Why don't the Palestinians get any shit for refusing to acknowledge Israel's right to exist?
Along with many others I'm always calling Israel out on its shit, but hadn't realized until last week that most of the conflict between the two sides is because Israel is asking Palestine to simply acknowledge it as a nation.
At the U.N. last week, the Palestinian president said they will not recognize Israel. So, no wonder there's so much nasty shit going on. And of course Israel building it's tiresome little settlements doesn't help matters.
Israel deserves a lot of the scorn they get, but why doesn't the world body come down on Palestine for being so aggressive and not even wanting to acknowledge Israel, especially when it means they could be an officially recognized nation themselves?
I don't get it.
You don't get it because you probably know nothing about how modern Israel was created.
Op, stop infuriating the New Yorkers.
Because a lot of what is called 'Israel' is Palestinian land. They were moved off at gunpoint, and are now not inclined to call their own property 'Israel'.
Because the Palestinians are not in the position of power, OP. If they were, it would be different.
It is Israel that refuses to acknowledge that Palestine ever existed.
It is Israel that wants to exterminate the Palestinians and has the power to do it.
Israel is the invader and the occupier. It is not the victim.
They took their derbs?
OP, most people think that Israel shouldn't exist, although I'm not one of them. I wish that the Palestinians would acknowledge Israel's statehood, because as soon as they do, Israel will stop being so defensive, Palestine can become an officially recognized state, and both sides can live in peace.
OP, I think one reason that Palestine gets somewhat of a break in this regard - and your question is a very good one - is because many people can understand why many Palestinians would feel that Israel should not exist, that it was wrong for the country to be founded in the first place, and or that given what Israel has done to the Palestinians, one can well understand the vitriol that many Palestinians feel about the continued existence of the Israeli state.
Of course similar arguments exist for why so many Israelis worry about the creation of a Palestinian state, given the acts of terror inflicted on Israel by Palestinians.
Atrocities on both sides.
Fucked. Now and with no end in sight.
And very few heros anywhere.
Then of course there are a few people making a lot of money and making political hay from continued strife and hostility, arms, keeping people hating each other for absolutely no fucking reason, keeping divisions of land and culture based on what? Religious and ethnic divides that are obsolete and idiotic and have no reason to exist in the 21st century.
Who gives a shit what the Palestinians want? They're backward people who support terrorism. Israel's position should be that as soon as they educate and westernize themselves and stop the violence, we'll talk.
Er... Because it's their land..?
I am pretty sure if a race got genocided and relocated to the United States, there might be griping and racism (ex: Native Americans, etc) but I doubt it would come to blowing up women and children with rockets, especially this decade. Not saying that it's a clear cut issue, but that is something I don't understand.
It's disgusting on both sides and we are forced to pay attention to it because of the large and powerful Jewish lobby in the US and the politics of oil in the Middle East. It is was Catholics and Protestants hacking at each other on the southern African continent we would let them kill each other. Really, why DO we have to solve this problems for them? Yeah, I know, the US Jewish lobby and oil politics. On a smaller (but not much smaller) scale were the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland. Let 'em hate and kill to their hearts content. I won't do it, and I will not take sides. How can you?
Regardless R5, Israel isn't going anywhere. America made sure of that a long time ago.
"If it was"... sorry
R5 If so, what's stopping them?
The usual keyboard combatants are salivating, so this thread doesn't have long to li
The Israelis were forced off that land by the Romans and have every right to have it back.
Plus Israel only took the "extra" land once they were invaded. If the Arabs had won the first war would we bemoaning this situation?
It is the same as the US winning Texas from Mexico, should we give back Mexico???
R16, did you mean to ask "Should we give Texas back to Mexico?"
What I don't understand is all the Israel hatred.
India and Pakistan had division
Ireland had their divisions
Korea had division
But you don't see nearly a level of hatred for them that you do for Israel. What gives?
B/C r18 people are anti-Jewish. They forget that Jesus was Jewish.
Cant we all get along in the New Year?
Happy Rosh Hashanah to everyone regardless of your religion or beliefs...
"Plus Israel only took the "extra" land once they were invaded. If the Arabs had won the first war would we bemoaning this situation? It is the same as the US winning Texas from Mexico, should we give back Mexico???"
Last time I checked Germany, Italy and Japan lost the Second World War. They still have their prewar borders.
[quote]Last time I checked Germany, Italy and Japan lost the Second World War. They still have their prewar borders.
IIRC, Germany lost land to Poland after WWII. The new border was the Oder-Neisse line, which some Germans resented.
then give your land back to the native americans while youre at it
"What I don't understand is all the Israel hatred.
India and Pakistan had division
Ireland had their divisions
Korea had division
But you don't see nearly a level of hatred for them that you do for Israel. What gives?"
As Americans we feel responsible and alarmed for Israeli policy because we support Israel. As well we should. It's not about hatred for Israel, although of course you are right that there is some of that and that there is certainly a double standard that is applied against Israel by some who look the other way so easily against injustice perpetrated elsewhere in the world.
But there is also an issue of accountability. An issue of "not in my name." And, many Israeli and American Jews feel this ocncern more than anyone.
[quote]But you don't see nearly a level of hatred for them that you do for Israel. What gives?
What gives is that Israel a) refuses to accept that Palestine has an equally valid religious claim on holy sites within Jerusalem; b) continues to occupy Palestinian land well beyond the pre-1967 borders (and just this week announced that it was "annexing" more land); and c) built up a huge "security fence" (mostly inside of Palestine) to protect its occupied territory, and also to prevent Palestinians from easily entering Israel.
And no, I'm not anti-Semitic. I'm just a rational realist who accepts that both countries need to accept the other's right to exist, and that the right-wingers in both countries presently dictating foreign policy need to be ousted in favor of moderates who support a joint state (which btw a majority of the Israeli public does).
OP, If the Owajahoe Nation decided to re-claim your front lawn you'd have another perspective, surely.
R19, I'm not anti-Jewish at all.. I actually think jews are wonderful people.
However, I do not agree with Israel's politics. You don't HAVE to be a jew hater to disagree with their politics you know..
[quote]and just this week announced that it was "annexing" more land);
No, it announced that new construction was approved in Gilo. FYI: Gilo is a south Jerusalem neighborhood.
[quote]What gives is that Israel a) refuses to accept that Palestine has an equally valid religious claim on holy sites within Jerusalem
After Israel took Jerusalem in the Six-Day War, Dayan gave control of the Temple Mount to the Waqf, despite the fact that the Temple Mount is the holiest site in Judaism. It's hard to get any clearer that Israel has acknowledged Muslim religious rights to holy sites in Jerusalem. And that, mind you, was after the Jews had been blocked from praying at the Kotel for 19 years while Jordan occupied east Jerusalem.
Meanwhile, even though the Oslo Accords included an agreement that the Palestinians would allow Jewish access to holy sites in the West Bank, they have limited access and allowed desecration of those sites.
[quote]c) built up a huge "security fence" (mostly inside of Palestine) to protect its occupied territory, and also to prevent Palestinians from easily entering Israel.
Which was necessitated by the insanely destructive Second Intifada. Israel did not build that fence in 1948 or 1954 or 1967 or 1973. It was built to prevent Palestinians from blowing up buses and restaurants full of Israeli civilians.
The people who spout the "their land" nonsense are annoyingly ignorant. Why is it that people choose a magical point in time and declare that the people who occupied a land area at that particular moment are entitled to the land forever (their descendents that is). What about the people who were there before them or who came after them?
If you look at world history you see that control of territory has always been determined by power and conquest, not DNA. If we are to move past that toward a more civilized era, it seems that we should look to a more meaningful way to settle such disputes, such as supporting the groups who govern best and are friendliest to human rights and individual liberties. The blood/land thing seems awfully primitive and racist.
[quote] You don't get it because you probably know nothing about how modern Israel was created.
About the same way a modern Palestinian state will be created.
It's worth noting that Netanyahu is not just asking the Palestinian's to recognize Israel's right to exist (they already do this, in fact), but to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. From the Palestinian perspective, this is unacceptable because Israel's population is 20 percent Palestinian. Since the citizen status of Palestinian Israelis is constantly under question from the Israeli right wing, this is a real issue.
None of this trouble started until the Zionists starting driving the bus. Until then everyone were able to live peacefully with each other.
How about those who consistently defend Israel and engage in revisionist history when it comes to Arabs (whatever you want to call them) go first, OP?
Palestinians were made to pay for the crimes of Europe. This bullshit about "recognition" as they watch their land taken bit by bit is so typical of you guys, OP.
Actions speak louder than words, and the actions of the Israelis shows they don't recognize that Palestinians have rights.
R18, in the case of Ireland, we had politicians who openly supported the IRA. We also had genuinely honest brokering. The US wasn't threatening sanctions or to take aid or to punish one side.
Israel is the only issue where you have almost all of Congress up Israel's ass. Worse, they aren't only up Israel's ass, they subscribe to the insane, right wing rhetoric of Israel. Israel gets most of the foreign aid, and the aid that goes to Egypt and Jordan is directly tied to Israel. I'm sure AIPAC is currently demanding that Congress cut off Egypt's aid.
r32 what about Italy? I am sure there are non Catholics living in Italy.
[quote]It's worth noting that Netanyahu is not just asking the Palestinian's to recognize Israel's right to exist (they already do this, in fact), but to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. From the Palestinian perspective, this is unacceptable because Israel's population is 20 percent Palestinian.
So, if and when the state of Palestine is created as an Islamic state with laws based on Sharia(please check the Hamas and PLO charters), does that mean the Palestinian Christians won't be considered Palestinian citizens?
And do you have any comment on recent Palestinian statements that Jews would not be allowed to live in Palestine?
Israeli Arabs have full legal rights. They matriculate at Israeli universities, they are licensed physicians and lawyers, they hold seats in the Knesset, they sit as judges on the high court.
[quote]None of this trouble started until the Zionists starting driving the bus. Until then everyone were able to live peacefully with each other.
Then how do you explain the Safed massacre of 1834?
How do you explain the expulsion of Jews from Hebron in the 1920s? Jews were ethnically cleansed from a city where they had lived for millenia.
So much ignorance here,
[quoye]It is Israel that refuses to acknowledge that Palestine ever existed.
Palestine indeed never existed. It was never the name of a state. It was an ancient name of a geographical area.
The Palestinians never acknowledged Israel and don't now because they don't intend to end the conflict after they get a state. Acknowledging Israel as a Jewish state means they have no demands anymore and the conflict is over. That's the reason they don't want to commit to that.
Palestinians have never been held accountable by the world for what they do or don't do and should. They have never been held accountable for slaughtering 1500 Israelis and wounding 10's of thousands more in the past 15 years. They have never been held accountable for attacking Israeli citizens with thousands of rockets for almost a decade. They aren't held accountable for the antisemitic incitement against Israel and Jews in it's schools and media. They aren't accountable for rejecting offer after offer. They aren't held accountable for always publishing and distributing maps with Israel non existent on them, including last week at the UN while addressing the world to get recognition themselves.
And people wonder why there's no peace yet...
Amen r38 tell it like it is!
I do find it strange that muslims are so fiercely against Israel being a jewish state when there are many many muslim states. Also Israel is the location of jews and christians holy sites. Muslims already have Mecca (a city only muslims can enter)but seem to want to claim Jerusalem as well.
Because Israel is stealing land that doesn't belong to Israel and infuriating the region by building illegal settlements in the West Bank.
You'd be pretty pissed too if your land was being stolen from you right before your eyes.
r41 what about Spain and Mexico????
r41, it's not "their land"
Then stop bringing up the Native Americans to justify what is done to the Palestinians when you keep bringing up the Jews were there a long time ago! Hypocrites. Why are Jews the only ones allowed to stake claim to land based on *ancient* history and God as a fucking real estate agent?
Israel is full of shit and it doesn't matter what you call that shithole because you cannot prove who does or doesn't belong there just because some asshole who just got off a plane from Russia claims to be Jewish. Israel has become an incredibly stupid and arrogant country. I laugh at the idiots who think it will be the Palestinians who will destroy it. The Palestinians were the ones who respected that land. Now, you've got Israelis bulldozing thousand year old olive trees and poisoning the land over hate.
I expect the usual Pro-Israeli propagandists to lie, but I expect real Americans to finally educate themselves. They've been fed lies for far too long. Israel as this bastion of democracy is an absolute lie. They attempt to paint this rosy picture of a country where Muslims, Christians and Jews all have rights. Hell, they don't even treat all the Jews equally. The Ethiopians are treated like absolute shit.
Then they think they're making a point when they deflect and bring up S. Arabia. Saudi fucking Arabia doesn't claim to be some democracy. Israel is a theocracy. Try and get a housing permit as an Israeli citizen who isn't Jewish. The state of Israel is all about pr.
When even Tom Friedman says Israel is destroying itself because of the AIPAC mentality, wake the fuck up.
The world disagrees with you, R43.
[quote]Then stop bringing up the Native Americans to justify what is done to the Palestinians...
R44 you are a little confused.
r44 you come across as a loony foaming-at-the-mouth anti-western stereotype.
Personally I'd like to see Israel kick out all the Islamics and use their military to seize enough territory to triple their size. If nothing else, it would piss off the nutcases like you.
Fuck Palestine. And fuck Islamic Arabs in general.
And no, it's not their damn land. If Israel fought for it and won, too bad.
Nobody gives shit to Americans for screwing over Natives, but everyone picks on Israel because y'all are a bunch of anti-Semites, admit it.
I don't think it's that they're anti-semites, it's that they are the types who always side with the most backward societies against the most successful ones. In any conflict, they will support the most culturally dysfunctional group.
R47 is an apologist for Israel's land theft.
r44 Is it the same Tom Friedman who jizzed in his pants about Arab Spring and how wonderful it is?
moron at r49, read r30.
R48 = Elitist Klansman
[quote]Last time I checked Germany, Italy and Japan lost the Second World War. They still have their prewar borders.
Much of what is now western Poland used to be the eastern part of Germany, until the territory was given to Poland as reparations for WW2. The Kaliningrad Oblast in Russia was also part of Germany (Königsberg).
Actually r52 I don't think all such posters are necessarily antisemites. I think they base their views on the twisted media and a lot of disinformation and revisionist history that's everywhere.
Israel bitches because that the Palestinians say that Israel has no right to exist.
Yet Israel is esentially saying the same thing by stealing Palestinian land. Israel is taking away Palestinian homeland. Israel is trying to steal the Palestinians out of existence.
r52, is that all you have? "elitist"? You're essentially admitting that r48 is correct.
[quote]Yet Israel is esentially saying the same thing by stealing Palestinian land. Israel is taking away Palestinian homeland. Israel is trying to steal the Palestinians out of existence.
So if you repeat that lie enough, you think people will believe it?
r57 unfortunately they do. Repeat a lie enough times and people will believe anything.
R57. Denying it doesn't take away the truth of what's happening in the West Bank.
The Arab world had many Jews living in it -- large, rooted and vibrant communities particularly in Algeria/Tunisia. All were expelled after 1948/1967. Those people had no say in the establishment of Israel, but were punished anyway.
Israel can be hoggish and opportunistic, but Arabs/Muslims have a history of not tolerating religious diversity. Iraq's Christians have been routed and Syria's Christians are worried they are next.
Israel's Arabs have problems, no doubt, but non-Muslims in Arab countries have worse ones.
r59 actually things in the west bank have never been better.
r60 why go so far? Ask the knowledgeable members here if they know what happened to the Christians of Bethlehem in the past 10 years! You know, the ones that were 80% of that town for the past 2000 years. You know how many are left there after the PA took over?
R61. For whom? Not the Palestinians.
R62. Two wrongs don't make a right. The West Bank is still Palestinian land--not Israel's.
r64, read r30
The creation of Israel went a long way to completing Hitler's desire to rid Europe of the Jews.
The Jew/Native American comparison is bull unless the US starts treating Israel in the same manner it does the Native American reservations.
r66 you do realize there were jews on that land all along, sometimes in the tens of thousands, sometimes in the hundreds of thousands, continuously for the past 3500 years, don't you? People keep talking about the "indigenous" Palestinians but completely ignore that fact. The history of that region is long and much more complicated than some posters here realize.
R65. The land does not belong to Israel simply because the magic fairy in the sky said so. The Palestinians have been there as long if not longer than the Jews. And the West Bank has been designated for Palestine--not Israel.
And yes, we've see the response by r30; you don't have to keep posting it.
Israel knows it's enemy much better than the rest of the international community. The Palestinians will continue to refuse to acknowledge Israel as a sovereign state. Knowing that, Israel can continue to build settlements on land that will never return to the Palestinians because the Palestinians refuse to budge. Why wait for never to happen? So they build.
Oh and the Turks owned The Palestine for 400 years. Palestine is just a geographical area, like New England. There never was Palestinian state. In my opinion the Jordanians and the Egyptians never really paid for their 1948 actions in this whole mess.
R67 your point is irrelevant with regard to my comment.
r70 it's very relevant. The state of Israel didn't start with the UN declaration. That's my point. The occupation of the west bank and Gaza happened as a result of yet another war declared by the surrounding Arab states. You can't take an arbitrary point in time concerning this conflict and ignore the larger context of history, events and circumstances.
I wish we could relocate everyone from the area, and the not let anyone settle there. I call it the "I'll turn this car around if the two of you can't behave" solution.
The West Bank has a problem like the US has. An elite rules the roost, hiving off money from five-star hotels, real estate, and -- even more than the US -- protection rackets. The rest of the place is uneducated and poor. Israel is one source of the West Bank's problems, but not the only one.
"Palestine" has two governments. One headed by Abbas, one by Hamas. They hate and distrust each other and sometimes murder one another. They need to straighten that situation out before statehood is granted.
R71, you need to learn the difference between states and nations vs tribes. The presence of a tribe does not make a place a state or nation. The Israelis were a fucking TRIBE, that's all.
It's interesting when people write that they don't understand the hatred. True, if you haven't lived in it, you tend not to see how insidious it is. I think this naivety is more common out west where anti-semitism didn't root and fester like it has in the east. Fascinating phenomenon, it defies all levels of intellect and class. I like to refer to the Strangelovian Effect where, given enough input, virtually all of them will pop up and invariably give away their true vilification. Especially when it's anonymous.
R30 For the past couple thousand years or so, "Possession is nine-tenths of the law" has more or less been expanded to: "and them that wrote about keeping stuff gets to keep stuff."
It's ridiculous and counter-productive to be so partisan about this question when there is fault on both sides. The fact of the matter is a huge proportion of Palestinians and Israelis would quite happily live alongside each other. There are influential fundamentalist elements on both sides, however, who disrupt any meaningful diplomatic progress and who want to see the region cleansed of the opposing culture. It doesn't help that children in both cultures grow up inculcated with a hatred for the other side.
The Executive Moderator in Charge of Making Threads Disappear must have the day off. Last chance to get that hatred and vitriol typed out, boys.
Get back in the oven, r78.
Well, I see the Internet Monitors of Zion decided to make an overt appearance in search of non-believers...
That's the spirit!
I'm not Jewish, but I find Israelis infinitely more admirable than Palestinians. That said, if they're so damned smart, why can't they figure out a way to live in peace with their neighbors?
Either Palestinians are intractable. or there's some other factor I'm not aware of.
Why the fuck was this thread bumped??!
This just goes to show that someone searched for this thread, and has an agenda to start trouble.
The Palestinians don't give a shit about gays either OP!
[quote]The land does not belong to Israel simply because the magic fairy in the sky said so.
Which is exactly why when the state of Israel was created, the UN tried to broker a very secular deal between Jews and Arabs so both sides would have a state. This was not like the Crusades with religious freaks just moving in and taking over.
The Jews said great, and agreed to a tiny sliver of land. the Arabs basically said, Fuck off, we want no part of it, and if you try it, we'll withdraw all our people and destroy you. Well, they never pulled that off, despite trying.
A favorite trope in these discussions is how Israel 'forced palestinians off their land', without providing examples. Nobody mentions Gaza, where a few years ago Israel forced *Israelis* to leave their homes and abandon their land. All for the sake of a more peaceful future. So what's been happening in Gaza?
The answer is that most of the "concern" for the Palestinians and the "outrage" over Israeli behavior is just window-dressing for Arab, European, and African-American antisemitism.
[quote]So what's been happening in Gaza?
It's so ironic and sad that gays will go against a little country that has super gay rights, and support a group where if you are gay in Gaza, you get killed!!!
That is all that matters, R90.
Correct, r88. That's why it's very difficult to take them seriously.
It came out in Condoleezza Rice's book that Israel's Ehud Olmert offered Palestine's Abbas a secret deal with very attractive terms. Abbas balked. Ehud was removed from office and replaced by hardliner Netanyahu; Abbas has had his legitimacy challenged by Hamas. The scenario for making a deal is much worse now.
Seems to me Palestinians turn up their noses at every offer the Israelis make. They could take advantage of timing/opportunities, agree to something not perfect, abide by the terms, and then build from there, but they never take the long view.
"build from there"? Meaning what? Signing a deal and then starting all over again? Never ending this shit?
Your way of thinking is exactly what many of them say they want meaning they never intend to solve the conflict, just perpetuate it until hopefully for them they will destroy Israel.
The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
The Ghost of Abba Eban
The Palestinians hope that some day the world will turn against Israel, and do their work for them.
Will and Ariel Sharon
They don't have a right to exist...THERE. They could very well exist elsewhere.
Gosh, someone surely is desperate to revive this thread.
Honey, the Palestinians have gotten a whole lot of shit for refusing to acknowledge Israel's right to exist for the last 50 years.
The only real solution is for a one secular state. But it will be many years and a couple more wars before that happens.
Zionism seemed like a good idea at the time, but those were racist times.
Israel has not recognized the Palestinian Authority as a state either, I might remind you.
They SAY they want a two state solution, but they continue to steal land within Palestinian borders and cut off Palestinians from income and jobs and markets whenever they feel like it.
The Palestinian state won't work where it is.
There was a time when Israel COULD have gotten Jordan to be the Palestinian state and send all the Gazans there, but it was ISRAEL which saved the Jordanian monarchy from a Palestinian takeover in the 70s and now they are reaping what they sowed for having genocidal intentions toward the Palestinian people.
[quote[but it was ISRAEL which saved the Jordanian monarchy from a Palestinian takeover in the 70s
How exactly? Is there anything the Jews aren't guilty of? It was King Hussein who slaughtered them in the 70's in the thousands (maybe more than that) because they threatened his rule.
I am all for a secular one state solution. I'm American so, fundamentally, I am opposed to nations built on ethnicity and or religious identity.
I am also Jewish.
However, I don't see a secular one state solution happening.
When people ask me how I can favor such a solution, warning me that then there will be a majority of Muslims in the country, I ask them why its important whether or not the majority is Jewish or Muslim. If they are American Jews, I tell them they sound like xenophobic white American Christians when they say that.
And I tell them that what is important is a secular constitution, the rights of all, and the values we generally hold paramount here. When they say, that's there, not here, and that there people might suffer the abuses of Sharia law and Muslim fundamentalism. I say yes, there are always threats from the religious right (of all stripes), and that even here, we have to fight to meet them daily. If Israeli Jews have fought all these years as bravely and successfully as they have to support the state as it exists, they can continue to fight as bravely and successfully to support a secular humanist one.
One that doesn't have the star of david on the flag. I wouldn't want the American flag to have the cross on it, and I can well understand Palestinians not wanting the Israeli flag to have the star of david on the flag of the land their families used to live in.
When they then tell me, but their families left. I say of course they did. There was a war and they were on the one hand, enticed to leave by the Arab states surrounding them, and on the other, forced out by those militant Zionists who wanted their land. The fact is that by and large neither the general Arab or Israeli Jewish populations have given a shit about the Palestinians.
When they say but if they would have accepted one of the offered solutions from the beginning, this wouldn't have happened this way. I say, perhaps, but they didn't. And who is this "they." The Palestinians can not be blamed for the decisions of the surrounding states to play or not play and they had a lot more power than they did. Then I say, even to the extent the Palestinians played a role in that process, and even if we can say - as some Palestinian leaders are now admitting - that turning down the original two state solution was a mistake, so what? The Palestinians and Israelis of today can not be blamed for what happened in the 1940s, mistakes made not only by both sides, but by the entire world. They are two peoples who, like it or not, live in a region, and the question is how best, with contemporary standards of political and ethical philosophy, can they coexist, and how we might finally be able to put an end to a conflict that really has no underpinning accept religion and ethnicity.
When they say there is no such thing as Palestinians. I say to the extent they are correct - which they are not - they are only correct because they are talking about a people who have lived under the occupation of others for centuries. But that doesn't mean that they don't exist, have rights, it simply means that they, for the sake of an argument I don't accept, did not have a name. And that means absolutely nothing.
One thing we know for sure about the Middle East is that the accepted story of what "really happened" isn't the real story.
[italic]It's so ironic and sad that gays will go against a little country that has super gay rights, and support a group where if you are gay in Gaza, you get killed!!![/italic]
Log Cabin Republicans support gays. Why isn't your stupid ass signing up for membership? Oh, I see, so if anyone or anyplace leaves gays the fuck alone, everything they do gets a pass. Gotcha. America treats its people better than the Middle East treats theirs, so support everything the US does, and shut the fuck up. The invasion of Iraq must then be justified. Why speak out against the country that is much less barbaric (USA) than the Middle East? Why should I give a shit that they're getting slaughtered for having nothing to do with 9/11? It's not like they're good people anyway.
People like you are Republican material, and you probably are. Totally brainless, and worthless.
R106, they would have more strength in that argument if Hillary Clinton weren't cuddling Saudi Arabia and Uganda against her ample breast.
"It's so ironic and sad that gays will go against a little country that has super gay rights, and support a group where if you are gay in Gaza, you get killed!!!"
I'm trying to understand your logic. Would you argue that because of the atrocities against gay people in Uganda or Iran, that any nation would be justified in doing whatever it wanted in retaliation, no matter how it impacted the people of the offending nation, and we should sit idly by, let it happen, and remain silent, because doing otherwise would be tantamount to lending our support to homophobes who would kill us?
Because if that's what you are saying, I think you really need to take a look at that. Perhaps you might want to consider taking some remedial classes in logic and the humanities, because you certainly need it.
I remember how quietly Israel sat by as genocide was being inflicted by the Serbs because the Serbs had fought the Nazis.
R108 needs to relax. R106 knows what he's talking about. The Palestinians are not gay friendly to say the least. Is Isreal innocent? Hell fucking no! BTW..most gay Jews in Isreal are not Zionist. Also, a little remedial history lession for you.
Israel took the Gaza strip in the six day war in 1967. To the victor goes the spolies people. Just because someone plants a flag on a piece of land doesn't mean it will always reside under that states control. Furthermore, why would anyone let Palestine occupy land where people launch missles into your country? Give me a break...Isreal should bomb gaza so hard that nobody would ever want to live there ever again. Plus this would leave a buffer zone between the two countries kind of like the DMZ....
R111, there is a real inconsistency in arguments in favour of Israel attacks on Palestinian civilians: 1) we read on this thread that the Jews were on this land thousands of years ago so it's rightfully theirs, 2) we also read that the Israelis won this land in war and "to the victor go the spoils". Either "nations" have some kind of inalienable right to a piece of territory because it was "theirs" historically, even if someone else is living there now, or anyone can come along and if they are stronger they are justfied in grabbing the land and keeping it. Which is it? Because the two arguments contradict each other.
I'd also like to point out that the "land" problem we are dealing with today is one where currently living Palestinians have been and continue to be removed or forced out of their homes in various ways to make room for Israeli settlers so as to consolidate Israel's hold on disputed territory.
As for the gay issue, yes, Israel has a more open view on gay rights in a region that tends to hate gays - because Israel is essentially comprised of a European population that only recently migrated to the region. The "norm" in the Middle East is to be repressive of sexuality, and it will continue to be so until these countries are able to mature and develop, which will not happen until the Palestinian issue is resolved.
Israel also ceded Gaza by LEAVING even though they did take it in a war. The idea was that peace would be more likely if they actually retreated from territories they expanded into during a war.
Instead, they got constant rocket attacks.
The Palestinians could only recognise Israel's "right to exist" by endorsing a great wrong done against them - their expulsion from their ancestral lands and their conversion into 4th class citizens in their own country. They have shown remarkable bravery and stamina in not accepting that in the face of a rich and vindictive enemy copiously funded and protected by the world's largest superpower. Small wonder they haven't had much time to work on liberalising gay rights.
There is no evidence that the Jews who have now occupied Palestine have a better moral right to this land than its former Arab inhabitants, even if one goes back to Roman times. Even in Biblical times this area was occupied by non-Jewish tribes such as the Philistines and Canaanites. Moreover, Judaism was an evangelising religion in earlier times as Christianity and Islam still are: many current Jews are converted Moroccan Berbers or Black Sea Khazars who have no historical connection to the Levant.
[quote]They have shown remarkable bravery and stamina in not accepting that in the face of a rich and vindictive enemy copiously funded and protected by the world's largest superpower. Small wonder they haven't had much time to work on liberalising gay rights.
Such weirdly revisionist bullshit. Only their 'bravery and stamina' prevent them from accepting terms from Israel, the evil temptress? And they're so busy with this they "haven't had much time" to stop persecuting/killing gays? Are you for real?
They live in squalor because their leadership failed them. They are kept on a tight leash from both sides. Their misery is used as a political football. Only if they are kept desperate and miserable can the dream of wiping out Israel be constantly stoked. Once they have creature comforts and look around at the desire for peace, that dream will die. Hamas will not let that happen.
[quote]They live in squalor because their leadership failed them.
Indeed. The Israelis don't keep them in camps; the Arabs do. Mahmoud Abbas won't let Palestinians move out of the Balata Camp in the West Bank.
P.S. Am I the only person who wonders why people (probably just one person) continues to resurrect threads that are over a year old? If someone wants to troll Datalounge, I think he should show enough devotion to pay the $18.
Because Israel doesn't actually have a right to exist. Unless you believe what their invisible sky-fairy supposedly told them.
Well, r117, if you want to ignore all the Jews who lived in the province of Palestine before and during the Ottoman Empire, and ignore all the Jews who returned there before the Zionists showed up, and then the Zionists who started showing up in the 1870s and buying land, and then all the Jews who returned over the decades buying land to farm and develop, all before WWI killed off the Ottoman Empire, I guess I can't make you pay attention. But the Jews lived there before the Mandate was even created to set up a Jewish Homeland. And why was it wrong for the League of Nations to set up a new country there? If you want to dissolve the country of Israel, then you should also be asking to dissolve the nations of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Iraq, all creations of the evil European "colonists." Isn't it interesting that the only one of the new states that some people want to eliminate is Israel? Gosh, I wonder why that is?
But go back and live in your propaganda-fed life and pretend that there were no Jews there prior to 1945.
Oh please, we're constantly hearing from Zionists and the morons who parrot Pro-Israel b/s that "Palestinians never existed." That a group of brown people who weren't Jewish just suddenly popped up on the land in '48 when the Jews showed up from Europe.
Revisionist history from Zionists and people like Newt Gingrich who only serve to not only invalidate the rights of a people, but to create this caricature of them as all being evil terrorists looking to kill Jews (it's the kind of garbage worthy of Goebbels), so they can justify slaughtering them.
Zionists have controlled the "message" and the pr in this country for decades, so of course they're going to continue to lie even as many people have access to info not filtered by the media or govt.
Why don't Israelis get any shit for refusing Palestine's right to exist?
[quote]Oh please, we're constantly hearing from Zionists and the morons who parrot Pro-Israel b/s that "Palestinians never existed.
Nope. What's repeated is that prior to the 1960s, the people now called Palestinians referred to themselves as Arabs. Prior to 1948, people who referred to themselves as Palestinians were Jews living in what is now Israel.
Golda Meir said something to this effect which is lambasted as a claim that there were no Palestinians there. What she was talking about is how they referred to themselves.
[quote]The only real solution is for a one secular state. But it will be many years and a couple more wars before that happens
Really? Have you ever looked at how Muslims treat their minority populations? It ain't pretty. Living as a minority in a majority Muslim country is a guarantee of, at best, second class status. Doubt that? Take a look at Pakistan, Bangladesh, Egypt and Syria.
Even this very question is arrogant.
Why does everyone just go along with Israel being allowed to dictate with whom they will negotiate, yet they expect the Palestinians to just negotiate with whomever the Israelis elect?
Do you think Palestinians don't view Ariel Sharon as a terrorist? Most of those PMs were members of terrorist groups: Irgun and Haganah were both terrorist groups long before Hamas or the PLO ever even existed, and they were comprised of foreigners. They have a lot of blood on their hands, yet Zionists would have you believe they weren't violent terrorists.
The US has allowed Israel to control both sides of the negotiations. Hamas was elected because Bush and Olmert didn't want to work with Abbas. They weakened him. Those two were the reason there even was an election. They didn't like the results and punished the Palestinians for it.
The IRA didn't have to recognize British rule in Northern Ireland as a precondition before talks started, nor did they have to give up weapons or jump through any hoops for the Brits, but since Israel has AIPAC and Congress and UN vetoes and all sitting presidents up their asses, they get to dictate the terms as they violate Int'l law.
[quote]Why don't Israelis get any shit for refusing Palestine's right to exist?
They don't. Even Netanyahu has agreed to a two-state solution.
Now, please, pretty please, tell me about any Arab leader who is willing to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Provide a link, please, to substantiate your claim.
[quote]Why does everyone just go along with Israel being allowed to dictate with whom they will negotiate, yet they expect the Palestinians to just negotiate with whomever the Israelis elect?
The Israelis have been willing for years to negotiate with Mahmoud Abbas, even though is doctoral dissertation is a piece of Holocaust denial.
The Israelis were willing to negotiate with Anwar Sadat, even though he was a Nazi supporter. He actually wrote a fan letter to Hitler.
That's how willing the Israelis are to achieve peace. When will the Palestinians put forward someone who's willing to negotiate with them at all? It's been years now since they've been willing to negotiate with the Israeli PM. Even the fucks from Hamas wouldn't negotiate directly with the Israelis to achieve the recent ceasefire.
[quote]The US has allowed Israel to control both sides of the negotiations.
The negotiations are managed by the quartet: the UN, the US, the EU and Russia.
R121, it doesn't matter what you call the non-Jews living there, the idea that many of them don't have a history there, yet someone flying in from Russia has more rights there on day one than the non-Jews who have been living there, is ridiculous. The land was never solely Jewish.
You cannot justify a claim to the land by Jews from thousands of years ago, then claim to justify what was done to the Palestinians by pointing to what happened to Native Americans.
How is it more logical to give the land to Jews based on an ancient book and a fairytale, yet justify living on Native American land?
[quote] it doesn't matter what you call the non-Jews living there, the idea that many of them don't have a history there,
Which non-Jews living there supposedly don't have a history there? WTF are you talking about?
[quote]yet someone flying in from Russia has more rights there on day one than the non-Jews who have been living there, is ridiculous. The land was never solely Jewish.
Arabs, Jews, Druze, Circassians, Samaritans and everyone other Israeli citizen living in the state of Israel has equal rights under the law. I am not pretending that there is no discrimination or communal loathing. But when it comes to rights, citizens equal under the law.
No one is asking for the land to be solely Jewish. However, Mahmoud Abbas has stated that the state of Palestine is created, Jews won't be welcome to live there.
[quote]Because Israel doesn't actually have a right to exist.
So an as-yet nonexistent state of Palestinians does have a right to exist, but the existent state of Israel has no right to exist, even though from the get-go since its founding the goal was to have and Arab and a Jewish state living as neighbors. But in your opinion, this is not possible because Israel has no right to exist?
We read you loud and clear.
As for the right of return, my partner was born in England, but can now settle anywhere in the EU, even in countries he's never set foot in.
Are you as equally outraged about this?
I could also move to Ireland because i have grandparents from there, even though I've never set foot in Ireland.
Doesn't that make you just as mad?
How come no one was calling for Palestine when Jordan controlled the West Bank and Egypt controlled Gaza.
If life is so horrible in Gaza, then the Palestinians living in the strip should seek refuge in neighboring Arab states, where they would be welcomed with opened arms by their Arab brothers and sisters.
The Palestinians should stop whining and relocate to other Arab countries; over the years, many have already moved to Jordan and Lebanon. I suggest that the rest of them join their expats.
The next time there are attacks from Hamas militants, Israel should set an evacuation deadline for Gaza and then carry out a scorched-earth policy which reduces the strip to an uninhabitable heap of rubble & smoldering ashes -- and perhaps contaminate the soil for extra measure.
R132 is one of those people you just look at and wonder how they function on a daily basis.
You're an idiot.
My understanding is the palestinian refugees fled Israel becuase the surrounding arab countries, who were about to attack israel, told them to. The arabs still in israel did not leave.
To the suprise of many isreal was able to defend itself against the arab attacks but would not let the palestinians back in.
Israel notes they had to accept the same amount of jewish refugees fleeing surrounding arab countries so the arab countries should accept the palestinian refugees.
Israel occupies a tiny piece of land. There are 50 million jews surrounding by 500 million arabs.
r134 you bring up a point that seems to be lost in this thread: Israelis/Jews are not allowed to even set foot in most Arab countries.
It used to be that if an American had an israeli passport stamp from visiting, the arab countries would also deny entry. I think they've changed this so they now give you a separate piece of paper.
In all the arguments about racism and ethnic cleansing nobody seems to mention this.
Why didn't the black South Africans just get the hell out of S.A? I mean there were plenty of other black African countries for them to go.
Why didn't the Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland just move south or the Irish Protestants should've all moved to England? I mean they all speak English. There's no difference.
Why didn't the Cubans just all move to some other Latin American country? Most of them speak Spanish.
R134 is perpetuating the biggest lie in history. A good friend of mine watched his father dig his own grave (he was later spared). Jews were expelled from Arab countries AFTER Palestine was partitioned. Nobody has the authority to tell the Arab countries to accept the Palestinian refugees. The Jews have always used the holocaust to further their own designs, but have forgotten it when it was politically convenient. In the 1982 invasion of Lebanon and subsequent genocide of the Palestinians, the Israelis occupied the offices of their allies the Nazi Phalangists. On the wall was the photo of Pierre Gemayel, the founder of the Phalange, taken in Berlin in 1936. all the while Jane Fonda was entertaining the Israeli troops.
Nobody is saying palestinians should just leave r137.
Do you even know who is arguing for them to have a sovereign state, with an infrastructure, and rule of law, and who is keeping them in camps?
r138 where does r134 say it didn't happen after partition?
You're nitpicking (on a mistake) and leaving aside the main point, which is: why is it ok for Arab countries to expel entire groups of people, and it's not OK for Israel to not let back in people who left under the promise that israel would be destroyed if they did? Israel never expelled all Arabs. never planned to, never did so.
Fast forward to today ...
How many Arabs live in Israel? How many Arabs are in parliament in Israel?
How many Jews or Israelis live in Arab countries?
Why are Americans getting so het up about this issue? It's not your country, it's not your region, it's not your issue. Why is it such a senstive political issue in the US, with so many taboos about what can and can't be said? Really, it's got nothing to do with you, so why have such strong opinions. For example, why does OP care so much, if he/she is not Israeli or Palestinian?
I simply cannot believe you are still arguing about this. Please! In honor of my husband's latest exhumation, be kind, you evil Zionist bitches!
I said Damascus was an old fossil, and she is. Any where else we would have been assailed by a clamorous army of donkey-drivers, guides, peddlers and beggars--but in Damascus they so hate the very sight of a foreign Christian that they want no intercourse whatever with him; only a year or two ago, his person was not always safe in Damascus streets. It is the most fanatical Mohammedan purgatory out of Arabia. Where you see one green turban of a Hadji elsewhere (the honored sign that my lord has made the pilgrimage to Mecca,) I think you will see a dozen in Damascus. The Damascenes are the ugliest, wickedest looking villains we have seen. All the veiled women we had seen yet, nearly, left their eyes exposed, but numbers of these in Damascus completely hid the face under a close-drawn black veil that made the woman look like a mummy. If ever we caught an eye exposed it was quickly hidden from our contaminating Christian vision; the beggars actually passed us by without demanding bucksheesh; the merchants in the bazaars did not hold up their goods and cry out eagerly, "Hey, John!" or " Look this, Howajji!" On the contrary, they only scowled at us and said never a word.
Mark Twain Bitches
Excellent question R141. It is because of the tremendous power the Jewish lobby has in this country. If Israel is so pure and holy, why is the United States the ONLY country willing to support them? Would Barbara Boxer want to foot the estimated half billion this latest little excursion cost if it were a South American or Southeast Asian country? She'd be howling for impeachment if it were a Republican President. The Palestinians are unfortunate in that they are the wrong color and the wrong religion for Hollywood tastes. A vast right wing conspiracy.
[quote]Really, it's got nothing to do with you, so why have such strong opinions. For example, why does OP care so much, if he/she is not Israeli or Palestinian?
Because our tax dollars are used to support much of the fighting that goes on over there, it IS an issue that involves us.
I always wonder about the "tremendous power of the Jewish Lobby." Especially, when the only mention I heard of Gaza firing rockets into Israel was only after Israel started firing back.
Why don't all you Palestinian supporting gay men go to the west bank and show your support with your husbands, just be careful you don't get killed in the process since being gay is a brings a death sentence.
R146, if you are denying the heavy-handed influence of AIPAC on the US government you are uninformed, or dishonest, or a dolt.
It's shocking to see such a double standard on this site when it comes to the situation in the middle east.
It makes no sense to me, never will.
Yes, r145 - clearly the tax dollars going to Egypt or Pakistan are money much better spent....
First of all they do get shit for it.
Secondly, there objections to the creation of a Jewish state are legitimate. You might disagree with them. But think about it. Should any state created in the 20th century be based on religious or ethnic identity, let alone a state on which your family, which is not a member of that religious/ethnic group, lived on when that state was created? Sure we can all agree that the reluctance to acknowledge the legitimacy of israel is not made up out of thin air.
Ok, that's the threshold. Now of course the counter argument is that Israel, like it or not, was "lawfully" created by the U.N.
But then you add Israel adding settlements in the occupied territories which it kept after the cessation of the hostilities which led to that occupation.
Which, unlike the creation of the state of Israel, is not at all lawful but a violation of the Geneva Convention. On top of the brutal way Israel has treated Palestinians, even allowing for the brutal way Palestinians have also treated Israelis, and you can understand that:
The question isn't why Palestinians don't get shit for not acknowledging Israel's right to exist but why they get so much shit for not acknowledging it.
The conditions of Palestinian is basically squaller. They live in derelict buildings because Israel refuses to allow them to import any raw materials, they are economically strangling them, they are not allowed export/import goods, they are not allowed farm on their own land, land which is the most fertile land in the region.
They have a fishing quota in their own seas, they have limited medicine, their hospitals are inadequate to deal with the 100s of causalities, Israel bomb the most densely populate area, killing 1000s of civilians and Israel call these mistakes.
I am not saying Israel has no right to defend itself against terrorists, but they responses is not accidental disproportionate, they want Palestinian gone.
I cannot envisage an end 'til America gets tougher on Israel, but now that Islam is the enemy, and the liberal left is now as pro-Israel as the right. I guess innocent Palestinians will have to get use to being massacred by the Israeli military.
[quote]Should any state created in the 20th century be based on religious or ethnic identity
Not a proponent of Palestinian statehood, then, r151?
R150, that is not the point.
The point was we are allowed to have an opinion on any issue that we have to pay for with our tax dollars. Another poster was saying we should have no say in the matter and I am replying that as long as our money is involved, we are involved.
Can you follow that?
[quote]...and the liberal left is now as pro-Israel as the right.
There's some truth to this. Ten years after 9/11 and 2 months after Benghazi, terrorism is somehow falling out of favor with the left. There's been an almost imperceptible shift.
[quote]Should any state created in the 20th century be based on religious or ethnic identity
Shall we assume then that you apply the same logic to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan which was formed in 1947 by partitioning what used to be British India?
Israel receives billions from the taxpayers of the United States.
We are their bitch!
Um, 11 years.
You are allowed to have an opinion an any issue at all, r154, no matter whether you pay for it or not. It's just curious that so many people seem much more worried what their tax dollars are doing in Israel than about what they're doing in Pakistan or Egypt, isn't it? Very curious.
I think US news and current affairs shows are censored to support the political leanings of each station, but also censored in general. I don't think a show like say, Bill Maher, wold ever be given any sorta time in Europe, it is very simplified and he is hugely biased to his own political agenda, Hannity and Bill O'Reily the same, they would not be given any political providence in the UK certainly.
R159, you are obviously implying that any and all criticism of Israel must be evidence of anti-semitism.
Harping on that same string over and over is getting old.
[quote]Hannity and Bill O'Reily the same, they would not be given any political providence in the UK certainly.
Lucky for the UK. Ugh. Hannity. I listen to Randi Rhodes (love her) and Hannity (hate her) on the drive home. I just turn to Hannity on commercials. Just so stupid. And Rush Limbaugh. Isn't his 15 minutes up yet?
No, r161 - only criticism that is out of all proportion. And one doesn't have to go far looking for that.
r152 the squalid conditions for most palestinians are not caused by Israel. That is a fact that must be brought up. What happened to all our tax dollars that were supposed to ameliorate living conditions for people in the west bank and gaza?
If israel was the source of all the problems, why didn't pulling out of gaza improve the lives of the Gazans?
It is the aversion toward any sort of political agreement that is keeping people in squalor.
Why do people not want to negotiate for peace to improve their lives? I cannot understand it.
Bill Maher is pro-Israel because he, like all new atheists, hate Muslims more than he hates Jews.
link to an old but interesting, and still relevant read.
In a poll of Arabs with Israeli citizenship, 70% said they think it's a good idea to build a nation alongside Israel but only 30% said they would go and live there.
[quote]If israel was the source of all the problems, why didn't pulling out of gaza improve the lives of the Gazans?
Because Israel will not allow Palestinian to import any raw materials in order to rebuild, Israel allow a certain and small quota of building materials into Gazza.
Why are your tax dollars going over there to support the fighting, r145? Is it possible that if your tax dollars were not part of the equation then it might be easier to find a settlement?
R168, write Senator Barbara Boxer. With all of California's fiscal troubles, isn't it wonderful she can pour money into Israel to maintain their wars and lavish lifestyle!
If Palestine were to lay down their guns tomorrow, there would be no war. If Israel were to lay down theirs, there would be no Israel - Benjamin Netanyahu
R170, Benjamin Netanyahu's father was the secretary to Vladimir Jabotinsky, the Zionist maniac. In 1935 Jabotinsky wrote Mussolini congratulating him on his victory in Ethiopia as a triumph of the white race. This was in your favorite paper, the Village Voice.
It's true though, isn't it R171
what Mencken disliked most about the Jews was their constant insistence they be flattered. No other country demands the other nations pass resolutions that it has a right to exist. They only reason Israel demands it is that it was established on stolen land, and it has a pathological need to hear others speak about it in glowing terms.
As with most intruders, if Israel disappeared tomorrow, no one would remember them for long.
[quote]If israel was the source of all the problems, why didn't pulling out of gaza improve the lives of the Gazans?
A: Because the blockade restricting the flow of goods into and out of Gaza remains in effect and has, in fact, been tightened.
You stupid fucking bitch.
[quote]No other country demands the other nations pass resolutions that it has a right to exist.
Brilliantly acerbic parody of a braindead anti-Semite. Or are you for real?
We should all disregard r170's quote because ... the author's father was secretary to a zionist maniac? Yeah that makes sense.
r174, do you think a tightened blockade might have anything to do with the fact that they are lobbing missiles into civilian areas? Should israel just let the flow of missiles happen?
You're falling right into the worst kind of agitprop cynicism. When a dozen israelis are killed in a civilian attack, and israel takes out the weapons depots hidden in schools/mosques, killing more civilians, you'll say how imbalanced it is. The salient fact is gazans are putting their own civilians in danger, hoping their deaths can be used to make israel look bad.
If Gazans stopped with the violence, the blockade would be eased. With Hamas in power this is unlikely.
I'd return your 'stupid fucking bitch' epithet but i won't stoop to your level.
"Not a proponent of Palestinian statehood then r151?"
No, r153, that isn't a gotcha moment because I'm not. I am in favor of a one state solution which allows return of Palestinians to what is now Israel and the creation of a new nation, not with a Mogen David or a crescent on the flag, but a modern nation conceived in equality.
It may be a dream. But after 65 years of this, isn't it time to try something that actually makes moral sense?
Let's try this neat one-state experiment with India and Pakistan first, shall we, r177? If everythings works out well with that, maybe Israel will consider it too.
Why should India and Pakistan come first?
Why not? Start lobbying their respective governments now. Good luck with your campaign!
R178, why do you get so passionate about this issue? Are you Israeli? If you are simply a foreign person with no connection to Israel or Palestine but who is simply outraged by the muder, then why are you more outraged by the 3 Israeli civilians who were killed recently than by the over 100 Palestinian civilians were killed?
If Hamas laid down their arms would Israel give the Palestinians their land back and stop trying to remove them from their land? And, by "their land" I am referring to real living Palestinians who were forced off their land and out of their houses by Israel, or their parents/grandparents were and so they're now living in refugee camps.
^^^^^^ R181 should be addressed to r176.
And, another thing, r174's epithet actually seems quite apt, and usually I hate that sort of language. You are already way lower than that level, r176.
Who the fuck cares about acknowledgement? Stupid issue.
Did we make the Native American say we have a right to exist?
The only thing I'm "so passionate" about, r181, is correcting misinformation and outright lies, and it amazes me how much of both surround any discussion of Israel and Palestinians.
Reading between the lines, it sounds like what you're asking me is if i'm a Jew. Answer is: No, I am not, I was actually raised catholic, and have been shocked at the antisemitism I found there. I profess no religion. (Now I'm pretty sure you'll deny that's what you were asking.)
Any civilian deaths are tragic. Don't ignorantly deny that one side is putting civilians in harm's way deliberately. And stop ignoring the reasons why people are stuck in refugee camps.
Your little addendum at 183 is really laughable.
So answer the question R185...whey the fuck should anyone acknowledge their right to exist?
[quote]who were forced off their land and out of their houses by Israel, or their parents/grandparents were and so they're now living in refugee camps
Provide examples of this please. Most of the people who were not let back in had left under the promise that Israel would be destroyed. The arabs who had not left were not disturbed. Do you even know any facts? It seems all you know is your hatred of israel.
The only examples i know of where people were forceably removed from their homes were Israelis who were kicked out of Gaza.
Why not, r181? Because we are discussing Israel.
Moreover the Indian Partition Act, though an Act of the UK's Parliament, was agreed to by representatives of all Indian communities. One can not say the same for the U.N.'s creation of Israel.
The only people needing acknowledgement, r186, are both sides to any agreement.
By repeatedly calling for annihilation of 'the other' you are guaranteeing there will never be peace in the region.
That is 'why the fuck' acknowledgement of israel's right to exist matters.
I would say you are wrong.
Palestine could say...Israel does exist despite the fact they have absolutely NO RIGHT to thus we will deal with the fact of their existence.
So why do palestinians/arabs have a right to a state, and israelis/jews do not, r190?
I don't recall stating that R191. In fact I never did.
I never made this claim, why are you trying to put words in my mouth?
[quote]If Hamas laid down their arms would Israel give the Palestinians their land back
Well, Israel already gave them back Gaza. In return, Israel didn't get peace; the Palestinians actually increased the rate of their attacks on southern Israel.
If the Palestinians want Israel to withdraw from the West Bank, then why, oh why, won't they negotiate with Israel? Why won't the Palestinians finish what they started in Oslo and negotiate the final terms.
[quote]and stop trying to remove them from their land?
Where are they removing Palestinians from their land?
If you're writing about Jerusalem, the court cases usually deal with property that was owned by Jews prior to 1948. After the Jordanian Army ethnically cleaned Jews from the West Bank and east Jerusalem, Arab families were moved into those properties. (And, by the way, at least one Palestinian camp was built on land owned and held by Jews prior to 1948.) After 1967, those Jews or their descendants reclaimed their properties in east Jerusalem. The Israeli courts have held that Palestinians can remain in those buildings as long as they pay rent. When they refuse to pay rent, eviction proceedings start and must wind their ways through the courts. There are also some cases where Jews have paid very high prices to buy property in Arab-held parts of Jerusalem. Their relatives sometimes fight the property transfer resulting in more court cases.
If you're talking about Israeli construction in West Bank settlements, that construction has to do with building inside already existing settlements, not claiming new land. That is to say, Israelis already living and/or working in those settlements want to add on to their houses or other buildings, or build in the central parts of the settlement.
In r190 which side does your all-caps NO RIGHT refer to?
Regarding the question supposedly answered in r174:
"If israel was the source of all the problems, why didn't pulling out of gaza improve the lives of the Gazans?"
[quote]A: Because the blockade restricting the flow of goods into and out of Gaza remains in effect and has, in fact, been tightened.
[quote]You stupid fucking bitch.
Well, if building materials couldn't enter the Gaza Strip because of the blockade, then how were the Palestinians able to build this hotel, you stupid fucking bitch?
Thank you R196 - 198.
Most people really have a primitive view on what life is like in Gaza. They really picture it as a big "strip" of land with few buildings and a bunch of refugees wandering around in squalor, which has been caused by the Israelis.
The truth of course is quite different.
Don't believe the bullshit.
[quote]do you think a tightened blockade might have anything to do with the fact that they are lobbing missiles into civilian areas? Should israel just let the flow of missiles happen?
No. The rockets started in 2001. In 2005, Israel withdrew completely from Gaza. Travel between Gaza and Israel was eased. In response, the Palestinians increased the rate of fire. The blockade did not begin until 2007.
The rockets started years before the blockade.
R184, Israel looks for any excuse not to make peace. They set up barriers (mental and physical ones) specifically to push the Palestinians to the edge so the Israelis can then scream. "You see??? They don't want peace!"
The one thing I'll say about the first Bush is that he and James Baker didn't roll over for the Israelis. Baker said (paraphrasing) "Call me when you're serious about peace."
The Israelis have only gotten worse because the US has allowed them to stack the deck against the Palis and the fact that there is nothing the Israelis have done or will do that the US won't defend means there is no incentive for the Israelis to make peace.
If 15 Palestinian children are killed and 1 Israeli gets a hangnail, the US will not acknowledge the former.
You can't tell me this story below isn't an example of Israel's arrogance and the fact the US has been its bitch for quite some time. To brag about demanding President Bush(W) get on the phone and embarrassing SoS Rice. Imagine what the right would've said if any other country did this to the president and SoS:
[quote]Olmert Says He Made Rice Change Vote
[quote]Why should India and Pakistan come first?
I suspect that was a hint that you should consider India and Pakistan. India was subjected to partition because Hindus and Muslims did not get along well. In the years since, India and Pakistan have fought repeatedly. Pakistan is currently sending terrorists into Kashmir and has been for years. But no one seems to think a one-state solution will solve their problem. So, why would you think a one-state solution would solve the Israel-Palestine problem?
Also relevant: life expectancy is higher and infant mortality is lower in the Gaza Strip than in Turkey or Brazil. Humanitarian crisis, my ass.
[quote]If 15 Palestinian children are killed and 1 Israeli gets a hangnail, the US will not acknowledge the former
You've got that backwards. If 50 rockets are fired into Israel, the U.S. and the rest of the world say nothing. If Israel responds by taking out the rocket launcher or the tunnels through which the rockets are smuggled, the world howls.
[quote]The management immediately ran into difficulties with supplies. "Wherever possible we are buying things from the local market," said Balletbo. "We only import what we can't find in Gaza."
[quote]At times there have been long delays in getting imported supplies through the tightly controlled crossings from Israel into Gaza.
In other words, built in spite of Israel being their usual, asshole selves.
R204 is the equivalent of a white southerner during segregation telling you that their 'nigras' are happy.
Well, r207, since the complaints about Israel's behaviour towards the Gazans center on the blockade and the effect it's having on their living conditions, these statistics are kind of relevant, don't you think?
But maybe it's just a side issue to distract from the slave labour Gazans are forced to do in Israel's cotton fields....
[quote] Israel looks for any excuse not to make peace.
Are you joking? What about leaving Gaza entirely? Is sending rockets into civilian areas in Israel making peace?
Where are the palestinian groups/organizations who are interested in peace accords? What are their goals? Who are their leaders?
Even if both states agree to recognize each other and make peace, outside forces will continue the war for them-- Zionists and neighboring Arab states. Came across this article, interesting read, if anyone's interested.
(Oops, sorry, you said "segregation", not "antebellum" - my first paragraph still stands, though.)
After my multiple posts about large construction projects in the Gaza Strip, r206 responded:
[quote]In other words, built in spite of Israel being their usual, asshole selves.
Now, let us consider what started this brouhaha:
[quote]The conditions of Palestinian is basically squaller. They live in derelict buildings because Israel refuses to allow them to import any raw materials, they are economically strangling them, they are not allowed export/import goods, they are not allowed farm on their own land, land which is the most fertile land in the region.
Isn't if fair to say that that was complete bullshit poverty porn? Have we not seen now enough evidence that Gazans do not live in squaller [sic]?
Unfortunately r206 was unable to follow the arguments here and instead took a moment to whine about the difficulties of the blockade. I don't doubt the blockade has been a pain in the ass. But it wasn't imposed to be mean to the poor little Palestinians. The blockade was imposed to protect civilians in southern Israel because the Palestinians aren't poor or little. They have been given lots of money with which to smuggle in arms to attack Israeli civilians. The Palestinians were free at any time to stop attacking southern Israel and to negotiate an end to the blockade.
No, r207, r204 was giving people data so that other Dataloungers won't be taken in by the poverty porn you and your pals keep posting here.
I am sick of hearing about the starving Palestinians. The all look well fed and most of them are plump! The Hamas leaders continue to call for Israel's demise after the cease fire and are playing Death to Israel songs for the little children to hear. I really hope the next war brings total destruction to this piece of shit strip of nothingness. The Iranians are supplying them with bombs which is a good reason to wipe them away.
R185, no, I'm not asking if you are a Jew, what I'm asking, since I'm assuming you are an American or at least certainly not from the Middle East, is why the fuck you get so "passionate" (and one-sided) about an issue that has nothing to do with your country? (Aside from that your taxes go there, again raising the question as to why your taxes go there.) Even if you were a Jew you would still be an American and not from the region and hence this issue still would have nothing to do with your country.
And, those trying to claim that life in Gaza is just fine are despicable. Ditto those trying to claim that no Palestinians have been forced off their land by Israel. The stinking hypocrisy is that the individuals who make such claims want us all to think that they are great humanitarians, outraged and shocked at the loss of life (as long as it's Israeli life, the loss of Palestinian life is either perfectly acceptable or, so they claim, the fault of Palestinians). You are truly repugnant.
I think i explained r215: it's the lies and disinformation here that shouldn't go unanswered that is the root of my 'passion'. (Gay people deal with such lies and disinformation about being gay constantly. So that's another factor.)
Your first proviso is clearly passionate hatred for israel, and anything that might not dovetail with that is dismissed with expletives ('despicable', 'stinking hypocrisy', 'fucking bitch' etc etc etc.) You have not countered any facts presented to you. I feel sorry for people like you who are so stuck in their thinking that rationality is not allowed in.
This thread is a perfect example of why both parties in the Gaza conflict are the scum of the earth. You simply can't bring up this topic without screaming lunatics on both sides spouting "evidence" that goes back to the dawn of time. They get off on being "right" and more importantly, on the other side being the incarnation of evil.
Uh, assholes? That's not the point. The point is to fix the problem now, so that people are no longer getting killed.
I want to say: let them kill each other off until no one on either side is left. Just everyone else stay out of it and let them die.
When I can summon some empathy, though, I think about both sides as infantile. If two kids begin the "he started it/no he started it" routine, a good parent says "I don't care who started it. Here's what we're going to do, and then I don't want to hear another word about it." Could the UN play the role of parent, and enforce?
R215, I lived in a neighborhood filled with people who are from Gaza and other parts of the Arab world. They experience no problem going back and forth to "my country" and don't seem to be suffering to any great extent.
When was the last time you were in Gaza? How much do you REALLY know about the area? People seem to have a kneejerk reaction to Israel and it's success in the middle east. Why are there Arabs in the Knesset? Why do Arabs in Israel enjoy living there? Why, in fact, do 70% support a Palestinian state alongside Israel, but only 30% of Israeli Arabs would go and live there upon its completion?
[quote]ou simply can't bring up this topic without screaming lunatics on both sides spouting "evidence" that goes back to the dawn of time.
Evidence that goes back to the dawn of time? WTF? I've been posting links that go all the waaaaaaaaay back to 2011. We've been discussing events from 2005, 2007, 2008, and 2012. Is that really ancient history to you?
Or have you just started whining because you're unable to counter all the data that has been supplied by your opponents?
[quote]Uh, assholes? That's not the point. The point is to fix the problem now, so that people are no longer getting killed.
Uh, asshole? That's pretty had to do when the Palestinians refuse to negotiate directly with the Israelis.
Honestly, I find these threads fascinating to read.
There are mostly thoughtful responses and then a few rabid haters that continue to scream and point fingers.
Sort of mirrors the real situation in the region, doesn't it?
Why can't we just get rid of the haters on both sides? The stupid religious nuts/fanatical haters have made the whole world miserable (I'm talking religious nuts/fanatical haters in EVERY COUNTRY on earth).
I know what you mean R221. These threads go on and on, but there's been a sea change, almost imperceptible, against supporting terrorist governments. My best friend (anti-Isreal) and I can't really even talk about the issue together. I get called a 'neo-con' or, worse, an out-and-out Republican because I don't see the mideast situation exactly as they do. I think it boils down to moral equivalence. The Arabs have successfully (at least in the past) positioned their Palestinian refugees as eternal victims and when Israel counters terror attacks, they are seen as an extension of the big, bad USA using force way out of proportion to what the Palestinians are able to manage. Yet, we ignore the fact that Iran, who has sworn to level Israel, is helping Hamas to train and arm themselves with rockets that can reach Israel's large population centers. Others, more religious, are scared that the clock is ticking since the establishment of Israel in 1948 and believe the end of the world will happen in their lifetimes due to the mere fact of Israel's existence.
R222, you are very perceptive. Being called a neocon or a Republican would make Barbara Boxer and Charles Shumer want to kill you. All these peace lovers are drowning Israel in money to dump napalm on little Arab children. This is the worse double standard in history.
R223, Please spare me the horrifying visual of little Arab children bathing in Israeli napalm (not true) and I'll spare you the horrifying visual of dead Arab children being moved around and positioned at various photo ops by their ghoulish Arab propagandists (true).
I don't think any state has ever been more associated with a particular war than California and this conflict. It seems all those peace lovers are screaming to send money over to the Middle East to kill, kill, kill. The California lifestyle has morphed into the California War.
R20 Germany doesn't have it's prewar borders. People, educate yourself. "Last time I checked"? Boy, you obviously never checked it.
You do realize r20 posted that over a year ago, right?
[quote]Uh, asshole? That's pretty had to do when the Palestinians refuse to negotiate directly with the Israelis.
WHAT? WTF is wrong with you?
Bush and Olmert refused to talk to Abbas.
Bush and Olmert demanded elections and Hamas won because why in the hell would the Palestinians reelect Abbas when the US and Israel refuse to negotiate with him? Then when Hamas won, the US and Israel pulled a "Wait, wait! We've changed our minds. We'll deal with Abbas!" The closures started and they threw their support behind Abbas. Walked around with him like a poodle.
They didn't even attempt to negotiate with Hamas...and spare me the bullshit about how Hamas wants to destroy Israel when Israel immediately made life a living hell for the people once Hamas was elected. The IRA was still bombing the Brits even as talks were starting.
The US Congress and AIPAC are the reason the US cannot be a truly impartial mediator.
Howard Dean was attacked for even suggesting the US be an honest broker. The Israeli lobby with its pressure on the govt and media has destroyed the reputation of the US when it comes to this issue.
Poor Israel is always "retaliating." Sure they are. All is well and the Arabs just decide to set off rockets for the hell of it. I'm sure the US media is honest when they tell us that's what happening. They don't have a history of lying about such things.
OK then r228, you tell us why they are firing rockets on Israeli civilians from Gaza. Or do you actually think the media is making this up?
R219 / R220 :
Other people than you have cited justifications for violence going back to Biblical times. And anyway, yes, 2005 et al is ancient history because all of the justifications from those years too are not going to help fix the problem today.
And your reply at R220 is a perfect example of the idiotic good guy/bad guy thinking that violence-mongers use to justify themselves.
Furthermore, R219 -- and I know it's impossible for someone like you to believe -- I don't have any "opponents." I believe I stated in my original post that I believe both sides are behaving like destructive lunatics.
[quote]Israel will stop being so defensive
[quote]They didn't even attempt to negotiate with Hamas...and spare me the bullshit about how Hamas wants to destroy Israel when Israel immediately made life a living hell for the people once Hamas was elected.
Hamas was elected January 2006. The blockade began in 2007. That is not immediate. Hmmm, what happened in between? March 2007 a unity government was formed but it didn't last long. Then came the battle between Hamas and Fatah, leaving Hamas in control of Gaza. That's when Israel and Egypt began the blockade of Gaza, because Fatah was no longer running the security there.
[quote]THE cease-fire that ended the latest round of violence between Israel and the Palestinians has enhanced the popularity of the militant group Hamas. This extremist organization has become the only interlocutor for the Arab world, for the West and, indirectly, for Israel. [bold]But Hamas refuses to recognize Israel’s existence or to negotiate with Israelis[/bold]
Is it right for two nations, Egypt and Israel, to blockade Gaza simply because they don't like the results of an election?
I don't think so.
[quote]The US Congress and AIPAC are the reason the US cannot be a truly impartial mediator.
Responsibility for negotiations lies with the quartet: the US, the UN, the EU and Russia.
[quote]Is it right for two nations, Egypt and Israel, to blockade Gaza simply because they don't like the results of an election?
One more time: The election was in January 2006. The blockade did not begin in 2007. The blockade was not in response to the election. It was in response to the Palestinian Authority losing control of Gaza.
The Fatah Palestinian government in the West Bank recognized Israel, though not as a Jewish state. That Hamas Palestinian government in Gaza refuses to recognize Israel.
The Ghost of Yasir Arafat
r215 your question about passionate debate about the middle east begs the question: Why are *you* so passionate about denouncing Israel, and also denying anything that suggests Gazans have more agency in their own lives then you will admit?
R239, to "beg the question" means to AVOID the question. It does not mean "to force the question."
That is all.
Ok fine let me rephrase it: r215, Your question about passionate debate about the middle east raises the question: Why are *you* so passionate about denouncing Israel, and also denying anything that suggests Gazans have more agency in their own lives then you will admit?