.
- They're still men, and don't want to be tied down. In hetero relationships, the woman holds it together. Gay men are also incredibly shallow. A lot of people go through conversion therapy due to how the gay community functions, or doesn't function, on a personal relationship level.
- The first US gay marriage ended in divorce. They didn't even make it a year.
- I honestly believe that all of us are refugees from some great and pro-longed war. The war may seem to be over, but the mopping up is going to take a while.
All of us have been damaged pyschologically and emotionally from decades of discrimination, ridicule, cruelty, bullying, and lack of support from family and friends. It will take a couple of generations to achieve stability in our realtionships, and we are well on our way to achieving that.
Even those rare birds who haven't seen or felt the sting of hate have been affected in subconscious ways. We'll get there!
I love us!
- Straight men may be more likely to be in relationships because theirs are socially sanctioned, but I'm not convinced their attitude is any better or different. Men, in general, are always looking for the next best thing, even when the best they'll ever get is right by their side.
- Older and mature gays aren't interested in other mature and older guys. They can say they are but when it comes down to it.....
- 244 that's your fear. It doesn't happen all the time. I mean, you can be attracted to young guys, it's natural but you can also be attracted to a person of an older age. It's all about chemistry between you and the other person, not a matter of age. Of course when you are as old as a mummy, you have to forget sex and focus on other pleasurable things.
- The two most common reasons I have experienced over my 56 years of being gay is:
1. No one man can satiate a brittle prick and a craven rectum. Scientifically impossible.
2. By the time the average gay guy 'grows up,' he's too old for 99% of the remaining gays. The remaining 1% have already been institutionalized.
- I cannot even imagine what R246 thinks he just said. Can we get Nurse Cheryl to adjust the dosages at the Home?
- R246, for how many of your 56 years have you spoken English?
Does a "brittle prick" crumble at a touch?
And for fuck's sake, "craven" does not mean "craving," "hungry," or "lusty." It means weak and cowardly.
- I'm not R246, but I get the feeling that he was making an attempt at figurative language.
Speaking for myself, there are more satisfying things in life than relationships. I'm open to one, but more or less content to go about doing other things (job, hobbies, et cetera) first.
- All of the above depending on the individual. You can't lump all perpetually single gay men together.
And often they want one but can't find one that works.
- Gays are generally train wrecks. Superficial, shallow, self-absorbed, and immature. They only care about the latest trends and have no substance, much less value, to anyone with a quarter of a brain.
If you are over 30, you are pretty much invisible, if not dead. The ideal range for gays is 18 to 29. If you're over 30, you better be rich and in God-like shape.
Gays are always looking for the next best thing and a "relationship" is no different. Gays are not wired for coupling up unless it's a one-night fling.
Gays deserve to be single and the ones that "want" a relationship should stop trying: It's not going to happen. Not now. Not ever.
- There are too many slobs in the gay community. No one talks about the boner factor. Gay men want to get boners from looking at you. Most gay men don't realize that. They think they can mind fuck gay men. Somehow they are going to attract and keep gay men by their intelligence and personality. Once you go beyond major city limits you will find gay men to be out-of-shape and/ or fat mostly. There is no pressure for gay men beyond metropolitan areas to be physically in shape.
On the other hand, there is a large group of gay men who are totally deluded in their standards. They want masculine men and they think only heterosexual males have that therefore they don't want to date gay men.
- because all the gay single men are looking for guys who are like heterosexual men and not gay men.
- R251 is a jaded little fool.
I only really got started dating men when I was 28, and now at 42, I've had a fulfilled life, two long term partners, and am back into dating. I'm seeing three different guys at the same time now...with one of them I like a lot.
Every single guy I've been in a short or long term relationship with, and all my fuckbuddies, are all above average to incredibly hot looking, and they all have brains and good jobs.
I'm really glad I didn't listen to people like R251 when I was younger, or else I would have decided I was dead and invisible at 30 too. The truth for me was actually quite the opposite.
And no, I'm not in perfect shape, and I'm not rich. I'm pretty average, but my general confidence and humor manage to get me through many doors...
- Because it's illegal to knowingly spread AIDS
- Interesting letter and response here, good advice...
(really hope the link works)
Dear Ray...why am I single?
- Ok, that link sorta didn't work. Scroll to page 42/43.
- Because most of the hot masculine men are either 1) closet; 2) bisexuals in relationships with women; or 3) heterosexual.
- Glad to see Eric Cantor and Aaron Schock collaborated on R251.
- You are wrong on all three counts, Mary r258.
The real reason is very simple: They are already taken(because they are hot, of course)
- As R251 said: "Gays are generally train wrecks. Superficial, shallow, self-absorbed, and immature."
Quite true. Just like straight people.
- Most men who are attracted to men are deeply closeted and/or in denial. The notion of significant number of men publicly identify as non-heterosexual is very recent and still not represents the minority of men who are same-sex oriented. Having so many bi/gay men in denial severely reduces the number of same-sex coupling opportunities.
- Maybe because my partner of 16 years dumped me the day after election day. I gave him my youth!!
- Don't forget the part where many of the gay relationships on display are extremely unappealing. Think of Calvin Klein and his boytoy. Think of the couple who proclaim their love for each other and are constantly on Scruff. Think of the couple that have been together for ever but haven't had sex in a decade. The homely but rich guy paired with the hot young thing.
You see this with straight couples also, but they don't generally have the freedom to pursue alternatives. We don't have biological clocks ticking, we don't have a timeline for our relationships, and we get to have the relationships we want rather than the ones our parents or friends push us toward.
Why do you see this as a bad thing? I'll always prefer being single to being in a bad relationship.
- [R254] said, "my general confidence and humor manage to get me through many doors..."
Yeah and apparently you are being *shown* the door more often than not if after 14 years of dating you are still single at the age of 42.
Prime example of why gay men are single (and rightfully so).
- Because other fags are always so willing to judge other people's relationships that they know nothing about but think they do. Read this thread.
- [quote]Yeah and apparently you are being *shown* the door more often than not if after 14 years of dating you are still single at the age of 42.
Why should there be a time limit to becoming partnered?
How would you know the reasons for my partnerships ending?
And why would you emphasize being a married GAY man? Why so defensive? You appear to enjoy 'putting me in my place', simply because I'm single at 42. You don't sound too mature yourself. At least I'm owning my demons...
- r265, you make it sound like every single gay man should be married, like we're all female characters in a 1950s Hollywood melodrama. Does it ever occur to you some gay men actually enjoy being single?
- No, R268, I think he's entirely directing his ire at me, because he thinks I'm bragging for its own sake, and felt the need to knock me down a peg by touting his own married status as proof of his maturity and bad assness.
I WAS bragging about being an average guy who gets lucky with guys, because I was refuting the notion that you're dead at 30...I only just woke up at that point, lol.
- Most gay men are mentally ill and only a few of us seek treatment.
- Mentally ill in what way r270?
Avoidant Personality Disorder
Low self esteem
- r262 speaks the truth.
the number of 'out' sissies is perhaps 1% of total sissies worldwide.
- Bullshit r45, most men are dying to be dominated. But they want it authentic - they want to be put on the bottom, not to have to ask for it.
- I am single because I am pretty frustrated and disappointed with my gay experiences. I wished that they were better. Unfortunately, I have no control of how others deal with me soo I remain single until I get treated better.
- [quote]Maybe because my partner of 16 years dumped me the day after election day. I gave him my youth!!
You shouldn't have voted for Romney.
- I cant answer from some else but on my casa when i was on my 20 s i wanted be available for every body i was horny all the time and i was addicted to meet the next new guy who could be better than the last one .now on my 30s i do want a relation and not be single no more but most people at my age are still looking for sex or many are still very inmature and superficial it is to hard find the right one yet and i can forget how to fall in love and i am to use to be alone
- Gays are only interested in young hotties. If you are over 40 and average looking, fuhgeddaboutit!
- I have a question. Do guys past 35 who've given up on dating still check out the online dating sites?
I'm thinking of posting and plunging back in but the pickings over 35 seem slim - just on a volume basis, not on looks or anything.
So if I post are there essentially lurkers who might come out of hiding /despair/skepticism for a decent guy? And I am actually a decent, stable, nice looking guy. I just hate Palm Springs, man made nipples and lycra. Also monogamy doesn't make me panic.
- Gay men are selfish. To be with someone, it requires a commitment, to share, to give, to accept, to forget, to forgive, to invest, to accommodate. Many singles are not willing to do so. I am partnered for over 15 years, and over the time I learned that it is important to forgive shortcoming, to sacrifice, and conform. Through our relationship we had lows, but it makes our partnership stronger. We do have sex regularly, and we built a life together. Single gays demands too much from their potential mate, not satisfied with look, dick size, sexual position, money, standing. Once you hit a certain age where you live only by yourself, it is almost impossible for them to have any relationship.
- R13 for the win.
R280 is a delusional prick who doesn't realize people like him make being single all the more appealing.
- Agree with R280. Selfishness and impossible demands are at the heart of why so many of us are single. I do a lot of online dating and most of the guys are gone by the 2nd or 3rd date even though I'm willing to keep going with about 80% of them. In low moments I think there's something really wrong with me, but then I see so many other 40-somethings like me, all single. What are we all waiting for, Mr. Perfect? I can get sex partners easily but trying to get a boyfriend seems nearly impossible.
- Come to datalounge and take a look around on any given day. The average gay man has the personality of a hyena with the expectations of Naomi Campbell circa 1989. They think they deserve nothing but champagne, caviar, and red carpets, while contributing nothing to society but their self appointed expert "opinions" on art, fashion, and anything else upon which they deem themselves authorities. Woe and betide the person who has a gay man as a boss. Gay men abuse authority without conscience. Miserable, sad, drug and alcohol addicted, shallow, misogynistic, racist, fascist excuses for human beings who do nothing but complain, put everyone around them down, and wonder why they all end up alone, buying rent boys and fake orange tans and botox as everyone around them enjoys the lives that they look down upon as tacky and "flyover," but which actually bring joy and fulfillment and lasting love into old age.
- r283 really went in on you bitches. You need to pay attention because r283 is serving some realness concerning what the problem is. Matter fact, some of y'all need to print r283's post out and recite every night before bed....it should take care of that upset tummy.
- r283=angry lesbian who rarely leave the house.
- To Truth Hurtz [R283]: you nailed it correctly. Gay men are generally disgusting creatures and behave the worst manner to each other. Gays like to judge others, spread hatred, and absolutely lack compassion. They envy others their happiness. No wonder that many of them - if majority are single out there. Look into statistics where only fraction of households are made by same-sex couples. They choose to be alone and will carry their loneliness to their grave.
- I could never settle for someone who didn't share my enthusiasm for bareback porn, Madame Alexander dolls, and FOLLIES.
- Albert Redneck is that you at r285?
- R282 online dating are generally worthless. People behave differently behind the internet and in public. If you want to meet anyone seriously, you will need to get among the people: to bars, sports and social events, and through other people. Minority of gay men do online hunting. If city of 8 mil like NYC has only 200-500 or so men online at any given time, you miss the good majority.
- R289, you make a good point about meeting people in person, but gay bars are worthless for anyone over 35, unless you're only looking to hook up. You just don't meet quality adult single men in gay bars.
- Lez here. You guys are being too bitter and hard on yourselves. Yes, many gay men can come off superficial and shallow, but you are going overboard with the genocidal Naomi Campbell references. I know partnered gay men who enjoy common interests and pleasures. And single ones who are kind and thoughtful.
If gay men have a fault (that goes along with perfectionism and attention to detail) it is getting hung of on little things that don't really matter.
"Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible." -- Dalai Lama
Be kind to yourselves, it ia a start.
- Gay men can be horrible to each other, and that's a FACT! I find datalounge to have some of the shallowest, nasty queens on the planet as posters, and some of the best guys out there.
Online dating (among gays anyway) can work, but the odds are rigged against the seekers.
- [quote]Come to datalounge and take a look around on any given day.
R283, you really need to get out more.
- R115: I am British and I have dated men all over the world. American men are just like everyone else. There are good ones and bad ones. Mostly good, in my experience. Remember, you only get back what you give. You seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder. I feel sorry for you, mate.
- All you have to do is read some of the comments on this site to find out why so many gay men are single - because so many of them are mean, nasty bitches.
- 251--you are ridiculous. I am 47 and have been hit on a lot in bars by hot 20 something guys. So, one is not invisible after 30. Far from it.
- A lot of people think a "relationship" would "complete" them! They know everything they're looking for in a partner. Unfortunately most of them give little or no thought to what they BRING to this imagined fairy tale ! Sad but typical(sigh)(eye roll).
- Well, Why are most of the guys I fuck straight and married?
- This is a bit like asking, "Why are so many Black guys thieves?" Are we just supposed to take the premise at face value, and not question it? Maybe the problem is YOUR assessment of gay men. Maybe you just attract assholes. Or maybe you're just stupid. There are many possibilities. You should list some of THOSE in your survey.
- Because I am only attracted to 100 percent masculine dudes, which means I am only attracted to straight or bi guys who don't want a relationship with a dude.
- Most couples I know who have been together for a while all cheat on each other so they may as well be single. As someone pointed out- it's like a magnet.......opposites attract and bind together-same poles don't and can't. Most gays are also safe hating....even though they deny it.
- Wow. The responses on here are 10 times nastier and more stereotyping than if you'd asked the same question on Free Republic.
- I wonder what percentage of the guys here would agree with r300.
- Yeah, I do, definitely!
As for the gays on here, you mostly sound like bitchy queens not even a dog would want to fuck, but that's for another thread...
- For a while I thought something was wrong me because I wasn't able to meet that special someone. As time goes on and I'm in my early 50's I feel differently about being single. I like it. I'm comfortable in my own skin. I don't have the need to be in one.(relationship) and I have friends and family who love me unconditionally. And most of all I'm happy. And I wouldn't have it any other way. I'm just grateful for what I have and not worry about things that may or may not happen. Enjoy each moment that you are alive, because happiness comes from within not from someone bringing it to you.
- I am "single" because I am not heterosexual, and I do not want to try to emulate heterosexuals with some sort of "gay" marriage. The men that I fuck don't get knocked-up so I don't have to "marry" them. You must be aware that the reason for heterosexuals trying to live in monogamy is usually that the woman got knocked-up?
- R306 That's not true at all. Many monogamous hetero couples have no children. Some men just finally get bored with screwing around and want to settle down.
You have to realize that most men are not Hugh Hefner, pro sports player, rock stars or politicians so they don't have a bevy of hot supermodels or even regular attractive women throwing themselves at them. It's not as hard as you think to stay faithful.
There's nothing wrong with being single. But the instinct to pair up has very little to do with emulating heterosexuals. Just look at how many gay couples have been together 35 years or more even when there've been no possibility of ever getting married.
There's something about having someone around when you've just been laid off or a parent has died or you've been diagnosed with cancer. To have someone there to hold your hand and comfort you, that can beat getting off with a stranger every single time.
- because gay men want their cake an eat it as well. they lie cheat and deceive,,therefore are not trustworthy. They like liking a stranger's ass and genitals more than someone they actually know. There is a sickness in their brain i would think from seeing and reading some of the pictures they post
- I think many gay men must be riddled with disease...they exchange body fluid with way too many people...they have no morals or ethics about others and could care less if they pass disease amounst each other
- [quote] Just look at how many gay couples have been together 35 years or more even when there've been no possibility of ever getting married.
- People look for ideal partners they want, and they want it all: looks, sexual dynamo, rich, powerful.
But no one could live up to those standards. And chronically single people, are single because they have too high standards for ANYONE to live up to.
Gay men succumb to this problem, like anyone else.
- Well gaybros do not hang out with other gays. So, I would imagine many gaybros are single. I know a lot of gay men, however who are partnered for 30 + years. More partnered gay men than single.
- [quote]And chronically single people, are single because they have too high standards for ANYONE to live up to.
Or the just don't feel the need to be half a couple.
You could say that chronically coupled people are so insecure that they will completely suppress themselves just to make sure that someone else is always there for them.
- It's internalized/homophobia for a lot.
- Most guys I see are partnered up. And fucking around on the sly
- Do gays really care about gay marriage? I do, but I want to get married. But, on the whole, do gays really care about gay marriage? Seems not having it does really change anything for most.
- I'd like to see some scientific study done about this and not a bunch of people on DL pretending that the "information" they are presenting is some scientific fact instead of just their opinion based on the limited amount of people they know.
The majority of gay men I know are partnered and are monogamous. I don't know a lot of single gay men.
But I would hardly say that qualifies me to make some of the statements that some people are making in this thread from their just-as-limited point of view.
And of course the anti-gay slimeballs are posting frequently as well.
- I know many older gay men who have been together for decades. I know one couple my age, 33, who is open. They are closeted to all of their friends, and at work. One of them was married to a woman for ten years, but he's still self-loathing. I don't associate with them much anymore.
- It's all opinions and uneducated guesses on here R317. We don't even know if there's a huge amount of single men out there and even if there are if they've always been single. Lots of people go in and out of relationships and their singleness for example, could just be a state they're in in between long term relationships.
- They don't want to put in the energy needed to maintain a relationship, much easier to hit it & move on to the next as soon as things aren't smooth as buttah !they are out. This goes for straight guys also. They would rather be old & lonely, then ever work on a relationship & believe me All relationships require working together to keep them working.
- [quote]But no one could live up to those standards. And chronically single people, are single because they have too high standards for ANYONE to live up to.
Further to this, people who say they just have "high standards" are insecure and are looking for an impossibly sexy and successful mirror to admire themselves in. People commonly look to others to find what they think they themselves lack.
- But on this thre R320 people are making their educated guesses out to be reality.
- Damaged goods. Past sell-by-date, expired?
- The answer isn't always so simple. I was in a LTR that lasted about 14 years. I've been single now about 8 1/2 years. I just haven't found anyone I've clicked with in those 8+ years. I've dated a few guys but it just hasn't worked out to be something long-term. Yet I constantly have people asking me why I'm single as if I'm defective. It doesn't seem to count that I was in a LTR for nearly 14 years. I would prefer to be in a relationship, but after this many years alone, I'm not sure it will happen as I march toward 50. And if it doesn't, that's just the way it goes.
- First of all, straight people should stop trying to set their gay male friends up. That is a really dumb idea, you always get it wrong. I'm sort of masculine, so my friends, that were girls, would set me up with very effeminate drag queens. How does that work? Butch with fem? As I get older those rolls diminish thank god, but if you're going to set me up with a drag queen, I like them butch.
Second of all, two people should have a little something in common for a relationship to work. You can set up a Madonna/Britney Spears loving queen with gay guy that loves MotorHead...and they are out there. But, it sounds like a match made in HELL. Although, the sex might be real good.
Third, Have you had a long term relationship with a man? Its like being forced through obedience school. The butchest guy cries when he hurts his little toe, but won't lift a finger when your arthritis flares up. Its amazing more gay men don't cheat.
Fourth, women should never be commentators to a relationship breakup. You girls always make it worse with your Cosmopolitan view of relationships. Before girls give gay men relationship advice..they should evaluate their own relationship history, sanity, and knowledge of gay history and people.
- "How does that work? Butch with fem?"
Ask ANY lesbian!
- Because they look like,but are,less interesting than,a shovel.
- [quote]I'm sort of masculine,
I'm guessing no. Your friends are fixing like with like.
[quote] so my friends, that were girls
They were girls?
[quote]How does that work? Butch with fem? As I get older those rolls diminish
Try exercise to get rid of those rolls
- The truth is that over 90% of the gay people will never have a long term relationship. If you are reading this blog then you must be interested as to why this is true. (i am gay and with someone ... so don't start bashing me for my opinion) I think that most gay guys don't have the ability to feel for others. I am sick of TV showing nice caring gay guys... when it's not true. I have dated a lot of guys and NONE have been nice or caring... where they get this Sh*t is beond me.
- I think the biggest barrier and the primary reason is cultural stigma.
- R330, over 90%? That's bullshit. Most of the gay men I know are in relationships, many of them very long term.
This whole thread has been full of statistical bullshit quoted as truth when it's all anecdotal.
And, yes, my evidence is anecdotal as well. But your 90% figure is full of it.
- It is because ... of an issue that is NOT your fult. I order to have a loving relationship you must be able to love. I don't think you have the ability to do this. so in your case it is better to get a cat.
- Well, my partner of 16 years just dumped me, so that's why I'm single.
I GAVE HIM MY YOUTH!
- Gay men are even bigger pigs that straight men, more selfish in every way.
That's the truth.
- you will spend the rest of your life alone with your cat. By the way PLEASE give your cat to a loving family. You are what is called a sociopath. This does not make you a bad person. It is a personaly disorder. However, It is better that you spend as much time as you can by yourself. Try NOT to be around other people because you will only hurt them.
- r336? Wanna elaborate?
- Now Matt, I think you exaggerate.
- I'm single by choice.
I recognized early on that I had some serious issues when it came to relationships. Grew up with a violent alcoholic father and my mother was in and out of mental hospitals all throughout my teens.
Did years of therapy myself and was never able to get past a lot of the crap from my childhood and decided that it would probably be better if I didn't inflict myself on anybody else.
Now I'm so set in my ways when the random thought that maybe it would be nice to meet somebody, I immediately dismiss the idea.
I don't take and refuse to let friends set me up with people.
- Because even the ones who are not single, are "single." Been on Grindr lately? Most are partnered/married/dating but still on the prowl. Pretty much every coupled guy I know in real life plays on the side. I'll stick to my fb for sex and to my friends for companionship. Romance is dead.
- Gay men suck. You get the sexual promiscuity of a straight male, coupled with the hyper-emotionalism of straight women.
La Femme Lolita
- Wow I sounded really wise back when I was R28. And R155 on this thread was an outstandingly amusing post.
Now I just want to pants some of you because it would be funny.
A lot of you say "gay men have too high standards" and yet I picture your platonic gay friends typing the same thing about you twenty posts later.
A lot of you say "Gay men are shallow" but you admit you are unable to converse in small talk and have no dating game to get past the initial hurdle of communication aside from sex.
I think gay community centers need to hold classes not on "dating for gay men" but on Communication 101 for gay men.
That's where we need to start.
- Im sorry if I rambled, but Ive had a lot of thoughts about this recently...
I was watching a series of documentary style interviews with young gay men around NYC. These were attractive, around the way guys. It was a little shocking how most of them got around to saying that they hate how they look. To the point where they isolate themselves on a regular basis and cry for hours over it.
I think homosexuals are in a precarious social situation by design, being attracted to the same thing we want ourselves to look like. Or maybe its more of a generational issue. These guys can go online and find just the type of guy that stimulate their sexual senses the most, and satisfy themselves. But that doesnt replace human intimacy, and sure enough all these guys said they wanted to be in love more than anything.
Most of these guys said they were sexually abused as children too. Having all these issues as an adult male makes it very difficult to even prepare yourself for a healthy relationship. Thats not even counting the other social adversities that kill self esteem.
- A lot of gay men fall under the spell of "there's always someone better around the corner". While that may be true, it doesn't help the cause of permanence in a relationship.
- Because we're all whores.
- Since there's no women involved to get all marriage obsessed, things just don't move forward!
Actually, I do believe lot of gay gus over 45 years old just didn't come of age in a time where long-term same sex relationships were as popular or expected.
And yes, sometimes if you don't meet the right guy by 40, I do believe one is shit outta luck. Just like straight people, the odds go way down as one ages.
- The odds do go down after 40. However, you just have to know what pool to pull from if you are seriously looking for a LTR. Basically you either will meet a man who is out of a LTR for some reason that is not primarily his fault (e.g., partner cheated on him, partner had emotional issues that he couldn't resolve, etc.) or not his fault at all (e.g., partner died or he got dumped for a younger model). The other pool is the recently out, like guys who are married and then came out at 40-plus.
I understand that it is important that you be attracted to the guy you're with, but sometimes when you get to know someone they become more attractive or an attraction develops. It doesn't always have to be the coup de foudre as the French call it; that strike of lightning. Some gay men I know who whine that they can't find a relationship refuse to date anyone unless they meet their definition of HOT. Not a prescription for finding a mate if all you're concerned with is the superficial.
- I try. I always end up pursuing guys that just aren't that interested, and the only guys that go after me i'm not attracted to.
- well for us straight guys looking to meet a good woman to settle down with, it is very hard to meet a good one since many of them are lesbians today.
- [quote]well for us straight guys looking to meet a good woman to settle down with, it is very hard to meet a good one since many of them are lesbians today.
If only that were true. As a lesbian, I'm finding very difficult to find a suitable partner.
- OP's questions paraphrases the exact thing that Bette Midler said about gay people years ago, and yet Bette is raked over the coals for it. Why don't we just admit that a lot of gay guys like being single, and who cares?
- Die, straight man at R349. We hate you.
Of the 10 gay friends that I have, only 2 aren't in relationships. Granted, one of those 8 relationships is a farce - 'open', but giving open relationships a bad name - but the other 7 seem pretty solid and affectionate.
- So true
- At least "matt" is gone, "matt" the homophobic troll posting his fantasies as truth.
- Top 15 Reasons That You're Still a Single Masculine Gay/Bisexual Man
Discreet City | By Nicholas Delmacy
A huge misconception that people have is that dating is easy for a Gay/Bisexual man. So many women right now are trying to play cupid and get the only two Gay people they know together as a couple. I mean, why not? They have so much in common: They're both Gay.
This is far from the case. In fact, Homosexual Dating is MUCH MORE COMPLICATED than Heterosexual Dating.
For example: When a man meets a woman in a bar/club and they go out for drinks the next day, there is NO QUESTION that its a date. When a Gay man meets another and they go out for drinks the next day, that's NOT a date, they're just "hanging out."
What the fuck is "Hanging Out?!"
This is the kind of semantic nonsense we have to deal with that Straight people do not. Other examples are "Friends First", "Friends with Exes" and "Antiquated Gender Role" bullshit that plagues gay culture like Cancer (I'll cover each of these in other posts). Don't get me wrong, dating women is no walk in the park. However as a man who has dated women in the past, I can tell you that it is in no way full of many variables and complications as when dealing with Gay/Bisexual men.
So I've compiled this list of The Top 15 Reasons That You're Still a Single Masculine Gay/Bisexual Man. This is intended to not only educate heterosexuals on all the shit we have to deal with...but to also shine a light on the potential reason/reasons why you Gay readers may be hopelessly single.
This is the main killer of all potential relationships and even basic platonic friendships of many Gay men. You only need to briefly scour the many profiles on Gay dating sites to discover the laundry list of requirements Gay men place on one another. The most disturbing part about this is that MOST times the men are demanding prerequisites in others that they themselves do not even meet. Guys seem to all want this perfect fantasy "Superman" that they've created in their minds to "save" them, that more likely than not doesn't even exist. No one is perfect, not even yourself.
Many gay men will agree: Chatlines are for Hookups. Dating sites are for Hookups. Cell Phone Apps are for Hookups. Clubs are for Hookups. The large percentage of men you meet through the aforementioned methods will most likely just be looking for quick no-strings-attached sex. That's not to say that hookup sex never leads to relationships, but the chances for it are low. Check out our 10 Level Guide to Meeting Masculine Men to find out alternative ways to meet men for more than just sex.
Look into the mirror and honestly ask yourself if you are worth the effort. You say Yes? Now look at your cell phone...is it ringing off the hook with potential dates? No? You have your REAL answer...All jokes aside, no one is attractive to ALL men. We all have different tastes and preferences and something as simple as a poorly chosen tattoo around a belly button can soften even the hardest penis of a masculine Gay/Bisexual man. Focus on depending on more than your appearance and you'll find that more quality men will emerge.
See the remaining 15 Reasons That You're Still a Single Masculine Gay/Bisexual Man, In Just One Click.
No one likes fruit and vegetables that aren't ripe yet. No one likes undercooked food. Many Gay men see anyone 25 and younger as disasters waiting to happen, with good reason. At that age they are like horny puppies humping the first legs they see. It eventually passes with time, but not before they're potentially all used up. Alternatively, "Desirable Gay" seems to have an expiration date. After 27 years old, you're like an old loaf of bread: your edges start to harden until you are 40 and you're ready to just be thrown into the trash. This is how many Gays view older men. I say all this to say, there is an ageist attitude amongst Gay/Bisexual men that goes both ways (pun intended). This reason has no solution. It all comes down to what your intentions are for the potential relatio
- R254 here.
I'm just re-reading this thread, and what strikes me is how most people posting have avoided talking about the obvious...
Sometimes you end up meeting someone special...not perfect...but special. Some one person that you really like being around, someone that makes you laugh, someone you want to have lots of sex with...and who, in a crisis, shows themselves to be a good person, and worthy of all that time you spend with them - a keeper. What's better is that you can find yourself becoming a better person just by being with them, communicating with them, and sharing your life with them. This DOES happen to people sometimes...and it's called a relationship. It's real, it feels good (usually), it changes your life, drives you crazy at times, but you both feel that it's worth it - so you keep going...until it runs its course or until one of you dies.
That does happen to gay men at times...and I think that this is what many of us really want. A lot of people on this thread are pretending that they don't, and are claiming that single slutty behavior is the only way to be, and labeling a generally healthy gay relationship as 'heteronormative coupling'. This sentiment really ignores the fact that if/when you meet someone that you really click with, and it actually develops into a mutually respectful, loving relationship, ALL the shit talking in this thread really just floats downstream.
Love is where it's at, as much as we wish to ignore it.
- The closet and self-denial is a huge impediment.Most guys who are attracted to guys never really publicly acknowledge it, and that means they are out of the dating pools. It is a devastating fact that has implications beyond dating, especially with respect to political and social progress.
- Because most people feel as though others won't understand them. And they don't.
- Spot on, R356! I met someone a few months ago and I feel all those things when I'm with him, as he does with me. We know we have something special and we're going to work at it in the future to keep it. Right now being together involves no work at all because we're in the honeymoon phase. But we want a life together and are prepared for the work it involves. We both know what it takes as we've had past LTRs.
Love is indeed where it's at!
- I have never experienced so many judgemental, bitter and (internalized-) homophobic comments like the ones seen in this thread.
- I agree, r360.
I hate this thread. (My own fault for opening it when it pops up, I suppose, but whatever).
Really, if you asked the same question "Why are so many gay men single?" at Free Republic, I think the responses would be less hateful and homophobic than some of the ones here.
Get help, people. Stop hating other gay men. It is not healthy.
- Because most are in denial or in the closet.
- The closet is the biggest reason, and just plain denial.
- [quote]I think homosexuals are in a precarious social situation by design, being attracted to the same thing we want ourselves to look like.
I think this is huge wall many gay men have to learn to climb. This is the mentality that leads guys to say things like "my standards are too high". They're not. You're just chasing what you think you don't have and you'll never be satisfied.
- But the smoke got me and I got bronchitis. Ain't nobody got time for that.
- SCABIES! How the hell did I get SCABIES?!!!
- [quote]I think homosexuals are in a precarious social situation by design, being attracted to the same thing we want ourselves to look like.
I have never been all that attracted to what I wish to look like. I am pretty average looking, and feel pretty confident in my own skin, and I find I'm actually more attracted to guys who are just in average shape as well - they take care of themselves, but aren't obsessed with their bodies. That's really hot to me...because...if a guy is spending a lot of time thinking about his own body and appearance, that means he will spend VERY little time thinking about you or your relationship with him.
- Wow, there are alot of bitchy queens on here! No one wants to date a bitchy queen, regardless of their age or hotness. I would rather date an average looking guy, than date a hot guy with a negative outlook on life. Life is too short.
And life is not over for a gay man once he turns 30 years old. Channing Tatum is 33 years old and many gay men are obsessed with him! Richard Gere was 39 years old when he starred in Pretty Woman back in 1990 and he was extremely sexy. Mario Lopez is 38 and looks better now than during his Saved By the Bell days. Christopher Meloni, who is in his early fifties, didn't find huge success until he was around 40 years old, and alot of gay men, even now, find him to be quite sexy. James Denton from Desperate Housewives became a sex symbol at age 41. Johnny Depp and Brad Pitt are both nearing 50 and most gay men would kill to have sex with them. Anderson Cooper is over the age of 45 and is still labeled as a silver fox. Not to mention, Hugh Jackman, Will Smith, Danial Craig and Robert Downey Junior are all over the age of 40 and still are very attractive and handsome. To be honest, I find all of them to be more attractive, than Taylor Laughtner and Justin Beiber.
If you take care of yourself, eat right, work out, stay away from drugs and smoking, dress nice and limit your alcohol intake, a man can be sexy well into his early 60's or even later. And you can always make changes in your life to make yourself look better. If you are over-weight, go to the gym and start working out and eat healthier. Not only will you start to feel better about yourself, but you will look good too.
Also, if you want to find love, it takes two to tango. It takes work and effort. Nothing is easy in life, especially romantic relationships. Also, when the honeymoon stage is over, it's important to accept the flaws of your partner and learn to deal with them.
I think these bitchy queens on here are never going to be happy until they start seeing the bright side of life. Just because you are shallow, does not mean all gay men are like you. You can't generalize all gay men in this World. And also, chasing straight men is a waste of time. They aren't interested because they are straight. I personally have been romantic with a few masculine gay men in my lifetime. They do very much exist. There are plenty to go around.
I believe there are alot of gay men out there looking for relatioships, and not sex. I'm one of them. I like sex, but I love being in a relationship. I'm not looking for sex or love right now because I'm focusing on getting my degree and getting a good job. But once I accomplish my goals, I'm looking to find a man to possibly marry.
- I generally agree with that r368 is say, yet I still want to tell him to get a blog.
- Because I'm black.
- [quote]"The 'sleeping around' is also a sign that gay men don't like themselves very much."
Wrong. It's actually a sign that they are just men.
True men want to get laid all the time. Plus one incentive to go long term is making kids but even though adoption is an option there really isn't the same connection or interest in that whole process.
- I cant speak for every gay man, but in my circle, its because we are too picky. We would rather be single than to settle for someone who doesn't meet our criteria. I dont necessarily think its a bad thing.
- hi i am looking a partner in life here i am asian bisexual men..i am searching a serious gay man that have a good heart and want to settled down...i am honest and romantic to the one i love...looking for a good man only..here my number +639066449558 ..hope i found the right guy here o skype liljohn129 email email@example.com...wait you
- Because they think the biggest dick is just around the corner.
- Because there aren't a lot of very masculine gay dudes, and guys are attracted foremost to masculinity. There are even fewer masculine gay guys who are physically attractive AND not in the closet.
- R 375 nails it. There are too many nellies
- It's funny. But so many guys I know drop the whole "not settling" thing while bemoaning their unyielding singledom. However, most aren't the adonises they think they are. By any stretch of the imagination.
And beneath it all it seems like they simply just want to fuck whomever, whenever, unencumbered by a partner who might get in the way. I really want to scream this at them sometimes.
Yet they still continue to complain about their current state of affairs. Essentially whining about not being able to have their cake and eat it too.
- The New Pew Research Center poll shows that a huge percentage of LGBTs are bisexual. In fact, bisexuals make up the single largest chunk of LGBTs, and a huge percentage of bisexuals are married to or in relationships with the opposite sex.
- Part of the problem is that gays and lesbians make up a small percentage of the population. We have a smaller pool from which to choose.
- Misery is not attractive.
- Because we all have a lot of fucking issues, and it's difficult to find a man whose issues are somehow compatible enough with yours to make it work long term.
- I don't like to compromise. I want probably too much. Why want a relationship, isn't it straight institution? Seen too many gay relationships ending because gays tend to sleep around.
- Coupledom is over-rated.
- Once you have been single for a while, it is difficult to get used to other people in your personal space. The compromise element does not come naturally to many.
- My best friend yesterday told me he's actually considering "switching" and finding a woman to marry. He's 42 and already so afraid of ending up alone, plus he truly feels gay men are incapable of real love and relationships whereas finding a wife would be "quick and easy." When I told him doing this would also make him unhappy (because he's gay and loves men too much to ever be content with a woman), he said he didn't care, that the alternative -- being alone -- would make him "more miserable."
Though it's none of my business, I truly hope he was just talking and won't actually do this. He's Turkish and has a lot of self-loathing issues where it comes to being gay anyway -- his mother, who still lives in his home country but he talks to her every week -- is still pressuring him to get married and have kids, so I think that's a HUGE part of this as well. He's supposed to go visit her next year and says he may end up marrying whatever girl she will surely have waiting for him when he gets there. But though he used to resist -- and resent -- that kind of stuff from his mother, now because he's lonely and hasn't a boyfriend in over a year, now he's saying it doesn't sound so bad to him anymore. I'm still hoping he will change his mind.
- For me, lack of eligible gay men.
- I know there are tons of gay guys where I live, but it seems like everyone is in hiding. Most people just hook up online now I guess. Im mid 20s and it's depressing, it's like it's impossible to have an organic friendship with anyone now without them seeing a pic of your dick first.
- Because gay culture sucks and is embarrassing.
- Most bisexual and gay guys do not want to identify as such publicly, so they either live lives denying their same-sex interest or seek same-sex activities on the down low so that no one will ever know. It is hard to sustain relationships in with that dynamic.
- Gay men think gay men are inferior men.
- See the personality test thread.
- where, r393?
- Adam Lambert owns this thread.
- Gay guys for the most part are feminine and gross
- Relationships are difficult to maintain anyway. Two men together makes it even more difficult. We have issues remaining faithful to the opposite sex, let alone each other.
Most men my age want younger men (48), and are willing to spend their money and dignity on them. I've got too much pride to do that. And most young men in their 20s and 30s are simply too flighty and self-absorbed to be in good solid relationships. I know, I was that age.
And at this point, I'm too set in my ways to be in a relationship. Relationships involve compromise, and I'm not willing to do that anymore.
I'm all for the right for the LGBT community to have the same right to wed as heteros, but not for me. Not anymore.
Even though I think that he's an asshole, Dan Savage did have a point when he once wrote that some of us are just going to end up alone, regardless of sexual orientation. Everyone won't, nor were they necessarily meant to be coupled up with someone.
- After awhile, many gay men just say "screw it" and withdraw from the rat race. I see many younger gay men getting hitched and doing the whole courtship thing, but for older ones who grew up without all the options, it may be too late.
- Gay men are mean
- Femininity in men is not viewed as attractive by most.
- I can speak as to exactly why I'm still single.
I'm 31, good looking, great body, big dick, etc. etc.
My problem is that I made a career switch recently and my finances are a complete mess. I don't even feel comfortable dating anyone seriously and I won't for at least another 2-2 1/2 years until I finish grad school and get my shit together.
Also, I'm a black guy in gay world, so the race thing is there right now too, at least at this age. I date white guys and black guys. White guys all seem to be holding out for their perfect white superman until they either get 35-40 or become poz ( or both) and it's unbelievable how many issues black gay men have with simply being gay.
For me personally it's all enough to chuck the whole thing and focus on myself. At this point I genuinely believe that if I become the person I want to be, it will happen.
- or you can find a good girl and marry her.
- [quote]After awhile, many gay men just say "screw it" and withdraw from the rat race. I see many younger gay men getting hitched and doing the whole courtship thing, but for older ones who grew up without all the options, it may be too late.
This. R399 nails it.
- [quote]And at this point, I'm too set in my ways to be in a relationship. Relationships involve compromise, and I'm not willing to do that anymore.
This is another great point. After being single for so long, and now pushing 50, I just can't see making the effort, investment, and taking the time to "get used to" living with someone else. To build a relationship takes YEARS and lots of flexibility and compromise. I can't imagine doing that, and more importantly, I can't imagine anyone else doing that just to be with me...
It's too late. The ship has sailed.
- r404, Im 27, Im also black and single. I'm trying to become the person I want to be, like you are...but sometimes I think Im reaching for something that doesn't really exist.
I know I have to make myself dateable, but gay men have such expectations of perfection that I kind of just end up doing me. Focusing on my own life, making sure I keep my own head above water as a minority, is enough to leave me unavailable and exhausted most of the time.
Gay dating is like selling yourself like a product, and ain't nobody got time for that. I feel like straight people don't have to deal with this bullshit to such an extreme. So why should I?
r404, I would definitely go on a with date you, even if you felt like your shit wasn't together. Sometimes I feel like people like you and myself shut ourselves off to one another because we think we won't be good enough to date as we are.
- I tend to agree that the gay men who complain about the dating scene in the gay community would probably be single in the straight world too, if they were straight. I don't care about numbers. They seem to blame and point fingers rather than taking a look at themselves, which is where the problem is.
[quote]Gay dating is like selling yourself like a product.
I'm not sure what this means, but if it's referring to gay men only dating "hot" guys, well, welcome to the human race. This is found in all sexual orientations, male and female. I am disgusting and look like a monster, so naturally, men and women are going to look past me, or ignore me, or treat me like I'm sub-human. Because people like attractive things. Studies show that attractive people get perks and treated with more kindness and respect than those ghoulish like myself, and many here who are also vile looking, but can't bring themselves to admit it. I admit it. I recognize it. I look as though I came straight from Middle Earth, and that's unfortunate, but I accept it, those are the cards I was dealt, and I move on with my life. I don't blame people for being people.
And, it's not "gay men" as a whole, that's the problem. It's the individuals who find fault in gay men for everything because they have issues with homosexuality mostly.
I, also actually only know gay men who are partnered than single. So, maybe it's just the circle you run, OP.
- Because single is the NATURAL state for gay men. Those who desire some kind of hetero-normative identity will disagree. But, it's the truth. Even those who couple or even marry end up in fully open or "we play outside the relationship but only together" types of situations after a very short time. Maybe I need to be in the "bitter" thread on this?... :)
- r410, then why do gays want marriage?
- You can't believe the number of coupled up men I can't get to play outside the relationship. And I'm hot!
- First, r411, at least half of all "gays" are women.
Second, Datalounge is not the best source for what "gays want."
- I'm actually one of the few single gay men I know. Everyone else has gotten coupled up over the years, meaning I spend more and more time on my own.
I'm pushing 50 now, and I'm pretty sure I won't ever even date again, let alone be in a relationship.
Just call me "Charlie Brown"
- I'll be fifty next year. I've totally given up on the idea of dating or anything more. I go to my grave having failed somehow.
- So many closeted dudes and guys in denial eliminate the possibility for large numbers of gay and bi men to have relationships. For most, gay relationships are unthinkable, for others undesirable because they want a mainstream identity.
- r409, are you a gay man? I dont think you sound like one. The dynamics of gay dating go beyond the visual component of being "hot". You seem to be caught up in that part. There is that huge factor of masculinity that is also involved.
And as men, we naturally are competitive towards one another. But we can also become attracted to those who are our competition. You can read any thread here on an out gay celebrity and see how we cut each other down. There are so many conflicting realms of thought in gay courtship, so it's no surprise to me that gay relationships are usually short lived.
And to say that complaining gay men would still be single if they were straight is ridiculous. We live in a world that is designed around, yes, hetero-normative relationships. Everything in society is designed to make them prosper. Very little is intended for us, so what encouragement do we have to stay faithful to one another? That's why the gay marriage thing is such a big deal.
- Another example of why so many gay men will remain single:
- Black gay guys, why are you complaining about how being black and gay hold you back? Wouldn't it be easier if you stopped chasing white and white-Hispanic men and actually started chasing men that look like you? Just sayin'...This goes for you Asian nellies as well.
- r419, I don't recall saying in my post that I was "chasing" white and white-Hispanic men!
- R419 is right.
- "So many closeted dudes and guys in denial eliminate the possibility for large numbers of gay and bi men to have relationships. "
Same with femme lesbians
- r419, stop projecting. I'm r404 and shared very common concerns about dating in the gay world as a black man. I stated specifically that I date both black men and white men. The other dude didn't mention race at all. Stop trying to turn us both into obsessed snow queens.
- R423 You are obsessed with whites. Get over it and go find your white knight and stop complaining.
- A lot of Gay/Bi guys just aren't attracted to most openly gay guys. I know it is not politically correct to say this, but if you read personals ads and profiles, you realize that the most important characteristic to m4m is that their perspective date be "masculine" or "normal." A recent study found that "masculine" was the most frequent word in male for male profiles. Unfortunately, most openly gay guys are not very masculine in appearance, demeanor, or interests as defined by mainstream judgment. For instance, a lot of openly gay dudes don't even watch ESPN or football, which most of society would not consider a masculine trait. Moreover, openly gay men tend to like girly entertainment, such as Bravo, female music, or musicals, which is likewise not considered masculine by most. Further, the language is most openly gay men is rather unmasculine, whether it is the reference to other males by female pronouns or use of words like "dear" or "girl." Whether they know it or not or even care, these are not widely considered to be attractive masculine attributes in a man.
- Isn't it interesting that there are so many self-described good looking, masculine, highly intelligent, wealthy, fit, amazingly hung guys out there who are terminally single? On message boards, it seems that they are always the single ones. They're single because everyone else is badly flawed and completely incapable of seeing the genius Adonis that they are.
- r427, you rock!!
- Watching sports isn't "masculine." Doing them is.
- Because there are so many gay men like R1 R3 R5 R8 in the thread linked below. Gay men hate other gay men in ways straights would never think of.
- r426, you can suck my fat black dick, how about that?
- r419/r426, please shut the fuck up. You are adding nothing to this conversation but your stank attitude. Bye gurl!
- The lack of masculinity of most openly gay men is perhaps the biggest factor. As stated, "masculine" is the most desired traits in dude-for-dude personals, which indicates that bi/gay men are having a tough time finding attractive masculine guys. One of the most popular phrases gay/bi men have when dating is "If I wanted a woman, I would get a woman" or "no fems." The problem is that gay culture is very non-masculine, and men who embrace that culture tend to become or already are very unmasculine. Sadly, the most masculine men tend to be closeted, bisexuals involved with women, or dudes on the down low, which is not optimum for building longterm relationships. The men most at peace with their homosexuality and actually seeking a public longterm relationship with men are often deemed unattractive because of their lack of masculinity. The closet and denial keeps masculine bisexual and gay men from entering the dating pool. It is a sad paradox that dooms the development of a masculine gay identity as well as largescale relationship opportunities.
- Yes, masculinity is desirable. Unfortunately, it can make you invisible to other gay men as a potential mate, even if you're not deep in the closet or on the down low. The same is true with lesbians and femininity.
- "The lack of masculinity of most openly gay men is perhaps the biggest factor"
Most gays don't have a problem finding someone to have sex with. It's not like gay men have fewer sexual partners than straight men or straight women. The issue is usually finding a lasting relationship. I think a lot of it boils down to the fact that all the social pressure that is on straight people to "settle down" for life and have kids isn't there for gay people (although maybe that will change when gay marriage becomes more common)
- The masculine issue is a HUGE factor. It is often not acknowledged for political reasons, but I see it all the time.
- Only old people who aren't getting laid anyway get so worked up about masculinity and use phrases like "dude-for-dude personals."
- Old people don't use phrases like "dude for dude" personals. That shit only comes out of the mouths of bros, who are all 27, and then they die.
I'm sure you'd consider me an "old person," and I don't ever say "dude" except sarcastically and with derision. And I never write it without quotation marks.
There's another forum I participate in, in which I've met a number of participants IRL. One is a gay guy who never fails to refer to himself as "masculine," "very masculine," and even "rather masculine." And then when I met him, he's this little, mousy guy. I don't dislike him at all, but "masculine" isn't the first word I'd use to describe him.
I think of him when I see all you "masculine" turds posting.
- Numerous studies have repeatedly shown that gay men who place personal advertisements tend to stress exhibiting masculine interests and behaviors, and they tend to seek masculine mates (Bailey, Kim, Hills, Linsenmeier, 1997; Laner & Kamel, 1977; Lumby, 1978; Phua, 2002; Taywaditep, 2001). For instance, in a study of 2,729 gay men’s personal advertisements, Bailey et al. (1997) found that gay men who chose to use gender specific self-descriptors were significantly biased towards stereotypically masculine traits (e.g., dominant, muscular, and athletic) and labels (e.g., “a masculine man,” “straight-acting,” and “jock”). Furthermore, most advertisers explicitly requested masculine mates and they expressed that stereotypically feminine traits were undesirable in a potential mate.
- What is masculine, though?
I gather queeny and bitchy isn't masculine. Were the leather types masculine? Were bears masculine?
After the Village people era there was the hyper masculine era, when everybody had pecs out to here, twenty gallons of gel in their hair, and no hair anywhere else.
Now it's all hipster with beards and plaids and nerd glasses.
So what is masculine? Or does it all boil down to the depth of the voice and the degree of the lisp, if any? And if it does, where the hell did all the high pitched voices with lisps go anyway?
- Are we the kind of boys/men we want?
According to a new study by John’s Hopkins University, the answer is no.
The new study, conducted as a series of interviews with 35 young/teen Black men who have sex with men ages 18-24 shows that they:
Almost exclusively prefer romantic and sexual partners they perceive to be masculine.
Reluctant to allow a man they consider to be feminine to “top” them during sex.
Allow men they perceive to be more masculine to control the terms of what kind of sex happens, including condom use.
Consider masculine men to be less likely to have HIV, and feminine men to be more at risk.
According to the CDC’s last published incidence data from 2006, “among all black MSM, there were more new HIV infections (52%) among young black MSM (aged 13–29 years) than any other racial or ethnic age group of MSM in 2006. The number of new infections among young black MSM was nearly twice that of young white MSM and more than twice that of young Hispanic/Latino MSM.”
This study, while a very small sample, is interesting for several reasons. First, this study, unfortunately, speaks to the ways in which misogyny is very present in Black gay men’s spaces. Anyone who’s ever seen Black Gay Chat or Adam4Adam or any of the other outlets where Black gay men frequent for dating or sex, these notions about masculinity are abound. People still frequently post requirements about “must be masculine” or “no fats no femmes.” I am always curious about what does masculine mean? 50 Cent?
Michelangelo Signorille wrote a book many years ago called Life Outside, which dealt with the muscle and “straight acting” obsession in white gay male culture–and the ways in which muscle culture was used to also signify healthy and not having HIV, whether that was true or not, and I would say Phillip Brian Harper’s book Are We Not Men? is one of the closest Black gay books dealing with this issue. It was a reaction to AIDS and the more femme and androgynous aesthetic of the 1980s (like Boy George and George Michael for white gays, Sylvester, Prince and Jermaine Stewart for Black gays).
For white gay men, they often use sports imagery like “athletic” or “jock” to connote the kind of hypermasculinity most desirable. For Black and Latino gay men, that same hypermasculinity is expressed in hip-hop terms– the “thug” and “downlow (not necessarily as bisexual but as able to pass as heterosexual to other black people in public).” Most other kinds of black queer male aesthetics (afro-punks–as in punk rock, afro-centric, bohememians/neo-soul, Buppies, etc) are always trumped by hip-hop notions of masculinity.
But this study also points to the ways in which womanhood, or in this case, femininity, or one’s proximity to it, marks one as the vector of disease, as promiscuous, having dangerous sexual desires, and more deceptive of their partners. It’s similar to the ways in which women are most often blamed, and sometimes killed for the spread of HIV when straight men contract the virus.
This study points to a need to go beyond individual behavior models for preventing HIV, but undoing structures that impact people’s vulnerability or the contexts under which people are making decisions. We have to really have to find ways of confronting and challenging misogyny in our society (across sexuality and gender identities) that disempower those who see themselves or are labeled as woman, femme, or feminine.
- [quote]are you a gay man?
Yes, I am.
[quote]I dont think you sound like one.
I like the fact I'm gay. Maybe that's a new thing?
[quote]The dynamics of gay dating go beyond the visual component of being "hot". You seem to be caught up in that part. There is that huge factor of masculinity that is also involved.
I'm not sure where you got that from. But, I don't care if the guy is masculine or feminine, if he's a nice guy, I like him. And, don't project what you find attractive onto me. Just because I'm gay, doesn't mean I'm like you in anyway.
[quote]And as men, we naturally are competitive towards one another. But we can also become attracted to those who are our competition. You can read any thread here on an out gay celebrity and see how we cut each other down. There are so many conflicting realms of thought in gay courtship, so it's no surprise to me that gay relationships are usually short lived.
I, personally only know gay men who have been in relationships for 20 plus years. I actually only know coupled gay men, to be honest now that I think about it.
[quote]And to say that complaining gay men would still be single if they were straight is ridiculous. We live in a world that is designed around, yes, hetero-normative relationships. Everything in society is designed to make them prosper. Very little is intended for us, so what encouragement do we have to stay faithful to one another?
Stop being a victim and again, stop projecting.
[quote]That's why the gay marriage thing is such a big deal.
Gay marriage is not a thing.
Go away you homophobic troll
- The preference for masculine mainstream partners is so strong that I have heard many guys say that they will not date a guy if he willfully listens to music by females. I know guys that have excluded goodlooking nice guys because they witnessed the guy singing a song by a female artist. At other times, I have heard dudes exclude potential dates because they learned the guy does not watch football or does not normally watch ESPN. I know a guy who does not find guys who wear briefs (underwear) because he thinks only feminine guys wear briefs. If you read personals ads, you will find that the criteria for being masculine are very narrow and rigid, and ostensibly, of supreme importance to a huge number of males for males.
- r442, thanks for posting that.
I think misogyny is the real reason for the subconscious desire of masculine guys. I know the study say we perceive masculine guys as less promiscuous, but I don't think that's true AT ALL. Masculine dudes are the biggest whores I have known. A lot of men that top are bisexual, and they get counted out of these studies. There are huge numbers of bi sexual men out there, we even have a lot of bisexuals on this site. They do not want relationships with gay men, they don't even acknowledge they are bi. They just want the sex, and feminine guys will give it to them, NSA. That is why there are so many single gay men.
- R444 Do these "masculine" braintrusts break up with sex partners immediately after a blowjob because now the sex partner has sucked a cock, which makes him FMN8?
- r445, misogyny is part of it, but I also think it is primal. Yes, women can be misogynists too, but women largely have the same preference for ultramasculine to macho dudes, as studies have confirmed. I have heard women express their attraction for some of the biggest jerks, but they love overt masculinity. Likewise, I have heard women deride and degrade men for not being masculine enough, a wimp, limp-wristed, a pansy. In fact, some of the strongest anti-feminine male language I hear is from women.
- r446, some of them prefer dudes who don't orally reciprocate (see Adam4Adam, Grindr, Jack'd, Craigslist, et al) or are "Total Tops" because such men are perceived to be totally masculine. The exception is that they are okay with dudes who engage in the active role during analingus.
- Those people are Fucked Up, R448, and probably evil. So, I shall end my participation in this thread by saying I'm glad I grew up in a different time. If any such self-hating trend existed in the '70s, at least no one talked about it.
- r449, it would be one thing if such guys were a tiny minority of gay/bi males, but all evidence indicates that they are a large percentage, perhaps the majority. Of course, the fact that they tend to be very closeted or do not identify as gay makes it very hard to measure their prevalence, but many studies have indicated it is a very large population.
- I have a friend, R450, who describes himself sexually as a "total bottom." He's sexually compulsive, but only wants to suck his partner's cock, and not get blown himself. I can't imagine it. If I can suck you, you can, and are going to, suck me. Or you're not coming over.
What has the world come to?
- r451, there are tons of guys like your friend. Total Tops are so desired because so many guys are total bottoms.
- When did "total" become part of the parlance? I never heard it pre-internet.
- I am sure there was always a term for the concept before the internet. Total tops have always existed, even in ancient societies. In fact, Greek and Roman homosexuality were based on one man always being the active partner, the other always passive. The same concept has always been dominant in Arab and Latin societies.
- Because only 5% of men are gay, that doesnt help. and straight guys stays straight despite all the advances from gays.
- R454, in olden days, I was "passive" to the extent that I preferred getting fucked to fucking someone else. In that sense, I was "always passive." But no one was getting their dick in me who hadn't first licked my body from head to toe. Nuh-uh.
I'm beginning to not like gay men as much as I used to.
- r443, you seem to have a view of gay dating that is based on your personal experience, which is fine. But dont call anyone a victim or homophobic because they don't share your opinions. It only makes you come off as more bitter and damaged than you already sound.
You seem to be suggesting that most gay men are coupled, and that all gay dating operates according your perceptions of it. You couldn't be more wrong. And incredibly wrong if we are discussing dating in the black community. The statistics are at r442, so there is no need to argue or name call. Most gay men choose partners based on masculinity. Black gay males are not using protection and at the same rate as white and hispanic gay males, because their partners are more masculine. Disease has spread because these partners are promiscuous, ie not exclusive with the men they are having sex with. Those are the facts.
- Graham Norton was quoted recenttly as saying that the criticism he receives for being camp tends to come from other camp men who don't perceive themselves to be camp, which I thought was interesting and sad.
- The studies show that masculine dudes especially view feminine males negatively. However, in my experience, feminine gay men are some of the most anti-feminine people I know, whether implicitly or explicitly. When they call gay men by female pronouns or calling their manhood into question, they are usually being snide and mean in order to get at the person. They also tend to also express a preference for masculine dating partners. I have a feminine gay friend who sizing up the masculinity of perspective dates and rejects guys who have the tiniest non-masculine attributes. Feminine guys are often very intolerant toward fem guys also.
- r457, those are NOT the facts. The HIV rates of white gays that are 40+ are high too, so don't go trying to pathologize black gay men. And it's so funny that all the studies group black/Latino men in together, but your little "facts" don't, presumably because you sleep with Latinos and not black men? Get the fuck outta here. I'm so over white queens trying to frame HIV as a problem that only exists in black men while they bareback to their hearts content and get away with not being counted in public studies because they can use private healthcare to remain anonymous. It's such a crock of shit. HIV is everybody's problem in this damn community.
- [quote]You seem to be suggesting that most gay men are coupled, and that all gay dating operates according your perceptions of it. You couldn't be more wrong.
[quote]you seem to have a view of gay dating that is based on your personal experience, which is fine.
- Gay men are fucked up. They have the same needs for a primary love relationship as non-gay people, but have been warped since childhood, and are psychologically unable to bond in a healthy way with other men.
No, outright contradiction.
- [quote]Feminine guys are often very intolerant toward fem guys also.
Some feminine gay men who have issues with their sexuality. Some.
I make Carson Kresley look like Thor and I can assure you, I am not intolerant of any kind of gay man.
- This thread is troll-bait now. Any chance to bash gay men is a good one on the Internet...or in real life.
- For all of the nonsense that many gay men here tell us about how much they know about being gay and why being single is better, they really can be a stupid bunch.
If you take a look at history, you'll find many examples of male couplings in societies which either took no notice of homosexual relationships or even encouraged them. Point being, men are human, and humans do tend to form monogamous relationships, even if those relationships aren't strictly monogamous.
- [quote] humans do tend to form monogamous relationships, even if those relationships aren't strictly monogamous.
I think you meant to write "to form couples".
- Yes, R463, you're right. I thought about that after. It's a contradiction. I can tell there is some sort of agenda with this thread.
- r461 and r463, I DID NOT say r443 was wrong for having an opinion. I just said that the particular opinions he has on this subject are unfounded because this has been studied. I really don't care if he goes around thinking that most gay men are coupled, and that we don't pick partners based on masculinity just because he doesn't. But that is not the truth.
r460, I AM Black. You, like r443, don't need to name call and curse. Im not going to argue with you about facts. A lot of gay men have unprotected sex with multiple partners because we want masculinity more than we want relationships. That is why so many gay men are single.
- [quote] I really don't care if he goes around thinking that most gay men are coupled.
I never said most gay men are coupled. I said, "personally" which means "personal experience".
[quote]don't need to name call and curse. Im not going to argue with you about facts.
I called you a "victim". Which you are. You're also great at twisting and manipulating things around to your advantage.
- The study at R442 is so utterly illogical I don't even know where to start. It has no basis in reality. In Western society femininity is in no way associated with promiscuity. In fact, the perception is that women are less promiscuous and less interested in sex than men. Men and masculinity are associated with promiscuity. Gay men prefer masculine men for the same reasons that het women prefer masculine men. To suggest that the fear of HIV or misogyny is what drives this desire is embarrassingly ridiculous. Must we desire men with double D breast and child-bearing hips in order to not be misogynist? When I realized that the sample size consisted of 35 men, I realized why the conclusion sounds so ridiculous.
- [quote] A lot of gay men have unprotected sex with multiple partners because we want masculinity
What a bizarre statement.
- [quote]I called you a "victim". Which you are. You're also great at twisting and manipulating things around to your advantage.
I'm not the victim here. I have a clear perception of reality. I don't have to twist and manipulate anything because I can see things for what they are. Many people pretend things are what they aren't. That is what I am not, a victim of those who are in denial and create fake world to live in.
- R472 - yeah, that's what I thought too.
I am a gay man.
I want masculinity.
Therefore, I have unprotected sex with multiple partners.
HUH? Bizarre is being kind.
- Very few of the gay men I know are single. They are all in long term relationships.
- One of the quack rightwing theories is that feminine men seek sex with men as a way to bolster their deficient masculinity. The theories claims effeminate men hope to attain vicarious masculinity by sexual congress with masculine men.
How do they explain blouses?
- uh, blouses?
- r472, bitch please! We might not be willing to fuck raw, you have got to be kidding yourself if you don't think there are large numbers of gay men in relationships who are actively looking for dudes who are more masculine or have bigger dicks.
Every week we have someone posting a thread about their man cheating on them. And Im talking about those who aren't in open relationships. There are people in this very thread who have said they won't date fem gays! Come on now.
- R479 must not feel he's "masculine" enough. When I was on permacruise, it was always to find a man who was better-looking than I thought I was. I guess "masculine" is what R479 and "large numbers, etc." feel is missing in them.
- [quote]When I was on permacruise, it was always to find a man who was better-looking than I thought I was.
Don't project your issues on me, hussy.
Bitch please, yourself. The statement I quoted linked bareback sex to a quest for masculinity. If that's not what the poster intended, (s)he needs to learn to write better.
- Exhibit B:
- Most men are too selfish to put in the work for a relationship. When they are with a woman it is the woman who puts in the work. Women stay together because they know how to stay together (it's easy for us).
Men can buy someone else (usually younger or from a refugee nationality).
- [quote] I think it is the fear that deep inside they feel that really connecting with another gay man is impossible. We have no real role models.
and often mock the few good role models we have.
- Time and time again, I hear bi/gay guys express that they are not attracted to most gay guys because most openly gay guys are not very masculine. Whenever a masculine or macho bi or gay guy comes on the scene, everyone is interested in him because he carries himself like a mainstream dude, a bro. They want a dude who is all-man and Alpha Male, a dude with swag. Today, guys want masculinity in a date, not tired stereotypes.
- [quote] Today, guys want masculinity in a date
Why can't you just comment on what YOU want and leave the generalisations out of it.
One thing I've noticed since doing the online dating thing is that there are people into all different kinds - they're often ridiculously specific, but nonetheless, it's significant.
- TODAY guys want to get laid. Tomorrow they want someone who can cook a great breakfast.
- Wow, I forgot about this thread. I am the OP.
I think if I had to pick one of my own poll options, it would be this one:
[quote] They want a relationship but (ageism) they are repulsed by their peers
Except it's not just ageism. It's look-ism and masculin-ism also. Guys who are 40 and ok-looking and kind of gay acting, all want a man who is 32 and "hot" and, choose your euphemism: straightacting / masculine / alpha male / not a fag / etc. Or worse, they want an even younger guy and do not get aroused sexually by men within a decade of their own age. Sad!
In other words - they reject other males whom an honest appraiser would say are "in their league" love-wise, relationship-wise. They want the much-harder-to-attain commodity that almost everyone else wants. The 32-year-old alpha stud, or the hot lithe young boy with the pretty face.
I guess I'm thankful that I fell in love with a guy my own age, early 40s, who is about as handsome as me (objectively) looks wise. And vice versa. I don't mean to be smug, I just see so much longing out there but a lot of it seems set up to fail. I see a lot of gay men who are single and wanting love, but they fixate on the unattainable. And like I said in my OP, I see potential to put some of them together, but they would recoil in mutual disgust. I understand about the rareness of chemistry but when a "6 or 7" looks-wise keeps chasing after younger and/or hotter looking and/or more masculine "9" types, the most favored and desired ones who could get a new boyfriend instantly just by existing and showing up at some random social event, I kind of stop having sympathy.
- Yep, masculinity is the most sought-after trait, and to most men seeking men, openly gay men are rarely masculine in the mainstream since of the term. I know a gay dude who says he doesn't date gay men because he is only attracted to "men who act like men," who "know nothing about Lady Gaga, calling guys girls/she, or wearing speedos," but "watch a lot of ESPN, have swagger, and say 'bro/dude' a lot."
- Most are narcissistic egomaniacs.
- Many guys are afraid of "settling" for less (roll eyes here).
- Because we have not been raised with the societal expectations to settle down and behave in unnatural (monogamous) ways.
It's more fun to be single and have casual sex.
Why be in a relationship when you can have your pick of a new boy in Hell's Kitchen every night?
- I must apologize again for all my shortcomings. Compared to yours, however, they are insignificant.
- I think the most compelling and rational proposal so far to this "question" (even though nobody has cited data supporting the premise that gay men are more likely to single than straight men) is the smaller dating pool.
It is just a lot less of a chance that a gay man is going to stumble upon Mr. Right during his day to day life in a natural, organic way. They are forced to find each other through websites, gay clubs, and occasional blind dates organized by a mutual friend.
Those just aren't very conducive scenarios for two people to really strike a chemistry. I'm not saying that it does't happen, but most relationships begin at school, work, or parties; and gay people just have a lot less potential mates in those environments than straight people.
It's purely a numbers game.
- I don't now why it's taken months to get to the masculinity issue....but that is the problem. There are not enough true/total tops.
You know the drill...two bottoms, one has to become versatile, neither gets what they want...open up the relationship...end of story..end of relationship.
The community is virtually topless...a bad hand that nature dealt.
The trend towards getting ripped, I suppose, is an attempt to look more masculine, but being a top, is more than abs.....and being a top, is more than a position.
And also, if you haven't read 283's comment, please do.
- I can agree partially with R497's comment, but I think part of the problem is this concept of "True Tops".
I am top/versatile, and in the single years before meeting my partner, I met more than a few men who had weirdly rigid notions about the whole "Top" and "Bottom" thing, as translated to "Man" and "Not Man." When they learned I was semi-versatile, they were disappointed. "Oh, I thought you were a Top." They meant, I thought you were a Man, and a Man does not get fucked, ever. You have just told me you are not a Man.
Seriously, that was the undertone. Men from certain cultures seemed to do this more than others.
Their loss. Being sometimes versatile made me 10x better in the Top role. And I'm partnered with a guy who is strong natured, Alpha/decision maker outside of bed, but loves to be dominated in bed. I think people who know us socially would be surprised to know our private sexual dynamics. You really can't tell what a person is like sexually from their behavior in general. Some people are constant in personality (sex and non-sex situations), but others use sex to tap into alter egos that don't get expressed otherwise.
- Judging from my personal gay/bi friends, associates, and observations, I agree that the quest for a totally masculine partner is the number one reason. There is a reason why studies show that "masculinity" is the number one sought trait of men seeking men, and gay/bi men are not shy about asserting that they are seeking masculine partners above all else. It's everywhere in the personals ads and conversations. The problem is that the most masculine guys as defined by the widespread societal definition are usually closeted, bisexuals who prefer relationships with women instead of men, or heterosexual men. Those "masculine men" are not good candidates for same-sex relationships. At the same time, gay male culture displays attributes that are judged to be very unmasculine, whether it's terms and language, clothing, music tastes, artistic taste, or just its proximity to transgenderism. It's as if gay culture grooms openly gay men to develop attributes that are repulsive to large numbers of bisexual and gay men, thereby undercutting the potential for more male relationships.
- I think the TOP (total TOP) versus Bottom thing is a distinct issue from the masculine versus feminine issue.
- But is being masculine a question of what you are (ESPN swaggering) or what you aren't (Chair of the Helen Lawson Fan Club.)
I don't quite know what masculine is. I look at the guys I am attracted to (as people not fuck puppets) and they're generally laid back, low key guys, but I don't call that masculine, I call it laid back and low key. I find excessive personalities exhausting, whether it's an alpha male type or a screaming queen, and I find excessive personalities embarrassing as partners. No interest in them however they manifest.
My point is there's a whole range of potentially masculine behaviours, soI am curious how other people define it and if they really know what they mean.
I still think people define masculine as not reaching for smelling salts over Judy Garland.
- You have a good point R501. Laid back and low key don't always translate to (hyper)masculinity, and yet those are the types I'm most attracted to too.
I could never date someone who is e-ffeminate though.
- Such shallowness if this is the case, this need for "masculinity" as being the number one factor for a partner.
It's going to be a long, lonely life.
- I'm embarrassed by most of the extremes in the gay community (which I don't think are the majority.) But the extreme left politicos, the body nazis, the ruthlessly stylin'... they all put me off. I think that's may be part of the emphasis on "masculine"; at my office the straight men I find attractive (just to look at, not pining for what I can't have) I also find to be pretty drama free. I wish I could meet more gay men like them... just drama free and genuine... the rest is negotiable.
- R504, I only know straight men who are filled, FILLED, with drama. And, when they don't have it, they seek it out.
- Well, we all have different experiences, R505.
Anyway, all of it still boils down to insecurity and expectations (part of the problem with anybody who struggles to find a mate, unless they're also really unattractive) and in gay men, some residual shame about being gay.
- Good point, R506. But, if you're secure and feel no shame towards yourself, then why do "extremes" within the gay community embarrass you?
- I think guys perceive that "laid back" or "chill" is masculine. After all, such terms are very popular in personals ads and are often accompanied with explicit references to masculinity. While some seek the Alpha Male type, most people think laid back guys are pretty masculine too in a more subdued way. A guy kicking back and drinking a beer while listening to modern rock or shooting hoops with some buds is not necessarily Alpha Male, but it is quite masculine.
- Also, people tend to equate "drama free" or laid back with being masculine because there is this perception that attractive males are not very dramatic, emotionally expressive, or high maintenance. In contrast, people think feminine guys tend to be bitchy, talkative, and high maintenance, which we know is not always the case. There are sweet and quiet feminine dudes out there who are laid back. So, I definitely think "laid back" and "chill" are consistent with the male gender stereotype of masculinity.
- So, gay men want this?
- [quote] A guy kicking back and drinking a beer while listening to modern rock
This made me laugh. I hate those ka-weens who are always blasting Chuck Berry.
- I want a guy that's laid back. I don't want a guy that's intelligent, or has opinions, or, has taste - in anything, not music, movies, sports...I want a guy who sits on the couch picking lint out of his hairy belly button. Hasn't showered for days because he's so laid back, he's cemented to the couch. Laid back guys are the closest thing to straight, and real straight men are essentially Jim Belushi. That's the epitome of masculine. That's what I want.
- R507, I don't mean extreme type people embarrass me in general, I meant they would embarrass me as a partner because I just don't dig people who need to be the star of the floorshow.
I think people often confuse being themselves with some sort of guarantee that everybody else has to find it agreeable. People should be who they are to make themselves happy, of course, but that's where it ends. Personally I prefer moderation in all things. As I say, just by nature.
Laidback guys prefer simple names. I'll call you Bob.
- I guess, R513. Different life experiences I suppose. But, there is nothing about a gay person that embarrasses me - outrageous or not.
R513, are you openly gay in every facet of your life? At work, to all friends, to family, in public?
- who is Chuck Berry?
- R515, out everywhere on earth since I was twenty year old, so you can stop your closet case fishing games.
People actually can just have different perspectives on things without some epic reason, dear.
- Single, R517?
- I just recently celebrated my 50th birthday by going out and bar hopping,something I hadnt done in 3 years.The last time I went out I had a crewcut and goatee,wore jeans and a plain shirt,and although I acted the exact same way I always have(slightly queeny),I was hit on quite a few times.On my birthday I wore a screaming red shirt with a huge rhinestone brooch( I was channeling the 80s!),silk pants and I had lost the facial hair and grown my hair back out,and needless to say,though I had lots of fun and conversations,not one person hit on me.Again,I acted the same way I always have,so what was the difference?Could it have been something as superficial as my clothes? Theres always been "theme queens" in the gay world,thats nothing new,but in my opinion the labeling is dramatically more noticeable that in the past.Everyone assumes because Im 6 ft and wide shouldered,I MUST be a top or a "bear".Labeling in the gay world is far more prevelant than straights labeling me.Seems like the more acceptance we gain from the straight world, the more we lose amongst ourselves.
We didnt need words,we had FACES.
- Partnered happily for 15 years, married for two, our income, dick sizes and favorite recipes are none of your business.
Anything else before the checklist is completed?
One night isn't enough to tell if the clothes were the issue. Do several more nights out in different venues.
- Is he a laid back bro?
- R520, if you're already married, why do you care about meeting other men? Why do you even notice other men at the office to even comment? Is it an open relationship? Are you bullshitting?
Pencil in hand, ready for checklist
- Yeah, we all totally stop noticing other men when we partner up.
Do you breathe unassisted?
- Lies...all lies.
- I think the internet and apps have made people pickier in dating. For instance, so many ads spend more time explicitly stating what type of person they are NOT seeking than the type they seek. I see some profiles with literally lists of things they people find unattractive, and the lists are very specific, tedious. If someone is asserting they are only attracted to muscular bisexual Black football players who are vegan, they are going to exclude the vast majority of bisexual/gay men from consideration. To say nothing, of the huge number of guys seeing "straight dudes only, no gays."
- The person saying there aren't enough total tops out there was really onto something.
- R526, yes, that's - in a nutshell - why I don't bother with Grindr or Skruff or any of those apps at all, period.
There is NO spontaneity with the queens who troll those apps. None. They want a fantasy. And even if you are their fantasy, they will trick with you once, and then it's on to the next hook-up.
Is there a point, thus, to this list of demands? Boring.
- Because they refuse to grow up. So many gays have a Peter Pan Complex, but not in the attractive way.
I've pretty much given up on guys around my age, because so many of them fit into this. I'm now looking for someone in their early 40s who I'm physically attracted to, can make me laugh, has something to say for themselves, is average build but won't let themselves get fat, has a hedonistic streak but also some cultural interests, can dress well or at least not freak when I do that for them, can cuddle and knows how to kiss well and make love.
I know it sounds like a lot that I want in a man but how many of you fuckers would fit that mould? Quite a lot I'd imagine. Men like that are massively common in the gay scene. But so many of that type want to fuck a different twink every night (or enter into a ridiculous dad/son 'relationship'), and so I remain single.
- To paraphrase Jesus, "It's not for everybody!"
- Marriage isn't available in all states, so naturally many gay men appear to be single.
- The 7 big problems gay men have with gay men
In new film 20MALEGAYNYC, gay New Yorkers explain why they don’t identify with other gay men – here the director examines the top seven reasons
‘If you were to just say gay guys, an image pops into my head that I’m not so fond of.’
When we talk about ‘annoying gay men’ or hating a stereotype, we’re really talking about the way a gay man is expressing his gender, not his sexuality.
Most homophobes, gay or not, don’t care as much about a man having sex with another man as the typically feminine characteristics he displays.
Yes, there are obviously still too many people who take issue with homosexuality at its core, but the more pervasive homophobia (which has seeped into the gay community) is one associated with a man acting in any way that is traditionally/ stereotypically not masculine. Which brings us to:
‘Masculine men tend to be attracted to masculine men, and feminine men seem to be attracted to masculine men as well.’
Gay men (and women across the spectrum) typically have a healthier balance of masculine and feminine traits than many heterosexual men.
Why don’t we celebrate this? Because a lot of people are put off by a man walking or talking like a woman. Why? Because many men have been taught to internalize a discomfort with feminine behavior.
Being feminine means being weak. Acting like a ‘pussy’ is treated like an inherently negative thing (so is acting like a ‘dick,’ but in a different way). So many of us openly prefer and seek out more ‘masculine’ guys.
Sexual attraction cannot be totally controlled, but this belittling of femininity needs to go.
‘Then you move to New York and you go to the Boiler Room and everyone’s getting that attention.’
Gay men in big cities have it easy in a lot of ways that we take for granted, but it can often be overwhelming to feel like such a small rainbow fish in a big queer pond.
We want to feel different in some way, so we take these ideas of a stereotypical gay man that have been imposed on us by straight culture and try to distance ourselves from said stereotypes by putting others down.
It can often feel like there’s no community at all – just the same strange, photogenic faces at the same clubs every weekend. That is a community, though, and we should embrace it.
‘I just thought I hated gay people, but I think that I really just don’t like people in general.’
The gay man’s equivalent of a post-breakup ‘I hate men’ is often ‘I hate gay guys’.
I’ve said it, my friends have said it, most of us have thought it. We blame relationship troubles on the fact that ALL GAY MEN ARE SLUTS AND NO ONE WANTS TO BE IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH ME.
Is this really true, though? Probably not. It’s simpler to take out one’s frustrations on everyone else than to accept that maybe the right guy just hasn’t come along yet.
Not all gay men only want to sleep around (and those who do are certainly allowed/ encouraged to). Not all gay men are scared of long term commitment. And not all gay man are like your – or my – ex boyfriends/ hookups/ sort-of-boyfriends/ never-called-it-anything-which-is-why-it-fizzled-outs.
‘It means more than just your sexuality.’
We still let decades-old stereotypes define our culture and sense of selves. When so many men in the gay community still assume that a well-dressed man with an interest in musical theater must be gay, we’re holding ourselves back.
It’s hard enough so much of the world still perpetuates stereotypes that kept so many of us in the closet for so long; we as gay men don’t need to perpetuate them ourselves.
‘It’s a way of seeming more masculine, of like, “Oh I don’t identify with those boa wearing gay guys.”’
We all know bullies are just insecure and put others down for displaying qualities the bullies fear in themselves, so why is bullying a problem within the gay community?
Because gay men, like all people, will always be insecure.
Because some of us want to be the cool gay guy who can hang out with his straight bros and laugh at the flamboyant ninety-pound boy in a tank top and heels. Because w
- watch this
- Masc for masc
- I don't think you can separate the homophobe's problem with men taking it up the ass from disdain for non-traditionally masculine gender display. They both boil down to the ideology that women are lesser than men and that to "voluntarily" give up one's "masculinity" is abhorrent.
- My friend does not hesitate to say he's looking for someone perfect: perfect body, perfect abs, tall, must be not just masculine but UBER-masculine, and a complete and total top. He will settle for nothing less.
As for himself, he's cute but has a little bit of a pouch in front and he's balding on top. He's also extremely critical of other men and has rejected many potential suitors for virtually no reason whatsoever.
He's 42 years old.
Is he really looking, though, or does he just trout out that credo when questioned on his love life?
- Yes, R538, he's really looking. He mostly dates guys who identify as bisexual because he does not view gay guys as being masculine (for all the reasons previously outlined in this thread). He hasn't dated anyone seriously in about two years and has grown increasingly cynical, lately even talking about "going straight" and marrying a female because he said he does not believe gay men are capable of real relationships (and that a woman, unlike a man, will take care of him when he gets older).
None of this is meant to paint him in a bad light -- quite the contrary. Yes, he's completely self-absorbed, but he also will take an old coat out of his closet and give it to a homeless guy he constantly passes on the street on his way home from work (as he did a couple of weeks ago). He's just insanely picky where it comes to dating, but truthfully, aren't we all in a way?
- Not like that, R540. There's something going on there, don't know what.
- Flesh changes! Go a LITTLE deeper!
- Its going to be sad when all these guys who are extremely picky and akin to girls in their teens with a princess fantasy looking for their "Prince Charming" end up an old hag themselves.
I learned from my girl straight friends I went to college with. Develop your own career so you can be independent and start dating around. Once you find a nice, stable guy with a good head on his shoulders whom you're attracted to, nab 'em before its too late.
The ones that were super pretty sorostitutes who had their pick of guys when they were in college that are still single are losing their looks and now wondering why they're single in their mid 30's.
The 'clock' doesn't tick for us gay guys... but I see my older gay friends who I could tell that they were the hot guy back then are suddenly running out of options, trying extremely hard to stay young and wonder what happened when the "oneS that got away" they themselves happy.
- Jesus, it's not like pairing off is a guarantee of happiness and security in old age.
- [534} That video embarrassed me. That ACCENT is obnoxious. All of these gay young men have that affected, self absorbed, grating accent: "Whut-eh-vuuuuuuh!" That is so off-putting. There is no maturity, masculinity or dignity in it. That accent needs to fade out of the gay community faster than cowboy hats.
- indeed r545
- True R545. It's bizarre how so many young gay guys are sexually turned off by the "like TOTally vapid fagboi, whatEVVuh!" accent and persona - but they adopt it for themselves anyway.
- Reading some of these threads, like the guy who thinks he deserves $50,000 to break up with his boyfriend of 6 years, from said BF, etc., makes me more confident of my decision to be single.
My cousin just divorced her hubby at age 70. I think of her when people talk about wanting someone's company when they're old. Nit so nice if you hate the person.
- I cannot make any sense of what any of them are trying say. It's a bunch of opinions, although there seemed to be a lot of unanimity.
Whatever their voices, they sounded nervous and a bit defensive. I have no idea why. Being on camera is hard for most mortals. Voices tend to sound higher and more tentative, plaintive when you're nervous. I don't know, don't think that video really tells anybody anything except what those guys said in the moment. A collection of opinions isn't a documentary. Usually there's some expert opinion or analysis to try to put it in some kind of context.
Badly made film.
- I have noticed that a lot of feminine guys tend to be the most negative toward other feminine guys. I hear so many fem guys saying they don't want to be with a "fag" or a "queen." They are the ones often saying effemophobic stuff about other males.
- "Ewwww, sex with one of my Siss-Terzz?! Puh-LEAZE."
- I only know partnered gay men. Huh.
- They can't stop being whores. End of Discussion
- The widespread and strong preference for very masculine guys is indeed the top reason. Gay culture effeminizes gay men, at least those who choose to live in that culture. The most masculine gay and bisexual men tend not to be very good marriage material because they are closeted or in deep denial. Feminine openly gay guys dislike feminine men more than anyone, and are looking for that big strong Alpha Male jock to sweep them off their feet. It is a cruel paradox.
Have you tried butching it up?
- I'm not single. My husband just hasn't acknowledged our marriage yet.
- The most desired trait of men seeking men is "Masculinity." It's overtly required in most personals ads and conversations I have with gay and bi guys. I hear gay and bi guys express a desire for a masculine guy who is stereotypically manly in his athleticism, interest in football, music tastes, hobbies, and manner of speech, dress, and walk. I hear guys say they are not attracted to stereotypical gays who have "gay accents," listen to female music, don't watch football, are into fashion, call males by female pronouns, or are catty. Some of their requirements are reasonable and just part of subjective tastes, but for some, there is a certain amount of intolerance toward any guy who is not strictly mainstream in his masculinity. For instance, a guy who doesn't watch ESPN everyday might be eliminated from consideration from some guys because it might be viewed as a sign that a dude is femmy. I sense that a lot of bi/gay dudes want the fantasy football player, fireman, bicurious straight bro, or bisexual Marine to the point of waiting alone for a long time for it to be reality.
- R557, they don't just wait along for a long time - they wait forever and die alone. That's where the self-hatred comes in.
They hate the gender unconformist within themselves, and so they hate it in others, or where they peceive it - because it reminds them of themselves, or because they just hate everything and anything nonconformist.
Really, these personal ads and hook-up apps are a complete waste of time for those who are looking to meet someone dateable. Someone fuckable, yes, if those avenues work for you. But someone dateable? Sure, if what you are dying for is a bunch of aging gay men who have been alone for 20 years who possess an unnegotiable list of requirements as long as your arm.
- There goes the erroneous application of the term self-loathing again.
- Read through the threads on DL and ask yourself that question again. If you do not know the answer, please find the nearest mental institution, you aren't fit to live on your own.
- The longer you are single, the more self absorbed and selfish you become. Compromising, accommodating, and just being kind and respectful of another persons needs on a daily basis becomes harder. I see a lot of men who say they want to be with someone but are not willing to alter ANYTHING in their lives-right down to small household details.
- I remember being 18 and telling a friend that if I was still single at 30 I would probably commit suicide. I'll be 50 in a few months and now my preference is to be alone. Over the years I have had it both ways. I have been alone and wished I could be with someone and I have been with someone and wished I could be alone. The former is much easier to handle.
- Finally, a thread wherein people are bring honest and open and not caring about what is politically correct. From my observation and experience, most bisexual and gay men are not in relationships with men because they are only attracted to very masculine males. There are some very masculine bisexual and gay men out there, but most of them are closeted, on the DL, or just plain not seeking relationships with men. I hear so many bi/gay men express frustration at an inability to find truly masculine men who date men. They want guys who act like mainstream dudes, love/play sports, fit in with their bros, and have no hint of femininity. Gay culture doesnt help with it ls portrayals of gay men who are anti-sports, and into cattiness, Bravo tv, divas, drag, speedos, and incorrect gender pronouns. A lot of them give up the search and Marry women.
- Can't speak for anyone else, but I just kept running into loser after loser after loser until I decided to give up and focus on myself. Clearly, there was a pattern there and I had to find my role in it. In the meantime, I'm giving men a wide berth. Learning to live with myself first.
- Because being in a relationship is really fucking difficult, and a lot of straight couples are only still together because of the societal/social pressure to be. Two men don't have that force pushing their relationship.
- It's my opinion that all the recent gay marriage rulings across the country adds another societal pressure for some of us to start getting hitched.
Yes, I understand that as gays, we don't have to 'conform' to hetero-normative definitions. Gay men are still free to find whatever relationships suit them - whether it be casual flings, sexfriends, your 1-3 month date & go, long term relationships or marriage but with the opportunity for us to tie the knot... well - our straight friends will start pushing for us to join them in their happiness or misery too.
- Unrealistic expectations and fear of intimacyMany gay men want the perfect man and generally will not settle for less. It's not so much they want a relationship as they really want an excuse (subconsciously) or justification to be single. Potential suitors are not handsome, don't have a great body, are too old (though never too young), don't make enough money, don't have a beautiful place, etc. They don't examine themselves. Even many of those will end a relationship over the dumbest issues or they are so unforgiving of mistakes. They LOOK for excuses to end the relationship in their quest for someone better. Then then bemoan they are all alone and have no one. They whine they can't find anyone. The years march on and the opportunities are much fewer. They are age 50 and single, but want a 25 year old man like many men around their age range, who too bemoan being single and alone. When the opportunity comes, likely by a man within their age range, they do everything they can to sabotage it. They are willing to suffer anything to obtain a youthful golden boy, unto financial exploitation and humiliation. Then they turn around and bitch that they've been exploited. They are so deluded and it's tragic. They need to face life as it is and only then will they begin to find contentment.
Please learn to divide your comments into paragraphs.
- Someone make a sequel thread
- The effimancy of so many gay men is repugnant
- Thank you [R-569], I will do so. I appreciate your pointing this out to me.
- I am bisexual, so I have options. I was open to the idea of dating a dude, but I never found any dudes that I was attracted to who wanted a real longterm monogamous relationship. When it comes to dudes, I am only attraced to
Masculine athletic types. I just don't find a guy who is into Lady Gaga, musicals, calling guys dudes "girl" to be attractive. I married a woman.
- [quote]When it comes to dudes, I am only attraced to Masculine athletic types. I just don't find a guy who is into Lady Gaga, musicals, calling guys dudes "girl" to be attractive.
Maybe these types of gay men weren't attracted to your self-loathing ass. Dude.
- Bisexual men are the worst.
- What is so self loathing about what he said.? He likes MEN not some chick with a dick!
- I do find it interesting that he's attracted to women as well but doesn't like femmy qualities in men.
I know a male couple - one gay, one bi, and the gay one is flamboyant (he even has a lisp). That makes more sense to me than the bi guy being into butch guys and femme women, but I suppose sense needn't have anything to do with it.
- The asshole is self-loathing is because he thinks all gay men are 'chicks with dicks'. If he couldn't date a masculine gay 'dude', then obviously there aren't any out there. Fucking idiots.
- R577, you make no sense!
- R578, is a nelly boy
Perhaps you're joking but people often have types. I assumed bi guys would have similar things they find attractive in men and women.
- where are the truly masculine dudes?
- If a dude is not masculine and normal, why even bother. Just date chicks.
- Or trolls like r583
- R583, exactly!
- As a gay man in NYC, I find relationship building a total waste of time. I embrace being single.
- Yeah R581, unicorns too.
- That is some really striking anecdotal evidence, R561. You're a real Margaret Mead!
- ^^I meant R563.
- Assuming most of the posters are American, all this desire for "masculine" men and to be thought of as such is really a product of cultural homophobia. It's the same desire of black people of a certain era wanting to change the colour of their skin.
Not that gay men are innately effeminate or incapable of exhibiting traits that are widely accepted as masculine but they've gotten to you, the homophobes, they've gotten under your skin, set your own agenda for you, turned you against each other, and have made you feel inferior. You're now doing their work for them.
What you're failing to recognise is that ALL men, gay or straight, struggle with the narrowly defined notions of masculinity. Far better to be a well-rounded human capable of empathy and a rich, emotional life capable of reasoned thinking and putting your attention and concern on others. The most important trait associated with masculinity is confidence and the ability to define things for yourself.
Be yourself. Do what you want to do. Be passionate about the choices you make in life, commit to them and be loyal to others. Who cares about football and board shorts? Those people are struggling inside as well. Recognise ther humanity, have compassion for others and you'll be fine.
Whether you grow old with somebody or embrace the love that is around you as you age is no matter - nobody knows the future. For myself, I invest my time and energy in my 11 nieces and nephews (incl. 3 great nieces and nephews). I look to have a meaningful impact on their lives. If a compatible partner comes along, great, but after 17 years with my previous partner I have no interest in settling with just anybody. Mostly I think aid want to be with someone I can totally enjoy music with. :)
- R590 I want to date you. We're probably on different sides of the globe, which makes that difficult, but the thought is there.
- Maybe it's because gay men are more pervert.
- Well thanks R591, I'm in London. Where are you?
- OK, time to get in one last comment before this thread maxes out. I'm the OP and it's been interesting to read the responses. The poll also, results are fairly evenly spread. Thanks everyone.
You are great. That is good advice for gay as well as straight men and women.
- It is great to see people drop the pretext of political correctness and honestly identify the biggest obstacle to male same-sex relationships: the lack of attractive masculine partners. The overwhelming majority of people that are attracted to males, are attracted to conventionally masculine men. Masculinity is the factor in why people who find males attractive find them so. Even attractive physical attributes are correlated with perceived masculinity, whether it is square jaws or buff muscles. The problem for bi/gay men is that gay culture emasculates Same-sex males, tries to get them to embrace things that most find unmasculine, whether it is music taste, movie taste, or an aversion to male team sports. That unfortunately, makes most openly gay men to be rather unmasculine in their public presentation. This also makes them less attractive to other same-sex oriented males. Masculinity is the key factor.
- Make new thread
- I'm from the UK and myself a gay man. To point out the true some men are afraid of long term relationship some just want to have fun (sex). But there are a few of us that actually want a relationship but seem to never got the chance or to afraid to ever go to clubs online dating because we have a self confident problem. Through out my life I feel I was an ugly person but I did give clubs and bars a go I found I would be standing there all by myself feeling scared and I do try to make contact but no one ever took notice or even look at me. My confident lower and same with online dating my profile would be there for years and no one will make the first move. So I decided to make the first move and chat but no answer back. Soooooo I gave up on relationship and see no point in trying anymore. In a way the Gay coummunity can be cruel. So I just work and never thought of relationship again and at my age right now I know it not going to happen. So maybe this explain some of your question. :)
- Said many times already but it's hard for gay men to be in a relationship because it is hard to be gay. Gay men who came of age in the 70s and 80s are still wrestling with internalized homophobia and the feelings of being "abnormal." Gay is shameful and should only be acted on in meaningless, fleeting covert sexual interactions. A gay relationship brings it into the light and brands us with a scarlet "G." Psychologically, it's easier to be untethered... but more lonely.