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Why Do Gay Men Seem To Idolize And Relate To Women?

We all know this is true. Yes, there's misogynistic gay men, but still, the majority of gays can relate to women more so than to men for some reason. Is it because we grow up gay, and can't really fit in with a society full of straight males, so they look towards the other gender? Is there truth to gay men's brains are more in line with women's? I'm just really curious. It's not bad to somehow have a woman as a role model, but with gay men, it seems overwhelmingly so, more than they can relate to straight men, or men period.

Just a sociological question.

by Anonymousreply 238February 20, 2019 3:37 PM

Idolize???? Oh honey, please go to bed now. Way pasht your bedtime.

by Anonymousreply 1November 20, 2011 5:10 AM

I think that trend was more a part of the past when gay men admired people like Streisand and Garland because of their talent and outsider status or troubled pasts.

Plus it was part of the closet mentality. Men couldn't openly admire male performers like they can nowadays.

by Anonymousreply 2November 20, 2011 5:20 AM

It's an eldergay thing. In the old days, when the only out gays were the ones who were too fem to "pass," they embraced their fate by being even more feminine and, for the times, outrageous.

Like everyone else on the planet, gays have always had people they looked up to and admired, but until modern times, the only ones you knew about were the ones the effeminates and drag queen types idolized.

by Anonymousreply 3November 20, 2011 5:28 AM

I think with a lot of gay men it's the exact opposite - they try too hard to identify with and emulate straight males (and frequently put down women), as though that will get them the approval (and the straight cock) they're after.

by Anonymousreply 4November 20, 2011 5:29 AM

[quote]Yes, there's misogynistic gay men,

These seem to be the ones who are most likely to identify with and idolize women, strangely enough.

by Anonymousreply 5November 20, 2011 5:30 AM

We have no idea what you're talking about, r5.

by Anonymousreply 6November 20, 2011 5:33 AM

So is this considered a sensitive issue?

by Anonymousreply 7November 20, 2011 8:11 AM

I've always wondered OP. And more so, they idolize really mean women,not nice ones at all. They are always 'Diva's'.

R2 r3

Then what do you call the obsession with Beyonce, Lady Gaga, Adele? Basically any female singer that is larger than life?

Now name me ONE male entertainer that gay men publicly like and talk about on blogs.

The only two I can think of who they shower love to are 1) who wears make up and tight clothes-Adam Lambert and 2) who has a high pitched voiced, out face and is as camp as anything-Chris Colfer.

And when they DO talk about men, they are either insulting them or gassing about wanting them to f*ck them hard.

Major issues there.

by Anonymousreply 8November 20, 2011 8:34 AM

[quote]And more so, they idolize really mean women,not nice ones at all. They are always 'Diva's'.

Either they idolize divas, or they ironically caricature squeaky clean, prim and proper, feminine women. It's a very odd obsession.

by Anonymousreply 9November 20, 2011 8:42 AM

It's not as if culture provides many openly gay performers to idolize.

So, as a gay man with very few heroes to choose from, I must choose from a straight pool.

Do I relate with the model who fucks women or do I relate with the with the model who fucks men?

I would like to climb and drool all over Howie Long, but I don't want to know anything about his sports or personal history. Instead, I identify with Terry Hatcher who had to make up for working with Howie (as well as a pre-fat Dean Cain) by sitting with oily, flabby Ms. Seacrest.

by Anonymousreply 10November 20, 2011 8:57 AM

[R5], I've noticed that too in my circle of gay acquaintances. The ones who idolize the divas and are obsessed with them are also the ones who don't have any female friends and are quite viciously misogynistic.

by Anonymousreply 11November 20, 2011 9:29 AM

"I've always wondered OP. And more so, they idolize really mean women,not nice ones at all. They are always 'Diva's'."

No, the Divas aren't nice, they're overwhelming personalities, ones who combine femininity with *power*. Feminine personalities need strong role models, too.

by Anonymousreply 12November 20, 2011 9:48 AM

If there were no gay men, who would show appreciation for the kind of women no straight man gives a second thought to, e.g. Judy Davis, Holland Taylor, Allison Janney, Jessica Walter, etc.

by Anonymousreply 13November 20, 2011 10:17 AM

Mostly East Coast effeminates idolize the diva.

by Anonymousreply 14November 20, 2011 10:28 AM

[quote]The only two I can think of who they shower love to are 1) who wears make up and tight clothes-Adam Lambert and 2) who has a high pitched voiced, out face and is as camp as anything-Chris Colfer.

Uh, are you drunk, R8? Adam Lambert and Chris Colfer's fans are overwhelmingly women. No gay men are into them.

by Anonymousreply 15November 20, 2011 10:45 AM

Oh brother!

by Anonymousreply 17November 20, 2011 12:02 PM

ANIMA DEAR, ANIMA. Projection of the Anima.

by Anonymousreply 18November 20, 2011 12:03 PM

You're sick, r16. Get help. You hate gay men as much as any fundie and carry the exact same sorts of stereotypes and sublimated anger.

Seriously. That rant sounds like something from the 50s.

r16, do you know how many women have been sexually abused or treated violently at the hands of men? Now tell me: is that gay men doing that?!

You've read a few frau jokes on an anonymous internet message board. We like Cher: And sudden'y WE'RE the mysogynists and get this insane rant?! You're sick in the head.

Gay men are the most reviled, stereotyped, and denigrated minority in the world. We are legally unequal and likely will be for a long time. And on top of it we get called racist and mysogynist for the pleasure. Your insanity is adding to it. Thanks

Gay men do not think with one mind. Start there, you sick freak.

by Anonymousreply 19November 20, 2011 12:08 PM

It's a myth perpetrated by the mainstream. I don't know a single gay man who idolizes women. For most gay men, women play a fairly attenuated role in their lives.

by Anonymousreply 20November 20, 2011 12:33 PM

Gay men can idolize women and relate to them because they don't see them as sexual objects. They look for other things in them. It's a totally different dynamic. They 'enjoy' and 'love' women differently and there are certain types of women who particularly appeal to them, especially if they are funny and/or eccentric or stylish. These are not the qualities a straight man looks for in a woman.

by Anonymousreply 21November 20, 2011 12:38 PM

[quote]Gay men can idolize women and relate to them because they don't see them as sexual objects.

Is that the same reason some lesbians seem to idolize and relate to men?

Rosie O'Donnell - Tom Cruise

Ellen - George Clooney

by Anonymousreply 22November 20, 2011 12:44 PM

I think there are two separate issues here.

I think any misogynistic male has mother issues. I haven't met one who has a normal maternal relationship. She was either overbearing, completely neglectful, or a punching bag for the father.

I think the relationships gay men have historically had with women is diminishing. Prior to the 70s you just couldn't live an open lifestyle. Women were more sensitive and understanding than straight men were to gay men and their lives and loves. Women weren't threatened by gay men and were more likely to treat them as equals, and friendships naturally formed. You could be yourself and relax more in professions that were traditionally "feminine": fashion, beauty, etc. I'm not saying there weren't gay men in butch professions, but you certainly had to hide your sexual preference if you were say, a bricklayer.

Now that it's possible to live an open lifestyle, the social structure has changed somewhat, and as time goes on, I think it will change even more. I don't think you'll see younger gay men with diva idols. Then it was what you had to talk about and what you surrounded yourself with. As the gay culture continues to morph, the stereotypes that the OP talks of will disappear. You can see it happening now. References to "friend of Dorothy" are outdated and (rightfully) worthy of eyerolls and disdainful looks.

It's time to move on and let those tired stereotypes go.

by Anonymousreply 23November 20, 2011 1:16 PM

Straight men idolize men- sports stars, politicians, a few movie stars. Heterosexual women idolize and admire men and women- so to do gay men. It is really simple: gay men ADMIRE women of achievement and talent- and yes idolize- because they are not afraid to. It is not because they are troubled- is Barbra Streisand troubled? Is Hillary Clinton troubled? Is Martina Navratilova troubles? Is Rene Flemming troubled. Yes, they admire the troubled ones too- Garland, Monroe-

But then men admire troubled men as well- if they also are bigger than life achievers and talents.

It is not pathetic, it is not weird, and it is not wrong. It simply is. And I for one, being a great admirer of Streisand, Clinton (Hillary), King, Navratilova, and others revel in the fact that I can feel great appreciation for these women and their gifts. I also admire, perhaps the most of all humans, Winston Churchill, Abraham Lincoln- and I love Roger Federer too. To me all these men and women inspire me and have enriched my life knowing about them in print and in the present.

It's really pretty simple for me. Very few straight men I know, openly admire women. Think about it.

It's one of the good things about being a gay man.

by Anonymousreply 24November 20, 2011 1:23 PM

Please. I loathe most women and the "men" who act like them.

by Anonymousreply 25November 20, 2011 1:30 PM

"Gay men are the most reviled, stereotyped, and denigrated minority in the world."

No, you are not. Women are.

by Anonymousreply 26November 20, 2011 1:33 PM

Interesting R26. Can you elaborate?

I know a lot of minorities who could make that argument. I don't know if I buy yours.

by Anonymousreply 27November 20, 2011 1:38 PM

And as a straight woman, I think that it is a mutual admiration club. Straight women idolize gay men... on TV, in film and in music. We just love a gay man, and often, we love the big, flamboyant gay men the most. It is fun and silly. I assume it's the same with the whole diva thing. It's larger than life and fun.

I think that the relationship between gay men and women is an easy one. From the female perspective, it gives us a chance to have relationships with people without sexual implications nor the female relational issues that are often a constant. Women are the same as they were in high school... competitive and judgmental. Men just operate in a different way so we get to be with men without worrying about whether they want to fuck us and if not, wondering what is wrong with us. Plus, you are the only people in the world who encourage our worst behavior. You don't judge us for being drunken sluts. lol

So we idolize you as the perfect humans for us.

by Anonymousreply 28November 20, 2011 1:44 PM

[quote]is Barbra Streisand troubled? Is Hillary Clinton troubled? Is Martina Navratilova troubles? Is Rene Flemming troubled.

Slightly, YES, YES, I don't know. First of all, charlie, it's clear that you're no better than most straight men who admire people based solely on their fame/athletic prowess. I bet you were livid when straight men offered up a series of excuses for Michael Vick or Tiger Woods, yet you ignore the fact that Martina Navratilova IS troubled--just like others in sports. Are you aware of the cruel and disturbing behavior she's exhibited toward a series of exes? One accusation is questionable. Multiple accusations indicate a trend. And Clinton isn't troubled? I know for 100% fact based on PERSONAL EXPERIENCE (not rubbing shoulders at fundraisers) that she can be a fucking nightmare to deal with. It's one thing to be the type who doesn't suffer fools gladly, but Hillary is a proverbial snake in the grass who takes joy in cutting down others. Also, a woman who fails to address the behavior of her husband, who's a serial cheater, is not exactly an example of stability!

As for Barbra, her erratic behavior is well known, but she seems to be mellowing with age.

by Anonymousreply 29November 20, 2011 1:46 PM

It's so fucked up when people criticize Hillary because her husband cheated on her.

by Anonymousreply 30November 20, 2011 2:09 PM

R29, I think you are letting anger get the better of your thinking- and I also think you do not really know what you are talking about- or perhaps you are a Republican- NO ONE is perfect- those that I mention above are not perfect.

As for Clinton and Navratilova and Streisand- One of my closest friends has been close friends with the Clintons for decades- you are full of bullshit (perhaps you don't know it)- and yeah I've met them too. I have met Martina a number of times- she is lovely- she has had messy divorces- so have two of my siblings and half of my gay friends- trust me, when you have money- spouses and boyfriends and girlfriends go after it when things don't work out. As for Streisand- old friend of mine (have seen little of him in the last 10 years) -Bob Schulumberg illustrator- taught Streisand to apply her Nefertti look in the early 60s- has always told me Barbra is just a hard working shy woman of immense talent and ambition. She also has remained best friends with all her romantic interests and despite smarmy press reports, secured the lives of each of her family financially- looonnnggg ago. She has held her life together in every detail since she was 19 and started a singular career in show business- unlike Micheal Jackson, Monroe, Garland, Presley, Brando, Piaf, or Callas at any time in their lives. And sometimes I do admire those whose lives are a mess- because they have talent perhaps that is so huge. Streisand, in fact, she is kind of remarkable for her stability given her huge success so fast and for so long. Such success ate most other great talents alive.

As for their public images and professional lives- rarely has the private interferred with the public and professional. I would suggest to you, that that is about as good as you can get. Lincoln probably had a more troubled life than these entertainers and athletes- still the greatest man of the 19th century, hands down.

Fame- NO- athletic prowess, talent, absolutely. But I don't like Margaret Court who won more slams than Martina- any man or women in fact. I do not idolize Rafael Nadal who is at least as famous as Federer and perhaps as good a tennis player. I like Federer's personality AND his tennis genius and his style of play. (Love Rod Laver too.)

Flemming, Price, Streisand- fame- NO- their talent and the character behind the talent- YES. Not Whitney, not Jlo (no talent), not Britney (no talent). Churchill and Lincoln's oratory and genius with the English language and abilities to see the world with more clarity than any of their peers before or since- yes.

Fame? Who is more famous than W? Do I admire him? Are you kidding?

Get it? (Love Madeline Albright too.)

P.S. My Dad is a great man too- really.

by Anonymousreply 31November 20, 2011 2:32 PM

[quote]Is that the same reason some lesbians seem to idolize and relate to men? Rosie O'Donnell - Tom cruise Ellen - George Clooney

No, that's rich, famous ppl kissing one another's asses and covering for their industry friends.

If the queen of butch dykes Rosie "gets wet" at the sight and thought of Tammy, imagine just how manly and straight he is! He couldn't possibly be gay. Same with Ellen and Clooney.

by Anonymousreply 32November 20, 2011 2:41 PM

[quote]Also, a woman who fails to address the behavior of her husband, who's a serial cheater, is not exactly an example of stability!

Oh, I love this one. People (women mostly) assume that Hillary is weak or in some way defective because she doesn't kick her "cheatin' man" to the curb. What makes you assume she even cares? Many, many long term marriages morph over time into platonic relationships that work very well for the couple. Who are you to judge them? Do you really think most marriages that are 30-40 years old have any passion or romance left in them? Of course they don't. They are partnerships of convenience and companionship. Only a deluded 14year old girl believes in forever springtime love. I'm sure Hill and Bill came to terms long ago.

by Anonymousreply 33November 20, 2011 2:44 PM

[quote]Streisand, in fact, she is kind of remarkable for her stability given her huge success so fast and for so long. Such success ate most other great talents alive.

That's really a good point R31. I've never appreciated that about her but [italic]it is[/italic] extremely rare.

by Anonymousreply 34November 20, 2011 2:52 PM

You're right, charlie. My firsthand experiences with Hillary Clinton mean nothing compared to your second hand accounts! Bill is amazing, in spite of his personal failings. That doesn't mean he's not (decreasingly, as time marches forward) troubled. Hillary is fundamentally brilliant, but again, that doesn't mean she's not troubled. I don't consider myself angry at her either. I just wanted to call out the bullshit claim made by some sycophant trying to deify her.

charlie, I'm not sure why you felt it was necessary to selectively apply the term "troubled," but it's clear you'll defend who you like, and that's that. For the record, I respect and admire Hillary Clinton. As a matter of fact, I still think she would've made a fantastic POTUS had things turned out differently in 2008. That doesn't mean she's not a master manipulator/insecure bitch!

PS: I may or may not know you're friend, who I'm sure is a longtime friend and confidant of the Clinton's (eyeroll), but I think it's funny how people over exaggerate their relationships with the rich and powerful. The Clinton's don't let anybody and everybody into their personal circle, so even of someone has socialized with them over the course of 20 years it doesn't mean friendship is implied.

by Anonymousreply 35November 20, 2011 2:55 PM

[quote]Interesting [R26]. Can you elaborate? I know a lot of minorities who could make that argument. I don't know if I buy yours.

I'm not 26 but I agree with him/her. In half the places in the world the situation of women is way worse than that of gay men. If you look at the Muslim and Arab world alone, every woman is in constant peril and most of them barely have more rights than farm animals. It's no picnic being gay in those places but men can "pass" there just by virtue of being male so as long as they don't utter the words "I'm gay" and are discreet and careful in their sexual encounters, they have more freedom and options than any woman could ever dream of. Not making light of the situation of gay men in those hellholes but it's still a lot better than being female there.

In India where most of them are Hindu, the situation of women is only slightly better but not by much.

by Anonymousreply 36November 20, 2011 3:02 PM

R16 needs serious help. I am a gay man, and I do not want to be a woman, nor do I idolize them-- as a matter of fact, there are many I cannot stand! Actually, there are many men I can't stand either! Grow up OP, the world is full of people we like and dislike-- who gives a flying fuck what gender they are!!!

by Anonymousreply 37November 20, 2011 3:03 PM

I agree, r27. Stating that women are the most reviled minority is an odd assertion.

Should we begin with the fact that women are not a minority? That abuse of women--though common--is generally illegal and seen as a bad thing, while punishment of gay people, even execution, the withdrawal of their civil equality and so on, is still thought to benefit and protect society?

by Anonymousreply 38November 20, 2011 3:09 PM

The fact that some gay people can hide their orientation does not make gay people any less reviled, r36.

For instance, Jews are a more reviled minority than people with red hair, even though many Jews can hide their religion.

by Anonymousreply 39November 20, 2011 3:13 PM

You dont have to be a gay man or a woman to be a diva. There are plenty of straight men that are huge divas. But that behavior doesn't get called out because it is expected for the world to bend over backwards for the straight man.

by Anonymousreply 40November 20, 2011 3:16 PM

True r39 but in the examples I gave, being able to hide can make the difference between having a good life (as much as can be in those places) and living in hell. It's the difference between being and not being at all.

by Anonymousreply 41November 20, 2011 3:27 PM

Because we grow up with straight women as the omnipresent cultural and real-llfe people in love with and sexually interested in men. It is not at all surprising that many of us then relate to and in some instances idolize straight women as our own sexuality is both projected on them and informed by theirs.

by Anonymousreply 42November 20, 2011 3:49 PM

R42 has a point.

Coming out meant I could agree or disagree if my mother or sisters or female friends commented on a mans looks.

by Anonymousreply 43November 20, 2011 3:58 PM

I hate these "oppression olympics" debates but I just want to say that women are indeed a minority - there are more men than women in the world. In a great deal of the world women are heavily devalued and abused, and yes, such treatment of women is often justified by being "thought to benefit and protect society." Many of the stereotypes and much of the denigration of gay men around the world are based on similar attitudes toward women.

by Anonymousreply 44November 20, 2011 6:50 PM

[quote]Is that the same reason some lesbians seem to idolize and relate to men?

No, lesbians are mostly indifferent to men. Straight men like to flatter themselves by pretending that we hate and are jealous of them. The truth is we just want to be left out of their sexual fantasies.

by Anonymousreply 45November 20, 2011 7:11 PM

Straight men don't openly admire women because they feel it's "unmanly" to look at women as anything other than sex objects. Many gay men, thankfully, are more evolved than that. However, as gay men are becoming more accepted by straight men, some of them are taking on the more negative, misogynistic qualities of straight men.

by Anonymousreply 46November 20, 2011 8:16 PM

[quote]that women are indeed a minority

No, they are not. They are the majority. There are more women than men.

by Anonymousreply 47November 20, 2011 8:28 PM

I think this stereotype applies more to effeminate gay men. Most effeminate gay men were also effeminate as young boys and consequently were bullied and harassed by the stronger, gender normative boys. If a young boy cannot fight these bullies using physical force, he resorts to fighting with words. It's not a coincidence that the stereotype of witty, catty, gay men exists. When you spend your childhood and teens in a state of persistent verbal combat, your ability to make cutting remarks will be superior to that of typical meat-head jock. The diva archetype is attractive because the diva is an embodiment of this type of power. She can destroy with a simple look, a toss of the hair, or witticism.

by Anonymousreply 48November 20, 2011 8:47 PM

Men outnumber women, not by much, but the bottom line is that women are technically a minority. It is only in the elderly age brackets (65+) that women outnumber men, but men outnumber women overall and always have.

From World Demographics Profile 2011:

at birth: 1.07 male(s)/female under 15 years: 1.07 male(s)/female 15-64 years: 1.02 male(s)/female 65 years and over: 0.79 male(s)/female total population: 1.01 male(s)/female (2011 est.)

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 49November 20, 2011 8:58 PM

R44, I agree completely. Homophobia against gay men is fundamentally rooted in misogyny. Feminine characteristics are reviled. This is why the butch gay man is held in such high regard whereas the effeminate gay man is mocked and ridiculed. When you see the hateful depictions of gay men in the media, it's always the stereotype of the mincey, swishy, limp wristed queen. The ultimate threatening idea to a heterosexual male is that of being the object of penetration. They believe that only females should be the object of penetration and consider this a form of degradation.

by Anonymousreply 50November 20, 2011 9:01 PM

To say "gay men are jealous of women" is an oversimplification. Some aren't jealous at all, and those who are jealous of women are only jealous of a few things - such as the fact that women can be valued for feminine characteristics, while men are reviled for the same.

And it can't be stated too ofted that homophobia is indeed rooted in misogyny, the belief that to be feminine is to be inferior.

by Anonymousreply 51November 20, 2011 9:09 PM

Appreciate your posts, R 48/50.

by Anonymousreply 52November 21, 2011 1:22 AM

Short answer to the OP question:

Because most men, gay and straight, are assholes.

by Anonymousreply 53November 21, 2011 1:35 AM

r25 is the biggest nellie on the planet

by Anonymousreply 54November 21, 2011 1:55 AM

f45 is an ugly bulldyke with penis envy issues

by Anonymousreply 55November 21, 2011 2:28 AM

Interesting thread.

by Anonymousreply 56November 21, 2011 10:21 PM

R28

The most honest post here. Very true and good to hear from a women's point of view.

by Anonymousreply 57November 21, 2011 10:30 PM

R15

My bad. I should've said young gay men but if you go on the After Elton Glee thread, you will realize it's older men too but maybe not as large.

by Anonymousreply 58November 21, 2011 10:34 PM

Speaking for myself, I don't particularly idolise women, but I'm just as likely to relate to a woman as a man, and most straight guys I've known tend to relate to ther straight guys, so it's probably more noticeable when someone such as me relates to either.

When I was growing up gay in the 80's, the only people who visibly had attraction to, and had relationships with men were women, so the answer seems obvious. As I've got older & embraced the complexity of life and people, it's not all that relevant wheher they are gay, straight, male or female.

by Anonymousreply 59November 21, 2011 10:36 PM

[quote]Straight women idolize gay men... on TV, in film and in music.

I don't think this is true at all. Hollywood always shows women that gay men are 'safe', fun, happy, brilliant, hilarious, and likable, BUT THAT IS JUST HOLLYWOOD. This is not to say that straight women dislike gay men.

But most residual positive feelings they have towards gay men is because of how gay men are portrayed in the media.

by Anonymousreply 60November 21, 2011 10:41 PM

Young gay men idolizing women doesn't exist!

by Anonymousreply 61November 21, 2011 10:46 PM

I think gay men identify with "overcoming" obstacles that women seem to have to in our society.

Eldergays related to the long suffering, pining of Garland and Streisand and winning the handsome man in the end. The more recent generations relate to the "Fuck you, I'll be whatever I want" of Madonna, Lady Gaga, etc.

As others mentioned - without solid gay role models, gay boys seem more drawn to what appears to be the underdog - and that sadly is the female population in some respects.

by Anonymousreply 62November 21, 2011 10:58 PM

I have a lot of gay male friends including my two best friends. And I've pointed this out to them before- from what i've observed from them, they are obsessed with women. The only people they idolise are female performers, but they often make quite mysoginistic remarks and jokes about women. I'm a lesbian, but we don't talk about mens penis' half as much as they go on about female parts.

by Anonymousreply 63November 22, 2011 1:10 AM

Lesbians rarely talk about men, trust me.

by Anonymousreply 64November 22, 2011 1:20 AM

But when they do, it's bad.

by Anonymousreply 65November 22, 2011 6:25 AM

I think that a lot of them want to basically be women, but don't want to get a physical surgery.

by Anonymousreply 66November 22, 2011 10:23 PM

[quote]Now name me ONE male entertainer that gay men publicly like and talk about on blogs.

Patti Lupone

by Anonymousreply 67November 22, 2011 10:28 PM

[quote]And it can't be stated too ofted that homophobia is indeed rooted in misogyny, the belief that to be feminine is to be inferior.

Yes, if a 10 yr old girl shows male characteristics and even says she wishes she was a boy, adults will generally be amused. If a 10 yr old boy says he wishes he was a girl and plays with dolls, horror and fear prevails.

by Anonymousreply 68November 22, 2011 11:17 PM

R68, I think the vast majority of people would have a problem with both examples.

by Anonymousreply 69November 22, 2011 11:45 PM

Trevor Martin Trevor Martin

Writer and actor GET UPDATES FROM Trevor Martin

Like Why Do Gay Men Historically Adopt Female Stars as Their Icons? Posted: 09/12/2013 6:16 pm Read more Gay Divas, Judy Garland, Marilyn Monroe, Bette Davis, Gay Icons, Gay Men Divas, Gay Men Female Icons, Gay Men Female Stars, Gay Patron Saints, Joan Crawford, Gay Voices News

Gay Icons 25 5 2 29 Get Gay Voices Newsletters: Subscribe

An acquaintance here in San Francisco informed me that these women are not merely icons: These heroines are veritable patron saints!

When a little boy who is destined to grow up straight has a poster of his favorite sports star, superhero, or astronaut on his bedroom wall, we may conclude that he admires and identifies with him and perhaps even wants to be his icon in some way.

But what about me? Did I want to be my female heroines?

I have pondered this phenomenon since I first realized I am gay. As a young child of 10, I would shut myself away during the weekends, curtains closed in the living room, and watch the triple bill of films on Saturday-afternoon BBC TV: Bette Davis. Marilyn Monroe. Judy Garland. Joan Crawford. The judo expert Emma Peel, portrayed amazingly by the inimitable Diana Rigg, in the UK-produced spy spoof The Avengers; I definitely wanted to be Emma Peel when I was 9 years old. Samantha from Bewitched was a favorite, though I secretly admired her delightfully meddling and wicked mother, Endora, the most!

In adulthood we discover that other gay men had adopted these women in exactly the same way in childhood. Why do we, as individuals, gravitate to women, even the same women, before we are part of a gay scene, and before we are swept up in any collective gay groupthink?

The most noted and revered of gay men's icons are inevitably quirky or uncommonly beautiful and always talented. They portray a vulnerability that is often wrapped up in strength in the face of adversity. Lurking behind the glitz they may have troubled personal lives -- perhaps their lives are tainted by emotional turbulence -- and sometimes a subtle sense of pathos filters out from just behind the eyes.

Women who have been iconized by gay men are often hysterically funny too. The tragic element alongside high-camp humor are common denominators: the heightened or exaggerated characters they play, or the personae they choose to project, portraying a life at high frequency, top volume. We also gravitate to the characters the actresses play so brilliantly, such as Bette Davis in roles where she is often feisty and strident but also misunderstood and deeply vulnerable in the final analysis.

While pondering our icons, I decided to reach out to two university professors who have written about gender and sexuality issues with regard to gay culture.

Heather Love, a professor of English at Pennsylvania University, received her B.A. from Harvard and her Ph.D. from the University of Virginia. Her research interests include gender studies and queer theory. Professor Love cautioned me against overanalyzing the issue. When I asked her about her take on "camp" and the female icon, she said:

Esther Newton writes, "Camp humor is a system of laughing at one's incongruous position instead of crying," and I think that is pretty apt. The charge of camp is a result of social exclusion -- both the suffering and the insight that come from being an outsider.

She continued:

I am a bit wary of "pscyhologizing," [which is] one step away from "pathologizing" the camp impulse in gay men.... [O]ne can analyze this attraction [to female icons] in terms of what these figures represent: a highly stylized femininity and toughness combined with abjection, a kind of overexposed and highly theatrical situation of longing and self-making.

Professor Love went on to say that she feels that gay men gravitated to, for example, Joan Crawford because that is what gay men do -- "it is part of being a gay man" -- but I was left with more questions than answers.

Is there more to it?

Is it "pathologizing" to embrace the fact that we are different and delve deeply into why? As gays assimilate into the mainstream, it is often unpopular to champion our own individual and collective quirkiness. Do we lose something in the process of acceptance? I question the notion that gay men gravitate to female stars and pedestalize them simply because a lot of people like them: In order to be inducted into the gay men's hall of iconic fame, women need certain qualities over and above being female, for sure, but it is evident that being female is the one prerequisite.

Is it a joy of gender-bending, a phenomenon that is a perhaps a distant second cousin of transgenderism, as evidenced by the historical popularity of drag artists and drag performance in the gay subculture? Are gay people in the twilight zone of gender more than we acknowledge, or is there a simpler explanation?

Professor Love rounded off our chat by saying:

I guess I just think that the real difficulty here could be more social than psychic. Being a woman is a social identity as well as a psychic one; a lot is wrapped up in that identification, including simply not being in a position of social dominance. But you are right: It is a minefield!

I am wary of being too wary of analyzing the gay-icon phenomenon, because I think it has something to do with gender-bending and perhaps even wishful thinking on the part of gay men. I was nervous of my hypothesis, but why?

Professor Love says that gay men choose women because women are marginalized, so gay men identify.

But wait!

Marlon Brando and James Dean are lesbian icons. If part of the gay issue is to identify with those who are maligned or oppressed, then why do lesbians elevate Marlon Brando and James Dean to iconic status? Brando and Dean and the qualities they emanate hardly come off as oppressed. This would throw a curve ball to the notion that gay men iconize women because, historically, women have been marginalized.

David J. Leonard is an associate professor in the Department of Critical Culture, Gender, and Race Studies at Washington State University. I asked him why he thought gay men adopt females as icons, and he said:

The women often said to be icons are most certainly women who don't necessarily fit the script of femininity and sexual appeal within media culture. These women challenge and refuse to fit into this sort of commodity culture. They enter into media culture through their own script, their own definition of self. I think these qualities are celebrated and admired, especially within communities that are also depicted and treated as outsiders, as undesirable, and not "normative." Icons transcend generations; icons come to represent a broader cultural movement or genre, but most important, as icons, their visibility crosses community and generation, [whereas] "popularity" is ephemeral and is specific to a moment.

I think there is a difference between a star who simply happens to have many gay male fans and a star who is a bona fide gay patron saint, and I wanted to conclude with this: I fell in love with Olivia Newton-John when I was 11. She is a star with many gay fans -- I discovered on my 40th birthday, when I went to see her perform in Las Vegas, that she has a huge gay following -- but arguably, she's not quite a gay icon. I have watched several interviews in which she is asked why she thinks she has such a loyal gay male following, and her reply is interesting: "I am not a threat."

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 70September 13, 2013 3:08 AM

'.ll

by Anonymousreply 71September 13, 2013 9:18 PM

Wow, this easy. Unless my eyes skimmed over the right answer already, it's a mum-fixation and a dad alienation. Plain and simple to understand. That's why they dig the diva types. They probably had very controlling, strong mums, and weak or absent dads who despised them for their emulation of their mums.

by Anonymousreply 72September 13, 2013 9:33 PM

interesting

by Anonymousreply 73June 1, 2014 2:50 AM

R13- plenty of lesbians.

by Anonymousreply 74June 1, 2014 2:57 AM

"They probably had very controlling, strong mums, and weak or absent dads who despised them for their emulation of their mums."

You are obviously posting from the year 1955.

by Anonymousreply 75June 1, 2014 3:15 AM

[quote]Gay men are jealous of women, and I've said that here many times. They wish with all their hearts they WERE women,and although they will vehemently deny that, methinks they doth protest too much.

Kinsey Scale, R16. Kinsey Scale. This quote reminds me so much of something that happened when I was 19. I was staying at a family friend's house for the Summer. The mother was a menopausal, frustrated actress married to the most boring architect in the world. Both alcoholics. I was gay and out. It was the early 70s.

One night she sat at the head of the table and, with her pitcher of martinis lifted to her lips with boths hands, she proclaimed that "You don't know what it's like to be a woman. You just want to BE one!" Then she made a sweeping dramatic exit from the room.

Her daughter was home from college that weekend. She was beautiful. I remember watching her studying something on the couch that day, a sandal dangling off her big toe. She knew I was watching.

Later that night, she slipped into my room and we made love. It was one of the greatest experiences of my life.

People need to stop generalizing about everybody. You base your assumptions on a caricature based on a few personal experiences.

There should be a disclaimer: IKIG for "I Know I'm Generalizing," or TIAGS for "This Is A General Statement."

by Anonymousreply 76June 1, 2014 3:16 AM

I love the detail of lifting a whole pitcher of martinis with both hands, R76.

by Anonymousreply 77June 1, 2014 3:36 AM

H

by Anonymousreply 78June 1, 2014 6:24 AM

d

by Anonymousreply 79June 21, 2014 6:56 PM

I think it has to do with the history of out gay men. In the past Out gay men were more likely to have feminine traits which were probably why they were probably out in the first place. The couldnt fake heteronormativity. The nellie who were socialized growing up identifying more with females. Now that homosexuality is acceptable, guys dont have to fake, ie out gay men can be more inclusive of an array of different personalities. Youll see a change in what gay men seem to idolize to reflect that. Im one of those people who thinks most people are bi so please do not take offense.

by Anonymousreply 80June 21, 2014 7:03 PM

Excuse all the typos and grammar errors.

by Anonymousreply 81June 21, 2014 7:14 PM

good point r80

by Anonymousreply 82June 21, 2014 7:15 PM

These gay men are bisexual. They have subliminated their bisexuality.

Everyone is bisexual; only few have the courage to proclaim it.

by Anonymousreply 83June 21, 2014 7:17 PM

"Everyone is bisexual"

Nope, not according to the evidence. You just want to believe everyone is the same.

"These gay men are bisexual."

LOL. Mean who are genuinely attracted to women don't care about "divas" and fag hags.

by Anonymousreply 84June 21, 2014 7:40 PM

[quote]And it can't be stated too ofted that homophobia is indeed rooted in misogyny, the belief that to be feminine is to be inferior.

Girls can wear jeans and cut their hair short, wear shirts and boots 'cause it's OK to be a boy. But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading 'cause you think that being a girl is degrading. But secretly you'd love to know what it's like, wouldn't you?

by Anonymousreply 85June 21, 2014 7:51 PM

^ I meant "men who are genuinely attracted to women..."

by Anonymousreply 86June 21, 2014 7:51 PM

r27 I corroborate r26. Working in TV/film I have run into many other gays working on crews most of them openly (not talking the beauty trades of hair/wardrobe/make up) and I've never witnesses any prejudice from the straight guys toward us. But I do hear plenty of fucked up comments when it comes to women. Men love to control and straight men whether they realize it or not seem to enjoy taking whatever frustrates out on women. If they get started as a group complaining about women it's almost like watching a nature show. The pack of hyenas tearing at the carcass of an animal. Really pretty scary and gives me a lot of sympathy for women.

by Anonymousreply 87June 21, 2014 7:57 PM

Yeah, all the gay dudes who love Bette Midler and Patti LuPone are "really bi"

Uh huh

by Anonymousreply 88June 22, 2014 1:15 AM

[quote] This is why the butch gay man is held in such high regard whereas the effeminate gay man is mocked and ridiculed.

By whom is 'the butch gay man is held in such high regard'?

by Anonymousreply 89June 22, 2014 7:40 AM

Thanks for many interesting responses to OP.

Let's go back a bit further. What made some of us, me included, seek out mostly or only girls as playmates and friends, when we were very young? I still have more women as friends today.

by Anonymousreply 90June 22, 2014 11:15 PM

r90, I think until recently, a lot of feminine males or openly gay guys were forced to hang with girls and women because straight men feared associating with gay guys because of the stigma of homosexuality. Only recently have large numbers of openly gay men had close friendships with heterosexual men. It was very difficult to establish such relationships in the past. IN the past, coming out meant severing relationships with your straight male peers. Thankfully, that is no longer the case.

by Anonymousreply 91June 27, 2014 7:43 PM

I think it has to d with impersonations. Joan Crawford is easy to impersonate, Barbara Stanwyck is not. That's why gay men like Joan and lesbians like Barbara.

by Anonymousreply 92June 27, 2014 7:51 PM

Man up, brah

by Anonymousreply 93July 6, 2014 6:49 PM

Because in terms of both connectivity and relative anatomical volumes within the brain, we are much closer to straight women than straight men. That explains our relating to him. Idolatry is another matter and may well be an artifact of gay invisibility in the past; seeing a certain type of woman in film, literature, etc. go through travails similar to theirs was cathartic and gave a sense of power through representation, albeit indirect.

by Anonymousreply 94July 6, 2014 6:58 PM

because they are all mama´s boy

by Anonymousreply 95July 6, 2014 7:03 PM

A secret side of most gays is that they want to be women for a few days each week.

by Anonymousreply 96July 6, 2014 7:15 PM

I can't answer that, but I know if I am at a party or some kind of function, and there is one gay man there, he and I (SW) will find each other and will have a great time together and become friends. I am strong, feminine, sociable and arty.

by Anonymousreply 97July 6, 2014 7:15 PM

relating to him=relating to them*

by Anonymousreply 98July 6, 2014 7:32 PM

"Because in terms of both connectivity and relative anatomical volumes within the brain, we are much closer to straight women than straight men."

Not true

by Anonymousreply 99July 6, 2014 8:30 PM

r94, you might be closer to being a straight woman than a straight man, but that is only you. You don't speak for the totality of gay men.

by Anonymousreply 100July 6, 2014 11:40 PM

Only the feminine types do.

by Anonymousreply 101July 11, 2014 1:36 PM

read this

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 102July 11, 2014 1:39 PM

[quote]Why Do Gay Men Seem To Idolize And Relate To Women?

Because they get the men we want.

by Anonymousreply 103July 11, 2014 2:10 PM

"Because they get the men we want."

Yeah, Bette Midler is really getting the men we want!

by Anonymousreply 104July 11, 2014 2:50 PM

d

by Anonymousreply 105August 2, 2014 4:39 PM

Ha

by Anonymousreply 106August 4, 2014 10:34 PM

openly gay dudes tend to latch onto the feminine obsession of gay male culture. it needs to stop.

by Anonymousreply 107September 13, 2014 2:31 PM

nope, gay men are closer to straight men than any women in my opinion and i am straight. we both are visual, go after sex and are not complicating but simpler in solving problems.

so for any gay men who says they can relate to straight women more is a bunch of bullshit. A lesbian can relate more to straight women than the most feminine gay or tranny

by Anonymousreply 108November 10, 2014 1:32 AM

r

by Anonymousreply 109November 30, 2014 3:25 PM

h

by Anonymousreply 110January 10, 2015 5:46 PM

Women are gross in general. Straight ones (some) are great. But not the pussy munchers. Sorry but that is just disgusting.

by Anonymousreply 111January 10, 2015 5:52 PM

Not remotely disgusting as those shit eating faggots. See how that works, r111? No go kill yourself.

by Anonymousreply 112January 10, 2015 8:33 PM

You mean "gay icons" like Judy Garland, Barbra Streisand, Auntie Mame, Divine, Susan Hayweird etc???

Because of the drama factor!

Drama is life. Life is drama. The world's a stage!

by Anonymousreply 113January 10, 2015 8:37 PM

What's GROSS is faggots licking assholes pretending their cunts. It's where you SHIT from. Now they be doing that in porn and makes my dick limp. One time I threw a bottle of Jack Daniels at the TV screen when the ass licking began and busted it.

I fucken hate watching that shit.

by Anonymousreply 114January 11, 2015 8:24 PM

I just can't find a guy who relates to or idolizes women in this way attractive. It really undermines their masculinity. There is a reason most guys are not like this.

by Anonymousreply 115January 30, 2015 2:13 AM

Oh lord R3 nailed it the first time and you Mos won't stop gabbing about it.

by Anonymousreply 116January 30, 2015 2:23 AM

Shut up r114

by Anonymousreply 117January 31, 2015 1:40 PM

Only feminine gay men relate to women

by Anonymousreply 118January 31, 2015 6:50 PM

lack of masculine role models and self-segregation from normal dudes

by Anonymousreply 119March 5, 2015 9:54 PM

I don't idolize women. They scare me.

by Anonymousreply 120March 5, 2015 10:03 PM

[quote]No, the Divas aren't nice, they're overwhelming personalities, ones who combine femininity with *power*. Feminine personalities need strong role models, too.

I think this is it. I'm fascinated by complex, assertive women because of their mix of the feminine and masculine. And like R21 says, I can "love" these kinds of women because I don't view them as just sexual objects.

by Anonymousreply 121March 5, 2015 10:13 PM

I don't idolize...but in HS in the 90s, straight guys were not safe. So, my friends were girls back then...and I just stuck with that pattern, mostly. Now, things might be different for other people - but im not gonna hang out w/ some 30-something married straight guy bc what exactly will we have in common? And, people will talk...his wife, sure. I get along better w/ my brothers wife than he does! And, only he gets along better w/ my BF cuz they both are into the same sports teams (snooze) and are in the same career field.

by Anonymousreply 122March 5, 2015 10:21 PM

R122 It's refreshing to hear a response like yours because so many guys on here want to pretend they are "bros" and only hang out with straight guys.

I don't like heterosexual men's manners, never did, and now my opinion of them is near zero.

I don't have an answer as to why I've become a fan of Lady Gaga, Madonna, Shania Twain, Rosie O'Donnell etc. I have no idea why.

by Anonymousreply 123March 5, 2015 10:38 PM

Hmmmm

by Anonymousreply 124February 20, 2017 5:48 AM

The nasty gay men who hate women and are threatened do so becomes the females in their families are wall flower trash. They freak with envy when out in the world and exposed to see beauties who have it all. Infuriated. They're the first freaks to target gorgeous, charismatic women who board airlners. Hot girls know this type of queen. Genetics are a crap shoot. Come on people, we have stories if you're in first class, they seethe over the charismatic beauty all the wealthy guys are falling all over. Quebec City to Newark NJ has ranked up the biggest, envious queen. Hope he freezes in a lake that United Airlines on take off End his misery over Frozen Quebec. Poor humiliated pilot has to side with this nelly queen while hanging head in shame. Any one know this foggy flight attendant who flutters unabashedly around the hot Quebec guys?January 6th 2015. Air Canada complain and ordered him fired. Anyone know?

by Anonymousreply 125February 20, 2017 9:46 AM

Why do so many people try to make unhinged generalizations on message boards in order to bait responses.

Just a sociological question.

by Anonymousreply 126February 20, 2017 11:57 AM

As a teen we thought we were Judy Garland!

by Anonymousreply 127February 20, 2017 12:27 PM

Femme bottoms idolise divas, OP. The rest like the same things ordinary men do.

by Anonymousreply 128February 20, 2017 1:54 PM

r125 Please excuse this poor soul. They were just released yesterday and have not been acclimated back into society.

by Anonymousreply 129February 20, 2017 2:10 PM

It's interesting how it irks society that SOME gay men idolize and identity with females

by Anonymousreply 130February 20, 2017 4:35 PM

Some gay men idolize a certain type of women, namely women who "fabricate" their femininity, ie make-up, hair, "style", etc. They're not into natural women, it's the artificial "femininity" (which isn't very feminine) that interests them.

by Anonymousreply 131February 20, 2017 5:01 PM

No r108 the lesbians I've met at work, on crews in film/tv, relate more to the straight guys. At least they both want to cruise women. They seem to relate least to straight women because they look at them as sex objects that are out the their reach. And that pisses them off. You don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

by Anonymousreply 132February 20, 2017 5:10 PM

I don't know any lesbians who "cruise" women the way straight men do, and they usually aren't attracted to the same type of women as straight men either. Most lesbians I know have no problem getting along with straight women.

by Anonymousreply 133February 21, 2017 12:50 AM

Who bumped this thread? It's older than dirt. And BTW, R132, YOU don't know what the fuck YOU'RE talking about. Instead of making a pronouncement about who lesbians "relate to" (as if you're a mind-reader), why don't you ask us? We're right here on DL, just like you.

by Anonymousreply 134February 21, 2017 1:55 AM

True

by Anonymousreply 135February 21, 2017 3:13 AM

Whoever said the only male role models for gays are Adam Lambert and Chris Colfer... bitch where u from? What year, what you know about me?

by Anonymousreply 136February 21, 2017 3:21 AM

[quote]Yeah, Bette Midler is really getting the men we want!

My boyfriend and I saw Bette Midler in concert recently.

by Anonymousreply 137February 21, 2017 3:26 AM

At least on DL, I noticed there is a tendency for gay men here to gravitate toward that which is feminine or nonmasculine. Gay guys here tend to insult each other in effeminate ways or ways that are highly atypical of men. For instance, why the obsession with caftans? Why call other men by female pronouns or the c-word? Why do so many here automatical imply another man, especially gay male, is unmanly or not fully male? Also, it seems like there is an unusual fascination with what women wear or look here, from a critical standpoint.

by Anonymousreply 138February 21, 2017 11:15 AM

A recent article on Susan Sarandon brought home to me how men rarely identity with women. She noted that women's movies are more risky to make than men's movie because men rarely want to or will identity with female characters. In contrast, women are taught to identify with and empathize with male characters and perspective. Maleness is the default in this world. One time, I was out with a group of straight and gay male friends. He asked the group which character on Sex and the City they identified. Only the gay ones were even willing to consider the questions, and even the masculine gay guys were like "no way, Im a dude, I don't identify with any of them." The straight guys thought it was the dumbest question and notion to consider. Identifying with women is strictly forbidden for most men.

by Anonymousreply 139March 3, 2017 2:49 PM

Familiarity breeds contempt. They didn't know what Eva Braun was really like.

by Anonymousreply 140March 3, 2017 2:55 PM

Huh?

by Anonymousreply 141March 3, 2017 3:20 PM

Hmmmm

by Anonymousreply 142September 2, 2017 2:25 AM

Well things were different years ago.

Some of the biggest films had females as their protagonists.

People would have considered them no riskier to make than other films with male leads.

by Anonymousreply 143September 2, 2017 3:10 AM

But we don't relate to women, certainly not more than to other gay men.

Some of you act like all your friends are straight women and/or men. Why would you do that? The only people in my social circle are other gay men. I enjoy the women I work with, but I don't seek women out as friends. I would never say I relate to them more than another gay guy.

by Anonymousreply 144September 2, 2017 3:12 AM

It’s one of the big reasons other men avoid and dislike gay men.

by Anonymousreply 145November 26, 2017 5:18 PM

I think it's because as a kid you don't relate to boys so you don't relate as much to male role models, if at all. And there are few gay role models and less going back five and ten and fifty years. I agree that yes, when you become independent and out, you start relating more to gay men and gay role models and that's why being out is important.

by Anonymousreply 146November 26, 2017 7:25 PM

A lot of gay men suffer From alienation from mainstream males.

by Anonymousreply 147January 22, 2018 10:12 PM

What is with all these “why do gay men” posts?

by Anonymousreply 148January 22, 2018 10:39 PM

ANdzzz

by Anonymousreply 149January 22, 2018 11:57 PM

This thread says so much about the OP.

by Anonymousreply 150January 23, 2018 12:19 AM

Why do asshole bigots exist?

Just a philosophical question.

by Anonymousreply 151January 23, 2018 12:21 AM

Interesting

by Anonymousreply 152January 23, 2018 12:37 AM

Speak the truth r40, well said.

by Anonymousreply 153January 23, 2018 12:58 AM

^ And no, it seriously does not matter that it's an old comment.

by Anonymousreply 154January 23, 2018 1:02 AM

It’s still a relevant topic.

by Anonymousreply 155January 23, 2018 1:01 PM

Because they want to BE women?

by Anonymousreply 156January 23, 2018 1:21 PM

Hhgf

by Anonymousreply 157January 24, 2018 2:18 AM

r4 I seen lesbians I've worked with do this. They don't want the cock, but they want to be one of the boys, so they talk as much shit about women as the guys do. I have to say it does work, the guys consider do them part of the club.

by Anonymousreply 158January 24, 2018 2:23 AM

The only women I could ever relate to were the tomboys, the androgynes, and the lesbians. Never the basics.

by Anonymousreply 159January 24, 2018 3:24 AM

When we were a child all the boys in school seemed to talk only about udders and stink-holes but we talked about Judy Garland and Bette Davis.

by Anonymousreply 160January 24, 2018 9:59 AM

HUh dude?

by Anonymousreply 161January 25, 2018 11:07 AM

R50 no, homophobia is not rooted in mysogeny. Feminine men are not "reviled" by homophobes because of feminine characteristics per se. It's femininity on a man which is seen as unfitting. The same as butch women are "reviled" not because they hate masculine characteristics per se, but because they are displayed on a woman, which is unfitting/out of place (in the eyes of the homophobes).

by Anonymousreply 162January 25, 2018 2:59 PM

True, but femininity in men is viewed as much worse than masculinity in women.

by Anonymousreply 163January 26, 2018 2:22 PM

I was just talking about this with a group of straight male friends. They said they were cool with gay guys, but often find it hard to bond with a lot of gay guys because gay guys tend to be interested in “female stuff.” One guy asked why are gay guys also singing songs “by females” and watching “chick flicks/tv shows.” He says that is what makes most guys uncomfortable or feeling that they can’t relate to gay guys.

I have noticed that gay guys tend to relate to women in a way no other guys do. For instance, I notice a lot of the gifs/emoticons here are of women being melodramatic or expressive, whereas usually guys almost exclusively choose male gifs to represent their feelings or sentiments. It’s interesting.

by Anonymousreply 164March 21, 2018 1:59 PM

[quote]I have noticed that gay guys tend to relate to women in a way no other guys do. For instance, I notice a lot of the gifs/emoticons here are of women being melodramatic or expressive, whereas usually guys almost exclusively choose male gifs to represent their feelings or sentiments. It’s interesting.

If you were to include the word "some" when describing gay guys, you might be excused for making an absurd generality.

You may want (or not) to consider that the overly masculine mannerisms some straight (and gay) guys adopt are merely another articulation of a form of drag.

Equating gay men to women has been and continues to be a way to stigmatize homosexuality and affirm that gay men are not truly men. Additionally, the equation in a society which sees being feminine as being weak ratifies a particular societal hierarchy.

Finally, the entire postulate which underlines the broader "I'm not one of those gays" by pretending ignorance often reflects an inability to reconcile one's homosexuality with one's self-image - you may (or may not) want to think about what that.

or tl;dr - and forget about it.

by Anonymousreply 165March 21, 2018 4:01 PM

Certainly men tend to think of femininity and women as inferior, or at least not as strong or powerful as men and masculinity. Because a lot of openly gay men are feminine and gay sex involves at least one male being receptive/passive, homosexuality is especially scorned and stigmatized.

by Anonymousreply 166March 21, 2018 4:22 PM

I have a Gay male friend whose music choice seems like 80 percent female. Other guys seem baffled that he is so fixated on female singers and music, but he likes what he likes. I must say overall he seems to be rather fem and unconventional

by Anonymousreply 167April 23, 2018 2:08 PM

IT probably is related to the fact that fem boys and men and older gay men were/are rejected by their male peers, and this rejection causes them to disassociate with mainstream males and identify with females. Socialization is huge.

by Anonymousreply 168April 23, 2018 2:52 PM

I'm a gay male who does not idolize women. I enjoy music (from more singers than performers) from both men and women. I'm not particularly fond of pop culture. I've always enjoyed rock music just as much as pop and dance music.

I'm somewhat feminine and refined but with no desire to be female or to emulate them. I enjoy being a man. I'll never be the kind of homosexual man who resorts to being a woman's personal assistant. Sometimes, I think people treat me as a caricature because I'm only 5'9" and 140 pounds and dress rather well. They unjustly associate my size and sense of style with women yet most women are not truly stylish. Women often dress for how they feel, not how they look. Men are generally more visual.

I'd like to think I have a healthy balance of femininity and masculinity. Of course, my tastes have not made me too popular amongst certain gay men but I have no interest in conforming to their ways.

by Anonymousreply 169April 23, 2018 4:32 PM

R169, do you have a lot of straight male friends?

by Anonymousreply 170April 23, 2018 5:07 PM

No, R170, not at all. I've only had so far one straight male friend in my adult life.

by Anonymousreply 171April 24, 2018 1:00 AM

I do.

by Anonymousreply 172April 26, 2018 2:43 PM

Great post! r69

by Anonymousreply 173April 26, 2018 4:11 PM

Bump

by Anonymousreply 174June 8, 2018 2:43 PM

R 76 you became straight after that experience or what ? You where gay and out that’s why I don’t understand why you had sex with that woman . What happened after that ?

by Anonymousreply 175June 8, 2018 4:33 PM

IMO, there is no such thing as "feminine" and "masculine." There are people who want to look pretty/beautiful and act weak and then there are people who want to look tough/rugged and act strong.

Frankly, I don't like anyone who is overly concerned with looking pretty, and I hate people who pretend to be weak. I have no idea why straight men find that attractive in a woman. Perhaps that helps the men out when they're trying to act strong.

The bottom line is that both of these roles are an act. No one is emotionally/physically strong all the time, and few able-bodied adults are truly weak. And there are a dearth of naturally beautiful men or women (see cosmetics, plastic surgery, steroids, etc.).

Just be who you are. That's good enough.

by Anonymousreply 176June 8, 2018 4:59 PM

I have issues with women and have never idolized one. Having said that, I can see how many gay men would idolize the "diva" for being powerful and confident. The persona you may have to take on to have the courage to not be afraid of owning your sexuality. It doesn't work that way for me, but I can understand it. I don't think I've ever idolized a gay man either.

by Anonymousreply 177June 8, 2018 5:04 PM

You can look pretty and be strong

by Anonymousreply 178June 9, 2018 12:01 PM

Sisters idolize Babs, Judy and Liza because they want to BECOME Babs, Judy and Liza!

by Anonymousreply 179June 9, 2018 1:57 PM

Fem guys often are jealous of women

by Anonymousreply 180June 9, 2018 3:25 PM

R178, if you're spending a substantial part of your day/thoughts trying to look pretty, you're not strong.

by Anonymousreply 181June 9, 2018 3:31 PM

Most gay men love (adore) their mother, so a woman always is a "little part" of a mother....

by Anonymousreply 182June 10, 2018 9:32 AM

I think a lot of gay men fear or resent mainstream men, partly because mainstream men are their main oppressors and partly because a lot of gay men have feminine traits.

by Anonymousreply 183June 10, 2018 10:53 AM

R8 - gay-hater.

by Anonymousreply 184June 10, 2018 11:02 AM

Leona Helmsley was one of our role models!

by Anonymousreply 185June 10, 2018 2:58 PM

Not mine

by Anonymousreply 186June 10, 2018 3:05 PM

Not mine Either. Why do so many fem guys try to portray their lifestyle and preferences as indicative of gay men in general? It’s very disrespectful of masculine dudes, and inaccurate.

by Anonymousreply 187August 29, 2018 12:13 PM

Fascinating discussion

by Anonymousreply 188February 11, 2019 11:28 PM

[quote] It's an eldergay thing

Lmao this is very wrong. I'm 27 and most of my gay friend love saying things like "SLAY queen" (I also say it)

Gay millennials love women like Hillary and Pelosi.

by Anonymousreply 189February 11, 2019 11:32 PM

I will guarantee you I can find a number of other 27 year olds who (a) don't have a group of "gay" friends, but hang in a group that's mixed straight and gay, (b) would only use the phrase "slay queen" as a joke, to mock someone's stereotype of what gays were about and (b) have no love for Hillary.

One of the odder tropes of DL is the notion that gays are somehow monolithic, that we all like the same things, only have gay friends, are only interested in "gay" things.

While there are many gays who conform to that stereotype, there are also many who do not.

by Anonymousreply 190February 11, 2019 11:44 PM

r187 Me neither.

by Anonymousreply 191February 11, 2019 11:45 PM

The notion that gay men have nothing in common with straight men is puzzling too. Surely even the femmes realize that not every gay guy was a little show tunes singing, sports-hating child.

Or do you?

by Anonymousreply 192February 11, 2019 11:51 PM

Why is everyone on this thread playing into stereotypes? Some gay men idolize women, some don't. Man it is like everyone of you think all gay men act the same all the time. Newsflash, they don't.

by Anonymousreply 193February 12, 2019 1:51 AM

We want to be them.

by Anonymousreply 194February 12, 2019 2:29 AM

Nope, R194. Take that self-loathing shit out of here.

by Anonymousreply 195February 12, 2019 2:56 AM

A lack of childhood and adolescent identification and socialization with male peers causing lifelong injury to male-male peer bonds.

by Anonymousreply 196February 12, 2019 12:22 PM

They buffer us from toxic masculinity.

by Anonymousreply 197February 12, 2019 1:56 PM

How so?

by Anonymousreply 198February 12, 2019 1:57 PM

Bullshit, r3.

Lots of gay men simply identify with women more than men and share their interests. They have since time immemorial.

Most cultures across the globe have documented sissies and the effeminacy of homosexuals for thousands of years.

It doesn’t stop with “eldergays” or the freedom to “idolize male celebrities,” which pagan cultures like the Greeks, Romans and Aztecs had, too.

It’s a primal identification or preference to “be like” or relate to women. A desire to do what they do because they like it more, or they’re intimidated by traditional “masculine” pursuits.

R3 is probably more effeminate than most men in ways that our culture defines it — he’s just not honest or self-aware.

by Anonymousreply 199February 12, 2019 2:19 PM

[Quote]As the gay culture continues to morph, the stereotypes that the OP talks of will disappear.

You’re really fooling yourself.

Pre-Christian cultures tolerated homosexuality and even celebrated it. They worshipped gay gods like Antinous, Ganymedes or Xochipilli. Greek, Roman and Egyptian gods were bisexual. They made openly gay people kings and emperors, such as Hadrian or Elagabulous. Homosexuality wasn’t a sin condemned by religion or law.

So they were much more positive and supportive than America or Modern Europe has ever been.

And yet, they still had documented sissies and trannies taking on female dress, traits and identities more than male.

The hijras of India, the Corybantes and Cybele revelers of Greece and Rome, the eunuch priesthoods of Mesopotamia; the tranny priesthood of Native American cultures, from North American shamen to Meso-American tranny temple priests.

All of this occurred in ancient cultures where it was OK to be Masc4Masc.

So quit projecting your narrow prejudices on to a human nature you don’t control. Just admit you personally disdain effeminate men because that’s not what you’re attracted to.

There have always been effeminate men who idolize women and there always will be, because there are qualities about women that are fundamentally different from qualities in men and you can’t extract them from himan nature.

by Anonymousreply 200February 12, 2019 3:11 PM

Someone is angry AF that flounce-culture is no longer in fashion

by Anonymousreply 201February 12, 2019 3:29 PM

It's all about the Brain Barrier.

Straight men and lesbians have a wall between their right brain and their left brain that keeps their right brain emotional feelings and their left brain logical thoughts separate. Their thoughts and feelings are like two separate pistons that don't cross each other's paths. People whose brains work like this are sexually attracted to the female form.

Gay men and women have no brain barrier between their right and left brains. Their thoughts and feelings mix and mingle freely. What they feel is how they think. People whose brains work like this are attracted to the male form.

Gay men idolize women because we understand them better than we understand straight men.

by Anonymousreply 202February 12, 2019 4:12 PM

^ That's not true at all

by Anonymousreply 203February 12, 2019 4:14 PM

We all want the D, OP.

by Anonymousreply 204February 12, 2019 4:54 PM

r204, gay men don't have the same views on sex and dating as women. Far from it.

by Anonymousreply 205February 12, 2019 4:55 PM

That is because women date to find husbands and gay men date to get laid, R204. Our brains work the same way but our bodies send our brains different messages.

by Anonymousreply 206February 12, 2019 4:58 PM

R199: you're responding to a post that was written over 7 years ago.

by Anonymousreply 207February 12, 2019 5:08 PM

Women are fabulous. And that's all I have to say.

by Anonymousreply 208February 12, 2019 7:39 PM

Oh please, r49.

Young or not, women have always been the slight majority of living humans.

You were stupid because you thought "minority" meant the same as "persecuted." Just let go!

by Anonymousreply 209February 12, 2019 9:36 PM

I'm eazshy to impersshonate?

by Anonymousreply 210February 12, 2019 9:56 PM

r111 is mean and ignorant of lesbians.

by Anonymousreply 211February 12, 2019 10:00 PM

I have no idea what you wrote, r125.

But I hope you get the long-term, custodial psychiatric care you need -- in your native language.

by Anonymousreply 212February 12, 2019 10:07 PM

Funny you should say that, r128.

I've known several drag queens who were aggressive tops and many nellie gays who were aggressive, exclusive tops.

The femme = bottom correlation doesn't match up half the time.

by Anonymousreply 213February 12, 2019 10:08 PM

It matches much more than half the time. Exceptions don’t vitiate the rule

by Anonymousreply 214February 12, 2019 10:10 PM

There's only one woman, or any human being for that matter, who I've idolised. I admit to being rather embarrassed about it, not because of who she is but because I'm a middle aged man who should have grown past such things by now.

by Anonymousreply 215February 12, 2019 10:20 PM

#bottomproblems

by Anonymousreply 216February 12, 2019 10:26 PM

[quote]not every gay guy was a little show tunes singing, sports-hating child.

Get your Datalounge terminology correct, r192.

It's "Glee-watching fairy."

by Anonymousreply 217February 12, 2019 10:29 PM

r202, can you point to any research about "the Brain Barrier?"

by Anonymousreply 218February 12, 2019 10:32 PM

That doesn't matter unless the poster is dead, r207.

Even then, the date is irrelevant.

by Anonymousreply 219February 12, 2019 10:34 PM

No, r214.

You're not very experienced with men in bed.

by Anonymousreply 220February 12, 2019 10:34 PM

You would think by this point gay men would start idolizing their own, but no, they still keep worshiping women and their "divas". It's so tired.

by Anonymousreply 221February 12, 2019 10:37 PM

This is Datalounge R217

Glee was part of most DLers middle age

by Anonymousreply 222February 12, 2019 10:39 PM

You meant old age

by Anonymousreply 223February 12, 2019 10:45 PM

r201 is embarrassed AF that she was so ignorant about worldwide, human history and culture.

You have to be a real self-righteous navel-gazer to think that men idolizing women started with Hollywood or the closet.

There have always been men who idolize women and women who've idolized men. Pop culture didn't start or cause it. Pop culture just maximizes it.

by Anonymousreply 224February 12, 2019 10:46 PM

I am R201 and if someone can translate R224 into English, that would be really awesome.

by Anonymousreply 225February 12, 2019 10:51 PM

I know the thread is old, but surely the answer is that a lot of women can talk about their feelings and show them, therefore it makes them easier to empathise with. If you're in the closet, that's what you want in a friend.

It's wrong, but my instinct if I see a man crying, is to move away, because he might be crazy...

by Anonymousreply 226February 12, 2019 11:01 PM

As a child we always imitated and copied our mother.

by Anonymousreply 227February 13, 2019 1:57 PM

Go over to this thread and ask.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 228February 13, 2019 2:39 PM

Bump

by Anonymousreply 229February 18, 2019 11:24 PM

Because they want to be women

by Anonymousreply 230February 18, 2019 11:29 PM

Sadly too many of them do

by Anonymousreply 231February 18, 2019 11:41 PM

I was just thinking about how gays worship Kathy Griffin and hate andy Cohen even though they are basically the same person

by Anonymousreply 232February 19, 2019 1:03 AM

Not most R230

But here on DL there are a number of posters who either want to be sassy black women from the projects, sassy truckstop waitresses from the Depression or sassy WASP country club matrons from the 50s./

by Anonymousreply 233February 19, 2019 1:11 AM

R232 Princess Andy is a bore. Kathy is a cunty mess.

by Anonymousreply 234February 19, 2019 1:28 AM

Wrong. We only relate to women with PIZZAZZ!

by Anonymousreply 235February 19, 2019 4:25 AM

Homosexuality is as old as human sexuality itself, but trans as we know it today is relatively recent and borne entirely of stereotypes rooted in ignorance, sexism, and homophobia.

by Anonymousreply 236February 19, 2019 4:34 AM

It’s so embarrassing

by Anonymousreply 237February 20, 2019 1:12 AM

YOU idolize what you envy. Gay men love straight men and the privileges women get through them. White heterosexual women are the most privileged

by Anonymousreply 238February 20, 2019 3:37 PM
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