My dad, a former sociology professor, insists that there are more masculine gay men than there are stereotypical gay men. He says, it''s just that the stereotypes are more apparent. I''m not exactly the most masculine of men, so, I feel like he''s telling me I''m an anomaly. %0D\
Is he right? And if so, where does he get this from? How does he know this? I have yet to meet a gay man who doesn''t ping, at least, slightly.%0D\
Anyone here familiar with sociology? Is this what they teach?
I think Dad is telling you to butch it up a bit, Mary.
Sorry, OP, but your dad told you a butt-faced lie.
you''d be surprised how many butch gays are out there!
Jake, Daniel, Mark, Cary
No doubt, R1. I just want to find out if he''s pulling this out of his ass or if this is something they taught back in the 1930s.%0D\
Dad is right. Get out of the gay ''community'' and see for yourself.
I''m inclined to agree with your father OP. I believe that there are far more gay men who are "undetectable" to the general public than those who most anyone would assume is gay.
I suppose there is a continuum from very [childish epithet posted by a bigoted tool] to very masculine. Most gay men probably appear more masculine than feminine. Just an opinion- I think it is thoughful one comimg from the OP''s Dad.
More denial from the effetes. You girls are EVERYWHERE.
Okay, I''m not asking for more ass-pulling. I''m asking if this was something that sociologists came up with back in the day.%0D\
My dad is 82-years old. He had me when he was 62, so, he''s much older than me and I want to know if this is some kind of "old school" bullshit.
So many causal factors here like patriarchy, machismo and good old American internalized homophobia are at root.\
Poz roid monsters are another reason. Thanks to modern medicine instead of wasted few old fags, we have an endless ocean of bodybuilders as our mainstream ideal.
r6 a lot of the straight public is blind to the sexuality of anyone slightly less camp than Richard Simmons, and would be fooled even by Richard if he paraded around a wife and kids. They don''t assume gays are straight because of gay masculinity, they do it because their strong heternormative perspective and the popular myth that a wife and kids means a guy must be straight.\
Liberace''s fans thought he was straight, and he won a lawsuit against a journalist who implied he was gay. Clay Aiken''s fans thought he was straight.
One more thing. He brings up the "brown shirts" as an example. Nazis! %0D\
So, for all of you who think he''s sticking up for masculine queers, he''s basically saying queers are either fems or homicidal maniacs.
I have read that gay men are both - extremely [childish epithet posted by a bigoted tool] and extremely butch, much more so that occurs among straights.
R11 is right. We forgot that straights that aren''t really familiar with gays usually don''t consider someone could be gay unless it is flamingly obvious. So from their perspective yes.\
To someone with a more attuned gay-dar, in general gay guys have a bit of effeminitity that distinguishes them from straights. \
So yes, flamers are definitely the minority. But so masculine that even to another gay guy you aren''t noticeably gay? That exists, but definitely is not the majority.
How old is your mom, r9?
Well, here''s the rub. My dad has ZERO gaydar.%0D\
Unless someone is flaming, he can''t see it, yet, he has this theory and it goes something like this.%0D\
He''s against gay marriage because, according to him, these masculine gays, of which there are so many, are not capable of love, only sex. They wouldn''t know how to be in a relationship if their life depended upon it. Basically, they''re oversexed machines who are so masculine they''re only in touch with their physical desires, and aggressive natures.%0D\
This, from a guy, who has eight kids. Who has had three wives, and god knows how many women on the side.
I think masculine gay men are very stereotypical.\
So shut up already or say, "hateful cliches of exaggerated [childish epithet posted by a bigoted tool]ness taken out of context of camp and in-gay situations."
R9: this is off topic...but...my partner and I (we''re both guys) just had a little girl last summer and he was 59 (I was 49) when she was born. I''m curious: how was it growing up with an older parent?
How long ago was he a professor? I attended university in Canada so maybe it''s different, but in my sociology classes I know any professor espousing those kinds of ludicrous, unsupported by science and offensive views would have been removed from teaching immediately amid apologies from the university.
R9, my mom''s 25 years younger than my dad.%0D\
R17, I''m not all that [childish epithet posted by a bigoted tool]. In fact, my dad had no idea I was gay until I told him. So, fuck your "hateful cliches of exaggerated [childish epithet posted by a bigoted tool]ness taken out of context of camp and in-gay situations"
R18, I hope you have already given this some thought.
We live in the US, and my dad taught for 50 years. I have no idea if he taught anything about homosexuality...I don''t think he did. I know he was at John Jay College of Criminal Justice, years ago, so I think criminal justice was his primary focus.
R16, when I came out to my parents, they both said that queers were incapable of love and were addicted to sex. My dad said he knew all about queers because he had talked once to a prison warden who told him about the men having sex in prison. Then they threw me out for good. %0D\
This is a very old fashioned idea that probably is still spread widely by fundamentalist Christians, but no one else. %0D\
Op, a serious question for you. Why do you really care what your 82 year old dad says about this topic? He may be a great dad, but at 82 he is speaking about a subject that has changed dramatically in even the last 10 years. %0D\
Your life will have to be the exception to his out-of-date rule. Part of being an adult is forging your own path. You have to let daddy''s opinion go, OK? %0D\
Note: When I first read your first post and you said your dad "had you" at 62, my dirty mind thought it meant you two had first had sex together when he was 62. This is, afterall, Datalounge! LOL
We did, Charlie. We thought about it a long time before we embarked on parenthood at our ages.
Your dad would have been teaching Sosh about the time I majored in it. There was very little mention of homosexuality in those days. It was a minor thing - a single small-town homo, a cluster/community of underground types in the big cities along with the rumored sordid places. I would have been very interested in details like the type you mentioned, but there were none available.
I think your Dad is right. All the gay guys I know are regular-guy types. Maybe that''s because we''re out here in the Midwest wilderness.
R23, my dad''s an agnostic or atheist, but I think he might get his ideas about over-masculinized gay men from studying prison behavior for so long that he assumes gay men are either hardened criminals or so girly they can hardly be called men. I think my coming out to him put a kink in his theory because I''m neither, although, now that I''ve come out, he seems to have put me in the "girly" category because, unlike my brothers, I wasn''t a big jock.%0D\
Don''t get me wrong. I love my dad, and I know he loves me. If anything, he''s overly protective of me and does not want me hooking up with one of these, what are in his mind, "monsters". I just hate his stupid theories.
R23, I don''t think that''s so much a Christian idea as it is an "old fashioned" stereotype that was even promoted on TV.
Two dads basing their ideas of gay men on prison sex? Do they also base their ideas of what all women are like by looking at female criminals or what all black people are like looking at black criminals? \
And shouldn''t it be pretty obvious that a lot of the guys having in sex in prison probably are only having sex with guys because it''s what''s available? That''s same sex sexual activity not gay sexuality.
Dear R18: You and your partner or better people than I can ever hope to be. %0D\
I''m 59 and an afternoon of baby sitting my 3 godchildren (all under the age of 6) leaves me totally wiped out. I can''t imagine being a parent 24/7 at my age. God love you both.
R31, don''t worry, we get it. But some straight men don''t. There''s still some right wing psychologist (who has been reputiated by the medical profession) who goes around giving lectures to such straight people, claiming that gays seduce children, shove gerbils up their butts, and lead lonely alcoholic miserable lives. Is his name Cameron? I cannot remember, but he tells people what they want to hear and legitimizes it by claiming to be a psychologist. I think he is tied to the anti-gay group that Rick Perry has affiliated himself with.
Your Dad is incorrect, this is his way of telling you how he would like you to act around him.
Thanks for the kind works, R32. I don''t think we any better than any one. We probably should have become parents a while back - but we weren''t ready financially. We''re pretty set now and we''ve made sure that our daghter will be safe financially as well.
Did Michelangelo sashay?\
Did Alexander the Great double snap ''Marys''?\
Would Sir Ian McKellan shriek and prance?\
The stereotype your father is talking about is the straight''s version of gaydar. The only way they can identify gay people is by the stereotypes, so they assume all gay people fit it. As to which group is larger, there''s no way of knowing, but it could be entirely possible to have a majority who do not fit the stereotype.
since many of the masculine gays go through life not coming out, I''m sure this could be the case.%0D
OP, I''m sorry to tell you this, but your dad has dementia. He''s 82 years old for fuck''s sake. Nothing he says has any truth or value at this point. My parents are in their late seventies and I don''t listen to their opinions on anything. They are hopelessly out of date and are now coming to me for advice on just about everything. They are like big, wrinkled children. \
You are still quite young, so it would be great if you could find an older man you admire and respect to mentor you---someone who isn''t old enough to be your great grandfather.
[quote]I have yet to meet a gay man who doesn''t ping, at least, slightly.\
By "ping," OP evidently means something on the Liberace/Richard Simmons end of the spectrum. His opinion is shared by not a few here who rush to "claim" any public figure who evidences any gesture of mannerism that''s the least bit mincing, flaming, nelly, [childish epithet posted by a bigoted tool], weak, milquetoast, fussy, "British," or not expressly "masculine." \
Between hyper-"masculine" and hyper-"feminine" stereotypes, there''s a world of people who don''t especially stand (or scream) out.
"They don''t assume gays are straight because of gay masculinity, they do it because their strong heternormative perspective and the popular myth that a wife and kids means a guy must be straight."%0D\
Or because most people are straight, so assuming someone you don''t know is straight is reasonable until you learn otherwise or they are obviously gay.
OP, your fathers statement is too finite a statement on such a wildly subjective an singularly undefinable trait. All men, gay and straight have their momemts when they''d be just fine in a gingham frock and others when boxing gloves might be the rule. I suspect your father is either personally repressed or making a passive aggressive comment to you. \
This is no win situation and you might consider ignoring such silly rants. If you already have a challenging relationship with your father, you might ask him where that reseach was done so you might enjoy reading it. I''m sure he will bluster his way out of that with more baloney.
R38 Can diagnose dememtia in a jam-packed football stadium.
Just say these 3 words in a sentence and you de-gayed!\
"Nascar" "Chicks" and "F150"
OP I have yet to read a single study that realistically measures masculine and feminine characteristics. How in the world would we even go about defining such characteristics without it being very culture and group specific -- to the point where the study itself would rely on negative stereotypes. In short, we really don''t know the answer to your question except for personal anecdotes...much like the forever perpetuated myths that say Black men have longer dicks than all other men. But people buy into this kind of shit!
I have yet to fill out a butch-survey, let alone a sissy-questionaire and I have been involved in many homo surveys. \
I think your daddy is being a little hostile to you and wishes you were a little more butch. \
Either that or he''s trying to come out to you.
[quote]... I''m not exactly the most masculine of men ...\
"Well I''m not the world''s most masculine man\
But I know what I am and I''m glad I''m a man\
And so is Lola!"
There was a great episode of "All in the Family" years ago, way before the subject of gays became so openly discussed on tv. It dealt with Mike''s friend, Roger, who was [childish epithet posted by a bigoted tool], wore a scarf and didn''t like sports. Archie assumed that he was gay and make jokes about him. In the meantime, Mike''s friend tells him that Archie''s friend, a former macho football player, is the one who is actually gay. I thought it was a great way for Norman Lear to shed some light on this topic way before it was popular to do so. I always remembered this episode and used it to remember that you don''t judge a book by its cover.
R18, what is it like parenting a little girl?%0D
Your dad is trying to come out to you.
In the real world, the figure skaters are the gay ones and the truck drivers are the straight ones, 99% of the time......with males at least, with females this is reversed (there has never, ever been a lesbian female figure skater).
R48: It%E2%80%99s pretty amazing, actually. We were both pretty nervous when we found out we were having a little girl %E2%80%93 as we had assumed we were having a boy (both of us come from several generations of %E2%80%9Call boys%E2%80%9D) and we don%E2%80%99t know ANYTHING about girls. She%E2%80%99s lovely and we wouldn%E2%80%99t have it any other way. Interestingly, we know a couple of other gay/lesbian couples whose kids are the opposite sex (e.g., a lesbian couple with twin boys and a gay couple with two girls) We%E2%80%99re fortunate to have lots of women friends (str8 and gay, married, single, young, old) so she has lots of good female role models.
Where is this quote from? %0D\
"I am more man than you''ll ever be, and more woman than you''ll ever have". %0D\
This was said by a gay man to a homophobe.
R52, it came from the movie "Car Wash" but it was "Honey, I am more man then you''ll ever be and more women than you''ll ever get"
Most gay and bisexual dudes are not openly so. In fact, a huge percentage of bi and gay dudes do not even view themselves as such. So, yes, most bisexual and gay men are masculine, but most people don't even know they like dudes.
[quote](there has never, ever been a lesbian female figure skater
How can you say this with such certainty?
You are validating a heterosexuals male opinion on Gays OP? How about asking some folks from India about life as an ice skater too?
Fem gays that act like they are the 5th Golden Girl, creep the shit out of me. Man up, gays!!
A lot of these non-stereotypical gay men are "non-scene" but in way have created their own alternate gay scene, it's sorta more like lesbian lifestyle but with gay men instead of lesbians - obviously.
[quote] Man up, gays!!
This is what Nazis used to say.
[quote]Most gay and bisexual dudes are not openly so. In fact, a huge percentage of bi and gay dudes do not even view themselves as such.
Which is why gay marriage gets banned, and four more states will ban gay marriage this November. Which is why Chick Fila's happen. Which is gay rights is nowhere.
It doesn't make any sense. Think about it.
I'm not sure "pinging" always refers to being less than masculine, OP. Quite the contrary.
Here are some example of men who "ping" without necessarily being feminine, and often just the contrary.
Well dressed, slim guys with short cropped haircuts.
Any guy who flirts with you.
Any guy who reminds you of other gay men you know.
Any guy who reminds you any gay celebrity.
The list goes on.
This is silly. Maybe a lot of gay men LOOK masculine (e.g., wear a beard, have hairy or muscular bodies). But when it comes to mannerisms and voice, forget about it. I would say that MOST gay men (the ones I personally have met) are somewhat [childish epithet posted by a bigoted tool]. Some are more [childish epithet posted by a bigoted tool] than others. But I would say it's actually rare to find a "I would never have guessed that he's gay" type of masculine gay man.
What I've noticed in this thread is how a lot of straight people can't comprehend same-sex love so therefore they base the fact some people are gay/bi/les/etc. on sex only, especially men. At least that's what I gathered from how the OP described his dad. The majority of straight people, especially those over about 30, really have zero clue about most things gay, so their opinions are worthless on subjects such as these.
Anyway, most gay men are average. So they have some feminine characteristics, some masculine characteristics. Most people fall in the middle to a certain degree, male or female. Some gay men look more masculine but have more feminine characteristics than a guy who may look more average/fem. It really depends on what a person constitutes as being masculine.
I do think, though, that gay men have a different way of expressing their masculinity than straight men, by and large. Gay men have a natural disposition that separates them from straight men regardless of how masculine they appear. Doesn't make gay men any less or more masculine, just gay. Because Gareth Thomas, for example, I knew he was gay the first time I saw him in pictures, and that was like 2006 and I had never heard of him before then.
Dunno, and care even less. Why on earth should I? I like both varieties of men equally butch and fem- ditto women.
Gay men have loose neck.
He's correct from a straight point of view. They tend to see the masculinity in men, even gay ones, with a blurrier lens. If it's not on fire, it's not "gay". Simple as that.
From a gay point of view, no way. We see the name brand underwear, the every two week haircut, the plucked eyebrows, the designer T-shirt that tries too hard to be vintage, the insane attention to diet and exercise, and a ton of other "tells" that the average straight "masculine" guy would never think of doing.
In Los Angeles, most gay men are light on the loafers
Ricky Martin and Matt Bomer are changing the views of many people on how gay men look - they're both masculine and hot
I think this article, posted on AlterNet.org does a good job at exploring how churches use language to condition to be afraid of gays and lesbians. The author does a decent job of explaining the irrational fear these fundamentalist Christian types promulgate to make impressionable people terrified of gay people.
As for the stereotypes mentioned of hyper masculine butch bear/musclemen (oversexed and incapable of love or a relationship) and nellie femmes (overly emotional and extravagant with tendencies for flamming brighter than a thousand suns going supernova and perceived to be incapable of any masculine qualities) -- these are the only conceivable "types" of gays there are. Because people (especially str8 men) don't like to imagine themselves actually having gay sex. I believe it was Quinten Crisp who has a very succinct quote to this point.
The stereotypes just allow people to quickly categorize people and cast them into these easy categories and therefore be dismissive of those they perceive to be gay.
It's when they discover that someone who doesn't fit those stereotypes and comes across as just like them that it rocks their world and the Quentin Crisp "imagining themselves" aspect comes into play. Because they are processing in their minds, "Oh, that guy is a lot like me. I never figured he was gay. Oh, wow, he's not like so-and-so who is 'obviously' gay." And then they are forced to face their imagination and ponder that person they didn't peg for being gay -- actually engaged in the act and wonder themselves if they could be that way or do that.
It will be interesting to read feedback on the article -- because I think the imprinting of fear that churches employ is another type of stereotyping or shorthand for just dismissing people right off the bat and vilifying us further because it keeps them from actually engaging with or getting to know any gay people.
The whole streotype of gays like carson from queer eye. I've meant some very butch gays. More like a Rock Hudson than Liberace.
Oh my god, you must be 900 years old, R74.
[quote]But when it comes to mannerisms and voice, forget about it. I would say that MOST gay men are somewhat feminine. Some are more feminine than others. But I would say it's actually rare to find a "I would never have guessed that he's gay" type of masculine gay man.
I would agree, the latter type certainly exists but it is rare. Just as the super flamboyant queens are actually a pretty small minority also. Most gay men fall into the middle somewhere, with some stereotypically gay mannerisms.
However it is becoming harder to tell because more and mroe young straight guys these days also seem a bit gay, which kinda shows how meaningless the whole thing can be.
There are some clarifications that need to happen here. For example, are we talking about people who self-identify as gay? We can't forget about gay men who may be married to/dating women.
Self-loathing, closeted gay men you mean, R77?
I've got news for R78. There are more closeted gays than out gays...by far. Self loathing or not.
There's only two kind of gay me possible:
That's IT. No other exceptions! Everything in the entire world is black-and-white, especially gender and sexuality.
[quote]Ricky Martin and Matt Bomer are changing the views of many people on how gay men look - they're both masculine and hot
And I am Mary... Queen of Scots.
Your father is mistaken. At least 80% of gay men are spot-able by other gay men. And 95% of all gay men will betray some sign if you watch long enough. The remaining 5% are miracles of nature and such a nice surprise.
The pseudoscience of Sociology and its Practitioners alead the world in their lack of understanding of homosexuality.
OP, high spottability - assuming you are correct - is not the same thing as comprising a specific stereotype of the [childish epithet posted by a bigoted tool] man. Which was OP's father's point.
i can spot, presumably (for the sake of your argument) many men as gay, but that doesn't mean they are less than masculine. Actually, quite to the contrary. When I see a big guy walking down 8th Avenue with tattoos and a goatee, sure, I might assume - rightly or wrongly - that he's gay. But it has absolutely nothing to do with his not being masculine.
Just like with all subcultures, gay men have identifying features. But to argue that all of these identifying features qualify them as feminine guys as opposed to masculine guys, is completely ignoring the facts.
As well as completely misconstruing what OP's father's point was.
Most men who are attracted to men are closeted, and very few people in their lives will ever know they are into men. Openly gay men tend to forget how many same-sex oriented guys are totally assimilated and integrated into mainstream culture because they mistakenly think that all gay guys are stereotypical or openly gay. White gay men tend to especially prone to think this because they are less likely to encounter the huge number of urban thuggish bisexual and gay guys who are on the downlow.
r84- best thing I read on DL
R84 I'm extremely depressed at the thought that, despite looking during every waking moment of every day for that past ~70 years, I have missed this gargantuan underclass of homosexual potential.
R86, I fear you have missed them because they allowed themselves to be missed by you.
To better understand disease prevention, a survey was made of 4,193 male New Yorkers consisting of 130 questions including sexual identification and sexual behavior. They found that 91.3% identify as straight, 3.7% as gay, and the rest as bisexual (1.2%), unsure (1.7%) or declined to answer (2.1%). These numbers are not significantly different from those the CDC published last year.
However, these identifiers did not align closely with actual sexual activity. For example, 9.3% of respondents indicated that they had sex with only men in the past year. Initially, we might assume that these are the gay, bisexual, unsure, etc. men. Not so.
Of the straight-identified men, 9.4% reported having sexual intercourse with at least 1 man (and no women) in the year before the survey.
[the numbers reflect a slightly different population, the second eliminates bisexuals and those who were not sexually identifiable as straight or gay and those who had sex with both men and women]
That seems like a large percentage of men who are “straight” but only doing it with guys. Our next assumption might be that these are men who don’t have an opportunity to have sex with a woman. Again, not so.
Approximately 70% of straight-identified men who have sex with men reported being married, which was substantially more than any other identity–behavior group: 54% of straight-identified men who have sex with women and only 0.2% of gay-identified men who have sex with men reported being married.
In other words, “straight” men who have sex with men (SMSM) are much more likely to be married than straight men who have sex with women.
What percentage of masculine bisexual and gay guys never openly identify as such?
r89, well if you use craig's list or manhunt etc you will see the word gay is taboo. They HATE being gay
OP is the son of a former sociology professor, but doesn't know "what they teach"? Hmmmmm......
And how can OP say that he has "yet to meet a gay man who doesn't ping, at least, slightly"? This assumes that all men he has met who don't ping are straight. How would he know?
Perhaps there's a reason that the academic careers ended with the previous generation.
[quote]Of the straight-identified men, 9.4% reported having sexual intercourse with at least 1 man (and no women) in the year before the survey.
It really is sad that we live in the year 2012 and this is still the case. The amount of closet cases out there is staggering.
Masculine men value their masculinity more than just about any other thing, whatever their sexual orientation. They perceive gay identity and association as a threat to their masculinity identity. Therefore, there is no incentive to identify as gay and every incentive not to. Moreover, the word gay is associated culturally with so much that is not viewed as masculine, including musical tastes, lack of athletic interest/ability, girliness, weakness and campiness. As long as masculine dudes can pass as not gay, they will continue. This is the way it has always been in most places. Even in the most enlightened places, masculine males rarely identify as gay. Bisexual identity is less tainted with non-masculine perepttions, but it too has similar barriers to identity.
Again, most men who are attracted to men will never identify as gay and publicly identify as straight. If a guy is even a little bit bisexual, he will likely suppress gay identity and interests and publicly validate his heterosexual bona fides.
Are you a Gaybro?
People on this board only focus on gayness as being openly gay, but in real life, most men who are attracted to men or have sex with men (infrequently or frequently) do not identify as gay, especially publicly. Most of these non-gay identified men are observably just as masculine as their heterosexual brethren and feel at home with mainstream males. Of course, they are hard to study and evaluate, but they are a large group of people.
I wish he was right. All I ever see are flaming fairies. Turns my stomach.
How do you back that up, R96?
How could you possibly know this?
Here's a question:
Are the majority of gays out? How do you guesstimate how many are walking around in the closet?
I've suspected it could be around a majority.
Seems to me, if you're masculine, you'd care less about what people think, so there would be fewer, not more.
Personally, I'm butch on the streets, femme in the sheets. I present a pretty masculine facade, but when I'm alone with my mans, I like to be treated like a lady. I suspect a lot of guys are like me.
Probably 3% of gay males are effeminite like the DL clique. The other 97% are natural males without gender disorders or other issues. They're attracted to guys. They have no interest in being girls with dicks.
But go ahead, continue pretending. That seems to be all DL is about these days.
You're the one fantasizing, R102.
You're what's known as a lying sack of shit r103.
It's true for men and women. Homosexual males and females who don't follow the gender-bender tendencies go undetected and create their own circles, either for convenience (if they're still comfortably in the closet to most people) or because they're pushed away by the most visible and detectable gay and lesbians as "conformists", which as a traditional feminine lesbian myself, I got the chance to verify personally.
Nothing upsets the gender benders more than being confronted with the fact that they're a tiny insignificant fraction of same-sex attracted males.
Hiss my pretties! Hiss!
Hmmm I dont know, but he may be on to something. Certainly the idea that the flamboyant and feminine men are the ones who will get the most notice is nothing new. Until recently, if one asked me, I would guess the mix is about 50/50. But last year a bunch of friends and I went to Key West for a weekend of drinking and debauchery. For the most part, we are just typical guys. Not overly macho, not overly fem. Just typical men. Except for one in our party, Michael. He is pretty flamboyant the most fem of the bunch. At one bar, my one friend confided in me that he admires Michael because, "it cant be easy for him." He went on about how because of his mannerisms, he probably gets a lot of static from people and has probably had more than his share of homophobia aimed at him. The admiration came from the fact that despite this, he refuses to change and be what others expect him to be. I agreed and said that at least times are changing and straight people are less prejudiced as they were in the past. "But its not straight people" my friend added. "Gay men too can be pretty hostile to someone like him." He then told me to look around the bar, look at the other men here. "This place looks like a lumber camp", and he was right. Nearly all the men there were the facial hair, shaved head, beefy and inked sort. I'm sure there were a few who once they opened their mouth the illusion was shattered, but for the most part, if anyone saw any of these men just walking down the street, it would not be easy to guess they were gay by the way they were dressed and carried themselves or acted. Sure, for some of us, (such as R83) a few bells may ring. But for most of the population, they would be clueless. Since that time I have taken notice whenever I am at gay bar or club or event. The majority of the men I see and meet are not what would be called "stereotypically gay". The number of men I have encountered who would be considered feminine is pretty low.
You mad, R104?
r106, I think that it is the result of the fact that birds of a feather flock together. Non-gender conforming gay guys hide together, often in dense Northeast/Pacific cities, partly out of necessity, partly out of choice. Like just about any group, they feel more comfortable around guys like themselves with similar interests. Therefore, they are less likely to hang with masculine bi and gay guys because there is a cultural disconnect. Likewise, masculine and bi guys tend to be more closeted and less likely to live apart from mainstream society, so they often don't understand non-masculine guys or have close ties to them.
I agree with all that r109, except that I don't think the word "masculine" is the most accurate term. What you're really talking about is being natural and unaffected.
The speech of the "gender benders" is a sociolect. Their physical gestures are likewise aped and mimicked.
Most MSM are closeted and fit within gender norms.
Ravens linebacker Brendon Ayanbadejo spoke today about Jason Collins’ coming out. Ayanbadejo’s comments get to the heart of the problem with how homosexuality is viewed. While there are men like, say, Erwin “EJ” Johnson III who tends to be rather [childish epithet posted by a bigoted tool], gay men like Collins tend not to be.
Ayanbadejo appeared on Meet The Press, and one of the things he wanted to discuss was not only the need to reform the hyper-masculine nature of sports, but also the view that gay men are all [childish epithet posted by a bigoted tool].
Brendon Ayanbadejo ‘Gayness Not About Femininity’
People think gayness has something to do with femininity when really we just need to erase that stereotypes from our minds. LGBT people come in all different types and shapes and forms. So I think that’s really what we’re fighting. But the beautiful thing about what Britney Griner did, it barely made a splash. That’s what we’re trying to do in men’s sports when people announce they’re gay. We don’t want it to change the climate in sports. We want everybody to be accepted and people can go out there and love who they want to love and be who they are so they cannot only be better people but they can also be better athletes.He also wanted other gay athletes to come out as well, and encouragingly said “When an athlete does come out they’ll have a supportive group around them.”
It has always been a common misconception that homosexual men are [childish epithet posted by a bigoted tool]. Unfortunately, this has tended to make gay men coming out in sports difficult due to the tendency to perceive gay men as being weaker than straight men.
Some of the most masculine, butch guys around are nothing but nelly queens trying to hide their femininity to fit in socially. Our community in and of itself is very hypocritical and judgemental about what constitites masculinity...hence the massive steroid use and the much sought after uber-masculine persona desired by the majority of gay men. They scream acceptance, but are the first to change themseves to conform to whats "acceptible and desireable".
[R114] The most truthful response in this thread. Or perhaps I should say most HONEST response.
You win post of the day, but before you get your ribbon, you must remove the e from judgmental.
No offense intended, but a professor once wisely told me that he could spot the rubes in a second by their spelling of the word. And you can bet I WAS one of the rubes!
r115....an honest mistake...I also left the "l" out of themselves...my mind works faster than my fingers !
"They scream acceptance, but are the first to change themseves to conform to whats "acceptible and desireable".
Because they're young, stupid, immature and have the emotional development of middle school teen aged girls.
Grow the fuck up and be whatever you want to be and fuck what anybody else thinks. Or are you not man enough to do that?
What's wrong with that R58?
Coco the Cook - Golden Girl's one show 5th girl
Your dad is spot on. The camp queens are just the gay men that are noticable and those stereotype are being enforced in movies and on tv as well. The camp sassy gay is more acceptable to the average straight audience because he's kind of amusing, non-threatening and asexual while a butch gay man would make straight guys more uncomfortable. Threatens the stereotypes they believe in, robs them of the illusions that they would be able to recognize gays while in reality any guy can be gay, might look too attractive and sexual...
[quote] Fem gays that act like they are the 5th Golden Girl, creep the shit out of me. Man up, gays!!
Fascist assholes that insist everyone walk, talk and act like them to validate everything they think, say and do creep the shit out of me!
Spoiler alert: The world does not exist to validate everything you think or do! People are ***GASP*** not all exactly like you!
I agree r117....however, theyre not all young.
I myself am not "butch", but Im not a girl either...Im just a normal person. All of my life has been difficult because I was too "femme' to be str8, but too str8 to be gay (in a personality sense). Gay men are just as, if not more, judgmental of their peers than str8s.
R121, I'm 61 and have been out since I was 19 so I've been around the gay block a couple of times.
A lot of the assholes proclaming their "masculinity" are anything but and lack the critical thinking skills necessary to do any careful analysis of the way they present themselves to the world.
It's kind of like the internet, where everybody claims to have a nine or 10 inch dick, but the sad reality is few do.
The only place you'll find e-feminates are in the e-feminate cliques. 95% of same-sex attracted males have nothing to do with them.
A good example of the asshole I refer to in my post at R122 can be found at R123.
Yeah, your shit don't smell, R122.
Here is the thing I dont understand. If we accept that there are some gay men who are naturally feminine acting, why is it so hard for some to accept that there could be gay men who are naturally masculine?
r124, stop lying. r123 said nothing about himself. Like always, the effeminacy propagandizers are left with nothing but projection. But then that's what you have to do when reality doesn't support your fantasy.
r125...Its not hard at all to accept a "naturally" masculine gay...the problem is that most are NOT naturally masculine...its an act to make themselves more socially acceptable. I know multiple "men" that you would never in a million years guess are gay...but get them behind closed doors when nobody can judge them, and you might as well put a pink tutu on them and blast house music from the stereo as they prance around. Thats not "naturally" masculine. I also know many "closeted" macho men that are only closeted because they dont want to be percieved as femminine...regardless of how "butch" they are. Society in general percieves gay men as feminine. Alot of men would rather live a lie than be thought of as a feminine. Its the same with gay men. Its ok to be gay, but you better not appear feminine in public.
[quote]I know multiple "men" that you would never in a million years guess are gay...but get them behind closed doors when nobody can judge them, and you might as well put a pink tutu on
Maybe that's why I am confused. I have never encountered a man like that.
[quote].Its not hard at all to accept a "naturally" masculine gay...the problem is that most are NOT naturally masculine
And this is what's known as lying. Sometimes I think datalounge exists solely to spew this propaganda.
r123 is correct. I'd say the percentage is somewhere in the 90s and that fact really pisses off the ones here with an agenda to proclaim otherwise.
I bet youre one of of those "naturally" masculine guys who claim to be metrosexual.
A "naturally" masculine guy doesnt have a bathroom full of beauty products and a closet full of designer clothes. A "naturally" masculine guy is a MAN who doesnt give a damn what other people think about who he chooses to have sex with. The majority of "masculine" gay men spend endless hours in the gym, spend endless dollars to be seen in the right clothes and at the right places to attract other "masculine" men. Theres nothing "natural" about that.
r130, the people you're describing are the datalounge set. You're right that they're not natural at all. But they are the 5% or less. They're the ones who go around making idiotic statements like the first sentence in r127, pushing the idea that gay males are just women with dicks.
r129 was right.
An older gay man once told me that the idea that 2% of the population being gay is not true. In fact, he said, there are many,many more gay men that are married and not obviously gay. He said there are far, far more men who are gay/bi than what is reported.This is because you'd never know they are gay by their voice, interests, job, etc. He said there are more gay and bi men that are married than out.
It seems to me some men get married because it is the manly thing to do!They may be bi, or just plain old closeted.
I would say that sexuality is on a continuum from 100% gay to 100% straight.
I think R129 is on to something. I'm trying real hard to think of any gay man I know that fits into what so many here are saying about most or the majority of guys who are not feminine. Maybe its just a case of "we attract what we are" but I know no gay man who has a bathroom full of beauty products or who obsesses over what they wear. Pretty much all of them are like me, the shampoo is whatever was on sale, the clothes are whatever they first pulled out of their closet (or in my case, pulled out of the clothes dryer) I'm not saying the sort of men R130 described dont exist, but in my experience, I have never met them.
[quote]Liberace's fans thought he was straight, and he won a lawsuit against a journalist who implied he was gay. Clay Aiken's fans thought he was straight.
How is that even possible???
My experience is just like r133. Guys who like guys and are just natural. They don't use terms like "butch" or even "masculine." They don't have prissy or macho affectations.
People who do have those affectations are generally in small urban cliques/scenes where they reinforce each other with that behavior, attitude and jargon. Sometimes it seems like DL is the world headquarters for those cliques. But out in the real world, gay guys are not like that.
How about those countless "masculine" down-low straight guys that hook up off of Craigslist, bathhouses, cruising areas? Usually married or partnered with a woman, and by all appearances straight to the normal world, but constantly having gay sex? Sadly, I think this type of man outnumbers "out" gay men. But they are gay themselves and in denial, no?
Therefore, I think most gay men (or men who have sex with men) are masculine but just fly under the radar. The ratio of out gay men to closet-case cocksuckers is like 1:5.
R135 I never really thought about it before, but the more I do and the more I read things like what you wrote, I'm beginning to think that is the case. The gay guys I know are just that, guys. None of them are macho lug heads, but they also are not flamers. We really dont go to gay clubs that much but its thats because we dont like club music, not because we dont like being around other gay people.
I'd say at least 90% of homosexual males are not out. I don't agree with r136, that a lot are married. They're just single guys that everyone wrongly assumes are straight.
[quote] But they are gay themselves and in denial, no?
Denial of what? They enjoy both pussy and cock at the same time. It doesn't always have to be either or. (Even if bitter old queens want it to be that way.)
Men who identify as gay have sex with women. Men who identify as straight have sex with other men.
Well the "identify as" thing is kinda silly. Sexual orientation is about what you're attracted to, nothing more, nothing less.
r138, if they are married to women, they are more likely bi than gay.
R139, from my many countless sexperiences with such DL men, I doubt that the majority even properly enjoy pussy. Sure, there were some true-blue bisexuals in there, but I got the sense that most were partnered up with women for appearances and straight privilege. Whatever reason it was, being married to her certainly didn't stop them from hooking up with men over and over and over again..
Do you think the percentage is that high r138? I would say slightly above 50%, and some might say that is too high.
I don't know about that r141. Many guys get married because of expectations, not desire. You can argue that this is unwise, but it does happen (though much less often than it used to).
r143, you are delusional. Out gays probably comprise less than 5% of all homos. Almost every gay guy I know is not out.
[quote]Almost every gay guy I know is not out.
Wow. That's incredible. Every gay guy I know is out.
r146, you must hang around a lot of femmy types. Are you sure they are actual homosexuals, or do they just have gender issues and find it convenient to call themselves gay because it gives them something they think is supportive to identify with?
R147 LOL hardly. In fact you couldn't be more wrong. I think its probably more a case of how I dont hang around with phoneys and liars.
For every gay man that's out and open in NYC/LA, there are tons more gay-porn-watching, hooking-up-with-men-online "straight dudes" in flyover land.
r148, the "phoneys" are the people described in r147.
Your dad would have been teaching Sosh about the time I majored in it. There was very little mention of homosexuality in those days. It was a minor thing - a single small-town homo, a cluster/community of underground types in the big cities along with the rumored sordid places. I would have been very interested in details like the type you mentioned, but there were none available.
Incidentally, he's incorrect.
r149, using the term "flyover land" screams loudly that you're in some tiny urban clique where gender confusion is the issue that brings you together. But I get what you mean - which is that in the real world guys who like guys are everywhere, and they're natural unaffected guys.
Chaz Bono has a gender identity disorder. So does Bobby Trendy and Amanda Lepore.
R152 A person does not need to live in an urban area to use the phrase "fly over land". Even people who live in Oklahoma use the term to describe themselves. You would be very well served to not assume and make generalizations without first having facts to back up what you claim.
stark raving mad
R152 and his biddies sure are pushing that "urban clique" meme real hard.
Almost like rabid Chrisitians speaking about the "gay agenda."
A lot Northeast/Pacific urban guys are isolated from the rest of mainstream society and tend to think their way of life and environment is typical. Even in NYC, a lot of openly gay men are oblivious to the huge Down Low scene in Queens, the Bronx, Washington Heights, Harlem. Openly gay men tend to be unaware of the huge underground of men who are into men but don't identify as gay. The DL bros have their own networks that are usually hidden from most openly gay men.
Your dad was telling you what you want to hear and believe.
Are lesbians more accepted than gay men?
Saturday, May 18, 2013 9:51 PM EDT
By MARTHA IRVINE
Of The Associated Press
CHICAGO (AP) — It may be a man’s world, as the saying goes, but lesbians seem to have an easier time living in it than gay men do.
High-profile lesbian athletes have come out while still playing their sports, but not a single gay male athlete in major U.S. professional sports had done the same until NBA basketball player Jason Collins announced he was gay in a April 29 essay in Sports Illustrated. While television’s most prominent same-sex parents are the two fictional dads on “Modern Family,” surveys show that society is actually more comfortable with the idea of lesbians parenting children.
And then there is the ongoing debate over the Boy Scouts of America proposal to ease their ban on gay leaders and scouts.
Reaction to the proposal, which the BSA’s National Council will take up next month, has been swift, and often harsh. Yet amid the discussions, the Girl Scouts of USA reiterated their policy prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation, among other things. That announcement has gone largely unnoticed.
Certainly, the difference in the public’s reaction to the scouting organizations can be attributed, in part, to their varied histories, including the Boy Scouts’ longstanding religious ties and a base that has become less urban over the years, compared with the Girl Scouts’.
Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell
But there’s also an undercurrent here, one that’s often present in debates related to homosexuality, whether over the military’s now-defunct “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy or even same-sex marriage. Even as society has become more accepting of homosexuality overall, longstanding research has shown more societal tolerance for lesbians than gay men, and that gay men are significantly more likely to be targets of violence.
That research also has found that it’s often straight men who have the most difficult time with homosexuality — and particularly gay men — says researcher Gregory Herek.
“Men are raised to think they have to prove their masculinity, and one big part about being masculine is being heterosexual. So we see that harassment, jokes, negative statements and violence are often ways that even younger men try to prove their heterosexuality,” says Herek, a psychologist at the University of California, Davis, who has, for years, studied this phenomenon and how it plays out in the gay community.
That is not, of course, to downplay the harassment lesbians face. It can be just as ugly.
But it’s not as frequent, Herek and others have found, especially in adulthood. It’s also not uncommon for lesbians to encounter straight men who have a fascination with them.
“The men hit on me. The women hit on me. But I never feel like I’m in any immediate danger,” says Sarah Toce, the 29-year-old editor of The Seattle Lesbian, a daily online news magazine. “If I were a gay man, I might — and if it’s like this in Seattle, can you imagine what it is like in less-accepting parts of middle America?”
One of Herek’s studies found that, overall, 38 percent of gay men said that, in adulthood, they’d been victims of vandalism, theft or violence — hit, beaten or sexually assaulted — because they were perceived as gay. About 13 percent of lesbians said the same.
A separate study of young people in England also found that, in their teens, gay boys and lesbians were almost twice as likely to be bullied as their straight peers. By young adulthood, it was about the same for lesbians and straight girls. But in this study, published recently in the journal Pediatrics, gay young men were almost four times more likely than their straight peers to be bullied.
Code of behavior
At least one historian says it wasn’t always that way for either men or women, whose “expressions of love” with friends of the same gender were seen as a norm — even idealized — in the 19th century.
“These relationships offered ample opportunity for those who would have wanted to act on it physically, even if most did not,” says Thomas Foster, associate professor and head of the history department at DePaul University in Chicago.
Today’s “code of male gendered behavior,” he says, often rejects these kinds of expressions between men.
We joke about the “bro-mance” — a term used to describe close friendships between straight men. But in some sense, the humor stems from the insinuation that those relationships could be romantic, though everyone assumes they aren’t.
Call those friends “gay,” a word that’s still commonly used as an insult, and that’s quite another thing. Consider the furor over Rutgers University men’s basketball coach Mike Rice, who was recently fired for mistreating his players and mocking them with gay slurs.
If two women dance together at a club or walk arm-in-arm down the street, people are usually less likely to question it — though some wonder if that has more to do with a lack of awareness than acceptance.
“Lesbians are so invisible in our society. And so I think the hatred is more invisible,” says Laura Grimes, a licensed clinical social worker in Chicago whose counseling practice caters to gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender clients.
Grimes says she also frequently hears from lesbians who are harassed for “looking like dykes,” meaning that people are less accepting if they look more masculine.
Still, Ian O’Brien, a gay man in Washington, D.C., sees more room for women “to transcend what femininity looks like, or at least negotiate that space a little bit more.”
O’Brien, who’s 23, recently wrote an opinion piece tied to the Boy Scout debate and his own experience in the Scouts when he was growing up in the San Diego area.
“To put it simply: Being a boy is supposed to look one way, and you get punished when it doesn’t,” O’Brien wrote in the piece, which appeared in The Advocate, a national magazine for the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender communities.
Joey Carrillo, a gay student at Elmhurst College in suburban Chicago, remembers trying to be as masculine as possible in high school. He hid the fact that he was gay, particularly around other athletes. As a wrestler, he says he never wanted to hear someone say, “Oh, THAT’S why he wrestles.”
In fact, though more gay and lesbian athletes are coming out in college, gay male professional athletes in major sports have waited to do so until they have left their sport, one of the more recent being Robbie Rogers, an American soccer player who played professionally in England. There have been reports that gay male athletes who are currently playing may be on the verge of going public.
But women have already done so with little backlash.
U.S. soccer star Megan Rapinoe, for instance, came out right before she played in last year’s Olympics. WNBA star Seimone Augustus and the league’s No. 1 draft pick, Brittney Griner, are some of the more recent female athletes to follow suit.
In Hollywood in recent years, both openly gay men and lesbians have had successful careers. And when it comes to television and movies, it appears there are more high-profile gay male characters.
Still, while many see the two dads on the “Modern Family” sitcom as groundbreaking, others have a sense that the societal discomfort with gay men as parents is at the root of many of the jokes.
“A good portion of that is for comedic effect,” says Don Todd, a 32-year-old father in a two-dad family in Orange, Calif. He doesn’t think most people would think it was as funny if the characters were two moms.
Herek, the researcher at UC-Davis, has, in fact, found in surveys that heterosexuals think lesbians would be better parents than gay men.
Nancy Dreyer, a mother in a two-mom family, has noticed this in her own life.
“With gay male friends of ours who have kids, people will say, ‘My gosh, who takes care of this baby?’ — as if they’re not capable,” says Dreyer, whose 57 and lives in suburban Boston.
The assumption, she says, is that men aren’t nurturing. And if they’re too nurturing, she says, people get suspicious, noting that no one has ever questioned her and her partner about their ability to raise their son, who’s now in college.
She’s noticed the different ways society treats gay men and lesbians, partly because she has a brother, Benjamin Dreyer, who’s gay. The Dreyer siblings say it’s difficult to compare their experiences because Benjamin came out in college, and Nancy in her early 30s.
So he was the first to tell their parents. “They yelled at me. They took you to dinner,” Benjamin Dreyer, who’s 54 and works in publishing in New York City, now jokes with his sister.
Truth was, as a young gay man coming of age as the AIDS epidemic took hold, his parents simply worried, and with good reason, his sister says.
There’s little doubt, they both say, that AIDS influenced the perception of gay men.
Benjamin Dreyer says he dealt with societal bias by avoiding it, and surrounding himself with people he knew would be supportive, including his parents, eventually.
But he’s also realizing how quickly the need to do that is disappearing. He was surprised and pleased, for instance, when he attended his nephew’s high school graduation last year. There, he saw a gay male graduate with his boyfriend, open and accepted by all his peers.
“It’s mind-boggling,” Benjamin Dreyer says. “It’s wonderful.”
Carrillo, too, decided to live openly when he arrived at Elmhurst College. He joined a fraternity and even painted a rainbow — a common symbol of the gay community — on his fraternity paddle. To his surprise, there was some backlash from a couple of his straight fraternity brothers who feared people would think their fraternity was the “gay fraternity.”
“There’s a long way to go,” says Carrillo, who graduates next month. But he still feels hopeful.
“Honestly, I see it — everywhere there’s progress.”