Gay Men Value Bitchiness Over Empathy

Why is that? As an example, if a young gay man posted on here that he was contemplating suicide, more than half of the responses would be along the lines of "Couldn't you have done it BEFORE you wasted your $18?". I know. I've seen it. Bigotry is met with intense disdain, but mainly as an opportunity for more vocal attitude. No action. Gay culture is all about the "me". There is little unity. It's about protecting yourself, and alienation other gay men. I'm 29 years old, attractive, partnered and gay and I just can't motivate myself to go to gay bars. It's not fun. Why is it that a lot (not all) gay men have an inability to see beyond their own opinions and beliefs? Anything they have not experienced or don't like, they "hate" and anyone who doesn't hate it is "an idiot" or "should die in a fire". It's frustrating being open and proud about your sexuality, but feeling so alienated from the culture itself.

• Someone isn't seen as a hot, cute twink anymore, and is pretending to be deep now. Loser.

• I'm gonna miss OLTL!

• OP is a closet case. Or lives some other removed life. This is a HUMOR site where people come to VENT and LAUGH. And exchange information. I'm sorry DL is your only exposure to gay people. But at least it's something.

• OP, you and me are the same age and I've noticed the exact same thing. It would be nice to have a gay friend or two, but I have none because so many of them are just such assholes that I don't even bother trying to make friends with them anymore. It's sad that instead of sticking together and being nice to eachother so many gay men just want to be vile instead.

• This is why dudes seek straight, bi, or closeted guys. Bitchiness in dudes is not cool.

• Do you think, OP, that every single straight person in America can walk into the hot, meat-market straight dance club in their town, throw their arms above their head and shout, "Finally! A place where I feel cherished and validated!"? Giving you a sense of belonging is a lot of responsibility for a pack of buzzed queens who are trying to hook up.

• That's because most American gay men are self-loathing assholes. .. It's pretty unique to this country. It's sort of sad too. That's why the word "gay" is really a misnomer in this society.

  Veritas

• [quote] OP, you and me are the same age Oh dear.

• OP, please tell us how you live your life with a high sense of morals and ethics. Tell us what you do on a daily basis to save the world. Oh, and if you truly are attractive, then this thread is useless without photos.

• You have a point OP... A "friend" of mine, or at least I thought of him that way before had moved away to go to undergrad school. He was such a nice, person. Years later I moved to the city where he was in order to pursue my graduate degree and hung out with him and his friends a lot. This guy had changed into a snarky, mean-girl type of cunt that I did not recognize and who was just an awful person. I may blame it as his hanging around certain queens but he chose to change into this person whom I just cant help but feel bitter. I must admit they were beginning to influence me as I was becoming someone who was very skilled at throwing shade for no reason but I checked myself and distance myself from them, only to find out that HE now had much to say about me...

• The gay community only exists in your head. You have to create your own communities in life.

• R10 I've seen this shit so many times it's sad. So, what kind of shit was your "friend" saying about you behind your back?

• A lot of gay dudes act like junior high girls, especially when together. Staying away from those cliques is advisable to retain one's testosterone and sanity.

• [quote]As an example, if a young gay man posted on here that he was contemplating suicide, more than half of the responses would be along the lines of "Couldn't you have done it BEFORE you wasted your $18?". I know. I've seen it. How stupid do you have to be to look for empathy on Datalounge? This is not a suicide hot line, it's a gossip site. [quote]I'm 29 years old, attractive, partnered and gay and I just can't motivate myself to go to gay bars. It's not fun. If gay bars are your only connection to the gay community, no wonder you're so fucked up.

• Is this Gaybro Pity Party members only or can anyone join in?

• Well, r10, believe it or not, two out of those same friends of his wanted to get it on with me... they revealed how he would insult my fashion sense of all things... wow, I'm sooooo hurt by that (lol).

• Everyone needs someone to shit on. That is the one thing I have learned from being on this site. We all need someone lower than us on the pole.

• Not all gay men are nasty little flamboyant queens. But the majority are.

• [quote]How stupid do you have to be to look for empathy on Datalounge? This is not a suicide hot line, it's a gossip site. And? So that means you're not obligated to be a decent human being. I get that. IT's kind of my point. [quote]If gay bars are your only connection to the gay community, no wonder you're so fucked up. They're not, and I'm not. You're being very literal and I'm not sure if you're intentionally lacking in cognitive reasoning or not. The bitterness of your words could serve a purpose I am unaware of, so I apologize if I'm misreading your intent.

• r16 here, I am r10 and meant to refer to r12 in my reply, sorry. I'm busy cooking lunch. But yeah, two of his friends wanted to get with me and they revealed that he had a lot to say about me. I mean I'm sorry if my sneakers are "so 2009" according to him but I am a full-time graduate student, I don't have time to keep up with the fashion trends of 2012! You know what I mean petty stuff like that he is very vicious. You mean to tell me that a friend of yours you have known for years move to the city you currently live in and he basically NEVER hears from you at all? I mean you ar enot his keeper but you could at least show your face every now and then, especially since when HE makes an effort to see and communicate with you, YOU snub him by always being "busy". He just became someone so different from the kind friend I once knew. I do blame the gay culture that he is so heavily involved.

  r10/16

• OP if that's you at R19 you have no reason to feel above it all.

• Your problem is in thinking that there is a gay culture. Your gay culture is what you make of it. Your friends, your family. If you are partnered and are happy why do you care if the bar culture is shallow and limited?

• [quote]And? So that means you're not obligated to be a decent human being. I get that. IT's kind of my point. No, the point is there is a place where I listen to people who want to kill themselves. It's called the suicide hot line I worked for four years in high school. I've never responded to someone trolling (or otherwise looking for attention) by threatening suicide, but I think it's pretty stupid to think that they're going to get the help they need on a site like this. If they truly wanted help, they would pick a more appropriate venue. [quote]They're not, and I'm not. You're being very literal and I'm not sure if you're intentionally lacking in cognitive reasoning or not. The bitterness of your words could serve a purpose I am unaware of, so I apologize if I'm misreading your intent. Actually, you are. You have completely unrealistic expectations for an internet site such as this. That's fucked up. And you seem to be extrapolating the behavior on this site to the gay community in general. That's also fucked up. Whatever you may believe, it's not all about fulfilling your needs. There are other people on this planet too and we have the right to converse as we see fit. It's not our fault you don't get the point of DL.

• True, R22. There is a desire to socialize with other gay men and connect, so that's where my frustration lies. I do like to go out for drinks, and it would be nice to so around gay men. But we tend to go to more neutral settings to avoid "the drama". And I know I sound judgmental, so insult away, but I really don't mean to judge or alienate anyone here, as it's the very thing I was venting about. My intent was just to vent the frustration and make an observation.

  OP

• Guy who likes men = Homosexual Bitchy queen = faggot If the shoe fits ..

  Anon

• The point of DL??!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Get real!

  Still%20laughing

• Not at all true. I find that the gays, deep down, are tres empathetique!

• Actually, R26, you get it a lot more than the OP does.

• Not to make the OP's point for him -- oh, fuck it. Here's my impression of R20: "My less attractive friend sure turned into a real typical bitchy gay when he moved to the big city for undergrad school! I was so dismayed to see that side of him when I moved there for grad school and started causing drama with his friends. It's not my fault that I'm a full-time graduate student who all his friends want to sleep with. That he had the temerity to diss the bridge brand fashion sneakers that I bought at some off-pricer (and then made a point of showing off) really spoke to his character - a fact I learned when I was playing two of his gossipy friends off against each other. I realized I had to distance myself. And now would you believe, my so-called friend is acting like he doesn't have time for me. Typical queen. Good thing I have graduate school to keep me fulfilled. It's a real shame what gay culture does to other people. Grad school."

• Gay bars are a vestigial artifact of an era when men who were interested in other men had almost no place to let that be known, other than after-hours watering holes. Why would a partnered man ever consider going to one, even then? And now, I can't imagine what would motivate him. Your friends should presumably be people who share your interests. Being gay does not constitute having something in common, any more than being straight does. If you live a community which is still so narrow-minded that this is not the case, work to change it. In the course of doing that, you WILL meet people who share your stated values. if you'd prefer to complain, doesn't that mean that you are part of the problem you're trying to describe? I remember Dan Savage's wonderful observation that he and his partner, parents of a ten year old boy (probably about thirteen now), have more in common with their straight friends who have kids than with their gay friends who have slings. Find people who share your values. A significant percentage of them will be gay. (Or you'd better change your values.)

• R27 Care to explain that statement a little more?

  Misty Circles

• R23, you know, I only used DL in an example because its a reference everyone on here knows. My post isn't at all specific to here and I am fully aware that Bitching and Pointlessness is the foundation of this site.

  OP

• OP, just to confirm - are you attractive? Are you a grad student?

• Let's face it, OP, R1 had you skewered from the off.

  That%27s%20what%20R1s%20are%20for

• "This is why dudes seek straight, bi, or closeted guys. Bitchiness in dudes is not cool." There are plenty of mean-spirited straight men (or "dudes" as you call them). The vast majority of all the crime in the world is committed by straight men. Self-loathing in "dudes" is not cool. "Not all gay men are nasty little flamboyant queens. But the majority are." Maybe some gay men would be less "nasty" if self-loathing gays like you didn't make unfair generalizations. You haven't met every single gay man in the world, or even the "majority." OP attacks all the "gays" for lacking empathy but he seems to lack empathy himself. Why don't you stop using some of the meaner posts here to represent ALL gays? You wouldn't use the posts at free republic to represent all straights, would you?

• R34, I'm not so sure that R1 was on the money. How do we know that OP was ever hot or cute? Well on his way to bitterness, though, which might be the underlying cause of the bitchery among those he observes.

• "Staying away from those cliques is advisable to retain one's testosterone and sanity." Uh, hello, testosterone is why men are much more violent than women. Maybe you should visit your local jail to observe how horrible "real men" can be.

• Because it's so much easier to be bitchy and laugh. It's so easy to hate. It takes strength to be gentle and kind.

  Morrissey

• I was never a twink. I've always been hot. I am not a grad student. I am a marketing analyst for an insurance company. Gay men don't lack empathy. They just suppress it in favor of being witty and/or what they think is cute. Which is fine, but I think always having that switch "ON" has caused a lot of harmful alienation.

  OP

• I agree with OP. The worst is when you have to work with a bitchy queen.

• [quote]I was never a twink. I've always been hot. OP, after I read that arrogant remark, I'm starting to wonder if your attitude is any different from other bitchy gay men.

  Look in the mirror

• WORD!!

• My ex- was always a bitch, but when he became friendly with the mean girl-type who is now his partner, he became incredibly nasty and completely without empathy. And the friends we split followed those lines--the mean girls went with him, the people with feelings stayed with me. That said, I'm a bitch, too, but there's a difference between mocking a Project Runway contestant's outfit in your living room and standing in a bar with five mean girls with gaybitchface trashing everyone within earshot. Mary!

• OP is talking about east coast gays.

• Oh, EAST coast gays. That's very different. Generalizations about them are all valid.

• [quote]Gay culture is all about the "me". followed immediately by [quote]I'm 29 years old, attractive, partnered and gay and I just can't motivate myself to go to gay bars. It's not fun. The fact that most people are too stupid to know how dumb they really are is the fabric holding our society together.

• Whatever r29... I'm sure there are two sides to a story and my "friend" has his side to it in which he is not in the wrong and how I am the one who has changed but I am being as objective as possible in recounting the situation. There is A LOT more I could say to make my point but I will not assassinate his character just to prove something here. My whole objective was to demonstrate my reason for agreeing with the OP about an ugly side of the gay community that manifests itself in many ways. I never claimed to be hot or to throw it in anyone's face that I'm a grad student. My point is that my "friend" was once a really nice guy and he has become a passive aggressive cunt, especially against me (we've been through a lot together and I stood up for him when nobody would do so). And HIS friends flirted with me, maybe I smiled back and they began chatting me up. Yes I fucked one but I realized it being inappropriate and I stopped the affair and did not let the other one get any further with me. And it really has nothing to do with him but out of respect for him I ended it. He has no right to treat me the way that he has.

• Marry me, R46.

• R46, since you seem to place value in self-awareness and intelligence, I think you should be aware that you are incorrect. Providing background and experience in a personal observation is not selfishness. It's clear I'm referring to decisions made on an interpersonal level when I say it's all about "me", so please explain your intentional denseness.

  OP

• There are selfish, superficial, mean-spirited bully-type assholes in every demographic, most definitely including the straight male one.

• [quote]so please explain your intentional denseness OP, you explain yours first, ok toots?

• Referencing yourself in a personal observation is not the same thing as ignoring others' feelings and situations in favor of one's own superficial wants and desires. The fact that I had to explain that is silly. Why not discuss your own observations and experiences? That would be more effective than dismissing a viewpoint you disagree with willful ignorance.

  OP

• OP, you are a dime a dozen. There are selfish, blind morons like you on every bulletin board, complaining that the site, and by extension the "community", isn't fulfilling your needs. Get over it. The world revolves around the sun, not around you.

• K

  OP

• [quote]I'm 29 years old, attractive, partnered and gay and I just can't motivate myself to go to gay bars. It's not fun. Try being 47 years old, unattractive, unpartnered, and gay. Talk about not fun.

• [quote]I was never a twink. I've always been hot. R39, thank you for providing this important background. Your keen insight demonstrates that you understand that no one wants to talk about empathy with a fug.

• "if a young gay man posted on here that he was contemplating suicide, more than half of the responses would be along the lines of "Couldn't you have done it BEFORE you wasted your $18?". I know. I've seen it" No you haven't - you horrible, hideous 'phobe troll...

  Never while I've been here....

• r37 is bobby trendy!

  flamers are gross

• gay men are cunts to eachother!

• This thread is a classic case of attacking others for your own traits. Republicans are famous for it. OP is guilty of it as well.

• OP, I think the most important question in all of this is: Who do you think will win Best Actress - Meryl, Michelle, or Viola?

• Be quiet OP. Gays are perfect. There are NO problems in our communities that we need to acknowledge and work on improving. NONE. Now run along now and never speak of this again.

  A Gay White Guy

• Regarding this board. For the most part it's anonymous and the posters are strangers to each other. Depending on the kindness of strangers is futile when this board is a welcoming place to release all that anger, bitterness and frustration that builds up in posters for some time (that Angelina Jolie, what a bitch! traveling around the world picking orphans like souvenir snowglobes! Bitch, bitch, bitch!). Furthermore not only gays but pretty much everybody has built walls around them after they got deeply hurt by someone and no longer want to experience the same level of hurt ever again. So they have defense mechanism to not let people get too close. It feels a lot better to reject than being rejected. Making fun of yourself is a pre-emptive strike making it clear to people that their mockery won't do the harm they hoped it would cause. When you open yourself up to someone you are vulnerable. People don't like to be vulnerable, because they are sure that they sure get hurt (taken advantage of, made fun of, treated like a doormat, etc.). People get scared and paranoid when they feel vulnerable (when comes the blow, what will he or she do while I'm vulnerable, etc.). The only trust a lot of us have is that when we let someone in we're gonna get hurt. It becomes a physical and psychological law for us that sooner or later we will end up with a broken heart, so why bother trying? Keeping people at arms lenght means you hold all the power and they beg you for every tiny bit you let them come closer and keep on trying when you push them further away (and if they give up it means that it wasn't meant to happen anyway).

• [quote]Who do you think will win Best Actress - Meryl, Michelle, or Viola? I haven't seen it yet, but I think Meryl will win. I thought Viola was awesome in The Help, though I didn't really like the movie. I'd be okay with any of them winning, and feel each one has an undeserved loss in their past (Viola - Doubt; Michelle - Blue Valentine; Meryl - She-Devil...not even nominated! Shame!).

  OP

• [quote]Bitching and Pointlessness is the foundation of this site. (OP) We know that, and it's 99% of why we read in here. It's fun. At the same time, when someone posts about a troubled life or situation, it is quite heartwarming to see how many sincere thoughts are offered by people trying to help.

  it's what I think anyway

• R63 says it all correctly. I believe this person is empathetic, and NOT the OP.

• I think a big problem with gay men here that we always have to be right and have the last word. Yeah, it makes it fun sometimes, but when it's not fun it's REALLY ugly.

• OP and R67=right wing homophobe trolls. Obviously so. And you dumbasses fell for it. I've seen those suicide threads and the majority DO NOT come in saying JUMP JUMP JUMP even though that is traditional in heterosexist society, or indeed, in crowds of any kind. As for bitchiness, compare DL to Free Republic and other republican sites and we all seem like altruistic saints. We are not particularly bitchy or negative. There are some exceptions, the most important being people who think it's okay to trash or negotiate gay rights because we've all heard the same fake non-arguments over and over for decade after decade after decade and we are tried of hearing them. All have been debunked.

• ITA, r65. It can be a rabid pack of harpies around most of the time but when someone posts about their health/family/awful situations, they usually do get sympathy. Maybe that's because most of us have been through that sort of BS and know what it is like.

• Anyone who bases their view of Gay Men on what they read on Datalounge is an idiot.

• Gay men of the 21st century DEPISE The Boys in the Band because the characters are self-loathing fags, but that is exactly what they are themselves - Mart Crowley characters.

• I don't think all gay men are bitchy. However, I do think that a greater proportion of gay men are emotionally damaged and nasty than straight men. I've always found that I get along with straight guys much more than gay guys. I've found far more emotional support from my straight friends than the gay guys I've known. I think much of this is cultural, though. I understand the poster who said it's mostly an American thing. In my experience, though, it's not just Americans, but gay guys from anywhere who grow up in a repressive society where they internalize self-hatred. So I also see this kind of pathology a lot among Latin Americans, but not so much in Canada, for example, where people are much more accepting of difference.

• I found that out when I was 21. I'm 47 now. There are plenty of things to do instead of the bars. Travel, go the the ocean, etc. Bars are for losers OP.

  Been there done that.

• I agree with you OP. Your observations are right on!

• For whatever reasons, non-gay men tend to be more laid back and chill than openly gay men. There are many exceptions, but the large majority of my straight male friends are very chill, low maintenance, nondramatic, whereas about half the gay dudes I know are rather melodramatic and negative.

• It's not true R75.

• I graduated in 2007. There was a clique of Mean Girl gays that ran the school, even the jocks respected them. These guys were so unfriendly and catty to anyone who wasn't "popular", but everyone thoughtthejr behavior was so cute and charming. Back then, I wanted so badly for them to like me but they looked right throught. I was the nerdy, unfabulous gay that liked video games and Lord of the Rings. At senior picnic I got a chance to sit with them because one of my hags was a mutual friend of theirs. Even though they didn't speak to me, it felt nice to be among other gay teens. That's all I ever wanted.

• r 77 Never happened! Didn't exist!

• What kind of idiotic frump extrapolates from the Datalounge website's culture to condemn all gays in general? OP, at least one of the bitchier/wittier "gays" on this site is my vaginaed friend posting incognito as what one would assume is a gay man. She's a A&E promo copywriter here in NY who visits this site to stay sane.

• Well now, times have sure changed. Trying to picture that scenario in my high school. I hope to God you got over that attitude in these past 4 years, 77. Either that, or you really, really read things real wrong.

• R72 has a really good point, that this internal conflict builds in groups that meet heavy-duty repression. If you are a member of a part of society that is oppressed, racial and religious minorities, women, and GLBT, are pretty much universal examples, everything that is hard to find and valuable such as jobs, promotions, and partners, are going to be harder to get than for those people who are part of the dominate culture. Anyone remember the Richard Pryor skit on SNL when he remade "Black Like Me" as "White Like Me?" He turned himself white and suddenly he applied for credit and got it, he applied for a job and got it, etc. That's the process. Everything is harder when you are in the oppressed minority. Everything is more stressful. That warps the way you look at the world. Then also you gather with others who share your identity for support and comfort, natural enough, but that means your hang out with the people who share the same shortages you do, with whom you compete for the same tiny slice of pie, so they are at hand when you feel like spitting venom. That wouldn't happen nearly as much if no one had problems getting a job, getting an apartment, getting married, if we had a society in which everyone understood that for every person, gay, straight, black, white, man or woman, there was a more or less equal chance for economic security, personal fulfillment, and simple respect no matter who you are.

• Good, fuck off, I hate meeting "partnered" guys at the meat market. And while you're at it stay off of hookup sites and Scruff.

  annoyed%20single

• [quote]Anyone remember the Richard Pryor skit on SNL It was Eddie Murphy.

• The internet is proof that anonymity brings out the worst in people.

  http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/215499488_8pSZr-L-2.jpg

• When a child sees, from his earliest awareness, that to his core, he is repulsive and disgusting and hateful to the world he lives in, it shouldn't be a surprise that he grows up to be hate-filled and to express his digust with the world he encounters.

• [quote]It's frustrating being open and proud about your sexuality, but feeling so alienated from the culture itself. The culture...what culture? These words...culture, community....they don't make sense. If you're in a relationship why go to a gay bar? [quote] proud about your sexuality, Proud? Why should anyone be 'proud' to be gay. You really mean unashamed. But, proud? That's where you find pride in yourself? It seems like you invest too much of yourself in your attraction to the same sex. You then expect your sexual preferences to give you more than you're getting. [quote]I'm 29 years old, attractive, partnered and gay and I just can't motivate myself to go to gay bars. It's not fun. What were you hoping to find at the gay bar? If you're all those things you profess to be, why would you want to hang out at the gay bar? Being gay isn't a ticket to paradise. You just sound like someone who finds it hard to make friends, gay or straight. Yes, lot of of gay men are bitchy and mean, but some are terrific. Same in the hetero world. Most straight men are boring and just want to talk about sport and girls with big tits. The ones that don't, don't expect to find stimulating conversation at some bar or pub. You're too wrapped up in your 'gay' identity and not your identity as a human being. No wonder you're disappointed and flailing about.

• r85 Jeffrey Dahmer, Randy Kraft, Gacy, Kunanan etc etc..Yet they killed other fags!

• [quote]If you're in a relationship why go to a gay bar? To have drink and socialize. But you're right, gay bars are not really acceptable venues for this, so I usually end up at straight bars, where both single people and coupled people are welcome.

• Gay men can be sensitive, perceptive, loyal, and deeply empathetic. AT THE SAME TIME, there is a tendency within many gay men to be bitchy, judgmental, trivial and dismissive. Many conversations between gay men are throwdowns, with no actual listening going on. Gay men will benefit if they give in to their better instincts and drop the defensiveness. Deal with it.

• It's so late in the thread, but I must wonder about the OP bitching about bitching and showing no "empathy" (not understanding, of course, that what is meant is "sympathy") while deploring its lack. Tsk.

• OP and others need to look in the mirror. What do you see? That's right. A gay man. Therefore your feelings and perceptions are ALSO part of the broad range of feelings, perceptions, modes of dealing with the world just like the retarded, trite, easy, cliched stereotype you're clinging to and trying to apply to other people (never yourself, natch).

• R90, no. You need to learn the difference. It's empathy.

• I have known far more gay men who are nicer, funnier, more accepting, and awesome, than I have ever known in straight guys.

• I was on this pathetic gay website called realjock once, and I could never return there. It was easily the most anti-gay website i have ever been. They would have discussions about how awful gay men are and how wonderful straight men are. It was easily the most self-loathing, homophobic web site I have ever seen. Far more greater than this website. A lot of those guys' pics seem pretty fake too. They all poses for the camera. Most are single. Not surprising.

• Empathy is considered a weakness and some gay men hate nothing more than to proove their enemies right by acting weak. Members of the gay community have their own alpha male (or Queen Bee) hierarchy fights. Some gay guys have self esteem issuses because of things authority figures (parents, close friends, etc.) said to them and they cope or compensate by becoming overly materialistic, status obsessed, and bitchy.

• Like others have said, those groups that feel they have a very thin slice of pie tend to be overly competitive (and overly judgmental) with each other. By the same token, many in the oppressed group tend to overidealize and glorify the dominant group, anxiously ingratiating themselves to them and attempting to win their approval and validation. But the dominant group isn't inherently better than anyone else, it's just that by virtue of being at the top of the food chain, they don't have to deal with the same issues that everyone else does. If you were to put straight men in a situation where they feel like they have very limited opportunities at the hands of a more dominant group, they would quickly turn on each other like rats in a cage.

• 90% of gay men are shallow

• That's not true R97.

• If it were true, there would be no "bear" culture.

• What is the difference between masculine men who are mean and snarky and [childish epithet posted by a bigoted tool] men who are mean and snarky?

• Nothing, r100. Except some of the men are masculine.

• Butch men are just as snarky. They just use less esses in their speaking voices.

• Gay men are really groups of different ethnic and religious culture who only have one thing in common - being gay! They are just as snobbish about money and success (maybe more so) than straight men. I think it's a defense mechanism and a way to make sure no one can hurt them anymore. There's an awful lot of pain and anger out there in the gay world, including those in their 20's and above.

• OP, be glad that you can recognize something is wrong. I can relate to your original point of view. I believe it wittles down to selfishness combined with the fact that many guys (gay&straight) never mature to manhood. Even though it costs nothing to treat others well they are conditioned to trample whomever threatens their sense of masculinity. They are scared that they will be seen as expendable, like male bees in a colony. In turn the life they live IS pointless and futile because they reflect nothing. We are boxed in by technology and science to value everything monetarily and numerically and not the full span of the human experience. Out of power patriarchy has been in control for 2000 years and offers an increasingly narrow definition for what it mean to be male. You have the free choice to adopt or reject this model based on your experiences with it. For me, being male means that I must protect those who are weaker and learn from the wisdom of the experiences that others can share.

  *

• Water finds it's own level. If you're an asshole, you will eventually fill your life with other assholes. No sex pun intended. Bitching about how bitchy everyone else is? That just makes you another bitch. Why do you think the gay community is about bars and bitchiness? You think that's what got us through the worst of the AIDS epidemic? Selfish cuntiness? Not a fucking chance. Meanwhile, there's a reason "callow" and "youth" go together. Who is it that keeps up with the "eldergay" comments. It's the young and selfish. One of the joys of being mature, is that you've moved on from being a self-centered piece of shit.

• [quote]Meanwhile, there's a reason "callow" and "youth" go together. Who is it that keeps up with the "eldergay" comments. It's the young and selfish. Sorry gramps but that's kind of bitchy in itself. You had me and then you ruined it.

• [quote]Gay Men Value Bitchiness Over Empathy To be fair OP, straight men do this too. A lot.

• The easiest way for someone who's experienced a lifetime of feeling left out is by joining a pack of similar people and excluding others, even if just temporarily. So falling into a mean girl clique is the default social mode for the kind of gay man who wants to hang out at clubs, bars and parties. Then they reinforce each other's behavior.

• [quote]I may blame it as his hanging around certain queens but he chose to change into this person whom I just cant help but feel bitter. Oh dear.

• r106, you validated my point with the condescending "gramps." You failed at taking the high road.

• R71 - "The Boys in the Band" was a piece of over-dramatic histrionics AT THE TIME. If you think it has anything to do with 21st- century gay life, then YOU are the problem...

  Or a shit-stirring 'phobe...

• Puhleeease! DL is like a re-script from Boys in the Band!

• FAIL, gramps at r110. I'm likely older than you. I validated nothing except the pathetic defense mechanism of someone who knows they were wrong.

• OP sounds fat.

• False dilemma. It's easy to be bitchy and empathetic at the same time.

• In my experience I have met several gay men. Some have been very nice and some have been very bitchy. I would have to say the bitchy overpopulates the nice. It seems to me that the majority of gay men have a need to prove they are better than everyone else. I assume that this stems from a self esteem issue along with testosterone enhanced competitiveness and the stigma of gay culture. I have not observed straight men making a daily issue of being straight and few lesbians making the same issue of thier sexuality. However, it seems to me that gay men have this thing with thinking they are extra special because they are gay. Your sexuality does not make you special. Being yourself makes you special!! If you belittle others for amusement or self gratification maybe you should seek some professional help because all that you are going to do is drive people away. If you are not a teenager, and if you are going to bars in the U.S. you definitely should not be, grow up and act like an adult. Cliques are a childish thing and should be left with the rest of your kiddy toys when you become an adult. It also does not help an already depressed person who is just trying to find thier place in society when thier own so called peers poke fun at them. I have enjoyed readin this thread and just wanted to leave my own rant:) I wish you all the best!!!

  Solara

• [quote]I'm 29 years old, attractive, partnered and gay and I just can't motivate myself to go to gay bars. It's not fun. If you're partnered, why do you need to go to gay bars at all?

• R104 sounds like Camille Paglia in drag. Uh, NO. You wouldn't find the same New York bitchy amongst the gays of Billings, Montana, would you? Why do you attribute DL's NY bitchiness to gaiety?

• How [italic][bold]DARE[/bold][/italic] the gay men here act so bitchy on this, a gay gossip board???? Is not the very purpose of this entire forum to provide empathy for suicidal young men? Is this not why we pay to come here?

• hi OP, I'm 28 and understand what you're saying. But I believe that the opinions expressed on places like Datalounge, actually don't reflect the majority of gay men. In the same way that youtube video comments don't reflect the average intelligence. I also think that the gay "voice" reflected in the media and at cub culture only belongs to a certain small but loud portion of the gay population.

• fags are cruel to other fags

• I know more straight guys who are snarky then gay men. I worked with a few recently. Always talking about people in negative ways. Honestly, negative conversations about others was all they talked about. Rude, vulgar, and obnoxious.

• R121 hit the nail on the head. Straight men can be bitchy when they want to be, and so can gay men. But gay men are a hell of a lot crueler to other gay men than they are anyone else.

• Unlike gay bashings from straight guys, right, R123?

• [quote]I know more straight guys who are snarky then gay men. Oh, dear.

• I'm on my iPhone, douchebag, R125. I'll gay bash your oh dear ass.

  snarky

• Actually, this raises a bigger question. Why do so many people; men, women, gay and straight...spend so much time criticizing others? I know it comes from insecurity and I am guilty of it, but it baffles me how many people sit around bad-mouthing others for hours....why is this normal?

• Jealousy, insecurity, etc.

• OP,that's because we are all anonymous. That's why. And also no one really takes another anonymous's word. Fact: had we all authenticated, and couldn't get away with our words, 100% of the responses would have went somewhere along the lines: DON'T John, we all love you, the world loves you. You are idiot...and other sentimental little nothings.

  Authenticated user outside of Datalounge

• People like to boost their own egos and give themselves a sense of validity. Putting others down helps to accomplish this. I don't like to talk about others behind their back and try to stay away from those who do, but being such a common activity, that's a lot easier said than done.

• I wouldn't say anything behind your back R130, that I wouldn't also say to your face.

• This thread is KNEE DEEP in...[bold] MARY! [/bold]

  You%20queens%20need%20to%20give%20it%20a%20rest.

• Exhibit A of bitchiness over empathy:

  http://www.datalounge.com/cgi-bin/iowa/ajax.html%3Ft%3D11029912%23page:showThread%2C9396232%2C1

• Don't mean and bitchy people have a conscience or morals? I would feel bad if I put people down.

• Well as I read I wounder how I will turn out. I am gay and 16 and reading all this from those who are older than me makes me think of how I will turn out to be. I do think it is very hypocritical for a anyone to start something about someone but never want anything ever done to them. I told a friend and my sister that if I ever became "hypocritical" that they should slap the shit out of me so that I could realize it. Oh, I hope that as a younger generation of LGBT that we are nicer. Though I do understand that there will always be people who are rude, but what I don't understand is why be so rude when living life as a happy person is so much more HAPPIER. ^_^ This also applies to those of all other orientation.

  Gay%20Men%20Value%20Bitchiness%20Over%20Empathy

• The snarkiness, bigotry etc on DL has nothing to do with it being a gay board. Rather the anonymity. Gay men and women are essentially no worse or better than heterosexual counterparts- in any setting. I'm afraid the OP himself is homophobic. I wonder what makes him think straight bars are any different from gay bars?

  charlie

• [quote]Why is it that a lot (not all) gay men have an inability to see beyond their own opinions and beliefs? Gay men acting like 14-year-old mean girls. Example #586

  OMG%21%20%20It%27s%20Justin%20Bieber%21%21%21%21

• try to cry out in the heat of the moment possessed by a fury that burns from inside

• Charlie's first couple of sentences are accurate. However, I think that there is often a difference in how gay men and straight men express that side of themselves. However, if you want to see some really nasty shit, have a look at youtube comments- that is not a gay site. On DL, it's an anonymous cavalcade where bitchiness is a sport. I like that sport, but I do worry about people who may post on here and not get it.

• If you abuse an animal enough, it'll eventually turn vicious and fight back. People are animals, so it's no surprise (to me at least) that many oppressed/repressed/abused gays eventually develop biting personalities. [quote]Gay culture is all about the "me". My sister asked me about this once. She said, "Why are all gay people so self-centered?" Well...lets see. We grow up feeling totally alone, alienated, and like the world is against us (at least I did...pre-internet, pre-Will and Grace days). We have to become our own strength if we're going to survive. On top of that we're not allowed to marry and rarely have children, so who the hell else would we be centered around?? Many of us end up self-centered by default. [quote]Why is it that a lot of gay men have an inability to see beyond their own opinions and beliefs? Anything they have not experienced or don't like, they "hate" and anyone who doesn't hate it is "an idiot" or "should die in a fire". I think what you're describing here is black-or-white thinking, and I'm guilty of it. For myself, I believe I developed this way of thinking as a result of growing up in a world where I had to look at everyone and quickly decide if they are with me, or if they are against me. They're either my friend and ally, or they're my enemy. It's sad to have to go through life like that, but it's reality for many gays (especially ones that don't live in big cities). Hopefully as society becomes more accepting of us, these symptoms of oppression will fade.

• R135, I'm sure you'll turn out just fine. It speaks volumes that at your age you're thinking of how you treat others (while making an effort to not be a hypocrite). We could al learn something from you...if only most of the people here weren't so jaded.

• Being GLBT, you are not a minority that has a family or a homeland. Your family are likely to reject you, and there is no geographic origin. Yes, you can 'hide' your difference, and in a way that gives you the opportunity to be accepted as 'normal' ad this is something that most other minorities do not have the option of, but it isn't exactly a get out clause, and usually has repercussions. I have read extensive research on black kids growing up in a white family and how damaging that can be. For most GLBT kids, it's the equivalent.

• You have to separate calling people out for entitled, delusional, self important comments and actions from true bitchy comments. A lot of the comments being categorized as bitchy are actually targeting the people who themselves have embedded hypocritical, bigoted positions. In today's society where everyone gets a blue ribbon for participating rather than in the quality of that participation, we have allowed people to believe that all opinions are valid. In fact, they are not. Taking someone down a peg is not bitchy. It's the law of the (DL) jungle. Kill or be killed.

• OP says..."Why is it that a lot (not all) gay men have an inability to see beyond their own opinions and beliefs? Anything they have not experienced or don't like, they "hate" and anyone who doesn't hate it is "an idiot" or "should die in a fire". You're describing personality disordered people. Mostly borderline PD you are painting paired with a lack of higher education and messy-queeny to boot. NOBODY is seeking them out.

• Don't mind negativity, R143, But sometimes it's obviously very defensive.

• r140 Makes the best case. As a gay person growing up you do not have positive role models in your own home (usually) and never know who you can trust not to reject you because of your sexuality. As Ellen put it once, Growing up in a minority household, at least you have the feeling that 'we're all in this together'. As gay people we don't get that. The bitchiness is worn/used as a protective shell by a lot of gay men.

  Anonymous

• I think I know what you're saying; I think of myself as being around the "periphery" of the gay world. Actually I don't even care for the word "gay" and prefer homosexual. When more bars had backrooms/orgy rooms before AIDS, gay bars were, for a short while, wild, fun, more inclusive places. They have become dull, insipid, uninteresting places as are straight bars, especially the sports oriented ones. Gay men generally, in lively yet pointless conversation, seem to try and outshout each other although this may be a generally male characteristic, straight, gay or in between. To me nowadays there are few less friendly "social professionals" than gay bar bartenders unless it is the dealers at the various card or crap tables in any Las Vegas casino. One would think that for a generally despised group as gay men still are (although it is alot less, seemingly than say in the 1950s and 60s), there would be more comraderie but generally there isn't partly because it is seen as a sexual come on and unless you are cute you might find a frosty response. The gay world is more a loose anarchic confederation than a united federation.

  anon

• Because people on the DL are bitchy, then all gay men are bitchy? What do the youtube and yahoo commenters say about everybody else then? They are so cruel, they make us look like sweet angels. Now shut the fuck up.

• gays are vile,sadistic freaks. Hitler used them to torture jews then killed these scumbags.

  beatit

• OP is a closet case? What? He openly admits being a gay male in a relationship; your denouncing him in such a spiteful way is truly indicative of how horribly selfish and defensive gay men are. I can't stand to go to bars or clubs because of guys like you either.

• R77, I think that's the saddest thing I've ever heard. :( I used to be one of those MeanGirlGayGuyCUNTS when I was in HS (10 years ago).. I grew out of it. As I've grown, I've started to feel badly about how I alienated some of the other less-popular gay kids in school.

• Liar R149

• So, OP, after a year and ANOTHER $18, have ya killed yersef yet?

• I didn't re-up this year.

  OP

• This is true.

• There was a thread posted a few weeks ago- a young guy contemplating suicide. Most of the replies were either apathetic or, per usual, extremely bitch and encouraging him to go through with it. Apparently his thread was getting in the way of DLers posting in yet another Judy Garland thread.

• Another thread bashing the gay man. Yet we survive. We endure. No matter how cunts try and take us down we rise above it.

• no one has done ANYTHING to ANYONE on this thread

  lookin%20at%20the%20stars