Do you consider Maryland and Virginia southern states?
Please explain why or why not. Thanks.
Virginia most definitely - capitol of the confederacy, first real Southern accents you encounter when driving south, more Republican etc. Maryland is weird, starting with the Bawlmer accent, which is kind of northeastern but kind of southern. It is the transitional state.
Virginia, definitely. It was one of the major slave holding states and stronghold of the Confederacy. Maryland no, because of John Waters.
No, they''re mid-atlantic states.
I''m a Yankee by birth but currently living in California. Perhaps that affects my answer. To me, any state that was part of the Confederacy is The South. So Virginia is southern and Maryland is not.
They were both slave states.
I''ve lived in northern Virginia my whole life and know the DC metro area well. Maryland is not a southern state, but Virginia is - even no. Va. is pretty southern. DC is kind of southern.
Yes. Both. Besides the history, listen to the accents.
Maryland is a southern state though like Virginia, the growth of DC suburbs mutes the character. The North would not allow Maryland to secede for strategic reasons (look at a map), but the people probably would have if they were free to choose.
If You drive from D.C. to Baltimore, it feels like you are in an East Coast City.%0D\
Drive across the Potomac River to Virginia and it feels like you are in a Southern City.%0D\
This is what makes Washington D.C. such a great city!
Yes to both. Everything below the Mason-Dixon line is the south with the exception of DC.
Maryland no, it''s mid-Atlantic
[quote]The North would not allow Maryland to secede for strategic reasons (look at a map), but the people probably would have if they were free to choose.%0D\
Not so. Of the Marylanders who enlisted and fought in the civil war, 77% enlisted with the union.
Today, it''s "Northern" on the DC - Baltimore corridor but the rest of the state is still Southern. It''s below the Mason-Dixon Line.
VA yes, MD no.\
We didn''t trust MD then and still do not.
The Confederate States of America
Of course Virginia is SOuthern. It is the capital of the Confederacy. The governor even recognizes Confederate History Day. Maryland WAS a Southern state for most of American history. It arguably still IS.
They''re both states full of Yankees. I have cousins who live Virginia, and their teenage children have those awful nasal Yankee voices. Of course, Maryland isn''t even worthy of discussion.
the gulf coast
says r16 with his plummy smoker''s cough buffeting the fad pads around his neck and parotids.
I think Virginia, Maryland, DC and maybe North Carolina could be considered Mid-Atlantic states. They really have no relation, culturally, to states likes Alabama and Mississippi, etc.
Amongst us real Virginians, it''s when you cross the Rappahanock River that....."the south be gins."
I''m from Maryland. I don''t know of anyone from there who considers themselves to be Southern, whereas parts of Virgina still wave their Confederate flags on their mudflaps proudly.
I can''t remember the last time I gave the issue any thought, really.
I have to disagree with R6: NoVa (as in the D.C. suburbs) is definitely *not* Southern, but the southern part of the state most certainly is. Southwestern Virginia is as backwater hick-filled as any rural part of Georgia or Alabama. Plus, as noted, Virginia was essentially the center point in the Confederacy, even if its capital was originally in Alabama. That said, being part of the Confederacy doesn''t automatically make a state "Southern," otherwise Missouri and Texas would fit the bill.\
Maryland is in no realistic way Southern. I think a more interesting argument can be made for Kentucky being a Southern state, even though it abuts the very industrial and Midwestern Ohio and Indiana.
When I lived in Virginia I always heard "Below the James lies Dixie. Made sense to me.
Maryland, with the exception of parts of the extreme west, no.\
Virginia, yes, although most of Northern Virginia is not, no is the corridor along I-64 between Richmond and Virginia Beach.
The Voice of the Night
Lived in Arlington and now live in Maryland (went to school and now work in DC). Being an Asian American from L.A., it does feel a bit different whenever I start going past the northern part of VA.
Maryland no, Virginia yes. The bigotry of Marylanders pales in comparison to the bigotry of Virginians.
I consider Virginia a southern state because it is a southern state.\
I consider Maryland a northern state because it is a northern state.\
Both have diverse histories and cultures, overlaid with late 20th and early 21st century American consumerist trash culture. \
Coastal Maryland is similar in parts to coastal Virginia, but it is not southern.\
My Maryland ancestors had slaves, but that does not make the southern; so did New Yorkers. \
The western parts of the states are different but still are southern for Virginia and northern for Maryland.\
Calling them mid-Atlantic does not answer the question.\
I''ve lived in both...I consider Maryland a northern state and Virginia a southern state. One has a northeast feel to it and the other is full of backwoods rednecks. I loathe Virginia.
Girls, the Mason-Dixon line is the division between north & south. You may not just make up your own definitions willy-nilly.
Lovely accents and seriously delicious foods
Fuck you R16. Maryland is a great place to live.
If the Mason-Dixon line defines the South, is Cape May, NJ a Southern City?
Virginia yes, Maryland No.
Virginia is self-consciously southern. Maryland is not, but it has a history as a slave state, as does Delaware. Really, you can''t go by the Civil War in these things. Kentucky gave 3 volunteers to the Union for every 1 to the Confederacy and you couldn''t find a more backward southern state today.%0D
I''m in the Virginia yes, Maryland no camp.
Similarly one Yankees held power in Missouri but now no fucking way. the South has completely captured Oklahoma and much of Kansas might as well be southern. W VA seceded from Virginia but only Wheeling is Yankified today.
[quote]you couldn''t find a more backward southern state today.\
[quote]it has a history as a slave state\
The whole country has a slavery-based history.\
I know education isn''t a priority in the country but there are some basic facts we really ought to know, by now.
[quote]The whole country has a slavery-based history. I know education isn''t a priority in the country but there are some basic facts we really ought to know, by now.\
While you''re correct, you probably should''ve also mention the basic fact of how badly we fucked over Native Americans -- who as a whole received VASTLY worse treatment than African slaves did (and in the Southwest and West, some Native Americans were forced to become slaves themselves). While obviously being a slave was no fun, at least they weren''t subjected to veritable genocide like many Native Americans were. There aren''t any firm numbers on the total killed over the course of nearly 400 years, but approx. 130,000 were killed over a 20-year period in California alone between 1850 and 1870. The first massacre happened all the way back in 1539, for fuck''s sake! (Spanish explorers killed about 200 Timucuan warriors)
I consider anthing south of Battery Park to be southern
Nice diversion, R39.
In short, the south has EXPANDED...except in Maryland and Delaware.
Consider them "southern"??? Hell, I don''t even consider them part of the US!
Well Maryland has been transformed by the D.C suburbs, so it''s not quite as gentile and southern as it may have once been. Lincoln won 2% of the vote in 1860 in Maryland so attitudes have changed. Parts of Virginia i would say are southern, but even Virginia isn''t as southern as it once was. Both Mid-Atlantic i would say.
In the early and mid-19th century, Maryland identified with Southern states. People of Maryland did not identify with New York, New England, etc. Maryland thinking was far removed from the whole northeast.%0D\
I was just listening to Adam Goodheart on NPR. He''s the author of "The Civil War Awakening" the newest book on that war. In discussing one person he stated, "He was a Marylander, therefore a Southerner at heart."
[quote]The North would not allow Maryland to secede for strategic reasons (look at a map)\
The North would not allow any states to secede. That''s why we had a civil war, dum dum.\
Maryland did not secede from the Union because, at the secession convention that was called to decide the question, the delegates voted overwhelmingly against it.
More battles were fought on VA soil than any other state. It''s southern
Northern Virginia (i.e. the DC suburbs) are not "Real Virginia"
I live in Maryland- it was a slave state for a longer time than many other states. Marylanders on the Eastern Shore are very Southern in their ways and manners-that's true in Delaware as well. Virginia is the crown jewel of the South. But I believe that Maryland would have fought the good fight for the Cause. The president even had the Mayor of Baltimore and some of his followers arrested as the war started. If the Capitol had stayed in New York- Maryland being a Southern state wouldn't be an issue. We were a slave state and would have fought to keep our slaves.%0D
One of the problems with Baltimore is that many of its black population still have a slave mentality. They think they are inferior, socially removed, and unwanted in the the white community. Many think that speaking proper English is being white. And many never think outside of the city limits.%0D
R39- What happened to the American Indian in this country is repugnant. But American history is littered with repugnant acts towards Indians, black slaves, white women, Chinese railroad workers,Japanese American during WWll,Mormons,the Irish, and Mexcians. No one act is worst than another. That way of thinking smells of bigotry itself.%0D
[quote]But I believe that Maryland would have fought the good fight for the Cause.\
You are free to believe whatever you like, but don''t confuse your fantasy with well-established facts.\
Maryland was a border state that decided, after several close skirmishes (Antietam, et al) hit very close to home, that it did not want fighting on its soil.\
It didn''t agree with forcing the Confederate states to remain in the Union, but it also did not want to join them. Maryland wanted to stay in the Union. The governor of the state was opposed to secession, and the State Legislature voted overwhelmingly against it.\
[quote]We were a slave state and would have fought to keep our slaves.\
No. The Emancipation Proclamation did not apply to Maryland. The state abolished slavery of its own free will and accord in 1864.\
As for the grassroots in Maryland, their loyalties can be judged according to which army they signed up with. And by a ratio of 2:1, Maryland men signed up with the Union.
[quote]Northern Virginia (i.e. the DC suburbs) are not "Real Virginia"\
Loudon and Fairfax Counties have the greatest concentration of wealth in the United States.\
The Voice of the Night
They only think they do VOTN
Except for everything on the other side of Charlottesville, Virginia is about as southern as Massachusetts. Virginia is even, more or less, a purple state now. It went for Obama in 08, the state house is republican, but the state senate is democratic. It has some of the best public schools in the country.
The Mason-Dixon line is just south of the Gettysberg battlefield, so technically part of Pennsylvania is in the South...at least by some people''s standards.
Wrong, R52. I live in Northern Virginia and VOTN is 100% correct. I think it''s because the DC area has one of the strongest job markets in the country. People with families don''t want to live in the city, Maryland (this is honestly how some people here think) has too many minorities, so a lot of the wealth gravitates toward Virginia. Loudon and Fairfax are about as far as one should go if they don''t want to spend most of their day in traffic, so they tend to collect people with good incomes. \
Fairfax is hell on earth. The homes are pretty generic, but they''re noticeably larger than most in the area. Loudon County is pretty nice, it''s just out of the way. I''m content living in the smallest county in the U.S., as opposed to the richest.
And the border between Delaware and Pennsylvania isn''t exactly where it''s supposed to be either.\
The point is, there are varying degrees of "South." I would argue that neither Virginia nor North Carolina are quite part of the same "Solid South" block of old.
The Voice of the Night
Thanks for that photo r55. It''s one of my favorite streets in the U.S.
[quote]Maryland (this is honestly how some people here think) has too many minorities,\
If you want to get technical, it''s that there are too many of the "bad" minorities (African-Americans and Latinos) in Maryland, but huge populations of "good" minorities (Asian and South Asians) in NoVA.
The Voice of the Night
Well, I was TRYING not to get technical (I''m pretty tired of the race-baiting that''s been occurring at a higher than average frequency around here), but yeah, you''re right. \
I know people who live in nice areas of Prince George''s County (yes, they exist), yet everyone assumes the whole county is rundown. Meanwhile, there are places in my well-to-do city/county (Arlington) which are pretty scary. Hell, I was even surprised to find out that there''s a ghetto within walking distance of Old Town Alexandria.
It makes me kind of sad that there are now ''good'' minorities and ''bad'' minorities. What group are we gays in?
[quote]What group are we gays in?%0D\
We''re the "fabulous" minority.
[quote]Well, I was TRYING not to get technical (I''m pretty tired of the race-baiting that''s been occurring at a higher than average frequency around here), but yeah, you''re right. \
You''re right, of course. It''s just always surprised me that in the Greater DC area, on both sides of the Potomac, in what I imagine has to be one of the most diverse populations in the US, is so damned segregated.\
Of course, I grew up in Lynchburg. There are four parts of town: White Trash, Old Money, Yankee Transplant, Minority.\
I''m also probably a hypocrite, because if I worked in DC, I''d love to live in some place like Great Falls or out on the Northern Neck.
The Voice of the Night
[quote]It makes me kind of sad that there are now ''good'' minorities and ''bad'' minorities. What group are we gays in?\
I should state here that that is not my personal view, it''s just how I think certain right-wing (and probably more than a few left-wing) types thing. A recent example was Sharron Angle''s declaration that she thought a group of Latino voters she was speaking with looked Asian. One of the reasons why you shouldn''t necessarily bet against Harry Reid was that he immediately told a crowd at a campaign stop that he just thought they looked like Nevadans.\
Gays...well, I think we''re the favorite of straight liberals, but among right-wingers, we''re barely above the contempt for immigrants and Muslims.\
Of course, within our community, the only two options often seem to be either totally segregating ourselves, or fetishizing it.
The Voice of the Night
VA state government is one of the most rightwing in the nation.
I consider them abomi nations.
[quote]VA state government is one of the most rightwing in the nation.\
Our Governor is ineffective, and our Attorney General is a moron, but I think we''d have to get in line behind Arizona, Texas, Wisconsin, Ohio, and Michigan at the bare minimum.
The Voice of the Night
Some of the finest bottoms in the US of A reside there
[quote]some Native Americans were forced to become slaves themselves%0D\
Some Native Americans forced other Native Americans to become slaves to their tribe. Just because we now have a view of the white man vs. the Native Americans, we seem to overlook the wars and hatred between the various tribes.
Virginia, absolutely; Maryland, no, even though they pronounce "insurance" as "IN-shur-unss" down there. But they were on the North''s side in the Civil war.
I''m surprised pretty boy McDonnell has been such a dud. Well, not surprised, but he was supposed to be the Republican party''s Great White Hope.
[quote]I''m surprised pretty boy McDonnell has been such a dud. Well, not surprised, but he was supposed to be the Republican party''s Great White Hope.\
Yes, but he is possibly even stupider than George Allen, and that''s saying something.\
Of course, both of them are MENSA members compared to AG Ken Cuccinelli, who suggested that the Virginia National Guard refuse federal money so they wouldn''t have to abide by the DADT repeal.\
The one good thing about Cuccinelli is that he''s desperate to be governor himself, and that will never, ever happen.
The Voice of the Night
This is easy ...Mason Dixon line is above MD so VA, DC and MD are southern by definition...
I''m such a Yankee I consider Pennsylvania to be a southern state.
It''s a midland state, like Ohio.
Reason vs romanticism
FLORENCE KING. The Spectator. London: Apr 23, 2011.
The American South? You don't know the half of it
Stand by. I am going to exp la in the American South, a subject that makes the quantum theory seem like child's play. The first thing you must understand is that there is no South - there are two. One is the Upper South of horses, tobacco and Episcopalians; and the other is the Deep South of mules, cotton and Baptists.
The second thing is that there is no mid-South. It's a geographical term with no sociological undercurrents, used by climatologists and weather reporters to locate their own brand of undercurrents.
The Upper South in its purest form consists of Maryland and Virginia. Maryland is now described by weather reporters and political bean counters as 'mid-Atlantic' but it wasn't always thus. She was once a land of huge tobacco plantations, and what Lincoln's secretary of state called a 'hot bed of Secesh' that probably would have seceded had Lincoln not ringed Baltimore with cannon. His action led a Confederate sympathiser to write her state song, 'Maryland, my Maryland', played as background music in Gone With the Wind and containing lyrics now unofficially banned, e. g. : 'From shore to shore, from creek to creek, Potomac calls to Chesapeake/ 'Tis time to give the Rebel shriek/ Maryland, my Maryland!' Another verse contains a reference to Lincoln and another call to arms: 'The despot's heel is on thy shore/ Be the battle queen of yore!' Topping it all off is the final verse containing the line, 'Huzzah! She spurns the Northern scum!' If to be Southern is to be politically incorrect, Maryland beats all other Southern states hands down.
Maryland lost most of her Southern image after the Civil War, and just about all of it when Giant was filmed in 1956. In the Giant Giant Edna Ferber novel, the Liz Taylor heroine was the daughter of an old Virginia family but Hollywood moved them to Maryland, probably because they figured that as Maryland was no longer thought of as a Southern state, Taylor would not be required to do her flawed Southern accent, which in any case was (im)pure Deep South. It was just as well, because placing the sensuous Taylor in Virginia would have distorted the essence of the Upper South: it is not and never has been the South of the Southern belle. Never mind Sally Fairfax. She was said to have been George Washington's unrequited love, and her name certainly makes her sound like a belle, but she was an older married woman when he met her and, from what little we know about her, not given to flirting or teasing or causing trouble just for the hell of it. The Upper South was formed and developed in the 17th century and it is impossible to extract a belle from the Age of Reason. She is a product of the 19thcentury Age of Romanticism and her stamping ground is the Deep South, where she can also set fire to the house and lose her mind.
The Upper South woman is more like the English countrywoman in her preference for four-legged creatures. We have the 'horsey lady' and the 'doggy lady', who carry gooey, sticky things in the pockets of their ruined jackets. Her idea of a sexy image is not flouncing around in a hoop skirt - which in her case would probably have dried mud on it - but riding a horse through a hotel lobby like mad, bad Sally Ward of Kentucky did in the 1840s. She also tells jokes that unabashedly reveal her priorities, e. g. , an elderly woman on her deathbed tells her weeping family, 'Don't grieve for me. I'm going to meet General Lee! [trenchant pause] And Jesus.' Many in the Deep South would find this sacrilegious.
Many others would figure the teller had told it wrong, which probably explains why I heard somebody in Mississippi tell it with the names reversed. Incredibly, the audience laughed.
In addition to Maryland and Virginia, South Carolina is considered by many to be part of the Upper South thanks to the social and military primacy of the city of Charleston, its manners and mayhem. Charleston really is a classy burg; in the words of Margaret Mitchell: 'she had a deeply rooted belief that. . . most of the gentle blood of the whole continent could be found in that small seaport city, a belief shared largely by Charlestonians.' More over, both state and city are the teacher's pets of the Civil War. South Carolina was the first state to secede, and Charlestonians fired the first shot at Fort Sumter, the Union garrison in Charleston harbour.
It was fired by the Virginia-born Edmund Ruffin, an impassioned Confederate who, infuriated that Virginia was not the first state to secede, moved himself and his loyalties to South Carolina. The ever-polite Charlestonians invited him to man the first cannon and he let fly with a vengeance. Four years later, when he learned that Lee had surrendered, Ruffin wrapped himself in a Confederate flag and put a bullet through his head. We haven't heard the last of him. Civil War buffs in the Upper South are still arguing over whether he is a Virginian or a South Carolinian. The writer who identifies him as the former will be bombarded by mail from readers who object, and vice versa. It never ends.
Lost in this shuffle is the state of North Carolina, much larger than South Carolina and contiguous to Virginia but singularly unblessed by membership in the Upper South. It has plenty of tobacco but not a lot of horses or Episcopalians; it doesn't grow cotton, is not famous for mules, but it has Baptists galore. North Carolina simply fell between the slats and, there being no such thing as the mid-South, had to be called something else. The name that Virginia and South Carolina came up with is 'a desert between two oases'.
All of these distinctions are fading. The Deep South has the best novels and movies, so that is the South that the rest of America and the whole world knows best and wants more of.
The horsey lady and the doggy lady are fun but they can't compare to James Dickey's barbaric hillbillies, Truman Capote's creepy kids, or androgynes (like Tennessee Williams's Sebastian Venable) who are so sensitive that they have to be carried around on a velvet pillow and fed with an eye-dropper.
We are all Deep South Southerners now.
Simple, friendly America needs somebody to be gothic, so tag! We're it. I discovered just what is expected of me as a Southerner when I took part in one of those weekend seminars that colleges love to sponsor. The topic was:
'The Gothic Mall: Conflict and Duality in the New South'. I detected a whiff of attractionrepulsion hanging in the air that emerged full force in the question period, when a New York graduate student in sociology asked me:
'Are you presently tormented by anything, and if so, what?'
LOVE Florence King.\
For a riotously funny read, I recommend her SOUTHERN LADIES & GENTLEMEN.
I write a blog about southern ghosts and include Maryland in my geographic scope. The Mason-Dixon Line, usually considered the dividing line between north and south, is the line that separates Maryland from Delaware and Pennsylvania. \
Indeed, Maryland''s history is more southern as there were some in the state who sympathized with the Southern cause, yet Lincoln had a hand in keeping Maryland in the Union. But, for me, it still comes down to geography, it''s south of the Mason-Dixon line, so I count it. Plus, there are so many interesting hauntings in the state, I don''t want to ignore them.
We truly don''t give a shit. Everything east of Reno that''s not NY or New England is garbage. We don''t care about the Civil War -- other than the fact that the idiots lost and still can''t seem to deal with it. Sorry Colorado and Minnesota, you''re surrounded by them.
The Pacific Coast
I would have to say MARYLAND NO, VIRGINIA YES. I grew up in MD. I always viewed Virginia license plates as southerners. Washington DC area, where I grew up was totally Union. All Civil War monuments and statues are tributes to Union generals and hero's. It's Union territory! Im sure if you go to Richmond, all memorials and statues would be that of confederates. I think most Marylanders joined the union while fewer percentage joined CSA. I think its only a small percentage of Marylanders that beat a dead horse about Maryland being a southern state. Not so. They use the Mason-Dixon line as word for their best argument as to why Maryland is southern, but little do they know that Maryland, which was once a southern colony extended up to present day Philadelphia. Mason Dixon line moved Maryland back a few clicks south. Also, the Mason Dixon line runs north to south separating Delaware, which is right next to Maryland. Mason Dixon line is not MASON DIXIE line. I cant stand how people think that this line is actually what separates the north from the south. I guess if you say it enough times, people believe it. Another argument of Marylanders wishing to be recognized as southerners is the fact that they mention that Maryland was a slave state, however, even the north had slaves. Maybe not on up till 1864 but Brooklyn, New York held slaves too. Geographically speaking, Maryland has the same latitude as southern New Jersey....A NORTHERN STATE without question. Baltimore lines up with Atlantic City NJ. Washington DC lines up with Cape May, NJ. Maryland enjoyed DUCK PIN bowling. Up in New England its CANDLE PIN bowling, traits unique in northern states and Canada. Ok, maybe parts of Maryland south have southern customs and dialects, but not in my area of Silver Spring as I remembered it. It's got more of a northern feel to it, never heard of gritz there. I can agree that Maryland is a mid-atlantic state, and so is Pennsylvania and Virginia and Delaware, NJ, and South Eastern NY. The climate is pretty much the same. I fail to see why Delaware gets away with this topic too. They seem to have closer ties geographically speaking to Eastern Shore in Maryland which is supposedly southern in customs and charm. And Kentucky? They seem definately southern to me, and definately further south than MD.
R82? You were educated in Maryland, yes? Then this is how I know Maryland's a southern state: "...statues are tributes to Union generals and hero's."
I used to give people this example of how you can tell the southern states from the northern. As you enter MD from the south, there's a sign adorned with a black-eyed susan that says something like, "Welcome to Maryland -- Please Drive Gently." The next sign says, "We care about your safety, and it's our law: please wear your safety belt."
When you cross the border to Pennsylvania, however, you are greeted by an orange sign depicting a finger pointing at you that says "YOU SLOW DOWN." Following that is a sign that lists the speeding fines for various rates of high-speed driving. Only after that is a sign that says, "Welcome to Pennsylvania."
Get it now?
I was taught that - originally anyway - any state with a Christian female name on it (from Mary to Ana) was a southern state.
PA born and bred here.
If it's south of the Mason-Dixon line, it's the SOUTH.
End of discussion.
I've always considered Virginia southern, but never Maryland. Don't kow why that is. It's not based on logic, it's just an impression I've always had.
Maryland was a slave state. They voted against secession under army threat. Lincoln had to pass through Baltimore in disguise to get to DC. On the other hand, founded as a Catholic ghetto, it was always against the dominant Protestant ethic of the South and has never been run by born agains.
Maryland also had a different attitude towards government and civic improvements, building canals and railroads in a way that was anathema to Virginians and the rest of the South with their antigovernment ideology. That 77% of Marylanders who enlisted went north is not that consequential because the Confederacy never controlled any of it (of more significance is the fact that 75% of Kentuckians went north).
What has happened since the Civil War is that the South has expanded. Oklahoma is Southern now, Kansas southern-influenced even though Yankees were a large majority in Civil War days, Missouri is now mostly southern in feel except St. Louis and KC, Kentucky is southern, and West Virginia, which seceded from Virginia to join the north, is all southern except for Wheeling, which is a virtual suburb of Pittsburgh. Parts of Illinois and Indiana are very southern too, and Pennsylvania, while not southern, has a similar regard for tradition.
Of course, the extent to which W. Va was north oriented back in the 1860s was perhaps a bit exaggerated - but the Wheeling people had more power then.
Delaware and Maryland are a bit of an exception. Partly, that's because the post Civil War Victorian Yankeefication operated much strongly on the seaboard than in say, Louisville. Even Richmond now strikes one as a Yankeefied, Victorian city, and its business culture is more Pittsburgh than Atlanta. Virginia in general, however, has maintained its southerness. Delaware, despite not being Confederate, has remained very agricultural and southern outside the Wilmington area.
Maryland is the problem. The eastern shore is southern and so is the Appalachian area around Cumberland. The question is, what about the bulk of it. It is not Baptist and "Dixie" rarely appears in business titles. It is more gay and government friendly than the South, in general. And yet, and yet. The accent is southern, the diet is southern, the aesthetic sensibility and class relations are southern (think Louis Rukeyser), and the business community has a southern arrogance and conservatism. Tradition is everything, and Maryland maintains its lacrosse obsession, its fox hunts, even jousting tournaments, and its clubs which discriminate. It even maintains Mardi Gras type celebrations (although admittedly Philadelphia does too).
So in sum I'd say Maryland shares the Sir Walter Scott silliness of the South, but unlike New Orleans, which is a barely tolerated misfit in the South, Maryland has experienced enough Southern rejection to be attached to the North. In short, it is a Northern land with southern sensibilities.
I live in Virginia, Virginia and Maryland have changed ALOT in history. Virginia used to be in the condederacy and so did Maryland but after its over, they have a line to divide the north and the south. Above the line (Virginia, Maryland) broke away from the south and below (North Carolina and westward) had slaves. Its a myth the Mason Dixon divides the north and the south. The Carolina line, 36 degrees north, goes across the whole US. Virginia and Maryland are actually mid atlantic though
It is not a matter of opinion, they are Southern states, but not rednecked like the deeper south.
[R18], I'd say politically "the northeast" can be said to extend as far as the NC Triangle by now.
Maryland is south, but not The South. No one from The South considers Maryland to be a southern state.
You almost have to bring up race to answer this question.
In Maryland and DC, a lot of the black citizens are close to their Southern roots, mostly from North Carolina, and have slightly Southern accents. But most white Marylanders have northern roots and have northern accents. However, I've heard southern accents in southernmost rural Maryland. In DC and Montgomery County you rarely hear a southern accent from a white person. Baltimore's crazy accent is unique and has elements of southern accent mixed with a Brooklyn accent. Welcome to Bawlmer, Hon!
In Virginia, both black and white are mostly Southern though there are an awful lot of northern transplants in Northern Virginia. You can go all day in northern Virgina without hearing a southern accent.
Silver Spring, Maryland, is now almost 100% Hispanic, so it's neither northern or southern.
[quote]When I lived in Virginia I always heard "Below the James lies Dixie. Made sense to me.
Yet I feel only a Southerner could use that phrasing.
Hasn't Maryland always been a largely Catholic state, while the South is mostly Protestant except for Cajun country? Culturally, the cooking and traditions of white Marylanders have always been decidedly northern. Most black Marylanders seem to be a nice blend of northern and southern culturally speaking.
R92 is right. I grew up in Atlanta and we always considered Maryland the North.
Of course,if yu look at a map, Virginia, WVA and Kentucky are all in the northern half of the US.
In the civil war, Maryland was a "border" state (as was Kentucky), and Virginia was the capital of the south.
So no Md and yes Va
These days I consider any red state "confederate" as I feel if states like Oklahoma and Arizona existed in the 1800s, they would have been slave states.
I am a Marylander, born and raised, and we are south-east. We are not Southern. You don't even here the country accents until you go further south, towards DC and Virginia.
That is, "hear" the country accents.
Anything below the Mason-Dixon line is considered the South. (BTW, it's from Mason-DIXON that the South gets the name Dixie).
The Mason-Dixie line is the state boundary between Pennsylvania and Maryland; hence, politically Maryland is considered a Southern State.
Marylanders have a weird accent, sort of Philadelphia mixed with Alabama.
Cut off everything west of Charlottesville and Virginia is more or less Massachusetts.
I think one of the ingredients missing in these considerations is the Black/African American influence on culture without which a "Southern culture" is impossible, the Black "culture" and Southern culture are inextricably mixed. Black people living in the North for generations very often affect Southern speech and slang. That said, Maryland's Black population is over 28% of the total while Virginia's is scarcely 20%. The nearest Northern state, Pennsylvania has barely 9% of its population identifying as Black. I think if anyone cares to do some research one will find that in order to keep Maryland in the Union during the Civil War, Lincoln had to rely on the military to "encourage" the state government to reject secession. I'm not certain if it meant martial law being declared in Maryland or not. Bruce Catton the Civil War historian said that all the "border" states had to be dealt with each in a unique way peculiar to that state which included Missouri, Kentucky (both of which had nominal representation in the Confederate Congress), West Virginia (seceded from Virginia and was admitted to the Union in 1863), Delaware and Maryland. Today Maryland can easily be called part of the Middle Atlantic states albeit with a few Southern overtones, especially in the more rural southeastern and Eastern Shore counties (Calvert and St. Mary's counties are predominantly Catholic to this day, which is why Maryland was founded, as a haven for English Catholics). Virginia is a Southern state albeit a "mavricky" one compared to the rest of the old Confederacy and sometimes the border states. It has gone for Obama, surprisingly, both times albeit much of that was Black and transplanted Northern vote. It contains the Confederate capitol at Richmond and has more cultural references to being "Southern" than Maryland does. Virginia is thought of at least historically as the more "cultured" state of the old Confederacy (8 presidents, starting with Washington and including Thomas Jefferson) and better educated if William and Mary is any long term indication from the colonial days. Just as a point of trivia, of all the seceded states of the old Confederacy, Virginia is the only one that officially abolished corporal punishment in its public schools whether or not that is a good or bad thing.
[quote]Marylanders have a weird accent
No we don't
MD and Virginia are historically more Southern than Florida is.
However, as of today: MD is more culturally Northern & VA is more culturally Southern. Dc is the mid-point. Anything past DC is the South to me.
My cousin's children, who live in Richmond, sound like Yankees. And my cousin and her husband are from the deep South--and sound like it.
In Virginia, the only parts that aren't southern are parts of Fairfax, Alexandria and Arlington. If you go any further than that, you start seeing horses and cows and other southern things, such as KMarts (whatever those are!). Ick.
Yes. Very southern.
About half my ancestors lived in those two states beginning in approximately 1640.
The Englishmen went to Virginia. The French and Germans went to Maryland. They all later ended up in Central Kentucky, which is a lot like the Tidewater in the preoccupations of the wealthy.
I was taught that Virginia's early European residents were mostly landed or middle class English and the people they brought over to work for them, but that Maryland was a lot more diverse from the beginning. (As was North Carolina - lots of early German immigration.)
Vagina a southern state.
Maryland: only in terms of the weird accent, where they pronounce "insurance" as "INsurance."
[quote]Maryland: only in terms of the weird accent, where they pronounce "insurance" as "INsurance."
Which part of Maryland did YOU visit. I'm a Marylander, born and raised, and no one I've ever met says INsurance.
Two states with similar histories, social structure, and industries. Of course they are South. The only reason anyone imagines different is that people in the Washington area like to pretend they are in a more sophisticated place than the South.
But they aren't.
Maryland may change over time though. The U. has just joined the Big Ten!
Basically, te long and short of it is simple.. Marland is classified in the middle Atlantic states. If you look at a geography map Maryland is below the Mason Dixon line dividing the North and the south. hence it would be that MD and VA are in the South
[quote]Cut off everything west of Charlottesville and Virginia is more or less Massachusetts.
I've lived in Northern Virginia and apart from small pockets in Arlington and Alexandria, it does not resemble the Northeast at all, culturally or politically. It's still a very conservative state, and unlike Maryland, the immigrants in VA are mostly middle or upper middle class, so they tend to be very conservative also.
Like it or not they both are classified as Southern, but i can see why someone would call them Mid Atlantic.
No. Because they aren't.
Well, Virginia I will accept. But not Maryland.
Blacksburg is full of Yankees.
r102 the Missouri Compromise line is more accurate, culturally.