Effeminate men and sexuality

no

Why not?

We have this argument every couple of months or so.

I know non-effeminate gay guys that are really homosexual, so why wouldn't I believe your scenario?

Depends on what you mean by effeminate. If they lisp or are unathletic, they may well be hetero. But if they stare longingly into your eyes, are touchy feely, and don't appear to tolerate the company of women very well, then I do generally have difficulty believing in their heterosexuality.

All heterosexual men are effeminate,they are the only ones who can have a long term sexual exchange of masculine sexual organs for feminine ones.Most homosexual men in reality do not have a clue of how a woman smells or feels like,most of us only knows the female body because of magazines or porn videos but we don't really have the ability to actually feel like "joint" to a woman's body the way heterosexual men do because we are not as receptive and passive to the stimuli of touching a vulva or a pair of breast as they are. Remember, effeminacy is not what society wants us to believe it is. I find Charles Dera's voice to be quite effeminate,yet he is very heterosexual.if I see that gay on the street I would think he is gay,no doubt about it.

Yes, I do.

My theory is that we are as convinced that effeminate men have to be gay as so many misguided souls in the 50s were convinced that masculine men could had to be straight.

Even in 2012, sexuality is still a great deal different than conventional notions would have it.

"But if they stare longingly into your eyes, are touchy feely, and don't appear to tolerate the company of women very well"

There's nothing effeminate about a man staring longingly into another man's eyes, being touchy feely, or not tolerating the company of women.

There's also nothing "homesexual" about a man not tolerating the company of women.

That would be misogyny.

Of course!

R8 has never met a Mormon.

I try to be open-minded and respect their self-definition. I don't want to think in stereotypes. But part of me just thinks "gay in denial."

The "macho" gay man is not the counter-example. People in our society have no incentive to live a gay life when they are really straight, so I have no trouble believing that a butch gay man or a lipstick lesbian is authentically gay.

more than 90% of same sex attracted males are NOT "effeminate" in the way the word is used here.

A learned accent and mimicked gestures and jargon are affectations, not some natural espression of gender.

Is there anything more pathetic than an effeminate heterosexual?

Femme straight guys are gay guys toying with you, or who want you to out them.

You never heard of Peter Sarsgaard?

By effeminate I don't mean anything affected, r14. Just a certain gentleness, and a bit of gayvoice, often combined with stereotypical gay interests--theatre, fashion, choir.

"voice" r18? You don't mean voice at all do you? You mean the accent mentioned in r14.

The T Southern Mamma's boy is a type which OP may be referring to.

No, I don't mean a learned accent, R19. A self-identified straight guy is unlikely to adopt a stereotypical gay behavior. The quality of gay voice can be inherent and natural.

Then I'd like to hear what you're talking about r21

When I was young I would have said no. Now that I've lived a few years, I would say yes. The two don't necessarily go hand in hand.

"A learned accent and mimicked gestures and jargon are affectations, not some natural espression of gender."

Please I've known guys who had "gayvoice" since they were in elementary school

r24, you're using terms without defining them. Accents are picked up from others and immitated. Same for gestures and jargon. You must be talking about something else. Vocal pitch maybe? If so, there's nothing about sexual attraction that would be related to vocal pitch.

First of all, homosexuality is a choice, which can be cured with intense therapy. Fortunately for all of you sodomites, I have received numerous government grants to run a rehabilitation clinic for gays, which will turn them straight, as they renounce their unwise choice. Secondly, I, myself, am extremely masculine, so I can be your role model.

Marcus yes, i bet that the high doses of pussy hormones that you are exposed to, gotta make you very but very masculine,don't you think????? what will come next in your masculinity tool box,your wife rimming your ass and fingering it?

To do a proper study of the hypothesis, one must begin in NYC, where there are thousands of effeminates to observe; then SF, where the effeminate population doesn't rival NY's , but is substantial nonetheless.

good idea

I never believe they are straight but I tell myself they are straight.

Sure there are, absolutely. We can test this using scientific methodology (the same tests that indicated that self-identified homophobes have about the same level of physical response to same-sex stimuli [gay porn] as do gay men, they just are not conscious of it).

As for "gay voice" there are patterns in speech that same-sex attracted men seem to have that cross cultures and languages. For instance, inflection and passive voice. Gay men are more likely to speak in passive voice than their straight counterparts, and they are also more likely to "assert through questioning" (my way of describing a rather complex process). Part of this process is the raising of the ends of our sentences so that it sounds like a question even when it is not. Some would contend that this makes us less likely to be openly confronted by those in power (straight men). These, along with other speech patterns, can be easily recorded, coded, and analyzed with targeted sampling.

These would be just a couple of ways to begin the process of exploring this phenomenon. I can tell you, though, it is intentionally socialized out of boys at as early an age as possible. Consider the following: Girls can be "Tom boys" until about age 11 or 12 without many consequences. There is absolutely no word with neutral or positive connotations for boys who are effeminate. It is not tolerated.

Do women tend to speak in passive voice?

It has been said, R32.

Also, do bisexual and closeted gay men exhibit different speech patterns than openly gay men, and do masculine gay men speak speak in the passive voice too?

Straight women have adopted effeminacy now over natural feminine behavior. Who the fuck acts like GaGa? She behaves like an effeminate bottom boy in drag. There is nothing feminine about her.

The entire gender natural lines have been convoluted. Masculinity and femininity have been twisted into hyper macho thug type or hyper affected prissiness, neither of which has anything to do with natural behavior.

Move to Sweden.

The "straight" guys are more feminine than the gay ones, and about half of the younger ones would be branded gay they go that far beyond metrosexual.

Butch it up, MARY!

r36, that is why I tend not to find Northern/Western European men attractive. I like southern and eastern European dudes more, especially Greek, Turkish, Czech, Hungarian, and Serbian guys.

Yes I have met effeminate straight men.

We have all met effeminate straight men, R39. The question is do you believe they are actually 100% straight in their desires?

R40 in the case of one of them that I've met, yes I know he's hetero/straight.

Nobody like effeminate men.

Not straight women.

Not gay men.

R42, I like effeminate men...

I like naturally feminine men, no exaggerated affectations or caricatures.

[quote] Nobody like effeminate men. Not straight women. Not gay men.

I like feminine men, not effeminate (mannered) men. Surprisingly, I have never been involved with one who later "turned out gay", either. They are all just sweet straight, sometimes bisexual men who aren't hung up on being creepy alpha males.

I also like feminine butches, or soft tomboys. Basically, I like the same type of person whether they're male or female.

[quote]Nobody like effeminate men. Not straight women. Not gay men.

That's not true.

I know straight and bisexual women who like effeminate men.

I have bisexual male friends who are effeminate and they've had male and female partners.

yeah

[quote]Nobody like effeminate men. Not straight women. Not gay men.

Proof?

Porn. No effeminates.

Straight porn, gay porn, any porn except tranny porn.

[quote] Straight women have adopted effeminacy now over natural feminine behavior. Who the fuck acts like GaGa? She behaves like an effeminate bottom boy in drag. There is nothing feminine about her. The entire gender natural lines have been convoluted. Masculinity and femininity have been twisted into hyper macho thug type or hyper affected prissiness, neither of which has anything to do with natural behavior.

I agree with you (and surprisingly, so would Judith Butler).

There are effeminates in gay porn, but their effeminancy is often edited out or proscribed on set. A lot of fans will make negative comments that a model seemed hot until they heard him speak or saw him display effeminate mannerisms. The biggest stars tend to be those who exhibit the most masculine or macho characteristics.

Then Porn is just like Hollywood R50.

Femininity is culturally, temporally, and contextually bound. I am more effiminate that my boyfriend, but not the queeniest of all queens in the land--more power to ye. He loves me and I love him. In the bedroom, though, we are both prettty masculine, whether we are topping or bottoming--direct in asking for what we want, guttural, verbal, instinctual, primed for scent, etc.

Don't judge anything by the gender games we play OP. It's silly.

Why would any man who is born in the western world want to act like a woman?

I've known flaming guys who were raging heterosexuals. If you're a man who's really into women, you either want to have sex with them or you want to be them.

I'm a gay guy who's pretty much indifferent to them.

But the most effeminate guy I know is a gay hairdresser top. When you get out among people in the real world you realize they come in all kinds of varieties, so I try not to generalize

hmm, do effeminate men want to be women?

"Why would any man who is born in the western world want to act like a woman?"

Some guys just aren't that macho. That's not acting like women, that's just the way they are. If we can accept that some women are "tomboys" why can't we accept that some guys are not macho?

I once worked very closely with a man who might be called effeminate by some. We became so close that some of the people who worked with us assumed we were lovers. Finally, one evening he came over to my apartment and stayed until the subways had stopped running. He asked if he could stay over and one thing lead to another . . . Turned out he was bi, the type of bisexual man who is emotionally heterosexual--he's only capable of having romantic relationships with women--but likes sex with both men and women.

Effeminate behavior is learned and made up like any other form of expressing. You like what you like you don't have to act like john wayne to like women or liberace to be gay. Geez, that shit is all MADE up!

That's bullshit, R58. Why in the hell would boys choose to act that way when it gets them beat up, mocked, and basically tortured, growing up?

I have a very effeminate gay cousin who was that way since the time he started to walk and talk. No one taught him. He had three older brothers and a very masculine father who hated him for it.

So, no, he didn't choose to act that way. He was born that way. In fact, he did his best to blend in and failed miserably.

Yet again, I have to do everything.

3 issues here:

Gender; Sexuality; Communication

3 different issues that should be discussed individually. Gender is what you have between your legs. Sexuality is who you fuck. Communication is how you talk, move, and the messages you send and context.

Stop blurring the issues here let's at least pretend to be knowledgeable.

Sure, the issues interact with each other but you all sound like a bunch of straights discussing this topic.

R58, Effiminate behavior has much more to do with hormones and T/E ratios. What you mean to say is that you believe that certain phrases and mannerisms are learned.

Happy to help.

I know many effeminate heterosexual men. Many.

A stat my psych teacher gave was that effeminate men are: 40% gay, 30% bi, and 30% straight.

Obviously that would vary based on who you define "effeminate" and other factors. I don't feel like going through the trouble of digging up and looking into the source.

Thanks R63. Even if your teacher pulled that out of his ass it sounds right.

[quote]I have a very effeminate gay cousin who was that way since the time he started to walk and talk. No one taught him. He had three older brothers and a very masculine father who hated him for it.

Same story with one of my dearest friends, although his redneck family came around. He couldn't be masculine if he tried.

Effeminate or masculine traits are all made up behavior. There is no right or wrong way to act if you like the same sex or opposite sex. I keep telling people that. A guy like rupaul can fuck a woman just like a John Wayne could, if he wanted to. Everything is made to be polar opposites of the two genders.

I've never encounter an effeminate straight guy. Extremely well-dressed and well-groomed, but not womanly.

I have seen a lot effeminate, closeted gay guys try desperately to be straight when they "date" girls. I despise them deeply. Not their effeminacy, their desperation to be straight. They are homophobic assholes.

Well it's one thing to be a closet case, r68.I think the OP was referring to men who are both genuinely straight and effeminate. Do they exist?

Good question, R69. I have never known an effeminate straight guy who was actually straight.

You guys seem to forget that effeminate or masculine anything is just learned behavior and made up, it has nothing to do with who you want to sleep with!

#shaking my head#

But even if masculinity/effeminicy is learned, that still doesn't explain why effeminate men usually choose to sleep with other men.It's absurd to suggest that "it has nothing to do with who you want to sleep with!"

[quote]just learned behavior and made up...

Thanks, Marcus.

No, R71. People are not forgetting your point of view. We are rejecting it. We learn to repeat behaviors that lead to rewards and to avoid behaviors that lead to punishments. There is absolutely no reward for a boy or a man to behave effeminately, and much punishment. There is no reason for anyone to learn to behave like that.

R74 that made no sense.

You guys are too condtioned I see and lost. Masculine behavior and effeminate behavior were created to even define the behavior of man and a woman. It has nothing to do with who you like to be in bed with. I've known guys who you might have thought they were gay because they fit a steroetype, but dated women. That's all effeminate and masculine behavioral traits are. Like mannerisms, those are made up as too. Being gay is not made up or learned. But Effemiate and masculine behaviors are.

R76 where is your dissertation on this? You seem full of opinions.

Let me try it again, R74.

R71 believes that effeminate behavior is learned and therefore "made up" as if we are all constantly actors playing a role that strikes our fancy.

Why do we learn to do some things and to avoid doing others? We learn to adopt new behavior that brings us rewards (approval of others for example) and we learn to avoid behavior that brings us pain (bullying, scorn).

The idea that a boy or a man learns to behave effeminately makes no sense because it will bring him nothing but pain.

Common sense points to the exact opposite conclusion--a boy or man is effeminate despite his best interests because it is behavior he cannot change.

r68, how would you even know they are closeted? and stereotypes are not a valid way to know.

R64, it's what I guessed before she said it, so it sounds right to me too. I might look it up at some point.

Definitely disproportionately few effeminate straight men, obviously way more than 30% of men identify as straight.

I found it interesting that 30% of effeminate men identify. In most stats I've read about half as many men identify as bi than gay (it's the reverse for women). But I think a big factor may be that effeminate bi men are more likely to identify as bi whereas masculine bi men are more likely to identify as straight.

Nonsense.

I consider straight men who act feminine to be dick-teases. It's like they're false advertising.

r82, that's because you erroneously and offensively associate male homosexuality with effeminancy. Your archaic notions lead you astray.

Effeminacy is found in men of all sexual orientations because masculine/feminine behaviour is mostly learnt. Only a tiny portion of our behaviour is innate.

Do you remember the Spartan warriors? Many of them were homosexuals and it was prefered that they were because it was believed that if they created romantic bonds with other soldier they would have another motive to fight fiercely, they would feel the need to protect their soulmate. They were considered highly masculine.

And what about heterosexual men in the past? It was common to see many effeminate heterosexual men in the past and it was told about them that their great love for women made them acquire the mannerisms associated with women.

Masculine/feminine behaviour is mainly learnt and circumstantial.

[quote] Gay men are more likely to speak in passive voice than their straight counterparts, and they are also more likely to "assert through questioning".

Are you sure you want to go there?

Everybody has a bit of femininity and masculinity respectively. It is good for some mental balance.

No man (heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual)is 100% masculine and no woman (heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual) is 100% feminine.

I'm in a class with an effeminate theater queen who has a girlfriend. He's young and has a girlfriend so I figure it's only a matter of time before he comes out.

yes, dude

[quote] Accents are picked up from others and imitated. Same for gestures and jargon.

This may be true some of the time or most of the time but what about my 8 year old second cousin who is the biggest queen I've ever seen?

I've written about him here before. The kid is a mincing, waddling, and fastidious effeminate He has been for years. This is not learned behavior.

En plus, he's obsessed with God. God will punish you, etc. If he doesn't mature into a gay man it would be extraordinary.

[quote]because masculine/feminine behaviour is mostly learnt.

Not true for me. I grew up in a male dominated, sports dominated environment all of my life and I make Carson Kresley look like Thor.

What do you mean by "mincing?"

Not for a second.

Behaviour is mainly learnt/acquired. Behaviour is not static; it varies through time. This has already has been studied. Imitation, positive influences of adults around you and many other factors shape our behaviour. Not that our behaviour is 100% learnt; there's a portion of it that is innate.

Effeminancy in men can be environmental, or innate. I have seen men who seem to be very feminine at first start to act more masculine when surrounded constantly by very masculine men. You tend to pick up mannerisms, interests, and ways of talking based on the people you socialize with. I have a somewhat feminine male friend who has gotten more masculine hanging out with my other masculine male friends at sports bars and playing sports. He has even developed a sort of machismo swag shooting hoops and talking about football. Environment matters.

We can say "effeminate" here now without being tasered by the Editors?

Many women subconsciously prefer heterosexual men who show some degree of femininity because it suggests to them that they might be better fathers than heterosexual men who are aggressive or steretypically masculine which is usually linked to some degree of aggression.

who cares r96?

I usually think they are gay, even if they are married.

I think it's part innate, part environmental. Your society's view on what is "masculine" and "effeminate" also matters. For example, straight men in Japan and Korea pluck their brows, wear makeup, etc to live up to a more feminine ideal of male beauty that is broadcast by the media and encouraged by the women there. Also like someone said above, in many cultures the "playboy", "skirt-chaser" type was traditionally imagined as a flamboyant man whose effeminate ways made it easier for him to interact with women.

Jesus the fucking fraus are out in force, aren't they?

In some cases effeminacy is the result of living in heterosexist societies were homosexual boys are not exposed to any expression of same-sex affection and how a same-sex couples interact.

In simple words, it is imitation of what they see around them. All we see is that boys feel attracted to girls and the mannerisms associated with them (girls). When you are a boy who is starting to have romantic feelings for the same sex but you see no example of same-sex affection, apart from feeling awkward for not falling for the girls all you are left with is imitating the behavior of the girls in order to get the attention of the boys.

If you pay attention, most displays of a feminine behavior in some gay men is evident/explicit when they feel attracted to a heterosexual guy they find attractive enough. It happens subconsciously that they will act in a more feminine way to get the attention of those men.

Femininity/effeminacy isn't attractive for most gay guys so it will not work with gay guys to attract them. No one ever told us that there are guys who actually feel attracted to other guys and the mannerisms associated with guys and ever since you cannot suppress your feelings and the need to share ranntically with the same sex all you are left with is imitating the mannerisms associated with girls to attract boys. Not that it will wotk, but it is all you know you can do.

I'd say MOST eff-eminate men are gay, but not all. There's definitwly some eff-eminate straight men out there too.

I've met a lot of 100% hetero Jewish men who have the nasally femmy "gay voice". So yes, in most cases, effeminacy is something cultural that you learn not something you're born with. Gay boys growing up in a heterosexist world learn from an early age that masculine men are attracted to girls so they begin to act girly.

Sure, why not? Although I think this:

Many people are to some degree bisexual.

Many effeminate men are not accepted as heterosexual lovers or partners (for the same reason you propose, OP; people just don't buy it due to social conditioning to buy in to conventional sexual stereotypes)

And these effeminate men, being, like most people, to some degree bisexual, but being rejected from heterosexuality, tend to orient themselves toward homosexuality.

I had a job interview with a Jewish guy in his early 30's. Flaming. Checked out my pecs and flirted throughout the interview. I was revolted. Really unprofessional, as I really need the job. Checked his social media and he's engaged to a woman.

The "stoic, quiet, reliable, kind, chill" kind of guy mode is going to become increasingly exotic as time goes by.

Most millennials are de facto homosexuals - ones that don't go for dick, but can't really get a woman off either. And bitchy and passive-aggressive as hell, too.

Femme guys tend to be nasty tops, which seems startling, however in my experience, that's been my discovery.

No just like there are not straight male flight attendants. Sure everyone insists there are but no one can produce one. Even when people have told me of the "straight" guy flight attendant, it always, repeat ALWAYS turns out the guy is gay.

R105, you're unemployed, single, and you're homophobic. Yep, sounds about right.

r107, most crossdressers and men who transition to female are heterosexual. Effeminate straight men would be more honest about who they were if they could assert their femininity and still be accepted as hetero and not assumed to be gays in denial.

Who said anything about single, R108? Only when I want to be.

I do. Many Southern guys are like this, even jockey athletic types, especially if raised by a single mom. Also I find that the youngest boy of a band of brothers almost always has effeminate traits but still be straight. However I'm the everyone is bi troll, and very few are strictly on either spectrum.

I love you r35.

Alex Saxon -

Stealth Timberlake thread!

"most crossdressers and men who transition to female are heterosexual"

No, most males who transition to women are gay but a solid minority (maybe 1/4) are straight.

It is association and imitation. A kid can easily see that the display of femninity in girls attracts most boys and ever since it seems your attractions align with the girls' some kids will eventually imitate girls' femininity to attract the boys.

Other times effeminacy can be triggered by the fact that mascuinity is taught trhough polarization with femininity (feminine is inferior; masculine is superior) and vilification of homosexuality.

Some male adults talk aggressively about homosexuality and some gay boys may feel threatened by this display of "masculinity" and will feel unwelcome by it so the identification with the heterosexist version of masculinity will not occur.

Women, on the other hand, are usually more protective of kids, especially when they feel these kids are some how vulnerable to mistreatment by their father. So the more time spent around women can make some kids acquire their mannerisms.

It is very common that people conflate sexual orientation with gender expression.

Jon Cryer, a heterosexual effeminate man.

You attraction for a certain sex has nothing to do with the way yu express yourself (gender expression).

Masculinity and femininity are concepts that vary accoring to culture/societies and are also affected by other factors as you grow up.

Actually, effeminacy more common in heterosexual men than it is in homosexual men. Did you know that most transvestites are actually heterosexual men?

"Did you know that most transvestites are actually heterosexual men?"

Transvestism is a sexual fetish that has nothing to do with effeminacy.

"Most millennials are de facto homosexuals - ones that don't go for dick, but can't really get a woman off either"

Stupid old people like to make silly generalizations like this.

Exactly, r121. Pure ignorance

I think all gay men are effeminate.

Not really.

I think it depends on the environment actually. More nurture vs nature really.

If a person is exposed to, or rather, know only a certain gay stereotype that person does tend to model himself to that particular sterotype.

I have never met an effeminate straight man. I've known some who were not athletic or into cars, racing and fishing etc, but I have never met a "sissy-ish" straight man.

Not really effeminate...

I think more like soft. More in touch with his "feelings". It does come out as being slightly effeminate... Unless of course you mean OT effeminate gay guy effeminancy.

Joshua Kushner is pretty effeminate and he's straight

I have met a few effeminate guys in my life. I particularly remember this guy who went to the same university I went to. He was very effeminate but extremely popular with girls. He had quite a bunch of girlfriends.

Later I found out that many women prefer men who are effeminate to some extent because it means they might better fathers.

Definitely, for gay guys identifying with masculinity is harder because you are constantly told and hear around you that having feeling for the same sex is horrible, you grow up hearing jokes about homosexuals and threatening discourses too so you learn to hide your sexual orientation from very early.

Under those conditions it makes harder for gay guys to identify with masculinity.

Relevant:

I find the stereotyping of gay men as "fabulous" not only inaccurate byt harmful.

No

Spartan soldiers were known for being homosexuals and very masculine.

Femininity and masculinity are mostly acquired and defined by culture.

Heterosexism is a disgrace for humanity.

There is this historical contrast in that homosexual men were viewed as masculine in the past and heterosexual men as prone to effeminacy.

Now, due to the segregation and discrimination based on patriarchal views, a portion of homosexual men while growing up have it harder to connect with what society calls "masculine". In a way, heterosexuality appropriate it masculinity giving it heterosexual connotations.

Here's an intersting book about how some gay guys acquire feminine mannerisms and become effeminate/feminine. Although masculine or feminine, all our mannerisms are acquired and are not determined by sexual orientation.

From the book: One of the Children: Gay Black Men in Harlem During the socialization of many gay black men, one major influence is that of the love relationships of their parents. Most gay men are raised in heterosexual two-parents households and, whether or not their parents are in fact exclusively heterosexual, their children perceive them as such. Furthermore, since heterosexuality is the dominant image portrayed in public, gay men thend to be socialized according to heterosexual norms. If a gay man is attracted to other men as a child, consciously or not, his earliest model for interacting with men, emotionally, socially, and sexually, may be female. From watching and interacting with his mother, sisters, grandmother, aunts, female cousins and female friends, the gay black male may be less inclined than a non-gay male to reject feminine traits. This is the case of several of my informants.

Ghmmmmmm

Dating.

😱😱😱😱

Straight

He DEFINITELY has a GAY accent but I think he's GAY too.

A gay accent doesn’t make one gay