In a never-before published interview soon after her husband''s assassination, the young Jackie Kennedy calls Charles de Gaulle "that egomaniac," calls the Rev. martin Luther King "a phony," and Indira Gandhi "a real prune %E2%80%94 bitter, kind of pushy, horrible woman.%E2%80%9D
In the early days of the Cuban missile crisis, before the world knew that the cold war seemed to be sliding toward nuclear conflict, President John F. Kennedy telephoned his wife, Jacqueline, at their weekend house in Virginia. From his voice, she would say later, she could tell that something was wrong. Why don%E2%80%99t you come back to Washington? he asked, without explanation.
%E2%80%9CFrom then on, it seemed there was no waking or sleeping,%E2%80%9D Mrs. Kennedy recalls in an oral history scheduled to be released Wednesday, 47 years after the interviews were conducted. When she learned that the Soviets were installing missiles in Cuba aimed at American cities, she begged her husband not to send her away. %E2%80%9CIf anything happens, we%E2%80%99re all going to stay right here with you,%E2%80%9D she says she told him in October 1962. %E2%80%9CI just want to be with you, and I want to die with you, and the children do, too %E2%80%94 than live without you.%E2%80%9D
The seven-part interview conducted in early 1964 %E2%80%94 one of only three that Mrs. Kennedy gave after Mr. Kennedy%E2%80%99s assassination %E2%80%94 is being published as a book and an audio recording. In it, the young widow speaks with Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr., the historian and Kennedy aide, about her husband%E2%80%99s presidency, their marriage and her role in his political life. They do not discuss his death. The eight and a half hours of interviews had been kept private at the request of Mrs. Kennedy, who never spoke publicly about those years again before she died in 1994. The transcript and recording, obtained by The New York Times, offer an extraordinary immersion in the thoughts and feelings of one of the most enigmatic figures of the second half of the 20th century %E2%80%94 the woman who, as much as anyone, helped shape a heroic narrative of the Kennedy years. Though the interviews seem unlikely to redraw the contours of Mr. Kennedy or his presidency, they are packed with intimate observations and insights of the sort that historians treasure.
At just 34, and in what her daughter, Caroline Kennedy, describes in a foreword to the book as %E2%80%9Cthe extreme stages of grief,%E2%80%9D Mrs. Kennedy displays a cool self-possession and a sharp, somewhat unforgiving eye. In her distinctive breathy cadences, an intimate tone and the impeccable diction of women of her era and class, she delivers tart commentary on former presidents, heads of state, her husband%E2%80%99s aides, powerful women, women reporters, even her mother-in-law.
Charles DeGaulle, the French president, is %E2%80%9Cthat egomaniac.%E2%80%9D The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. is %E2%80%9Ca phony%E2%80%9D whom electronic eavesdropping has found arranging encounters with women. Indira Gandhi, the future prime minister of India, is %E2%80%9Ca real prune %E2%80%94 bitter, kind of pushy, horrible woman.%E2%80%9D
The White House social secretary, Letitia Baldrige, Mrs. Kennedy tells Mr. Schlesinger, loved to pick up the phone and say things like %E2%80%9CSend all the White House china on the plane to Costa Rica%E2%80%9D or tell them they had to fly string beans in to a state dinner. She quotes Mr. Kennedy saying of Lyndon B. Johnson, his vice president, %E2%80%9COh, God, can you ever imagine what would happen to the country if Lyndon was president?%E2%80%9D And Mr. Kennedy on Franklin D. Roosevelt: %E2%80%9CCharlatan is an unfair word,%E2%80%9D but %E2%80%9Che did an awful lot for effect.%E2%80%9D
She suggests that %E2%80%9Cviolently liberal women in politics%E2%80%9D preferred Adlai Stevenson, the former Democratic presidential nominee, to Mr. Kennedy because they %E2%80%9Cwere scared of sex.%E2%80%9D Of Madame Nhu, the sister-in-law of the president of South Vietnam, and Clare Boothe Luce, a former member of Congress, she tells Mr. Schlesinger, in a stage whisper, %E2%80%9CI wouldn%E2%80%99t be surprised if they were lesbians.%E2%80%9D (cont.)
(cont.) Any shortcomings on the part of her husband are not mentioned. She speaks of his loyalty, sensitivity, courage %E2%80%94 traits consistent with the Camelot template she had been the first to invoke. She presents herself as adoring, eager for his approval and deeply moved by the man. There is no talk of his extramarital affairs or secret struggle with Addison%E2%80%99s disease, though she does speak in detail about his back pain and the 1954 back surgery that almost killed him.
He was, she says, kind, conciliatory, forgiving, a gentleman, a man of taste in people, furniture, books. Fondly, she recalls him ever reading %E2%80%94 while walking, dining, bathing, doing his tie. She remembers with amusement how he would change into pajamas for his 45-minute afternoon nap in the White House. She lets slip a reference to a %E2%80%9Ccivilized side of Jack%E2%80%9D and %E2%80%9Csort of a crude side,%E2%80%9D but she clarifies: %E2%80%9CNot that Jack had the crude side.%E2%80%9D
He wept in her presence a handful of times. Mrs. Kennedy describes how he cried in his bedroom, head in hands, over the debacle of the attempted invasion of Cuba at the Bay of Pigs in 1961 by Cuban exiles opposed to Fidel Castro and trained by the Central Intelligence Agency.
On the subject of her marriage, she presents herself in many ways as a traditional wife %E2%80%94 one year after the publication of %E2%80%9CThe Feminine Mystique%E2%80%9D by Betty Friedan had helped inspire a wave of rethinking of that role. Her marriage, she remarks, was %E2%80%9Crather terribly Victorian or Asiatic.%E2%80%9D Her aim was to provide %E2%80%9Ca climate of affection and comfort and detente%E2%80%9D %E2%80%94 and the children in good moods. She suggests the couple never really had a fight. She insists she got her opinions from her husband. On that last point, at least, Michael Beschloss, the historian, who was enlisted to write an introduction and annotations to the book, said in an interview, %E2%80%9CI would take that with a warehouse of salt.%E2%80%9D
In fact, he said, he found %E2%80%9Ca very high correlation%E2%80%9D between the people Mrs. Kennedy runs down in the interviews and those known to have had difficulty in the Kennedy administration. In some cases, they were in danger of being fired. Those she praises, Mr. Beschloss said, tend to have flourished. To what extent that correlation reflects Mrs. Kennedy%E2%80%99s influence on her husband, or vice versa, is open to interpretation and is likely to vary from case to case.
Recalling a trip to India and Pakistan with her sister, Lee Radziwill, in 1962, Mrs. Kennedy says she was so appalled by what she considered to be the gaucherie of the newly appointed United States ambassador to Pakistan, Walter McConaughy, that before even completing her descent from the Khyber Pass, she wrote a letter to her husband alerting him to %E2%80%9Cwhat a hopeless ambassador McConaughy was for Pakistan, and all the reasons and all the things I thought the ambassador should be.%E2%80%9D
She even named possible replacements.
%E2%80%9CAnd Jack was so impressed by that letter,%E2%80%9D she tells Mr. Schlesinger, that he showed it to Dean Rusk, the secretary of state (whom Mrs. Kennedy disparages as apathetic and indecisive). According to her account, Mr. Kennedy said to Mr. Rusk, %E2%80%9CThis is the kind of letter I should be getting from the inspectors of embassies.%E2%80%9D
Even so, Mr. McConaughy, a career diplomat, remained ambassador to Pakistan until 1966.
(cont.) There are men she praises, too, in the book, which is titled %E2%80%9CJacqueline Kennedy: Historic Conversations on Life With John F. Kennedy%E2%80%9D and published by Hyperion. She credits Joseph P. Kennedy Sr., the president%E2%80%99s father, as the dominant influence in inculcating a sense of discipline in his children. Among the administration figures she admires are Robert F. Kennedy, the president%E2%80%99s brother; Robert S. McNamara, the defense secretary; and McGeorge Bundy, the national security adviser. She calls Andr%C3%A9 Malraux, the French novelist, %E2%80%9Cthe most fascinating man I%E2%80%99ve ever talked to.%E2%80%9D She says she was impressed above all by the Colombian president, Alberto Lleras Camargo, whom she finds %E2%80%9CNordic in his sadness.%E2%80%9D
In many of her accounts of her marriage, the grieving widow in her early 30s appears to bear little resemblance to the woman who married Aristotle Onassis, the Greek shipping magnate, four years later, or who, after his death, embarked upon a career as a book editor in New York and later told a friend she had come to realize she could not expect to live primarily through a husband. Doris Kearns Goodwin, the historian and wife of Richard Goodwin, a Kennedy aide, said in an interview on Friday, %E2%80%9CIt%E2%80%99s certainly not the Jackie that we knew later on.%E2%80%9D
But, she added, %E2%80%9CBy then, she%E2%80%99s a different woman.%E2%80%9D
Mrs. Kennedy might have been intentionally projecting the image expected of women at the time. She also knew that she was speaking for the historical record, since the conversations were part of a larger oral history of the Kennedy presidency. But her self-confidence seems to have grown in the White House. For the first time, she became one of her husband%E2%80%99s most visible assets. Her televised tour of the White House restoration that she had initiated was watched by 56 million viewers.
%E2%80%9CSuddenly, everything that%E2%80%99d been a liability before %E2%80%94 your hair, that you spoke French, that you didn%E2%80%99t just adore to campaign, and you didn%E2%80%99t bake bread with flour up to your arms %E2%80%94 you know, everybody thought I was a snob and hated politics,%E2%80%9D she tells Mr. Schlesinger. All of that changed. %E2%80%9CI was so happy for Jack, especially now that it was only three years together that he could be proud of me then,%E2%80%9D she says. %E2%80%9CBecause it made him so happy %E2%80%94 it made me so happy. So those were our happiest years.%E2%80%9D
She humorously recounts a visit from Sukarno, the president of Indonesia, to the Kennedys%E2%80%99 private sitting room. The briefing papers she had read in preparation had mentioned that Sukarno had been flattered by Mao%E2%80%99s decision to publish his art collection. To impress Sukarno, Mrs. Kennedy asked the State Department for the volume, positioned it prominently on the table and invited him to sit on the sofa between her and Mr. Kennedy and admire the paintings.
Every single one turned out to be of a woman %E2%80%94 %E2%80%9Cnaked to the waist with a hibiscus in her hair,%E2%80%9D Mrs. Kennedy tells Mr. Schlesinger, who bursts out laughing. She says she could not believe what she was seeing. %E2%80%9CI caught Jack%E2%80%99s eye, and we were trying not to laugh at each other.%E2%80%9D Sukarno was %E2%80%9Cso terribly happy, and he%E2%80%99d say, %E2%80%98This is my second wife, and this was.%E2%80%99...%E2%80%9D Mrs. Kennedy says. %E2%80%9CHe had a sort of lecherous look%E2%80%9D and %E2%80%9Cleft a bad taste in your mouth.%E2%80%9D
Describing the night of the inauguration, she recalls that she was both recovering from a Caesarean section and exhausted. She skips dinner and takes a nap. But she finds herself unable to get out of bed to attend the inaugural balls until Dr. Janet Travell, who would become the White House physician, materializes and hands her an orange pill.
%E2%80%9CAnd then she told me it was Dexadrine,%E2%80%9D Mrs. Kennedy says
Asked if Mr. Kennedy was religious, she tells Mr. Schlesinger, %E2%80%9COh, yes,%E2%80%9D then appends a revealing qualification: %E2%80%9CWell, I mean, he never missed church one Sunday that we were married or all that, but you could see partly %E2%80%94 I often used to think whether it was superstition or not %E2%80%94 I mean, he wasn%E2%80%99t quite sure, but if it was that way, he wanted to have that on his side.%E2%80%9D (cont.)
(cont.) He would say his prayers kneeling on the edge of the bed, taking about three seconds and crossing himself. %E2%80%9CIt was just like a little childish mannerism, I suppose like brushing your teeth or something,%E2%80%9D she says. Then she adds: %E2%80%9CBut I thought that was so sweet. It used to amuse me so, standing there.%E2%80%9D\
In her foreword to the book, Caroline Kennedy says her decision to publish was prompted by the 50th anniversary of her father%E2%80%99s presidency. It would be a disservice, she said, to allow her mother%E2%80%99s perspective to be absent from the public and scholarly debate.\
People have certain impressions of her mother, Ms. Kennedy suggests in a video accompanying the electronic version of the book, but "they really don%E2%80%99t know her at all." In her printed foreword, she says, %E2%80%9Cthey don%E2%80%99t always appreciate her intellectual curiosity, her sense of the ridiculous, her sense of adventure, or her unerring sense of what was right.%E2%80%9D
No, she''s under the dirt.\
Her comments are lovely, considering she was a "high class" whore who spread for a troll.
She was a controlling mother who did not let her son pursue acting, which was his passion. Just for that reason alone I do not think she deserves respect.\
A parent should inspire their children to follow their dreams, not squash them and make them become a lawyer.
She sounds like a deranged twit. "Don''t send me away. I want to die with you and the children want to die with you. If there''s no room in the White House bunker, I''ll just stay on the lawn. I don''t want to live without you."
"Mrs. Kennedy might have been intentionally projecting the image expected of women at the time. She also knew that she was speaking for the historical record."%0D\
I don''t believe that "I want to die with you, I''ll even sit on the front lawn" shit. Jackie was nothing if not a survivor.
[quote]In her distinctive breathy cadences, an intimate tone and the impeccable diction of women of her era and class, she delivers tart commentary on former presidents, heads of state, her husband''s aides, powerful women, women reporters, even her mother-in-law.\
But where are these comments on Rose in this piece? Shit, now I''m going to have to buy the book.\
Didn''t you just know that deep down she was going to be a judgmental, snobby shrew? Of course you did. And now this proves it. :-)
[quote]Recalling a trip to India and Pakistan with her sister, Lee Radziwill, in 1962, Mrs. Kennedy says she was so appalled by what she considered to be the gaucherie of the newly appointed United States ambassador to Pakistan, Walter McConaughy, \
She evidently was very similar to her cousin, Little Edie. In other words, batshit crazy. It tends to run in families.
lol, yeah well, there goes her image of the well bred, stoic, strong, silent fiercely protective mother. She is an idiot. Too bad Caroline revealed this to the world.
Jacqueline Kennedy: perfect illustration of the maxim "Better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt".
All because Caroline didn''t want some movie to be shown? \
An apt example of truth being stranger than fiction.
[quote]The White House social secretary, Letitia Baldrige, Mrs. Kennedy tells Mr. Schlesinger, loved to pick up the phone and say things like "Send all the White House china on the plane to Costa Rica" or tell them they had to fly string beans in to a state dinner. \
The joke was, "Tish" got all the lackeys scurrying because she issued these orders in a perfect imitation of the First Lady''s voice...
I was surprised that Caroline let this out, too. It doesn''t exactly put Jackie in a favourable light. She comes off as a little too judgmental and petty.
She discouraged her son from becoming an actor because she didn''t want him to become a "fruit." I wonder if she ever came around about the gays.
I think, had Joseph Kennedy not had his stroke, there would have been no Aristotle Onassis. JK would have drenched the widow in money to keep her being the pious widow, and would have batted Ethel into line if she tried to get uppity.\
As it was, he became bedridden and lost power over his money and family. No one else was really interested in keeping Jackie around.
I heard some of this this morning on GMA and I have to say Katie Holmes really did a great job on capturing her voice. I didn''t realize how spot on she was until I heard the tapes this morning.
I''m sick of this Camelot bullshit.
"Too bad Caroline revealed this to the world."%0D\
Oh how naive some of you are. %0D\
Jackie O was in publishing and she knew the value of her name. I would not be surprised if she negotiated the basic terms of the contract for post-death exposure.%0D
"It doesn''t exactly put Jackie in a favourable light. She comes off as a little too judgmental and petty."\
A [italic]little[/italic]??? That''s putting it mildly.
It''s hard to hear what you''re saying when you''ve got that tinfoil hat on, r21.
[quote] A parent should inspire their children to follow their dreams, not squash them and make them become a lawyer.%0D\
The "let''s quash squash" Troll
For all of her biting criticisms of others, Jacqleeeeen went on to become a scheming golddigger.%0D\
Jacqleeeeen and Teddy Kennedy caused a scene in Aritotle Onassis'' funeral procession trying to divide up the money right there in the limousine. Christina Onassis was so disgusted with the Jacqleeeeen and Teddy that she got out of the car and got into another one and refused to ride with these two vultures.
I always felt that she was all hype and no substance.\
I can see that I was right.
I just finished the book Nemisis. She was a horrible, selfish person. \
And all that devoted housewife prattle is total bullshit. She only stayed with JFK because she was a whore and whores do what they are paid to do. \
And she had fucked Aristotle Onassis BEFORE JFK was shot.
Jackie didn''t intend it this way, but these interviews reveal more about her than anyone else.
"The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. is "a phony" whom electronic eavesdropping has found arranging encounters with women."%0D\
That sentence alone boggles the mind.
What''s most amazing to me about this is, it''s not Hoover''s wiretaps. She recorded this with the goal of it being heard by the public and used by historians.\
This isn''t private, bitchy gossip.
Used by historians? For what?%0D\
What great perspective does Jackie have? Amazing, all of the encounters and travels this woman has had and she comes off as a complete airhead. There''s nothing in here that''s remotely interesting. Nasty opinions and vague, one dimensional thoughts do not count.%0D\
And she piles on the "Camelot" bullshit so much that her husbands presidency comes across like a bad episode of "Mad Men".
Her comments don''t make her look good, but they do show that she would be a welcome addition to Datalounge (if still breathing).\
This is very bitchy:\
About Nikita S. Khrushchev''s daughter-in-law:\
"She looked like some Wehrmacht blonde who ran a concentration camp!"\
[The inclusion of "Wehrmacht" makes this witty.]
The stage whispering while casting aspersions about potential lesbionic ladies says a lot about this airhead.
Turns out I was the interesting cousin.
Edie waiving at Al through the lens of time...
This is just more proof that practically every celebrity or public personality who makes him or herself look good in the media is far different in private. Frankly, from reading all that I think Jackie might have been a major pill popper.
[quote] Don''t send me away. I want to die with you and the children want to die with you. If there''s no room in the White House bunker, I''ll just stay on the lawn. I don''t want to live without you.%0D\
Let''s put what superficially appears to be an over-the-top comment in perspective. This was her (alleged) sentiment during the Cuban Missile Crisis where the world was thought to be on the verge of a nuclear exchange between the then-two superpowers. Everyone was going to die, and Mrs. Kennedy wanted the family to be together, not apart, when the inevitable death occurred.
[quote]There''s nothing in here that''s remotely interesting. Nasty opinions and vague, one dimensional thoughts do not count.%0D\
What the hell are you doing on Datalounge, then?
[quote] She discouraged her son from becoming an actor because she didn''t want him to become a "fruit." I wonder if she ever came around about the gays.%0D\
I really have to wonder about posters who have so little historical perspective. This kind of talk is is how most people - yes, even liberals - thought of "the homosexual" in 1964. So cut Jackie a little slack.
The Daily Mail has been publishing these excerpts and Jackie is coming across like Kim Kardashian without the money and black dick.%0D\
Why did Caroline do this again? Did she have a complicated relationship with her mother and wanted to punish her memory because she can''t live up to it?%0D\
Or is she just a bitch?
Listening to excerpts of the tapes, it''s amazing how much Jackie sounds like her crazy cousin Little Edie. Their voices were almost identical.
She criticized MLK for being an adulter while JFK was fucking Marilyn Monroe and countless others.
" So cut Jackie a little slack."\
FUCK you. I''m not cutting anyone any slack for their bigotry. There were enlightened people, even in the sixties and seventies, who did not hate gay people. She was a complete asshole.\
I read her comments in the Times today and was astounded at the stupidity she exhibited. But when it got to the bit about her calling Martin Luther King Jr. a "phony", I practically jumped out of my seat. Here was a person who lived her entire life as a LIE, all for appearances'' sake, calling one of the greatest men who''d ever lived a "phony". And based on what...his affairs?!! This is the same woman who tried to make her husband...a guy who was fucking some other woman while she was miscarrying a pregnancy in the hospital...into a fucking saint. HATE her. And I hate the fact that she was ever considered some sort of icon.\
Jack Kennedy wasn''t fit to kiss Dr. King''s ass, and Jackie Kennedy was a complete and total moron.
r42, you have it exactly backwards. MLK was a phony and a womanizer. That does not make his importance to history or his accomplishments any less impactful. His place in history is secure. But people are complex and our heroes and icons were flawed human beings, just like us. It is documented that he cheated on his wife repeatedly. Did you not KNOW that? And even if you do, it doesn't change one thing about the work he accomplished and what his legacy, ultimately, is.
Jackie Kennedy was an elegant, educated, calculating, intelligent, sophisticated and powerful woman, moreso by her connections to powerful men, of course. And she was flawed. She could be a snob (but I, too, can be a bit of a snob so I understand her.) Who would not want to live in a more civilized, polite and refined world? The world, especially the world of power, is vulgar and cruel. I am sure that people, powerful important people, let her down once she met them, personally. Perhaps SHE just held too high of an expectation of people. Heroes fall hard. (Just like Jackie?) She was raised in a rarified world, after all. Just as YOU seem to revile HER once you hear these "new" revelations about her, so she might have thought the same of others. Once the veneer comes off, things are never what they seem. But Jacqueline Kennedy was not all good or all bad. And whatever she was, she remains a style icon, a revered First Lady and has a lauded place in the history of the United States. You can hate her all you want and it won't change a thing. And you are also in the minority.
I always roll my eyes at the posters who seem to "hate" Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy Onassis. I think it is a combo platter of envy, jealousy and resentment that SHE got to live the life so many homosexual men seem to strive for: a life of privilege and glamour and a bottomless wallet. Never mind that her husband's brains were blown out into her lap and she had to be a beacon of strength for an entire nation for awhile. In your parlance, the broad had strength and balls, in addition to brains and ambition.
Ah. Just more delicious proof of what an out of touch idiot Caroline is.%0D\
Unless she really hated her prettier mother.%0D\
And, yea, Jackie was very superficial. I remember when my mother first heard her speak during the 1960 campaign - my very democratic mother from NYC - she was completely turned off by what she described as a phony finishing school affect. My mother could spot a phony a mile off. Though she thought she did a nice job raising her children she knew too much about the Kennedys to ever be impressed with them.
[quote]This kind of talk is is how most people - yes, even liberals - thought of "the homosexual" in 1964.\
Why, even by 1983 we were still calling them "faggots" as a term of affection!
[quote]She was a controlling mother who did not let her son pursue acting, which was his passion. ... A parent should inspire their children to follow their dreams, not squash them and make them become a lawyer.\
How was it possible for an American mother in the 20th century to "not let" her son pursue acting, & "make" him become a lawyer? She may have controlled the purse strings, but people who truly have a "passion" find a way to follow it on their own.
[quote]I think it is a combo platter of envy, jealousy and resentment that SHE got to live the life so many homosexual men seem to strive for: a life of privilege and glamour and a bottomless wallet.\
So you know that jealousy and envy are different things. Whose affections, then, do you think they are jealous of? JFK''s? Ari Onassis''s? Maurice Tempelsman''s?
[quote]She could be a snob (but I, too, can be a bit of a snob so I understand her.)... She was raised in a rarified world, after all.\
Clearly you''re not a snob about bad spelling.
[quote] " So cut Jackie a little slack."%0D\
[quote] FUCK you. I''m not cutting anyone any slack for their bigotry. There were enlightened people, even in the sixties and seventies, who did not hate gay people. She was a complete asshole.%0D\
Future generations will laugh at any number of things that we, early, enlightened 21st century people, believed. I hope they''ll be a litle more sensitive than ahistorical narcissists like R42.
See, I would''ve expected her to call MLK uppity.
R43. Because you seem to "understand" Jackie, you seem to overlook her flaws. True, no one person is only one thing, but these comments made by her do paint her as a decent person particularly to have said some of the things she did to a historian.%0D\
Criticizing someone to a friend in private is one thing, but saying it to an historian knowing it would eventually come out demonstrates the characteristics of an unfeeling, coniving, rather viscious and careless, social-climbing hypocrite.%0D\
Apparently, Lady Macbeth was alive and well in Camelot.
[quote]do paint her as a decent person %0D\
I meant "do not."
Jackie was money hungry, always was. It was well known that Ari came to hate Jackie after he married her and regretted doing so. Christina Onassis paid Jackie $20 million after Ari died, basically to go the hell away.
She struck me as a non-troublesome person. Her attack on the poor Ambassador of Pakistan was with US interests abroad in mind, but I doubt she would have troubled someone in the office who was just there to do a job, unlike some wives who enter their husband''s office with visions that they inflict on their staff.\
She was also a man''s woman, so she would never burden other women with her needs only because they had ladyparts.\
I don''t think there were any complaints about her from her neighbors -- she lived quietly when allowed.\
I like people like that.
[quote]Her attack on the poor Ambassador of Pakistan was with US interests abroad in mind, \
She was just being a fucking snob and you know it, too.
save the lies for elsewhere--we see right through you
So has anyone yet dsicovered the ungenerous comments she makes in this new book about Rose Kennedy?
Ethel Skakel Kenn... er, I mean, "anonymous"
That bitch had no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
and r57 should know...
I''m shocked by her sniping at FDR.%0D\
But then, Eleanor was NOT a fan of the Kennedys, either. The fact they were Catholic supposedly caused her great concern.
As R43 was blowing champagne bubbles out of her ass while trilling the praises of Mrs. Onassis, I wondered about that "rarified world" she referred to - a world of pomposity, hardscrabble pretentiousness and desperate drive for a good marriage, rampant alcoholism, exposure to education with the effect of surface polish but no deep cleaning, and reflexive hauteur.
I appreciated the woman as a public figure who dealt with popularity, betrayal and horror, and made a life for herself and her children. She seemed, finally, to have a life she could call her own. I've known other wealthy widows of who built careers and philanthropic interests and personal relationships into a life they could call their own. Mrs. Onassis was just the first among many - and she wasn't the brightest, best, wisest, kindest, or most decent of the bunch.
And, R43, by the end of your screed your butt was out of champagne and the bubbles had a nasty burnt umber cast to them. Why don't you shove the bottle back up your ass so you don't leave a trail and take your homophobia out of here?
r 40: I KNOW!!! She sounds exactly like Little Eadie!
[quote]In the book Jakie comments in one interview on the suspicious nature of her mother-in-law Rose Kennedy, a devout Catholic, and says she always demanded to know if someone was Catholic. "There seems to be about all these Irish %E2%80%94 they always seem to have a sort of persecution thing about them, don''t they?" she asks.\
Ethel, so far this is the only thing I''ve seen about Rose Kennedy.
[quote]As [[R43]] was blowing champagne bubbles out of her ass while trilling the praises of Mrs. Onassis, I wondered about that "rarified world" she referred to - \
It was a world where you may not have been faithful to your wife, and you may not been able to pay your debts, and you may not have been able even walk your daughter to the altar because you were so incredibly goddamn drunk all the time... but, by God, it was a world where you knew which fork to use!
"Black Jack" Bouvier, the very figure of culture and refinement
What I want to know is what she said on the other tapes--especially about JFK''s assasination
Why do people insist on deifying some materialistic old cunt who''s biggest accomplishment in life was...um...err...uh....
Precisely, R63. And, for all their wealth, the Kennedys notoriously remain lace curtain Irish, the definition of which being they''re the ones who take the dishes out of the sink before they piss in it.\
With apologies to the Irish of Ireland - referring here to those beyond the Pale.
She was our Princess Diana.
Baaaate your tongue, r67
The decayed corpse of Anna Nicole Smith
R49- we''re already laughing at you, hunny bunny. You do know that there were gay activists even back then? That there were enlightened people fighting for gay rights? Do you honestly think that Jackie never encountered an openly gay person? Do you know who designed her outfits?\
You''re the "ahistorical" (not a real word) narcissist, asshole. She knew gay people. Yet she remained homophobic. There was even a story, told years later by singer Carly Simon, about her tittering over whether or not Michael Jackson was a "homosexual", and the story made her sound homophobic.\
She was a bitchy airhead who thought herself the superior of everyone she met. Oh, and what about her comment about lesbians from the same interview?\
You''re an idiot. Truly.
Will we be able to buy the tapes?
I hope someone does a Jackie/Edie vocal dance mix.
Boy, a lot of angry peasants posting here. The thing is, Jacqueline would probably have been nice and polite to each one of you heathens.
[quote]Boy, a lot of angry peasants posting here. The thing is, Jacqueline would probably have been nice and polite to each one of you heathens.\
To your face anyway. And she called MLK phony.
Bitter queens on DL are nothing new.
[quote] You''re the "ahistorical" (not a real word) narcissist, asshole. %0D\
a%C2%B7his%C2%B7tor%C2%B7ic%E2%80%82 %E2%80%82/%CB%8Ce%C9%AAh%C9%AA%CB%88st%C9%94r%C9%AAk, -%CB%88st%C9%92r-/ Show Spelled[ey-hi-stawr-ik, -stor-] Show IPA %0D\
without concern for history or historical development; indifferent to tradition. %0D
[quote]I always roll my eyes at the posters who seem to "hate" Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy Onassis. I think it is a combo platter of envy, jealousy and resentment that SHE got to live the life so many homosexual men seem to strive for: a life of privilege and glamour and a bottomless wallet.%0D\
THIS. Honest to god I think many, if not most, gay men believe they are entitled to live the life of a socialite and they''re pissed when life doesn''t work out that way.
[quote]Boy, a lot of angry peasants posting here. The thing is, Jacqueline would probably have been nice and polite to each one of you heathens.\
The whole point of this entire thread is that she would have been nice to your face, then talked shit about you to Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. so he could record it on the public record for the ages.
Have they said what [bold]her[/bold] views of LBJ were? I think I''ve only read what JFK and RFK thought of him. This is about the same time Jackie and LBJ were flirting on the phone, right?
[quote]by the end of your screed your butt was out of champagne and the bubbles had a nasty burnt umber cast to them. Why don''t you shove the bottle back up your ass so you don''t leave a trail %0D\
Pure DL gold
For my money the only valid response was 43. I think that the ensuing responses only affirm that.
And for [bold]my[/bold] money, r80 and r43 are just creepy Jackie toadies, kissing her (dead) ass because she fulfills their fantasies about what it would be like to be a rich white woman.
I like her better after reading this.\
Her whole breathy voice, lobotomized schtick was creepy. Glad to see she had a working brain and personality.\
She sounds like fun. I''d love to sit there an bitch about important people with her. "Prune"... lol. The MLK thing isn''t cute, but I suppose it is the definition of phony to call yourself a "Reverend" and sleaze around on your wife. But Jackie was the definition of "hypocrite" to make that comment, unless she truly didn''t know her husband was cut from the same cloth.
keep in mind this was recorded YEARS before Bobby was killed and MLK Jr.%0D\
She would likely have evolved in her views by then; and if she was only pointing out his hypocrisy for cheating while preaching morality, she had a point.
Yes, i know Jack did it to her too
Diane Sawyer is getting the "Lucy in Mame Vaseline Lens Treatment".
She sounds like a politician''s wife, mouthing whatever Kennedy family talking points she had learned from her husband. Remember, she was part of an incredible political machine--she wasn''t Joe Kennedy''s favorite for nothing.
I wonder how much her money-grubbing ways were influenced by her chronically in debt, dissipated father. Reportedly, she adored him or at least idealized him which is easy since he wasn''t around. He was too drunk to walk her down the aisle and habitually too drunk to provide for his daughter. Didn''t most of her schooling and whatever she received come from step father?%0D\
She also cheated with a married man, Maurice Tempelsman, so I guess her ''evolved views'' didn''t pertain to hurting other people.
R85, it sounds more like Camelot, her own making, to me.
Why did she whisper stomach problems?
[quote]She also cheated with a married man, Maurice Tempelsman, so I guess her ''evolved views'' didn''t pertain to hurting other people.%0D\
Wasn''t (or isn''t) Tempelsman an Orthodox Jew who didn''t end his marriage for "religious reasons." A lot of marriages end, but the participants don''t divorce because of the mores of the group.
IIRC, Tempelsman had a religious divorce but not a civil one.
Tempelsman left his wife for Jackie. In 1984 he moved nearby to Jackie, moving in with her finally in 1988. Never legally divorced, he and his wife had a "get," a Jewish orthodox declaration of separation.
[quote] Didn''t most of her schooling and whatever she received come from step father? %0D\
Louis Auchincloss really didn''t have much to do with her, and Jackie''s mother Janet Auchincloss was a nagging bitch who was all but impossible. Jackie''s home life growing up was really shitty.
R82 wins the "biggest creep on Datalounge" award for the month. I can only imagine what kind of hideous, amoral golem you are.
I love how she whispers the word "stomach" as if she is some Victorian prude and she is saying "cock."\
And this Diane Sawyer thing is so for up Caroline''s ass. \
JFK went yachting around the Mediterranean while his wife miscarried, not to relax with his father but to fuck a boatload of women. According to friends with him, it was a "floating bordello."\
And he took his time getting back to her.\
It wasn''t his baby. It was William Holden''s!
Diane Sawyer says that Jackie always pronounced her name "Jhack-o-leen." \
So why is it that her husband pronounces is "Jack-o-lynn" in all the clips?\
Did she never say her own name until after he died?
[quote]Why did she whisper stomach problems?\
It was understood that she was euphemizing colitis. It wasn''t seemly for a lady to be talking about dookie.
Couldn''t she have just screamed, "PROBLEMS TAKING A DUMP!!!!"?
I thought it was very interesting how she said, "He loved everyone. He loved me. He loved my sister. I didn''t feel any jealousy." \
JFK slept with Jackie''s sister when he took Lee to Europe because Jackie was pregnant.\
Of course, Jackie got back at him by sleeping with Bobbie Kennedy.
Jackie started sleeping with Onassis, who Lee was having an affair with at the time, in October of 1963.
I thought the story was that Janet made sure that Jack got drunk by ensuring his supply of booze. She didn''t want him at the wedding and sure enough her tempting him sealed the deal.%0D\
They sound like awful people. Actually Janet lived around the corner from me. I had no idea that the pink suit was in her house all those years. Spooky. %0D\
My mom had the same issues with her dad but a different reaction - she hated or resented her absent father, she never idealized him - but I also think that as in my mom''s case the female relatives wanted him out of the picture so he wouldn''t interfere with their rearing of beautiful daughters.
What a phony she was! Gurgling with an open-mouthed smile to Chet Huntley how much she was in love with JFK... so creepy and dishonest.
She was our greatest First Lady, too bad she died so young and didn''t give interviews in her later years.
R105 It is just as well she didn''t give interviews.\
Better to be thought a fool and say nothing than to speak an prove that you are.\
She was s selfish, shallow, money-grubbing twit.
I don''t have any dirt on Jackie O, but I grew up in the neighborhood her mother lived in. She always dressed up to the nines when she walked her dogs. Don''t think any of her children or grandchildren bothered with her much. My mom was somewhat friendly with Mrs. Auchincloss. The one big scandal was that Mrs. A had dementia and ran off and married some man . The rumors were her children were upset about the quick marriage.
She did a few things of note. She renovated the White House when it was badly in need of someone of discerning taste. Her work expanded into an ongoing preservation of the place in a manner befitting a national monument.\
She called attention to America''s artists and also its poor in an era when both were generally overlooked.\
She became a real working editor, so they say, which is to her credit. She was also instrumental in saving Grand Central Station.
R108, I think it was someone from the DuPont family that advised Jackie in renovating the White House. He was extremely meticulously knowledgeable about antiques, especially American antiques and history as well. He was highly instrumental in that project which Jackie took all of the credit.
I think this revelation on Jackie reveals she was more of a manipulative, conniving bitch than what knew before. Also, the Kennedys seem like they were the biggest cons in American history of politics because they put this charade by deceiving the American people into thinking they were this conjured up BS image that all along was far from the truth.
Its amazing to me how Jackie cuts down Charles De Gaulle by calling him an egomaniac in her interview, yet he gave her a priceless evening purse made out of 24 kart gold that she happily accepted and used everywhere. The purse was auctioned off at her famous auction in the 90's for a huge amount of money. What a complete piece of dirt! So Jackie and Ari were two of a kind.
After reading this interview, maybe the assassination that took place that day in Dallas was really set for Jackie rather than for Jack.
Why is she so judgmental about the fact that Martin Luther King slept around when she did the same thing?
I would never have imagined reading such comments about the sainted Kennedys. It took fifty years.
has it been documented that Bobby and Jackie had sex?
True enough, R109, I know the White House Restoration (I think that was her preferred word) was very much a collaborative effort. Still, she got the ball rolling. The place was furnished like a hotel after it was re-built in the early fifties. She helped transform it into a living museum. A lot of old treasures came back to the White House at her urging.
Diane Sawyer was a friend with Jackie and so naturally Diane Sawyer was and is a major ass kisser to Jackie and Caroline. Diane has always been a major phony.
Jackie whispered all the time when she spoke because this was a manipulation tactic of hers to manipulate men. Men loved that little girl whispery voice that she put on, and she used it to her full advantage. She was an extreme manipulator. Her father always told Jackie, all ways hold back and reveal very little about yourself. Keep them wanting to know more about you and create this mystique. That is why she never did interviews and she become unreachable and untouchable to the public. As a result, this made her extremely fascinating to the public hungry to know more about her. In this interview, she most likely wanted to maintain this image in her place in history with this whispery voice. Also, to keep this mystique generating through out her life, she never allowed pictures to be published of her smoking nor of any recordings of her swearing which she both did very, very often.
I once heard a telephone conversation she had with someone about Michael Jackson's autobiography back in the 80's. She spoke in a lower voice and she said, how was I ever assigned to work on this piece of shit.
J. Edgar Hoover probably could have answered that, R112.
R110, this is just a guess but maybe it had to do with the fact that MLK was a Reverend. \
What did Jackie mean when she called the Prime Minister of India a "prune"? Was it because of his skin color? was she hinting he was gay? What did this loony tune meant by that?!
She was talking about his daughter.%0D\
Man you guys are harsh!%0D\
She was hardly as hateful and awful as most of these comments would seem to indicate.%0D\
[quote]What did Jackie mean when she called the Prime Minister of India a "prune"?\
She was referring to Indira Gandhi. It means ill-tempered.
She was the original imperious, stroppy cunt!
That voice! .. Jackie could have played Billie Dawn in "Born Yesterday"!
I found the tape semgents that aired on TV to be quite striking. For all of her faults, Jackie at least had a sense of ambition and history. She actively created a legacy for herself and her country. She could have easily sat back and played the politician's wife as her sisters-in-law did.%0D
In his eulogy for her, Ted stated that she was "her own person". Jackie was an American original, worts and all. She was one of the first to synthesize political power with celebrity. She was also groundbreaking in her use of fashion in cultivating a public image. I would argue that she was the first modern female "politician" of the 20th Century (or perhaps the second, after Eleanor Roosevelt).%0D
From the excerpts aired, I do believe Jackie and John loved each other. They showed their love in a dysfunctional, upper-crust way, but you can hear the affection in Jackie's voice. %0D
It was also very interesting to hear her assessments of other powerful women as well as her views on gender roles. Talk about a snapshot in time! %0D
I was left wondering something, though. What happened with Caroline? She inherited none of her parents' looks, charisma, or intelligence. She even struck me as a bit of a simpleton in her interview with Sawyer. I was reminded of her disastrous bid for NY Senator a few years back. You would think, with all of the time she spent with Jackie, that something would have rubbed off?
r 114: "Jackie Kennedy imitated my voice when she did the tour of the White House on TV" - %0D\
What is a Bobbie Kennedy? Is that a home permanent kit?%0D\
Could Jackie have devoted her energy to John Jr? Caroline was kind of a pudgy girl who was bright enough, but I believed she recognized star quality in John which she cultivated. Your thoughts? %0D\
Oh wait, and she was a man''s woman, so perhaps that was reflected in which child she favored.%0D\
And no he didn''t have to be bright to have star quality
R121- you''re really a sad case. Very sad.
Wasn''t JFK having an affair with Marina Oswald?%0D\
Sorry for my ignorance, but I thought I had heard that and that Geroge DeMorschildt(sp) knew Jack and Jackie and had introduced Jack to Marina and he took a shine to her. It may be the most sensible motive for what happened.
[quote]It was understood that she was euphemizing colitis. It wasn''t seemly for a lady to be talking about dookie.\
Remember that this was a woman who ran the water in the bathroom sink so that others wouldn''t hear her pinching a log.
I love how you hear ice cubes clinking constantly. \
I read that Jackie had a long affair with Mr. Vodka.
And she never farted in public, ever.
How could she? She''s anus-less.
[quote]What happened with Caroline? She inherited none of her parents'' looks, charisma, or intelligence. \
She''s a fine legal scholar and author. She''s just no politician.
R121 is right. Jackie redefined what it meant to be a woman in the early 1960s. Following her lead, a generation of calculating bitches showed us that there are 3 things you can never be too much of:\
Tacky Ho (nee Boutonniere)
After watching the ABC show on this, I like Jackie Kennedy all the more. Loved it that she can dish. She seemed pretty astute to me. %0D\
And she had style. Incredible style. No one matches her in that area. No politicians wife anyway.
Caroline is very classy. She is one of the few in that family line with no scandal attached to her.
After watching the ABC show on this, I like Jackie Kennedy all the more. Loved it that she can dish.\
Oh really? The part when she cut down MLK as well? when her husband was screwing anything in a skirt?
"What happened with Caroline? She inherited none of her parents'' looks, charisma, or intelligence."%0D\
She has JFK''s gingery coloring. And she has the Kennedy teeth. From her mother she inherited her snobbishness and "money lust" as one author put it. She''s rich as hell, but no amount of money is enough for her.
I totally agree. I loved hearing her dish in her eloquent, roundabout way. I''m thinking of ordering the CD set being advertised.
Did Lee Radziwill put on the same whispery, baby voice as Jackie?
Her voice is so strange because she''s got the same accent that''s a weird mix of Lawn Guyland and the upper-class Mid-Atlantic accent that her cousin Little Edie had, but then she''s got that breathy little-girl babyvoice thing going on too.\
Her voice announces simultaneously:\
(1) I am from money\
(2) I am from Long Island\
(3) I''m a silly little baby girl and won''t threaten any men
I thought it was long established that the breath-y little girl voice was a complete put-on that she assumed in 1960. Haven''t several people close to her said that in private she spoke at the normal volume albeit in a flat tone with an unlovely accent?
That'' everything she wants to convey.
Dick, I jusht don'' like her. Jack I like. I do. I dodilly do. No, I don'' mean like that. But he''s a man. Her, sheesh a ritzhy titzhy bitchz. I mean, DIck, DICK -\
SHE LOOKSH LIKE ONE OF THOSHE GODDAMN FANSHY GOLDFISH WITH THE BULGY EYES LOOKING OFF IN TWO DIRECTIONSH!\
An I''m jus a can of jack mackerel, right, DIck? Dick?
Mrs. Richard Nixon, The Waldorf-Astoria, December 2, 1960
That'' = That''s\
The accent is hers. The whispery- baby voice was put on for R139 (3).
She ran the sink when she pissed. So nobody could here her splashing around in the toilet. She had a screw loose.
Jackie''s natural speaking voice was a lower register, and had a monotone affect. The Lawn Guyland accent was also more pronounced in private. As Jackie got older, the cigarettes made her voice deeper. I also heard that answering machine message the above poster mentioned. It was Jackie''s speaking voice in the late 1980s, and she didn''t sound much like she did on these tapes.
I saw Mike Nichols with Jackie O at the Delacourte Theatre in the 1980s. I think we were all seeing Pirates of Penzance with Kevin Klein and Linda Ronstadt. It''s the outdoor Shakespeare in the Park theatre in NYC. They sat just beneath the lighting booth. Every head in the place swiveled in their direction before the lights dimmed, so it was just two people having a conversation with the rest of the theatre watching them have it. The man next to me and my husband sent his little daughter to get an autograph. I hate that shit - send the kid, so the target looks like crap for turning down the kid. The kid came back empty-handed. %0D\
I saw her a couple of times after that. She had thin legs and an ENORMOUS head (like, Stewie Griffin-sized head) - you couldn''t miss her, she looked so much like herself. But Mike Nichols was one of the people she was dating at the time (post-Onassis). Nichols is now married to Sawyer. Nichols never gave up his Kennedy toadyism. Sawyer''s just reflecting that.
I also saw Caroline. I was in Kenneth's - not a place where I got anything done but eyebrows at the time (I was new to getting them done and didn't know there were a billion places just as good). It was in a townhouse and the clinicians all wore white nurse-type dresses. I'm tall (5'8"). I was sitting in the carpeted hall, waiting for my appointment. There was a tall, LARGE lady standing in the hall with her back to me - she wasn't fat, but she was more like you'd picture a stereotype of a field hockey player - really SOLID - especially the back. She was wearing something like a bright blue loden coat and red pants - red and blue and not 1980's type - just a little weird and especially for a place like Kenneth's with all the size 6's (size 6 was the 1980's size zero) and upper east side chic. She was pretty substantial, like a Clydesdale. There's a clinician also standing in the hall. A second employee comes into the hall and addresses the larger lady - "Miss - are you waiting for ______" and she names an employee. Or her question could have been "Are you a friend of _____"? It was a what is your business here question. So the lady turns around and says "No, I'm a client." So what sticks out - one, me - a client, and the other clinician practically freeze, and we're already still, because it's Caroline Kennedy - looking exactly like Caroline Kennedy except way bigger than I'd have guessed. The person who'd asked her the question is clueless - doesn't know who she is, still. And, she had one of the ugliest speaking voices ever. Coarse. A - wow, that is one unfortunate voice kind of thing. And this is the upper east side, where nasal whines are the neighborhood anthem.
Caroline sounds like a lady golfer.
Nothing is ever as it seems.
%E2%80%9CMy first impression%E2%80%94and it never changed%E2%80%94was that I was in the presence of a very great, tragic actress.%E2%80%A6 There was a weekend in American history when we needed to be united in our sadness,%E2%80%9D he later wrote, and Jacqueline Kennedy had %E2%80%9Cprovided us with an unforgettable performance as the nation%E2%80%99s First Lady.%E2%80%9D\
Elegant and lovely at the first viewing.
Sadly Jackie Kennedy Onassis cared more about saving Grand Central Station than the homeless who lived in it.
R144, that was very common among women from high society. Sunny Von Bulow did the same thing. They thought any type of sounds from the bathroom was considered vulgar and crass.
[quote] She''s a fine legal scholar and author. She''s just no politician.%0D\
Caroline is nothing of the sort. Those are simplistic little how to books on the law that she couldn''t even write on her own. Please don''t insult true legal scholarship by suggesting she engages in it. %0D\
I don''t think she''s written anything on her own except maybe Postcards My Mother Sent Me - lol!
So does anyone what she has to say about: Ethel, the Kennedy sisters, Rose, Lem?
She sounds exactly like Little Edie. Completely insane.
MLK was a great man who delivered full freedom to African Americans and refused violence when he had the power to raise racial civil war in America.%0D\
....he was also crooked, a bit of a phony and a complete and total womanizer.%0D\
He was human, both saint and sinner.%0D\
Deal with it.
You do get she did this interview shortly after having her husband''s brains sprayed on her lap.\
She is trying to make sense of her life as a person who has had their life ripped apart and needs to continue.\
Jackie is flawed but I love her all the more for it.
DL posters criticizing a catty gossip! That''s rich.\
So, I read the further text about Jackie daring to criticize MLK, and it appears:\
- Jackie was told MLK was drunk and cracking jokes at her husband''s funeral. What kind of wife (not long after her husband''s death) would be ok with that guy?\
- Jackie was told he was a sleazebag to his wife and arranging an orgy. What do you think any woman thinks about that type of guy, especially one who goes around as a respected reverend? Especially given she was probably projecting some subconscious fury at her husband for doing the same thing to her.\
- the above (his womanizing) is the truth, even acknowledged by people who revere his work (including me). The man was human and had a great side and the side that most men "of power/charisma" have.\
She supposedly greatly respected him later in life.\
But by all means, don''t let reality get in the way of your stone throwing.
How could JBK be a homophobe? Jack''s "best friend" Lem Billings according to Jackie " Lem moved in with us after the honeymoon and never moved out." The secret service refered to Lem as " Jack''s other wife." Lem was queer as $3 bill and everyone new it. When Jackie was out of town he "slept" with JFK in his bedroom in the WH. When the old queen died of too much%0D\
booze and coke and rent boys in the 80''s Jackie and the whole family attended his funeral. '' Jack loved Lem and Lem loved Jack." said by the "homophobic" Jackie Kennedy. Homophobe? I think not. Woman of her times. You betcha.
R162 (Lemmer), everything in your post supports that JFK wasn't homophobic, it says nothing about how Jackie felt.
"she was sometimes frustrated by his omnipresence. "He has been a houseguest every weekend of my married life," she told the White House usher."
-Jack and Lem
[quote]Homophobe? I think not. Woman of her times. You betcha.
Although married, the Chief Usher of the White House. J.B. West, was a known homosexual (The FBI discovered that he sometimes allowed groups of his gay male friends to tour the residence late at night.)
He wrote an amusing book about his years as head honcho in the East Wing. Clearly Jackie was his favorite First Lady and she seems to have adored him as well. The very weekend of Lucy Baines Johnson's White house wedding, friends of Jackie's arranged to have Mr. West "kidnapped" from the White House to attend a shipboard party for the former First Lady. It was not lost on Jackie that he blew off the Johnsons to be with her instead.
West wrote that he went directly from the party to the White House to work the wedding, putting in over 36 fabulous hours without sleep. Of course he doesn't mention this, but one gets the impression that West may have enjoyed the ministrations of "Dr. Feelgood" Max Jacobson, the quack who allegedly shot up the Kennedys with speed routinely during their White House years.
Is Caroline still with her husband Ed Schlossberg? The last I read (and it may have been here) is that they were still married but leading "separate lives."
I love how Jackie says, I was told this or I was told that. Its her way of saying, look I'm innocent it wasn't me it was him or them who said it. She does speak a bit of what she thought of people but its very trivial BS. She tries to come off like this innocent naive flower,Please!
R39/R87 is a freeper plant.
" DeGaulle was this egomaniac..just such a bitter spiteful old man." We'll second that:
Modest little flowers are we all.
Is it true that JFK gave her STDs on more than one occasion?
What about those LARGE and MASSIVE FEET she had that were so hard to fit?
What does she say about Ethel?
Ethel was the one who said something about Jackie's feet being too large.
Jackie wore a size eleven shoe.
She was not even all that tall.
Those are some big-assed feet!
He was a phony and a womanizer. That's a known fact. His doctoral thesis was almost wholly plagiarized. He doesn't deserve the "Dr." title in any shape, form, or fashion. That fact, however, does not diminish all he did for civil right. Though, Thurgood Marshall and Eleanor Roosevelt deserve equal credit with Pastor King for the gains made in civil rights.
[quote]Is it true that JFK gave her STDs on more than one occasion?
I wouldn't be surprised. I also wouldn't be surprised to hear she got STDs from William Holden, Gianni Agnelli, Ari Onassis, etc.
So, she probably gave as well as she got.
Has anyone pointed out that Indira Ghandi, the PM of India, was a woman?
R179, next thing you'll be telling us Nehru was a jacket.
R179, does anyone need to have that pointed out?
As far as I'm concern, Jackie sounds like the major phony verses those she accuse to be phony and having major issues! This woman had a lot of affairs during her marriage, and especially her husband had a lot of affairs. She portrayed this image of a pristine clean lady like image. She is also a major phony because all of these people in history that she met, she praised them how wonderful they were. In reality she said shit behind their backs.
I think when she married Onassis she revealed her true colors what a greedy, power hunger, backstabbing tramp because Onaisss was consider sort of an enemy of the US. Also, these tapes solidify what a piece of garbage she was to a greater extent. She didn't give a rat's ass about anyone but number #1! I bet when Onassis gave her pearls she probably ran them against her teeth to make sure they were real. She didn’t refuse the very valuable 24-karat gold evening purse De Gaulle gave her, and she received priceless presents from many others she put down, which she was allowed to keep. This seems like Caroline was getting revenge at her mother because I don’t believe anyone who loves his or her parent would release such tapes. She reminds me of the typical high society snob!
R183, I read in Wikipedia that Lem had a room in the White House. Was JFK having an affair with Lem? This set up is really unusual.
Lem was a no strings attached pal to JFK since they were children
He was like a brother to him and was his one and only good pal outside of his family. They could confide in one another and all of that without Joe Kennedy's 'teachings' hanging over JFK's head. Maybe that makes sense?
Maybe they fucked? Who knows?
But the healthiest thing JFK ever did was at least have the one friend who was just plainly his friend and nothing more.
Of course he was hot R187. Looks like it was summer when this pic was taken. :P
Lem Billings blew JFK regularly for many years.
It was a one way deal.
Is that it?
Out of eight hours of taped conversation, is the little bit of gossip shown on the ABC special were the most interesting parts?
Now I know why she went for those big bouffant coifs...without them her head and face looked enormous and quite misshapen.
R184 sounds like a total freak. Kind of like a character from a John Waters film.
R114/116/184 and on and on, her husband and brother-in-law had both been assassinated within 5 years and she had 2 young children. She was desperate to get away. She was not a tramp. That interview took place almost 50 years ago. Also, try learning some history, like the fact that Diane Sawyer worked for Richard Nixon, who, in case you don't know this either, was a Republican. And, dumbass, describing someone as a prune means the person has no sense of humor. Just give up and get off this thread. You are embarrassing yourself.
[quote]She was desperate to get away.
Jackie was a snob and she was greedy as hell.
Not bullshit, R195. It's the conventional wisdom. And if you'd were with the closest member of your family when his head was blown off and then had another relative also be assassinated within a few years, you might not want to stick around either.
I should be more specific.
If you mean Jacqueline wanted to get away to a private island- fine.
If you are referring to her saying, "I hate this country. I despise America and I don’t want my children to live here anymore. If they’re killing Kennedys, my children are number one targets.… I want to get out of this country."- bullshit.
Her children went nowhere. They continued their education in NY. They also continued having Secret Service protection. They vacationed abroad just as they had before Bobby's assassination.
Ethel also had a family member assassinated. While Bobby was running for office there were threats of their children's lives, and her husband was also murdered in front of her.
While Bobby was running for office there were threats of their children's lives.
That should be
While Bobby was running for office there were threats against their children's lives
Did anyone listen to the part when John comes into the room. Instead of
her usually cooing voice she says to him, "Out" with a hard voice, almost a bark. As someone else once said "we are in the presence of a great actress".
That doesn't surprise me, R200. Well, it surprises me she allowed herself to be recorded that way.
Anything else interesting?
I haven't listened yet.
Jackie was half in the bag during these sessions. It's been reported in many sources that there was a pitcher of something alcoholic in the room with her, and you can hear ice clinking in a glass many times. You can also hear Jackie lighting up her cigarettes with matches and inhaling and exhaling. She smoked like a chimney in private.
Yes, she was indeed a cunt... but remember she was America's Cunt!
[quote]Yes, she was indeed a cunt... but remember she was America's Cunt!
She wore it well.
It's kinda funny how she pointed out MLK's affairs when her husband had affairs.
So r202? Alcohol usually makes a pretty good truth serum.
On to the important stuff, would Mrs. Onassis have approved of Carolyn Bessette and allowed JFK Jr. to marry her?
[quote]She renovated the White House when it was badly in need of someone of discerning taste. Her work expanded into an ongoing preservation of the place in a manner befitting a national monument.
She not only paid attention to the structure of the building, but looked into the furniture from previous administrations that was scattered far and wide. Valuable pieces from the 19th century White House were recovered and restored.
She also backed a plan to refurbish Pennsylvania Ave. In the early 60s, it was a row of trashy buildings housing liquor stores, adult book store, flophouse hotels, and other horrors seen by heads of state going from Blair House or White House to the Capitol. She got the plans drawn up and the work begun. Lady Bird followed up with trees and shrubs to make it an impressive avenue.
How like her, R208, to be more concerned with impressing visiting heads of state then with improving general conditions in Washington DC for the benefit of its residents.
Am I the only one who thinks little John-John looks like he is part Greek?
How like you, R209, to assume it meant absolutely nothing to the residents of DC to be rid of the slum buildings on the north side of Pennsylvania Ave. It's so like you to spread your hate instead of viewing an accomplishment.
She also fought for and won the preservation of historic buildings surrounding Lafayette Square. But it will be so like you, 209, to claim it was a way to impress the pigeons in the park instead of generations of DC visitors who will appreciate that history.
She was always shallow and not pretty facially. She was a rich woman who could afford the right clothes and bought them compulsively. A homlier Princess Diana.
A little OT, but I can't start threads, sooooo ...
I was listening to an old Howard Stern interview with Chris Ciccone, Madonna's brother, and the conversation veered to Madonna and JFK Jr.'s short-lived affair back in the mid-80s. According to Ciccone, his sister thought JFK dull and totally lacking in the lover department. She said it was hard getting romantic with a "10 year old boy". Apparently, JFK Jr didn't know what he was doing in the bedroom. Madonna lost interest in pursuing anything serious with him. Ciccone then insinuated it was probably because John-John was with the wrong sex, saying he got a gay vibe off him when they first met.
It reminds me of the gossip piece I read years ago in the 80s that first started to spread the rumour that John-John and Madonna were a secret item. It said that John-John had pictures of Madonna all over his dorm room or whatever, and started wearing funky clothes similar to Madonna's style at the time, including Peter Pan-type shoes that resembled dance shoes she wore. He was a huge fan of hers before they even met, something his friends teased him about. I remember even then thinking "Gay-Gay-Gay-GAAAAAAY."
Ever since I read the biography of Christina Onassis called "All the Pain that Money Can Buy" it is impossible to think of Jackie O as anything besides a self-absorbed, mercenary, shallow bitch, whose looks were made too much of (she was bow-legged and her eyes too far apart!)
[quote]On to the important stuff, would Mrs. Onassis have approved of Carolyn Bessette and allowed JFK Jr. to marry her?
I wonder too. Didn't Caroline hate her?
[quote] According to Ciccone, his sister thought JFK dull and totally lacking in the lover department.
I've posted this before, but my sister (who is not Madonna, although she, too, is a Michigan native) met JFK, Jr., at he '96 Democratic convention and she concluded that there was no "there" there. She swooned over Kevin Costner, who was also in attendance, finding him incredibly sexy (having previously never paid him much mind).
She was bow-legged, all right, with massive hands and feet.
The more I hear about her, the less that I like her.
I too am amazed that no one points out the change in her voice on the tapes when she tells her son, "Out". You hear a heavy sigh then "OUT"
Total change of character
I always admired Jackie till I read her conversations with Schlesinger. Whew. She came off as a mealy-mouthed bitch, a gossip but not an amusing one just a real frau jealous of everybody. She didn't even come off as intelligent AT ALL. Real mediocrity.
She really made me laugh with all her comments about her alleged devotion to JFK who was such a sweetie-pie, kind person etc. when you know damn well she had to be relieved to be rid of a medium rich husband who bitched at her about all the money she spent and kept giving her STDs.
After reading that book I started to wonder if she might have been involved in his assassination. Her mother had a lover named De Mohrenschmidt (or something) who was Lee Harvey Oswald's mentor in Dallas. That's one coincidence I find really strange. Jackie had probably already become Onassis' lover prior to the assassination and Onassis was an overnight guest in the White House immediately after the assassination.
Whodunit?? Jackie did!
Keep in mind those conversations were nearly 50 years ago. Attitudes were very different. Jackie changed with the times and, as Doris Kearns Goodwin noted, really evolved. She was much better when she was working regularly and having to interact with the world. She was very good as an editor, according to authors who worked with her, and she was a rainmaker for her publisher as well, bringing in famous talent the company would not have gotten without her.
R220, your lack of wit or actual purpose in that swill you gargled in your post marks you as the type of asshole even desperate tops would want to avoid.
Does being disgusting make you feel good about yourself?
I wonder what JFK Jr thought of your sister, r217? And do you always take your sister's opinion as the last word on any subject?
To paraphrase a classic line from "Pat and Mike," "There may have been "no there there", R217, but was there was choice."
R223, My sister, who, btw, was a big Kennedy bed-wetter (at the time she was friends with Bobby's son who lives in Chicago), has a lot of experience being around some exceptional men (as befits a professional woman who, someone (whom I had just met) who casually knew her remarked to me, was "one of the most beautiful woman walking the face of the earth) obviously recognized that JFK, Jr., was physically gorgeous. When I read that Madonna thought him dull that brought to mind my sister's similar lack of enthusiasm for the overall mien.
Thanks,r225. I'm sorry if I offended you; I'm sure your sister is a remarkable woman in every way. But I will take her view of JFK, Jr with a grain of salt. As for Madonna, her finding JFK, Jr dull makes me think well of him!
If MLK was a phony what was her husband?
John Jr. wouldn't be flying that plane so long as Jackie was alive. too bad she died so young....don't know if John Jr. would have married Carolyn but he wouldn't have gone down in that crash.
I lived throuhgh the Kennedy assasination and believe me, Jackie held the country together those 4 days in November. She was the epitome of grace under pressure.
What is particularly admirable about this gallant woman - as LBJ once called her - was her ability to create such a mystique about herself just by keeping her mouth shut. Perhaps she understood that showing such reserve after the assassination would only create more interest.
Jackie fucked her way through the Kennedy men just as Marilyn had done yet the public personae of both couldn't be more different (MM, the weak neurotic; JK, the strong-willed bon vivant)