What the fuck? Do gay men read this crap? Gay for pay has nothing on this fucked up shit. Read the synopsis for this book. Bitch needs therapy, big time.
King's Conquest (Mending the Rift)
"In a world where two kingdoms are constantly at war, Prince Rinin, heir to the throne of Kari Kingdom, has been demanded as a war conquest by King Merinej of Jede. The choice is simple: the prince will travel to his enemy's kingdom and share the king's bed, or else the war continues. But Rin will not lower himself to be a whore, so he demands a contract requiring the king to be faithful. In return, the prince will risk his life by giving the king a child.
Where Rin expected nothing more than a business arrangement, he receives affection. The more surprising realization is the willingness of his own heart to return the same. But even his king cannot save Rin from those who wish him harm, and their joining might be over before it can fully bloom."
I've been into slash fiction for years... The writers and readers are about 90% female from what I gather.
Any other questions?
Yeah. Why do you get off on stories about men getting pregnant?
[quote}Any other questions?
Not OP, but yes. Why? What's the appeal for them?
I had no idea this genre was so plentiful. The "customers who bought this book also bought...." section suggests that one could have an entire floor-to-ceiling bookcase full of this stuff.
I would be fine with this genre but the writers have no idea of what physically goes on between two guys in the sex department. And one guy has to be femme and the other manly. Especially if there is to be mpreg. I want two guys who are studs, who can fight together and fuck together and still be male. Even if they are going to have a baby together. Do you think guys could write slash this way or not?
R2, I don't. Mpreg (as it's called) isn't even that common a thing but it is a thing. I'm not sure why some people like it.
R3, It varies from person to person. Sometimes it is as simple as 1 hot guy + 1 hot guy = 2 hot guys. Personally, I got into it mostly through fanfiction, there is a lot of slash in fanfiction, I had never really been into romance novels and still am not but will read the occasional slash fic. I've heard some women say they hate the gender role dynamics in most het so instead of digging for good het they read slash.
R5, there is slash written that way. I'm told pretty much all yaoi (like the Japanese version of slash) is as you described, they call it seme/uke. I find with slash people just tend to pair up any two guys and there is a fair bit of variety.
Odd, I could swear there was over a decade ago a novel with a similar plot where the prince searched for a way to become a princess in order to save his realm through marriage.
WTF kind of shit is this?! Heard about this slash stuff for years and years. It's been around forever, but was never interested in it because I figured it was all amateur crap. And I was right!
"I would be fine with this genre but the writers have no idea of what physically goes on between two guys in the sex department. "
Or psychologically, or socially. Some of the slash fiction out there is so feminized that it basically puts male characters into lesbian relationships.
Lol at R2. I spat my drink.
R10, that makes sense - the authors are females who obviously fascinated by the idea of a male-male relationship but they only have their own femaleness to go on.
I guess this is the flip side of straight guys who make lesbian porn for straight guys, and have no interest in attempting to convey what real lesbians are like.
Oh, those damn straight fraus are also very common in the femmeslash department. And on lesbian sites.
No matter how "open minded" they are, they don't really understand female-female relationship and sexuality. It's either two femmes making love with soft touches or a butch/femme couple where of course the butch one is the man and the femme one the female in the relationship. Says a lot about straight women and their fucked up understanding of relationships.
I wish straight people would leave us alone in "our spaces".
What does fraus mean ?
But what's the impetus for lesbian slash (femmeslash, I guess?) R12's explanation worked for the men, but I don't get why they'd write about lesbians. This is perplexing.
Mercedes Lackey has a lot of gay fantasy novels. I don't know if they are correctly called slash, but they are crappy writing about flowery, overblown gay relationships, nothing like what real gay men are like. Though she's very popular, shitty as her writing is.
I can't for the life of me understand why "straight women" would be interested in lesbian romance.
Gay men, yes, though. I think it is strangely endearing that they'd be interested in reenacting gay male romance. It is certainly less harmful than homophobes "ewwwwing" at two men kissing, no matter how unrealistic or misguided it may be.
Also, a fair amount of gay male slash seems to be written by lesbians.
Women confuse me . . .
I've been reading quite a bit of it lately. You know how some feminists like to say that drag queens are an offensive caricature of women and a projection of gay men's contempt for females? I don't think that's true, but if it were, slash fiction would be the flip side of that coin. It's incomprehensible to me that someone could put so much effort into writing a love story between two guys and have it come out so epically homophobic.
As R10 says, the authors often shoehorn their male protagonists into female roles. Dislike of oral sex and/or being too tired for sex after a hard day have almost ended some slash relationships. Also one of the guys taking care of everyone around them at the expense of their own well being until they end up hospitalized, and then everyone else is sorry for how selfish they've been and they'll help with the housecleaning from now on.
And good lord, the sex. I appreciate the girls who cut away with billowing curtains, or maybe gloss over it with some vague thrusting. But the ones who try to write hardcore porn with no grasp of the mechanics are pretty comical.
It's the endearingly sweet stories that keep me coming back, though. I'm currently obsessed with a granny who's now well over 300,000 words into her epic. She wrote a cute little tale of our TV protagonists getting gay married, and just continued from there detailing their everyday life using the new show episodes as a guide. So after the events on TV, they go to Wal-Mart and clean the house and bake cookies for school functions. The highlight of their lives are periodic visits from "Mom," wherein they pamper her and plead with her to teach them all of her recipes, unlike her daughters who can't be bothered and their fat husbands who disappear whenever a dish needs washing. It fills me with a joy that I just can't explain.
I draw the line at mpreg, though. And I'd never even heard of "blood play" until slash. No, thanks.
The human psyche is an enduring mystery.
I agree, r20. And sexual psychology appears to be especially mysterious, and surprisingly divergent between men and women.
I am a woman, and I cannot for the life of me understand why a straight woman would want to read or write obsessively about a sexual relationship between two men (or two women, for that matter). I can understand why a literary writer might seek to explore a type of relationship foreign to him or her as an artistic endeavor, but that's not what this slash/ MM romance genre is. Rather, it's just straightforward genre writing, and obviously both the writers and the readers are deriving emotional satisfaction from it. And that's what I don't get at all.
They're apparently also deriving income from it, R21. That Amazon book OP linked only costs $3.49 a kindle pop, but with a dedicated readership I bet they move volume. Maybe it's too bad we missed the calling--I suspect genre writing is hard to fake minus the emotional investment.
R19, you get my vote for Post Of The Day.
Honourable mention goes to R13.
I hadn't a clue that this universe existed and your explanations of its perverse workings was intriguing.
The world needs more people who love M/M love/sex/romance; not less.
The warring kingdoms/royal hostage/sex-slave prince is so common in slash as to be a trope. WTF?! I'm convinced the key to understanding straight female sexuality lies in slash somewhere.
There are some gay men who write slash and yaoi. I'm currently enjoying Artifice by Alex Woolfson, an out gay man. I HIGHLY recommend it.
Link below is to the title page. Scroll down for the navigation buttons.
[quote]Why do you get off on stories about men getting pregnant?
Because fag hags don't think of you as men. To them, you are women who happen to a penis. That's why they always want to shop with you, watch SATC and talk about boys.
R27 = jealous lesbian
I prefer thebondage stuff with movie stars but it's hard to find.
[quote]But what's the impetus for lesbian slash (femmeslash, I guess?) [R12]'s explanation worked for the men, but I don't get why they'd write about lesbians. This is perplexing.
I don't really get it either, but for example wherever there's a lesbian couple on TV or in movies there are 'straight' women getting into it. Latest example are the two girls from Glee. There are lots of 'straight' women shipping them.
Don't know if they are repressed bisexuals or lesbians or if they (like a lot of gay and straight males) don't really count two women together as real but more like an intense friendship.
The draw for women (bi, gay and straight) writing femmeslash and slash is that the power dynamics between two different genders are eliminated. The characters are more or less physically equal. Some women find this cathartic to explore; some find it erotic (one hot guy = hot; two hot guys = exponentially better); others just find it easier.
Also, fan fiction carries the heavy stigma of "Mary Sue" characters - self-inserts where the author is writing herself into the story, in prettier/ more beloved form. Writing two men removes the author from the characters somewhat, so that it's easier to be objective.
Google "Why do women write slash" and prepare to be amazed. College courses have sprung up around this question.
Most of it is so horribly written, why would anyone want to read it? Just awful stuff.
And then Skyler caressed Ethan and said "I feel so close to you." And then Ethan hugged Skyler back and said "I feel so close to you too."
r33 just lolz :)
You made me L-O-L, R33. Not easy on a Monday morning.
apparently there is a lot of fan fiction around twilight goy's too ...
I've read tons of slash online for free, years ago when I was abroad a lot for work and didn't have much else to do with my downtime. Wish I had time to theorize about it but like r35 said, Monday morning and all...
There are a lot of lonely, crazy people in the world.
All of human sexuality is an endless mystery. I can't imagine why a gay dude would be attracted to straightness in guys. To me a guy hungering for cock is hot as hell, a guy wanting pussy is gross. And the idea of literally breeding a guy is hot too - "mpreg"?!
Takes all kinds.
Just because you posted a crappy slash story with a pregnancy angle doesn't mean it's all like that.
There is some really good slash out there with "manly" sex for lack of a better word. Maybe this would be a more interesting and honest discussion if you'd posted a more typical story.
There are some women who can write male/male stories quite well. There are many who cannot.
As someone else in this thread said the more stories there are involving queer characters the better. I won't hate on women for exploring that.
How can you hate on women for liking gay men. Seems to me the more women who are accepting the more likely you'll see places like Hollywood change when it comes to out gay actors and seeing their relationships in the tabloids just like the straight ones.
One of my first internet experiences around 1999 was reading slash fic about the British coming out movie 'Get Real'. But since then I have moved on and no longer indulge in that sort of literature. Though I wonder if there's some type of 'Oprah Book Club' site or blog that recommends the best of the best Gay Slash Fiction? Because the amount of bad slash fic is overwhelmingly bad and not worth to go through all of it in order to find the few good ones.
I've read some slash, and, although there is a lot of dreadfully written sex, there's also alot of realistically written sex out there in fic. And most slash writers don't seem to write one guy as stereotypically male and one as steretypically female, that's more a yaoi thing (unlike slash, I find yaoi to be really weird, from the little I've seen/heard of it).
But still, the emotional dynamics are often off, more often than the sex. IMO. As someone said, there's a tendency for those dynamics to feel more like it's a lesbian relationship.
As for the "why". I think women write/read that stuff for 2 reasons.
One is enjoying it as written porn. Readers often leave comments below explicit slash fic saying how much it turned them on and often hint at masturbation.
And the other is to "awww" over the romance. It seems most women enjoy romance, in any type of relationship (straight, gay male, lesbian) - unless, of course, they're homophobes. That explains the straight women writing about lesbians and the lesbians writing about gay men.
I find slash fandoms to not be nearly as dominate by straight women as one might expect. You get a notable amount of lesbians, as well as there being quite a few straight women into femslash. and there seem to be a lot of bi women into slash. That could contribute to the lesbian relationship dynamics that a few people commented on.
There are rec lists but finding good slash is really difficult, most of it is very bad, it is amateur writing written as a hobby.
"The draw for women (bi, gay and straight) writing femmeslash and slash is that the power dynamics between two different genders are eliminated. The characters are more or less physically equal. "
Sometimes, and sometimes bad writers feminize male characters to the point of sexual passivity, housewiffery, or pregnancy. The bad writers can't stretch their imaginations to the point of equality between lovers, which makes me incredibly sad for them.
Anyway, I wanted to agree with everyone who said that this may end up changing the world for gay people. You men have NO idea how common this is - every little girl who dips a toe into an on line fandom is exposed to this stuff... even the conservative Christians. Some of them are going to unlearn the hate because of this.
I love slash fanfiction and wish I could write it. I've sure read plenty of it. There's some great stuff out there, but also, yes, a lot of pure crap. When I stumble on a good writer, I tend to follow them around to different fandoms because their writing is so exquisite, not because I love (or even know) the characters. There are lots of reasons women love slash fiction.
1. It's the last frontier in "forbidden" romance. Good romance ALWAYS has conflict that has to be resolved. There is always something or someone keeping the lovers apart. Slash has plenty of opportunities for angst ie. disapproving families, closeted characters, and even legal ramifications (in historical fiction).
2. When done well it's incredibly hot/erotic. Like someone up thread already said, if one guy is hot, two is way hotter. We don't need or want a woman in the relationship. I guess the experience is a little more voyeuristic and detached that way.
3. There is usually one character who has to be won over, seduced, and, yeah, if its a straight guy, "turned." That dynamic is very hot to a lot women. It's a prevalent theme in straight romance as well.
4. We suspend disbief. We know the author doesn't know shit about the mechanics of gay sex or what it feels like, but we don't care. It's still hot if written well. Plus, I assume the authors have done their "research" and at least spend some time reading and viewing gay porn. That's gotta give them something to work with--even if it isn't perfect.
[quote]. I've heard some women say they hate the gender role dynamics in most het so instead of digging for good het they read slash.
For some, maybe, but for most, I think that's a cop out answer. There are plenty of strong women in literature, but if all you read are trashy romances, then yes, those power dynamics are the bread and butter of that genre.
I like some fanfiction. Not a big fan of slash, however, because I feel like it is an appropriation of another's culture for the benefit of titillation without any real understanding.
In reading quite a fair amount of it, I've seen more than a few 'author' photos. Not only is about 85% of slash written by straight women---a large percentage of that group are fat and unattractive. Many are typical fraus who are married with kids, but many own a lot of cats, if you get my drift. I suspect some of them are nearing 50 still virgins. They prefer slash (and I have even heard some of them go so far as to claim they detest 'het') because they can't really identify with a female protaganist who is in charge of her own sexuality.
They like to purport themselves as some sort of vanguards for gay rights, but when you call them on their inconsistencies, they admit that the idea of two men is just their 'fantasy' and they can write about whatever they want without having to explain themselves, but it is really a way to avoid writing or reading about strong women.
Try to read even a fraction of it and it invariably reveals itself to be basic romance writing. What grown man would be interested in reading that tripe? And mpreg is just vomit-inducing.
There are so many better, more immediate things to be all up in arms about than Sally Housecoat fawning over Brokeback romances . . . Geez.
We must be into different fandoms... Not many 50 year olds in most of the ones I'm in, mostly 20 year olds with some teens and some over 30. And a hell of a lot of them aren't straight.
Most slash is total trashy romance or trashy porn, yes.
Here is slash fiction written by a male.
and you can deff tell it's a gay man who wrote it because it has less dialog and more sex.
[quote] 2. When done well it's incredibly hot/erotic. Like someone up thread already said, if one guy is hot, two is way hotter. We don't need or want a woman in the relationship. I guess the experience is a little more voyeuristic and detached that way.
Interesting r48. One of my straight brothers is really into "lesbian" porn and he pretty much gave that as his reason for it. Of course with porn the voyeuristic aspect is much more obvious.
R49, most fanfic writers I've encountered are 20-something college students. There seems to be a lot of 30-somethings too. So, basically, I agree with what R51 said. And, yeah, not many guys enjoy slash, but why would that be a problem. They write it for themselves, and their circle of online friends.
Also, I really don't see how it would qualify as appropriation of culture. If that were the case, every writer would be guilty of appropriation, unless they only wrote about themselves and people exactly like themselves. And a lot of the stories are just porn. It's not that serious. It's just a bit of fun and masturbation material for college girls (or 50-year old soccer moms, why not). I never understand why people get so philosophical about it, and why papers get written about it as if it were some puzzling, complex phenomenon.
Do you all believe authors must write from personal experience only? Great authors have always written from perspectives other than their own. Men give voice to women, women write as men. People write about historical events, people they've never met and worlds unknown.
You can say that slash fiction is 90% shit, and you'd be right because so much of it is written by people with no talent. But to say it isn't valid because the fraus (and teenagers--yes, lots of 'em) writing it are stealing someone else's life/experience is just profoundly ignorant.
R55, I think the quality to shit ratio really depends on where someone goes for their fic. fanfiction.net or whatever that place is called is tragic. But a lot of the slash on livejournal is pretty good. I never got that into it, just because I'm not big on romance and I prefer my porn visual, but there was a lot of quality stuff. Good fic writers associate with other good fic writers, so once you've found one good author, it's not that hard to find others.
"Do you all believe authors must write from personal experience only?"
"Great authors have always written from perspectives other than their own."
Yes, but they did a bit of research. Most of these authors are just fantasizing.
This whole subgenre has infested gay fiction as well. If you look at the the gay fiction listings on Amazon.com, all the "bestsellers" are shitty codpiece-ripper Kindles scrawled by women writing under idiotic pen names.
Real literature gets lower sales because they aren't giving it away like these horny typist fraus.
[quote] How can you hate on women for liking gay men.
Some posters here simply hate women, period. If slash fiction was written by straight frat guys they'd love it.
Why would straight women want to read this?
First, straight women like men. What's not to like about two guys (usually hot)fucking? I'll bet these same women are not interested in reading about two women.
Second, it offers a respite from the tired hetero relationships, whether in bad fiction or good. Some women are tired of the representation of females in the usual fare. This may be a welcome novelty.
Gay or not, you can pretty much tell the difference between a male and female author.
I've read a few Jared and Jensen ( Supernatural with a huge frau following) stories. However, if a male is writing this crap, they are gay, gay, gay, not straight.
I swear one of them was written by a dude. Way too much knowledge about gay sex. For instance, how would a female know how a prostate feels during fucking?
Let's put it this way. If I ever wrote a slash fiction story, I certainly wouldn't release my identity.
[quote]Yeah. Why do you get off on stories about men getting pregnant?
That's fucking disgusting! You have to be demented to get off on that shit.
R60, there are guides on the technicalities of how to write porn. It is not that difficult to look up.
"stories about men getting pregnant"
that's just insane
writing about gay men is one thing, but writing about (thinking about) men getting pregnant is deeply insane
I love reading Stargate slash fiction. You can't believe how many Jack/Daniel stories are out there.
[quote]One of my straight brothers is really into "lesbian" porn
Male pregnancy stories are considered a fringe kink (at best) and totally freakish and weird at worst, among most fan fiction writers. They're definitely not the norm. Most slash writers write m/m romance and erotica and nothing more.
Like all kinds of writing, most of it is crap, but some of it is very good. I like good fan fiction for shows and movies I like, because at its best, really good fan fiction (whether it's romance or otherwise) extends the enjoyment of your show/movie/whatever. I once read a 16-chapter Harry Potter/ Draco Malfoy novel set 15 years in the future that was amazing, for example.
Nobody "gets off" on male pregnancy stories. It's not an erotic thing.
Exactly R62. In addition to research, I have to think some of the better authors must run it by a gay friend/editor to check for accuracy on the details. Again, not all that hard to do.
Still, there are certain things that ARE funny. Condoms and lube magically appear out of no where, guys cum from prostate stimulation alone EVERY TIME, men are multi-orgasmic (like a woman). Nutty.
Like I said, you have to suspend disbelief. It's no different in straight romance erotica where every sexual encounter is OTT and a little ridiculous.
BTW, I really can not stand mpreg. I also can't stand the ever increasing proliferation of slash fic where the characters are werewolves, vampires, zombies or aliens. That's the kind of gimmicky shit you have to do when you can't write.
I think it's hilarious. There are many more things deserving of derision in this world.
I once anonymously asked an mpreg writer why the hell she did it. She said she had "a fascination with the belly", and that she also wrote "feeder" stories, about celebrities gaining tremendous amounts of weight.
Yes, I was sorry I asked.
So, Slash fiction advocates barebacking, then?
Actually condoms are pretty common.
Here's an example of how popular slash and yaoi are.
In my post at r26, I linked to an online yaoi written by a gay man. He wants to publish it as a high-quality book, so he started a kickstarter campaign to raise $7,000 and get the process started. Donors will get an early copy. He put a one-month limit to the campaign, hoping to get funding within that time.
He received the $7,000 within 48 hours. Within 4 days, he had $10,000. Who knows how much he'll end up with by April 9 when the campaign ends?
Seriously, this is a HUGE market. If you can write m/m romance you'd be an idiot not to, because there is such demand for it and fans will pay a lot for the high quality stuff.
Back in the late 80s I dated a guy who wrote bodice ripping straight romances for a living. He claimed that he got off imagining the straight sex, even though he wasn't straight. I found it weird then, but his books did really well for him. Very nice apartment on the Upper West Side.
Straight men obviously get off on lesbian sex. And for a long time, fan girls have been writing slash.
Some of the slash is really, really awful and a small amount of it is really good. I know a guy who writes it as girl because he says women like the idea of a girl writing it. He tries to get flowery and all that.
It's really strange and fascinating. The whole thing. But I read slash and I don't care if it was written by a guy or a girl as long as it's hot.
[quote]Why do you get off on stories about men getting pregnant?
I don't read slash but that storyline sounds hilarious if only for the fact that it evokes a shrill reaction from males. hahahaaaa.
I often wonder if celebs read some of the slashfics featuring their own characters. Like the Twilight boys. There's a TON of it out there.
If I remember right Peter Wingfield (Methos in Highlander) read some Methos/MacLeod slash fiction on stage at a convention. The writers on Supernatural clearly have read some of it, so I'd assume the actors are at least familiar with it.
The fact that so many of us (myself included) have the "yeccch" response to male pregnancy probably means it's equally appealing/fascinating to some. If slash gets its power from a certain type of sex-role transgression, that would be the ultimate one.
Joshua Jackson staged a hilarious reading of Pacey fanfic a few years back, but I don't think it was slash.
I know Tom Felton is very aware of the copious amount of Draco/Harry slash there is.
I had no idea there was slash which has MEN getting pregnant, sound terrible to me.
Mpreg is a tiny weird subgenre of slash. Even most slash writers find it weird. Men getting pregnant has a long history in SciFi, but it's usually portrayed as a horror. See: Alien.
I used to like fictional slash about tv/movie characters but now I like some rps (real people slash) about boy bands such as Beatles (when John/Paul were young and cute). The passing of cute little Davy (*cries*) makes me want to find Monkees slash.
There is a lot of bad slash but some good slash, even some good slash written by women. I always find the slash written by lesbians to be intriguing since that's one group who may not get sexual kicks from picturing two men together but likely enjoy writing slash b/c it's a gay couple they are portraying so it allows them to write and get read writing an egalitarian relationship.
Most slash readers are squicked out by mpreg. That's why mpreg stories come with warnings b/c most of the female readership is uninterested in those types of stories. The most read slash is pwp (porn), angst, established relationship, first time, hurt/comfort and kinks. MPreg and animal stuff is an acquired interest for a small segment of the slash fandom.
OP, just so you know, the ebook you link to isn't slash fiction. Slash is written about media characters not just any two (or more) guys.
Artist Rodney Mansfield is small and flamboyant...and a black belt in karate. Too bad the work of art he really wants is firefighter Hunter Fallon. The gorgeous "straight gay" guy could never want the Runtback of Notre Dame, so when Rodney's handsome surfer friend develops an unexpected passion for the beautiful firefighter, Rodney does what's best for everyone and helps Jerry land his man. And if that wasn't enough to kill his chances, embarrassing Hunter by rescuing him from a firehouse bully seals the deal.
Hunter hates gay guys like Rodney...doesn't he? Then why can't he get his mind off the powerful pipsqueak's face...and hands off his body? Isn't it time for him to admit he's not such an alpha male after all, and that he's the property of the artist?
It's all over Live Journal. Supernatural, Star Trek, Merlin, Lord of the Rings, Brokeback Mountain, Pirates of the Carribbean, etc. There's fanfiction and slash about Viggo Mortensen, Ackles & Pavlecki, Colin Farrell, Frodo, Jake Gyllenhaal & Heath Ledger, various rock bands, etc.
Most writers of slash are definitely straight women over 40, many are over 50, and few of them have actually seen a penis, altho the better ones claim to be married.
Some do it for recreation, others are serious. They hope to develop a following and eventually get published. Some of them are quite successful, but still hang on to their day jobs.
The reason they succeed is because they're writing for a mostly straight audience of fellow straight females, and the women who read it know even less about gay sex then the women who write it.
Personally I agree with the poster from up thread who put it so eloquently:
"it is an appropriation of another's culture for the benefit of titillation without any real understanding."
If you want to check out the ones who eventually get published surf over to Dreamspinner Press. The authors have no problem directing you there when they finally get published.
Dreamspinner is basically a repository of hackneyed, cliche crap. It's a frau finger-banger typing pool.
R86, that appropriation comment is utter nonsense.
88, you're stupid. "Utter nonsense?" Did you create the characters? Did the writer? No.
There's nothing original about it. You're obviously an obsessed slash fan or writer.
"Some posters here simply hate women, period."
No, just stupidity and bad writing.
"If slash fiction was written by straight frat guys they'd love it."
Yes, Ma'am. It's called porn.
R89, you're an utter simpleton, and your replies are so badly targeted and misguided they border on parody.
Don't like it, don't read it, R89. Simple.
And trust me...as far as slashfic being "an appropriation of another's culture" ??? Please, there is no gay "culture" on display in slash fiction. The vast majority of it is a carbon copy of bodice ripper het romance....only with two men as the main characters. So much so that I've seen slash that I know for a fact is plagiarized almost word for word from straight romances. The only change being that the female character in the original is changed to a male. Slash writers don't give a shit about "gay culture" and make no attempt to write about it. Their audience is straight women who want the same basic formula that has existed for eons in het romance. Example:
Couple meets at the beginning of the novel.
Conflict is introduced early on in the story. For some reason they can't get together.
Couple is wildly attracted to each other but must deny their feelings.
Eventually the couple can no longer resist each other and kiss. It's so hot and they've denied their passions for so long that they let things go too far--maybe some groping, etc. But they get ahold of themselves.
More conflict is introduced
The attraction/love is so strong it can no longer be denied--relationship is consummated.
Conflict resolution and happily ever after
I write any fiction- straight, lesbian, bi, gay. I'm a bisexual trans. I feel like writing is organic, so characters usually come out or not depending.
I know you should 'write what you know', and that's great, but you end up sounding like a broken record.
I agree with another poster, if you're going to write this, do your research, try to be faithful and respectful of other peoples lifestyles & culture. I'm always very stressed about the possibility of offending people- I once wrote a screenplay on spec all about a random island off the coast of the US, and hadn't even been there or knew anything before I started!
At the end of the day, people are people, and I've been having fun lately with my writing trying to take out or change genders of I think I'm being too rigid. The gender spectrum is so wide. I suppose I've been in the gay community for most of my life, and have dated many different shades of gay & trans people. It's surprising how similar we actually are.
I really don't like most lesbian porn/erotica, and it usually doesn't turn gay women on. I guess the people making it cater for what men want, not women, and I think slash fictions probably the same thing. It caters for what women would find sexy, not other men?
From what I've heard, women like the power/domination/raw sexual energy thing. I think they feel like their gender roles and expectations get in the way, so they live vicariously through fiction where gender barriers don't matter.
Maybe a lot of these women would like to dominate their men a little, get a little rough and play dirty with their husbands/boyfriends/ wives, but feel they can't.
I know it must be weird as hell for a gay guy seeing all this slash cropping up- talk to some lesbians, seriously. I do actually love lesbian works that are blatantly from straight men- I'm not really bothered who makes it, as long as it's good. I don't care too much about men getting off to it either, just as long as I can too.
There's a certain power in being a desired sexuality- it can be annoying, upsetting (I could tell some horrific stories), but also, it's oddly amazing having the mainstream media fawn over your sexual identity. It just- greases wheels, makes things that bit easier and normalizes things. You get grudging nods and tuts instead of an insulting comment. I prefer it.
On a last note, I for one, would kill to see some rough, dominating lesbian erotica at some point. It doesn't exist, I've looked.
Seriously - whatever floats one's boat. We, gay men, should embrace positive feedback/depictions of gay male sexuality, even if it doesn't necessarily ring true. So much hate out there; so much resistance to even the slightest insinuation of M4M relationships, that Sally Housecoat writing Brokeback Mountain slash is SOOO far at the bottom of things to criticize.
Carry on, girls.
There's something very HBO's "Real Sex" about this stuff.
It's a chicken-egg thing: Guys build a treehouse and girls invade it so guys build another treehouse to get away from girls who always invade, and they do, o they build yet another treehouse...
No men read or write slash fiction, though, R95. That tree house is the strict domain of females. Just like the romance genre, it is created by and for women and girls. No men are needed in the equation--except as fantasy objects. You could say the same thing about werewolves, vampires and aliens that are so often depicted in erotic fiction. They are larger than life, objectified characters whose only reason for being is to deliver an orgasm. LOL--but I don't think aliens, werewolves and vampires get all huffy and imperious when their life experience isn't portrayed accurately.
Half the people here who decry slash fiction as unrealistic and implausible are going to turn round and watch some porno where three impossibly hot guys turn up to clean ze pool and end up fucking each other. It's what gets you off and it's really not a lot more complicated than that.
Actually there are some 'famous' male slash writers. One was Synchronik who's a lawyer numerous fangirls met. His specialty was popslash (Nsync) and neopunk (My Chemical Romance) but I guess he now moved on to baseball slash. He was always a RPS type of guy.
There is so much shitty slash fiction but when you find a good writer or a decent fandom, it's a lot of escapist fun. I think I've gone through dozens of fandoms. Currently I'm on The Eagle and Grimm thing. A lot of junk but a few diamonds.
I remember Synchronik's popslash. Some of it was pretty good. Didn't know he was a guy. Do you know anything else about him, r98?
R99, All I know is that he has a profession, he was nice looking, regular guy. He pokes fun at the Mary Sue fics and slash fics written by some of the girls, but nothing too bitchy.
I met a roommate of his or something (Helen) back during the boy band days. I don't really recall much of what she said about him but I do know he came up in conversation. I think they housed their slash at the same website at the time. She was gorgeous (I'm bi leaning lez) so I didn't ask much about Synchronik although I was fascinated at a guy writing popslash RPS. Helen's straight btw (too bad for me who was trying to pick her up).
Synchronik did such good popslash and great MCR slash. I'm checking out his current RPS obsession (baseball). I hope he moves along to football and writes some Tim Tebow slash since Tebow has that obviously gay thing that Lance Bass had and Synchronik captured so well in his fic. Synchronik's got an LJ, don't know how often he posts.
When I see this profound irritation about the existence of slash fanfic, it reminds me that there is no reason, except at its core homophobia, that prevents the characters from being 'slashed' or paired in their actual canon. The fact that so many of the characters aren't conceived with the idea that they could possibly be LGBT is more irritating than the fact that women with varying degrees of writing talent can conceive of the characters that way and write stories about it.
Star Trek has been around for almost fifty years why couldn't the new version have been re-imagined with a Kirk/Spock thing. Or Chekov/Sulu. It did get re-imagined with Spock/Uhura which I don't have a problem with, but hey it's the future why not try it the other way?
Why didn't BBC's Sherlock or CBS' impending Sherlock consider a Sherlock/Watson flirtation with intent in their re-imaginings. The BBC version sort of skirts the edges in that people make assumptions about the relationship, but Watson is exasperated and keeps correcting people. Since the CBS version has cast a woman as Watson...that actually will probably be an element now. No reason save homophobia that it couldn't have been before.
Of the hundreds of film and tv programs that get slashed, especially the ones that involve intense partnerships/friendships to begin with, there is generally no inherent reason why the characters couldn't have been LGBT and interested in/flirtatious with each other.
Why couldn't Smallville's Lex Luthor have been hot for Clark Kent or vice versa. Clark is an alien afterall. Granted in this case you're dealing with a closely controlled franchise, but still what exactly would have changed about those characters. Lex would still have been ruthless. Clark would still have been Superman.
Forest for the trees. Forest for the trees.
Great point R101. Why don't the producers pick up on this and give the fans what they want? But instead Starbuck was remade into a women.
"Why don't the producers pick up on this and give the fans what they want?"
Hollywood is very aware that homophobic fanboys and 13-year-old hormonal fangirls will spend fortunes on their products if they are pleased, but seems blind to the existence of obsessive slash-loving fanwomen. They'll buy 10 theater tickets, the directors-cut DVD and all the commemorative prop replicas, too!
I don't know why this is. Perhaps because slashing mostly takes place anonymously and online, so it's not showing up in their market research; perhaps because it's overgrown homophobic fanboys who make today's films still have a "no girls in our clubhouse" mentality.
Almost every piece of slash fanfic I've read has been absolute tripe.
Boybands have always had a clear homoerotic subtext. You'd never convince me it's not deliberate.
About Clark and Lex, Tom Welling said on a dvd commentary "The homoerotic undertones of that relationship is mindboggling." Indeed.
The actors themselves play the subtext. Rosenbaum and Tom Welling played up the homoerotica. Jensen Ackles and Misha Collins play up Dean/Castiel. Hell, even Jeffrey Dean Morgan unconsciously played up some weird erotic moment when John W. became possesed and held Dean against the wall.
The actors who do these shows and even sometimes films see the subtext and play with it but the moneymen will never acknowledge it. The SPN fandom is different in that their showrunners know about the 'slash' and acknowledge it on the show.
Boybanders and bandom guys knew it too and played it up. That's how we got Pete Wentz kissing guys, Ryan/Brendon Urie creating a stage show where they were accused of 'stage gay', MCR did it too (Frank/Gerard's kissing). Even the straightest member of that band joked about the fangirls having them 'have sex in stories' and seemed a little disconcerted that the fangirls even had the brothers Way have sex in fan fic.
The people who make movies know that there are plenty of women who like slash, they just don't give a shit about fans outside their 14 year old boy audience appreciating a movie. No wonder films are no longer appealing to a broad group and instead only make money b/c the ticket prices have more than doubled in the past decade. The folks who greenlight movies have no respect for women or gay men, all they care is that teen boys sit down on a Friday night in the theatre.
I think they play it up now, but I've always wondered where the subtext came from before anyone knew about slash, ie starsky/hutch, Kirk/Spock, Beatles.
Then why aren't you dead?
I read some a while back out of curiosity. It was fanfiction slash about two characters from a TV series. This was maybe four years ago. It was terrible.
The writer, who I learned was a straight woman, had obviously never had sex. It was pathetic and laughable. I mean not only did she not know crap about man on man sex, she was clueless about basic relationship stuff.
Even the straight bodicerippers I used to steal from my mother when I was 14 were more authentic than that crap.
[quote]I think they play it up now, but I've always wondered where the subtext came from before anyone knew about slash, ie starsky/hutch, Kirk/Spock, Beatles.
I want some Adam-12 slash.
Some of the kids from that One Direction boyband seem to be pretty openly teasing gayness and even hints of a relationship between two of them. (Sorry, don't remember names or specs - check out the "ass of whoever from the band one direction" thread for more.)
They're more explicit about it than boyband predecessors but there's always been that element for gays and slash girls to get off on.
[quote]Why don't the producers pick up on this and give the fans what they want?
Because most slash fiction fans don't admit to their little hobby/fetish, assuming, correctly, that their friends and family won't "get it." It's very secretive. It's HUGE on-line because it's anonymous.
Queer as Folk and Torchwood both had huge, vocal female followings that were engaged with the gay romances and the producers/writers/actors knew it. But slash does remain underground for women, and network tv/advertising is still run by straight males who refuse to believe anyone would find male/male action section. Only girl/girl action when the girls are hot is acceptable.
It's also because they don't need to - they know the slash folk will still fall in line and lap their product up anyway.
Rewatched the Monkees after little Davy's passing and noticed that the boys are constantly touching. Just wondering if it was written this way on purpose 45 years ago.
There are some straights out here who really, consciously or subconsciously, still think gay sex is a perversion. They're titillated by it. These women think a blow job is a really daring and rare undertaking. I know.
So they write and read these "exciting," titillating sex scenes, while regarding them as aberrant behavior, and they get turned on by it. I know this to be true.
It's the same reasoning that causes straight women to get turned on by gay porn. Most of these slash writers are straight women. But to be fair, straight men get turned on by two women going at it, too. Which I never could understand. But then, I have never been attracted to women.
[quote]Which I never could understand.
Clearly R118. So you don't have any authority to speak on the matter and assume you "know" what's going on in the minds of women who read/write slash. Trust me, they are not uptight church ladies. Quite the opposite.
R119, you know nothing about me. My mother was one of five sisters in a very close family, I had four sisters, two older than me. I work in an office environment with women.
I meant I was not sexually attracted to womnen. As for going into the minds of women, I can only go by what they say, and what I observe just as anyone else, including you does.
You aren't in any better position to know what goes on in someone else's mind than me,or anyone else,unless you have superpowers.
I never said I thougt they were uptight church ladies. You don't have to be uptight church ladies to have had limited sexual experience or be unsophisticated about sex. And people can harbor those sentiments whether they are conscious of it or not.
You sound pretty defensive. Maybe I hit a nerve. But honestly, you have no idea of the ridiculous stuff people believe about sex and expecially gay sex.
A lot of those women really need to get out more. I knew one woman who spent way too much time visitng gay pornsites to watch and look at pictures. She's voting for Romney.
Quite of few of the slashwriters have these fantasies where if they get absorbed in two men fucking they can ignore the fact they don't have a man to fuck.
Rather judgmental, R120.
I don't understand the contempt on this thread. More people writing about gays = more exposure. It's the same with women at gay bars. Straight women attending gay bars = greater equality for gay men.
A lot of slash writers are high school students.
From my experience in slash fandoms the slash-is-by-straight-women thing is overstated. It varies from fandom to fandom and website to website. It is consistently majority female with the occasional male writer or reader. Usually a huge chunk of slash fandom consists of not straight women, mostly bisexual but also a notable amount of lesbians.
[quote]I knew one woman who spent way too much time visitng gay pornsites to watch and look at pictures. She's voting for Romney.
LMAO. This went way over the top.
Just admit it, R120. You don't know any women.
[quote]No men read or write slash fiction, though, [R95]. That tree house is the strict domain of females. Just like the romance genre, it is created by and for women and girls. No men are needed in the equation--
Explain Nicholas Sparks, then. If the shit he writes ain't romance, I don't know what is. Some males use female pen names because a buyer might be more inclined to pick up a female author in the romance genre. The same is true for female authors in a traditionally male dominated genre.
Oh, and I'm male, and I've read a few slash fics when bored out of my mind. NTM, you have no idea who is really behind the slash fiction/fan fiction on the Internet. It could be anyone.
More than a few of those bodice ripping romance novels you see at bookstores are written by men, both gay and straight. There's money in it. I know a guy who writes Sherlock slash, but his pen name is female.
It is however perceived as a female genre, that's for sure.
Gay men do in-fact read and write slash, even one straight guy I knew of.
Hello, meet Alex Woolfson (gay man who writes m/m romance for a predominantly female audience):
Don't tell Jensen Ackles that, R127/128. He doesn't think female writers should write for males, and he hates doing scenes he deems, unmanly or gay..
That's why he hates Jared because it's so obvious Jared has a gay crush on him. That wife and kid of his are beards. He really wants Jensen. I feel sorry for him.
Jared: "Jensen and I… Sometimes I'm like, 'In my trailer, now!'"
Fangirl: "I fell in love with Jensen during Dark Angel ..."
Jared: "Didn´t we all?"
Interviewer: "The most famous celebrity you have made out with ...?"
Jared: "That has to be Jensen."
Jensen: "You wish."
Jared: "Jensen's gay. I've noticed it on set."
Jared: I don't kiss Jensen...in public. (:23 at video linked)