- I really could not care less.
- Hey, at least they're not getting their fucking hair in your drink.
- Why would it be "inappropriate?" It's her body. She can dress as she wants.
- What R1 said.
If a person cares enough that they take their business elsewhere, then she isn't the one with the problem.
If anything, I'd say it's more sanitary if they're handling food/drinks.
- I agree with R1 and R2 made me laugh.
- Some people have been fired for wearing the Hijab.
A Peninsula college student is suing Abercrombie & Fitch, claiming her civil rights were violated when she was fired for refusing to remove her headscarf.
Twenty-year-old Hani Kari says her firing from the Hollister outlet store in Hillsdale was because of religious discrimination. The college student says she's been wearing the headscarf, known as a hijab, since kindergarten.
At the Hollister store where Kari worked, the store manager had no problem when Kari was hired for a stockroom job, but four months later, a district manager and the store's human resources department did.
Kahn was fired over the phone when she refused to remove her headscarf.
Kahn said the store manager told her she could wear her hijab as long as it was in keeping with the store's color scheme: Navy blue, gray or white. But human resources said employees are not allowed to wear any head coverings at all.
In a statement released by Abercrombie & Fitch, the company said they are "committed to providing equal employment opportunities to all individuals regardless of race or ethnicity. We comply with the law regarding reasonable religious accommodations."
- It's the fucking service industry. Frankly, I'd prefer it.
- A 22-year-old Muslim woman claims she was fired this week from her job at a Trade Secrets salon because she wears a hijab.
Mehwish Ali, an esthetician from Markham, says one of the Pickering store’s co-owners, Mylene Facchini, saw her wearing her headscarf for the first time last Saturday. Two days later, Ali maintains, Facchini told her the scarf was inappropriate because it covered her hair, which the company was in the business of promoting. On Tuesday, she received an email dismissing her from her job.
- [quote]In a statement released by Abercrombie & Fitch, the company said they are "committed to providing equal employment opportunities to all individuals regardless of race or ethnicity. We comply with the law regarding reasonable religious accommodations."
Is a "statement" ever not complete bullshit? Actions speak louder than words. She was working in the stockroom and they still wanted her to take it off.
- It's just a fucking accessory!
- I have to admit that I do an internal eye-roll every time I see a woman wearing one. The entire Islamic world needs to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century, for the sake of the rest of us as much as for theirs.
- I don't, r11. If I don't expect to do an "internal eye-roll" and object at someone having facial piercings, a stupid haircut or idiot-looking clothes then why should I object to a young woman wearing a hijab? Especially when they tend to be the ones who provide the best service. In London you see girls wearing them in clothes stores and it just adds to the diversity of the place (the Japanese kid, the skinny blond boy, the girl with the big hair).
The case in r8's post makes no sense. If they objected to her wearing a hijab then why did they hire her in the first place?
- So do I, r11. Many of them are living in the 21st century in other respects though. So I remain conflicted on the hijab. I guess I have to go with, they have a right to wear it, even if it irks me to see it.
- Oh I do an internal eye roll at piercings, tattoos, blue hair, goth outfits, etc., too, r13.
- It doesn't bother me and, as R2 points out, if they are around food it seems more hygienic. I do thinks it's old fashioned but it's not any different than the pentecostals with their hair piled in an outdated beehive because they can't cut it or the Amish.
- R15, I have the same reaction when I see Pentecostal women with the hair and the long skirts & long sleeves (which I actually don't see much anymore) as I do with the Muslim women wearing head scarves. They just need to get over it.
- This hatefulness against observant Muslims is revolting. Would anyone put up with questions asking if it's ok for a Jewish man to wear a yarmulke while working? Of course not. Nor should they.
Just stop it already. Or why not go all out and put on a brown shirt and become a Nazi?
- I live in a mid-sized town in Louisiana that has a large population of both Pentecostals and Muslims and their dressing customs don't bother me at all. In fact, it's interesting to see how much fashion sense some of them have despite the restrictions on their dress. Some of the Pentecostal chicks have a real rocker girl thing going on even in long skirts, and some of the Muslim women's scarves are Hermes, their makeup perfectly applied.
Live and let live, vive la différence, all that.
- I'd much rathe see a woman in a Hijab than wearing a top with her tits hanging out and a bunch of nasty nail polish on her hands.
- Any issues about its impact on the woman in question are for her to come to an answer about as it is her body and clothing.
As for the rest, if she possesses the skills to do the job and was deemed fit for employment based on those skills, it ought not matter a toss.
- If your precious "observant Muslims" weren't so devoutly homophobic, R17, I'd have some respect for them.
They are. I don't.
- Re: A&F, I remember one of the tv newsmagazines (20/20? Primetime?) doing a story a few years ago about some Abercrombie store that was blatantly discriminating against minorities (African Americans and Latinos) by not hiring them for any jobs and throwing out any minority applications, including ones for working in the back rooms. They claimed it was because they wanted to represent a certain "look" and they, like Hooters, had a right to demand their employees look a certain way/color. I can't remember what became of the lawsuit.
Btw a hijab is not a sign that they're not living in the 21st century. It's really nothing more than the Muslim version of a nun's habit, except it only covers the head. Nuns don't wear habits because they're old fashioned, they wear them because they're a way to express their modesty (no, I don't wear one). It's the same reason Muslim women won't wear short shorts or whatever else they find too exposing, like those stupid pants where you can see half a person's ass as they walk.
- :::Do you feel it is inappropriate for a saleswoman, waitress or barista to wear the Hijab. Or are you fine with it?
Take Poll: Is it inappropriate for Muslim women to wear the Hijab in the service industry? Yes? No?:::
Worded like a loaded Karl Rove push poll, OP. No, I'm fine with it.
- It's not a Muslim version of a nun's habit. Nuns joined a religious order. These are ordinary women who are bullied or brainwashed into wearing it by bully husbands/culture. It represents the oppression of women. Period.
- Many Muslim women don't wear hijabs so leave the ones who do alone.
- The wildest thing I've seen is a guy dragging some woman with a full burka (with the tiny screen peephole) into a Barnes and Noble book store. The sight was unexpected and so absurd I busted out laughing. I roared with laughter for blocks.
Imagine what they look like walking around when viewing them from the roof of a tall building. Gets me every time.
- [quote]These are ordinary women who are bullied or brainwashed into wearing it by bully husbands/culture. It represents the oppression of women. Period.
I get where you are coming from, but there are plenty of women who don't have outward signs of oppression who are nonetheless oppressed as well. Any Christian whose community insists that birth control is evil, for example.
Even if you don't agree with their customs, you should respect the person and respect their traditions. Stripping them of something as simple (to non-believers) as a headscarf is to them, something far more violent.
This country is supposed to be founded on the principles of inclusion and tolerance.
- I didn't mean it quite that literally, r24; I only meant to make the comparison that both hijabs and habits are worn to express modesty.
- I don't support inequality and I am not fooled by some who like to call inequality a "tradition." A lot of prejudice and oppression (in a lot of cultures and countries) is a "tradition."
- [quote]It's the same reason Muslim women won't wear short shorts or whatever else they find too exposing, like those stupid pants where you can see half a person's ass as they walk.
You are really equating the covering of a woman's HAIR with refraining from wearing ass-exposing bottoms? Really?
Various patriarchal cultures throughout history have forced women - particularly unmarried women - to cover their hair. It has nothing to do with the women's personal modesty and everything to do with the idea that a woman with uncovered hair is a temptation to men, and because men cannot be expected to control themselves, women have to do it for them. This 'logic' goes back a long way - Calvinist women in the 17th century covered their hair, as did ancient Hebrew women, as did women in medieval times (like nuns). It was all about men., not about the women themselves. And it still is.
- I have no problem with it. It's a person right to choose to believe in stupid religions if they want. So long as they're not hurting anybody, I don't care. A man or woman in religious garb won't bother me, even though I disagree with their views.
- My sister's oncologist wears a hijab; it does not necessarily indicate that a Muslim woman is unequal to the men in her community in terms of her educational and professional opportunities and attainment. It doesn't always mean that a man told her she had to wear it, either. In the oncologist's case (for some reason, she and my sister had a lengthy chat about this subject), her family and religious community raised girls to view the hijab as optional: you should only begin to wear one when and if you felt spiritually moved to do so. She didn't start wearing hers until she was around 50, and only then, from the sounds of it, because her young adult daughter had chosen to start wearing one and she felt like Naughty Heathen Mom or something.
- Quebec teen fired as soccer ref for wearing hijab
A Canadian-born teenager is fighting for her right to referee soccer matches while wearing a hijab after she was fired for refusing to remove the Islamic head covering.
Sarah Benkirane says she can't understand why she had been allowed to wear her hijab for the past two years and was only confronted last week. She was fired after someone filed a complaint with the Lac St. Louis Regional Soccer Association in west-end Montreal.
"I don't know why they took my job away now and not before," Benkirane told QMI Agency.
The soccer association says it's only following FIFA rules that say hijabs are a choking hazard.
"We're applying the FIFA rules," said managing director Edouard Saint-Lo. "Anything that is not a soccer uniform is prohibited. The referees have the right to have a watch or a timer. Jewelry, hijabs or any other symbol with religious connotations has no place in soccer."
Saint-Lo says he was only told about Benkirane's hijab last week and acted accordingly.
"I am an administrator, I am not on the field, I could not have known (earlier)," he said.
Benkirane plans to fight the ruling, saying the FIFA rule upon which it's based is unfair.
"I am not a danger to the players," said the girl. "My veil is stuck under my sweater, and I never come into contact with them."
She said her Moroccan-born father was initially worried when, as a 12-year-old, she told him that she would begin wearing the hijab.
"It was my decision," she said. "My mother is Canadian and does not wear the veil. My parents were concerned when I chose to wear the hijab, they were afraid that I would have difficulty finding work."
She said that she participates in curling and track and field and has had no problems in either sport.
"I'm not hurting anyone," said Benkirane. "I practice my religion and I do it with my face uncovered."
The Quebec Soccer Federation held a news conference Monday to support the local soccer group's decision to fire the girl.
"FIFA rules are clear in this matter and we cannot make an exception," said federation president Dino Madonis.
"Why would we allow the hijab to be worn when it's prohibited at the World Cup and at all international competitions?"
FIFA's refusal to change the hijab rule has had an impact internationally.
The Iranian women's soccer team has been barred from Olympic qualifiers because players refused to remove their hijabs.
- N.J Woman Fired for Wearing Hijab
The Justice Department filed a lawsuit today accusing Essex County officials of illegally firing a Muslim corrections officer for refusing to remove her head scarf.
The suit, filed in federal court in Newark on behalf of Yvette Beshier, asks for a court order forcing the county to accommodate religious observances as part of its uniform code for corrections officers.
"Employees should not have to choose between their religious beliefs and their economic livelihood," said Loretta King, acting assistant attorney general for the civil rights division.
The suit accuses Essex County of violating the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits discriminating against employees based on race, color, sex, national origin and religion. The religious discrimination provisions require employers to reasonably accommodate workers' religious observances and practices.
The Essex County Department of Corrections initially suspended Beshier for wearing her head scarf, or khimar, according to the suit. She asked officials to make an exception to the uniform policy, saying her religion required her to wear it, according to the suit.
But the county refused, and eventually Beshier was fired, according to the suit. The lawsuit does not specify when Beshier was hired or fired.
"Federal law requires all employers, even those having policies regarding the wearing of uniforms, to reasonably accommodate the religious observances and practices of their employees," King said.
In February, the Justice Department settled a lawsuit accusing Washington, D.C.'s, transit agency of discriminating against a woman who refused to wear pants, citing her Apostolic Pentecostal faith.
In 2000, New Jersey's Department of Corrections agreed to relax its no-beard policy after 33 Sunni Muslim corrections officers filed suit.
- I accidentally voted 'yes', cause I didn't take the time to read the question properly.
Sorry for skewing your poll, OP.
- Can they work at Hooter's and wear one?
- I don't personally have a problem with it, but you need to comply with the company's dress code if they have one. If doing your job requires differentiating from your religious beliefs and you do not want to, then you should find a different job.
Same thing as Christians refusing to hand out same-sex marriage licenses. Find a job that complies with your beliefs.
- [quote]They just need to get over it.
Why? Sez who? It's their business & none of yours.
- [italic]I have to admit that I do an internal eye-roll every time I see a woman wearing one. The entire Islamic world needs to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century, for the sake of the rest of us as much as for theirs.[/italic]
She chose to wear it. People take their religion very seriously. Look at the frigging Catholic Church, or the Mormons. What about Hasidic Jews?
OP is a shit stirring troll. We all know it.
- [italic]It's not a Muslim version of a nun's habit. Nuns joined a religious order. These are ordinary women who are bullied or brainwashed into wearing it by bully husbands/culture. It represents the oppression of women. Period.[/italic]
You're full of shit. Take it over to Free Republic, Freeperina.
- inequality is everyone's business - they want to oppress women and kill gays
- [quote]People take their religion very seriously. Look at the frigging Catholic Church, or the Mormons. What about Hasidic Jews?
The Amish will fucking cut you.
- if their faces are covered, YES. if their bodies are covered, NO.
- [italic]inequality is everyone's business - they want to oppress women and kill gays[/italic]
American Muslims wish to oppress women and kill gays?
Yeah, okay. Save this tidbit for your next Tea Bagger Rally!
- I let my money do my talking for me. I don't waste an iota of energy on anything that causes me discomfort.
- My Italian grandmother was the first generation of her family born in this country. She would tell stories about all the mamadelles sitting on the front porch disapproving of anything she or her sisters did that wasn't about getting married and raising children. How many generations will these Arab men have to be in this country before they "allow" their women to join the rest of us in the 21st Century?
- [quote]How many generations will these Arab men have to be in this country before they "allow" their women to join the rest of us in the 21st Century?
Significantly fewer than if they didn't live here, I predict.
- I accidentally voted no.
I hate anything that has to do with religious control and traditions: yarmulkes, hijabs, wigs, hairnets, undergarments, habits, robes, turbans, swords--anything. It's ridiculous and anyone who wears that stuff is a brainwashed, indoctrinated sheep.
- Holy shit, R26. Where do you live?
- "I hate anything that has to do with religious control and traditions: yarmulkes, hijabs, wigs, hairnets, undergarments, habits, robes, turbans, swords--anything. It's ridiculous and anyone who wears that stuff is a brainwashed, indoctrinated sheep."
Shut up, asshole. It's their lives, their beliefs. You sound like the most narrow-minded, bigoted creep imaginable. Fuck you!
- totally doesn't bother me. Most of the women wearing them are lovely and very well put together. They're not slobs with fucking muffin tops hanging out over their too-tight/too low-cut jeans.
- I think very little tolerance should be given the Muslim community as long as they are killing us, walking into community squares wearing bombs strapped to their bodies, and flying planes into our buildings. When they stop all that, I'll think it's ok for them to dress however they want.
- No, you shut up asshole. I'm entitled to an opinion just like you. I'm open to most things, but not religion and its trappings.
- The first time I saw a woman in a hajib working at a store, I went through checkout feeling inexplicably guilty.
Then I realized it was because she reminded me of a nun
- Anytime I set foot in a shop south of 57th Street I wish more of the help veiled themselves heavily.
These sunglasses can only block out so much ugly.
- I'm with you r48/r53 though I wouldn't say I hate it as much as it makes me kind of sad that so many in this world waste their limited time alive on following these rigid nonsensical belief systems.
- As always, shop at Nasty Pig for all of the latest Hijab fashions!
- Americans are afraid of Islam and believe all followers are terrorists. Sadly I don't think this will change anytime soon.
- [quote}totally doesn't bother me. Most of the women wearing them are lovely and very well put together. They're not slobs with fucking muffin tops hanging out over their too-tight/too low-cut jeans.
You have a point. I'd rather see a well-dressed girl wearing a hijab than a fat trashy chick in a too short shirt with tight jeans and her belly hanging out.
- I couldn't care as long as the hijab is clean.
- "I think very little tolerance should be given the Muslim community as long as they are killing us"
Does this happen a lot where you live?
- In a fashion sense I can really appreciate burkas, saris, turbans, etc. They are often quite beautiful. And it must be kind of wild to be out in public in one of those total coverage get-ups - sort of like being invisible. But why so often does the man in a couple attire himself in western, even hip-hop garb while his spouse must retain tradition?
A 40-ish woman where I work has recently started wearing a head-scarf. It really makes me wonder if she's a homophobic hater.
[quote]Calvinist women in the 17th century covered their hair, as did ancient Hebrew women...
Some contemporary jewish women do as well, whether with fabric or a wig (over a shaven scalp(?).
- I get my hair done at a Muslim beauty salon. I took their word for it that they all had great hairdos. Anyway, I got a terrible cut and have had to wear a scarf over my head until it grows out.
- That's how they recruit, r63.
- As someone mention up thread as long as the face isn't covered I'm fine with it. If I can see someone's face expressions I get very uneasy.
- A lot of people have that problem. I wore a facemask when I went to the bank and was surprised by the reactions I got.
- [quote]These are ordinary women who are bullied or brainwashed into wearing it by bully husbands/culture. It represents the oppression of women. Period.
This also explains ridiculously high heels and eating disorders.
- I wonder how many of these places have fired workers for wearing crosses around their necks. Something tells me they would choose not to notice such religious symbols.
- If its just a head covering its no worse than a yarmaluke or a cross on a chain. I'm not religious but I'm not opposed to those who are.
But when I see American women swathed head-to-toe in a chador with just their eyes showing through a little slit like we're in Tehran, I do think "WTF...?" Creepy and weird.
- Link, please, to any news story about American Muslims killing gays.
- I drive by a girl every morning, I think she's a school student, and she wears a headscarf, always matched to whatever she is wearing. I actually look forward to seeing the pretty outfits she puts together. Kinda brightens my day.
- It would look out of place on a stripper.
I saw this in Berkeley, CA. Within the last six years or so, we've been seeing more Muslems in the East Bay. Most with the hijab but some with full burkas. The burkas make quite a contrast to the California craftsman bungalows and flowers gardens when they walk down residential streets, especially on a beautiful, warm sunny day when everyone around is wearing shorts and t-shirts. It's a strange sight, to me anyhow. They always have a man walking with them and he hangs onto their elbow and guides them as to where they should walk. The full burka women actually walk ackwardly and with an uncertain tread (for some reason was surprised to notice this). The man or men with them seem to act as seeing eye dogs, especially going over curbs and along broken portions of sidewalks. No offense to anyone, but they're really like seeing a black cloud on what's otherwise beautiful sunny day.
The bookstore incident made me see the black humor in the situation. If women want to walk around like that it's their business but it looks beyond absurd, like someone is playing a joke on someone who's too stupid to know they're the punchline.
- Not long after 9/11, airhead Houston news anchor put on a hijab and went around town "undercover" to stores and restaurants to do a story on hostility and discrimination.
There were absolutely no incidents, but I guess the station didn't have anything other stories to fill that time, so it aired anyway.
- I'm against a full burka as it impedes vision and they really do need someone to lead them but hijabs are no big deal to me.
- [quote]It would look out of place on a stripper.
Not if she was performing the Dance of the Seven Veils.
- The hijab really doesn't bother me at all. Being a Libertarian, I say everyone in the US has the right to dress, on their own time, however they want to dress.
That said, I will admit that I get creeped out by women who do the whole thing with the head-to-toe coverage with only their heavily veiled eyes semi-exposed*. In my opinion, that just conveys the message that not only are men incapable of controlling themselves, they shouldn't be expected to. It only gives validation to the conviction that any trespass or assault a man might make upon an unescorted woman is to be judged as being entirely her fault for flaunting herself as such a tempting target. You hear this logic even in our "enlightened society" every time someone says about a rape victim, "Well, she shouldn't have been alone in that area dressed [italic]that way[/italic]." "That way" being just about any kind of clothing. In other words, she was [italic]asking for it.[/italic] That attitude is just plain WRONG and should not be tolerated in a free society.
*Whenever I see a woman around here (NYC) dressed in full coverage as proscribed by strict Sharia law, it never fails she is being escorted by her husband who is wearing clothing that is not much, if at all, different from what most other men are wearing around here.
- As long as they keep their eyes down and don't try to address me directly, I'm fine with it. I'll tell her what I want and she doesn't need to talk to me to follow my orders.
- I wouldn't want to be waited on, or had a service performed by someone I couldn't see.
If they are that religious, that they don the garb, it's probably against their religion to serve me and my husband.
The whole premise of the hijab is insulting. It's because YOU, ME and everybody else can't be trusted to not lust.
I will also turn right around and leave if I see a Jesus cross on the store wall, or a God Bless America sign near the cashier. I'm pretty sure they don't want my gay business, you read all the time how those who promote religion in their work refuse to provide us a service, lodging, etc.
- It's a sercurity risk. They could easily hide bombs, guns, knives and other dangerous weapons underneath. Muslim adherents have a long history of violence too. I do not feel safe around hijab-wearing Muslim women.
Muslim adherents will sue left and right until they can wear their attire anywhere making it uncomfortable for others thus pushing non-Muslims out of an area.
- R80, do you often feel that saleswomen, waitresses or baristas are hiding bombs, guns, knives and other dangerous weapons?
Just learn to tip once in a while. And it's 20%.
- It's 20% for exceptional service.
- Can they serve pork?
- More power to them. I want a multi-cultural society.
- Can they serve alcohol? If not, there is a slim to none chance I'd even be at their restaurant!
- Amen R85.
- I'm prejudiced where Muslims are concerned, quite prejudiced actually. I would avoid an employee wearing one.
- [quote]Some contemporary jewish women do as well, whether with fabric or a wig (over a shaven scalp(?).
Yes, Hasidic women do this, and again, it's not about 'modesty'. It's about the fact that ultra-Orthodox Jews believe that only a woman's husband should be allowed to see her (true) hair. Some husbands allow their wives to keep their own hair and cover it with a scarf, and others require that their wives shave their heads and wear wigs instead. Either way, it's done to the husband's specifications. The wife's wishes are not a factor.
- [quote]It doesn't always mean that a man told her she had to wear it, either.
Yes it does. It may not directly be the father or the husband or the brother but, if you go back, it all started with Mohammad's edicts as interpreted by men.
- Don't mind hijab. Do mind niqab -- the tiny peephole.
If you can see my face I'd better see yours.
- Fuck the hijab; what's wrong with this country is exemplified by r37.
- It's OK only if she looks fabulous
Because I'm shallow, superficial and incredibly affected
- Don't give an inch to religion. Box it in at every turn.
- There is something disingenuous about a woman claiming modesty in wearing the hijab yet willing to work at Abercrombie. If you are that pious you wouldn't work at a place that is famous for nudity in its advertising. Too many of these complaints are attempts at making money with a lawsuit.
- [quote]Shut up, asshole. It's their lives, their beliefs. You sound like the most narrow-minded, bigoted creep imaginable. Fuck you!
What the fuck are you doing on a gay site?
I didn't think DL would be the choice for religious sheep, seeing as orthodox religions and religious fanatics are universally anti-gay.
- "No, you shut up asshole. I'm entitled to an opinion just like you. I'm open to most things, but not religion and its trappings."
If a person's religious dress offends you then you have some serious anger management problems.
You label anyone who wears a yalmulke or turban, or habit, etc. as "brainwashed, indoctrinated sheep." Just like homophobes label all gays as depraved child-molesting sex maniacs who prey on children in order to indoctrinate them into the homosexual lifestyle. You're just like them. JUST like them.
- Discriminating against someone for how they pray or what they wear is pathetic. It's a lot like discriminating against someone for who they have sex with. These are all just private issues and we are all entitled to our own beliefs and feelings.
- I feel sorry for them because it's rooted in sexism. But, other than that, I don't care.
- You're embarrassing, R80.
Did you hide your brain under your gunt?
- I just wouldn't hire someone who came in to an interview wearing one of those, the same way I wouldn't hire someone who claims it's their "religion" to wear a tube top.
- R80 if that's your opinion than you must be frightened of anyone holding a purse or a briefcase or anyone wearing a large jacket. Anyone of us who wanted to hide a gun, a knife, a bomb, etc. could easily do it in a fashionable way. STUPID!
- I hope to god R80 is a parody.
She sounds like the type who would monitor any brown-skinned people on a plane for "suspicious activity", like using the bathroom or speaking in their native tongue.
- Plus, you just know that the hijab is where they're all hiding their pilot licenses.
- Some Muslim women wear hijabs. Other than it being part of religion, as opposed to social convention, is there anything to differentiate it from women generally wearing high heels. Both are certainly examples of the social control of women's bodies. In one case, call it religion. In another call it secular custom. It boils down to the same sheepish brainwashing.
That's all beside the point, which is to discriminate against a service industry worker because he or she wears a hijabs or yarmulke, or ash on a forehead on Palm Sunday, is oppressive and revolting.
- You know why people like R100 or R80 make me laugh? They're such idiots that they think a Muslim planning to blow something up would "dress the part." Wouldn't they be more likely to draw the attention of dumbasses like you two?
Put me on a plane with a woman wearing the whole thing and as long as she's not carrying a screaming toddler, I'm fine.
- R104= WAY too sensible and logical to be on Datalounge. :)
I completely agree.
- [quote]Discriminating against someone for how they pray or what they wear is pathetic. It's a lot like discriminating against someone for who they have sex with. These are all just private issues and we are all entitled to our own beliefs and feelings.
We are all entitled to our own beliefs, but we are not entitled to have everybody respect them. You can believe in a giant play-doh deity in the next solar system, I don't have to respect you for that, and am free to discriminate against you [italic]on a personal level[/italic], because I think you are stupid.
- Bravo, R107.
And I would add: your right to your own religious beliefs end where my RIGHT TO EXIST as a gay man or lesbian begins.
- I agree with R107. We don't choose our race, we don't choose our sexual orientation, we don't choose our gender. We DO choose our religious beliefs, however, and they should be open to ridicule and discrimination.
On the other hand, R104 has a valid point: the hijab is not just a religious symbol, it's a cultural convention. However, in the United States I don't think it's unreasonable for a woman in an American service industry to give up the hijab just as American women traveling in Muslim countries are expected to dress more modestly and cover their heads.
- Thank you, r109, well said.
- [quote]I feel sorry for them because it's rooted in sexism. But, other than that, I don't care.
- R109, the hijab isn't a fashion accessory. It's not like telling employees not to wear dangly earrings at work, or black nail polish. They're wearing it because they think it makes God happy. Saying, "I don't think it's unreasonable for a woman in an American service industry to give up the hijab just as American women traveling in Muslim countries are expected to dress more modestly and cover their heads," misses the point.
If I go to Saudi Arabia and have to wear some big outfit, it may be offensive to my personal sensibilities, but that's different from telling me to do something I think is going to make God mad at me, or be disappointed in me. That's how big a deal it is to them. It's not like you're telling them to take off a hat, or put on a long dress. You're telling them the fashion sense of some total stranger should be more important than making God mad. The vast majority of the Muslim religion involves physically doing things, like prayer or eating certain foods or wearing certain clothes, to prove you respect God. It's a very physically expressed religion, more like a lifestyle than the all-in-your-head philosphical religions of the West. That's probably why it's so hard for them to modernize, because the religion itself largely consists of physical acts.
How would you feel about somebody telling gay people to stop their "lifestyle" and start acting and dressing more like a straight person, because any sign of a gay "lifestyle" is offensive to them? A hijab is really a dogwhistle sign of a Muslim "lifestyle."
- Celebrities & politicians wearing the hijab
- The lesson from this is God is totally and permanently pissed off. At you. Yes, YOU! It's all your fault. You damn well better be prepared to do anything and everything to survive his All encompassing rage. He hates your naked guts. Especially women who don't have man god parts. He hates you so much, he can't even bear to look at you! Crawl on the ground you garbage, you utterly horrible piss, blood and shits. Bleed! Suffer! Better yet, bleed and suffer at the same time!
- R114, this is what happens when you try to withdraw from Xanax without medical supervision.
- [quote]Link, please, to any news story about American Muslims killing gays.
Who gives a fuck if it's in the US or not. Do you think it's okay for gays to be murdered as long as it's not in your country? Idiot.
- Muslim-loving gays would gladly have videos of their heads sawed off on You Tube to prove their superior tolerance.
- R112...Hon, you do realize that if you go to Saudi Arabia, you'll be given a long prison sentence with hard labor?
- The thread is about American Muslims, not Muslims in Saudi Arabia. I've dealt with a couple of hijab wearing clerks at the local supermarket. They are bright, smiling, cheerful women that don't look like they'd cut anybody's head off.
I used to work with an Egytian woman. She said when she went back to Egypt, they had to wear some kind of modest coat or covering outside, then they went in the house, the coat came off, and they were all wearing tight jeans, high heels and makeup by the ton. Sounded like they brought a change of clothes to parties. In the US she didn't wear a hijab or anything but regular American clothes. I didn't even know she was Muslim until we became friends and she told me.
Not all Muslims are ax-murderers. A lot of the ones in the U.S. are fairly loose about following all the rules. Not all Christians are like the Duggars, either.
- [quote]We DO choose our religious beliefs, however, and they should be open to ridicule and discrimination.
In many households, your religious beliefs are chosen for you and then perhaps you decide whether to continue them after you've reached adulthood.
Most religious kooks indoctrinate their children before their kids have the mental capacity to understand what's happening to them.
- For me it's like a sign on their forehead:
YES, I'M A MORON!
It's also grossly insulting to men as the message it sends is: I'm wearing this because I'm treating you like a medieval desert arab and don't trust you to act responsibly in front of me.
So the idea of it been worn by a woman in a serving or hostess capacity is risible.
- I don't have a problem with the women who wear it, but that doesn't mean I don't feel sorry for them. It must feel like a trap to them - they are taught that they are responsible for men's behavior, so even in societies where they have a choice, they still feel compelled to wear it.
- I had a female student wearing a hijab in the university course I was teaching this semester. personally, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. The only time when I felt it was an issue was during the final exam since the invigilators were supposed to verify students' ID cards.
- When I was a kid I enjoyed it because I felt like I was in the Star Wars cantina.
- Doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I have never bothered to think about until you mentioned it, OP. It's their thing. I got mine, they got theirs.
- I'll never be ready for that shit here in the U.S.
- Women can wear whatever the fuck they want, and it's none of your business. Some of the people in this thread need to join the 21st century, but I don't think women wearing hijab need to. If you have a problem with it, it's your own fucking problem, not theirs.
- R127 is either a Muslim male or completely ignorant of Islam and the way women are treated within it.
- Yeah, R27, the 21st century is all about enabling retards from the 8th century to revel in their backwardness.
- As usual, men trying to control what women wear. Your views on how women should act and present themselves to the male gaze are offensive and misogynist.
If I choose to wear the hijab, the burka, a headscarf, a v-necked top, stockings or jeans it's a matter for me, not you.
- R130 Please. Employers won't hire men with baggy pants or muscle shirts on. It's about what's appropriate.
Having women wear a hijab in non-Muslim countries is seen as a victory to Muslims because they are getting their way, they are not forced to wear other clothes. When non-Muslim women travel through Muslim countries they are forced to wear veils or other coverings, they are forced to conform to Muslim standards. Look at Barbara Walters and Diane Sawyer when they are in the Middle East.
- Fine, R130. Realize that if you "choose" to be encased in a tent when you walk about in the civilized world you are going to creep the rest of us out.
- Holy crap some people on this thread must have been dropped on their heads quite hard.
If a woman serves you a cup of coffee wearing a head scarf it doesn't affect you one single bit. Did nobody grow up knowing any muslims? I had at least a couple of girls with hijabs in my class in different school since junior high or whatever you call it (I'm from Scandinavia) and some of these girls have more balls than most of you who complain about them. I'm not muslim and neither is anyone in my family except my dad but I am Arab so I get this shit all the time, Islamophobia isn't exclusively targeted at muslims but rather at anyone who looks Middle Eastern.
My sisters don't wear hijabs and nobody has forced them to but then again they aren't muslim so why should they. My mom, me and my siblings are athiest and have always somehow managed to live under the same roof with one of the most loving, caring men on earth who just happens to be muslim. Crazy, I know. You don't have to be religious, but if you want people to respect you for who you are then you can't cut them off before you even give them a chance.
- [quote]Realize that if you "choose" to be encased in a tent when you walk about in the civilized world you are going to creep the rest of us out.
If your so called civilised world includes judging people simply by what they wear and being creeped out by different cultural conventions I feel sorry for you and whatever country you come from.
For the rest of us accepting difference, individual choice and the freedom not to be controlled by the male gaze if we so choose is far more civilised.
I'm not religious, I wasn't born within a cultural group which chooses to dress differently or within one that discriminates against those who do. I support the rights of all adult men and women to make their own choices about dress, sexuality, politics and religion. You obviously come from a far more bigoted cultural group.
- I understand that the gay community feels resentment towards organized religion because we feel like they want to limit our rights, but seriously... If they don't like gay marriage I say then don't get one, stay out of it and don't vote against my rights. But if a woman wants to wear a headscarf I should stay out it and not fight against her rights to be who she is either. You can't assume that every single muslim is homophobic and a terrorist, that's fucking insane. I don't assume that every jewish person supports the state of Israel or that every American is stupid.
People seem to forget that while Islam often times seems like a religion that opresses women, which often times it really does, Islam is the actual faith of these women too. So because you assume the woman in a hijab is opressed by a terrorist, homophobic religion, she should give up her faith and the way she practises it even though it doesn't affect your life? Just like a homophobe sees you and your boyfriend sitting a little too close for his liking at the bar wants to limit your rights to marry and have a normal life even though the way you live your life doesn't actually affect him?
- R133, your English is amazingly good for someone who claims to be Scandinavian. And your defense of your Muslim heritage is admirable.
I think you could persuade me to do things I never contemplated before.
- r136 Thanks! Lots of my Swedish peers' English is very good. I can come across a little strong talking about these things but I'm so fed up with all the bullshit. It's difficult finding a place in the world when you're Arab and gay but I'm just trying to bridge the gap as much as I can.
- [quote]some of these girls have more balls than most of you who complain about them
I can only assume a lot of the men here only watch the right wing press and don't look outside their own country for the news. Hijab wearing women have been the mainstay of the 'Arab Spring' revolutions. All over Europe highly educated women are at the forefront of protest movements and yes, some of them wear hijabs. But maybe you don't see them because, oh, they don't fit your narrow idea of what is acceptable and they're not dressing the way women 'should' dress. Or do you just not notice because they are women.
- R41:inequality is everyone's business - they want to oppress women and kill gays
R44:Yeah, okay. Save this tidbit for your next Tea Bagger Rally!
Do you really think the Tea Party cares about the oppression of women and gay rights? Are you crazy, or stupid?
The people that are wearing the burquas have contempt for the West, and that includes rights for gays and women.
Even people from the Middle Eastern countries know that these people are extremists.
- Close, r128, but try agnostic female who has spent time living in predominantly Muslim countries and has many Muslim friends in the US and abroad, some who wear hijab and some who don't, and each who has personal reasons for that decision. It seems to me that people who hold the view that wearing hijab automatically equals oppression and backwards thinking must not know many actual Muslims.
Is there a place for a discussion about the role of women inside Islam and the oppression of women living in Muslim societies? Sure, but if we are really interested in empowerment, we should be listening to what actual Muslim women have to say about it and should let them make their own decisions with regards to how they want to dress and what that means to them. It doesn't help the cause of feminism for some paternalistic outsiders to go around telling Muslim women they are oppressed and need to dress the way they tell them to instead.
- [quote]I had at least a couple of girls with hijabs in my class in different school since junior high or whatever you call it (I'm from Scandinavia) and some of these girls have more balls than most of you who complain about them.
If they had the balls you claim and the brains to go with them, they'd have figured out by now that wearing a head scarf due to the outdated dictates of an ancient religion that's been used for centuries to enshrine the belief that males are better than females in every way.
In the majority of the Muslim nations on this planet, they'd like nothing better than to be able to keep headless female bodies around simply for sexual gratification and procreation. Women are less than nothing in the scheme of things and it's just a shame they can't be rid of them completely. That is the religion you defend.
And, honestly, if your father married a non-Muslim woman and all of his children are atheists, he's not very Muslim even according to the most liberal interpretation of the Koran.
What would happen tomorrow if your loving father suddenly felt the need to convert to a more traditional or radical form of Islam? If you were told to put on the hijab or not be part of the family any longer, would you still defend it? That's the situation of many, if not most, of the Muslim women in the world. And, they aren't threatened simply with banishment from the family, they are threatened with death if they go against the teachings they've been brainwashed with their entire lives.
- People like R48 spend so much time hating everyone for being different and then whine about our lack of diversion.
They're just being Contrary Mary's.
Ignore him and the other shit stirrers on this thread.
- diversity...not diversion.
Sorry...too much pot tonight.
- You know nothing about me R142. I have stated that I don't like anything to do with religion. I feel religion is the root of all of the world's problems and I stand by my initial statement.
I am not a shit stirrer nor did I whine about "our lack of diversity" nor am I a "Contrary Mary."
And please tell me how much time I spend "hating everyone."
go take another bong hit
- My point is, R144, that you are as narrow minded as Michelle Bachman or any other psycho tea-party creep.
You have no sense of what tolerance or acceptance mean. Your need to repeat that you wish not to have "anything to do with religion" is particularly telling. You point out exactly what it is that you will NOT accept from others.
If that's your choice for yourself, that's fine.
But that makes it okay for bigots all around the world to use your same tired excuses (you're enlightened, you're better than everyone else), to get away with intolerance and hatred.
You're a bigot, plain and simple. If you can't accept differences in people than you belong on free republic...not the DL.
- I'm prejudice. The hijab I care lesser about but when I see a woman walking around in a burka, I see someone who is mentally ill. I can't help it. And I have no desire to change my perception nor any desire to attempt to understand their choice. The look says "I'm invisible. Don't look at me.". I feel like I'm suppose to not notice they're there and that there's suppose to be something wrong with me when I notice they're there. And I'm a woman. The message to men is much, much worse.
- r141 Most religions are "ancient" with Islam being the youngest out of the Abrahamic religions.
As I stated, I agree that in many parts of the world women living with this faith are opressed, that's obvious, but that doesn't mean that All muslims are evil. If a woman feels a sense of pride and dignity in wearing a headscarf and expressing her faith (as long as no one is getting hur) then so be it.
You can pretend to be an expert on my family-situation all you want but maybe it's too mind-boggling for you face the idea of "friendly-Arab" so I'm not even going to address that.
All I wish is for people not to direct their anger and disgust towards the woman with a piece of textile on her head. If she's opressed by her husband then it's truly awful, but in many cases she's just expressing her faith and you can't judge a whole character and expect to know her life story just by glancing at her.
It sounds like you've had some difficult experiences with muslims and that's horrible, but that doesn't give you the right to judge a whole culture and religion. I've had difficult experiences with white people judging me on the basis of my name and the way I look but that hasn't lead me to make a collective judgement towards them, my mother and boyfriend are white. Hell, I'm "half white" but you wouldn't know that just by looking at me.
And one last thing, if my dad would suddenly ask me to put on a hijab out of the blue I'd assume he'd lost it since he know's I'm gay, not trans.
- I find the hijab very sexy on some women. I especially like an orangish one that a beautiful local lady wears.
It isn't like they are wearing them in a sawmill where it would represent a danger to themselves or others. Since no one is going to be hurt if the clerk at 7-11 wears one, why on earth would I care?
- What r141 said.
Take that shit off. You're in a western country if you don't like western values go back to the shit hole you came from.
- I hope you're kidding r150.
Integration, not assimilation.
- [quote]Integration, not assimilation.
Yeah, riiight. Muslim's have zero desire for "integration" and a passion for over taking.
- In much of eastern Europe the Christian women always wear scarves over their hair. They come here to the US and usually they drop the scarves in a generation. I wonder if the Moslem women will do likewise?
When Christian women in the US wear scarves, no one says anything to them about it.
- r152 Oh yeah how could I forget, the Muslim agenda is out to take over the world. Just like how me and my gay friends want to make and adopt tons of babies and make them gay so that they can rule and infest everyone's minds. There is no agenda, give me a break.
Don't equate terrorism with a world religion.
- I had the unfortunate honor of doing some work for a Moslem charter school in DC about 12 years ago. Never again. The male teacher was constantly flirting with women and touching them inappropriately. And the girls wore chadors but were the most immoral teenage girls I've ever seen. we used to call them "Whores in Chadors." The hypocrisy was mind-blowing.
That said, I have also met too many fine & wonderful Moslems to think that the charter school experience was common in the Moslem world. And there is enormous diversity of beliefs amongst Moslems. In Indonesia, Moslem women dress more like American women than like Saudi women.
- Male hijab
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=men in head scarves&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7TSND&biw=1105&bih=441&tbm=isch&tbnid=WHkW5TxCQ00wkM:&imgrefurl=http://www.cakitches.com/clothing-accessories/head-scarves-for-men.html&docid=28a
- I don't mind women wearing what they want to wear, as long as it's their choice. I don't like coercion. I grew up Catholic and was used to seeing veils around our house, because before the Second Vatican Council, it was customary for women to wear veils (in Spanish, mantillas) over their heads when attending mass or entering a church.
In many Catholic and Orthodox cathedrals and churches people are expected to wear appropriately modest clothing (no cleavage, bare shoulders or short shorts.) Back a couple of decades they would also require a head-covering of some kind.
It is likely that many Muslim women living in the West will wear scarves and head-coverings as a gesture to Islamic modesty, and many will eschew the practice entirely, or save it for special occasions, or for attending Mosque.
For Americans, the discomfort is simply the fact that we never really encountered people practicing this religion which is dominant in 1/4 of the world's population.
The world is getting smaller, folks, so we need more tolerance, not less. We're not accommodating them, just realizing that they have a right to live the way they want too.
- Do you mean "muslim private school?" There shouldn't be any Muslim Charter schools, since they get public funds. That would be like having a Catholic Charter school. No way would that be allowed.
- [quote]You can pretend to be an expert on my family-situation all you want but maybe it's too mind-boggling for you face the idea of "friendly-Arab" so I'm not even going to address that.
I'm not referring to your father's niceness, I'm referring to the way he chooses to practice his religion. You are holding him up as an example of an average Muslim when you know that's not the case. I'd say, world-wide, ninety percent of Muslim males would see the act of your father marrying a non-Muslim woman and having children who do not follow Islam as an affront to their religion.
[quote]And one last thing, if my dad would suddenly ask me to put on a hijab out of the blue I'd assume he'd lost it since he know's I'm gay, not trans.
Then answer the question as if you were a female or as if you were one of your sisters and they were all of a sudden told by their father to wear a hijab or be banished from the family. And, no, I don't want to hear "Well, they're adults so..." or "Well, I'm not them, so..." as an answer. The problem is that you understand the point I'm trying to make and are avoiding answering the question in order to not prove my point.
Wearing the hijab is not voluntary, under any circumstances. There are only two reasons a woman would cover herself in order to no entice the 'animalistic males who can't help themselves'...one is that they are being forced to by a male who controls them or they have been brainwashed since birth. I guess a third could be that they've lost their minds, which is what I think of any modern woman who voluntarily converts to this, or any, misogynistic religion.
- R158, yes, you are right. It was a Muslim private school, not a charter school. I just googled it to check. Luckily it went out of business 10 years ago. It was a hellish little place. FAR FAR worse than the terrible public schools in the area where it was located.
It opened up when loads of charter schools started opening in DC so I was thinking it was one of them. It was not.
- [quote]'d say, world-wide, ninety percent of Muslim males would see the act of your father marrying a non-Muslim woman and having children who do not follow Islam as an affront to their religion.
You're talking crap. It's clear you've not had much contact with Muslims, let alone the average ones in the UK, Malaysia, or quite frankly anywhere else in the world outside what you get reported in your press.
[quote]Wearing the hijab is not voluntary, under any circumstances.
Again absolute crap. The Arab Spring revolutions have for the most part been led by women who have chosen to wear the hijab, and n most other countries where Islam is practiced wearing it is an individual woman's choice. Of course there are countries that legislate and we should all be helping women to fight that, but for the vast majority of Muslims this is far more a voluntary act than, oh lets say, wearing a turban if you are a Sikh.
Do Sikhs make you fell uncomfortable BTW?
- Women's gains in Arab Spring more mirage than miracle
- Why are they Burning their veils?
- Fixed link
- Arab Spring is over. The army cracked down in Egypt.
- Congratulations on a successful troll, OP.
- R161...um, you're going too far. Women are not free to choose the hijab in many Muslim countries. Let's not pretend. in confronting hysterical anti-Muslim prejudice, people sometimes go way too far in the other direction.
- I just want a woman to be wearing SOMETHING when she comes up to me! Now, a good looking man, that's a different thing.
- r159 I don't really know how to reply because I think it's a weird question.
If I was one of my sisters and my dad would suddenly force me to do something against my will while completely changing his belief-system then we would have some problems because that would be completely out of character for him, I would lose respect and not do it. We're all adults so we don't "have to do" anything.
We can't agree because you refuse to believe that there are women who want and choose to do this to honor their faith, not to please the men around them. Covering up for the wrong reasons isn't good but if it gives you a sense of dignity then so be it.
- anyone else?
- What difference does it make? It's not like it's gonna make your food taste different.
- [quote]Oh I do an internal eye roll at piercings, tattoos, blue hair, goth outfits, etc., too, [R13].
It sounds like you should spend all your time in a plastic bubble. Other people and differences of taste clearly offend your hyperdelicate sensibilities too much for you to live out in the real world.
- I got confused for a minute and thought we were talking about the burqa, so I voted no.
Truth is, it depends on the profession for me.
If we are talking about a check out girl or a barrista, then I don't think it's a problem. If it's my dentist or hairdresser, then yes. If someone is going to get that close to me then I need it to be someone I can trust, on some level, and to trust someone I need to see their whole face.
- This thread is obviously old and R168's brilliance is probably no longer with us, but here goes:
There are around 50 Muslim-majority countries. None but three mandate the hijab: Saudi Arabia, Iran and Afghanistan(?).
R170, no point in discussing anything with someone so arrogant as to claim he knows what hundreds of millions of people think based on nothing but the garbage fed to him by the media and sitting on his ass in front of the computer.
When the media discusses the Middle East or the Muslim world in general, and chooses not to invite actual Arabs or Muslims onto the panels (because what would they know about the Middle East, eh?), assume there's a concerted effort to keep you ignorant.
- You seem to be having some kind of confusion here, r174. Typically, the hijab reveals the whole face--it just covers the hair.
Do you need to see their hair to trust them? Or are you afraid they're hiding secret weapons in there they might pull out while you're in the dentist's chair?
"Die, complacent infidel!"
- Hijab doesn't cover the face, R174:
- I would have a problem with a waitress being Muslim because her religion would prevent her from serving me alcohol. And that's really the only reason.
- I'm from Canada and a muslim cleric in one of our provinces was criticized for saying gays should be put to death. He got himself out of hot water by saying he only meant under shariah law which would only happen in canada when muslims become the majority.
Now when I see increasing numbers of muslims I see it as a step towards a muslim majority at which time we will have to live under shariah law and gays (among others) will face the death penalty.
The hijab itself isn't what is dangerous, its the ideology, religious beliefs and political/legal system it represents. In Islam, there is no division between church and state. The goal of muslims is for the world to be under muslim dominance and live under islamic (shariah) laws which include gays being put to death, men being allowed multiple wives but women put to death for adultery, and people put to death for blasphemy.
- As a gay male I am confused by the head cover.
I know that some Christian women wear a scarf of a head cover of sorts (the Sunday Doily) showing modesty to God.
But I get that wig wearing Hasidim wives and Moslem women wear the head covering to not inflame the sexual desires of men.
So when I see a Moslem woman in full head gear, I take it that she assumes I am inflammable by the sight of her hair.
I am doubly confused when I see a woman in full head gear with perfect makeup, as in r176, which is designed to inflame men's passions.
But because I am a dick at heart, I suppress the urge to tell women in a head covering "bet you have real sexy hair under there."
- I know it doesn't cover the whole face but often it will cover some of the upper forehead, as well as the neck and hair. It just makes me feel like I'm not seeing the whole person and I find it alienating. Obviously I just avoid going to dentists and hairdressers in hijab.
- I honestly don't see what the problem is. It's merely a headscarf. Lots of women wore them outside when I was kid.
- R178? You do realize there are supermarkets owned by Muslims selling alcohol and pork products, right?
When I go to Dunkin Donuts, they're serving sandwiches made with pork products and a couple of the places I've been to have workers wearing hijabs.
If a Muslim had an issue serving alcohol or pork, they wouldn't work there. A lot of them don't care.
- There are around 50 Muslim-majority countries. None but three mandate the hijab: Saudi Arabia, Iran and Afghanistan(?).
"[R170], no point in discussing anything with someone so arrogant as to claim he knows what hundreds of millions of people think based on nothing but the garbage fed to him by the media and sitting on his ass in front of the computer.
When the media discusses the Middle East or the Muslim world in general, and chooses not to invite actual Arabs or Muslims onto the panels (because what would they know about the Middle East, eh?), assume there's a concerted effort to keep you ignorant."
Yet they all or most muslim countries have harsh punishments (including death) for homosexuality, female infedility (yet allow men to have multiple wives) and blasphemy.
- R184, are you really silly enough to believe most of these countries even enforce these laws? Do you really think there are just thousands of prisons full of gays and women all over the Muslim world just waiting to be put to death? Do you also believe the police are just walking around waiting to catch cheating women and gays?
Do they need to be reformed? Hell yes. But give me a break with the hyperbole.
- Yep, keep making excuses and false equivalencies for these nutjobs. It will be super fun when they start demanding all women do this.
- I don't like religidiots of any flavor, so no.
- [quote]Now when I see increasing numbers of muslims I see it as a step towards a muslim majority at which time we will have to live under shariah law and gays (among others) will face the death penalty.
Yep. This is the stated goal. They are open about it. Look at European countries, where they've turned their little enclaves into backwards ghettos.
- R186/R188, pretty obvious what kind of person you are. It's not worth talking to someone who accuses people of "making excuses," then does the essentially the same thing himself, but from the other side.
You're just as ignorant as anyone who excuses all Muslims, but it's cute that you think you're the enlightened one.
- [quote]You do realize there are supermarkets owned by Muslims selling alcohol and pork products, right?
I don't hang out with a lot of supermarket owners, so I don't know the faith they may have.
[quote]When I go to Dunkin Donuts, they're serving sandwiches made with pork products and a couple of the places I've been to have workers wearing hijabs.
One place I wouldn't be caught dead in, however I take it your point is that Muslims can be just like a lot of Christians and that their faith is window-dressing. Just for appearances but not actually wanting to go out of their way for their belief system. That bites because people like that reinforce the oppressive religion without actually subscribing to it. I'm not sure why you would want me to respect that.
Personally, I'm tired of the big push on websites to normalize Muslims and to say hey, they are no different than Christians. I don't really want to respect Christians either. All people of faith are stupid.
- Let's remember there are all sorts of religious groups that use clothes and their hair to express, in a deliberate way, their religion. It isn't just Muslims that walk that path.
Personlly, I find that "in your face" expression of religion bording on offensive. It is almost as bad as those who can't discuss anything unless they work religion into the conversation.
- R185, so you are okay with the death penalty for homosexuality if is not rigorously enforced?
- 1) One can complain about it but there are tons of other traditional religious pieces of attire worn by both men and women. Of various sects.
2) These men and women have the right to earn a living just like anyone else.
But you all know that, don't you?
- It really doesn't bother me. Then again, I'm one of those weirdos who feels things that aren't my business should not bother me.
- [quote] These men and women have the right to earn a living just like anyone else.
Maybe the religidiots should start their own businesses, keeping custom of their own kind then.
- R192, list the countries where there's a death penalty for gays. I know about Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Iran.
What are the rest of them? Indonesia? Syria?
- [quote]Maybe the religidiots should start their own businesses, keeping custom of their own kind then.
- let's continue this conversation
- The muslim religion keep the women in line. I don't agree with their beliefs on sexuality but they are one religion where the men are men.
- [quote]I don't agree with their beliefs on sexuality but they are one religion where the men are men.
Bullshite. Real men are not so insecure that they need to cover their women to keep other 'real' men from looking at them. Real men are secure enough to allow their women to be full citizens. Real men do not need to dominate women to make themselves appear more important.
- If Christians had a similar type of garb, I wouldn't like it either. It shows they are devoutly religious and therefore [italic]most likely[/italic] anti-gay. I wouldn't want a phobe serving me food because I usually eat out with my husband and kids so it's fairly evident we're gay.
- Disagree R200. Again the women are left to take no responsibility. Save it cunt.
- F&F for the bigot who insisted on bumping this bullshit to start another flame war.
- It's their business and none of mine, unless it's a job where it's violating some requirement or could get caught in machinery.
- Shut the fuck up. I have an opinion like everyone else. The people (lesbians) who constantly ff should be dealt with. They need to start keeping track of these trouble makers.
- I see the hijab as a sign for submission and sexism. I hate to admitt it but I hate the Muslim religion as much as I hate Christian fundies. BTW "internal eye Roll" won this thread.
- [quote]BTW "internal eye Roll" won this thread.
"internal eye Roll" is a sanctimonious little wussy.
- This thread makes me very sad. A lot of Muslim women do not wear the hijab and, when they do, it is their own choice to do so. Wearing a hijab doesn't mean a woman is being oppressed; what is oppressive is someone telling them how they should feel regarding their religious beliefs and practices.
In 2008, I was verbally abused due to my religion and race because some ignorant protesters thought I supported Prop 8. I was hurt but I'd have been stupid to blame an entire group because some asshats judged me without knowing me. The same applies here: saying you feel uncomfortable around a woman with a hijab is no different from someone refusing service from someone with piercings or tattoos. You don't have to agree with their choices but respect is due to a fellow human being.
- Not in the service industry.. it's fine. It doesn't really affect anyone if the waitress or whatever is wearing a hijab. But as a police officer etc? Yep.. that I do have a problem with, because police is supposed to be neutral. It would be wrong to let them show off their religion.
- I don't get the big deal with the hijab. At least you cans see their faces. But a burka is definitely too much. I can deal with a hijab but not with a burka. The burka should be banned imo.
- Would it bother you if a KKK member wore their hood as they took your order at Starbucks?
- [quote]Oh I do an internal eye roll at piercings, tattoos, blue hair, goth outfits, etc., too
So you're an intolerant bigot. Not exactly something to brag about.
- R208 is full of pc shit. Hypocritical lesbian i'm sure.
- [quote]Would it bother you if a KKK member wore their hood as they took your order at Starbucks?
This is so unbelievably ignorant it's hard to know how to respond.
It's sad that so many who post here are intolerant and bigoted.
[Or maybe it's just the same 10 dickheads posting on multiple threads).
- R214 sounds about 15. Please ignore him R208. I suggest you don't read any more of this thread. It's a particularly vile Datalounge thread. Not all the posts, but why was it even started in the first place?
Why do people think it's cool to brag about how intolerant they are?
- [quote]This is so unbelievably ignorant it's hard to know how to respond.
You've decided it was ignorant but lack the power or knowledge to say why. It has nothing to do with the idea you are attacking.
- The Hijab is NOT a religious mandate in the Quran and it is never mentioned there, nor does it say anywhere that women need to cover their heads in public. It was a cultural tradition from the Arabian desert that spread as the same time as the religion expanded. It is a sign of woman submission because a woman in full view is supposed to "provoke" lust in men. It is barbaric and should be banned.
- Save it R216. If Christians were wearing that shit you'd be all over it. Where is your tolerence? You are a hypocritical bitch. I do not like religion nor what it stands for. I don't do the pc shit. They all need to be held accountable. Trashing people who don't agree with you won't change that.
- We are talking about a religion that teaches it followers that gays should be put to death! That's not intolerant R215?
- Unless the woman hands you a letter condemning homosexuality after you've paid, you shouldn't have an issue with it.
There are enough Christian loons to keep you busy.
- For many Muslim women it is a choice they make. It isn't because they're oppressed (or no more oppressed than anyone who follows a religion).
The hijab only covers the hair. Banning it would be as ludicrous as banning hats.
It feels like the Datalounge has it's own little coven of neonazis here,
- I do not need to be visually assaulted by their shitty archaic women-hating gay-hating violent religion. Any woman who is religious enough to be wearing a hijab should be religious enough to know that she is forbidden from working anyway.
Fuck all Musselmans. They are a scourge upon the Earth.
- [quote]We are talking about a religion that teaches it followers that gays should be put to death! That's not intolerant?
So your argument is that everyone should be intolerant? That's going to get us a long way.
R208 is a muslim and obviously does not want to put gays to death. Don't generalise. Just as with Christianity, some Muslims are fundamentalists, and some are not.
- R223, how in the hell do you think you're any better than a homophobe with what you just wrote?
[quote]I do not need to be visually assaulted
What an embarrassingly moronic Mary.
No one has to be "pc" to know that what you just wrote is no different than someone applying the worst stereotypes to gay people just on sight or that a black person is a criminal on sight.
Most religions look unfavorably on gay people, that doesn't mean every person practicing that religion subscribes to every single tenet of that religion. Grow the hell up, you backwards-thinking idiot.
Are you Pamela Geller or Debbie Schlussel?
It's pretty obvious you're some raving Likudnik-type obsessed with Muslims when you chose to use that word, though it's misspelled.
- Actually, it is you, the defender of religion, who is the backwards thinker. Religion is what is holding humanity back from achieving true greatness. Only when we are free of all religious thought will we conquer interstellar space, end hunger and war and poverty, and make scientific breakthroughs heretofore relegated to the pages of science fiction novels.
Religion is mind-numbingly horrid, and Islam is among the most horrid of them all.
- Wow some many crazy muslim apologists here. Has the DL turned into reddit?
- R14, I'm not a "hypocritical lesbian" but am female; so much for being sure. Internal eye roll, indeed.
LOL, R224, I'm actually a Roman Catholic but have friends across various religions; some of the kindest people I've met have been agnostic or atheist. Had I judged some of these people based on their "lack of religion", I would have missed out on great friendships; we can ask each other questions without belittling the other and agree to disagree.
Judging a entire group based on the worst they have to offer is irresponsible and just plain lazy.
- Many things are holding us back. Fundamentalist faiths ARE holding us back, but not all religion. I'm an agnostic but acknowledge that certain sections of organised religion are actually very good for society.
What's holding us (as in the human race) back is the insistence that we in the west should all be permitted to live extravagantly (or aspire to that), while the have nots of this world don't even get to eat properly let alone be educated. That's what leads to terrorism.
Having access to education is evidentally not the entire answer though given some of the stupid posts on this thread e.g. the person who can't tell the difference between the KKK and a young women wearing the hajib.
- Sure, R227. There's nothing backwards whatsoever about judging a person based solely on what they are wearing which is exactly what you did. You could not be less evolved unless you started throwing your own feces.
Those like you and R228 who immediately turn this debate into a defense of *a* religion so as to validate your own bigotry, do yourselves no favors.
This is about defending individuals and their right to wear what they want without morons like you two thinking they should be attacked for it. Just because you've decided over a billion people all fall into some ridiculous, exaggerated, hateful stereotype doesn't mean the rest of us should. I guess by your definition of a Muslim, you two must be Muslims because you're both ignorant, hateful idiots.
- Oh or heaven's sake. Stop defending the archaic practice of women covering their hair because a woman's body is a sinful, tempting instrument of the devil. No one should defend such ridiculous nnsense. The fact that there are self-loathing women who 'choose' this does not make it okay. It is not liberalism to support archaic practices based in misogyny.
- Well said.
- In America they wear it by choice. In most muslim countries they wear it under law!
- Yes. It is going to far with the multi culti, sorry. Muslim nations are so anti-gay,why would I want there culture here?
- [quote]some of the kindest people I've met have been agnostic or atheist.
Of course. We're kind to people because we actually want to be and aren't trying to gain some reward or be spared some punishment on "Judgement Day."
- You are all so ignorant. Do you know how embarrassing it is to go against the norm as it is. They get stared at and ridiculed every day over something they wear over their religion. You don't see anyone complaining when someone wears their cross necklace out from under their shirts if they are in the service industry.
- R213 yup he Sounds like an Old repug... Well they are all Old but...
- Gee R237,poor fucking babys!
- Why are those sluts doing out of the house unescorted by a male relative?
- Same hypocrites who would scream bloody murder of someone was wearing a t-shirt that had a bible verse or someone with a republican campaign button was serving them.
- Um, 237, it IS the norm in Muslim culture. You're an idiot.
- It's a free country but I can't say it does them any favours.
- R241 is exactly right. This place takes great pride in its hatred of religious expression. Except for the Muslims. Then it's nothing but praise and adoration. Which is curious given that the Muslim religion is bitterly homophobic, and led by fundies. The very people that are loathed in other religions. LOTS of hypocrasy here.
- It has alot to do with FEAR R244! Attacking Islam for it's intolerence might mean car bombs going off at gay pride! Look what happened when that YouTube video aired. All the radical Muslims in Europe rioted, destroyed property, held up signs saying "To hell with democracy, Islam is coming". When have you seen the Christians, Jews, Hindu's trash the Castro when they get offended? NEVER!
- Looks like the freepers have arrived.
- R244, you're an idiot for several reasons.
No one is defending Islam. Where on DL have you seen people attacking someone for wearing a yarmulke or a turban or a cross? That's the point, you illiterate fuck.
You're too stupid to see that we're talking about not attacking some woman just because she wears a fucking scarf on her head. It's none of your fucking business if she does, just like it's none of your fucking business if someone wears a turban or a cross or a yarmulke. You don't have the right to attack someone for it, you troglodyte.
I cannot believe how embarrassingly stupid some of you are because you're so full of hate for millions and millions of people you don't even know, but just assume every single one is looking to kill. Grow up, ya idiots.
- Anyone else want to weight in during this rather sensitive time?
- I have a friend who gets occasional shit for wearing a hijab at work. She didn't when I first met her, but then after her sister died and she made her pilgrimage to Mecca she became more religious and started wearing it (along with an American flag pin so people wouldn't accuse her of being a terrorist.) I honestly don't see what the big fuss is all about. It's not hurting anybody.
- 247 is a bleeding heart liberal.
See who will defend you when you let people know you are gay.
It will not be the ones who come here and insist on bringing their baggage with them and using the U.S. and uninformed people like you.
They hate you. And you defend them?
Remember hearing about when the great immigration movement came from Western Europe and these people all wanted to become Americans?
Immigrants now not so much.
Get some education.
- R251, is the biggest asshat. No idea what he's talking about.
- oh yeah, I am gonna be skeered by a woman wearing something on her head, and it is my American right to expect her to be Anglo-Saxon and all. I buy most of my stuff online from amazon and don't like to go out to eat, so I guess I am safe. at this juncture, I am guessing we need a lot MORE women in the service industry wearing the Hijab to help erode the fear of it all.
- There's a Starbucks employee, an average-looking American woman of European descent. Plump, neither ugly nor pretty. She must have converted, and, honestly, the juxtaposition of the whitebread woman wrapped in the cultural trappings of Islam is offputting in a way I can't pinpoint.
Not defending my bias, just acknowledging it. I like classic American culture, and it saddens me to know it'll be lost to attrition and demographic changes. Prefer seeing Mexicanization to Islam making inroads.
and, honestly, if I'm in line at a government facility and see an African-American woman in Islamic trappings attendant, I'll seek another line. Jusy from prior experience.
Love Oriana Failacci shedding her sheet while interviewing Khomeini, calling it a medeival rag
- I don't think a hijab is the same as any traditional grab. That it is an expression of the place women and their bodies are placed in society makes it more objectionable to me than a tattoo or piercing.
- Sorry it just looks weird and I doubt Muslim women would wear a veil if their anti feminist society wouldn't force them too.
- I like it. Sometimes you have to figure out that someone is a moron. With that, you can tell right away so it's a real time-saver!
- I have to confess that I grimace every time I see a woman wearing one. The whole Islamic world needs brought into the 21st century, for the sanity of themselves as well as everyone else.
- This girl, and I know her, wants us to believe she has a "special relationship" with Obama. The truth is she is cray-cray.
- Very tiresome. I liken them to the Walking Dead. I see more and more. When in Rome, do as the Romans do, people. You leave your countries where it is acceptable and flaunt it here. Freedom to express one's religion not withstanding, it doesn't belong here. One day we will be surrounded by the Walking Dead and it will be too late. We will be an annex to the Middle East.
- If it is against company dress code then YES it is inappropriate...a devout religionist should not seek employment where they know the "garb" will not be allowed and then demand special concessions while angling for a "discrimination" payout. Look how well that worked out for Disney despite their MORE than reasonable attempts at accomodation...including imagineering a special head covering uniform for her.
Incidentally, there is no Quranic mandate to wear hijab...it just says to dress modestly. The hijab is a tribal tradition...and a controlling patriarcal,political and domineering one at that.
- I'm sure some of the people attacking these women and every Muslim in general whines about anti-Christian/anti-Jewish bigotry on DL, but there are now several anti-Muslim threads going.
Zero ability to be introspective.
- Actually, I think it's desirable in a job around food. Keeps the hair out.
That's what hairnets are for sweetie.
- Would these same companies fire a religious Jewish woman for wearing a wig or a Jewish man from wearing a yarmulke? Would they stop some fundie from wearing skirts well below the knee and odd looking tops? What about an Amish woman wearing a prayer cap if any of them have outside jobs? If the answer is no then for sure they have no right to go after the Muslim way of dress.
- I want a hijab-wearing barista NOW.
- R262, oh please. You're tired, go to sleep.
Religion should not be a protected class. Religions are the most powerful and oppressive institutions on Earth. They are not 'oppressed'. And it's certainly not something like race or sexual orientation. There's no 'right' to wear a scarf to cover your head, because you're a vile, filthy woman who incites poor helpless men to rape you. The custom is bizarre and rooted in misogyny. Follow the fucking dress code and STFU.
- anyone else?
- I avoid the line with the muslim woman if possible. Islam is evil.
- As long as they don't cover the face, I have no problem with it.
- "I avoid the line with the muslim woman if possible. Islam is evil."
You wrote this to be ironic, right?
Because if you're under the impression that your behavior is anything short of loathsome, then you're also an idiot.